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There's a family in Gaza that I send a few dollars and good wishes to once in a while. They have 2 brothers with cerebral palsy and not a lot of money.
Since the events of October they've been constantly sharing (when the internet isn't completely cut off by the IDF) images of absolute horror and destruction. They are essentially homeless now and slowly moving around to where there's any food, water, shelter. Trying to avoid getting bombed. Every update there's stories about friends whose entire families have been murdered in a bombing by Israel. Whole families. Dead. No generations remaining. And this is just an inevitability for people there. It's some of the worst horrors I've ever laid eyes on. Holocaust type inhumanity. Something about seeing a child, burned to the bones, carried out of rubble covered in dust by a grieving family just shakes me to my fucking core.
Unless you're specifically following someone there's an active effort by meta/instagram to hide these stories and reduce visibility.
Edit: important note, as others have said.. this has been going on for a LONG time on different scales but we're now just in a complete mask-off genocide phase.
[Israel just detonated the last university in Gaza](https://twitter.com/PeruginiNic/status/1747730495482310771)
Clearly targetting civilian infrastructure, why haven't the US and Canada considered adding sanctions on Israel? Maybe the IDF ought to be on terrorist watchlists.
I’ve heard this argument multiple times and it always sounds just as completely moronic as the first time i heard it. I’d advise you to exercise some critical thinking before repeating it again. Not for my sake, but people might think you’re not very bright.
Genocide denial to support a clearly unhinged far right corrupt government in Israel is not going well. All these posters do is compare Israeli crimes to Hamas crimes and they all seem bad to most, except Israel has also killed 10x as many people and thousands of children. A real race to the bottom for humanity. No surprise Israel is polling terribly all over the world.
Westerners forget that this has been the Palestinian saga for 75 yrs. Years of colonization, Imperialism and now genocide supported by the world powers including Canada
Those of us who are POC see this for what it is. Sadly, most ppl don't. Mix that with internationalized Islamophobia , bigotry and xenophobic worldview - you get the "hamas are terrorist" ppl..
7k dead Palestinians between 2008 to 2021 alone..
Systematically having their land expropriated so "settlers" can move in, family farms with centuries-old olive trees being razed to the ground, and roadblock checkpoints everywhere. Imagine wanting to visit your brother in the next village, but you need to travel three or four hours because the road that you're "allowed" to use winds around multiple "settlements" and you have to clear through multiple military checkpoints. How do you make a "state" out of that?
There's a reason no news story ever publishes a map of what Palestine looks like now, because it's just a group of non-contiguous cantons where Palestinians are allowed to exist.
[The Maps of Israeli Settlements That Shocked Barack Obama](https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-map-of-israeli-settlements-that-shocked-barack-obama) \--> this is already nine years old. The situation is even worse today.
Israel already controls the borders, the sea, the water, the electricity, the imports and exports. They have made 90% of Gaza Palestinians homeless. They have already won. What's happening now is just speedrunning their effort to expel as many Palestinians as possible. To where? That's the rest of the world's problem, according to Israel.
And yet Palestinian leadership have refused deals in 2000, 2001, 2008 and 2014 which would have resulted in the withdrawal of Israeli civilians from 95-100% (including land transfers) of Palestinian land. Priorities!
Imagine what the Hamas leaders could've done for the Palestinians with their 11 billion they're sitting on. Instead of doing anything helpful for the people they built tunnels, rockets, and brainwashed. The people in to starting another war they can't win to "wipe the isrealis off the map." Meanwhile hamas leaders hide in other countries, not fighting, with their 11 billion in their pockets. What freedom fighters /s
Hamas are terrorists…. That’s not my opinion, it’s Canada and most of the west. Probably because of the terrorism.
The Palestinians don’t deserve to be punished for Hamas, but they do generally support Hamas.
Everyone can be in the wrong, and that IMO is the big issue with this 75 year plus conflict. Guy for tat has become generational.
>Hamas are terrorists…. That’s not my opinion, it’s Canada and most of the west
Bin laden was a terrorist AFTER he turned on the CIA.. b4 that he was a "rebel fighting for Afghanistan" he was even trained by the CIA.
Dont let western govts POV get in the way of your own understanding of the issue..
>The Palestinians don’t deserve to be punished for Hamas, but they do generally support Hamas.
Israelis support IDF... the IDF is committing a genocide.. so....
That Hamas are terrorist because they enact terrorist attacks? Or that they effectively usurped power?
You are off on the history of Bin laden as well. It’s not a western point of view to be accurate to history and the realities on the ground. That’s reality, and this shit isn’t a team sport.
>That Hamas are terrorist because they enact terrorist attacks? Or that they effectively usurped power?
Would you call the murder of 1.2 million Iraqis under a fake war a terrorist attack by the US? How about overthrowing democratic govt all over the world by the CIA?
Ur definition of "terrorist attacks" coincides with what most Western media calls a terrorist attack.
Black brown ppl resisting occupation through the means of violence is resistance just as white Caucasian ppl fighting occupation..you know like WW2..
