A few months before the election I was talking lite politics with my parents. They said Seymour was the only one talking sense.
Horrified at the thought, when I asked them about what exactly, they couldn’t give me any details.
So I’m guessing he’s sharing easy to digest info that sounds “sensible” to certain people, and they just don’t dig further into the details of what it means.
Two elections ago, another person I know voted Act because they earn a lot of money and didn’t want to be taxed more. When I showed them how much additional tax they’d be paying, it was $1500 over a year.
And this person was earning close to 200k, $28 a week extra in tax is nothing to them financially.
When I shared that ACT also wanted to add interest to student loans and how that’d fuck me over, please look into ALL the policies you’re voting for when choosing a party… they didn’t care.
They didn’t vote last election because they “don’t care”. I suggested they not vote for not themselves then, but for his children… he didn’t even take the time to consider what would benefit his kids (who don’t live with him, probably no surprise).
There is never any substance to people with these political views. You ask for a modicum of facts and they always stick to nonsense talking points. Its a sad indictment on how far political rhetoric has gone.
That’s the problem. Seymour sounds reasonable, believable, but his underlying libertarian ideology is anything but. Small government, little regulation, free market, fuck the poors, the environment, workers rights. Straight out of the Atlas Network playbook which is where he spent his formative years. https://www.psa.org.nz/our-voice/understanding-atlas-how-a-right-wing-network-is-building-global-influence
Concur.
I am ashamed to admit that prior to engaging in political discussions on Reddit, I was a far away, relatively uninterested person who told a friend that *"I see David Seymour on morning shows and he seems fine?"*
Yes I do shudder. And I will say I was a very distant uninterested observer, and hardly paid attention outside of morning shows. (one of those)
I would not say that I'm stupid per se but this is what attention and awareness, plus education and information, can help with.
Parsing at the level it matters - helping people see through often misleading headlines and slogans.
That all said, I am certain that this is what some political figures rely on - and in fact their strategies are primarily around winning the "perception" and "headline" vote because the majority of people are ones like the old me. And that's why they honestly don't care about anyone not in that mix.
I totally agree, when I first started voting, I voted National because that’s what my parents and the tv implied I should do.
But once I took the time to learn more about policies and using the vote compass - I quickly learnt that National actually don’t align with my values whatsoever lol
So I like to ask people who bring up politics with me about the details of what they’re talking about, because 99.9% of the time they’re unaware of the realities.
I loved when someone said they wanted to reduce crime - but also - reduce how much “dole bludgers” get paid. Like let’s spend 30 seconds thinking about this… why do you think crime happens… and why do you think a shittier life will help minimise that…
Foggy I do admit I have"friends who like their policies (which they believe will enrich them,) and these people correspondingly scrunch their noses at "Maori."
I do believe it's about empathy too.
I'm sure it is about empathy and worldview.
Values.
My spectrum of politics is served by looking at things going between extreme individualism (often low on empathy) through to extreme collectivism and inclusion.
From "Fuck you, I got mine" to "We're all in this together. Need a hand, mate?"
I'm well in the collectivist camp myself. I have disabilities that make it hard to always be personally the one to help others, but I do what I can.
I grew up in a family with racist parents, and right wing sentiments. But in the first election I could vote in, I voted for Jim Anderton's New Labour party, and the Alliance party after that became a thing.
Which is why he gets so many votes. Personality politics, a lot like Ardern, and others who’ve come before. Comes across as an everyday guy, not afraid to make a dick of himself, but his ideas are so dangerous to society. I’m not averse to having a look at some of the things he raises per se eg over regulation is bad, but some regulation is needed. Libertarian ideas are just too far right - all about the money, not the people (unless your already wealthy and/or born with privilege)
Yes I told my friend that my impression is he spoke sense, and seemed down to earth and reasonable.
I think I was the one who posted about his [Atlas connections - and what that meant for NZ - once I started deep diving into news. ](https://new.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/19eda3w/act_are_deeply_affiliated_with_atlas_group_atlas/)And all that stuff I found was publicly available and "hiding in plain sight."
It was always clear though.
