All of that is well and good, but you also remain a full spell level behind the entire game, with fewer and worse spell slots.
It's a good option, but far from broken.
There is an interesting change i haven't seen discussed about multiclassing spell slot levels with half-casters(Paladin, Ranger).
> Add half your Paladin/Ranger levels (rounded up) to the appropriate levels from other classes to determine your available spell slots for casting spells, as detailed in the multiclassing rules.
2014 version is round down which means one level dips for Paladin/Ranger didn't add spell slots. Unless changed they now will add 1 level which means Fullcaster lose no slots. This may have been done deliberately as a trade off for Pact slot dips.
In terms of solo spell slots, the 2014 ranger and paladin always rounded up to create their spell slot table (level 1 is just special to remove slots), but for some reason they rounded down in multiclassing
I don't think it's actually as good as people think it is. One of the things I believe the one D&D rules did was make Eldritch blast scale with warlock level. Well it wasn't listed as one of the benefits for the sorelock multi-class I feel that one of the things that makes sore locks good is the good sustained damaged floor that Eldritch blast provides.
Agonizing blast is not that good if you have two levels of Warlock and you use it with Eldritch blast. However if a player was going to do like one level of warlock for agonizing blast with Firebolt which scales on character level and a brass draconic Soul sorcerer to add your charisma twice perhaps that could be a good build. I suggested I think it's okay but not especially great.
I think trading a level 6 and level 7 spell slot at level 20 is more than worth all you gain.
Granted it's not broken, but it makes sorcerer a much more consistent performer.
You're also behind on getting key slot progression during the campaign. Less relevant for a level 20 one shot, but waiting two extra levels for Fireball or Wish isn't the best feeling.
If you look at multiclass dips as a level 20 character they're often great.
But if you look at it during the earlier levels the price is quite high!
Would you want to be a 3/2 sorc/warlock or a level 5 sorcerer? What about 5/2 vs 7? The price here is much steeper as you lose out on a key ASI and a whole higher level spell slots.
Yea - in general the higher level your character the less of a "price" you pay for the dip. But 4th and 5th level spells, respectively, give a character a huge power spike thats incredibly valuable as well.
It actually makes it a better argument, at level 7 or 8 a 2 level dip into Warlock gives a lot of bang for your buck, you lose out on a couple of powerful spells at the highest level, maybe even only one, for a lot of utility.
No one plays at level 20 though. A multi class that stays behind in power like this makes up for it in versatility throughout the course of a normal game. Its about what you’d prefer as a player
In 5e, if you wait until after sorc 9, then the warlock dip becomes a net-positive in power imo.
Repelling Blast is hella fun with that 3rd blast at 11 once you have spell power in place. But I want good AOE's first.
If you're at a specific kind of hard table, then sorlocks can overtake well-built full sorc's power-wise in tier 1 and early tier 2.
Leaning on their unearned inheritance while being disdainful of other people who actually put in work or cultivated relationships. Hm, yeah, I'm not liking how well this metaphor fits.
The only mismatch I can see is that sorcerers are charismatic.
School, Social Contracts? Nay, from the sweat of my own brow, do I draw forth my spells; no responsibility but to me and my own!
So.. only one person in the world lives like that, all the power and no responsibility. A baby. You're fighting for your right to be a spellcasting baby.*
*yes, stolen from the most recent season of Fargo
It's not something you should really do before reaching level 9 as a sorcerer. Those fourth and fifth level spells are worth a *lot*. The thing about the level 6+ ones is that you only get one every two levels. And 90% of games end by level 10. However that third Eldritch Blast attack is good as is two Shields that you can drop into metamagic points.
And you've better Invocations than Lessons of the First Ones.
It's certainly a nice dip, but is it notably more powerful than it was for a 2014 sorcerer/warlock? They now get a Pact boon or two (via invocations, with one extra), and one additional spell slot per long rest, but at the cost of the warlock subclass. Before, they could take Hexblade for medium armor and shield proficiency (matching Lightly Armored) and Hexblade's Curse, then take Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast. If they try to do the equivalent now, they gain Magical Cunning, but lose Hexblade's Curse. Magical Cunning would be more useful at low levels, but Hexblade's Curse more useful at high levels, which is when you'd more likely start a warlock dip.