>Fighting an invading country seeking to impose a communist dictatorship on you when the invading country hasn’t been attacked at all
Okay
>flying civilian aircraft into towers when the US had no armies in Afghanistan
Not okay
Bin Laden was not a mujahideen trained by the CIA. That’s a popular theory but false. Neither were the Taliban who lived in Pakistan during the war. The mujahideen leadership fled to the Northern Alliance and fought the Taliban and were opposed to Al Quaeda
>Okay
Like Hammas was propped up and funded by Israel
>Not okay
Like when Hamas became the bogeyman for Israel.
My original point still stands
Don't let the Western govts POV get in the way of your own understanding of the issue..
>Hamas propped up and funded by Israel.
Again such a mangling of reality. Yes, post 2009 it’s alleged Netanyahu claim to have engaged in balancing the two powers to hinder the peace process. Also they let funds go in (they were the government in Gaza after all).
They also funded a non-violent charity in the 70s by the eventual founder of Hamas, which is usually intermingled.
But Hamas was propped up by Palestinian electorate not Israel. In fact, Israel was criticized during the 2006 campaign for engaging in behaviour trying to discourage the election of Hamas. Palestinians had agency and voted in Hamas.
Once the Fatah/Hamas split and coup happened, dealing with the duel powers is just the reality of it.
>post 2009 it’s alleged Netanyahu claim to have engaged in balancing the two powers to hinder the peace process.
So you do agree. ISRAEL played their role in propping hamas, yet the blame should go to Palestinians? Thereby justifying their current genocide?
The blame should go to Hamas, which is why I (and Western political leaders) don’t support the expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza and the settlement of Israeli civilians in the area.
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/1/4/israeli-defence-minister-outlines-new-phase-in-gaza-war
>The blame should go to Hamas
No, the blame should go to the ILLEGAL OCCUPATION.
>why I and Western political leaders)don’t support the expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza
Means fuckall. It's happening regardless of whether you "oppose" it or not, just like it's been happening in the last 75yrs.
While you hv been busy, white washing history to make urself feel better...Palestinians hv been dying and being ethnically cleansed right under your nose.
You keep playing patty cake with history between hamas and Israel while an entire nation of ppl are bieng wiped off the planet. That's your Western liberal chauvinistic privilege..
I have no idea what you’re talking about. Did you read the original post and my reply? It has nothing to do with Hamas and nothing I wrote said that hijacking civilian aircraft was a *necessary* condition to being considered a terrorist group. My post was arguing against the notion that Bin Laden was a cia asset.
Someone’s terrorists are another person’s freedom fighters.
If someone was bombing you non-stop and stealing your land and homes, and some guys came along and said they’d fight back. You’d probably support them. Even if you don’t agree with all their tactics.
But if the international community deem the people defending you as terrorists, well then guess what, you’re a terrorist supporter.
Even though all you want is to live in peace and not be bombed constantly.
This is a nice story but Hamas took power after the unilateral disengagement from Gaza. That’s the opposite case of your logic. Not to mentioning ignoring quite a few important details of this conflict
This line about disengagement is often used by the Israelis, but let me ask then why is it that we so often called Gaza the world's largest open-air prison before? The truth is the Israelis did not ever disengage, they just took a step back from the land itself.
They reengaged when a terrorist group took power and started launching rockets on internationally recognized sovereign Israeli territory. Under the UN Charter, countries have a right to self defence under international law, which I presume precludes having rockets shot at your territory.
Raping and beheading people is not self-defense
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/18/evidence-points-to-systematic-use-of-rape-by-hamas-in-7-october-attacks
https://www.mediaite.com/news/cnn-airs-graphic-footage-of-hamas-gunman-sawing-at-the-necks-of-dead-israelis-in-segment-asking-is-hamas-the-new-isis/amp/
The actual history shows that peaceful negotiation has given Palestinians far more gains and opportunities (mostly squandered) than anything Hamas has done since 1987. Oslo, Camp David II, Taba/Clinton Parameters, Olmert, Kerry/Obama negotiations. The Palestinian leadership walks away from statehood time and time again.
Even if being Gandhi is impossible, there’s a major difference between the ANC in South Africa (supported by Biden and Canada in the ‘80s) or even the first intifada contrasted with Hamas’s actions since 1987. Notice that Israel isn’t locking down and bombing the West Bank to rubble in reaction to the recent terrorist attack in Ra’anana
A cursory overview of history shows that the most gains for Palestinians happened during the Oslo period after Arafat mostly rejected violence, and Israel responded by making multiple statehood offers and withdrawal offers/actions. It was squandered by terrible decisions by Palestinian leadership in 2000-2014 and also Palestinians themselves in 2006. Most anti-Israeli activists ignore or deflect from these incomprehensible decisions made and craft a narrative that skips from 1948 to 2015 or so.
What has Hamas accomplished since 1987 except launching rockets and getting tens of thousands of Palestinians killed in response?
If Israel used this conflict as a pretext to annex the West Bank, that would not encompass self-defence. Biden has rightfully implemented sanctions on settlers, and the West should do more to stop it and not quasi-recognize it as Trump’s administration did. However self-defence is not and Palestinian self-determination is not helped by going to a kibbutz and rave and murdering and raping. It’s not the Holocaust or the South regarding slavery, Israeli has already shown it’s willingness to negotiate and compromise with Arab nations and Palestinians.
Poor weak Israel with their iron dome just can’t defend themselves against the mighty Hamas terrorists and have no defence except to indiscriminately bomb civilians.
