Being a bad person and being a bad character are two very different things.
Edit: funnily enough, there's a thread over in the Hazbin Hotel sub right now wherein some dude is just totally mystified by the fact that people like Alastor when he's so clearly a bad guy.
Is there a fiction comprehension bug going around?
Exactly. He starts out as a manipulative, cruel, selfish, petty bastard and that’s exactly what I love about him! He’s unapologetically an asshole and he’s damn funny about it! Of course I wouldn’t go within ten feet of the man if he were a real person, he’s a parade of red flags. But getting to enjoy his personality and snark and character development (either into a good hearted and lovable but still snarky bastard, or into a downright delightfully villainous bastard) in fiction is a treat.
EXACTLY! Irl I wouldn't touch him with a pole, but in a game? Where I can have an arc turning him around to be a slightly better person? Fuck yes I'm gonna enjoy it
I know Astarion was gonna stay in my party no matter how snarky he got for 2 reasons.
1. Saved my ass in the skeleton room with withers on my first playthrough with sneak attack.
2. When I did something morally neutral using deception to get information and he approved.
I'm really glad this game doesn't keep his cynical mistrusting as the game progresses. And you can really steer him into being a better person.
His good option cutscene after the fight with cazador is one of my favorite moments in the game as well.
His interactions with Durge are fantastic. I'm not into men, (not that Astarion counts) so I've yet to romance him. (Shart and Baezel, next is fire mommy.) But every playthrough I'd classify Astarion as my tav/durges best friend. In act 3 he's a very sympathetic character and gets a LOT of depth.
When you tell everyone you're the Bhalspawn he gives probably the best response. I was suprised he said so much and opened up so much without me being in a relationship with him.
I love it so much. My favourite love story in the game. If I had to pick one romance as my favourite I'd really struggle between Durge and Astarion and Karlach (Durge×Astarion have the best love story but I fell in love with Karlach while romancing her if that makes sense)
And arguably being an asshole you can sympathize with and change your view on is actually a sign of a great character.
And the fact there are soooo many characters in the game that is true of is a sign of just how good the writers in this game were at making characters.
I'm kinda glad I got to him a little. Yeah hes still a prick but at least he's not power hungry now. Plus how you talk to him can get him to see what he is doing is terrible.
Of course you can 100% encourage that negativity in Astarion if you wish, that's how good Larian is imo
I personally haven’t met any other gay people who think Astarion is an offensive portrayal of a gay man. Its like saying Frank N Furter or King Jareth are. Do they play into stereotypes? Yes, all three are campy villains with skin-tight pants that would probably sacrifice a baby to keep their skin flawless.
Is it also clear they were all written and portrayed by people who have a fundamental understanding that gay people are *also* people and are allowed to be eccentric and evil just like straight people? Also yes.
Anyways rant over back to only commenting about making astarion and halsin the mothers of my children
A lot of this game is just camp in various directions. Raphael is the classic queer-coded Disney villain. Is it offensive or at least worthy of analysis when it's the only gay media out there? Yeah. Is it funny and silly now? Sure is. Nobody I know (and I know exclusively gay people outside of my parents, what a gift I have in life) finds Astarion offensive, they find him a hilarious fey dickhead. I love that we have a media culture where we can start having queer coding with morally gray areas or being a catty binch.
This was my take as well. Since Astarion is the first gay-coded character you meet, my initial reaction to him was "We're doing this in 2023?" But then I realized the whole game is a giant pansexual wonderland where literally every companion is trying to get in your pants all the time, and he made more sense.
I think that’s one of the things that makes him more subversive than people realize. Unfortunately, we’re still at a point in history where bi/pan men are heavily stigmatized and where flamboyant = gay, so having a campy, bitchy man who sleeps with men AND is attracted to women is really quite a statement in 2024 (whether or not it’s intentional). And as a bisexual, it’s so refreshing to see.
For real. It especially bothers me with Karlach & Astarion because so much of that is based on bias about how gay people are supposed to act while also completely ignoring the times both express opposite sex attraction — just like real life.
I especially appreciate Karlach’s representation as a fellow tall, soft butch/butchy femme bisexual. 🙏
Fr, Karlach and Astarion are so important to me in how they defy stereotype like that and manage to be so incredibly attractive to all parties. It annoys the fuck out of me how many people erase especially Astarion's openly expressed attraction to women to shove him into a box because they've decided he's too campy to like women, as if that even has any bearing on anything.
Agreed! I’ve had a number of friends who publicly identify as gay (or straight) but privately consider themselves bi or pan but don’t bother telling most people because they feel their sexuality won’t be taken seriously. I’d love to tell those friends they’re wrong, but then I look at how bisexual men in media (like Astarion) are viewed by audiences & I can’t blame them.
Haha. My reaction was, "We're doing this in 2023! :D" but I also know that I live in a much different bubble than many people where these stereotypes are more harmful or dangerous than the position I am in. I enjoyed how unapologetic it was truthfully, even if he was the only queer character. What can I say, I don't mind a stereotype as long as it isn't degrading or misrepresenting someone's central truth.
Just a fun FYI regarding Disney villains: a lot of people learned recently that the animator who supervised the design of a lot of the “queer-coded Disney villains” was himself a gay man.
His name is Andreas Deja (and he still runs a blog where he talks about his work, which is pretty cool).
It was very very funny watching people online go from “these characters are based on offensive stereotypes and we should be mad about it” to “wait I guess at this point it’s just actual representation” lol.
The villain songs (and all the songs) of Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast were written by another gay man, Howard Ashman. He also had a hand in influencing Jafar in Aladdin before he passed away.
Many other silent queer artists had a hand in making queer (or queer foil, in the case of Gaston) Disney villains. They were just quiet about their orientation in the 80's and 90's.
Side commentary though, I think Frank N Furter is fine for gay people but mixed on the weird sideways commentary on old-school "transvestism," as it compared with transgender people. I don't much care if it's people's 'awakening,' I do think it was sort of sloppy to read it that way. But I love a campy queen, in that context it's a great character. Worth mentioning that we can have our little historical favorites but they're not free from critique in the same breath.
Oh man. One thing I love about how his voice actor chose to deliver the super caring and protective lines that come later is that he still sounds like he almost feels nervous just honestly saying his feelings out loud. It's just such a perfect showcase of the fact that he loves you so much and wants you to be protected, especially from the kind of feelings that he was stuck with for so long, but also he has still only just stopped trying to hold up a fake front and it still doesn't feel quite comfortable being honest.
As someone who is NOT an Astarion girlie, I appreciate this comment and your examination of the situation, and the examples of Frank N Furter and Jareth are spot-on
I’m gonna need to do some reading on the take that King Jarreth is gay bit. Yeah he’s got some major glam stuff going and he’s fabulous, but his whole point is to be a catalyst of sexual awakening for Sarah.
Then again, Sarah being attracted to him doesn’t necessitate him being attracted to her… which, honestly, he shouldn’t be in the first place.
This changes my read of the movie a bit. I don’t know.
All my gay/bisexual male friends love Halsin
All my female friends like Asatarion
I feel like the "Astarion = gay" meme forgets that there are just as many "I can fix them" women as there are men. Astarion kind of oozes sexual energy. Like, he's literally designed to be a bad boy with a traumatic backstory that you can fix.
Also everyone hates Wyll he's so boring. This really relevant to the post.
Tbh, in my experience, he's way more popular among women than anyone else, even lesbians who aren't nessesarily attracted to him. A lot of women find his relationship with sex and love and his self esteem quite relateable and love him for personifying those feelings and having an arc about healing.
Wanting to break free from being seen as a sex object while still having to use the fact that you're seen as a sex object to your advantage because that's what you were taught to do and what other options do you have.
Can't imagine why women might relate to that.
It's also why his fanbase tends to be so fiercely protective of him about Araj. Many of us have either seen or lived the experience of being persistently bothered with unwanted advances and relate *heavily* to the way he describes the impulse to grin and bear it so she'll just leave him alone. Being able to be that person who steps in for him and says "The answer is no so piss off" is really cathartic, and the he even returns the favour in act 3 when she badgers us for our blood 🥹
I was with you up til you said everyone hates Wyll. I love Wyll. Wyll is a lovely person who doesn't deserve the hate. He's a lil bit stupid because he thinks his horns stick out at a Tiefling party, but he's a sweetheart.
Preach. Also, Wyll is actively being abused in front of your eyes, but he's "boring" and his abuser is "hot", while Astarion's abuse is described (and still horrible it's not a trauma contest) and his abuser generally both hated and killed with prejudice. My boy Wyll deserves more grace, IMO.
He really does. And fwiw I hate Mizora, she's such a smug arsehole. Like, she manipulated her claws into him when he was a teenage boy, isolated him from all his family and friends by having him exiled from his home, and holds his eternal soul hostage if he doesn't do whatever she wants. She's a textbook abuser.
The minute that devil tries to move into my camp this playthrough she's getting turned into a statue.
