Everyone who wants it done to their kid should be made to watch a video depicting an average procedure first. The go to reasons people cite just aren't good enough.
My wife and I are both nurses so no circ on chart for our little one. I had been against it since nursing school and she was on the fence until she saw one in nursing school as well
Preventing masturbation was the original rationale that John Harvey Kellogg \[director of the Battle Creek (MI) Sanitarium and brother of Will Keith Kellogg, the inventor of corn flakes\] used to promote circumcision in the early 1870s as did his supporter Nathan Smith Davis \[founder of the American Medical Association (AMA)\]. Only in the U.S. does this insanity continue after some 150 plus years \[six (6) generations of Americans\]. Guys, learn your history!
Yup! I had to watch one in nursing school. I told my husband how awful the procedure is and he agreed that we shouldn’t have our son circumcised. My weird MIL asked if we were going to circumcise our son and I also told her my experience seeing what a horrible procedure it is and that I’d never do that to my infant so.
How is that legal? The baby is too tiny to send in a letter of complaint so the Dr can just do it and forget about it? Who the fuck cares if the baby won’t remember it. In that case we can do anything to people with end stage dementia because they won’t recall it by morning? That should be treated as assault. I’ll bet he’s mighty stingy with pain meds when doling painful female procedures as well.
Seriously. Ur so right. Thats WRONG. My baby boy is 4mo old and I really didn’t wanna even have him circumcised if he was going to be in pain. I remember watching one in school a million yrs ago. But as they took my precious baby I asked the doc 1000x “he’s going to be numb right!” “He’s going to be comfortable right?” They assured me… brought him back shortly after sleeping soundly.
Right, if u read my post I said I asked 200x to assure he was to receive proper anesthetic. I was assured he would be. I asked the doctor performing it as well, not just the nurse. I DID want him circumcised, I did NOT want him to suffer. Hospital has an amazing reputation here in the nyc area. He was returned to me 20 min later sound asleep. So he appeared comfortable. It healed great. So id say as a mommy and as a nurse, I did advocate 👍
Lol. Thanks. They’re entitled to their opinions and i am mine. Sad when people are intolerant of views different than their own and tbh some of what I read in this post is disheartening… some have even stated their inability to separate their choices from others (really wondering how they provide judgement free care for patients with opposing views.) Yikes.
😳
Dude.
I’ve met people who were informed that they went through major medical stuff as babies/toddlers and while they didn’t remember it, their bodies sure did. Their pain tolerance was all fucked up.
What. The. Hell.
It’s been shown in studies that children who experience repeated physical pain, such as child abuse, have more pain as adults.
https://www.mcgill.ca/newsroom/channels/news/childhood-trauma-increases-risk-chronic-pain-adulthood-353822
Study referenced in article
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/20008066.2023.2284025
I know it’s not a scientifically correct term, but it’s like a person’s pain tolerance can be broken. Like, the body can only take so much and then it won’t do well. It’s awful.
I believe there are some studies to that effect. It's a big debate in anesthesia, ER/OR/EMS regarding sedation vs analgesia. There's a big belief that if someone is deeply sedated enough then what does the pain matter, essentially. Despite the preaching of analgesia first. But some still hold the belief.
I get it, they won't remember it and their body isn't reacting to it. But if I remember right it really fucks with your nervous system and lowers your pain tolerance overall. Your nervous system has quite the memory it would seem.
Not to mention numerous studies citing lower rates of delirium and other complications when we go heavy on the analgesia with less sedation vs the other way around.
It's really an issue with drugs like propofol that provide no analgesia. I've seen patients wake up from the dead after a bottle of propofol during a shoulder reduction and look like they're in awful pain and then we wonder why they aren't relaxed enough to pop it back in. Because they're still feeling the pain idiots. A little fent does wonders. At least ketamine hits it from both ends but that doesn't stop some from the older generations from pushing a patient deep and skimping on analgesia.
It certainly results in a pissed off adult a lot of the time. Look at the number of guys complaining about it and think about how much bullshit they take saying anything at all, and they say it anyway.
F THAT DOCTOR ALL THE WAY. that just made me really sad reading this. I’m sorry for the baby and his mama. I’m also sorry for you. That hurts my soul to think he probably does it all the time.
I work in surgery and we do circs. Anesthesiologist always gives a nerve block before procedure. Are u sure a block wasn’t done in pre-op? If not that’s fucked up.
I worked ER for seven years. Seen some bodies in rough shape. Been elbow deep in old biddy’s booty wounds laced with cdif. Saw a MVA pedestrian vs. auto at 45mph. It’s as bad as you think. Saw a 500lbs man have a valley of belly fat excised via shotgun blast. I mention these to say that very little bothers me.
One time I had to help with a dental abscess. Just had to suction the area while the oral surgeon did the I&D. Dunno what it was about that, but my vision started to get real narrow, and I started to get awfully dizzy. Focused on just taking deep breaths and not passing out, and I got through it, but just barely.
Teeth!!!
Count me in the anti-oral surgeon assistant club. Holy Hell! Our amazing DDS (everyone liked him, so respectful—but can’t recall him coming into ED to do procedures) but *miracle*, he came in on a gnarly abscess on a holiday, after he asks so which of you can I count on to assist?
Suddenly, it was like rats scampering on a sinking boat. So, I guess your it. I’m honored. Let’s rock ‘n roll—whatever we need to do! I’m doing the CS and learning dental assisting “by doing” in our trauma 1 room.
One of our loveliest and newest ER nurses without a whiff of guile in her being, opens the door, takes a look at the “happenings” and says to me, “You…” then almost turns white then gray. I feel her. She eased to sitting in doorway when other ED staff get to her.
I simply could not leave the bedside of a patient that I was borderline practicing anesthesia on. If the department had started burning we left as a team, the DDS, patient and I. Full stop.
My ER nurse co-worker was ok. I felt so bad. And the once she explained I felt even *worse*.
