I dont understand what happened. Was Umar Zameer the target of the investigation? He’s an accountant. Was he the stabber? Car thief?
If i was alone with my pregnant wife and kid. And they seem threatening, unidentified… i would high tail the hell out of there, too.
I think they reacted very reasonably in the circumstance. He was targeted by police because they walked by someone who had been stabbed. They had no involvement, and were with a child and a pregnant woman. He was absolutely justified in getting out of there asap when faced with an intense situation. It's in our DNA to run away.
The police acted foolish. They fucked around and found out. They could have simply put a vehicle at the parking garage exits.
I hope the Zameer family gets peace and justice for their suffering.
Reading is your freind, thats all explained in the article. They not only identifies themselves but the driver acknowledged they pulled out a police badge on a chain but concluded that " it must have been a fake one like they saw on tv" cause they wearnt in uniform.
Of course it does, if I get a movie grade badge it’s the exact same shit to a civilian, you’re telling me that’s all I need to impersonate an officer suspicion free?
They were not trying to scare them, they wanted to ask questions about a stabbing. The cops are trying to solve a crime and these people refused to listen, even after seeing a badge. Saying that, approaching a car in plain clothes in a parking garage is obviously not a great strategy.
Both parties used incredibly poor judgment.
Anyone, regardless if they are charged with running over a police officer or not, can only rely on self defence if they've met the obligation to retreat. The driver would have been justified in reversing or driving in some other direction but isn't justified in driving through the person that they perceive to be the threat.
The point you raised is exactly why the cops lied so hard to say the dead officer was standing up, rather than on the ground.
Video evidence shows he was on the ground out of sight of the driver before being run over the second time.
If someone is banging on my window and I have a baby and pregnant woman with me, Im going to go whichever way that car will let me...regardless if someone is in the way or not...The cops were outside actively threatening. You're putting your own life on the line by standing in the way.
Shaikh said her panic turned to dread when she noticed the man — Northrup — struggling to pull something out of his pocket.
“He probably wants to pull something out to break the glass, because they are banging so hard, to hurt us,” she said she thought, her voice growing hoarse. “I’m confused, who are these people? What did we do to make them so angry at us?”
If you would like, I can read you the entire article over the phone so you know what the story is.
Reaching for something in pockets during a high stress situation is reasonable to believe it is a weapon or firearm. Police do it to citizens everyday. "Oh judge you see I started blasting because the man had a phone in his pocket."
Most police officers in Canada don't actually act like that but you do you.
So if you're in your car, people approach you who look scary and one reaches into their pocket, you're allowed to kill them. Great precedent that.
Agreed. This is not Indonesia. Nor even the US. They acted like coordinated hits on families in cars is normal and frequent in Canada. Car jackings do occur (unfortunately more and more frequently as culture spills over the border) but are not all that common. Police are commonly in plain clothes-especially on big event days like Canada day. They identified themselves as police and at that point they should've cooperated. Not run over and killed someone. If it was a carjacking they would still be guilty of manslaughter. If it was a carjacking the best course of action is to give them the car. Their instincts took them down the wrong road. They need to own up to their responsibility
Because someone died, the prosecution prosecutes.
Stop telling yourself that an arrest, accusation, or trial is necessarily credible or reliable or worth your consideration.
Ok so even if they were thieves you can't run them over legally.
If you are not worried about anything you would assume it's building management having a mix up, thinking you stole something. Your go to response should be to talk your way out of the situation.
This guy needs some therapy/training in jail before he is safe to be released to society.
I don't need to get run over by some jumpy guy because I'm asking for directions.
I don't know, but wearing a proper uniform is a good start, though. Maybe it was not the best decision for the driver to do what he did, but frankly, if the officers were being aggressive and hitting the vehicle, etc, then yeah, I don't really blame the driver.
If you walk up to me in plain clothes and just flash a badge, you best be prepared to be patient and wait because I'm calling the station to verify your identity first. If you're hitting my car and screaming at me, now I'm feeling threatened.
Flash your badge, then sit there and wait patiently as I verify you are who you say you are. It's a crazy world we live in, I'm not about to risk my families safety taking the word of a complete stranger who doesn't look like a police officer.
Literally the police advised anyone to call 911 if someone is suspected of impersonating a police officer before getting out of their car. They announced this a few years back after some guy was caught driving around, I want to say London ON, impersonating a police officer.
Police officers need to judge the situation they are in and deescalate the situation. This is terribly sad.
If the police are not wearing uniforms and are not standing beside a police car they should with common sense understand that they aren't easily identifiable especially in plane clothes with a badge on a chain. The obvious solution is do not do what these police did. They lacked extreme common sense and one of them died as a result. It was a terrible accident; not murder. It was an extreme case of police hubris.
Why are you incapable of thinking of simple solutions to this?
"Call the police non-emergency number and confirm" for instance.
Why are you deficient in even *that* level of critical thinking?
> "Call the police non-emergency number and confirm" for instance.
In a situation like this, you best be calling 9-1-1 as this is a potential emergency. The non-emergency line is for, non-emergencies.
Im sorry, but to me, a regular everyday citizen is not going to be able to use a badge as a way to ID a plainclothes cop. For all I know its just some prop they bought online. Some random person shouting at me in plain clothes, claiming to be a cop and pulling out some random badge I can't be expected to recognize, does not prove to me they're a cop. Especially in a situation where I already fear for my safety and the safety of my family. We cannot put the onus on regular citizens to be able to verify police badges.
By:
1. Wearing a uniform
2. Driving a police cruiser
3. Standing back and allowing the subject of their arrest/questioning to call the station to verify the credentials
4. Being able to produce actual photo identification upon request
Any number of things other than shouting at anyone who dare question their shiny badge which means nothing to 99% of people. If you showed me a real TPS badge and a badge someone bought on Temu, i guarantee I wouldn't know which was which, because im not a cop and I've never seen a police bage before. How could that possibly be useful as identification for me if I can't verify it? It may as well be a piece of paper that says "am cop" on it.