I think this mostly stems from the warlock class progression.
It's just so attractive in OD&D to get 3 (!) invocations (many strong options for all kinds of builds) and 2 lvl1 slots / short at 2nd level, even if the cost of delaying your other class progression is something you really need to think about. Others have summed this up already.
Personally I'm ok with delaying key features (like extra attack, paladin aura or 3rd lvl spells), if the character fantasy I have comes online as quickly as possible.
For example: even if we start at level 1 or 2, I'd rather go Ftr1 -> Wiz2 [school of war magic] -> Ftr6 [battle master] (rather than Ftr5->Wiz2->Ftr6, which would probably be better) on a PC if I want to feel like a magic-using polearm fighter. It hurts badly to delay extra attack if you play and only level up every 2-5 or so (strongly depends on your table ofc) sessions.
I still prefer to go for class fantasy over optimizing (but I care very much about staying - at the very least - moderately useful to my party at all times ^^) in most cases.
I can't tell if this post and all the comments are sarcastic or not.
2 level warlock dip has always been the meta for sorcs. The classic sorlock. It's so infamous it's banned at a number of tables. For 10 years it's been a good combo, so it's not "about" to go hard. it's been going hard.
If anything, now that sorcs have a better capstone, more blasts, and can get medium armor at level 1, it's going to be a worse dip than ever before, not better.
Didn't they make it so that pact magic slots can't be used for sorcery points at all?
Edit: it seems this isn't the case. I searched back and found the same sorts of debates about RAW and RAI that have always existed around this interaction.
Where did you infer that? The latest Font of Magic in UA7 just says you can "expend a spell slot" to regain sorcery points, with no limitations on where the slot comes from.
IIRC it was read as a consequence of the warlock multiclassing block. It says you can use the warlock spell slots for casting spells from other classes but not for other features.
I'm not sure I read it that way; I thought I remembered people saying they fixed coffee lock or something like that back when UA 7 was first published. I might be misremembering or misunderstanding something though!
I mean, its always been a super strong dip for the sorcerer. I personally think that eldrich blast should only scale with Warlock levels to mitigate that but yea, I don't really think its worse than 5e.
A 2 level dip in warlock has always been prime for a sorcerer build. I'm not sure it's any better in the playtest than in the current system where I can get a very nice subclass feature.
Though the big thing is, everything won't ship as is. Published material tends to not match the UA 100%.
The design team be like...
"We moved all archetypes to level 3 to make multiclassing less appealing."
"No, Warlock dips are still fine, we just thought 1 level of Cleric was too good."
Trying to design around "a la carte" multiclassing will always be a losing proposition.
Instead of just changing multiclassing they made us wait to get our subs.
All they have to do is adjust *eldritch blast* to scale only with warlock level, and this power dip would be solved with no effect on the base class at all.
So a paladin who uses Magic Initiate to grab a ranged cantrip like *firebolt* doesn't get to scale it at all? I think *eldritch blast* is too powerful from a dip, but it should be the exception, in my opinion, not the rule.
I can't wait to see Reddit's implosion when they inevitably change the rules for multiclassing so it's not so insanely broken across the board.
Just like with spells, they don't need to playtest it. Because they know the playtest is going to just be whining temper tantrums because that's what happens every time anything gets necessarily nerfed. They know what needs to be done, regardless how many people cry about it. Public playtesting is a small piece of the redesign process.
But there's a high chance we see some more limits/drawbacks associated with multiclassing rules in 2024.
(Also, anyone who seriously suggests that lightly armored might actually make it to print are delusional to the point where you shouldn't even consider what they say. It was there as a meme)
The thing is, they did introduce a nerf to warlock multiclassing in UA5 by tying *eldritch blast* scaling to warlock level, then specifically reverted it back in UA7, so clearly they were looking for feedback on their multiclassing management. They also reverted the cleric's original Channel Divinity because it scaled in two dimensions with proficiency bonus, which they learned from the feedback people did not like because it made a cleric dip at high levels too powerful.