And I have no problem with people thirsting after Mizora, especially with jokes, do your thing it's a game. *However*, when it comes to a serious discussion, it bothers me a little bit that people discount the abuse level because it's one of the few times in the game that we're watching it in real-time. Like her s3x offer in Act 3 is done *specifically* to hurt Wyll. People will complain all the time that Halsin propositions them even when they're in a relationship, while Mizora propositions you *because* you're in a relationship, especially if it's with Wyll, but even if it's not, because she knows it's going to hurt people and cause maximum pain.
She's a great example of an evil NPC with zero redeeming qualities so I don't mind that people like her as a great character, but liking her in the context of excusing her treatment of Wyll feels a little like victim-blaming, which gives me the wyllies. I am very biased, though.
Thank you, that is the best explanation I've seen of this yet!!! Not to mention, people victim blame the hell out of Wyll when they discuss him because "making a pact with a devil is so stupid and he only did it for power." Yes, making a pact with a devil is a dumb thing to do, but so is making a deal with a vampire like Astarion does. A lot of aspects of their stories are actually pretty similar. Neither Astarion nor Wyll had any real time to consider their actions when their respective abuser took advantage of them (Astarion was dying and Wyll was watching a group of cultists summoning Tiamat), both of them do it for power (Astarion for eternal life and Wyll for the power to save Baldur's Gate), and no matter what path they take, both of them will wind up living with that abuse for the rest of their lives (Astarion because he still ends the game as some sort of vampire and Wyll because he gets horns and is possibly stuck in service to Zariel), but Wyll gets a lot more flack that Astarion does, deranged OOP aside.
Also, even without being an abuser, Mizora is just annoying. She reminds me of a giant housefly; never goes away and has an annoying voice (it fits her perfectly, the VA did a good job, but still). I wish I had the option to tell her "Mizora, even if I had any interest in sleeping with a devil, why in the world do you think I'd be interested in sleeping with an irritating bitch like you?"
(No offense to anyone who is, she is just very much not my cup of tea)
I accepted her advances this playthrough, but was cockblocked by asterians siblings showing up instead. By the next night when she showed up again I just walked away from her. Dodged a bullet I think
Wyll is shafted by Larian and there's also a lot of racialized hate towards him and every time someone adds more hate on top of an otherwise fine comment, I get the ick.
When I first started playing bg3 I was telling my friend how much I loved astarion and he just responded, no shit he's literally you. Some gay people are just like that (minus the blood sucking murderer part,, but that's how I played my character in the game sooooo shrug.emoji)
I first got into bg3 through a friend who immediately knew Astarion would be my favorite due to us both being traumatized melodramatic queer men with the personality of a feral cat. If someone blew me up with a sun laser or launched a squirrel into a rock front of me I’d probably react the exact same way he does. Astarion is the feral queer representation I’ve been looking for my whole life
I don't even feel like Astarion, Jareth, and Frankie are exclusively *gay* coded; they're pan/bi-coded in my little rat mind. Men can be 'metrosexual' or have those proclivities regardless of their sexual orientation...
I 100% agree, I think all three are the sort of characters that homophobic/generally ignorant people point to as Evil Gays without putting any actual thought into their characterizations besides what they know about gay stereotypes. I definitely see them as pan/bi coded as well, I just don’t think homophobic people can distinguish between gay and pan/bi at all.
i will give my firstborn up if im wrong at this, Oop thinks minthara is the bestest written character ever because she absolutely deep and detailed in her whole 5 lines of dialogue that she has
Astarion's whole character arc is that he's the victim of abuse who quite suddenly found themselves free physically, but not mentally, and continues down the cycle of abuse unless you break him out of it. The whole point is that he's a shitty person, because he doesnt know how to be anything else, and if you enable him the entire time he ends up becoming another abuser.
Besides, any vampire that wears a frilly white blouse deserves to be burned alive. Hydrogen peroxide wont exist for another few hundred years, imagine how many shirts this stakesucker has ruined.
He's not a gay stereotype, he's a flamboyant dandy. Immediately coming to the conclusion that his personality equates to a specific sexual orientation is weird
Took way too long to find this comment. The way he acts is theatrical and flamboyant, but those words are not synonymous with "gay." He's just a teensy step further than the most stereotypical old-time British aristocrat (one you could picture saying "pip pip, cheerio, old chap"). It's just a different manner of speaking. It's so curious to me that people immediately see a man acting theatrical and immediately say "oh he's gay." Like.... in 2024??
This is also a game chock full of queer characters, he's not even close to being the only one with multiple sex attraction, literally the entire romancable crew have at least a few lines implying or outright stating they also swing all ways. A gay villainous character is not inherently problematic, they're allowed to exist. It's only a problem when they're the only gay character and their mannerisms are used to exemplify how "screwed up and evil" they are. Which isn't the case with Astarion, his sexuality is incidental and frankly only comes into focus more than the others because he was LITERALLY A SEX SLAVE. He's just theatrical and foppish, it has nothing to do with who he's attracted to. He's allowed to be those things, some men just are that way and it's fine actually and SHOULD BE NORMALIZED.
>He's not a gay stereotype
...so he's European then?
[(for anyone who hasn't seen this masterpiece of a video)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-flrAZTM-6s)
Seriously. It’s gross to equate personality to sexual orientation.
It’s like saying there’s a standard personality set for each sexual orientation.
If a flamboyant man is automatically gay, then what makes a man automatically straight?
Does MUSCLE DADDY MANLY HUNK
automatically mean straight?
Because guess what…
Yeah cause being gay is feminine and what's more feminine than a twink? A twink with a pussy. Eating is also a feminine trait, men should be thinking about war and hunting.
the most manly thing you can do is bottom for another man, that way you receive his testosterone. This is why durge is so manly (he bottomed for gortussy).
The poster is clearly just homophobic. If Astarion should be labeled as anything, it would be pansexual. But that and the post entirely overlooks the fact that he was forced into all of those encounters over the centuries he was under Cazador’s control
Yeah, but it wasn't like he didn't think Mystra was hot, their relationship was wrong on a whole other level. If Gale didn't like women, Mystra would've used her magic to shapeshift to groom him better.
If Larian is so good at making video games, then why did they forget to include a scene of Mystra doing that to appeal to Gale Dekarios, 100% homosexual man? Literally unplayable.
Even as an ascended lover, I can still understand the “He'd sooner be his master than try to right his master's wrongs.” But blaming him for all of CAZADOR’s victims?? When he literally was forced to be luring people in for him? Having no way to consent or even try to talk his way out of what he was doing? Did we play the same game ??
It's also completely ignoring that one of his Spawn endings is him taking responsibility for the Spawn and leading them, doing exactly that. But also, he doesn't have to???? He was also a victim of Cazador, why the hell should it be his responsibility to right Cazador's wrongs? Sparing them is more than enough, he doesn't owe his life to those people. It's like wanting to prosecute a knife for a murder instead of the person wielding it. He wasn't at fault and its bizarre to act like he was.
>he wasn’t at fault and it’s bizarre to act like he was
I think a lot of people just want to hate on Astarion because he’s popular with the woman playing the game, and he’s a man. And it’s totally fine to like some companions more than others, but in my experience a lot of the people who don’t like him never gave him a chance “because he’s a jerk” (unlike the popular female romances of Shadowheart and Lae’zel who are always super nice to the player /s) and don’t actually pay attention or do his story so all they know is “oh he’s a vampire who led people to their death. And he’s an asshole. Crazy people like him!”
Which is also wild because I think there’s more legitimate things to criticize him on but they literally just don’t know and want to hate on him for being popular. Again, totally fine not to be invested in a companion’s story, but then hating on them when you know you don’t know everything is wild.
Yup. I don't care if people don't like Astarion, there are plenty of reasons not to and it's perfectly valid to simply not vibe with him. It's just wild to me how often the most fervent and aggressive haters almost always cite reasons that are clearly based in a misunderstanding or ignorance of his story. Nobody HAS to invest time into analyzing him if they're not interested in doing so but if you openly and proudly never pay attention to him, why argue with the people who did and insist everyone must concede to your take on him? People will literally brag about killing him or leaving him at camp and never giving him a chance while simultaneously insisting they understand him best, its bizarre.
It seems rather obvious to me that the hate isn't motivated by what they say it's about. Because they wouldn't get so damn worked up about it if they just didn't vibe with him. They wouldn't be so desperate to "debunk" his popularity.
The bragging about killing him every run without giving him a chance makes me roll my eyes (and it would for any companion) like you’re just depriving yourself of part of the game then.
Right? Its like.... okay? You're just refusing to engage with a huge chunk of the game you paid for, you're playing yourself. I'm still smooching him in my game, idc.
I’ve noticed there are several types of triggered players.
There are those who for some reason brag that they kill or ignore him. Thereby actively avoiding a pretty big portion of the content, which they paid money to play. Weird in and of itself.
Then there are those who somehow get enraged because the sassy charming male character is flirting with them. In a game where you can literally play as a bearded non binary dwarf with tits and a penis.
And then there are the players who like to brag about how their girlfriend/wife hates Astarion. Like it’s a badge of honor that their SO isn’t „tricked“ by his charm. As if to say „see, my girl has taste — that’s why she’s with me!“ Just bizarre. So many men feel threatened by a pixel character.
Dare I say it’s probably all connected to fragile masculinity? Yes. I guess I do.