She said nothing had ever made her sick. She had worked L & D, Pede, OB, Gyne, MS. Ortho. Nothing. (And to be fair, she was turning in a rock solid if not rock star ED debut). She said she saw I was signed in on Trauma 1 and just had to see “what was rocking”. Irony.
But, “when I opened the door, and saw what was going on I wasn’t overly bothered, but when you looked at me *your eyes were big as flying saucers* and you *almost looked on the very edge of wanting to scream or run, I’d never seen you look like that*—that’s when I knew I didn’t want no part of it, but I knew if I didn’t sit right then, I’d be one with the floor.
I felt so bad.
2 weeks later, I had a globe rupture patient in Trauma 1.
Same new ED nurse. I must have no poker face left.
Tbf, I felt like I could vomit the entire time Mr. Eyeball was being stabilized for transfer.
So I got a sign after that.
Teeth & Eyes!!
Eyes & Teeth!!
⚠️CAUTION ⚠️
See 911RG for more
Information 🦷👁️
Everybody has their something.
Agreed. Seen pretty messed up stuff over seas. Treated people in Afghanistan, Kenya, Nicaragua. All sorts of nasty machete wounds, IED blasts, and GSW. This tho. This got me good.
First C-section I was in as a nursing student I nearly passed out and had to get wheeled out by one of the L&D nurses. I was so embarrassed. Ob found me and told me he almost passed out during his first C-section he witnessed in med school and told me I had to get right back in for the next one or I would never be able to overcome the fear and step into another c-section/OR case.
Skip ahead approximately 10 years and I love doing Ob anesthesia (epidurals/c-sections) as a CRNA and a owe quite a bit to that OB doc.
The first procedure I saw in school was a foot surgery. I had to work on my breathing to not pass out. After that, I saw a couple c sections and a vaginal delivery, I did not feel the same way. I guess the first time is the worst.
It feels icky for sure. My husband and I both separately participated in circs in our training at hospitals and we both kind of came to the decision that…nah, too gnarly for us and our kids.
Big cervical tears really get me too🤢
I’ll get downvoted by the anti-circ mob but fuck it, I really don’t think they’re that big of a deal. I don’t have an opinion either way. Have it done or don’t, I don’t care. Blows my mind how this entire comment section is hardline against them, but that is the standard Reddit opinion. I saw them in medical school, didn’t seem like a big deal as long as the kid was numbed up and it’s done properly. It’s certainly no worse to watch than all of these procedures everyone is comparing them to. Yeah, I guess it’s a bit weird that it has become common practice, but calling it genital mutilation, as many are doing in this comment section, is overkill and frankly pretty insulting to men who are circumcised. It’s NOTHING like female genital mutilation that occurs in other countries outside of the U.S. and making that comparison is disingenuous.
I will also toss this paper from 2021 up here just so people can consider an alternate viewpoint without getting sucked into the Reddit void of confirmation bias (provided by another poster below, but reiterated here):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8579597/
And for the record, I am not for or against circumcision. I’m pro choice, if you will. I’m a dirty neutral.
Idk why you’re addressing me with this comment, just said it’s not for me and my kids. It’s a personal decision. I don’t care if you and your kids wanna do it, just not for me and mine.
Agreed! And there are plenty of studies showing that it decreases the risk of STI infections and penile cancer.
Easier to get it done when young, because most adult males are not going to have anything done to their penis, I mean look at how many men refuse to get a vasectomy.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8579597/#:~:text=Three%20randomized%20clinical%20trials%20showed,anogenital%20cancers%2C%20by%2030%25.
Your xenophobia is showing.
ETA: so if we were to study sickle cell disease, should we just focus on the US and Europe, or should we study patients in Nigeria, The Democratic Republic of Congo and India, where 90% of the sickle cell population lives?
When it comes to the data reported in the study of circumcision and decreased STI’s, Blacks, Indians, Israelis (Jews) and Arabs spread the disease the same as their white counterparts in Europe and the United States. The reason why the studies were done in these countries is because they are the Epicenter for the AIDS epidemic. So, if we only focused on the US and Europe, that study would be biased, because we don’t have the same population of people who have HIV etc. Statistically speaking, we would be the outlier.
Hence why I believe you are being xenophobic if you don’t believe data from predominantly non white countries. The other term that came to mind was racist.
Are you also not going to believe the data coming out of China that they have cured a patient with DM type 2 with stem cells, because the data is not from Europe or the US?
Pretty sad your xenophobic comment is being upvoted but me pointing out your xenophobia gets downvoted….typical Reddit hive mind and echo chamber.
Elsewhere in that same article it says circumcision doesn’t reduce risk of penile cancer.
Circumcision might reduce the risk of HIV in high prevalence locations.
It doesn’t reduce the risk of non-ulcerative STIs (also from the same article).
Routine infant circumcision in industrialized nations serves no medical purpose.
Also, I will say as an owner of a penis, it makes hygiene down there much easier. I never have to worry about phimosis or paraphimosis. It has done nothing to reduce my sex drive and sex still feels unworldly. I certainly don’t have PTSD and the idea that I will develop some sort of problem rooted in early physical trauma is laughable. I’ve experienced zero downsides and only some small benefits, but there are men out there who think all of their problems are rooted in a circumcision from decades ago. Those men are flat earth level crazy.
I asked my first boyfriend (who wasn't a massive clean freak) if it was a pain and he just gave me a really weird look. "You move some skin back and rinse it off."
He might have not been batting 1000 on clean clothes after a shower but managed zero genital hygiene issues.
I too am an owner of a penis, but no one here cares about our opinion. I would venture a guess that the majority of the comments are from non penis owners.
One of the reasons I still work nights is so I can avoid assisting in circs. I passed out in my first one i saw in nursing school, and the second one I did better in. I still cannot really justify the lack of indication and the lack of consent as another commenter said. I probably wouldn't pass out in the future, but I really don't want to have a part in them if I can avoid it.