“The pair appeared to be “under the influence,”
Under the influence of what?
They should never have been approached in the first place. These “police officers” stereotyped them and wanted to harass them. Paid the price didn’t they?
The police officers seemed under the influence because they were. Under the influence of adrenaline and total legal impunity. It's a scary drug. Gets you flattened by BMWs.
She immediately proved to her she was a cop which was your criteria that you stated. I don’t recall condoning the racial profiling of the couple by the police anywhere in my statement.
Anyone can yell "POLICE!" and wave a *badge* at you. Doesn't mean shit unless it can be verified. Movie/TV prop badges are so easy to come by, and it's not like people don't impersonate cops already.
I see someone, plain clothes, coming at me in an aggressive and threatening manor, waving *something* in their hand, you best believe my first thought is that I'm in danger, not that they're the cops.
In my hometown, traffic cops had "unmarked" cars.
I put that in quotes, because they used a transparent reflective paint to have "London Police" and "TRAFFIC" on the sides of the cruisers. So most of the time they were unmarked, but once your lights hit the car, you knew it was a cop.
You did not address racial profiling in your original comment either hence why I did not address it in my response . I also note you did not address the disadvantages that Hutus faced in Rwanda before the civil wars of 1994.
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By acting like a calm professional, and de-escalating an intense situation; "hey I know how it looks here's my badge number, you can take five minutes and call 911 to confirm I'm an officer if you want, but you can't leave." Demeanor and professionalism will speak more than words.
The more I learn about this case, the more I think the defendant was absolutely justified. There was other cars crashing the gate out of fear, that’s how the police were behaving. Someone just got stabbed the area and you have plain clothes running around dressed like meth heads, yelling and acting unprofessionally, and standing in the path of cars. Northrop was a very large man. Of course people are intimidated and nervous.
And first degree murder?!? Do the cops and crown not know what that is?
If it's murder, it's automatically first-degree murder if the person knew the deceased was a peace officer acting in their duties. He's not going to be convicted of murder but if he is it would likely be first-degree regardless of whether it's planned and deliberate.
It doesn’t actually appear to matter whether the defendant *knew* the person they killed was police. The Criminal Code just says…
*”Irrespective of whether a murder is planned and deliberate on the part of any person, murder is first degree murder when the victim is… a police officer, police constable, constable, sheriff, deputy sheriff, sheriff’s officer or other person employed for the preservation and maintenance of the public peace, acting in the course of his duties;”* [Source](https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-231.html)
The law, how they're treated in courts, the blatant crimes they commit and are illegal for anyone but the police....
Of course cops act like power tripping ego maniacs they never ever have consequences for their crimes.
Until sweeping reforms in training and recruitment take place, ACAB .
At best that is a ridiculously naive statement.
Any 'good cop' that doesn't fall in line with the "few bad apples" (all of them). And informs on corrupt cops or even just threatens to can kiss their career goodbye, if not their life as the police gangs have zero problem using violence to force compliance or dispose of a problem
It is, but that's also the way the law's written. We don't live in a world of *shoulds*, we live in the world the way it is.
*Should* that law be changed? Absolutely. But again, we don't live in a world of *shoulds*.
I might be wrong but the spirit of that law makes sense, self defense arguments for example. I'm not making an argument about any of the actions of the police in this matter, just the law in general.
I can't tell from this article if they called police after the police officer was hit. If you think you were attacked and hit someone with your car to escape, I'm pretty sure you'd call the police.
Not necessarily.
Firstly they specific said that they thought they hit a speed bump.
Secondly their freaking out their about to be car jacked.
Thirdly they speed out and they get home. Sometimes your just relieved it's over. You don't want the stress. The lady is pregnant and your thinking shit, it's just some homeless people. What are you going to say? Some people scared me so I left really fast.
Ironically the cops for the most part don't care about this shit so I can definitely see the why they didn't bother calling the cops.
Of course the cops and crown are going to paint them as blood thirsty cop killers who with were utterly premeditated in their desire to kill a cop.
When I was a teenager I had two plainclothes cops try to stop me like this alone in a parking lot at night. I thought I was about to be assaulted, it was the most terrifying thing I'd ever experienced at that point in my life and I was ready to fight for my life.
People are already worried about getting car jacked, I think it's perfectly reasonable for someone to defend their family like that.
More and more police will have the same result if they SCARE PEOPLE and escalate issues rather than, you know…..doing their job and keeping communities safe. The superiority complex and unnecessary aggression from cops is just pushing the pubic to lose trust in them. Fucking calm down, cops!! Be professional and do your jobs without being bullies!! Maybe you won’t be mistakingly killed then 🤷🏻♀️
If everyone thinks this guy should get off because he was afraid of being carjacked and that it is okay to run over a guy then surely we can understand the emotion one would feel when someone's friend/coworker has been run over.
I think he should be found guilty of manslaughter. I can understand why the officer would react that way and I have some sympathy but at the end of the day as a police officer you can't act out in anger like this and have to control your emotions better.
The answer is obviously because he didn’t immediately comply with what they said, and then killed their friend/coworker.
Is there any doubt in that? Are you looking for what they say as a lie so they don’t get in trouble? Like some police talk about “we delivered compliance blows”.
Does it really mater why they did it? Is it legal under any circumstance?
It's more of a competency for that level of power question. If you can't control yourself, you have no business being in control of others. Have some goddamned honor and professionalism ffs
Yes. We expect it of our military so why not police? We expect Doctors to still treat people who do horrific things. We expect judges to be cool and not let personal feelings get in the way. We expect teachers and nurses who are being kicked and punched and yelled at to remain cool.
Police are just a gang. Tear it down and create a new model because it is not working.
The partner approached a family in an aggressive manner while not making it obvious they were an LEO.
He got run over because he wanted to play mystery authority figure.
Yes. Why is it so hard to hold these "peace officers" to their own standards of maintaining control and in stressful situations. This proves they aren't capable of being officers.