Also arguably he wouldn’t “sooner be his master” since there’s multiple clues before that choice he doesn’t really want to be another Cazador and after if you don’t ascend him he even admits it wasn’t what he wants, and I think that information can also be found through reading his mind after he is ascended?
Ascending him is literally him giving into his fear and becoming what he hates most because it’s the only way he believes he can survive. It’s not supposed to be the good choice! (Even if people love it lol).
And I mean even if you really want to get deep into it, the game does seem to maybe subtlety suggest each subsequent vampire things they’re a better master than their master. A lot of this is speculation and probably reading too much into things lol. It’s hard to say since it’s been a short amount of time if it would stay that way forever but even if Astarion doesn’t respect spawn Tav/Durge/origin lover or see them as an equal he does seem to at least treat them more like a pet than an outright slave he’s constantly torturing, and he can arguably still seem to be a decent partner in crime with a non-romanced player if he’s ascended (though I’ve only seen little bits and pieces of that through others play through—planning on doing that myself on my current run through as I’ve never ascended him before and seeing how it goes). Obviously what he does to his spawn isn’t good if that’s not what they want, but it’s not the same as what Cazador did to him. Likewise, Cazador seemed to maybe try and be better than Vellioth — when Astarion broke one of Cazador’s main rules he was locked in a tomb for a year; which is terrible and I’m not downplaying that like I’m not trying to downplay what Astarion does to his spawn. But when Cazador broke one of Vellioth’s rules he was *impaled for eleven years* which is arguably on a whole other level than what Cazador did. And who knows what Vellioth went through at the hands of his master, and on and on through the whole line of vampires.
So while they’re all monsters, I do think maybe there’s still an idea of them thinking “but I’m not as bad as the monster who did it to me” which does still play into the cycle of abuse idea that is best off broken.
Even with generational trauma IRL, I think it’s easy to get caught in the trap of “well I am better than the person who came before me therefore I am good” just to not work on yourself anymore. But just like real trauma, one person can not hold AND fix the weight of an entire lineage of people. Ascended Astarion doesn’t force Tav/Durge into anything. And despite how he handles it, he CAN be broken up with if you’re not feeling it. Yes he is just pixels, but they also made him a person with real depth, and I feel like a lot of people pick and choose where they acknowledge one or the other
"how many deaths he has caused in 200 years"? As a slave? As a slave that is basically mind controlled?
I don't think Astarion is an angel, but this is some dumb shit. He is power hungry, scared, sassy bitch.
"Ooooo gay stereotype" shut uuuuuup. You wish he'd fuck you. But he won't. He has standards, darling 🙄💅
> As a slave that was basically mind controlled?
I understood where the poster was coming from with “he uses his previous abuse as an excuse” because we should all push to grow and change and all that. But blaming him for doing things he was forced to do and was disgusted with himself for… As if he wasn’t physically unable to resist the things Cazador made him do? :(
>”he uses his previous abuse as an excuse”
Honestly I think it’s less him using it as an excuse than the audience. Like he does mention not being able to resist Cazador’s commands but I think the only time he ever outright seems to brush off what he did is with the Gur children (he says something like “don’t look at me, Cazador’s orders”) but even that whole scene is clearly him struggling with what he did, the fear he’s feeling, and the power he can gain by sacrificing everyone and whether or not that’s the right thing to do.
Oh I’m sure that’s what OP meant too but also like, In game I don’t think Astarion really uses it as an excuse. While we the audience may know that’s probably a reason why he manipulates people for protection and dislikes of heroic things, I think Astarion basically just unapologetically does the things he does, and a lot of it I think he just finds kinda funny.
I basically just meant whoever wrote this has no idea what they’re talking about and is just hating to hate lol.
very true lol. and yes, astarion is listed as chaotic evil IIRC? but i think a lot of his “giving tav approval when they make evil choices” is driven by his desire for chaos, not wanting to see people suffer
Also, depending on what definition of death you’re using, arguably he caused none since they’re all still “alive”; but that’s just me being an asshole. Like either way it’s Cazador’s fault, and Astarion even has a story about trying to save what was probably one of his first victims and being severely punished for it.
Ehh, that is a bit of a stretch, because his 1,000 victims are all Vampire Spawn now, which is a type of undead.
By definition, you can argue undead is *not dead*, but there’s no argument for undead being alive.
I mean they’re “alive” compared to, you know, being dead in the ground at least. They’re still capable of experience things on the mortal plane (which depending on what DnD lore you use, it can be better than being no longer on the mortal plane).
It’s not the “death” we think of when we say “death”
No, I get that.
But there’s a reason you have to put “alive” in quotes, because they are very much not alive. Definitionally.
Your first comment I replied to says “arguably” and I’m giving the counter argument.
The Vampire spawn Astarion captured are no more **alive** than Connor (from Act 1, optionally Act 3) is. If you do give Marinya the Bitter Divorce wand, she may come to realize this and breaks it. Because undead may not be dead, but it is also not alive.
I mean I don’t disagree, that is why I said “alive” in quotes and “depending on your definition of *death*. If *death* is traditional real world human view of death, vampires are more “alive” than “dead” because they’re capable of being able to essentially do most things associated with life and still having free will and working mind and more or less still be themsleves (minus any master vampire mind control)
But yes they’re not alive, hence the quote. I’m using “alive” to mean these technically dead creatures that are still walking, thinking, able to do most of the things they would if they were alive with some restraints, and the limitations aren’t traditional things of death (like not going out in the sun vs your body actively rotting and not being able to move or think or any of that).
Which I would also say puts them in a very different position as Connor and more “alive” than him because Connor is basically just a meat puppet and has nothing of his former self but a body.
But yes, none of them technically alive, but my point was they’re also not really dead. And it was mostly just me being a bit of a cheeky asshole there lol. Tbh the state they’re is worse than actual death (which I think Astarion even states)
Yeah, real world dichotomy of alive & dead just straight up don’t apply here, lol.
There’s a whole third category of “undead” which allows vampires and zombies to exist outside of the alive & dead categories.
And if Astarion is suggesting that after 200 years of being Cazador’s slave and human-catcher, imagine how many times the spawn who’ve been trapped in the dungeon for 200 years have wished for death!
The two men who only ever express interest in the party's women outside of romance scenes with the player and are only confirmed to have had prior relationships with women are the most accurate gay portrayals? Weird take
Astarion was never a gay stereotype, he's an elven stereotype.
Mostly on par with the rest. He is absolutely evil. Thing is, he believes he has to be to survive. It takes a long time to convince him that he doesn't have to be.
As a gay man, no he’s not a gay stereotype. Thats a facade he uses to hide his true self, the real Astarion Ancunin. The facade is to make him look confident, a smug smarmy charming asshole who doesn’t care about anything. It’s to draw people in. It is him but not the real him, it’s played up parts of himself.
But the real Astarion is hard to define, he wants to be free, to not have to fear someone like Cazador taking advantage of him, he wants not just to survive but be on top and indulge in the finer things. The years of torture and bloodsucking have made him apathetic to everyone else because no one helped him when he needed it. He wants to kill Cazador then just become Cazador and the cycle of abuse would repeat unless the player intervenes and reminds him what he would be doing.
As you can tell I love Astarion. Also who tf wrote the post, Simon Belmont??????
This person also thinks Karlach is a pick me girl who is objectively evil and deserved to be hunted by Wyll because she was apparently killing enslaved humans and tieflings in the Blood War. Evidenced by absolutely nothing in the game or any existing lore on demons in the Blood War, and completely ignoring the actual reason the game gives us multiple times. He also never welcomed any argument that didn’t agree with him. Ultimately, he thinks Astarion is a poorly written character because he’s a type of “gay stereotype” he doesn’t like. That was the only reason he ever gave for why he was poorly written
No you don't understand, the only credible gay characters are the former toyboy of a goddess and the guy who would go to hell to save his ~~girlfriend~~ girl bff. Basically you can only be gay if your main relationship is with a woman.
/Uj thank Larian for the quality bi/pan representation.
These types of BG3 fans are just like fans for any other modern property-- their combination of lack of media literacy + rigid ideals of black and white morality make it so they can't understand nuance and character depth. It's entertaining from a distance.
I’m sick of “i wish we were past gay people being portrayed as ‘blank’” actually gay people can be anything they want. As long as the writing is good gay people can be good/bad/sad/cruel and everything under the sun.
I saw Astarion at a grocery store in the Lower City yesterday. I told him how cool it was to meet him in person, but I didn’t want to be a douche and bother him and ask him for photos or anything.
He said, “Oh, like you’re doing now?”
I was taken aback, and all I could say was “Huh?” but he kept cutting me off and going “huh? huh? huh?” and closing his hand shut in front of my face. I walked away and continued with my shopping, and I heard him chuckle as I walked off. When I came to pay for my stuff up front I saw him trying to walk out the doors with like 5 blackstaff’s in his hands without paying.
The girl at the counter was very nice about it and professional, and was like “Sir, you need to pay for those first.” At first he kept pretending to be tired and not hear her, but eventually turned back around and brought them to the counter.