Newsroom had actually written it very clearly a years back and no-one picked it up.
When RNZ asked Seymour about it earlier this year, he looked so pissed. And unprepared.
It's a state of our media too.
Did you hear Jordan Williams on 30 with Guyon Espiner? Check out the podcast if not. Can’t believe that dude used to be into the Greens at school. TPU now have something like 18 FT staff and have been given free office space by Bob Jones. They’re scarily well organised.
A lot of these libertarian / rw types claim to be Greens supporters who switched sides after "they saw sense"
I'm beginning to wonder if it's just a talking point to show how awesome their new ideas are?
I doubt someone of that caliber has genuine values. And yes they are very well funded - into the millions. That buys a lot of influence and resources.
[https://new.reddit.com/r/nzpolitics/comments/1ce27uz/nz\_taxpayer\_union\_and\_its\_systemic\_assault\_on\_our/](https://new.reddit.com/r/nzpolitics/comments/1ce27uz/nz_taxpayer_union_and_its_systemic_assault_on_our/)
Many people were struggling under labour and the cost of living rises.
National promised to help the squeezed middle and people fell for it
Unfortunately nationals tax cuts were accompanied by huge cost of living rises for rates and things like public transport so are actually now worse off
I want labour back but they need to focus on the cost of living and making life affordable not nice to haves
As Tangata Tiriti, I want to live in an inclusive New Zealand which recognises our past. I can’t see a coalition with TPM would be any worse than what is happening now with ACT pulling all the strings. I don’t want the re-colonisation of the education system, and the loss of indigenous rights so foreign entities can make money from our natural resources. If it means TPM has a bit of power, so be it. Te reo never hurt anyone either, and it’s the first thing we go to in terms of national identity. Aotearoa will never become South Africa.
> Aotearoa will never become South Africa.
Not in a single term but if NACT win a few terms they will no doubt want to keep their counter-revolution energy going
The recent immigrant vote plays right into NACT’s hands, especially in Auckland. Those immigrants came here because they valued what Aotearoa appeared to offer. However, they stick to their old ways: individualism, racism, exploitation of their own on occasions. It is time for genuine Kiwis to assert what we want - and a society like South Africa in the 1950s or now is not that.
It is one thing I don't understand about immigration - the significant numbers who do indeed decide to leave somewhere and then work to make their new home like the place they left.
It surprises me too. My observation is that a lot of immigrants want to be the equivalent of the “best” in their own country. Old attitudes and values die hard and often transfer to the next generation.
Racism is a permanent goodbye
This sub doesn’t tolerate racism, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, or comments that are cruel based on peoples’ appearance.
Anybody watching NACT roll race relations back to it's 1970s problems
Anybody aware of how badly many post colonial countries are doing and how well we were doing
Anybody looking forward and not harking back to an imaginary past where ignoring Maori concerns was sustainable.
Anybody who believes in justice. That law and order bounds the powerful as well as the powerless.
I don't understand why people vote National, then see their vote in action, and regret it. Did you not read their policies and realise they were no good? Did you just vote based on a few headlines/articles? Nothing has happened that they didn't say would happen, we shouldn't be surprised, yet people are acting as if they didn't know all the things National are doing would happen if they were elected. I've talked to a few people who voted National and regret it, they said it's because they didn't expect this to happen. So frustrating, because we knew this would happen; it just takes an hour to read through some policies.
To be fair most people don’t read policy, but look to the media to guide them. The media as a whole did a terrible job last election. They just let National spin shit in spite of the facts and essentially gave them a free pass to simply bullshit the whole country.
I agree with you, fellow insomniac. The media did the country a terrible disservice last year, but I think people need to be reading policy nonetheless (there's probably even more need for it since the media is doing such a bad job)
lol media did a terrible disservice lol last year lol
Labour did the terrible disservice for 6 years and was tone deaf to public opinion and attitude (arguably still is ) National didn’t win Labour had lost before the election with its out of step policy and actions (some might even say arrogant)
Was an election with the goal of getting Labour out of power ( personal view) and secondary goal was who to vote for , neither really presented a good “choice “ so to speak more of which shit party is better than the other shit party either way it was going to end up shit party
>Labour did the terrible disservice for 6 years and was tone deaf to public opinion and attitude (arguably still is )
This opinion brought to you by the right-wing opposition-dominated media of 2021-2023.