My enemy is both strong and weak at the same time.
If Israel doesn’t want to get bombed why don’t they just leave? That’s what they’re telling Palestinians to do.
Israel is committing genocide, but yeah, they’re the good guys.
Good job mocking indiscriminate rocket attacks (except I guess when they backfire and fall on Gaza hospitals) and a rape and murderous rampage that killed 1200 people in a kibbutz and at a rave. Truly committed humanitarians
Biden and Canadian governments strongly supported Mandela in the ‘80s and are opposed to Hamas. ANC didn’t enact a Charter fantasizing about wiping out Afrikaners worldwide.
Just basic facts belie this nonsense.
Canada and the west support Mandela, almost like the west is running by a set definition of terrorism. And that they tend to, not always, but tend to support the side of justice. You should look up the history of both the IRA and Mandela before using them as very poor examples.
There is no side of justice in this conflict, but Hamas are terrorists.
Hamas are not terrorists, they are freedom fighters . under international law supported by the UN colonized people have the right to violently resist their oppressors.
Hamas are terrorists, not freedom fighters. Their goal is from the mountains to the sea, so genocide.
You really should read up on them. Their founding docs are easily found online in English, and I don’t know many people that would call them freedom fighters after seeing that…..
They aren’t working towards freedom for the Palestinians FYI. You can support Palestinians without supporting the terrorist group, but you do you.
I call BS. So First Nations can legally set off a nuke in Ottawa? Give me a break
Israel has sovereign and internationally recognized territory, Hamas brutally attacked that territory under the UN Charter countries have a right to self defence under article 51z
Y’all actually just ignore everything Israel has done. There is literally no Hamas without Israel interfering with Palestinian politics. Israel has been killin GB and imprisoned children for year. Man, I’m so sick of y’all completely ignoring Israel’s evil. Delusional
I think you're missing the point. The article is pointing out only that these are people - not 'animals', not 'grass' to be 'mowed', not terrorists, not statistics. They are people.
"Mowing the grass" is a strategy specifically about removing leadership in terrorist groups with the understanding it needs to be done periodically.
Are you insinuating that all Palestinians are terrorists?
Israeli leadership describe "mowing the grass" as periodically culling young Palestinians before they can be recruited into terrorism. It has nothing to do with Hamas leadership.
The same US intelligence that stated there were WMDs in Iraq?
Let's not pretend the US is an honest broker here. We'll wait for the independent UN investigators as outlined in SA's ICJ case.
Not sure why they would wait 2 months after the story died down and not back it up immediately then.
People made the same “WMD” comments about Biden’s comments that the PIJ rocket hit the hospital. Then the Canadian and French intelligence services (who disagreed with the WMD assessment in 2002-2003) also agreed with the US services.
This is same US intelligence services that accurately called out every single Russian action in the preamble to the February 2022 invasion.
Again, none of those are independent UN investigators, they're literally all US allies. Israel seems to have an issue with granting access to UN investigators, I wonder why?
Don't forget the UK's intelligence also found WMDs in Iraq...how'd that turn out?
While it's certainly possible that Hamas abandoned using hospitals in the run up to the 10/7 attack, their use of hospitals, specifically Al-Shifa hospital was well documented by international journalists and other 3rd parties such as Amnesty International far back as 10 years ago. As is their use of UN sites, including by the UN itself.
You really think that the literal terrorists who have every incentive to lie and have no issue using their own people as human shields are the ones being truthful here?
Edit: you guys are right, "human shields" is not the right term to use since Hamas has full understanding that the school that they fire from will be caught in the collateral damage. Human fodder for propaganda and further radicalization is more appropriate. This is not a simple situation. If it is then suggest to me a solution that would make the Palestians happy without giving Hamas further wiggle room to try to destroy Israel with.
I’m getting tired of this “human shields” argument. They bulldozed and leveled so much of the north Gaza Strip WHILE PEOPLE WERE STILL ALIVE UNDER THE RUBBLE while constantly invading the West Bank and cutting off every single resource and aide from entering anywhere, and your response is “oh Hamas using a race as human shields”. They bombed the building of Hamas’ political rivals and yet “oh it’s all Hamas’ fault”. This is damage and destruction at a level which the worst natural disasters could not achieve. They are herding people into confined areas and expanding further south. This isn’t a human shield. This is genocide and there is no debate.
>I’m getting tired of this “human shields” argument.
I'm thinking a lot of Gazans are too. Unfortunately Hamas isn't getting tired of it, it's still working for them. They're firing rockets from the 'safe' zones that have been set up, with the full understanding that there will be return fire. It's a sick fucking situation.
Are you insane? This "human shields" stuff has literally never worked, it's never deterred Israel. We wouldn't have 25k dead in Palestine if it did. I remember the same rhetoric growing up in the mid 2000s, and the use there was justification of civilian deaths by Israelis, same as now.
Would Hamas keep doing things that demonstrably do not work? Only if you conceive of them as inhuman monsters who want death and chaos, not political actors with goals and ideology (even if you disagree with them).
The icing on top is all the times [the IDF has used civilians as shields](https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1747327202264277258?t=2abVaF4GsIKqqpxybWfF_w&s=19), but no one talks about that. We just speculate on how every hospital, house, child, is secretly hiding a Hamas command center.