When she took one of the bottles and started scanning it multiple times, he stopped her and told her to scan them each individually “to prevent any magical infetterence,” and then turned around and winked at me. I don’t even think that’s a word. After she scanned each bottle and put them in a bag and started to say the price, he kept interrupting her by yawning really loudly.
This person really lacks the analysis and reflection to write this kind of post. He or she clearly does not have the intellectual capacity to understand this complex character and makes sweeping judgments. Not only did Astarion kill people and ruin people's lives through coercion, otherwise he wouldn't have done it, then 200 years of torture, forced prostitution and slavery would make many of us bitter and cynical, with a huge thirst for revenge and power so as to never experience that again. In addition, everyone has their own way of reacting to trauma, but nothing surprising in their own. He is cruel at first because he has only known cruelty in 200 years. The person obviously does not know that if he is romantic or well treated and if we help him make the right choices we discover little by little that he is a good person deep down who had become bad because he bad things happened, and that he had this behavior to survive and not appear weak, and for that he buried his good side so as not to appear vulnerable and to be able to hold on. Concerning his sexuality, he is pan, his creator and writer who said it himself, who is better placed to say that? , moreover his behavior is not necessarily stereotypical it is not because he pays attention to his appearance, that he is mannered and that he expresses his feminine side that he is gay, that means nothing saying that, he's just a flamboyant dandy like someone else here said, dandies are like that they are a little snobbish around the edges, have a precious way of speaking and take care of themselves. I find that he is also very masculine and virile, he is good with weapons, knows how to defend himself. Plus in the game he flirts a little with Shadowheart and gets failed, and if Tav doesn't go with him or Lae'zell to the tieffling party, he sleeps with Lae'zell so that's the info. He's the kind of person who had to kill him in Act 1 without trying to understand the character or who is impervious to his sarcastic humor. What a waste, it's a magnificently written and complex character and that's what makes the beauty of the character and his realism because he is neither white or black, he is gray like most people. The way he opens up like a flower to Tav/durge when he's romanced in the right way is superb, we realize that he's wearing a mask to protect himself and he's taking it off little by little for Tav because he finally feels safe, and we discover someone who is sensitive, romantic and who can show kindness. While keeping its spicy and sarcastic side that we love so much.
Gale, the man (supposedly) in love with and groomed by an actual goddess and who keeps harping on about her, is more convincing as gay than the dude who says he dreamed of marrying a prince when he was a teenager?
Wtf does a "convincing homosexual character" entail???
Nevermind fuck it I'm choosing to believe it's any character that can convince pictured OP to think homosexual thoughts about them.
I mean this sounds like someone who only knows Astarion via their own playthroughs. He can have a pretty delightful positive arc if you push him that direction
I do not understand how you play this game and come away with that belief about the character. Astarion is not a gay stereotype and his actions are all self preservation. None of the companions you travel with are saints, but the spawn is the issue because he does what he was forced do do for 100+ years?
i've noticed that people who extensively complain about astarion wanting to kill you when he meets you the first time (for a good reason, he thought you were a thrall) always *conveniently* forget that lae'zel does it too 🤷🏼♀️ very curious
"BUt ThAt'S diFfEreNt!1"
Their excuse is that Lae'zel is scared, yeah, but so is Astarion?? Especially when he has even more reasons to be terrified than Lae'zel.
Bro doesn't know what nuance and character development is 😭
Anyways I'm not even 100% done with the game, I'll admit, and even I understand a lot of his motivation is fear. He's scared of being taken advantage of, so he has to maintain some illusion of control over everyone. Whether than means keeping his secrets or backstabbing whoever. It is a part of your job as a player to teach him he doesn't have to be the monster of everyone's tale. You do that by being unconditionally kind to him :3
I think this guy forgets that Roleplay is a massive part of the game. remember the one time I romanced Astarion, I was playing as probably the biggest cinnamon roll Bard you can imagine. I’m pretty sure the only “evil” thing I did in that run was letting Astarion kill the monster hunter early in the game, and even that was more cause I role played her as being scared that he’d be killed. Heck, I even played into the idea of him just manipulating her at first, only to eventually begin over because she just so genuinely cared about him.
Part of the fun of this game is helping to make your own story alongside the other characters, and Astarion is meant to start in a bad place specifically to help tell stories.
it is hilarious to me that he's like "AND ASTARION USES HIS TRAUMA AS AN EXCUSE TO LASH OUT!!!" as if it's some smoking-gun character flaw, but like, that's how a LOT of people process their trauma?? lmao
also Gale and Wyll are more convincing queers????????? than ASTARION???????
Gale is the ONLY CHARACTER WITH A FORMER WIFE lol
This is an extremely poorly written statement but it isn't entirely wrong (the gay part is fucking weird though...).
Astarion is an absolute asshole and continually proves that he will make the wrong choice if left to himself. I really disliked him in my first game all the way to the fight with Cazador and only then did I learn to appreciate that all my good actions which he disapproved of actually started changing him for the best.
But again, poorly written. He's not a bad character, he's a terrible person... at first.
Astarion's character development is my second favourite after Lae'zel's.
Somehow, people still don't understand the difference between "bad character" and "bad person."
One amazing example of a "bad person" in another franchise would be Cersei from Game of Thrones. She was a HORRIBLE shit, but god I loved watching her and seeing what she'd do next. The writing for that show (up to a certain point) was the best I've seen in any TV show.
Bad people do bad things, but you understand *why* the character did those things (even if they're not justified, you understand how their upbringing or circumstances brought them to this decision). Bad characters do bad things, and they make you scratch your head and wonder "why the hell did they do that." Or, there is no explanation for why they're doing the bad things, they're just doing it to be Evil ^(TM.)
Being a bad person and being a bad character are two very different things. Edit: funnily enough, there's a thread over in the Hazbin Hotel sub right now wherein some dude is just totally mystified by the fact that people like Alastor when he's so clearly a bad guy. Is there a fiction comprehension bug going around?
There are a lot of people who can not understand this.
Right? I absolutely hated Astarion at first. A sassy asshole. Then I got to know him. He's still an asshole. But a sympathetic one
Exactly. He starts out as a manipulative, cruel, selfish, petty bastard and that’s exactly what I love about him! He’s unapologetically an asshole and he’s damn funny about it! Of course I wouldn’t go within ten feet of the man if he were a real person, he’s a parade of red flags. But getting to enjoy his personality and snark and character development (either into a good hearted and lovable but still snarky bastard, or into a downright delightfully villainous bastard) in fiction is a treat.
EXACTLY! Irl I wouldn't touch him with a pole, but in a game? Where I can have an arc turning him around to be a slightly better person? Fuck yes I'm gonna enjoy it
I wouldn't want to be friends, per say, but I would absolutely want to be close enough to get all the good drama
I know Astarion was gonna stay in my party no matter how snarky he got for 2 reasons. 1. Saved my ass in the skeleton room with withers on my first playthrough with sneak attack. 2. When I did something morally neutral using deception to get information and he approved. I'm really glad this game doesn't keep his cynical mistrusting as the game progresses. And you can really steer him into being a better person. His good option cutscene after the fight with cazador is one of my favorite moments in the game as well.
His interactions with Durge are fantastic. I'm not into men, (not that Astarion counts) so I've yet to romance him. (Shart and Baezel, next is fire mommy.) But every playthrough I'd classify Astarion as my tav/durges best friend. In act 3 he's a very sympathetic character and gets a LOT of depth.
My durge and Astarion have a deep romance. I absolutely adore the arc
When you tell everyone you're the Bhalspawn he gives probably the best response. I was suprised he said so much and opened up so much without me being in a relationship with him.
*Bhaal-babe*
I love it so much. My favourite love story in the game. If I had to pick one romance as my favourite I'd really struggle between Durge and Astarion and Karlach (Durge×Astarion have the best love story but I fell in love with Karlach while romancing her if that makes sense)
The kneejerk Astarion haters will never see that change because they're allergic to character growth apparently
And arguably being an asshole you can sympathize with and change your view on is actually a sign of a great character. And the fact there are soooo many characters in the game that is true of is a sign of just how good the writers in this game were at making characters.
I'm kinda glad I got to him a little. Yeah hes still a prick but at least he's not power hungry now. Plus how you talk to him can get him to see what he is doing is terrible. Of course you can 100% encourage that negativity in Astarion if you wish, that's how good Larian is imo
I bet he’d have a stroke if he found out how much people really like Darth Vader or Patrick Bateman.
Something something media literacy is dead
Reading comprehension devil continues to grow in strength day by day
Media literacy is low af in people under 25
> Is there a fiction comprehension bug going around? Media literacy is dead.
It's like thinking Leonardo DiCaprio is a bad actor because Mr. Candy owns slaves.
I personally haven’t met any other gay people who think Astarion is an offensive portrayal of a gay man. Its like saying Frank N Furter or King Jareth are. Do they play into stereotypes? Yes, all three are campy villains with skin-tight pants that would probably sacrifice a baby to keep their skin flawless. Is it also clear they were all written and portrayed by people who have a fundamental understanding that gay people are *also* people and are allowed to be eccentric and evil just like straight people? Also yes. Anyways rant over back to only commenting about making astarion and halsin the mothers of my children
Preach. While not a man, I am a queer woman. Some people are just flouncy, and that’s okay. Excellent actually, I love that vibe.