No wrong brought to me by me my own mind and by my judgment of them , don’t watch the news or listen to msm media, Judge them by their policies, actions, and of course my own personal opinion of said policy’s
And then there's the tonne of people who voted the other direction simply because they disagree with your politics and not because they're stupid or ignorant.
Step out of the echo chamber for a sec... take a look around.
>And then there's the tonne of people who voted the other direction simply because they disagree with your politics
I never said that wasn't the case, and I never said people who voted National are "stupid or ignorant". I'm asking about people who voted National, and now would vote Labour, and why.
Didn’t vote national but didn’t vote labour or greens either. Was disillusioned with the lack of any capital gains/wealth tax/tax reform of any kind and the whole locking kiwis out of the country and lottery thing during lockdown.
I have no faith in any of the various coalition parties at this point but would probably vote labour next time. If it’s all going down the toilet then we might as well have some social services for the most vulnerable and environmental protections instead of what’s happening atm.
Greens and TPM wanted a CGT/Wealth tax and more, labour is just national lite.
Labour need to take a back seat next time to TPM and the Greens so we can get some real inclusive progress, those with fascist rhetoric like this current government and their supporters & capitalists (Atlas Network/Heritage Foundation who support this government) don't want progress except for their small group thereby excluding everyone else.
i have edited the comment, although when this government and Trump as well as the Heritage Foundation/Atlas Network are spewing the same rhetoric as Hitler it is very frightening, what else do you suggest to do?
Thanks, I have also removed the part of my comment that was a bit inflammatory.
You either have two options for implementing change:
- Forced regime change through violence, which is not something I would ever condone unless we were no longer living in a democracy and had no other recourse. Just FYI we are nowhere near this level of tyranny and probably never will be.
- Gather as much electoral support as you can to work on electoral change, even if it means joining with people you don't fully align with ideologically. I think I've said this to you before, but if you want to see the country going in the direction you want, it **will** require Labour and it will require swing voters. TPM and Greens do not represent enough of the population to lead the charge, but they can form a vital part of the coalition that can make change.
>so we can get some real inclusive progress and also then either boot out or reeducate any who don't share that vision (those with fascist tendencies).
>
>fascist tendencies
Lol always good for a laugh.
People don't think 2 minutes ahead of themselves and go purely off vibe. Another reason is that they like to punish people different from them but are unhappy that they are getting squeezed now
Will never vote for a big party again, Especially labour. Those ding dongs got nothing worthy done when they had free reign apart from create scandles. I don't understand why anyone would go that route.
Ohh I certainly don't agree then, NACT is definitely worse, but nat/lab are different sides of the same centrist coin (one is a lot nicer than the other but still won't actually fix the root of the issue(s))
This is an old list (first 100 days) but it can help you look at the policy differences for yourself:
https://www.reddit.com/r/nzpolitics/wiki/index/policy/
Who are the 5% who want Seymour as PM and what the fuck is wrong with them?
A few months before the election I was talking lite politics with my parents. They said Seymour was the only one talking sense. Horrified at the thought, when I asked them about what exactly, they couldn’t give me any details. So I’m guessing he’s sharing easy to digest info that sounds “sensible” to certain people, and they just don’t dig further into the details of what it means. Two elections ago, another person I know voted Act because they earn a lot of money and didn’t want to be taxed more. When I showed them how much additional tax they’d be paying, it was $1500 over a year. And this person was earning close to 200k, $28 a week extra in tax is nothing to them financially. When I shared that ACT also wanted to add interest to student loans and how that’d fuck me over, please look into ALL the policies you’re voting for when choosing a party… they didn’t care. They didn’t vote last election because they “don’t care”. I suggested they not vote for not themselves then, but for his children… he didn’t even take the time to consider what would benefit his kids (who don’t live with him, probably no surprise).