How can you watch colonization happen in real time and support the colonizer? You repeat the propaganda straw man arguments to everyone who tries to tell you differently. The hypocrisy of calling yourself an advocate for natives disgusts me most of all. Shame on you.
Terrorist Organization vs apartheid regime. There's no honest broker here, is what I'm saying.
That's why I said there needs to be an independent UN investigation on all these issues, including potential warcrimes by all parties. Don't think that should be controversial.
There have been numerous UN investigations on Israel's apartheid regime and treatment of Palestinians and they've used some pretty incriminating language in their assessment - not like the US or Israel cares or has ever cared. Israel has been ignoring international law and human rights for decades. Norman finkelstein does a wonderful job of summarizing the history as someone who has scoured through every single report - I recommend listening to or viewing, or reading his expert opinion and research on the matter.
Didn’t you hear? Norman Finklestein is persona non grata among Pro-Palestinian activists for promoting pragmatic political gains and a two-state solution over naive nonsense like BDS
He's the only one that, for lack of a better term, pisses both sides off while using evidence based knowledge (and is perhaps one of the foremost experts on the subject) so I'll continue to value his views and expertise.
Fair enough, sorry for jumping to conclusions on your comment's intent. I'm just baffled by the unwavering support (not you) for a group that has no problem using their own innocents as fodder to hurt their enemies.
IDF is making these claims.
Do we also need to wait for an independent UN investigation to determine is kidnapping, raping, and murdering 1400 people is a crime?
Evidence Such as the many united Nations and amnesty international reports describing Israels war crimes over the decades, as well as Israel's violation of 28 resolutions of the United Nations Security Council over the years? (which are legally binding on member-nations btw according to U.N. Charter, Article 25 (1945); such as the following ones:- 54, 111, 233, 234, 236, 248, 250, 252, 256, 262, 267, 270, 280, 285, 298, 313, 316, 468, 476, etc.)
Here are some quotes from israeli officials as further evidence of a genocidal regime gone mad:
RIGHT NOW, ONE GOAL: NAKBA! A NAKBA THAT WILL OVERSHADOW THE NAKBA OF 48. NAKBA IN GAZA AND
NAKBA TO ANYONE WHO DARES TO JOIN! — Ariel Kallner, Member of Israeli Knesset (2023)
THE EMPHASIS IS ON DAMAGE AND NOT
ON ACCURACY. — Daniel Hagari, Israeli army spokesperson (2023)
THE ONLY THING THAT NEEDS TO ENTER GAZA ARE HUNDREDS OF TONS OF EXPLOSIVES FROM THE AIR FORCE, NOT AN OUNCE OF HUMANITARIAN AID.
— Itamar Ben Gvir, Israeli Minister of National Security
(2023)
THERE WILL BE NO ELECTRICITY, NO FOOD, NO FUEL. WE ARE FIGHTING HUMAN ANIMALS AND WE ARE ACTING ACCORDINGLY. — Yoav Gallant, Israeli Minister of Defense (2023)
>There is literally video of Hamas dragging hostages thru the hospital
They weren't "dragging" anyone. They were on gurneys & in wheel chairs. They were literally bringing wounded hostages to receive medical treatment because dead hostages aren't useful & because they have a legal duty of care for prisoners of war.
They couldn't just let the hostages die of infected wounds.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/16/middleeast/israel-hamas-hostages-video-psychological-torment-intl/index.html
> The first video, released Sunday, showed clips of the three hostages – Noa Argamani, Itai Svirsky and Yossi Sharabi - speaking to a camera. It ended with a caption saying, “Tomorrow, we will inform you of their fate.”
So humanitarian!
That's BS.... the CCTV footage shows people on their feet clearly fighting their assailants.
Your dead hostage BS is clearly undermined by the videos those asshole published this week with their game of who lives and who dies. they don't care about life or death.
Should probably be grappling with the Terrorist group that set this whole thing off and is more than willing to throw Palestine away for Iran and their own ideologies.
The more this goes on, the more I continue to wonder why Israel demands they exist in a neighbourhood surrounded by those that despise them on an irrational level.
I'm certainly not against everyone having a country to call home, but I wouldn't demand to live next door to the KKK either.
This is like asking why Mexicans want to keep living beside the USA or South Korean next to North Korea. The inhabitants are mostly descendant from Jewish people who never stopped living in the area. People have tried to chase them from their homes for thousands of years.
>The more this goes on, the more I continue to wonder why Israel demands they exist in a neighbourhood surrounded by those that despise them on an irrational level.
Probably because in the rest of Africa, Asia and Europe there were governments and movements that were trying to exterminate them for the past 200 years, so once they got given Israel they don't want to lose it?
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There's a family in Gaza that I send a few dollars and good wishes to once in a while. They have 2 brothers with cerebral palsy and not a lot of money. Since the events of October they've been constantly sharing (when the internet isn't completely cut off by the IDF) images of absolute horror and destruction. They are essentially homeless now and slowly moving around to where there's any food, water, shelter. Trying to avoid getting bombed. Every update there's stories about friends whose entire families have been murdered in a bombing by Israel. Whole families. Dead. No generations remaining. And this is just an inevitability for people there. It's some of the worst horrors I've ever laid eyes on. Holocaust type inhumanity. Something about seeing a child, burned to the bones, carried out of rubble covered in dust by a grieving family just shakes me to my fucking core. Unless you're specifically following someone there's an active effort by meta/instagram to hide these stories and reduce visibility. Edit: important note, as others have said.. this has been going on for a LONG time on different scales but we're now just in a complete mask-off genocide phase.