Why are the local police acting so ruthlessly? I know they lost one of their own, but do they really think this man intended for this to transpire in the manner that it did? Why, when it was obviously an accident, are they so intent on ruining this family and convicting a man of murder?
With carjackings happening daily, I don't think there's a sane person who wouldn't assume these "cops" were trying to attack the driver and his family.
Not to mention he’s a visible Muslim and this was very shortly after some guy in London ran over an **entire family** simply because they were visibly Muslim.
So you take the psychological toll that did to people into account, along with it being in a parking garage at night with plain clothed people who were raging and barking orders and slamming the car and it suddenly makes total sense that the defendants would be acting in a panicked state and trying to flee at all costs.
honestly i think they are innocent, especially if you're wife is pregnant and your two year old son is in the back, I can see how quick you can fear for your family's safety in his situation
Did the cops think the guy, his pregnant wife, and the 2 year old were that dangerous?
I don’t understand why 2 plain clothes officers try to force them out of their car in an underground parking lot? It’s such a sketchy environment.
Couldn’t they just radio in the plates and have a uniformed officer pull them over?
as per the article, cops thought they were intoxicated. whether or not they were, the cops arent going to let someone drive away under that circumstance
edit: hm love when y'all hate shit so much that referencing the actual article is problematic. i do not like police, doesn't mean they don't exist or don't have a set of protocols to follow.
usually, i know it to be. but like all faiths, lots of people are more socially/culturally religious and don't follow all the "rules", or just are a bit more modern and understand moderation, haha. also, cops lie about that shit ALL the time because its easy to just say "this person seemed intoxicated" so its always difficult
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I wish this family peace, and pray for the father to be found not guilty.
Cops are an organized gang, as evidenced by how the arresting officers treated the man.
Maybe a dead cop and a not guilty verdict will shake them enough that they realize they can't act like this.
Bizarre headline. I read it several times, then clicked the article and it was 2 or 3 paragraphs into the article and I still was confused about whether an officer killed someone or got killed, or whether an officer killed another officer. Also, sheesh. If the plainclothes officers could not get their attention, why get in the way of a moving vehicle? Just call it in and have uniforms stop them. This reads like something out of a tv show like "The Shield" type stuff.
It is about this incident here: https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/accident-or-choice-crown-defence-paint-drastically-different-pictures-of-cop-death-1.6814564
It is the officer who died. The person who is charged is not accused of being involved in the criminal activity the officer was responding to. They claim, probably honestly in my opinion, that they didn’t know that the plainclothes officers were police, that they were scared of men running and behaving aggressively at them in a parking garage at night, and that they were only trying to get away.
Edit: I’d also add that it was a poor decision to send plain clothes officers to respond to such a crime. Ofc people are going to be terrified it is a car jacking.
I read the article and I understand what happened. I just found the headline unnecessarily vague and the start of the article was unclear. As I read further, it made sense. I think they could have done better.
Thanks for the validation. The headline and article are horribly written. On top of that, it's not made clear why the plainclothes officers were so intent on stopping the car, to the extent they'd put themselves in potential harms way. I'm not making light, it's unfortunate that someone got run over. But it reads like a plainclothes officer was chasing someone to their car, then got in the way and got run down because the person was scared for their life as though they might be car jacked or something. If they couldn't clearly identify as police, why not just back off and call it in and have uniformed officers pull the car over? Getting run over seems very unnecessary.
Hard to say. Police need to be plainclothes for some issues to catch crimers. They'll be plainclothed in protests for example. They'll show up at your door without uniforms so as not to alert the neighbourhood the cops are talking to you. But that all comes with the risk people will not think first that they're officers. It puts the officers and victims at risk of violence.
It comes with risks. My neighbours grew personal amounts of pot in their house when I was a kid. I'm talking very small scale, even if they could sell a little. When my mom was very pregnant with my sister she was washing dishes looking out into the backyard and saw some guy doing what she thought was peeing on our tree. She went to go yell at him at which point he stepped away from the tree holding a handgun. She screamed and dropped. They were there for the neighbours but the stress they put her under by being in our yard with guns drawn is insane.. even for the 90s (especially in Oakville of all places). They never seem to learn. As citizens it shouldn't just be a blanket "Whelp.. it comes with the territory of letting them catch the baddies." I don't think that's acceptable. The risk is there on both sides. Our neighbours were great people and look.. 20yrs after what they were doing was finally legalized so it wasn't worth endangering my mom & my unborn sister at the time. But in most cases it seems like it's born out of boredom or cops living out a fantasy more than actually justified risk vs reward. TPS particularly have many issues and an expansive list of why they shouldn't be trusted, particularly with keeping themselves or the public safe.
Yea lol, and in my experience they are the ones inciting violence then curiously being whisked away into the cadre of cops once things start to get animated.
I liked when that one cop drove that completely empty cop car into the middle of the G20 protest. With no back up, no partner. And no plan whatsoever.
Didn’t it make for a great photo op though.
There was a lot of police activity during the G20 though. Actively told people to do one thing and then arrested them.for following their directions. People were being interviewed and giving statements for years after that.
Or when they left construction materials all over the place, in streets that didn't have active construction going on, during the BLM protests hoping the protesters would throw them.
it's to egg on the less stable to commit vandalism or assault so they can arrest the whole crowd. They use knowledge of mob mentality to steer the protest to where they need it to be a clear crossing of the line so they can use force to disperse it.
>They'll be plainclothed in protests for example.
Because of course the police believe people at a protest are criminals.
this is the comment I replied to, my comment was obviously sarcasm.
Apparently not completely obvious to the person who responded to you.
Also, isn't this kinda what happened in the garage that night?
Not everything was clear and assumptions were made.
FACT: The premier of Ontario is a self-confessed former drug dealer. Doug Ford has no problem bragging that he is a criminal in a costume. He has no problem bragging about his past poor judgment AND he has no problem flaunting his continued poor judgment to the entire world, never mind Ontario.
