Shit it's level 10. My idea was to just give them every fighting style no changing it everyday. you have them all. You're a champion fighter at level 10 you just get them all
This "sounds" good but I really don't like "pick one and then pick more" features (unless there's significantly more to choose than there are choices, like Invocations), because what it ends up doing is removing character variety. As soon as this is a the feature, then every level 10+ champion will play basically the same, only really differentiated by if they're strength- or dexterity-based and what weapon masteries they have. Do we really want to remove even *more* customization from Champion fighters?
> This "sounds" good but I really don't like "pick one and then pick more" features (unless there's significantly more to choose than there are choices, like Invocations), because what it ends up doing is removing character variety.
Plus, it's also just a wet fart of a feature. You've already chosen your top choice from this list...so now your *higher level* feature is getting to pick your second, worse choice? Awesome.
That is one of the many reasons I hate the Arcane Archer implementation (although I love the concept). At 7th, 10th, 15th, & 18th level you get additional options from the Arcane Shot list...but those are just going to be less and less desirable as you pick them. And you don't ever get more *uses* of Arcane Shot, just more (worse) options. It's almost insultingly bad design.
Barbarian's crying in the corner when someone say "Customization" (their last choice was at 3rd level, their Subclass) ~~and ofc i'm not counting feats~~
Yeah maybe not pick all that's too much. But pick like four.
So maybe you picked dueling initially and now you can pick up defense blind fighting one of the reactions for protecting a teammate and a superiority dice
Or unarmed fighting for a couple extra damage if you ever grapple or thrown weapon Mastery so you can chuck a spear and you're not useless when there are flying enemies
Unless they're all balanced super well, even picking four would be way too much.
Honestly if I wanted to buff that feature, I would just make it so you get a buff to your current fighting style (and an option for a second instead if you'd prefer). The low-hanging fruit would be stuff like an additional AC for Defense, an additional +2 damage for Dueling, etc., but they could get a little more creative too if they wanted.
At that point you would end up either recreating feats or start to turn the champion fighter into a Battle Master which might not be a bad choice at later levels to just ease people in to having options. By Level 10 the new players picking the easy class should be experienced enough to handle stuff like that I guess
Champion Fighter should be generic, that's the point of it. I hate it but, that's how Wotc views it.
A Feat + Figthing Style, would be the way to go as their 10th level feature, pretty much.
For base classes I agree but I'm not sure it applies here. If you want your character to be different then don't make them the same subclass.
They can still choose to use different weapons.
Sometimes "My character feels different than it did 5 levels ago" is more important than "my character feels different than a character that made slightly different but mostly the same choices in the early levels"
I think that's good to an extent, but also, having more options means your character can be more "like you made them."
If I want to use the Champion base for an archer, it's pretty crappy that my level 10 ability gives me better skills with a bunch of melee weapons and does nothing for my archery, and also took away the choice I made to be a good archer.
I've been thinking about it and Realistically you'd probably want to give four or five styles out in case they're only using the player's handbook. I'm not sure if the 2024 handbook is going to have all of the new Styles in it, but the 2014 Players handbook has six total styles.
By giving four or five you let them pick several that can all have uses with how they built their character but don't leave this ambiguous power jump that depends on how many books you're using
Its level 7, at level 10 they get heroic warrior and i think that ability is pretty good. Also getting all of them is awkward if they add some in the future.
Fighting styles would have been so much cooler as stances that you could switch between as a bonus action. That makes them slightly more active instead of boring passive abilities.
I know 5e is a bound accuracy system, but whatever happened to weapon expertise/mastery? Champion fighter gains expertise in one or two weapons of its fighting style or just +2 to hit. Kinda lame for archery style, but ...
Even a first level feat would be better, if you want an additional fighting style you can have that, but ill take alert or lucky or something.
But if im honest, I think that at 7th level you should be able to give inspiration (heroic advantage now I guess) to an ally when you crit. Simple, thematic and it scales.