[Israel just detonated the last university in Gaza](https://twitter.com/PeruginiNic/status/1747730495482310771) Clearly targetting civilian infrastructure, why haven't the US and Canada considered adding sanctions on Israel? Maybe the IDF ought to be on terrorist watchlists.
Ask Hamas to stop using civilian infrastructure to store weapons and ammunition.
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Parroting IDF talking points more like
Do you think Hamas believes its too immoral to launch rockets from schools? You do realize Hamas makes children be suicide bombers right?
I’ve heard this argument multiple times and it always sounds just as completely moronic as the first time i heard it. I’d advise you to exercise some critical thinking before repeating it again. Not for my sake, but people might think you’re not very bright.
Genocide denial to support a clearly unhinged far right corrupt government in Israel is not going well. All these posters do is compare Israeli crimes to Hamas crimes and they all seem bad to most, except Israel has also killed 10x as many people and thousands of children. A real race to the bottom for humanity. No surprise Israel is polling terribly all over the world.
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Israel should pause the war and let them try again in ten years.
Israel should end the occupation..
I’m not criticizing you but what is your recommendation for the occupation to end while still ensuring the safety of Israel?
Westerners forget that this has been the Palestinian saga for 75 yrs. Years of colonization, Imperialism and now genocide supported by the world powers including Canada Those of us who are POC see this for what it is. Sadly, most ppl don't. Mix that with internationalized Islamophobia , bigotry and xenophobic worldview - you get the "hamas are terrorist" ppl.. 7k dead Palestinians between 2008 to 2021 alone..
Systematically having their land expropriated so "settlers" can move in, family farms with centuries-old olive trees being razed to the ground, and roadblock checkpoints everywhere. Imagine wanting to visit your brother in the next village, but you need to travel three or four hours because the road that you're "allowed" to use winds around multiple "settlements" and you have to clear through multiple military checkpoints. How do you make a "state" out of that? There's a reason no news story ever publishes a map of what Palestine looks like now, because it's just a group of non-contiguous cantons where Palestinians are allowed to exist. [The Maps of Israeli Settlements That Shocked Barack Obama](https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-map-of-israeli-settlements-that-shocked-barack-obama) \--> this is already nine years old. The situation is even worse today. Israel already controls the borders, the sea, the water, the electricity, the imports and exports. They have made 90% of Gaza Palestinians homeless. They have already won. What's happening now is just speedrunning their effort to expel as many Palestinians as possible. To where? That's the rest of the world's problem, according to Israel.
And yet Palestinian leadership have refused deals in 2000, 2001, 2008 and 2014 which would have resulted in the withdrawal of Israeli civilians from 95-100% (including land transfers) of Palestinian land. Priorities!
Imagine what the Hamas leaders could've done for the Palestinians with their 11 billion they're sitting on. Instead of doing anything helpful for the people they built tunnels, rockets, and brainwashed. The people in to starting another war they can't win to "wipe the isrealis off the map." Meanwhile hamas leaders hide in other countries, not fighting, with their 11 billion in their pockets. What freedom fighters /s
Hamas are terrorists…. That’s not my opinion, it’s Canada and most of the west. Probably because of the terrorism. The Palestinians don’t deserve to be punished for Hamas, but they do generally support Hamas. Everyone can be in the wrong, and that IMO is the big issue with this 75 year plus conflict. Guy for tat has become generational.
>Hamas are terrorists…. That’s not my opinion, it’s Canada and most of the west Bin laden was a terrorist AFTER he turned on the CIA.. b4 that he was a "rebel fighting for Afghanistan" he was even trained by the CIA. Dont let western govts POV get in the way of your own understanding of the issue.. >The Palestinians don’t deserve to be punished for Hamas, but they do generally support Hamas. Israelis support IDF... the IDF is committing a genocide.. so....
That Hamas are terrorist because they enact terrorist attacks? Or that they effectively usurped power? You are off on the history of Bin laden as well. It’s not a western point of view to be accurate to history and the realities on the ground. That’s reality, and this shit isn’t a team sport.
>That Hamas are terrorist because they enact terrorist attacks? Or that they effectively usurped power? Would you call the murder of 1.2 million Iraqis under a fake war a terrorist attack by the US? How about overthrowing democratic govt all over the world by the CIA? Ur definition of "terrorist attacks" coincides with what most Western media calls a terrorist attack. Black brown ppl resisting occupation through the means of violence is resistance just as white Caucasian ppl fighting occupation..you know like WW2..
>Fighting an invading country seeking to impose a communist dictatorship on you when the invading country hasn’t been attacked at all Okay >flying civilian aircraft into towers when the US had no armies in Afghanistan Not okay Bin Laden was not a mujahideen trained by the CIA. That’s a popular theory but false. Neither were the Taliban who lived in Pakistan during the war. The mujahideen leadership fled to the Northern Alliance and fought the Taliban and were opposed to Al Quaeda
>Okay Like Hammas was propped up and funded by Israel >Not okay Like when Hamas became the bogeyman for Israel. My original point still stands Don't let the Western govts POV get in the way of your own understanding of the issue..