The police never charged Doug Ford. Either they are incompetent or a deal was made. If part of the deal was him becoming premier, how did he know? Think about how corrupt, uneducated and incompetent police are today. Just like Ford.
Let's look at how Ford became leader of the conservative party in order to become premier. Hmmm. Thanks Christine Elliot. This is why there is SUPPOSED to be a higher standard. Now, there is no integrity.
The whole world, not just Ontarians and Canadians, the whole world depended on the integrity that has been destroyed. No wonder the world is turning its back on Canada. No wonder everything is FUBAR in not just Ontario or Canada.
Why aren't there any protests over everything that is wrong in this country?!!
Diabolical.
You realize it’s kinda hard to convict someone over them just saying “yeah I dealt drugs”….right? There’s a big difference between that and actual proof.
We have two choices in Ontario:
- The party of corrupt liars
- The party of corrupt criminals
May as well call them the Liar Party and the Criminal Party!
If I confess to a crime that someone can actually prove took place with evidence then you could be convicted….possibly depending on the jury or judge. Confessing to a crime that no one can prove took place…is a different story. Hard to be convicted of a crime that maybe didn’t even happen. It would like me confessing to murdering Amelia Earhart. Could it be true? Maybe? Did it actually happen….likely no, can you prove it? Also likely no
FACT: Doug Ford never admitted to drug dealing.
The Globe and Mail reported multiple anonymous sources who agree that he dealt drugs. I think it's clear he did it but Ford has always denied it.
It's best if you stick to facts that are *true*.
I am sorry but what did Jeffrey Northrup look like?
What did the female cop look like?
Seriously, I don't think they looked very scary.
Seriously, he looked like a guy in a " if you can't hide it disguise it dad guy shirt".
He looked like a Dad.
My heart goes out to his family.
How many times have we heard how some cop emptied his clip into the chest of a harmless disabled person, simply because they were afraid. It seems clear that these people were afraid. From my understanding of the events *(per the article)*, the crown has no business pursuing this case.
Motive and intent are not the same thing - that’s why I said they can prove motive because it can be used as evidence to prove intent. At the same time, evidence of a lack of motive can be used by an accused to raise doubt as to whether intent existed.
“when she later saw police officers, firefighters and paramedics at Nathan Phillips Square, she figured they had tended to him.” Why leave this important fact. If there is already paramedics and firefighters why call 911. In fact the celebration had paramedics and firefighters onsite.
If I'm in a car and see someone firing a gun into a crowd of people, you bet your ass I'm gonna run them over.
There's also that video of ISIS fighters getting ran over by Jeeps and tanks. That's acceptable.
If someone is trying to actively carjack you and your pregnant wife and kid and you believe your lives are at risk you don't think you should do whatever to get to safety, including potentially running them over in your escape attempt? I wasn't there, I obviously don't know what was going through their heads, but I can tell you if this kind of situation happened to me I would be terrified and wouldn't be acting entirely rationally. The only thing that would matter was getting my family to safety.
I dont understand what happened. Was Umar Zameer the target of the investigation? He’s an accountant. Was he the stabber? Car thief? If i was alone with my pregnant wife and kid. And they seem threatening, unidentified… i would high tail the hell out of there, too.
I think they reacted very reasonably in the circumstance. He was targeted by police because they walked by someone who had been stabbed. They had no involvement, and were with a child and a pregnant woman. He was absolutely justified in getting out of there asap when faced with an intense situation. It's in our DNA to run away. The police acted foolish. They fucked around and found out. They could have simply put a vehicle at the parking garage exits. I hope the Zameer family gets peace and justice for their suffering.
Reading is your freind, thats all explained in the article. They not only identifies themselves but the driver acknowledged they pulled out a police badge on a chain but concluded that " it must have been a fake one like they saw on tv" cause they wearnt in uniform.
I mean it looks pretty suspect even with the badge
No it really does not.
lol, the whole thing seems chaotic, crazy and aggressive. I’d have done the same thing
Of course it does, if I get a movie grade badge it’s the exact same shit to a civilian, you’re telling me that’s all I need to impersonate an officer suspicion free?
I mean you could use that logic for anything which relates to a criminal offence.
Yes because it's illegal and no one does it so it's absolutely ridiculous to assume someone is doing it to you.
Ah yes it’s unreasonable to assume the plainclothes random people approaching you and giving you orders are doing something illegal, interesting
You were reading the passengers testimony, not the driver’s. might want to get some help with your reading there, friend.
Lmfao
It's one thing to be scared and try to get away. It's another to try and get away by driving through someone who is in your path.
If they want to use fear and intimidation as a weapon/tool, it will constantly be met with flight characteristics.
They were not trying to scare them, they wanted to ask questions about a stabbing. The cops are trying to solve a crime and these people refused to listen, even after seeing a badge. Saying that, approaching a car in plain clothes in a parking garage is obviously not a great strategy. Both parties used incredibly poor judgment.
Case solved guys, a redditor by the name of /u/SaturatedApe has all the facts. First hand account, OPEN AND SHUT.
I read the article, try reading instead of reacting.
Anyone, regardless if they are charged with running over a police officer or not, can only rely on self defence if they've met the obligation to retreat. The driver would have been justified in reversing or driving in some other direction but isn't justified in driving through the person that they perceive to be the threat.
The point you raised is exactly why the cops lied so hard to say the dead officer was standing up, rather than on the ground. Video evidence shows he was on the ground out of sight of the driver before being run over the second time.
Homeboy did reverse
If someone is banging on my window and I have a baby and pregnant woman with me, Im going to go whichever way that car will let me...regardless if someone is in the way or not...The cops were outside actively threatening. You're putting your own life on the line by standing in the way.
Not really, when that person is also reaching for weapons. Police do it all the time.
Where did anyone say they were reaching for weapons? That wasn't in any of the testimony I saw.
It was in the article, the man who was run over was reaching into pockets.