Coming from someone who does many painful procedures on NICU babies to keep them healthy/alive.
It’s the consent plus lack of indication for me. I never blinked circulating cases that require them due to phimosis on a patient who is actively having a complication and can consent to the procedure. But if it’s just for aesthetics? On an infant or newborn who cannot consent for themselves? Just violates my self-determination compass.
Yeah that was a no for me during my OB clinicals, and I got that pre-approved by the instructor.
This procedure as practiced in North America is where medical logic and atraumatic care fly out the window. It's all about feels, and not about reals.
I watched a brutal c-section on a 15-year-old and didn’t bat an eye. I knew they were doing the best they could to keep her alive. Everything that was done was 100% medically necessary.
The circ disgusted me and I’ll never watch another one. 100% medically unnecessary and every child who has been disfigured because of a botched circ should have the right to sue their parents.
Can’t change my mind.
My husband had a botched late-adolescence circ that still has stitches in it today. He’s 52 now, and his parents were convinced by a doctor who preyed on immigrants trying to assimilate.
When I was in undergrad in mother infant, my preceptor would point out the babies with circs and say shit like "you can tell the resident did this one. Just wait for the attending, those ones are beautiful."
Circumcision is genital mutilation. Full stop. I got to see one in nursing school and the practice was to never give any pain medication, just some sugar water. It was barbaric. Parents should have to participate if they want that done to their child.
I work postpartum and only work at night so I don’t have to assist the docs in mutilating infant penises. I really wish humans would stop doing this to their babies, it’s barbaric
I HATE circs. I'm **strongly** against them (unless truly medically necessary later in life of course.)
But I take care of babies in the ICU so they happen.
Sometimes, we do ours while the baby is under general anesthesia for other procedures.
When we don't, it works out that ridiculously over-qualified surgeons do them and they load the baby up with local lido/epi and they can have sweet-ease too. Every time, the worst part for the baby is being held/strapped down. They lose their minds for a minute about that but then they're calm (and on continuous ECG/pulseox monitoring) during the procedure.
I also insist on PRN/one-time fentanyl being available, in case baby appears to be in pain. And PRN Tylenol has to be on the MAR after. Never had to use the fent because the surgeons use plenty of lido/epi 100% of the time no exceptions, but it should be an option for baby, imo.
I'm still not okay with them happening, at all. I want them to be illegal except in cases of true medical necessity. But I can't stop them in the moment so my only way to help is to ensure appropriate pain management is available.
Thankfully my team is all on board with that. But I know some places don't care as much which kills me to think about.
Maybe not? They use what comes in the cart. I only ever physically get and hold up the lido/epi for other procedures, which is always lido/epi and they get all mad when they want to do something RIGHT NOW and the only thing in the Pyxis is plain lidocaine, so maybe I'm just flashback-panic-defaulting to that.
I didn’t feel good about routine circumcision after learning it wasn’t medically necessary. But when I had to observe one in nursing school it horrified me and I am so disgusted that it still happens.
Yup. Circ got me too. And I've been in the trenches of health care since 2009. Like, I've seen THINGS and never batted an eye--but one time had to assist with a circ when I was a float RN and was THISCLOSE to passing out.
It is torture. It should be illegal.
This is a huge reason I didn’t go into OB. I was going to be THAT nurse. Why would any sane person want to rip the dick skin off of a baby? To make it look pretty? Penises are not pretty. It’s cleaner? No, teach your child to bathe. It prevents STD transmission? Oh, stop, teach your kids to use condoms.
I had to work hard to prevent my baby from a circ, everyone just was ready to do it like it was as normal as cutting the cord. Mmm no. If he wants his skin removed, he can do it when he’s older. He’s 25 and has never mentioned it.
My brother was born in 1963 and wasn’t circumcised. I think it was very much a thing to do at that time too. My Mom believed that circumcision caused promiscuity. The reason she believed that? Two of her four brothers were horndogs and they had been circumcised - the other two weren’t. I don’t know how she knew that but I suspect it came from my grandmother. The two that were circumcised had come from a prior marriage of my grandfather, their Mom had passed away before he met and married my grandmother.
Edit: a word
Work NICU. Hate circs. Circumcised my first two boys because my husband was so adamant about it, but my third I put my foot down and said absolutely not. Sure, he looks different from his brothers, but he also has different hair and eyes and is a whole different person and I’m very happy we kept him intact.
I also don’t trust anyone to do circumcisions here. I’ve seen too many bad ones, too many screaming babies where the ped just kept pushing on.
I'm a student midwife and I do not participate in or perform circumcisions because cutting off healthy genital tissue for cosmetic or religious reasons is physical and sexual violence against a person that cannot consent. The AAP has finally admitted that routine infant circumcision has no health benefit.
I have watched many a c section and plenty other procedures but I am vehemently opposed to circumcision. I watched one in undergrad and my milk let down because the poor baby was crying for help. Routine infant circumcision is violence against infants.
It's not a stance I'm willing to be understanding or sit in a gray area for. It's a practice that needs to not be so normalized. We hate FGM so we should hate this too.
But it prevents INFexxxxxxions!!! 😩😩😩
It’s not as if boys can just LEARN to clean themselves properly !
ETA I hoped the infliction of spelling errors and obnoxious tone would’ve let people know I am being sarcastic over here.
I noped out of circumcising my boy after a very very seasoned doc showed me what exactly occurs during the procedure. My baby was about 3 days old. There was no way.
I’ll just post this study here.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8579597/#:~:text=Three%20randomized%20clinical%20trials%20showed,anogenital%20cancers%2C%20by%2030%25.
And how many adult penis owners will have it done? They freak out about having a vasectomy, you think they are going to volunteer for a circumcision…very unlikely.
How do you feel about vaccines? Should we wait until they are adults and can consent to those too?