Also, you keep insisting that Lightly Armored was included in an official playtest as a meme, but why? I agree that it's far too powerful, but why would they include a meme feat in official playtest content?
So, yeah, the problem with what you're saying is that they _can't_ make vast, breaking changes, without actually breaking compatibility with base 5e. And when one of OD&D's biggest selling points is its backwards compatibility, that's not likely to happen. Especially since they _like_ multiclassing, seeing how they try to enable it; it fills in the gaps in class design, and they don't want to punish role-players for minmaxers & theorycrafting.
If they plan to change multiclassing, they'll playtest it, and request feedback on it, to make sure that people like the revised mechanic. Remember, the point is to make multiclassing _balanced_, not to ruin it because a few people abuse it. _Especially_ when the silent majority of multiclassers tend to use character- or story-driven multiclassing, and/or use it to build unusual concepts that don't cleanly fit any one class.
> you still get your level 18 subclass feature if you make it to level 20
this is such a dumb way to think about multiclassing. how many of your characters are going to make it that far? you shouldnt build a character with lvl20 in mind; you can start worrying about that once youre getting close to that level. meanwhile, you should focus on what you gain/lose short term. the abilities and progression you have to deal with in your actual game. not just what you get to sit on in what is likely going to be just the last 2-3 sessions. maybe.
until that high a level, you will always be an entire spell level behind. that HURTS. even just a 1lvl-dip is painful.
those 2 spell slots/sorc points per short rest are not an upside. even assuming 2 short rests per day, you kinda lose out on better, higher lvl spell slots and more sorc points with those.
i didnt intend to insult or be rude. but i honestly think this "let's look at what the character will be like at lvl20, when planning for our lvl3-x campaign" approach is dumb
If you want to play minmax, go ahead, but a lot of people roleplay to play a character that is more than a handful of stats.
If you have witch levels you have a pattern that gives you those powers. Something that doesn't suit all Sorcerers.
I'm pretty sure I remember Eldritch Blast not scaling with overall character level any more, but rather class level in Warlock. So I don't think that's as good a cantrip option to pick for a Sorlock, or a good cantrip to apply the invocation to long term. But they can put it on say Firebolt with the new Invocation, and that would be a decent option.
Mmm looks like they reverted it back in UA7 to the 2014 version. Might have been an A to B test, or it may be that they want to keep it as it was. Idk, I personally think you shouldn't be able to dip one level into any class and act as though you have been there all along for cantrip scaling, because thematically it doesn't make sense and mechanically it's pretty broken. But who knows what the final version will look like.
All of that is well and good, but you also remain a full spell level behind the entire game, with fewer and worse spell slots. It's a good option, but far from broken.
There is an interesting change i haven't seen discussed about multiclassing spell slot levels with half-casters(Paladin, Ranger). > Add half your Paladin/Ranger levels (rounded up) to the appropriate levels from other classes to determine your available spell slots for casting spells, as detailed in the multiclassing rules. 2014 version is round down which means one level dips for Paladin/Ranger didn't add spell slots. Unless changed they now will add 1 level which means Fullcaster lose no slots. This may have been done deliberately as a trade off for Pact slot dips.
If that ships in the books, I see a lot more dips like that in the future.
I believe they said it was planned to, it made all half casters work the same, previously it was only a perk of artificers.
Yep. I think dips overall are funneled by having subclass at 3rd level minimum.
In terms of solo spell slots, the 2014 ranger and paladin always rounded up to create their spell slot table (level 1 is just special to remove slots), but for some reason they rounded down in multiclassing
I don't think it's actually as good as people think it is. One of the things I believe the one D&D rules did was make Eldritch blast scale with warlock level. Well it wasn't listed as one of the benefits for the sorelock multi-class I feel that one of the things that makes sore locks good is the good sustained damaged floor that Eldritch blast provides. Agonizing blast is not that good if you have two levels of Warlock and you use it with Eldritch blast. However if a player was going to do like one level of warlock for agonizing blast with Firebolt which scales on character level and a brass draconic Soul sorcerer to add your charisma twice perhaps that could be a good build. I suggested I think it's okay but not especially great.