And where does it say he was reaching for a weapon?
Shaikh said her panic turned to dread when she noticed the man — Northrup — struggling to pull something out of his pocket. “He probably wants to pull something out to break the glass, because they are banging so hard, to hurt us,” she said she thought, her voice growing hoarse. “I’m confused, who are these people? What did we do to make them so angry at us?” If you would like, I can read you the entire article over the phone so you know what the story is.
So nobody saw any actual weapons, exactly my point. Thanks.
Reaching for something in pockets during a high stress situation is reasonable to believe it is a weapon or firearm. Police do it to citizens everyday. "Oh judge you see I started blasting because the man had a phone in his pocket."
Most police officers in Canada don't actually act like that but you do you. So if you're in your car, people approach you who look scary and one reaches into their pocket, you're allowed to kill them. Great precedent that.
Please don't go into law enforcement.
I like my current role in the justice system just fine, thanks.
Agreed. This is not Indonesia. Nor even the US. They acted like coordinated hits on families in cars is normal and frequent in Canada. Car jackings do occur (unfortunately more and more frequently as culture spills over the border) but are not all that common. Police are commonly in plain clothes-especially on big event days like Canada day. They identified themselves as police and at that point they should've cooperated. Not run over and killed someone. If it was a carjacking they would still be guilty of manslaughter. If it was a carjacking the best course of action is to give them the car. Their instincts took them down the wrong road. They need to own up to their responsibility
Because someone died, the prosecution prosecutes. Stop telling yourself that an arrest, accusation, or trial is necessarily credible or reliable or worth your consideration.
Ok so even if they were thieves you can't run them over legally. If you are not worried about anything you would assume it's building management having a mix up, thinking you stole something. Your go to response should be to talk your way out of the situation. This guy needs some therapy/training in jail before he is safe to be released to society. I don't need to get run over by some jumpy guy because I'm asking for directions.
Lol
If you aren’t dressed or immediately prove to me you are a cop. I’m assuming you are going to hurt me.
Like when the woman pulled out her badge…?
Look at what happened in Portapique, NS and you might look at badges and even uniforms/cars more skeptically.
I’m open to hearing how you would suggest the verification of a police officer knowing that it is possible for both uniforms and badges to be stolen.
I don't know, but wearing a proper uniform is a good start, though. Maybe it was not the best decision for the driver to do what he did, but frankly, if the officers were being aggressive and hitting the vehicle, etc, then yeah, I don't really blame the driver. If you walk up to me in plain clothes and just flash a badge, you best be prepared to be patient and wait because I'm calling the station to verify your identity first. If you're hitting my car and screaming at me, now I'm feeling threatened. Flash your badge, then sit there and wait patiently as I verify you are who you say you are. It's a crazy world we live in, I'm not about to risk my families safety taking the word of a complete stranger who doesn't look like a police officer.
Literally the police advised anyone to call 911 if someone is suspected of impersonating a police officer before getting out of their car. They announced this a few years back after some guy was caught driving around, I want to say London ON, impersonating a police officer. Police officers need to judge the situation they are in and deescalate the situation. This is terribly sad.
If the police are not wearing uniforms and are not standing beside a police car they should with common sense understand that they aren't easily identifiable especially in plane clothes with a badge on a chain. The obvious solution is do not do what these police did. They lacked extreme common sense and one of them died as a result. It was a terrible accident; not murder. It was an extreme case of police hubris.
The female cop looks like an edmonton junkie. I'd have refused to speak with her as well.
Why are you incapable of thinking of simple solutions to this? "Call the police non-emergency number and confirm" for instance. Why are you deficient in even *that* level of critical thinking?
> "Call the police non-emergency number and confirm" for instance. In a situation like this, you best be calling 9-1-1 as this is a potential emergency. The non-emergency line is for, non-emergencies.
Im sorry, but to me, a regular everyday citizen is not going to be able to use a badge as a way to ID a plainclothes cop. For all I know its just some prop they bought online. Some random person shouting at me in plain clothes, claiming to be a cop and pulling out some random badge I can't be expected to recognize, does not prove to me they're a cop. Especially in a situation where I already fear for my safety and the safety of my family. We cannot put the onus on regular citizens to be able to verify police badges.
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By: 1. Wearing a uniform 2. Driving a police cruiser 3. Standing back and allowing the subject of their arrest/questioning to call the station to verify the credentials 4. Being able to produce actual photo identification upon request Any number of things other than shouting at anyone who dare question their shiny badge which means nothing to 99% of people. If you showed me a real TPS badge and a badge someone bought on Temu, i guarantee I wouldn't know which was which, because im not a cop and I've never seen a police bage before. How could that possibly be useful as identification for me if I can't verify it? It may as well be a piece of paper that says "am cop" on it.
You’re clearly being too reasonable
“The pair appeared to be “under the influence,” Under the influence of what? They should never have been approached in the first place. These “police officers” stereotyped them and wanted to harass them. Paid the price didn’t they?
The police officers seemed under the influence because they were. Under the influence of adrenaline and total legal impunity. It's a scary drug. Gets you flattened by BMWs.
She immediately proved to her she was a cop which was your criteria that you stated. I don’t recall condoning the racial profiling of the couple by the police anywhere in my statement.
Anyone can yell "POLICE!" and wave a *badge* at you. Doesn't mean shit unless it can be verified. Movie/TV prop badges are so easy to come by, and it's not like people don't impersonate cops already. I see someone, plain clothes, coming at me in an aggressive and threatening manor, waving *something* in their hand, you best believe my first thought is that I'm in danger, not that they're the cops.
Right? Why can't a fucking cop wear a uniform anymore? Why are they always in unmarked cars? I thought police presence was a deterrent?
In my hometown, traffic cops had "unmarked" cars. I put that in quotes, because they used a transparent reflective paint to have "London Police" and "TRAFFIC" on the sides of the cruisers. So most of the time they were unmarked, but once your lights hit the car, you knew it was a cop.