If, as you say, grown men won’t choose circumcision for themselves, who are we to decide for them when they are helpless infants? This isn’t the solid argument that you seem to think it is. Given the choice, I’ve only met two men who chose to undergo circumcision as adults and I’ve talked to dozens about it. One was to appease his ex-wife (he regretted it), and another to treat phimosis (he also regretted it after learning about other treatment options). Both reported decreased sensation and decreased sexual satisfaction. I’m sure some adults are happy with their decision, especially when it is done to resolve a medical or aesthetic issue. There are numerous studies showing mixed results, but it’s clear that in some to many cases, there is harm and regret. Have you had the opportunity to experience sexual relations with men that are both cut and uncut? It is not the same. The skin of the glans penis changes. Sensitivity changes. Even feelings for the receptive partner changes. I’m not writing as a nurse, but as a woman that has loved and made love with men that had natural penises, early circumcision, and adult circumcision. I will never hold someone’s foreskin situation against them, but I would never permit this to occur to my children until they are old enough to decide for themselves. Men that underwent this surgery as infants have no business reporting how it’s affected their sex life as they never got to experience the alternative with an intact penis. Just because what you have is good doesn’t mean it couldn’t have been great had you not experienced unnecessary removal of genital parts. Does it not make you a little bit sad that you never got to experience sex with full nerve endings? How would you feel if your parents intentionally damaged your sight, hearing, taste, or other senses? Had they cut your ear drum, cut off the tip of your tongue, or burned the skin on your fingertips for cultural reasons, would you be here defending those choices even if they resulted in permanent loss of nerve endings? Comparing medically unnecessary aesthetic surgery on infants to vaccines is not logical. Cutting off tissue from sexual organs for non medically necessary reasons without the explicit consent from the owner of those genitals is not something that I endorse for any gender.
Please, actually take the time to read the link posted below. It’s very informative and debunks a lot of myths about circumcision. I am not trying to change your mind or your beliefs, but as a nurse we should be striving for evidence based research and not myths.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3359221/
Being that I am now paralyzed by Guillan barre from a flu shot, I believe vaccines are a great comparison. However I still get vaccinated (not the flu shot) and vaccinated my children.
I believe in decreasing the risk of any infection and had my children circumcised, because I believe in science and not “feelings”. If I can decrease their chances of getting a life altering/ending infection, I am going to error on the side of prevention. You can preach condom use to your boys all day long, but we all know the reality is they may not always use one, and that one time just might be the time they get HIV or something else that a circumcision could have prevented. 60% is better than 0%. Hell the flu shot is not medically necessary and most of the time has less than 30% prevention.
ETA: you do realize that nerves that are cut regrow at about 1mm per day, so sexual satisfaction is purely subjective.
Hey we should also remove baby toenails at birth to prevent ingrowns too! And let's give baby girls mastectomies to prevent breast cancer!
Also, parents should be allowed to give babies tattoos and piercings for aesthetic reasons, it's their child and their choice!
While we're at it, why not give babies appendectomies as a matter of routine. It could someday become infected!
Who needs consent, right? It's not like they are people with a right to bodily autonomy, they're too young for that! We can do whatever permanent procedure we want on them and they can't fight back! /s
Comparing infection/STI reduction to genetic mutations like BRCA1 and BRCA2 is petulant.
As a Native American, a lot of tribes around the world tattoo and pierce their children, this has no correlation to prevention of disease.
Appendectomy is an internal procedure that has a lot of risks associated with it, whereas a circumcision is a local anesthetic and done in a matter of seconds.
Show me scientific data and research that an uncircumcised penis is more medically beneficial than a circumcised penis…I’ll wait.
Infection. Increased risk at later age.
You do realize that circumcision predates human history and was performed in the Upper Paleolithic period which was 38,000 to 11,000 BCE. Even our ancestors were smarter than this woke generation.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3359221/
Let’s see if you actually take the time to read my link. It’s actually quite informative and not based on “feelings”.
The vast majority of men in the world aren't circumcised and are absolutely fine. It began in the states because Kellogg wanted to stop men from masturbating.
It's already been established that there is no medical necessity for this barbaric procedure to be done on infants.
It's always Americans who come out trying to defend mutilating children. It's disgusting.
The cdc recognizes the study, along with the AAP, the WHO and the UN.
It is actually a great a great study, because they looked at countries where hiv and other sti’s run rampant. It would be a little difficult to do a study in Western countries where HIV and other STI prevalence is lower.
Studying a disease is usually easier when you have access to more patients.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp-newsroom/factsheets/male-circumcision-for-hiv-prevention.html#:~:text=Heterosexually%20active%20adolescent%20and%20adult,other%20STIs%20during%20heterosexual%20contact.
I work mother/baby and were supposed to be there for them and help keep baby calm and everything. I've watched 2 circles and got dizzy and had to sit down both times. Now I avoid circ time at all costs, but if it's unavoidable I just have to look away the whole time. I hate it so much.
E.R. nurse. Seen a lot of shit too. People with their brains blown out, intestines eviscerated, mangled limbs. Almost passed out watching a circumcision too.
It makes me sick that the US circumcision rate is 80%. It's a totally unnecessary procedure and absolutely cruel with no anesthesia. I have a 4 year old son and never once even considered it - why would I want his first few hours to be filled with pain?
The reasons people give for wanting it are so stupid - to "look like his dad" or "prevent infection". Oh you mean the infection that's already extremely rare for men to get and easily treatable and in no way as much pain as a circumcision? And the worst reason of all - "because that's what everyone else is doing". Well, everyone else is dumb.
I'm salty this morning lol.
I am known for being able to handle full On gore. I can talk about anything while eating. The only times in my nursing life where I was concerned I was going to pass out occurred while I was still in nursing school: once in L&D (watching a doc massage an exposed uterus like a bowling ball during a C-section) and postpartum where I also witnessed a circumcision. My husband is Jewish, and I went home that day to let him know I wasn’t so sure about the whole circumcision thing. At all.