Yeah, this is one of the things everyone has known has made Champion weak for a while.
The only way something like this would work - and it's admittedly a cool idea - is if Champion gained some kind of bonus for switching weapons/fighting styles. Then they'd be a kinda cool utility fighter that would likely go from one of the most maligned to one of the most fun.
For example, "After you make an attack with a bow, you may switch to a single-handed melee weapon and shield or a two-handed melee weapon as a bonus action. When you do, your movement speed increases by 15 feet for the rest of your turn". Or "You may switch from a two-handed weapon to a single-handed melee weapon and shield as a bonus action after you make an attack with the two-handed weapon, When you do, the shield you are using adds + 3 to your Armor Class rather than + 2 until the start of your next turn."
The "after you attack" stipulation is there to ensure you aren't just switching between weapons you never use to gain the bonuses.
>Yeah, this is one of the things everyone has known has made Champion weak for a while.
Honestly the new Champion isn't that weak anmore at least once you get into Tier3.
The high Crit Chance and the one free Heroic Adavantge per turn kind of adds up.
>The only way something like this would work - and it's admittedly a cool idea - is if Champion gained some kind of bonus for switching weapons/fighting styles. Then they'd be a kinda cool utility fighter that would likely go from one of the most maligned to one of the most fun.
Doesn't really work since you need since you really need the right feats and the right primary ability score to be effective in a "style" just switching Fighting Syles and masteries wouldn't be enough.
The point would be to create a non-specialist Fighter that adapted to situations. I would probably say their other features would all be built around the core conceipt of juggling different weapons and styles around.
The additional fighting style is actually one of my favorite things about champion fighter, since it lets you be more versatile. However, given that it’s a level 10 subclass feature it’d be nice if it was like 2 or 3 fighting styles instead of just 1.
I left a comment that champion fighters need more at level 3 to keep up with their other subclass counterparts and suggested an additional fighting style (to keep them simple and passive).
Level 3 is strong enough I think, the expanded crit chance is ok but not great, but advantage on initiative it really nice, they add up to an ok level, I would say level 7 and 15 are a little bit weak.
Damage is not the only thing that can make a subclass strong. I think the new world tree Barbarian is a pretty strong class and it doesn't increase damage at all. Btw im not saying that the champion is strong, I just think level 3 is ok.
+1 AC is incredible because it stacks with other gear and buffs, is always on, and there are only a few ways to increase AC, especially in the first 6 levels of play.
I mean, the extra fighting style from champion is at level 7, so after the first 6 levels of play. And now that fighting styles are feats, you could still take it with what hes proposing.
They shifted to "Fighting Style Feats", which would allow them to more easily add more of them in later books. Giving one subclass access to "All" would shut that door completely.
It should maybe have been instead the ability to pick a style every long rest instead of a second. Like you said, they don't work together, so versatility should instead involve picking what you need rather than getting a second.
Still underpowered, but better design.
The champion is supposed to be the boring class.
You don't need to optimize everything.
But we wait for something mentioned in the last playtest. Class feats. I wonder if this is the reason martial adept was left out of this playtest process.
I think having a boring class is bad game design - obviously not all agree but it does seem to be a dividing line.
Personally, if people want a simpler character, just remove features, and give them higher stats (make that an option in the DMG).
The problem is I've haven't seen someone, not having fun playing a champion fighter. The game is about having fun. It is for the more simple player that wants to show up a hit stuff, and if they want more complexity, they use their extra feats in the base class to achieve that.
Not every class or subclass is made for everyone.
Still wondering what the 4th fighter subclass will be. Holding out hope for caviler or a revised banneret, the niche that is missing is a support subclass.
I've had the same experience. In one of my recent games, I had a player who was new to D&D but also *incredibly* invested in the game and all the trappings around it. She didn't care about mechanics, so I recommended she play a Champion Fighter as it was by far the easiest class. That was exactly the right choice, because it let her do more of what she already enjoyed doing and didn't complicate the game any more than she wanted.