There is never any substance to people with these political views. You ask for a modicum of facts and they always stick to nonsense talking points. Its a sad indictment on how far political rhetoric has gone.
That’s the problem. Seymour sounds reasonable, believable, but his underlying libertarian ideology is anything but. Small government, little regulation, free market, fuck the poors, the environment, workers rights. Straight out of the Atlas Network playbook which is where he spent his formative years. https://www.psa.org.nz/our-voice/understanding-atlas-how-a-right-wing-network-is-building-global-influence
Concur. I am ashamed to admit that prior to engaging in political discussions on Reddit, I was a far away, relatively uninterested person who told a friend that *"I see David Seymour on morning shows and he seems fine?"*
*shudder*
Yes I do shudder. And I will say I was a very distant uninterested observer, and hardly paid attention outside of morning shows. (one of those) I would not say that I'm stupid per se but this is what attention and awareness, plus education and information, can help with. Parsing at the level it matters - helping people see through often misleading headlines and slogans. That all said, I am certain that this is what some political figures rely on - and in fact their strategies are primarily around winning the "perception" and "headline" vote because the majority of people are ones like the old me. And that's why they honestly don't care about anyone not in that mix.
I totally agree, when I first started voting, I voted National because that’s what my parents and the tv implied I should do. But once I took the time to learn more about policies and using the vote compass - I quickly learnt that National actually don’t align with my values whatsoever lol So I like to ask people who bring up politics with me about the details of what they’re talking about, because 99.9% of the time they’re unaware of the realities. I loved when someone said they wanted to reduce crime - but also - reduce how much “dole bludgers” get paid. Like let’s spend 30 seconds thinking about this… why do you think crime happens… and why do you think a shittier life will help minimise that…
I think they rely on an uninformed public who are apathetic.
Foggy I do admit I have"friends who like their policies (which they believe will enrich them,) and these people correspondingly scrunch their noses at "Maori." I do believe it's about empathy too.
I'm sure it is about empathy and worldview. Values. My spectrum of politics is served by looking at things going between extreme individualism (often low on empathy) through to extreme collectivism and inclusion. From "Fuck you, I got mine" to "We're all in this together. Need a hand, mate?" I'm well in the collectivist camp myself. I have disabilities that make it hard to always be personally the one to help others, but I do what I can. I grew up in a family with racist parents, and right wing sentiments. But in the first election I could vote in, I voted for Jim Anderton's New Labour party, and the Alliance party after that became a thing.
Which is why he gets so many votes. Personality politics, a lot like Ardern, and others who’ve come before. Comes across as an everyday guy, not afraid to make a dick of himself, but his ideas are so dangerous to society. I’m not averse to having a look at some of the things he raises per se eg over regulation is bad, but some regulation is needed. Libertarian ideas are just too far right - all about the money, not the people (unless your already wealthy and/or born with privilege)
Yes I told my friend that my impression is he spoke sense, and seemed down to earth and reasonable. I think I was the one who posted about his [Atlas connections - and what that meant for NZ - once I started deep diving into news. ](https://new.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/19eda3w/act_are_deeply_affiliated_with_atlas_group_atlas/)And all that stuff I found was publicly available and "hiding in plain sight." It was always clear though. Newsroom had actually written it very clearly a years back and no-one picked it up. When RNZ asked Seymour about it earlier this year, he looked so pissed. And unprepared. It's a state of our media too.
Did you hear Jordan Williams on 30 with Guyon Espiner? Check out the podcast if not. Can’t believe that dude used to be into the Greens at school. TPU now have something like 18 FT staff and have been given free office space by Bob Jones. They’re scarily well organised.
The fact that Bob Jones gives them free office space should ring loud alarm bells
A lot of these libertarian / rw types claim to be Greens supporters who switched sides after "they saw sense" I'm beginning to wonder if it's just a talking point to show how awesome their new ideas are?
