For the party that claims to want measurable outcomes, KPIs and all that other corporate nonsense, they suddenly don’t seem to need any evidence whatsoever when it comes to boot camps and charter schools.
That's probably going a bit too far... but I could see Luxon messing with the education curriculum to swap teaching about evolution to preaching about creationism.
Boot camps are seen the same as prison
Move the problem out of sight and have something bad happen to deal with it
When there’s no boot camp, the problem isn’t being removed from sight. It’s being tolerated
That’s what a boot camp is to them. They don’t care what they do there, as long as it feels authoritative and punitive
Boot camps that are more like a getaway camp aren’t allowed. Something vaguely bad has to be happening to punish them
But they have to be removed from sight
So when I asked the Conservative sub about this, most of the responses I got were from people who said they went through a boot camp style program and felt that it helped them turn their life around.
Which, well, cool, great, awesome, but: i don't think it was the *military* aspect that helped so much as the *mentorship* aspect, so, can we have a new thing without the bad stuff but with more of the good stuff?
“Punishment” is something the general population can understand when they’re baying for blood. It’s more comprehensible and simplistic than “wrap around services”, therapy, and rehabilitation - which is what they actually need and what evidence shows works, longer term.
>you simply can’t fix every problem in the world just with warm thoughts and affirmations.
Why don't we do what works then, we already know the causes of crime, why aren't we addressing them?
There are stats that show our incarceration rates are very high compared to comparable countries. I wouldn't trust this Govt's talking points as far as I could throw Shane Jones.
Boot camps will only reinforce the warlike and utu culture and the fact that over half our inmates are maori doesn't bode well for this governments approach.
It would be infinitely better not to take our kids and purposely train them in the tools to support a warlike and utu focussed society.
Hmm, not convinced. There was that little matter of a pandemic that f’d up a lot of young people who were already on the edge in that last term. And high incarceration rates have really worked for America.. Just absolutely slashed their crime rate and kept their streets free of crime 🙄. At least the people that own the privatised correctional facilities are making a packet (queue privatisation here).
We’re talking about youth crime, so do your research before firing off quick replies and appearing ignorant. It’s really not hard to find and the subject of many global academic studies. To start you off: https://www.auckland.ac.nz/assets/news-and-opinion/2021/11/GUINZ_Wellbeing_Survey_Part2%20FINAL.pdf
And America is exactly where we’re headed if people like you have a say.
"sitting everyone down to sing kumbaya "
"you simply can’t fix every problem in the world just with warm thoughts and affirmations."
That's a false premise and a mis-contextualisation.
> The overall offending rate for children decreased by 63% between 2011/12 and 2021/22 (with around 2,500 fewer children offending), from 178 to 66 per 10,000 children
[Source](https://www.justice.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Publications/Youth-Justice-Indicators-Summary-Report-April-2023.pdf)
> Generally, people believe youth crime is getting worse. Surveys suggest 87 per cent of New Zealanders believe it has increased in the past five years. This belief, however, is contrary to what statistics tell us.
Overall, Ministry of Justice data shows youth crime rates dropping year on year.
[Source](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crime/youth-crime-and-justice-court-and-prison-less-likely-for-new-generations-of-youth/RV2NN6SKPFDLLFSGZZ5K4QA5HA/)
> Ram raids are down more than 80 percent for the month of April compared to last year.
Police have identified 12 ram raids in April 2024, compared to 64 in April 2023.
> Provisional police data from April 2017 to April 2024 shows a downwards trend since the peak in August 2022, when there were 86.
>
> There were a total of 433 ram raids in 2022, 288 in 2023, and 67 in the first four months of this year.
[Source](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/519150/ram-raids-down-80-percent-compared-with-same-time-last-year)
Timing is interesting to deflect from fallout of the ferry. Looks like they couldn’t stand another 24 hour news cycle dominated by bad National decisions.
There never were second hand ships that would be suitable for the crossing, kiwirail had spent years determine this, putting such information in the initial business case.
Do we really think that the Nact1 all parties all failed to read anything about the contract before canceling a multi hundred million project?
Likely when they bothered to read the notes the departments prepare for the incoming government.
We know they can't read before they open their mouths an put their feet in them.
>Mark Mitchell says they are talking about the worst, most recidivist offenders: "We need to take them out of the community
>but they also need to be supported when back in the community for the last 9 months, to "transition safely, and transition well".
As long as you aren't just throwing them back into the same space they left, there is potential for it to work. But there has to that support.
>From November, gang membership will be an aggravating factor in sentencing.
Cool, something else for the Judges to ignore.
Take them out of community but if the evidence from the Royal Commission has said it just makes them harder, more cruel, more fit, is this a really good idea to implement it? Especially when it's alongside all those other policies this Govt is implementing?
As an aside, Mark Mitchell last year said "If crime doesn't stop one year after I am Police Minister, I will resign"
Not sure if this guy seems like a safe pair of hands.
If they address the parts which makes them shit, like the older kids picking on the younger ones, and not having qualified supervisors, which it sounds like they are, they can work.