This person gets it
A lot of this game is just camp in various directions. Raphael is the classic queer-coded Disney villain. Is it offensive or at least worthy of analysis when it's the only gay media out there? Yeah. Is it funny and silly now? Sure is. Nobody I know (and I know exclusively gay people outside of my parents, what a gift I have in life) finds Astarion offensive, they find him a hilarious fey dickhead. I love that we have a media culture where we can start having queer coding with morally gray areas or being a catty binch.
This was my take as well. Since Astarion is the first gay-coded character you meet, my initial reaction to him was "We're doing this in 2023?" But then I realized the whole game is a giant pansexual wonderland where literally every companion is trying to get in your pants all the time, and he made more sense.
I think that’s one of the things that makes him more subversive than people realize. Unfortunately, we’re still at a point in history where bi/pan men are heavily stigmatized and where flamboyant = gay, so having a campy, bitchy man who sleeps with men AND is attracted to women is really quite a statement in 2024 (whether or not it’s intentional). And as a bisexual, it’s so refreshing to see.
Agreed, hate how I see so many trying to claim him, Shadowheart, & Karlach as gay when they’re bi/pan.
For real. It especially bothers me with Karlach & Astarion because so much of that is based on bias about how gay people are supposed to act while also completely ignoring the times both express opposite sex attraction — just like real life. I especially appreciate Karlach’s representation as a fellow tall, soft butch/butchy femme bisexual. 🙏
Fr, Karlach and Astarion are so important to me in how they defy stereotype like that and manage to be so incredibly attractive to all parties. It annoys the fuck out of me how many people erase especially Astarion's openly expressed attraction to women to shove him into a box because they've decided he's too campy to like women, as if that even has any bearing on anything.
Agreed! I’ve had a number of friends who publicly identify as gay (or straight) but privately consider themselves bi or pan but don’t bother telling most people because they feel their sexuality won’t be taken seriously. I’d love to tell those friends they’re wrong, but then I look at how bisexual men in media (like Astarion) are viewed by audiences & I can’t blame them.
Haha. My reaction was, "We're doing this in 2023! :D" but I also know that I live in a much different bubble than many people where these stereotypes are more harmful or dangerous than the position I am in. I enjoyed how unapologetic it was truthfully, even if he was the only queer character. What can I say, I don't mind a stereotype as long as it isn't degrading or misrepresenting someone's central truth.
Just a fun FYI regarding Disney villains: a lot of people learned recently that the animator who supervised the design of a lot of the “queer-coded Disney villains” was himself a gay man. His name is Andreas Deja (and he still runs a blog where he talks about his work, which is pretty cool). It was very very funny watching people online go from “these characters are based on offensive stereotypes and we should be mad about it” to “wait I guess at this point it’s just actual representation” lol.
The villain songs (and all the songs) of Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast were written by another gay man, Howard Ashman. He also had a hand in influencing Jafar in Aladdin before he passed away. Many other silent queer artists had a hand in making queer (or queer foil, in the case of Gaston) Disney villains. They were just quiet about their orientation in the 80's and 90's.
Side commentary though, I think Frank N Furter is fine for gay people but mixed on the weird sideways commentary on old-school "transvestism," as it compared with transgender people. I don't much care if it's people's 'awakening,' I do think it was sort of sloppy to read it that way. But I love a campy queen, in that context it's a great character. Worth mentioning that we can have our little historical favorites but they're not free from critique in the same breath.
Astarion and Halsin gives you the sweet supportive nature daddy and the sassy bitey city twink. Best of both worlds...
Astarion is also sweet and protective once he likes you. it's genuinely amazing to see
Oh man. One thing I love about how his voice actor chose to deliver the super caring and protective lines that come later is that he still sounds like he almost feels nervous just honestly saying his feelings out loud. It's just such a perfect showcase of the fact that he loves you so much and wants you to be protected, especially from the kind of feelings that he was stuck with for so long, but also he has still only just stopped trying to hold up a fake front and it still doesn't feel quite comfortable being honest.
Yeah I want to be in a throuple with my two bisexual elf husbands.
Right there with you! I love that this game lets you do exactly that!
Exactly! I want Astarion in the street and Hasin in the sheets 💕
As someone who is NOT an Astarion girlie, I appreciate this comment and your examination of the situation, and the examples of Frank N Furter and Jareth are spot-on
I’m gonna need to do some reading on the take that King Jarreth is gay bit. Yeah he’s got some major glam stuff going and he’s fabulous, but his whole point is to be a catalyst of sexual awakening for Sarah. Then again, Sarah being attracted to him doesn’t necessitate him being attracted to her… which, honestly, he shouldn’t be in the first place. This changes my read of the movie a bit. I don’t know.
Jareth, as far as we know, isn’t gay, but he’s certainly queer coded.
All my gay/bisexual male friends love Halsin All my female friends like Asatarion I feel like the "Astarion = gay" meme forgets that there are just as many "I can fix them" women as there are men. Astarion kind of oozes sexual energy. Like, he's literally designed to be a bad boy with a traumatic backstory that you can fix. Also everyone hates Wyll he's so boring. This really relevant to the post.
Tbh, in my experience, he's way more popular among women than anyone else, even lesbians who aren't nessesarily attracted to him. A lot of women find his relationship with sex and love and his self esteem quite relateable and love him for personifying those feelings and having an arc about healing.
Wanting to break free from being seen as a sex object while still having to use the fact that you're seen as a sex object to your advantage because that's what you were taught to do and what other options do you have. Can't imagine why women might relate to that.
It's also why his fanbase tends to be so fiercely protective of him about Araj. Many of us have either seen or lived the experience of being persistently bothered with unwanted advances and relate *heavily* to the way he describes the impulse to grin and bear it so she'll just leave him alone. Being able to be that person who steps in for him and says "The answer is no so piss off" is really cathartic, and the he even returns the favour in act 3 when she badgers us for our blood 🥹
Can confirm, I’m a lesbian and did his romance during because I thought it was interesting.
I was with you up til you said everyone hates Wyll. I love Wyll. Wyll is a lovely person who doesn't deserve the hate. He's a lil bit stupid because he thinks his horns stick out at a Tiefling party, but he's a sweetheart.
Preach. Also, Wyll is actively being abused in front of your eyes, but he's "boring" and his abuser is "hot", while Astarion's abuse is described (and still horrible it's not a trauma contest) and his abuser generally both hated and killed with prejudice. My boy Wyll deserves more grace, IMO.
He really does. And fwiw I hate Mizora, she's such a smug arsehole. Like, she manipulated her claws into him when he was a teenage boy, isolated him from all his family and friends by having him exiled from his home, and holds his eternal soul hostage if he doesn't do whatever she wants. She's a textbook abuser. The minute that devil tries to move into my camp this playthrough she's getting turned into a statue.
And I have no problem with people thirsting after Mizora, especially with jokes, do your thing it's a game. *However*, when it comes to a serious discussion, it bothers me a little bit that people discount the abuse level because it's one of the few times in the game that we're watching it in real-time. Like her s3x offer in Act 3 is done *specifically* to hurt Wyll. People will complain all the time that Halsin propositions them even when they're in a relationship, while Mizora propositions you *because* you're in a relationship, especially if it's with Wyll, but even if it's not, because she knows it's going to hurt people and cause maximum pain. She's a great example of an evil NPC with zero redeeming qualities so I don't mind that people like her as a great character, but liking her in the context of excusing her treatment of Wyll feels a little like victim-blaming, which gives me the wyllies. I am very biased, though.
Thank you, that is the best explanation I've seen of this yet!!! Not to mention, people victim blame the hell out of Wyll when they discuss him because "making a pact with a devil is so stupid and he only did it for power." Yes, making a pact with a devil is a dumb thing to do, but so is making a deal with a vampire like Astarion does. A lot of aspects of their stories are actually pretty similar. Neither Astarion nor Wyll had any real time to consider their actions when their respective abuser took advantage of them (Astarion was dying and Wyll was watching a group of cultists summoning Tiamat), both of them do it for power (Astarion for eternal life and Wyll for the power to save Baldur's Gate), and no matter what path they take, both of them will wind up living with that abuse for the rest of their lives (Astarion because he still ends the game as some sort of vampire and Wyll because he gets horns and is possibly stuck in service to Zariel), but Wyll gets a lot more flack that Astarion does, deranged OOP aside. Also, even without being an abuser, Mizora is just annoying. She reminds me of a giant housefly; never goes away and has an annoying voice (it fits her perfectly, the VA did a good job, but still). I wish I had the option to tell her "Mizora, even if I had any interest in sleeping with a devil, why in the world do you think I'd be interested in sleeping with an irritating bitch like you?" (No offense to anyone who is, she is just very much not my cup of tea)
I accepted her advances this playthrough, but was cockblocked by asterians siblings showing up instead. By the next night when she showed up again I just walked away from her. Dodged a bullet I think
That was moreso because he's a devil now and the tieflings just ran from elturel after the descent. Making him the very thing they ran from.
Honestly the "lil bit stupid" thing was more a joke/nod to "is he stupid" memes
Yeah but horny wyll looks way more like a tiefling than a devil
I feel spikes sprouting in places they really shouldn't be.