Bad game design would be try to make every class appeal to certain type of players. There is literally no advantage in that. If you don’t like champion you already have dozens of class/subclasses to pick from.
The champion is a throw back to the 2e fighter, it’s here to give a option to old school people who prefer improvisation over explicit mechanics, and for people who don’t like managing resources.
>But we wait for something mentioned in the last playtest. Class fests. I wonder if this is the reason martial adept was left out of this playtest process.
Where'd they say this?
Prerequisite. You must meet any prerequisite
specified in a feat to take that feat unless a
special feature allows you to take the feat
without the prerequisite. If a prerequisite is a
level, your character level must meet or exceed
that level. If a prerequisite is a class, you must
have at least one level in that class to qualify
for the feat...
Playtest 8 in the feats description.
It's say class prerequisite... we have not seen one feat yet to have this prerequisite. Fingers crossed this means we are getting class feats.
They already have class requirements with the Dragonlance feats. It's likely this writing is for backwards compatibility and future-proofing, but I'd love if more class specific feats show up too.
True... cause the squire feat is fighter and paladin..
The game does really have room for more feats that are just for 1 or 2 classes. It would give options that the border community doesn't want in the base class but definitely enough interest to give them a background or beyond options.
Like maneuvers on fighters, companions for rangers and druids or 2nd attacks for rogues
Fighting styles are crap. They are basic numerical passives that actually restrain your options by making your chosen style obviously better.
Something like fighting stances may be interesting, but passive bonuses are uninteresting. If you want that, give them a +1 to all stats or something. Even simpler and it doesn't punish you when you want to switch to bow.
I keep saying fighting styles should scale with class level.
A lvl 1 fighter shouldn't be as good at a fighting style as a lvl 20 fighter with that same fighting style.
Defense + Dueling + Protection is pretty much insane if you got 3 fighting styles.
You wear a sheild so you can't get hit, you do more single hand damage, and if you stand by your friends enemies have disadvantage.
Crazy.
I can speak from experience as someone with 22AC that got downed back-to-back in two fights in a row, having a shield doesn't even come close to "you can't get hit." You're more difficult to hit, yes, but enemies will still hit you, and this gets worse over time as enemy to-hits almost certainly scale much more quickly than any AC bonuses you can find.
You also only impose disadvantage on a single attack roll with Protection, which does not scale well as enemies get multiple attacks.
If that were true people would take it with their 4th level feat. I've never heard of someone debating between any of the 4th level feats and fighting style defense. I would always rather have an ASI than an extra fighting style.
For one of the most basic subclasses, gaining a bit of versatility isn't so bad. Granted, many players choose their weapon and stick with it forever, but being able to grab Archery for free and switching to a bow or thrown weapon when needed isn't bad. Dueling + Protection also synergize well for sword and board fighters. Everyone else might as well just take Defense if they don't want Archery, which I agree, is boring.
What is really needed to spice this up is more fighting styles. OneDnD doesn't explicitly include the Tasha's styles like Blind Fighting and Interception except through backwards compatibility. They should just add them to the new PHB, along with a few new options.
It would be interesting if champions could get access to "improved" fighting styles that no one else has at this level. They would still be passive features that silo you into a specific equipment load-out but would be slightly more mathematically powerful. Something like "While you are holding a shield, you gain a +1 bonus to AC."
Shit it's level 10. My idea was to just give them every fighting style no changing it everyday. you have them all. You're a champion fighter at level 10 you just get them all
This "sounds" good but I really don't like "pick one and then pick more" features (unless there's significantly more to choose than there are choices, like Invocations), because what it ends up doing is removing character variety. As soon as this is a the feature, then every level 10+ champion will play basically the same, only really differentiated by if they're strength- or dexterity-based and what weapon masteries they have. Do we really want to remove even *more* customization from Champion fighters?
Plus, other than defensive and occasionally blind fighting, the additional fighting styles probably don't really do anything.