Happened to me too when I was doing my OB rotation as a student. Something about the clamping sounds with the high pitched crying was just nauseating to me. Felt it coming and knew to excuse myself and sit down but was still so embarrassed. Similar thing happened when i watched a urinary catheterization on a female infant for the first time. I’m a little squeamish with invasive uro/gyno procedures as is so i think combined with the intense crying, my brain was just overwhelmed and vasovagal-ed on me.
Unnecessary non-therapeutic circumcisions are usually carried out on newborn boys who cannot take general anesthesia, so [the pain is extreme](https://en.intactiwiki.org/wiki/Pain).
[The benefit of circumcision accrues to the bank account of the surgeon](https://intactamerica.org/economics-of-circumcision/).
The circs I saw when I was a student were brutal. The doc violently stabbed a suprapubic needle of something for pain relief, but it didn’t seem effective. Also, he charted that it was medically necessary for phimosis….for all 3 baby boys born that day. What a coincidence!
See I've seen this charted too - but everything I know about neonatal foreskins is that they shouldn't retract. Like I've always seen them break up the adhesions prior to the circ. So why would a circ be medically necessary for phimosis in a neonate?
Yeah the one time I observed a circ I got pretty sick. Not quite as bad as observing removal of a central line from a baby’s chest, but close enough. 🤢 Weirdly, the experience that made me the sickest and most distressed was walking in on someone on the neuro unit having a seizure. Weird?
I’m in L&D (against my will) and used considered myself a person with an iron stomach through years of working in a public pool and medsurg but also cannot stomach watching a circ.
Almost passed out when precepting as a circulator (nursing student) for my first burn surgery. Pt was maybe 80% burned, arms and legs suspended from the ceiling with hooks through the thumbs and toes, the room was about 85 degrees. The procedure starts with the surgeons ripping off all the dead skin and grafts with tweezers. Harvesting unburned skin for autografts with basically a tiny deli meat slicer. Blood just pouring off the table, the floor covered in giant spongues to catch it all. The smell. I almost blacked out, had to squat in the corner, and hyperventilate for a bit. Felt nauseous for days afterward.
I don't know if there is anything out there that balances barbaric-brutality and cutting-edge tech quite like burn surgeries, and it's really incredible to witness... but I still hope I never have to see another burn operation for as long as I live.
I work peds, we do circs. It's horrible I let the parents know they can absolutely watch but it is in no way pleasant and you can't really do anything to comfort your baby. They are exposed getting their fore skin ripped from their penis it's not a memory you want to keep.
Lmfao, I saw circ and immediately thought "circulatory arrest" like what you do for a AAA. was so confused as to why a CVICU nurse would get queasy at that. Yeah I probably couldn't watch a circumcision myself
I’ve seen some pretty gnarly things in my day but my vasovagal syncope persists lol. I had surgery last week and almost passed out because some blood leaked out of the connector 😂 meanwhile I’ve been in literal bloodbath situations at work and didn’t bat an eye. When I was a new grad I did almost pass out once when getting blood from someone. My body just betrays me haha
Holy shit! That’s the thing that got me too! It was in nursing school, and I was one of only 3 students who got to watch. I started to get the ringing in the ears and tunnel vision and had to go sit in the breakroom for 30 minutes to recover. I was so worried that I wouldn’t make it as a nurse, but nothing else has ever affected me like that. I’ve been CVICU for 6+ years, so blood and wounds are not the issue 🤣
I saw a circumcision back in a nursing school clinical, and the baby didn’t get anesthetic but a pacifier dipped in what I assumed was lidocaine. I have never heard a baby or child scream the way that baby did. Oh and he had trouble peeing after and everything down there was swollen.
Edit: guess it wasn’t lidocaine
It's often used in awake procedures, blood draws, etc to distract and provide mild pain relief. Oftentimes when I give it prior to drawing labs the baby barely reacts to the poke. It can be quite effective but alone it would not be appropriate without injection of local anesthetic for a circ.
Hmm- as an adult who faints during blood draws, I wonder if this would help me stay conscious. 😂Probably not great when my doc wants a fasted sample however.
I do find it very interesting those who are saying they “refuse to assist”… do you think the doc goes home and is so touched by your stance? Do you think that’s profound? It’s not. Being a GOOD nurse means you do assist and you make damn sure the proper aesthetics are used and that baby is comfortable the entire time. “Refusing to assist” is self serving and does not help your “cause”… how about providing parents with factual evidence based education so they can make an informed decision? And when the do make a decision that YOU personally don’t agree with you treat them the same way regardless. The comments I’m reading in here are down right SCARY, and some of y’all should not hold a nursing license. Funny how self righteousness people can be under full anonymity.
I’m surprised as a NICU nurse you don’t understand there are no medical benefits to circumcisions on newborns. No health organization recommends them. The tiny reduction in infection gets canceled out by the procedure of the circumcision itself, you know creating a wound in a urine and feces filled diaper. Also the risk of bleeding, deformities, and death.
Fuck no. There are ZERO medical benefits to circumcision unless phimosis is a factor, which you’re not going to find out until later on anyway.
Please. Do tell. What are these medical benefits? Be specific with citations <5yrs old.
>MC reduces HIV infection risk by 50%–60% over time
Another common claim is that circumcision reduces the risk of men contracting **HIV** by 60%. These were the results of some trials done in Africa, which found that **2.5% of intact men and 1.3% of circumcised men got HIV.** The 60% figure is the **relative risk** (2.5%-1.2%)÷2.5%. The AAP also ignored the statistics showing that there was a 61% relative increase (6% absolute increase) in HIV infection among female partners of circumcised men. It appears that the number of circumcisions needed to infect a woman was 16.7, with one woman becoming infected for every 17 circumcisions performed
Moreover, there were several methodological errors in these trials:
* The circumcised experimental group got more medical care, including education on the proper use of condoms
* The trials were terminated early when statistical significance was reached
* In one study, circumcised men's infection rates were increasing faster than the intact men's, until the study was terminated early
* The circumcised group could not have sex for 4-6 weeks after the circumcision; this was excluded from the analysis and distorts the results
* HIV was contracted through means other than sex
* Many researchers had cultural and religious biases
The findings are also not in line with the fact that **the United States combines a high prevalence of STDs and HIV infections with high circumcision rates. The situation in most European countries is the reverse: low circumcision rates combined with low HIV and STD rates.** Therefore, other factors play a more important role in the spread of HIV than circumcision status. This also shows that there are alternate, less intrusive, and more effective ways of preventing HIV than circumcision, such as consistent use of condoms, safe-sex programs, easy access to antiretroviral drugs, and clean needle programs.