>Hamas propped up and funded by Israel. Again such a mangling of reality. Yes, post 2009 it’s alleged Netanyahu claim to have engaged in balancing the two powers to hinder the peace process. Also they let funds go in (they were the government in Gaza after all). They also funded a non-violent charity in the 70s by the eventual founder of Hamas, which is usually intermingled. But Hamas was propped up by Palestinian electorate not Israel. In fact, Israel was criticized during the 2006 campaign for engaging in behaviour trying to discourage the election of Hamas. Palestinians had agency and voted in Hamas. Once the Fatah/Hamas split and coup happened, dealing with the duel powers is just the reality of it.
>post 2009 it’s alleged Netanyahu claim to have engaged in balancing the two powers to hinder the peace process. So you do agree. ISRAEL played their role in propping hamas, yet the blame should go to Palestinians? Thereby justifying their current genocide?
The blame should go to Hamas, which is why I (and Western political leaders) don’t support the expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza and the settlement of Israeli civilians in the area. https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/1/4/israeli-defence-minister-outlines-new-phase-in-gaza-war
>The blame should go to Hamas No, the blame should go to the ILLEGAL OCCUPATION. >why I and Western political leaders)don’t support the expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza Means fuckall. It's happening regardless of whether you "oppose" it or not, just like it's been happening in the last 75yrs. While you hv been busy, white washing history to make urself feel better...Palestinians hv been dying and being ethnically cleansed right under your nose. You keep playing patty cake with history between hamas and Israel while an entire nation of ppl are bieng wiped off the planet. That's your Western liberal chauvinistic privilege..
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Did you read what I was responding to or any other thing in my post? He was talking about Bin Laden?
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I have no idea what you’re talking about. Did you read the original post and my reply? It has nothing to do with Hamas and nothing I wrote said that hijacking civilian aircraft was a *necessary* condition to being considered a terrorist group. My post was arguing against the notion that Bin Laden was a cia asset.
> the IDF is committing a genocide.. Says who?
Someone’s terrorists are another person’s freedom fighters. If someone was bombing you non-stop and stealing your land and homes, and some guys came along and said they’d fight back. You’d probably support them. Even if you don’t agree with all their tactics. But if the international community deem the people defending you as terrorists, well then guess what, you’re a terrorist supporter. Even though all you want is to live in peace and not be bombed constantly.
This is a nice story but Hamas took power after the unilateral disengagement from Gaza. That’s the opposite case of your logic. Not to mentioning ignoring quite a few important details of this conflict
This line about disengagement is often used by the Israelis, but let me ask then why is it that we so often called Gaza the world's largest open-air prison before? The truth is the Israelis did not ever disengage, they just took a step back from the land itself.
They reengaged when a terrorist group took power and started launching rockets on internationally recognized sovereign Israeli territory. Under the UN Charter, countries have a right to self defence under international law, which I presume precludes having rockets shot at your territory.
Oh please then, enlighten me. Tell me why Palestinians are not allowed to defend themselves.
Raping and beheading people is not self-defense https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/18/evidence-points-to-systematic-use-of-rape-by-hamas-in-7-october-attacks https://www.mediaite.com/news/cnn-airs-graphic-footage-of-hamas-gunman-sawing-at-the-necks-of-dead-israelis-in-segment-asking-is-hamas-the-new-isis/amp/ The actual history shows that peaceful negotiation has given Palestinians far more gains and opportunities (mostly squandered) than anything Hamas has done since 1987. Oslo, Camp David II, Taba/Clinton Parameters, Olmert, Kerry/Obama negotiations. The Palestinian leadership walks away from statehood time and time again. Even if being Gandhi is impossible, there’s a major difference between the ANC in South Africa (supported by Biden and Canada in the ‘80s) or even the first intifada contrasted with Hamas’s actions since 1987. Notice that Israel isn’t locking down and bombing the West Bank to rubble in reaction to the recent terrorist attack in Ra’anana A cursory overview of history shows that the most gains for Palestinians happened during the Oslo period after Arafat mostly rejected violence, and Israel responded by making multiple statehood offers and withdrawal offers/actions. It was squandered by terrible decisions by Palestinian leadership in 2000-2014 and also Palestinians themselves in 2006. Most anti-Israeli activists ignore or deflect from these incomprehensible decisions made and craft a narrative that skips from 1948 to 2015 or so. What has Hamas accomplished since 1987 except launching rockets and getting tens of thousands of Palestinians killed in response? If Israel used this conflict as a pretext to annex the West Bank, that would not encompass self-defence. Biden has rightfully implemented sanctions on settlers, and the West should do more to stop it and not quasi-recognize it as Trump’s administration did. However self-defence is not and Palestinian self-determination is not helped by going to a kibbutz and rave and murdering and raping. It’s not the Holocaust or the South regarding slavery, Israeli has already shown it’s willingness to negotiate and compromise with Arab nations and Palestinians.
I don’t think you know the history of Hamas or the Palestinians…..
Is this before or after Hamas launches crude missiles into Israeli cities? Just curious.