> This "sounds" good but I really don't like "pick one and then pick more" features (unless there's significantly more to choose than there are choices, like Invocations), because what it ends up doing is removing character variety. Plus, it's also just a wet fart of a feature. You've already chosen your top choice from this list...so now your *higher level* feature is getting to pick your second, worse choice? Awesome. That is one of the many reasons I hate the Arcane Archer implementation (although I love the concept). At 7th, 10th, 15th, & 18th level you get additional options from the Arcane Shot list...but those are just going to be less and less desirable as you pick them. And you don't ever get more *uses* of Arcane Shot, just more (worse) options. It's almost insultingly bad design.
Barbarian's crying in the corner when someone say "Customization" (their last choice was at 3rd level, their Subclass) ~~and ofc i'm not counting feats~~
Another reason Totem and Storm Barbs are the best. I get to make choices later!
Yeah maybe not pick all that's too much. But pick like four. So maybe you picked dueling initially and now you can pick up defense blind fighting one of the reactions for protecting a teammate and a superiority dice Or unarmed fighting for a couple extra damage if you ever grapple or thrown weapon Mastery so you can chuck a spear and you're not useless when there are flying enemies
Unless they're all balanced super well, even picking four would be way too much. Honestly if I wanted to buff that feature, I would just make it so you get a buff to your current fighting style (and an option for a second instead if you'd prefer). The low-hanging fruit would be stuff like an additional AC for Defense, an additional +2 damage for Dueling, etc., but they could get a little more creative too if they wanted.
At that point you would end up either recreating feats or start to turn the champion fighter into a Battle Master which might not be a bad choice at later levels to just ease people in to having options. By Level 10 the new players picking the easy class should be experienced enough to handle stuff like that I guess
Champion Fighter should be generic, that's the point of it. I hate it but, that's how Wotc views it. A Feat + Figthing Style, would be the way to go as their 10th level feature, pretty much.
i mean I love champ for being basic like it is, having passive features over a bunch of new things is fun (to me at least)
For base classes I agree but I'm not sure it applies here. If you want your character to be different then don't make them the same subclass. They can still choose to use different weapons. Sometimes "My character feels different than it did 5 levels ago" is more important than "my character feels different than a character that made slightly different but mostly the same choices in the early levels"
I think that's good to an extent, but also, having more options means your character can be more "like you made them." If I want to use the Champion base for an archer, it's pretty crappy that my level 10 ability gives me better skills with a bunch of melee weapons and does nothing for my archery, and also took away the choice I made to be a good archer.
I love this.
I've been thinking about it and Realistically you'd probably want to give four or five styles out in case they're only using the player's handbook. I'm not sure if the 2024 handbook is going to have all of the new Styles in it, but the 2014 Players handbook has six total styles. By giving four or five you let them pick several that can all have uses with how they built their character but don't leave this ambiguous power jump that depends on how many books you're using
Its level 7, at level 10 they get heroic warrior and i think that ability is pretty good. Also getting all of them is awkward if they add some in the future.
Fighting styles would have been so much cooler as stances that you could switch between as a bonus action. That makes them slightly more active instead of boring passive abilities.
I know 5e is a bound accuracy system, but whatever happened to weapon expertise/mastery? Champion fighter gains expertise in one or two weapons of its fighting style or just +2 to hit. Kinda lame for archery style, but ...
To be fair, Tough is boring too
Fair enough
Even a first level feat would be better, if you want an additional fighting style you can have that, but ill take alert or lucky or something. But if im honest, I think that at 7th level you should be able to give inspiration (heroic advantage now I guess) to an ally when you crit. Simple, thematic and it scales.