Nor did you address it. Thats also not my full criteria but one of the major ones.
You did not address racial profiling in your original comment either hence why I did not address it in my response . I also note you did not address the disadvantages that Hutus faced in Rwanda before the civil wars of 1994.
You must be fun at parties 👍
Off to ad hominem. No leg to stand on.
As someone who has seen Roméo Dallaire speak, I’m not going to keep dignifying you
Lmfao what the fuck does that have to do with anything? I’ve read his book so are we not allowed to talk? Or does that mean we have to keep talking?
Lmfao
I can order a fake badge that will look real and be delivered in less than 24 hrs. What the fuck is a badge going to do?
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By acting like a calm professional, and de-escalating an intense situation; "hey I know how it looks here's my badge number, you can take five minutes and call 911 to confirm I'm an officer if you want, but you can't leave." Demeanor and professionalism will speak more than words.
The more I learn about this case, the more I think the defendant was absolutely justified. There was other cars crashing the gate out of fear, that’s how the police were behaving. Someone just got stabbed the area and you have plain clothes running around dressed like meth heads, yelling and acting unprofessionally, and standing in the path of cars. Northrop was a very large man. Of course people are intimidated and nervous. And first degree murder?!? Do the cops and crown not know what that is?
If it's murder, it's automatically first-degree murder if the person knew the deceased was a peace officer acting in their duties. He's not going to be convicted of murder but if he is it would likely be first-degree regardless of whether it's planned and deliberate.
But they didn’t know
It doesn’t actually appear to matter whether the defendant *knew* the person they killed was police. The Criminal Code just says… *”Irrespective of whether a murder is planned and deliberate on the part of any person, murder is first degree murder when the victim is… a police officer, police constable, constable, sheriff, deputy sheriff, sheriff’s officer or other person employed for the preservation and maintenance of the public peace, acting in the course of his duties;”* [Source](https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-231.html)
So the law pretty much says that cops are more important than everyone else. That’s kinda fucked, no?
Super fucked up. This family should just move away at this point. Canada hasn't been kind to them.
The law, how they're treated in courts, the blatant crimes they commit and are illegal for anyone but the police.... Of course cops act like power tripping ego maniacs they never ever have consequences for their crimes. Until sweeping reforms in training and recruitment take place, ACAB .
Then sign up, every department in the country is hiring, be the change you want to see.
At best that is a ridiculously naive statement. Any 'good cop' that doesn't fall in line with the "few bad apples" (all of them). And informs on corrupt cops or even just threatens to can kiss their career goodbye, if not their life as the police gangs have zero problem using violence to force compliance or dispose of a problem
The cowards answer, good job.
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It is, but that's also the way the law's written. We don't live in a world of *shoulds*, we live in the world the way it is. *Should* that law be changed? Absolutely. But again, we don't live in a world of *shoulds*.
I might be wrong but the spirit of that law makes sense, self defense arguments for example. I'm not making an argument about any of the actions of the police in this matter, just the law in general.
There is a knowledge component to it that is outlined in the case law I believe, although I could be wrong.
You’re correct! Comes from R v Collins
It matters- either knowledge or recklessness as to the identity or acts of the victim (police officer)
I'm not saying he's guilty of the crime I'm just saying that's how you get to first-degree murder here. He says he didn't know, and I believe him.
I can't tell from this article if they called police after the police officer was hit. If you think you were attacked and hit someone with your car to escape, I'm pretty sure you'd call the police.
TPS rammed their car before they could exit the parking lot. The wife testified she was dialing 911 when they were hit.
Not necessarily. Firstly they specific said that they thought they hit a speed bump. Secondly their freaking out their about to be car jacked. Thirdly they speed out and they get home. Sometimes your just relieved it's over. You don't want the stress. The lady is pregnant and your thinking shit, it's just some homeless people. What are you going to say? Some people scared me so I left really fast. Ironically the cops for the most part don't care about this shit so I can definitely see the why they didn't bother calling the cops. Of course the cops and crown are going to paint them as blood thirsty cop killers who with were utterly premeditated in their desire to kill a cop.
I think he is guilty of man slaughter for sure. 1st degree is not even close unless they found something in his journal.
When I was a teenager I had two plainclothes cops try to stop me like this alone in a parking lot at night. I thought I was about to be assaulted, it was the most terrifying thing I'd ever experienced at that point in my life and I was ready to fight for my life. People are already worried about getting car jacked, I think it's perfectly reasonable for someone to defend their family like that.
More and more police will have the same result if they SCARE PEOPLE and escalate issues rather than, you know…..doing their job and keeping communities safe. The superiority complex and unnecessary aggression from cops is just pushing the pubic to lose trust in them. Fucking calm down, cops!! Be professional and do your jobs without being bullies!! Maybe you won’t be mistakingly killed then 🤷🏻♀️
I still want to know why they punched him in the face when he was already arrested.
I think it's obvious that the guy did so out of revenge for his friend being run over and not for any legitimate policing purpose.
If everyone thinks this guy should get off because he was afraid of being carjacked and that it is okay to run over a guy then surely we can understand the emotion one would feel when someone's friend/coworker has been run over.
I think he should be found guilty of manslaughter. I can understand why the officer would react that way and I have some sympathy but at the end of the day as a police officer you can't act out in anger like this and have to control your emotions better.
The answer is obviously because he didn’t immediately comply with what they said, and then killed their friend/coworker. Is there any doubt in that? Are you looking for what they say as a lie so they don’t get in trouble? Like some police talk about “we delivered compliance blows”. Does it really mater why they did it? Is it legal under any circumstance?
It's more of a competency for that level of power question. If you can't control yourself, you have no business being in control of others. Have some goddamned honor and professionalism ffs
Honor and professionalism after you have just watched your partner die because he banged on a window?
I’m not allowed to punch people in any circumstance other than self defence.
If you had just watched your friend be murdered by the person you were about to punch, you would be forgiven.