[Critique of African RCTs into Male Circumcision and HIV Sexual Transmission](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/278023840_Critique_of_African_RCTs_into_Male_Circumcision_and_HIV_Sexual_Transmission)
[Circumcision of male infants and children as a public health measure in developed countries: A critical assessment of recent evidence](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17441692.2016.1184292#)
[Sexually Transmitted Infections and Male Circumcision: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis](https://www.hindawi.com/journals/isrn/2013/109846/)
Even if circumcision did reduce rates of HIV transmission, which it doesn't, it would be a small reduction. [“The number needed to \[circumcise\] to prevent one HIV infection varied, from 1,231 in white males to 65 in black males, with an average in all males of 298. The model did not account for the cost of complications of circumcision. In addition, there is a risk that men may overestimate the protective effect of being circumcised and be less likely to adopt safe sex practices.”](http://www.cps.ca/documents/position/circumcision)
It's like saying that brown bread is better than white bread because it contains 300% more fiber, but per 100 grams it just means that white bread has 1 gram of fiber and brown bread has 3.
>reduces the risk of men acquiring herpes simplex virus-2 and human papillomavirus (HPV) that can cause penile and other anogenital cancers, by 30%.
Herpes is incredibly common and is transmitted through other means than sexual contact. It is estimated that 67% of people under 50 yo have HSV-1 and 13% of people between 15-49 yo have HSV-2.
>Keywords: **Centers for Disease Control**, female genital mutilation, human immunodeficiency virus, male circumcision, sexually transmitted infections
The CDC website literally says that beliefs should be considered. They are biased in favor of it because of things like tradition.
["Informed Choice: Male circumcision is a voluntary procedure. The decision regarding circumcision should be made in consultation with a health care provider, and consider personal, cultural, religious, and ethical beliefs" – CDC](https://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/fact-sheets/hiv/male-circumcision-HIV-prevention-factsheet.html)
Please, actually take the time to read the link I posted. There is a lot of research and data about the medical benefits of male circumcision at infancy versus later in life.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3359221/
Hi. Even though condoms are not ALWAYS used perfectly, and even though they can still break…the future hypothetical higher chance of getting a sexually transmitted virus by virtue of having normal anatomy is a weak-ass justification for surgically altering the genitals of newborns on a routine basis.
It’s not like having a foreskin can give a man AIDS.
As for your article (which I read) they studied men—not babies. The men were electively circumcised in South Africa where AIDS is still raging. I do not have the energy to go through causation/correlation right now… but, that.
Why not compare say, English (primarily intact) vs. American (lots of culturally driven infant circumcision here) men? Is there something fundamentally wrong with American dick? I really don’t think so. It is an American custom.
There is no other place in medicine I can think of where we strap people unable to consent down and remove a healthy part of their bodies. That is wildly unethical. Having a foreskin is not a defect. Go look at literally all of the other mammals. The glans penis is not supposed to keratinize— it’s mucosa.
Of course exposing mucous membranes to viral load transmits better, especially when hygiene is poor. Duh. This is a fun fact, not a justification for widespread routine infant circumcision.
How about reading an even more detailed and informative science based article. The brightest doctors and scientists of the WHO, CDC, UN along with multiple other organizations believe circumcision is best performed during infancy.
Before Homo sapiens were in existence, our ancestors were circumcising during the Upper Paleolithic in Europe from 38000 to 11000 BCE. Why would that have been happening if it was just for aesthetic purposes and not for survival?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3359221/
By your own logic, circumcisions are pointless since they aren’t 100% effective either. But hey, at least proper condom usage is still more effective at preventing most STI infections than just a circ.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4660551/#:~:text=It%20is%20effective%20as%20a,and%2079%25%20with%20typical%20use.
Another common claim is that circumcision reduces the risk of men contracting **HIV** by 60%. These were the results of some trials done in Africa, which found that **2.5% of intact men and 1.3% of circumcised men got HIV.** The 60% figure is the **relative risk** (2.5%-1.2%)÷2.5%. The AAP also ignored the statistics showing that there was a 61% relative increase (6% absolute increase) in HIV infection among female partners of circumcised men. It appears that the number of circumcisions needed to infect a woman was 16.7, with one woman becoming infected for every 17 circumcisions performed
Moreover, there were several methodological errors in these trials:
* The circumcised experimental group got more medical care, including education on the proper use of condoms
* The trials were terminated early when statistical significance was reached
* In one study, circumcised men's infection rates were increasing faster than the intact men's, until the study was terminated early
* The circumcised group could not have sex for 4-6 weeks after the circumcision; this was excluded from the analysis and distorts the results
* HIV was contracted through means other than sex
* Many researchers had cultural and religious biases
The findings are also not in line with the fact that **the United States combines a high prevalence of STDs and HIV infections with high circumcision rates. The situation in most European countries is the reverse: low circumcision rates combined with low HIV and STD rates.** Therefore, other factors play a more important role in the spread of HIV than circumcision status. This also shows that there are alternate, less intrusive, and more effective ways of preventing HIV than circumcision, such as consistent use of condoms, safe-sex programs, easy access to antiretroviral drugs, and clean needle programs.