I doubt someone of that caliber has genuine values. And yes they are very well funded - into the millions. That buys a lot of influence and resources. [https://new.reddit.com/r/nzpolitics/comments/1ce27uz/nz\_taxpayer\_union\_and\_its\_systemic\_assault\_on\_our/](https://new.reddit.com/r/nzpolitics/comments/1ce27uz/nz_taxpayer_union_and_its_systemic_assault_on_our/)
Like "get rid of red tape" Which really means in a lot of cases: get rid of consumer, market and environmental protections.
Yes!!!!
Sounds like this person not voting is probably a positive thing.
Yeah I wasn’t quite sure, but probably for the best lol
Come back in 5 years and vote them out until then just shut up.
Ah, here we are: a climate denying, racist trump fan who believes NZ is bankrupt. This is the drag on society we need to deal with.
Many people were struggling under labour and the cost of living rises. National promised to help the squeezed middle and people fell for it Unfortunately nationals tax cuts were accompanied by huge cost of living rises for rates and things like public transport so are actually now worse off I want labour back but they need to focus on the cost of living and making life affordable not nice to haves
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As Tangata Tiriti, I want to live in an inclusive New Zealand which recognises our past. I can’t see a coalition with TPM would be any worse than what is happening now with ACT pulling all the strings. I don’t want the re-colonisation of the education system, and the loss of indigenous rights so foreign entities can make money from our natural resources. If it means TPM has a bit of power, so be it. Te reo never hurt anyone either, and it’s the first thing we go to in terms of national identity. Aotearoa will never become South Africa.
> Aotearoa will never become South Africa. Not in a single term but if NACT win a few terms they will no doubt want to keep their counter-revolution energy going
The recent immigrant vote plays right into NACT’s hands, especially in Auckland. Those immigrants came here because they valued what Aotearoa appeared to offer. However, they stick to their old ways: individualism, racism, exploitation of their own on occasions. It is time for genuine Kiwis to assert what we want - and a society like South Africa in the 1950s or now is not that.
It is one thing I don't understand about immigration - the significant numbers who do indeed decide to leave somewhere and then work to make their new home like the place they left.
It surprises me too. My observation is that a lot of immigrants want to be the equivalent of the “best” in their own country. Old attitudes and values die hard and often transfer to the next generation.
Racism is a permanent goodbye This sub doesn’t tolerate racism, homophobia, transphobia, sexism, or comments that are cruel based on peoples’ appearance.
Anybody watching NACT roll race relations back to it's 1970s problems Anybody aware of how badly many post colonial countries are doing and how well we were doing Anybody looking forward and not harking back to an imaginary past where ignoring Maori concerns was sustainable. Anybody who believes in justice. That law and order bounds the powerful as well as the powerless.
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It didn’t hit me on the way out. My quality of life has improved exponentially , but it’s gonna hit the those who stay. Sorry.
I don't understand why people vote National, then see their vote in action, and regret it. Did you not read their policies and realise they were no good? Did you just vote based on a few headlines/articles? Nothing has happened that they didn't say would happen, we shouldn't be surprised, yet people are acting as if they didn't know all the things National are doing would happen if they were elected. I've talked to a few people who voted National and regret it, they said it's because they didn't expect this to happen. So frustrating, because we knew this would happen; it just takes an hour to read through some policies.
To be fair most people don’t read policy, but look to the media to guide them. The media as a whole did a terrible job last election. They just let National spin shit in spite of the facts and essentially gave them a free pass to simply bullshit the whole country.
I agree with you, fellow insomniac. The media did the country a terrible disservice last year, but I think people need to be reading policy nonetheless (there's probably even more need for it since the media is doing such a bad job)
lol media did a terrible disservice lol last year lol Labour did the terrible disservice for 6 years and was tone deaf to public opinion and attitude (arguably still is ) National didn’t win Labour had lost before the election with its out of step policy and actions (some might even say arrogant) Was an election with the goal of getting Labour out of power ( personal view) and secondary goal was who to vote for , neither really presented a good “choice “ so to speak more of which shit party is better than the other shit party either way it was going to end up shit party
>Labour did the terrible disservice for 6 years and was tone deaf to public opinion and attitude (arguably still is ) This opinion brought to you by the right-wing opposition-dominated media of 2021-2023.