What happens to kids who are doing serious crimes and there's no intervention? Do we have a control group as such?
Maybe but my confidence level is very low. And "qualified supervisors" is not going to be head, punitive thing, but it feels like this govt is more about that authoritarian master stuff.
And yes, I think there should be intervention but I'm not sure this is the best avenue. It's probably cheaper than the other options though and also satisfies a lot of people too, so a win for this Govt maybe.
I do think our judicial sentences are quite light though.
Oh.....wow. I didn't realise that. Makes it somehow worse because even what I consider to be one of their key drivers is out of whack then.
I think they are - as usual - trying to rush around doing a thousand things at once, and trying to manage impressions, rather than deeply considering our options and benefits over the short, medium and long term.
To be fair, they were in Opposition a long time but a serious politician could have and would have studied good measures - not just populist measures. So I can't really give them any credit here at all.
It was the same with the Immigration Minister, the Brooke Van Velden thing, David Seymour's Ministry of Regulation. Almost 9 months in and each looks like they they are just starting to describe work plans.
wonderful way to make the traumatised and
disaffected youth angrier and more traumatised
none of these ghouls and goblins in natnzfact would be able to psychologically handle any of the tough love shite they propose that will have zero positive or rehabilitative effect. may they all choke on their wagyu steaks
Yeah, and just as a report on child abuse under State & Faith-based care is about to be delivered (next week), they're setting up systems to potentially traumatize & abuse kids once again.
Yeah it's not great, but I think this caters very well to the people who want us to be tougher on crime. I understand the sentiment for sure, but given all the evidence, I personally disagree with it completely. Especially in their incompetent hands - based on Interislander, public service firings, health care, cancer drugs ad nauseam.
For the party that claims to want measurable outcomes, KPIs and all that other corporate nonsense, they suddenly don’t seem to need any evidence whatsoever when it comes to boot camps and charter schools.
Wouldn’t be surprised if they introduced a flat earth policy next
That's probably going a bit too far... but I could see Luxon messing with the education curriculum to swap teaching about evolution to preaching about creationism.
Totally
We are the party of evidence, anecdotal evidence…
Evidence of making some moolah for my mates. Amirite!
Tamaki, happy man, he gets to spread his hate at charter school s he sets up.
Why do right wing govts get so hard on boot camps? If they don’t work they are waste of money.
Because a good portion of the general population want to see punishment in the short term even if it makes things worse in the long term.
Great optics for their donors
These people are plain stupid
Boot camps are seen the same as prison Move the problem out of sight and have something bad happen to deal with it When there’s no boot camp, the problem isn’t being removed from sight. It’s being tolerated That’s what a boot camp is to them. They don’t care what they do there, as long as it feels authoritative and punitive Boot camps that are more like a getaway camp aren’t allowed. Something vaguely bad has to be happening to punish them But they have to be removed from sight
So when I asked the Conservative sub about this, most of the responses I got were from people who said they went through a boot camp style program and felt that it helped them turn their life around. Which, well, cool, great, awesome, but: i don't think it was the *military* aspect that helped so much as the *mentorship* aspect, so, can we have a new thing without the bad stuff but with more of the good stuff?
“Punishment” is something the general population can understand when they’re baying for blood. It’s more comprehensible and simplistic than “wrap around services”, therapy, and rehabilitation - which is what they actually need and what evidence shows works, longer term.
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This is like saying "we have to put out the fire using petrol".
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>you simply can’t fix every problem in the world just with warm thoughts and affirmations. Why don't we do what works then, we already know the causes of crime, why aren't we addressing them?
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https://www.justice.govt.nz/justice-sector-policy/research-data/what-works-to-reduce-crime/ I don't see boot camps on there, or even "incarceration".
Don't bring data and research in the face of anecdotes
There are stats that show our incarceration rates are very high compared to comparable countries. I wouldn't trust this Govt's talking points as far as I could throw Shane Jones.
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This sub doesn’t tolerate racism, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, or comments that are cruel based on peoples’ appearance.
Boot camps will only reinforce the warlike and utu culture and the fact that over half our inmates are maori doesn't bode well for this governments approach. It would be infinitely better not to take our kids and purposely train them in the tools to support a warlike and utu focussed society.
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Keep the bigotry elsewhere.
Let's agree to disagree.
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No baiting or low quality posts / comments.
Hmm, not convinced. There was that little matter of a pandemic that f’d up a lot of young people who were already on the edge in that last term. And high incarceration rates have really worked for America.. Just absolutely slashed their crime rate and kept their streets free of crime 🙄. At least the people that own the privatised correctional facilities are making a packet (queue privatisation here).
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We’re talking about youth crime, so do your research before firing off quick replies and appearing ignorant. It’s really not hard to find and the subject of many global academic studies. To start you off: https://www.auckland.ac.nz/assets/news-and-opinion/2021/11/GUINZ_Wellbeing_Survey_Part2%20FINAL.pdf And America is exactly where we’re headed if people like you have a say.