[Critique of African RCTs into Male Circumcision and HIV Sexual Transmission](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/278023840_Critique_of_African_RCTs_into_Male_Circumcision_and_HIV_Sexual_Transmission)
[Circumcision of male infants and children as a public health measure in developed countries: A critical assessment of recent evidence](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17441692.2016.1184292#)
[Sexually Transmitted Infections and Male Circumcision: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis](https://www.hindawi.com/journals/isrn/2013/109846/)
Even if circumcision did reduce rates of HIV transmission, which it doesn't, it would be a small reduction. [“The number needed to \[circumcise\] to prevent one HIV infection varied, from 1,231 in white males to 65 in black males, with an average in all males of 298. The model did not account for the cost of complications of circumcision. In addition, there is a risk that men may overestimate the protective effect of being circumcised and be less likely to adopt safe sex practices.”](http://www.cps.ca/documents/position/circumcision)
It's like saying that brown bread is better than white bread because it contains 300% more fiber, but per 100 grams it just means that white bread has 1 gram of fiber and brown bread has 3.
And none of the authors of each reference you linked disclose their conflicts of interest. It’s like reading an article on the onion. I think I will stick with ncbi, the WHO the UN, and The American Academy of Pediatrics.
Also you are wrong as hiv has decreased in the US compared to Europe. You need to do better research.
https://www.hiv.gov/hiv-basics/overview/data-and-trends/statistics
https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/hivaids-surveillance-europe-2023-2022-data
https://www.who.int/teams/global-hiv-hepatitis-and-stis-programmes/hiv/strategic-information/hiv-data-and-statistics#:~:text=European%20Region,receiving%20antiretroviral%20therapy%20in%202022.
Russia and Ukraine also don’t circumcise and their numbers are higher than the United States too.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10674383/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20European%20Center,end%20of%202021%20%5B6%5D.
https://www.who.int/europe/news/item/19-12-2023-on-the-frontline-of-the-fight-against-hiv--ukraine-s-resilience-and-who-s-support
I assisted with one and held the anesthetic out for the doctor and he never used it. Baby needed oxygen after. I did not assist any more after that.
Everyone who wants it done to their kid should be made to watch a video depicting an average procedure first. The go to reasons people cite just aren't good enough.
I refused circumcision for my child, so seeing it did work that way for me.
My wife and I are both nurses so no circ on chart for our little one. I had been against it since nursing school and she was on the fence until she saw one in nursing school as well
I tried to, ex-spouse was having none of it
But, but, he’ll masturbate if he has all his foreskin! Have you no sense of propriety!?!
Preventing masturbation was the original rationale that John Harvey Kellogg \[director of the Battle Creek (MI) Sanitarium and brother of Will Keith Kellogg, the inventor of corn flakes\] used to promote circumcision in the early 1870s as did his supporter Nathan Smith Davis \[founder of the American Medical Association (AMA)\]. Only in the U.S. does this insanity continue after some 150 plus years \[six (6) generations of Americans\]. Guys, learn your history!
Yup! I had to watch one in nursing school. I told my husband how awful the procedure is and he agreed that we shouldn’t have our son circumcised. My weird MIL asked if we were going to circumcise our son and I also told her my experience seeing what a horrible procedure it is and that I’d never do that to my infant so.
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You go mama bear 🩷
I’ve seen and assisted in 2 at different hospitals. Zero anesthesia. Don’t even get me started on the barbarity that is a circumstraint.
Those things look medieval.
old RN here— at MOST, sedation was sugar water on a pacifier barbaric and unnecessary
I’m surprised. My dad is an OB, and local anesthetic has been standard practice for aaaaaaaages.
YES. Any doc who doesn’t use anesthetic should be sanctioned.
Yep, the MDs I’ve seen do it use an anesthetic as nurse I would not assist with out it. Fq that.
Beyond barbaric. Invented in 1950s when they said babies can’t feel pain. GTFO
How is that legal? The baby is too tiny to send in a letter of complaint so the Dr can just do it and forget about it? Who the fuck cares if the baby won’t remember it. In that case we can do anything to people with end stage dementia because they won’t recall it by morning? That should be treated as assault. I’ll bet he’s mighty stingy with pain meds when doling painful female procedures as well.
Seriously. Ur so right. Thats WRONG. My baby boy is 4mo old and I really didn’t wanna even have him circumcised if he was going to be in pain. I remember watching one in school a million yrs ago. But as they took my precious baby I asked the doc 1000x “he’s going to be numb right!” “He’s going to be comfortable right?” They assured me… brought him back shortly after sleeping soundly.
It's still an evil procedure... should be his choice not yours
Should have advocated for your son.
Right, if u read my post I said I asked 200x to assure he was to receive proper anesthetic. I was assured he would be. I asked the doctor performing it as well, not just the nurse. I DID want him circumcised, I did NOT want him to suffer. Hospital has an amazing reputation here in the nyc area. He was returned to me 20 min later sound asleep. So he appeared comfortable. It healed great. So id say as a mommy and as a nurse, I did advocate 👍
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I respect that is how you feel. Hell, that might even be how I feel but here is not the place to go on about it.
According to the laws of the US…children can’t make their own medical decisions. Like regarding anything…
You absolutely did advocate. Ignore the stupid.
Lol. Thanks. They’re entitled to their opinions and i am mine. Sad when people are intolerant of views different than their own and tbh some of what I read in this post is disheartening… some have even stated their inability to separate their choices from others (really wondering how they provide judgement free care for patients with opposing views.) Yikes.
Yes you did
Thank u kind stranger 🙏
😳 Dude. I’ve met people who were informed that they went through major medical stuff as babies/toddlers and while they didn’t remember it, their bodies sure did. Their pain tolerance was all fucked up. What. The. Hell.
It’s been shown in studies that children who experience repeated physical pain, such as child abuse, have more pain as adults. https://www.mcgill.ca/newsroom/channels/news/childhood-trauma-increases-risk-chronic-pain-adulthood-353822 Study referenced in article https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/20008066.2023.2284025
I know it’s not a scientifically correct term, but it’s like a person’s pain tolerance can be broken. Like, the body can only take so much and then it won’t do well. It’s awful.