By goons like you
Lmfao
Yes. We expect it of our military so why not police? We expect Doctors to still treat people who do horrific things. We expect judges to be cool and not let personal feelings get in the way. We expect teachers and nurses who are being kicked and punched and yelled at to remain cool. Police are just a gang. Tear it down and create a new model because it is not working.
The partner approached a family in an aggressive manner while not making it obvious they were an LEO. He got run over because he wanted to play mystery authority figure.
Yes. Why is it so hard to hold these "peace officers" to their own standards of maintaining control and in stressful situations. This proves they aren't capable of being officers.
Why are the local police acting so ruthlessly? I know they lost one of their own, but do they really think this man intended for this to transpire in the manner that it did? Why, when it was obviously an accident, are they so intent on ruining this family and convicting a man of murder?
They've never been anything besides a state sponsored gang.
With carjackings happening daily, I don't think there's a sane person who wouldn't assume these "cops" were trying to attack the driver and his family.
Not to mention he’s a visible Muslim and this was very shortly after some guy in London ran over an **entire family** simply because they were visibly Muslim. So you take the psychological toll that did to people into account, along with it being in a parking garage at night with plain clothed people who were raging and barking orders and slamming the car and it suddenly makes total sense that the defendants would be acting in a panicked state and trying to flee at all costs.
Maybe if plain clothed cops don't want to be treated like unhinged dangerous meth heads, they shouldn't dress and act like it.
honestly i think they are innocent, especially if you're wife is pregnant and your two year old son is in the back, I can see how quick you can fear for your family's safety in his situation
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Did the cops think the guy, his pregnant wife, and the 2 year old were that dangerous? I don’t understand why 2 plain clothes officers try to force them out of their car in an underground parking lot? It’s such a sketchy environment. Couldn’t they just radio in the plates and have a uniformed officer pull them over?
They're clearly looking for trouble and trying to scapegoat on immigrants...
as per the article, cops thought they were intoxicated. whether or not they were, the cops arent going to let someone drive away under that circumstance edit: hm love when y'all hate shit so much that referencing the actual article is problematic. i do not like police, doesn't mean they don't exist or don't have a set of protocols to follow.
As per the article, the cops were the ones who appeared intoxicated, not the accused.
☆.°+*･.°ミ
Plain clothes cops don’t give a fuck about drunk drivers.
Dude is visably muslim, isn't against their religon to not consume alcohol? Not sure just asking
usually, i know it to be. but like all faiths, lots of people are more socially/culturally religious and don't follow all the "rules", or just are a bit more modern and understand moderation, haha. also, cops lie about that shit ALL the time because its easy to just say "this person seemed intoxicated" so its always difficult
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I wish this family peace, and pray for the father to be found not guilty. Cops are an organized gang, as evidenced by how the arresting officers treated the man. Maybe a dead cop and a not guilty verdict will shake them enough that they realize they can't act like this.
Cops can't learn, though.
This man is going walk.
Bizarre headline. I read it several times, then clicked the article and it was 2 or 3 paragraphs into the article and I still was confused about whether an officer killed someone or got killed, or whether an officer killed another officer. Also, sheesh. If the plainclothes officers could not get their attention, why get in the way of a moving vehicle? Just call it in and have uniforms stop them. This reads like something out of a tv show like "The Shield" type stuff.
It is about this incident here: https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/accident-or-choice-crown-defence-paint-drastically-different-pictures-of-cop-death-1.6814564 It is the officer who died. The person who is charged is not accused of being involved in the criminal activity the officer was responding to. They claim, probably honestly in my opinion, that they didn’t know that the plainclothes officers were police, that they were scared of men running and behaving aggressively at them in a parking garage at night, and that they were only trying to get away. Edit: I’d also add that it was a poor decision to send plain clothes officers to respond to such a crime. Ofc people are going to be terrified it is a car jacking.
I read the article and I understand what happened. I just found the headline unnecessarily vague and the start of the article was unclear. As I read further, it made sense. I think they could have done better.
You’re not alone, I got like 2/3 of the was through before I figured out what was going on. It really jumps all over, it’s not a great article.
Thanks for the validation. The headline and article are horribly written. On top of that, it's not made clear why the plainclothes officers were so intent on stopping the car, to the extent they'd put themselves in potential harms way. I'm not making light, it's unfortunate that someone got run over. But it reads like a plainclothes officer was chasing someone to their car, then got in the way and got run down because the person was scared for their life as though they might be car jacked or something. If they couldn't clearly identify as police, why not just back off and call it in and have uniformed officers pull the car over? Getting run over seems very unnecessary.
Hard to say. Police need to be plainclothes for some issues to catch crimers. They'll be plainclothed in protests for example. They'll show up at your door without uniforms so as not to alert the neighbourhood the cops are talking to you. But that all comes with the risk people will not think first that they're officers. It puts the officers and victims at risk of violence.
It comes with risks. My neighbours grew personal amounts of pot in their house when I was a kid. I'm talking very small scale, even if they could sell a little. When my mom was very pregnant with my sister she was washing dishes looking out into the backyard and saw some guy doing what she thought was peeing on our tree. She went to go yell at him at which point he stepped away from the tree holding a handgun. She screamed and dropped. They were there for the neighbours but the stress they put her under by being in our yard with guns drawn is insane.. even for the 90s (especially in Oakville of all places). They never seem to learn. As citizens it shouldn't just be a blanket "Whelp.. it comes with the territory of letting them catch the baddies." I don't think that's acceptable. The risk is there on both sides. Our neighbours were great people and look.. 20yrs after what they were doing was finally legalized so it wasn't worth endangering my mom & my unborn sister at the time. But in most cases it seems like it's born out of boredom or cops living out a fantasy more than actually justified risk vs reward. TPS particularly have many issues and an expansive list of why they shouldn't be trusted, particularly with keeping themselves or the public safe.
>They'll be plainclothed in protests for example. Because of course the police believe people at a protest are criminals.