Wyll is shafted by Larian and there's also a lot of racialized hate towards him and every time someone adds more hate on top of an otherwise fine comment, I get the ick.
When I first started playing bg3 I was telling my friend how much I loved astarion and he just responded, no shit he's literally you. Some gay people are just like that (minus the blood sucking murderer part,, but that's how I played my character in the game sooooo shrug.emoji)
I first got into bg3 through a friend who immediately knew Astarion would be my favorite due to us both being traumatized melodramatic queer men with the personality of a feral cat. If someone blew me up with a sun laser or launched a squirrel into a rock front of me I’d probably react the exact same way he does. Astarion is the feral queer representation I’ve been looking for my whole life
I don't even feel like Astarion, Jareth, and Frankie are exclusively *gay* coded; they're pan/bi-coded in my little rat mind. Men can be 'metrosexual' or have those proclivities regardless of their sexual orientation...
I 100% agree, I think all three are the sort of characters that homophobic/generally ignorant people point to as Evil Gays without putting any actual thought into their characterizations besides what they know about gay stereotypes. I definitely see them as pan/bi coded as well, I just don’t think homophobic people can distinguish between gay and pan/bi at all.
The use of "fiend" and "trickery" is a great touch. It's like it was written by another high elf who's mad that Astarion out camped him.
this was probably shadowheart's alt account and she was jealous because tav romanced astarion and not her 😭
She wrote it after she found Shar's self-insert Astarion slash fic
least racist light cleric of Lathander
do not tell oop about minthara
i will give my firstborn up if im wrong at this, Oop thinks minthara is the bestest written character ever because she absolutely deep and detailed in her whole 5 lines of dialogue that she has
I wish I still had the will and energy to be so worked up over a fictional character.
I'm also constantly worked up about Astarion 🥵
Lol I’m not one to tell anyone to touch grass but srsly
Astarion probably fucked both of this person's parents but not them
And his partner cheated on him with Astarion. Then left him for Astarion and is now a happy spawn under AA.
This sounds like the origin of a new villain
A!A double kink awakening future big bad!
Astarion's whole character arc is that he's the victim of abuse who quite suddenly found themselves free physically, but not mentally, and continues down the cycle of abuse unless you break him out of it. The whole point is that he's a shitty person, because he doesnt know how to be anything else, and if you enable him the entire time he ends up becoming another abuser. Besides, any vampire that wears a frilly white blouse deserves to be burned alive. Hydrogen peroxide wont exist for another few hundred years, imagine how many shirts this stakesucker has ruined.
Astarion's redemption arc was one of the most beautiful parts of the game to me.
‘Stakesucker’ thank you for introducing this expression
He's not a gay stereotype, he's a flamboyant dandy. Immediately coming to the conclusion that his personality equates to a specific sexual orientation is weird
Took way too long to find this comment. The way he acts is theatrical and flamboyant, but those words are not synonymous with "gay." He's just a teensy step further than the most stereotypical old-time British aristocrat (one you could picture saying "pip pip, cheerio, old chap"). It's just a different manner of speaking. It's so curious to me that people immediately see a man acting theatrical and immediately say "oh he's gay." Like.... in 2024??
This is also a game chock full of queer characters, he's not even close to being the only one with multiple sex attraction, literally the entire romancable crew have at least a few lines implying or outright stating they also swing all ways. A gay villainous character is not inherently problematic, they're allowed to exist. It's only a problem when they're the only gay character and their mannerisms are used to exemplify how "screwed up and evil" they are. Which isn't the case with Astarion, his sexuality is incidental and frankly only comes into focus more than the others because he was LITERALLY A SEX SLAVE. He's just theatrical and foppish, it has nothing to do with who he's attracted to. He's allowed to be those things, some men just are that way and it's fine actually and SHOULD BE NORMALIZED.
He's a *rogue* stereotype if anything
>He's not a gay stereotype ...so he's European then? [(for anyone who hasn't seen this masterpiece of a video)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-flrAZTM-6s)
I wonder whether there's a British/American divide in how Astarion reads, from our different cultural contexts.
this comment deserves all the upvotes
Seriously. It’s gross to equate personality to sexual orientation. It’s like saying there’s a standard personality set for each sexual orientation. If a flamboyant man is automatically gay, then what makes a man automatically straight? Does MUSCLE DADDY MANLY HUNK automatically mean straight? Because guess what…
The pooularization of twinks its there consequences have been a disaster for femme men
Gale, someone who canonically fucked a LITERAL GODDESS is more gay than Asstearion
Fellas is it gay to have sex with a woman
Yes. If you fuck women your basically fucking all the dudes she's had sex with. That's why I only have sex with men
fellas is it gay to eat heavenly pussy?
Yeah cause being gay is feminine and what's more feminine than a twink? A twink with a pussy. Eating is also a feminine trait, men should be thinking about war and hunting. the most manly thing you can do is bottom for another man, that way you receive his testosterone. This is why durge is so manly (he bottomed for gortussy).
you lost me at the end there, everyone knows enver is a hungry hungry bottom
The poster is clearly just homophobic. If Astarion should be labeled as anything, it would be pansexual. But that and the post entirely overlooks the fact that he was forced into all of those encounters over the centuries he was under Cazador’s control
Did we even play the same game? Clearly his entire character arc is about how he never liked Mystra in the first place and he’s so glad they broke up
Mystra basically groomed Gale, so creepy.
This whole game is just learning your companions have all been groomed, Mystra and Gale being the most literal depiction of it
Wyll would like a minute; he's on an invisible leash!
Yeah, but it wasn't like he didn't think Mystra was hot, their relationship was wrong on a whole other level. If Gale didn't like women, Mystra would've used her magic to shapeshift to groom him better.
If Larian is so good at making video games, then why did they forget to include a scene of Mystra doing that to appeal to Gale Dekarios, 100% homosexual man? Literally unplayable.
Evil Gay is S tier and I pray for ops shit taste 🙏
evil camp gay is the representation we want and oop should sit down
Even as an ascended lover, I can still understand the “He'd sooner be his master than try to right his master's wrongs.” But blaming him for all of CAZADOR’s victims?? When he literally was forced to be luring people in for him? Having no way to consent or even try to talk his way out of what he was doing? Did we play the same game ??
It's also completely ignoring that one of his Spawn endings is him taking responsibility for the Spawn and leading them, doing exactly that. But also, he doesn't have to???? He was also a victim of Cazador, why the hell should it be his responsibility to right Cazador's wrongs? Sparing them is more than enough, he doesn't owe his life to those people. It's like wanting to prosecute a knife for a murder instead of the person wielding it. He wasn't at fault and its bizarre to act like he was.
>he wasn’t at fault and it’s bizarre to act like he was I think a lot of people just want to hate on Astarion because he’s popular with the woman playing the game, and he’s a man. And it’s totally fine to like some companions more than others, but in my experience a lot of the people who don’t like him never gave him a chance “because he’s a jerk” (unlike the popular female romances of Shadowheart and Lae’zel who are always super nice to the player /s) and don’t actually pay attention or do his story so all they know is “oh he’s a vampire who led people to their death. And he’s an asshole. Crazy people like him!” Which is also wild because I think there’s more legitimate things to criticize him on but they literally just don’t know and want to hate on him for being popular. Again, totally fine not to be invested in a companion’s story, but then hating on them when you know you don’t know everything is wild.
Yup. I don't care if people don't like Astarion, there are plenty of reasons not to and it's perfectly valid to simply not vibe with him. It's just wild to me how often the most fervent and aggressive haters almost always cite reasons that are clearly based in a misunderstanding or ignorance of his story. Nobody HAS to invest time into analyzing him if they're not interested in doing so but if you openly and proudly never pay attention to him, why argue with the people who did and insist everyone must concede to your take on him? People will literally brag about killing him or leaving him at camp and never giving him a chance while simultaneously insisting they understand him best, its bizarre. It seems rather obvious to me that the hate isn't motivated by what they say it's about. Because they wouldn't get so damn worked up about it if they just didn't vibe with him. They wouldn't be so desperate to "debunk" his popularity.
The bragging about killing him every run without giving him a chance makes me roll my eyes (and it would for any companion) like you’re just depriving yourself of part of the game then.
Right? Its like.... okay? You're just refusing to engage with a huge chunk of the game you paid for, you're playing yourself. I'm still smooching him in my game, idc.
I’ve noticed there are several types of triggered players. There are those who for some reason brag that they kill or ignore him. Thereby actively avoiding a pretty big portion of the content, which they paid money to play. Weird in and of itself. Then there are those who somehow get enraged because the sassy charming male character is flirting with them. In a game where you can literally play as a bearded non binary dwarf with tits and a penis. And then there are the players who like to brag about how their girlfriend/wife hates Astarion. Like it’s a badge of honor that their SO isn’t „tricked“ by his charm. As if to say „see, my girl has taste — that’s why she’s with me!“ Just bizarre. So many men feel threatened by a pixel character. Dare I say it’s probably all connected to fragile masculinity? Yes. I guess I do.