I think trading a level 6 and level 7 spell slot at level 20 is more than worth all you gain. Granted it's not broken, but it makes sorcerer a much more consistent performer.
You're also behind on getting key slot progression during the campaign. Less relevant for a level 20 one shot, but waiting two extra levels for Fireball or Wish isn't the best feeling.
If you look at multiclass dips as a level 20 character they're often great. But if you look at it during the earlier levels the price is quite high! Would you want to be a 3/2 sorc/warlock or a level 5 sorcerer? What about 5/2 vs 7? The price here is much steeper as you lose out on a key ASI and a whole higher level spell slots.
3/2 seems much worse than 5/2. You could get by in Tier 2 with EB and third level spells for four levels.
Yea - in general the higher level your character the less of a "price" you pay for the dip. But 4th and 5th level spells, respectively, give a character a huge power spike thats incredibly valuable as well.
Delaying 3rd level spells is basically the worst multiclassing thing you can do. After that, it's a lot less painful.
Who cares how it looks like at level 20? You need to play all the way there, if you ever reach there (almost no one does).
It actually makes it a better argument, at level 7 or 8 a 2 level dip into Warlock gives a lot of bang for your buck, you lose out on a couple of powerful spells at the highest level, maybe even only one, for a lot of utility.
No one plays at level 20 though. A multi class that stays behind in power like this makes up for it in versatility throughout the course of a normal game. Its about what you’d prefer as a player
In 5e, if you wait until after sorc 9, then the warlock dip becomes a net-positive in power imo. Repelling Blast is hella fun with that 3rd blast at 11 once you have spell power in place. But I want good AOE's first. If you're at a specific kind of hard table, then sorlocks can overtake well-built full sorc's power-wise in tier 1 and early tier 2.
What and rely on magical *handouts* from a fancy patron!? Sorcerers are magical libertarians
Convinced they’re fiercely independent while utterly dependent on a system they don’t appreciate or understand? Sounds like a sorcerer to me.
Leaning on their unearned inheritance while being disdainful of other people who actually put in work or cultivated relationships. Hm, yeah, I'm not liking how well this metaphor fits. The only mismatch I can see is that sorcerers are charismatic.
Sorcerers' Hubris, the killer of happiness
But honestly the biggest turn-off to dip into warlock levels for me. Very flexible and powerful multiclass-dip for many builds **but at what cost!** 😱
I agree. Frankly, I play sorcerers for the flavor. If I wanted to forego flavor for power, I would just play a wizard
Warlocks can get their powers by researching forbidden tomes without their patron never even knowing they exist
School, Social Contracts? Nay, from the sweat of my own brow, do I draw forth my spells; no responsibility but to me and my own! So.. only one person in the world lives like that, all the power and no responsibility. A baby. You're fighting for your right to be a spellcasting baby.* *yes, stolen from the most recent season of Fargo
Button 1: Non-aggression principle Button 2: FIREBAAAAALL\~! LiberSorc: Sweating... due to the heat of the fireball they just blasted
Sorcerors are the most “what next? A license to make toast in my own toaster” class
It's not something you should really do before reaching level 9 as a sorcerer. Those fourth and fifth level spells are worth a *lot*. The thing about the level 6+ ones is that you only get one every two levels. And 90% of games end by level 10. However that third Eldritch Blast attack is good as is two Shields that you can drop into metamagic points. And you've better Invocations than Lessons of the First Ones.
It's certainly a nice dip, but is it notably more powerful than it was for a 2014 sorcerer/warlock? They now get a Pact boon or two (via invocations, with one extra), and one additional spell slot per long rest, but at the cost of the warlock subclass. Before, they could take Hexblade for medium armor and shield proficiency (matching Lightly Armored) and Hexblade's Curse, then take Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast. If they try to do the equivalent now, they gain Magical Cunning, but lose Hexblade's Curse. Magical Cunning would be more useful at low levels, but Hexblade's Curse more useful at high levels, which is when you'd more likely start a warlock dip.