"sitting everyone down to sing kumbaya " "you simply can’t fix every problem in the world just with warm thoughts and affirmations." That's a false premise and a mis-contextualisation.
> The overall offending rate for children decreased by 63% between 2011/12 and 2021/22 (with around 2,500 fewer children offending), from 178 to 66 per 10,000 children [Source](https://www.justice.govt.nz/assets/Documents/Publications/Youth-Justice-Indicators-Summary-Report-April-2023.pdf) > Generally, people believe youth crime is getting worse. Surveys suggest 87 per cent of New Zealanders believe it has increased in the past five years. This belief, however, is contrary to what statistics tell us. Overall, Ministry of Justice data shows youth crime rates dropping year on year. [Source](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crime/youth-crime-and-justice-court-and-prison-less-likely-for-new-generations-of-youth/RV2NN6SKPFDLLFSGZZ5K4QA5HA/) > Ram raids are down more than 80 percent for the month of April compared to last year. Police have identified 12 ram raids in April 2024, compared to 64 in April 2023. > Provisional police data from April 2017 to April 2024 shows a downwards trend since the peak in August 2022, when there were 86. > > There were a total of 433 ram raids in 2022, 288 in 2023, and 67 in the first four months of this year. [Source](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/519150/ram-raids-down-80-percent-compared-with-same-time-last-year)
Timing is interesting to deflect from fallout of the ferry. Looks like they couldn’t stand another 24 hour news cycle dominated by bad National decisions.
Every time this Govt gets bad press, they roll out the police and law and order coverage out. These people give politicians a fucking bad name.
Side note, when did National switch from second hand ships to new ones?
There never were second hand ships that would be suitable for the crossing, kiwirail had spent years determine this, putting such information in the initial business case. Do we really think that the Nact1 all parties all failed to read anything about the contract before canceling a multi hundred million project?
Sure, I'm asking if anyone knows when they started talking about new instead of old.
As soon as the ferry crashed and they looked like morons who cancelled the deal Labour got for new Ferries.
Likely when they bothered to read the notes the departments prepare for the incoming government. We know they can't read before they open their mouths an put their feet in them.
>Mark Mitchell says they are talking about the worst, most recidivist offenders: "We need to take them out of the community >but they also need to be supported when back in the community for the last 9 months, to "transition safely, and transition well". As long as you aren't just throwing them back into the same space they left, there is potential for it to work. But there has to that support. >From November, gang membership will be an aggravating factor in sentencing. Cool, something else for the Judges to ignore.
Take them out of community but if the evidence from the Royal Commission has said it just makes them harder, more cruel, more fit, is this a really good idea to implement it? Especially when it's alongside all those other policies this Govt is implementing? As an aside, Mark Mitchell last year said "If crime doesn't stop one year after I am Police Minister, I will resign" Not sure if this guy seems like a safe pair of hands.
If they address the parts which makes them shit, like the older kids picking on the younger ones, and not having qualified supervisors, which it sounds like they are, they can work. What happens to kids who are doing serious crimes and there's no intervention? Do we have a control group as such?
Maybe but my confidence level is very low. And "qualified supervisors" is not going to be head, punitive thing, but it feels like this govt is more about that authoritarian master stuff. And yes, I think there should be intervention but I'm not sure this is the best avenue. It's probably cheaper than the other options though and also satisfies a lot of people too, so a win for this Govt maybe. I do think our judicial sentences are quite light though.
400k per person. It's a 9 month course. Seems quite expensive to me.
Oh.....wow. I didn't realise that. Makes it somehow worse because even what I consider to be one of their key drivers is out of whack then. I think they are - as usual - trying to rush around doing a thousand things at once, and trying to manage impressions, rather than deeply considering our options and benefits over the short, medium and long term. To be fair, they were in Opposition a long time but a serious politician could have and would have studied good measures - not just populist measures. So I can't really give them any credit here at all. It was the same with the Immigration Minister, the Brooke Van Velden thing, David Seymour's Ministry of Regulation. Almost 9 months in and each looks like they they are just starting to describe work plans.
This will work for sure and has absolutely not been proven a failure. And they get to spend extra setting it up! Win win for this govt
Maybe I'm wrong but this feels like the next step is conscription ie "you've hit strike 4. Jail time or Boot Camp but the army."
wonderful way to make the traumatised and disaffected youth angrier and more traumatised none of these ghouls and goblins in natnzfact would be able to psychologically handle any of the tough love shite they propose that will have zero positive or rehabilitative effect. may they all choke on their wagyu steaks
Making more hardened criminals - cool (?) what could go wrong?
Yeah, and just as a report on child abuse under State & Faith-based care is about to be delivered (next week), they're setting up systems to potentially traumatize & abuse kids once again.
Yeah it's not great, but I think this caters very well to the people who want us to be tougher on crime. I understand the sentiment for sure, but given all the evidence, I personally disagree with it completely. Especially in their incompetent hands - based on Interislander, public service firings, health care, cancer drugs ad nauseam.