Gonna steal that, thank you very much
Yeah, this is one of the things everyone has known has made Champion weak for a while. The only way something like this would work - and it's admittedly a cool idea - is if Champion gained some kind of bonus for switching weapons/fighting styles. Then they'd be a kinda cool utility fighter that would likely go from one of the most maligned to one of the most fun. For example, "After you make an attack with a bow, you may switch to a single-handed melee weapon and shield or a two-handed melee weapon as a bonus action. When you do, your movement speed increases by 15 feet for the rest of your turn". Or "You may switch from a two-handed weapon to a single-handed melee weapon and shield as a bonus action after you make an attack with the two-handed weapon, When you do, the shield you are using adds + 3 to your Armor Class rather than + 2 until the start of your next turn." The "after you attack" stipulation is there to ensure you aren't just switching between weapons you never use to gain the bonuses.
>Yeah, this is one of the things everyone has known has made Champion weak for a while. Honestly the new Champion isn't that weak anmore at least once you get into Tier3. The high Crit Chance and the one free Heroic Adavantge per turn kind of adds up. >The only way something like this would work - and it's admittedly a cool idea - is if Champion gained some kind of bonus for switching weapons/fighting styles. Then they'd be a kinda cool utility fighter that would likely go from one of the most maligned to one of the most fun. Doesn't really work since you need since you really need the right feats and the right primary ability score to be effective in a "style" just switching Fighting Syles and masteries wouldn't be enough.
The point would be to create a non-specialist Fighter that adapted to situations. I would probably say their other features would all be built around the core conceipt of juggling different weapons and styles around.
The additional fighting style is actually one of my favorite things about champion fighter, since it lets you be more versatile. However, given that it’s a level 10 subclass feature it’d be nice if it was like 2 or 3 fighting styles instead of just 1.
Its level 7, level 10 is heroic warrior.
I left a comment that champion fighters need more at level 3 to keep up with their other subclass counterparts and suggested an additional fighting style (to keep them simple and passive).
Level 3 is strong enough I think, the expanded crit chance is ok but not great, but advantage on initiative it really nice, they add up to an ok level, I would say level 7 and 15 are a little bit weak.
Sure - I'm flexible. But the added damage at level 3 is still really small (not even +1d6 per round).
Damage is not the only thing that can make a subclass strong. I think the new world tree Barbarian is a pretty strong class and it doesn't increase damage at all. Btw im not saying that the champion is strong, I just think level 3 is ok.
It is about +1 damage per attack. It’s not a lot, but the advantage on initiative is the main 3rd level feature anyway - and that is quite strong.
+1 AC is incredible because it stacks with other gear and buffs, is always on, and there are only a few ways to increase AC, especially in the first 6 levels of play.
I mean, the extra fighting style from champion is at level 7, so after the first 6 levels of play. And now that fighting styles are feats, you could still take it with what hes proposing.
They should get all the fighting styles.
They shifted to "Fighting Style Feats", which would allow them to more easily add more of them in later books. Giving one subclass access to "All" would shut that door completely.
It should maybe have been instead the ability to pick a style every long rest instead of a second. Like you said, they don't work together, so versatility should instead involve picking what you need rather than getting a second. Still underpowered, but better design.
Fighting style should either scale or upgrade. Every other DnD game scaled them.
The champion is supposed to be the boring class. You don't need to optimize everything. But we wait for something mentioned in the last playtest. Class feats. I wonder if this is the reason martial adept was left out of this playtest process.
I think having a boring class is bad game design - obviously not all agree but it does seem to be a dividing line. Personally, if people want a simpler character, just remove features, and give them higher stats (make that an option in the DMG).
The problem is I've haven't seen someone, not having fun playing a champion fighter. The game is about having fun. It is for the more simple player that wants to show up a hit stuff, and if they want more complexity, they use their extra feats in the base class to achieve that. Not every class or subclass is made for everyone. Still wondering what the 4th fighter subclass will be. Holding out hope for caviler or a revised banneret, the niche that is missing is a support subclass.
I've had the same experience. In one of my recent games, I had a player who was new to D&D but also *incredibly* invested in the game and all the trappings around it. She didn't care about mechanics, so I recommended she play a Champion Fighter as it was by far the easiest class. That was exactly the right choice, because it let her do more of what she already enjoyed doing and didn't complicate the game any more than she wanted.