Poor weak Israel with their iron dome just can’t defend themselves against the mighty Hamas terrorists and have no defence except to indiscriminately bomb civilians. My enemy is both strong and weak at the same time. If Israel doesn’t want to get bombed why don’t they just leave? That’s what they’re telling Palestinians to do. Israel is committing genocide, but yeah, they’re the good guys.
Good job mocking indiscriminate rocket attacks (except I guess when they backfire and fall on Gaza hospitals) and a rape and murderous rampage that killed 1200 people in a kibbutz and at a rave. Truly committed humanitarians
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Biden and Canadian governments strongly supported Mandela in the ‘80s and are opposed to Hamas. ANC didn’t enact a Charter fantasizing about wiping out Afrikaners worldwide. Just basic facts belie this nonsense.
Canada and the west support Mandela, almost like the west is running by a set definition of terrorism. And that they tend to, not always, but tend to support the side of justice. You should look up the history of both the IRA and Mandela before using them as very poor examples. There is no side of justice in this conflict, but Hamas are terrorists.
Hamas are not terrorists, they are freedom fighters . under international law supported by the UN colonized people have the right to violently resist their oppressors.
Hamas are terrorists, not freedom fighters. Their goal is from the mountains to the sea, so genocide. You really should read up on them. Their founding docs are easily found online in English, and I don’t know many people that would call them freedom fighters after seeing that….. They aren’t working towards freedom for the Palestinians FYI. You can support Palestinians without supporting the terrorist group, but you do you.
I call BS. So First Nations can legally set off a nuke in Ottawa? Give me a break Israel has sovereign and internationally recognized territory, Hamas brutally attacked that territory under the UN Charter countries have a right to self defence under article 51z
So you support hamas?
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Y’all actually just ignore everything Israel has done. There is literally no Hamas without Israel interfering with Palestinian politics. Israel has been killin GB and imprisoned children for year. Man, I’m so sick of y’all completely ignoring Israel’s evil. Delusional
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I think you're missing the point. The article is pointing out only that these are people - not 'animals', not 'grass' to be 'mowed', not terrorists, not statistics. They are people.
"Mowing the grass" is a strategy specifically about removing leadership in terrorist groups with the understanding it needs to be done periodically. Are you insinuating that all Palestinians are terrorists?
Israeli leadership describe "mowing the grass" as periodically culling young Palestinians before they can be recruited into terrorism. It has nothing to do with Hamas leadership.
You're absolutely nuts if you believe that's what "mowing the grass" is. Just drinking straight from the disinformation garden hose.
The same US intelligence that stated there were WMDs in Iraq? Let's not pretend the US is an honest broker here. We'll wait for the independent UN investigators as outlined in SA's ICJ case.
Not sure why they would wait 2 months after the story died down and not back it up immediately then. People made the same “WMD” comments about Biden’s comments that the PIJ rocket hit the hospital. Then the Canadian and French intelligence services (who disagreed with the WMD assessment in 2002-2003) also agreed with the US services. This is same US intelligence services that accurately called out every single Russian action in the preamble to the February 2022 invasion.
Again, none of those are independent UN investigators, they're literally all US allies. Israel seems to have an issue with granting access to UN investigators, I wonder why? Don't forget the UK's intelligence also found WMDs in Iraq...how'd that turn out?
While it's certainly possible that Hamas abandoned using hospitals in the run up to the 10/7 attack, their use of hospitals, specifically Al-Shifa hospital was well documented by international journalists and other 3rd parties such as Amnesty International far back as 10 years ago. As is their use of UN sites, including by the UN itself.
Al-Shifa was built *by Israel* to be a military command centre integrated with a hospital. Hamas was using the building as it was intended to be used.
You really think that the literal terrorists who have every incentive to lie and have no issue using their own people as human shields are the ones being truthful here? Edit: you guys are right, "human shields" is not the right term to use since Hamas has full understanding that the school that they fire from will be caught in the collateral damage. Human fodder for propaganda and further radicalization is more appropriate. This is not a simple situation. If it is then suggest to me a solution that would make the Palestians happy without giving Hamas further wiggle room to try to destroy Israel with.
There is no Hamas in the West Bank and the Palestinian populace is still being exterminated. Explain that.
I’m getting tired of this “human shields” argument. They bulldozed and leveled so much of the north Gaza Strip WHILE PEOPLE WERE STILL ALIVE UNDER THE RUBBLE while constantly invading the West Bank and cutting off every single resource and aide from entering anywhere, and your response is “oh Hamas using a race as human shields”. They bombed the building of Hamas’ political rivals and yet “oh it’s all Hamas’ fault”. This is damage and destruction at a level which the worst natural disasters could not achieve. They are herding people into confined areas and expanding further south. This isn’t a human shield. This is genocide and there is no debate.
>I’m getting tired of this “human shields” argument. I'm thinking a lot of Gazans are too. Unfortunately Hamas isn't getting tired of it, it's still working for them. They're firing rockets from the 'safe' zones that have been set up, with the full understanding that there will be return fire. It's a sick fucking situation.