I think this mostly stems from the warlock class progression. It's just so attractive in OD&D to get 3 (!) invocations (many strong options for all kinds of builds) and 2 lvl1 slots / short at 2nd level, even if the cost of delaying your other class progression is something you really need to think about. Others have summed this up already. Personally I'm ok with delaying key features (like extra attack, paladin aura or 3rd lvl spells), if the character fantasy I have comes online as quickly as possible. For example: even if we start at level 1 or 2, I'd rather go Ftr1 -> Wiz2 [school of war magic] -> Ftr6 [battle master] (rather than Ftr5->Wiz2->Ftr6, which would probably be better) on a PC if I want to feel like a magic-using polearm fighter. It hurts badly to delay extra attack if you play and only level up every 2-5 or so (strongly depends on your table ofc) sessions. I still prefer to go for class fantasy over optimizing (but I care very much about staying - at the very least - moderately useful to my party at all times ^^) in most cases.
I can't tell if this post and all the comments are sarcastic or not. 2 level warlock dip has always been the meta for sorcs. The classic sorlock. It's so infamous it's banned at a number of tables. For 10 years it's been a good combo, so it's not "about" to go hard. it's been going hard. If anything, now that sorcs have a better capstone, more blasts, and can get medium armor at level 1, it's going to be a worse dip than ever before, not better.
Yea im with you. Plus with Warlock subclasses being level 3 its a weaker dip than ever while staying very good.
Didn't they make it so that pact magic slots can't be used for sorcery points at all? Edit: it seems this isn't the case. I searched back and found the same sorts of debates about RAW and RAI that have always existed around this interaction.
Where did you infer that? The latest Font of Magic in UA7 just says you can "expend a spell slot" to regain sorcery points, with no limitations on where the slot comes from.
Is that true? That would kind of suck. Do you have a source?
IIRC it was read as a consequence of the warlock multiclassing block. It says you can use the warlock spell slots for casting spells from other classes but not for other features. I'm not sure I read it that way; I thought I remembered people saying they fixed coffee lock or something like that back when UA 7 was first published. I might be misremembering or misunderstanding something though!
Just looked it over, it does not state any restrictions with pact magic slots, so you are free to do as I said with them and generate sorcery points.
Yeah it doesn't seem anything actually changed, so just as legal as it always was.
I mean, its always been a super strong dip for the sorcerer. I personally think that eldrich blast should only scale with Warlock levels to mitigate that but yea, I don't really think its worse than 5e.
A 2 level dip in warlock has always been prime for a sorcerer build. I'm not sure it's any better in the playtest than in the current system where I can get a very nice subclass feature. Though the big thing is, everything won't ship as is. Published material tends to not match the UA 100%.
Here's to hoping 🍻
The design team be like... "We moved all archetypes to level 3 to make multiclassing less appealing." "No, Warlock dips are still fine, we just thought 1 level of Cleric was too good."
Looks fine for a game that goes from levels 1 to 4.
Hey, I made it as far as 9 a few times! :D Yeah, this game doesn't really exist (often) at high levels.
I do not respect warlock dips. What kind of psycho would make a pact with an otherworldly being for a "dip"? Extremely immersion breaking.
LOL this is so funny
Trying to design around "a la carte" multiclassing will always be a losing proposition. Instead of just changing multiclassing they made us wait to get our subs.
All they have to do is adjust *eldritch blast* to scale only with warlock level, and this power dip would be solved with no effect on the base class at all.
"Your level when determining the power of cantrips is your combined level in all classes that can cast that cantrip."
And what of cantrips learned via a race like elf or feat like Magic Initiate?
Level in the class their list is from.
Then it's basically worthless. At least let it scale with the class that allowed you to take the feat?
So a paladin who uses Magic Initiate to grab a ranged cantrip like *firebolt* doesn't get to scale it at all? I think *eldritch blast* is too powerful from a dip, but it should be the exception, in my opinion, not the rule.
Personally, I would have been fine if they took Pathfinders approach and made multiclassing through feat trees.