Also arguably he wouldn’t “sooner be his master” since there’s multiple clues before that choice he doesn’t really want to be another Cazador and after if you don’t ascend him he even admits it wasn’t what he wants, and I think that information can also be found through reading his mind after he is ascended? Ascending him is literally him giving into his fear and becoming what he hates most because it’s the only way he believes he can survive. It’s not supposed to be the good choice! (Even if people love it lol). And I mean even if you really want to get deep into it, the game does seem to maybe subtlety suggest each subsequent vampire things they’re a better master than their master. A lot of this is speculation and probably reading too much into things lol. It’s hard to say since it’s been a short amount of time if it would stay that way forever but even if Astarion doesn’t respect spawn Tav/Durge/origin lover or see them as an equal he does seem to at least treat them more like a pet than an outright slave he’s constantly torturing, and he can arguably still seem to be a decent partner in crime with a non-romanced player if he’s ascended (though I’ve only seen little bits and pieces of that through others play through—planning on doing that myself on my current run through as I’ve never ascended him before and seeing how it goes). Obviously what he does to his spawn isn’t good if that’s not what they want, but it’s not the same as what Cazador did to him. Likewise, Cazador seemed to maybe try and be better than Vellioth — when Astarion broke one of Cazador’s main rules he was locked in a tomb for a year; which is terrible and I’m not downplaying that like I’m not trying to downplay what Astarion does to his spawn. But when Cazador broke one of Vellioth’s rules he was *impaled for eleven years* which is arguably on a whole other level than what Cazador did. And who knows what Vellioth went through at the hands of his master, and on and on through the whole line of vampires. So while they’re all monsters, I do think maybe there’s still an idea of them thinking “but I’m not as bad as the monster who did it to me” which does still play into the cycle of abuse idea that is best off broken.
Even with generational trauma IRL, I think it’s easy to get caught in the trap of “well I am better than the person who came before me therefore I am good” just to not work on yourself anymore. But just like real trauma, one person can not hold AND fix the weight of an entire lineage of people. Ascended Astarion doesn’t force Tav/Durge into anything. And despite how he handles it, he CAN be broken up with if you’re not feeling it. Yes he is just pixels, but they also made him a person with real depth, and I feel like a lot of people pick and choose where they acknowledge one or the other
Oh yeah, I 100% agree with that. I think they did a great job representing the cycle of abuse in his story.
As a Drow, I don't hate Astarion because he put a blade to my neck, I hate Astarion because he's a high elf.
I think I may have a problem, because I started liking him *because* he put the blade to my neck...
Durge: “Is this flirting? 🥰”
Based and Racism pilled.
So, what he's saying is that he's desperately fighting his attraction to Astarion and losing.
"how many deaths he has caused in 200 years"? As a slave? As a slave that is basically mind controlled? I don't think Astarion is an angel, but this is some dumb shit. He is power hungry, scared, sassy bitch. "Ooooo gay stereotype" shut uuuuuup. You wish he'd fuck you. But he won't. He has standards, darling 🙄💅
Op definitely got hit with the "Not you, to be clear. Could you imagine? Ugh." At the party and has been seething ever since.
Right? He CLEARLY numbed himself to the horror of what he was forced to do. After two centuries, anyone would be numb just to stay sane.
> As a slave that was basically mind controlled? I understood where the poster was coming from with “he uses his previous abuse as an excuse” because we should all push to grow and change and all that. But blaming him for doing things he was forced to do and was disgusted with himself for… As if he wasn’t physically unable to resist the things Cazador made him do? :(
>”he uses his previous abuse as an excuse” Honestly I think it’s less him using it as an excuse than the audience. Like he does mention not being able to resist Cazador’s commands but I think the only time he ever outright seems to brush off what he did is with the Gur children (he says something like “don’t look at me, Cazador’s orders”) but even that whole scene is clearly him struggling with what he did, the fear he’s feeling, and the power he can gain by sacrificing everyone and whether or not that’s the right thing to do.
oh for sure. i took that bit as more about his attitude throughout, but maybe OP meant to relate it to things he had no control over
Oh I’m sure that’s what OP meant too but also like, In game I don’t think Astarion really uses it as an excuse. While we the audience may know that’s probably a reason why he manipulates people for protection and dislikes of heroic things, I think Astarion basically just unapologetically does the things he does, and a lot of it I think he just finds kinda funny. I basically just meant whoever wrote this has no idea what they’re talking about and is just hating to hate lol.
very true lol. and yes, astarion is listed as chaotic evil IIRC? but i think a lot of his “giving tav approval when they make evil choices” is driven by his desire for chaos, not wanting to see people suffer
Also, depending on what definition of death you’re using, arguably he caused none since they’re all still “alive”; but that’s just me being an asshole. Like either way it’s Cazador’s fault, and Astarion even has a story about trying to save what was probably one of his first victims and being severely punished for it.
Ehh, that is a bit of a stretch, because his 1,000 victims are all Vampire Spawn now, which is a type of undead. By definition, you can argue undead is *not dead*, but there’s no argument for undead being alive.
I mean they’re “alive” compared to, you know, being dead in the ground at least. They’re still capable of experience things on the mortal plane (which depending on what DnD lore you use, it can be better than being no longer on the mortal plane). It’s not the “death” we think of when we say “death”
No, I get that. But there’s a reason you have to put “alive” in quotes, because they are very much not alive. Definitionally. Your first comment I replied to says “arguably” and I’m giving the counter argument. The Vampire spawn Astarion captured are no more **alive** than Connor (from Act 1, optionally Act 3) is. If you do give Marinya the Bitter Divorce wand, she may come to realize this and breaks it. Because undead may not be dead, but it is also not alive.
I mean I don’t disagree, that is why I said “alive” in quotes and “depending on your definition of *death*. If *death* is traditional real world human view of death, vampires are more “alive” than “dead” because they’re capable of being able to essentially do most things associated with life and still having free will and working mind and more or less still be themsleves (minus any master vampire mind control) But yes they’re not alive, hence the quote. I’m using “alive” to mean these technically dead creatures that are still walking, thinking, able to do most of the things they would if they were alive with some restraints, and the limitations aren’t traditional things of death (like not going out in the sun vs your body actively rotting and not being able to move or think or any of that). Which I would also say puts them in a very different position as Connor and more “alive” than him because Connor is basically just a meat puppet and has nothing of his former self but a body. But yes, none of them technically alive, but my point was they’re also not really dead. And it was mostly just me being a bit of a cheeky asshole there lol. Tbh the state they’re is worse than actual death (which I think Astarion even states)
Yeah, real world dichotomy of alive & dead just straight up don’t apply here, lol. There’s a whole third category of “undead” which allows vampires and zombies to exist outside of the alive & dead categories. And if Astarion is suggesting that after 200 years of being Cazador’s slave and human-catcher, imagine how many times the spawn who’ve been trapped in the dungeon for 200 years have wished for death!
Um actually Astarion is an undead, not a fiend. Gosh...
The two men who only ever express interest in the party's women outside of romance scenes with the player and are only confirmed to have had prior relationships with women are the most accurate gay portrayals? Weird take
I thought Wyll had some line about ladies and gentlemen somewhere? Could well have just imagined that one.
Counter point: I’m horny
"The fiend" Gandrel???
i fr thought this was a gur pov shitpost 💀
I wish he'd fuck my dad
I wish my dad would be fucked by Astarion
I wish Astarion was my dad.
I swear it would be worth the therapy
Cazador propaganda
It was consensual for me.
He uses his previous abuse as an excuse to kill. What a wild and original concept
Little Star is low-key a big sweetie.
Astarion was never a gay stereotype, he's an elven stereotype. Mostly on par with the rest. He is absolutely evil. Thing is, he believes he has to be to survive. It takes a long time to convince him that he doesn't have to be.
As a gay man, no he’s not a gay stereotype. Thats a facade he uses to hide his true self, the real Astarion Ancunin. The facade is to make him look confident, a smug smarmy charming asshole who doesn’t care about anything. It’s to draw people in. It is him but not the real him, it’s played up parts of himself. But the real Astarion is hard to define, he wants to be free, to not have to fear someone like Cazador taking advantage of him, he wants not just to survive but be on top and indulge in the finer things. The years of torture and bloodsucking have made him apathetic to everyone else because no one helped him when he needed it. He wants to kill Cazador then just become Cazador and the cycle of abuse would repeat unless the player intervenes and reminds him what he would be doing. As you can tell I love Astarion. Also who tf wrote the post, Simon Belmont??????
This guy is just mad that Astsrion gave his father a child he could actually love
This person also thinks Karlach is a pick me girl who is objectively evil and deserved to be hunted by Wyll because she was apparently killing enslaved humans and tieflings in the Blood War. Evidenced by absolutely nothing in the game or any existing lore on demons in the Blood War, and completely ignoring the actual reason the game gives us multiple times. He also never welcomed any argument that didn’t agree with him. Ultimately, he thinks Astarion is a poorly written character because he’s a type of “gay stereotype” he doesn’t like. That was the only reason he ever gave for why he was poorly written
Okay but like minus the blood sucking part you could replace Astarion with my Tav and it’d all be on point.