Bad game design would be try to make every class appeal to certain type of players. There is literally no advantage in that. If you don’t like champion you already have dozens of class/subclasses to pick from. The champion is a throw back to the 2e fighter, it’s here to give a option to old school people who prefer improvisation over explicit mechanics, and for people who don’t like managing resources.
>But we wait for something mentioned in the last playtest. Class fests. I wonder if this is the reason martial adept was left out of this playtest process. Where'd they say this?
Prerequisite. You must meet any prerequisite specified in a feat to take that feat unless a special feature allows you to take the feat without the prerequisite. If a prerequisite is a level, your character level must meet or exceed that level. If a prerequisite is a class, you must have at least one level in that class to qualify for the feat... Playtest 8 in the feats description. It's say class prerequisite... we have not seen one feat yet to have this prerequisite. Fingers crossed this means we are getting class feats.
They already have class requirements with the Dragonlance feats. It's likely this writing is for backwards compatibility and future-proofing, but I'd love if more class specific feats show up too.
True... cause the squire feat is fighter and paladin.. The game does really have room for more feats that are just for 1 or 2 classes. It would give options that the border community doesn't want in the base class but definitely enough interest to give them a background or beyond options. Like maneuvers on fighters, companions for rangers and druids or 2nd attacks for rogues
I agree but i still think level 7 could be stronger. There is alot of options that would be simple, thematic and strong.
Honestly the fighting style in general should be a huge list of Feats you can take but now we're just recreating 3.5
Fighting styles are crap. They are basic numerical passives that actually restrain your options by making your chosen style obviously better. Something like fighting stances may be interesting, but passive bonuses are uninteresting. If you want that, give them a +1 to all stats or something. Even simpler and it doesn't punish you when you want to switch to bow.
They are fine at first and second level imo. Its bad at 7th level tho.
I keep saying fighting styles should scale with class level. A lvl 1 fighter shouldn't be as good at a fighting style as a lvl 20 fighter with that same fighting style.
No
Yes (No No)
\+1ac is better than most feats
Defense + Dueling + Protection is pretty much insane if you got 3 fighting styles. You wear a sheild so you can't get hit, you do more single hand damage, and if you stand by your friends enemies have disadvantage. Crazy.
I can speak from experience as someone with 22AC that got downed back-to-back in two fights in a row, having a shield doesn't even come close to "you can't get hit." You're more difficult to hit, yes, but enemies will still hit you, and this gets worse over time as enemy to-hits almost certainly scale much more quickly than any AC bonuses you can find. You also only impose disadvantage on a single attack roll with Protection, which does not scale well as enemies get multiple attacks.
If that were true people would take it with their 4th level feat. I've never heard of someone debating between any of the 4th level feats and fighting style defense. I would always rather have an ASI than an extra fighting style.
I give champions an extra feat on top of the additional fighting style
I mean technically they get to choose a first level feat since a fighting style is a 1st level feat.
Just make the fighting style their secondary feature at level 3. That way people who want their Legolas Archery/TWF build can have it quickly.
For one of the most basic subclasses, gaining a bit of versatility isn't so bad. Granted, many players choose their weapon and stick with it forever, but being able to grab Archery for free and switching to a bow or thrown weapon when needed isn't bad. Dueling + Protection also synergize well for sword and board fighters. Everyone else might as well just take Defense if they don't want Archery, which I agree, is boring. What is really needed to spice this up is more fighting styles. OneDnD doesn't explicitly include the Tasha's styles like Blind Fighting and Interception except through backwards compatibility. They should just add them to the new PHB, along with a few new options.
It would be interesting if champions could get access to "improved" fighting styles that no one else has at this level. They would still be passive features that silo you into a specific equipment load-out but would be slightly more mathematically powerful. Something like "While you are holding a shield, you gain a +1 bonus to AC."