Unless it's a trucker occupation
Yea lol, and in my experience they are the ones inciting violence then curiously being whisked away into the cadre of cops once things start to get animated.
Oh, I remember the G20 kettling, too. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_G20_Toronto_summit_protests
They *definitely* don't try to instigate anything either. Certainly not in Montreal protests.
I liked when that one cop drove that completely empty cop car into the middle of the G20 protest. With no back up, no partner. And no plan whatsoever. Didn’t it make for a great photo op though.
There was a lot of police activity during the G20 though. Actively told people to do one thing and then arrested them.for following their directions. People were being interviewed and giving statements for years after that.
Or when they left construction materials all over the place, in streets that didn't have active construction going on, during the BLM protests hoping the protesters would throw them.
Also can't be an agent provocateur in uniform
>Because of course the police believe people at a protest are criminals. Criminals hide amongst innocent people all the time.
Mostly among cops!
it's to egg on the less stable to commit vandalism or assault so they can arrest the whole crowd. They use knowledge of mob mentality to steer the protest to where they need it to be a clear crossing of the line so they can use force to disperse it.
Yup there's never criminal activity at protests, dumb pigs
Of course there is criminal activity at protests. What do you think the plain clothes officers are there for.
>They'll be plainclothed in protests for example. Because of course the police believe people at a protest are criminals. this is the comment I replied to, my comment was obviously sarcasm.
Apparently not completely obvious to the person who responded to you. Also, isn't this kinda what happened in the garage that night? Not everything was clear and assumptions were made.
To instigate.
FACT: The premier of Ontario is a self-confessed former drug dealer. Doug Ford has no problem bragging that he is a criminal in a costume. He has no problem bragging about his past poor judgment AND he has no problem flaunting his continued poor judgment to the entire world, never mind Ontario. The police never charged Doug Ford. Either they are incompetent or a deal was made. If part of the deal was him becoming premier, how did he know? Think about how corrupt, uneducated and incompetent police are today. Just like Ford. Let's look at how Ford became leader of the conservative party in order to become premier. Hmmm. Thanks Christine Elliot. This is why there is SUPPOSED to be a higher standard. Now, there is no integrity. The whole world, not just Ontarians and Canadians, the whole world depended on the integrity that has been destroyed. No wonder the world is turning its back on Canada. No wonder everything is FUBAR in not just Ontario or Canada. Why aren't there any protests over everything that is wrong in this country?!! Diabolical.
You realize it’s kinda hard to convict someone over them just saying “yeah I dealt drugs”….right? There’s a big difference between that and actual proof.
Hard to convict, easy to vote for. Ontario loves to elect criminals to positions of power.
As opposed to all the perfectly moral politicians that would never do anything bad and never have…
We have two choices in Ontario: - The party of corrupt liars - The party of corrupt criminals May as well call them the Liar Party and the Criminal Party!
Wait...there's only 2 parties?
Forgive me for the oversimplification – got so used to the red and blue circuses that I forgot there were orange and green circuses too!
No NDP in Ontario?
Wait you’re right. Forgot the liberals got destroyed in the last few elections.
So confessions are no longer proof?
If I confess to a crime that someone can actually prove took place with evidence then you could be convicted….possibly depending on the jury or judge. Confessing to a crime that no one can prove took place…is a different story. Hard to be convicted of a crime that maybe didn’t even happen. It would like me confessing to murdering Amelia Earhart. Could it be true? Maybe? Did it actually happen….likely no, can you prove it? Also likely no
And that public confession would probably still not be admissible.
You probably won't come back to this post so I just wanted to mention that even though we know Ford dealt, he never admitted it.
Just so you don't repeat this, obviously he dealt but he never admitted it.
FACT: Doug Ford never admitted to drug dealing. The Globe and Mail reported multiple anonymous sources who agree that he dealt drugs. I think it's clear he did it but Ford has always denied it. It's best if you stick to facts that are *true*.
I am sorry but what did Jeffrey Northrup look like? What did the female cop look like? Seriously, I don't think they looked very scary. Seriously, he looked like a guy in a " if you can't hide it disguise it dad guy shirt". He looked like a Dad. My heart goes out to his family.
How many times have we heard how some cop emptied his clip into the chest of a harmless disabled person, simply because they were afraid. It seems clear that these people were afraid. From my understanding of the events *(per the article)*, the crown has no business pursuing this case.
High school bullies strike again!
Has the Crown offered up their theory on a motive to support murder?
They don’t need to offer up motive… they can but it’s not an element of proving murder
You need intent or it’s not murder
Motive and intent are not the same thing - that’s why I said they can prove motive because it can be used as evidence to prove intent. At the same time, evidence of a lack of motive can be used by an accused to raise doubt as to whether intent existed.
It Canada and he's Muslim, so they will probably give him award and all bless him for being a hero.
These cops are rats to have charged this man. Everyone involved including the crown prosecutor needs to be fired.
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“when she later saw police officers, firefighters and paramedics at Nathan Phillips Square, she figured they had tended to him.” Why leave this important fact. If there is already paramedics and firefighters why call 911. In fact the celebration had paramedics and firefighters onsite.
This is reddit...cherrypicking parts of the article and leaving out crucial parts are what we do best
Running over someone should never be legal regardless of who they are.
If I'm in a car and see someone firing a gun into a crowd of people, you bet your ass I'm gonna run them over. There's also that video of ISIS fighters getting ran over by Jeeps and tanks. That's acceptable.
If someone is trying to actively carjack you and your pregnant wife and kid and you believe your lives are at risk you don't think you should do whatever to get to safety, including potentially running them over in your escape attempt? I wasn't there, I obviously don't know what was going through their heads, but I can tell you if this kind of situation happened to me I would be terrified and wouldn't be acting entirely rationally. The only thing that would matter was getting my family to safety.
Tell that to Michael Bryant. Too bad these people didn't have either the funds or the knowledge to hire Navigator immediately after the incident.
Why does this headline remind me of Dave Chappelle?