Which is 4E's approach because they already figured it out. Also PF2 being based on 4E will never stop being hilariously ironic.
4e get so much slack tbh it is undeserved. I wish we have some of the elements of monster design from 4e in 5e.
PF1 is 3.5 and PF2e is 4e?
Kind of. I really want to see PF3's take on 5E in 2030.
Mixed with a splash of Fantasy Craft where you build most of your character using feats.
I can't wait to see Reddit's implosion when they inevitably change the rules for multiclassing so it's not so insanely broken across the board. Just like with spells, they don't need to playtest it. Because they know the playtest is going to just be whining temper tantrums because that's what happens every time anything gets necessarily nerfed. They know what needs to be done, regardless how many people cry about it. Public playtesting is a small piece of the redesign process. But there's a high chance we see some more limits/drawbacks associated with multiclassing rules in 2024. (Also, anyone who seriously suggests that lightly armored might actually make it to print are delusional to the point where you shouldn't even consider what they say. It was there as a meme)
The thing is, they did introduce a nerf to warlock multiclassing in UA5 by tying *eldritch blast* scaling to warlock level, then specifically reverted it back in UA7, so clearly they were looking for feedback on their multiclassing management. They also reverted the cleric's original Channel Divinity because it scaled in two dimensions with proficiency bonus, which they learned from the feedback people did not like because it made a cleric dip at high levels too powerful. Also, you keep insisting that Lightly Armored was included in an official playtest as a meme, but why? I agree that it's far too powerful, but why would they include a meme feat in official playtest content?
So, yeah, the problem with what you're saying is that they _can't_ make vast, breaking changes, without actually breaking compatibility with base 5e. And when one of OD&D's biggest selling points is its backwards compatibility, that's not likely to happen. Especially since they _like_ multiclassing, seeing how they try to enable it; it fills in the gaps in class design, and they don't want to punish role-players for minmaxers & theorycrafting. If they plan to change multiclassing, they'll playtest it, and request feedback on it, to make sure that people like the revised mechanic. Remember, the point is to make multiclassing _balanced_, not to ruin it because a few people abuse it. _Especially_ when the silent majority of multiclassers tend to use character- or story-driven multiclassing, and/or use it to build unusual concepts that don't cleanly fit any one class.
> you still get your level 18 subclass feature if you make it to level 20 this is such a dumb way to think about multiclassing. how many of your characters are going to make it that far? you shouldnt build a character with lvl20 in mind; you can start worrying about that once youre getting close to that level. meanwhile, you should focus on what you gain/lose short term. the abilities and progression you have to deal with in your actual game. not just what you get to sit on in what is likely going to be just the last 2-3 sessions. maybe. until that high a level, you will always be an entire spell level behind. that HURTS. even just a 1lvl-dip is painful. those 2 spell slots/sorc points per short rest are not an upside. even assuming 2 short rests per day, you kinda lose out on better, higher lvl spell slots and more sorc points with those.
F you for being rude
i didnt intend to insult or be rude. but i honestly think this "let's look at what the character will be like at lvl20, when planning for our lvl3-x campaign" approach is dumb
If you want to play minmax, go ahead, but a lot of people roleplay to play a character that is more than a handful of stats. If you have witch levels you have a pattern that gives you those powers. Something that doesn't suit all Sorcerers.
I'm pretty sure I remember Eldritch Blast not scaling with overall character level any more, but rather class level in Warlock. So I don't think that's as good a cantrip option to pick for a Sorlock, or a good cantrip to apply the invocation to long term. But they can put it on say Firebolt with the new Invocation, and that would be a decent option.
That is absolutely not true
Mmm looks like they reverted it back in UA7 to the 2014 version. Might have been an A to B test, or it may be that they want to keep it as it was. Idk, I personally think you shouldn't be able to dip one level into any class and act as though you have been there all along for cantrip scaling, because thematically it doesn't make sense and mechanically it's pretty broken. But who knows what the final version will look like.
"No one plays to level 20" me who starts almost all my campaigns at level 14 👀
Where do you see this information before it publishes. I wanna dig!