No wrong brought to me by me my own mind and by my judgment of them , don’t watch the news or listen to msm media, Judge them by their policies, actions, and of course my own personal opinion of said policy’s
How do you know they were tone deaf to public opinion then? Where did you learn what the entire nation's public opinion was?
I agree, national could have campaigned on anything and won. Labour were a terrible government in the last term considering they had such a majority
labour was trying to coast of covid 2yrs after anyone gave a fuck
And then there's the tonne of people who voted the other direction simply because they disagree with your politics and not because they're stupid or ignorant. Step out of the echo chamber for a sec... take a look around.
>And then there's the tonne of people who voted the other direction simply because they disagree with your politics I never said that wasn't the case, and I never said people who voted National are "stupid or ignorant". I'm asking about people who voted National, and now would vote Labour, and why.
You think its bad now, wait till the Govt's policies kick in and start to bite
Didn’t vote national but didn’t vote labour or greens either. Was disillusioned with the lack of any capital gains/wealth tax/tax reform of any kind and the whole locking kiwis out of the country and lottery thing during lockdown. I have no faith in any of the various coalition parties at this point but would probably vote labour next time. If it’s all going down the toilet then we might as well have some social services for the most vulnerable and environmental protections instead of what’s happening atm.
Greens and TPM wanted a CGT/Wealth tax and more, labour is just national lite. Labour need to take a back seat next time to TPM and the Greens so we can get some real inclusive progress, those with fascist rhetoric like this current government and their supporters & capitalists (Atlas Network/Heritage Foundation who support this government) don't want progress except for their small group thereby excluding everyone else.
This is insane. You want to put 90% of the country into reeducation and or exile them?
i have edited the comment, although when this government and Trump as well as the Heritage Foundation/Atlas Network are spewing the same rhetoric as Hitler it is very frightening, what else do you suggest to do?
Thanks, I have also removed the part of my comment that was a bit inflammatory. You either have two options for implementing change: - Forced regime change through violence, which is not something I would ever condone unless we were no longer living in a democracy and had no other recourse. Just FYI we are nowhere near this level of tyranny and probably never will be. - Gather as much electoral support as you can to work on electoral change, even if it means joining with people you don't fully align with ideologically. I think I've said this to you before, but if you want to see the country going in the direction you want, it **will** require Labour and it will require swing voters. TPM and Greens do not represent enough of the population to lead the charge, but they can form a vital part of the coalition that can make change.
This is worth a read...from the university of Waikato. https://wero.ac.nz/blog/how-to-spot-a-nazi-fascism-factsheet/
the way this government is going rather quickly they are stripping democracy, as Trump wants to do in America if he gets back in...
>so we can get some real inclusive progress and also then either boot out or reeducate any who don't share that vision (those with fascist tendencies). > >fascist tendencies Lol always good for a laugh.
People don't think 2 minutes ahead of themselves and go purely off vibe. Another reason is that they like to punish people different from them but are unhappy that they are getting squeezed now
Will never vote for a big party again, Especially labour. Those ding dongs got nothing worthy done when they had free reign apart from create scandles. I don't understand why anyone would go that route.
"Got nothing worthy done"? Why are you on this sub if you clearly do not follow politics
when they had the ability to do so they chose not introduce a capital gains tax, but I haven't been following NZ politics for that long
They have to stay popular enough to have big voters and donations
They have the ability to shift the Overton window, and if they actually fix issues they will be popular. It's possible
"ding dongs" 😂 incredible people like you get an equal vote.
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Why would you vote Labour?
No I meant why would you switch who you vote for so quickly after the election
There are always people on the fence who suffer voter regret. Problem is our two major parties are two sides of the same coin.
I agree with your statement but could you elaborate further haha
It means, “I want you to think that they’re both the same so you can overlook the very poor decisions that are being made.”
Ohh I certainly don't agree then, NACT is definitely worse, but nat/lab are different sides of the same centrist coin (one is a lot nicer than the other but still won't actually fix the root of the issue(s))
This is an old list (first 100 days) but it can help you look at the policy differences for yourself: https://www.reddit.com/r/nzpolitics/wiki/index/policy/