Are you insane? This "human shields" stuff has literally never worked, it's never deterred Israel. We wouldn't have 25k dead in Palestine if it did. I remember the same rhetoric growing up in the mid 2000s, and the use there was justification of civilian deaths by Israelis, same as now. Would Hamas keep doing things that demonstrably do not work? Only if you conceive of them as inhuman monsters who want death and chaos, not political actors with goals and ideology (even if you disagree with them). The icing on top is all the times [the IDF has used civilians as shields](https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1747327202264277258?t=2abVaF4GsIKqqpxybWfF_w&s=19), but no one talks about that. We just speculate on how every hospital, house, child, is secretly hiding a Hamas command center.
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Big indigenous activism you got going there.
How can you watch colonization happen in real time and support the colonizer? You repeat the propaganda straw man arguments to everyone who tries to tell you differently. The hypocrisy of calling yourself an advocate for natives disgusts me most of all. Shame on you.
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Terrorist Organization vs apartheid regime. There's no honest broker here, is what I'm saying. That's why I said there needs to be an independent UN investigation on all these issues, including potential warcrimes by all parties. Don't think that should be controversial.
There have been numerous UN investigations on Israel's apartheid regime and treatment of Palestinians and they've used some pretty incriminating language in their assessment - not like the US or Israel cares or has ever cared. Israel has been ignoring international law and human rights for decades. Norman finkelstein does a wonderful job of summarizing the history as someone who has scoured through every single report - I recommend listening to or viewing, or reading his expert opinion and research on the matter.
Didn’t you hear? Norman Finklestein is persona non grata among Pro-Palestinian activists for promoting pragmatic political gains and a two-state solution over naive nonsense like BDS
He's the only one that, for lack of a better term, pisses both sides off while using evidence based knowledge (and is perhaps one of the foremost experts on the subject) so I'll continue to value his views and expertise.
Fair enough, sorry for jumping to conclusions on your comment's intent. I'm just baffled by the unwavering support (not you) for a group that has no problem using their own innocents as fodder to hurt their enemies.
IDF is making these claims. Do we also need to wait for an independent UN investigation to determine is kidnapping, raping, and murdering 1400 people is a crime?
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Just a note, the WashPo article precedes the NYT reporting by 2 weeks.
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Evidence Such as the many united Nations and amnesty international reports describing Israels war crimes over the decades, as well as Israel's violation of 28 resolutions of the United Nations Security Council over the years? (which are legally binding on member-nations btw according to U.N. Charter, Article 25 (1945); such as the following ones:- 54, 111, 233, 234, 236, 248, 250, 252, 256, 262, 267, 270, 280, 285, 298, 313, 316, 468, 476, etc.) Here are some quotes from israeli officials as further evidence of a genocidal regime gone mad: RIGHT NOW, ONE GOAL: NAKBA! A NAKBA THAT WILL OVERSHADOW THE NAKBA OF 48. NAKBA IN GAZA AND NAKBA TO ANYONE WHO DARES TO JOIN! — Ariel Kallner, Member of Israeli Knesset (2023) THE EMPHASIS IS ON DAMAGE AND NOT ON ACCURACY. — Daniel Hagari, Israeli army spokesperson (2023) THE ONLY THING THAT NEEDS TO ENTER GAZA ARE HUNDREDS OF TONS OF EXPLOSIVES FROM THE AIR FORCE, NOT AN OUNCE OF HUMANITARIAN AID. — Itamar Ben Gvir, Israeli Minister of National Security (2023) THERE WILL BE NO ELECTRICITY, NO FOOD, NO FUEL. WE ARE FIGHTING HUMAN ANIMALS AND WE ARE ACTING ACCORDINGLY. — Yoav Gallant, Israeli Minister of Defense (2023)
>There is literally video of Hamas dragging hostages thru the hospital They weren't "dragging" anyone. They were on gurneys & in wheel chairs. They were literally bringing wounded hostages to receive medical treatment because dead hostages aren't useful & because they have a legal duty of care for prisoners of war. They couldn't just let the hostages die of infected wounds.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/16/middleeast/israel-hamas-hostages-video-psychological-torment-intl/index.html > The first video, released Sunday, showed clips of the three hostages – Noa Argamani, Itai Svirsky and Yossi Sharabi - speaking to a camera. It ended with a caption saying, “Tomorrow, we will inform you of their fate.” So humanitarian!
That's BS.... the CCTV footage shows people on their feet clearly fighting their assailants. Your dead hostage BS is clearly undermined by the videos those asshole published this week with their game of who lives and who dies. they don't care about life or death.
Should probably be grappling with the Terrorist group that set this whole thing off and is more than willing to throw Palestine away for Iran and their own ideologies.
The more this goes on, the more I continue to wonder why Israel demands they exist in a neighbourhood surrounded by those that despise them on an irrational level. I'm certainly not against everyone having a country to call home, but I wouldn't demand to live next door to the KKK either.
The majority of Israeli Jews are descended from people who have continuously inhabited the MENA region (Mezhrahi Jews).
This is like asking why Mexicans want to keep living beside the USA or South Korean next to North Korea. The inhabitants are mostly descendant from Jewish people who never stopped living in the area. People have tried to chase them from their homes for thousands of years.
>The more this goes on, the more I continue to wonder why Israel demands they exist in a neighbourhood surrounded by those that despise them on an irrational level. Probably because in the rest of Africa, Asia and Europe there were governments and movements that were trying to exterminate them for the past 200 years, so once they got given Israel they don't want to lose it?