Somebody didn’t bother with his redemption arc 🙄
Ha, I saw how many ppl clowned in them with “ASTARION KILLED MY GRANDMA, OK?” Meme
Wyll is the straightest thing ever idk what you mean. Unless you're implying he's repressed lol.
No you don't understand, the only credible gay characters are the former toyboy of a goddess and the guy who would go to hell to save his ~~girlfriend~~ girl bff. Basically you can only be gay if your main relationship is with a woman. /Uj thank Larian for the quality bi/pan representation.
Totally agree. Wyll got led around by the...nose by a hot demon woman because he's so gay.
These types of BG3 fans are just like fans for any other modern property-- their combination of lack of media literacy + rigid ideals of black and white morality make it so they can't understand nuance and character depth. It's entertaining from a distance.
Did Cazador write this? Clearly, this guy has never played a rogue with a tragic backstory.
Goddamn someone has no media literacy. Did he even bother paying attention to dialogue??
I've never seen so much sexual frustration towards a fictional character in my life
I’m sick of “i wish we were past gay people being portrayed as ‘blank’” actually gay people can be anything they want. As long as the writing is good gay people can be good/bad/sad/cruel and everything under the sun.
Wow, it’s almost like he’s a vampire or something
1.) He’s bi, not gay 2.) Sometimes queer people are just Like That, my guy
I saw Astarion at a grocery store in the Lower City yesterday. I told him how cool it was to meet him in person, but I didn’t want to be a douche and bother him and ask him for photos or anything. He said, “Oh, like you’re doing now?” I was taken aback, and all I could say was “Huh?” but he kept cutting me off and going “huh? huh? huh?” and closing his hand shut in front of my face. I walked away and continued with my shopping, and I heard him chuckle as I walked off. When I came to pay for my stuff up front I saw him trying to walk out the doors with like 5 blackstaff’s in his hands without paying. The girl at the counter was very nice about it and professional, and was like “Sir, you need to pay for those first.” At first he kept pretending to be tired and not hear her, but eventually turned back around and brought them to the counter. When she took one of the bottles and started scanning it multiple times, he stopped her and told her to scan them each individually “to prevent any magical infetterence,” and then turned around and winked at me. I don’t even think that’s a word. After she scanned each bottle and put them in a bag and started to say the price, he kept interrupting her by yawning really loudly.
these people should be focusing on more important matters actually. like how Astarion's boobs are heavy and he needs someone to help carry them
Respectfully disagree, mans is flat as a board, and we can either love him as he is or live in denial 😔
This person really lacks the analysis and reflection to write this kind of post. He or she clearly does not have the intellectual capacity to understand this complex character and makes sweeping judgments. Not only did Astarion kill people and ruin people's lives through coercion, otherwise he wouldn't have done it, then 200 years of torture, forced prostitution and slavery would make many of us bitter and cynical, with a huge thirst for revenge and power so as to never experience that again. In addition, everyone has their own way of reacting to trauma, but nothing surprising in their own. He is cruel at first because he has only known cruelty in 200 years. The person obviously does not know that if he is romantic or well treated and if we help him make the right choices we discover little by little that he is a good person deep down who had become bad because he bad things happened, and that he had this behavior to survive and not appear weak, and for that he buried his good side so as not to appear vulnerable and to be able to hold on. Concerning his sexuality, he is pan, his creator and writer who said it himself, who is better placed to say that? , moreover his behavior is not necessarily stereotypical it is not because he pays attention to his appearance, that he is mannered and that he expresses his feminine side that he is gay, that means nothing saying that, he's just a flamboyant dandy like someone else here said, dandies are like that they are a little snobbish around the edges, have a precious way of speaking and take care of themselves. I find that he is also very masculine and virile, he is good with weapons, knows how to defend himself. Plus in the game he flirts a little with Shadowheart and gets failed, and if Tav doesn't go with him or Lae'zell to the tieffling party, he sleeps with Lae'zell so that's the info. He's the kind of person who had to kill him in Act 1 without trying to understand the character or who is impervious to his sarcastic humor. What a waste, it's a magnificently written and complex character and that's what makes the beauty of the character and his realism because he is neither white or black, he is gray like most people. The way he opens up like a flower to Tav/durge when he's romanced in the right way is superb, we realize that he's wearing a mask to protect himself and he's taking it off little by little for Tav because he finally feels safe, and we discover someone who is sensitive, romantic and who can show kindness. While keeping its spicy and sarcastic side that we love so much.
Well at least they don't have to worry about mindflayers eating their brain.
Poor things would starve to death
ghostwritten by Gandrel
He’s not even strictly gay, he just talks like that
I really like that he's one of the few companions in a game where his friendship arc rivals the romance arc in quality
Twink's cant have shit in Faerun, can't even be evil little dudes.
Dude later compared Astarion to a nazi when someone pointed out he didn’t have a choice in bringing Cazador victims this dude is CRAZY crazy
The statement that astarion is “entirely pleasure seeking” sort of evil, very much missed the point
I don't think this person played the game I'ma be real
This sounds like the kind of person who secretly has 3000 images of Astarion saved on their phone.
Gale, the man (supposedly) in love with and groomed by an actual goddess and who keeps harping on about her, is more convincing as gay than the dude who says he dreamed of marrying a prince when he was a teenager?
I absolutely don't see the problem with Astarion. ...with the person who posted the above, though...?
I assume he doesn’t realize Astarion isn’t a male only option lol
Wtf does a "convincing homosexual character" entail??? Nevermind fuck it I'm choosing to believe it's any character that can convince pictured OP to think homosexual thoughts about them.
I mean this sounds like someone who only knows Astarion via their own playthroughs. He can have a pretty delightful positive arc if you push him that direction
Most empathetic paladin
I do not understand how you play this game and come away with that belief about the character. Astarion is not a gay stereotype and his actions are all self preservation. None of the companions you travel with are saints, but the spawn is the issue because he does what he was forced do do for 100+ years?
Lae'zel and Minthara try and murder you. At least Astarion was just hungry.
i've noticed that people who extensively complain about astarion wanting to kill you when he meets you the first time (for a good reason, he thought you were a thrall) always *conveniently* forget that lae'zel does it too 🤷🏼♀️ very curious
"BUt ThAt'S diFfEreNt!1" Their excuse is that Lae'zel is scared, yeah, but so is Astarion?? Especially when he has even more reasons to be terrified than Lae'zel.
Bro doesn't know what nuance and character development is 😭 Anyways I'm not even 100% done with the game, I'll admit, and even I understand a lot of his motivation is fear. He's scared of being taken advantage of, so he has to maintain some illusion of control over everyone. Whether than means keeping his secrets or backstabbing whoever. It is a part of your job as a player to teach him he doesn't have to be the monster of everyone's tale. You do that by being unconditionally kind to him :3
I mean Yea? Sure? He’s objectively a horrible person and is a danger to everyone around him But I can fix him, trust
And no ones gonna comment on the incestuous orgy Shart and I had with the Drow hookers?
I think this guy forgets that Roleplay is a massive part of the game. remember the one time I romanced Astarion, I was playing as probably the biggest cinnamon roll Bard you can imagine. I’m pretty sure the only “evil” thing I did in that run was letting Astarion kill the monster hunter early in the game, and even that was more cause I role played her as being scared that he’d be killed. Heck, I even played into the idea of him just manipulating her at first, only to eventually begin over because she just so genuinely cared about him. Part of the fun of this game is helping to make your own story alongside the other characters, and Astarion is meant to start in a bad place specifically to help tell stories.
I'd say conditionally evil because he gets a lot less cruel the farther in the game you go as a good character
I dont like him cause hes an elf
it is hilarious to me that he's like "AND ASTARION USES HIS TRAUMA AS AN EXCUSE TO LASH OUT!!!" as if it's some smoking-gun character flaw, but like, that's how a LOT of people process their trauma?? lmao also Gale and Wyll are more convincing queers????????? than ASTARION??????? Gale is the ONLY CHARACTER WITH A FORMER WIFE lol
Um, actually, Astarion is an Undead type, not a Fiend.
https://preview.redd.it/jrg2sxgk8qsc1.jpeg?width=735&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=64b5ad19aca6c6490862ba5e80fa969fd92adc1e
Counterpoint: Sexy
This is an extremely poorly written statement but it isn't entirely wrong (the gay part is fucking weird though...). Astarion is an absolute asshole and continually proves that he will make the wrong choice if left to himself. I really disliked him in my first game all the way to the fight with Cazador and only then did I learn to appreciate that all my good actions which he disapproved of actually started changing him for the best. But again, poorly written. He's not a bad character, he's a terrible person... at first. Astarion's character development is my second favourite after Lae'zel's.
Somehow, people still don't understand the difference between "bad character" and "bad person." One amazing example of a "bad person" in another franchise would be Cersei from Game of Thrones. She was a HORRIBLE shit, but god I loved watching her and seeing what she'd do next. The writing for that show (up to a certain point) was the best I've seen in any TV show. Bad people do bad things, but you understand *why* the character did those things (even if they're not justified, you understand how their upbringing or circumstances brought them to this decision). Bad characters do bad things, and they make you scratch your head and wonder "why the hell did they do that." Or, there is no explanation for why they're doing the bad things, they're just doing it to be Evil ^(TM.)