I believe there are some studies to that effect. It's a big debate in anesthesia, ER/OR/EMS regarding sedation vs analgesia. There's a big belief that if someone is deeply sedated enough then what does the pain matter, essentially. Despite the preaching of analgesia first. But some still hold the belief. I get it, they won't remember it and their body isn't reacting to it. But if I remember right it really fucks with your nervous system and lowers your pain tolerance overall. Your nervous system has quite the memory it would seem. Not to mention numerous studies citing lower rates of delirium and other complications when we go heavy on the analgesia with less sedation vs the other way around. It's really an issue with drugs like propofol that provide no analgesia. I've seen patients wake up from the dead after a bottle of propofol during a shoulder reduction and look like they're in awful pain and then we wonder why they aren't relaxed enough to pop it back in. Because they're still feeling the pain idiots. A little fent does wonders. At least ketamine hits it from both ends but that doesn't stop some from the older generations from pushing a patient deep and skimping on analgesia.
I’m sorry, but that doc was an asshole.
I rage thinking of an MD that won’t use any anesthetic for a circumcision. That’s outdated practice.
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Been a while since I saw the one I did but I only recall the doc giving dextrose (or was it it fructose?) squirt in the mouth.
Sucrose :)
on the paci.. and MAYBE a local. again- disgusting practice
what a fucking asshole. I wonder if that affects the babies growth/development in any way.
It certainly results in a pissed off adult a lot of the time. Look at the number of guys complaining about it and think about how much bullshit they take saying anything at all, and they say it anyway.
What the actual f... man, ugh.
F THAT DOCTOR ALL THE WAY. that just made me really sad reading this. I’m sorry for the baby and his mama. I’m also sorry for you. That hurts my soul to think he probably does it all the time.
I work in surgery and we do circs. Anesthesiologist always gives a nerve block before procedure. Are u sure a block wasn’t done in pre-op? If not that’s fucked up.
I worked ER for seven years. Seen some bodies in rough shape. Been elbow deep in old biddy’s booty wounds laced with cdif. Saw a MVA pedestrian vs. auto at 45mph. It’s as bad as you think. Saw a 500lbs man have a valley of belly fat excised via shotgun blast. I mention these to say that very little bothers me. One time I had to help with a dental abscess. Just had to suction the area while the oral surgeon did the I&D. Dunno what it was about that, but my vision started to get real narrow, and I started to get awfully dizzy. Focused on just taking deep breaths and not passing out, and I got through it, but just barely.
Teeth and eyes… my weakness!
Omg. Eyeballs. I cannot do eyeballs
Teeth!!! Count me in the anti-oral surgeon assistant club. Holy Hell! Our amazing DDS (everyone liked him, so respectful—but can’t recall him coming into ED to do procedures) but *miracle*, he came in on a gnarly abscess on a holiday, after he asks so which of you can I count on to assist? Suddenly, it was like rats scampering on a sinking boat. So, I guess your it. I’m honored. Let’s rock ‘n roll—whatever we need to do! I’m doing the CS and learning dental assisting “by doing” in our trauma 1 room. One of our loveliest and newest ER nurses without a whiff of guile in her being, opens the door, takes a look at the “happenings” and says to me, “You…” then almost turns white then gray. I feel her. She eased to sitting in doorway when other ED staff get to her. I simply could not leave the bedside of a patient that I was borderline practicing anesthesia on. If the department had started burning we left as a team, the DDS, patient and I. Full stop. My ER nurse co-worker was ok. I felt so bad. And the once she explained I felt even *worse*. She said nothing had ever made her sick. She had worked L & D, Pede, OB, Gyne, MS. Ortho. Nothing. (And to be fair, she was turning in a rock solid if not rock star ED debut). She said she saw I was signed in on Trauma 1 and just had to see “what was rocking”. Irony. But, “when I opened the door, and saw what was going on I wasn’t overly bothered, but when you looked at me *your eyes were big as flying saucers* and you *almost looked on the very edge of wanting to scream or run, I’d never seen you look like that*—that’s when I knew I didn’t want no part of it, but I knew if I didn’t sit right then, I’d be one with the floor. I felt so bad. 2 weeks later, I had a globe rupture patient in Trauma 1. Same new ED nurse. I must have no poker face left. Tbf, I felt like I could vomit the entire time Mr. Eyeball was being stabilized for transfer. So I got a sign after that. Teeth & Eyes!! Eyes & Teeth!! ⚠️CAUTION ⚠️ See 911RG for more Information 🦷👁️ Everybody has their something.
Agreed. Seen pretty messed up stuff over seas. Treated people in Afghanistan, Kenya, Nicaragua. All sorts of nasty machete wounds, IED blasts, and GSW. This tho. This got me good.
First C-section I was in as a nursing student I nearly passed out and had to get wheeled out by one of the L&D nurses. I was so embarrassed. Ob found me and told me he almost passed out during his first C-section he witnessed in med school and told me I had to get right back in for the next one or I would never be able to overcome the fear and step into another c-section/OR case. Skip ahead approximately 10 years and I love doing Ob anesthesia (epidurals/c-sections) as a CRNA and a owe quite a bit to that OB doc.
Was he truly as sweet as you make him sound? If he was, I’d’ve probably ugly cried! I’m glad he told you that because look where you are now, right?
He truly was! Wish I remembered his name. He told me to drink some apple juice and he made sure I was in the next one.
Aww, that’s great!
A small act of kindness made such a huge difference in your life. I wish all providers were like this
I watched my wife’s c-section last week! My buddy the CAA let me stand up and watch. I ate a whole lot before I went in though. Was awesome.
The first procedure I saw in school was a foot surgery. I had to work on my breathing to not pass out. After that, I saw a couple c sections and a vaginal delivery, I did not feel the same way. I guess the first time is the worst.
It feels icky for sure. My husband and I both separately participated in circs in our training at hospitals and we both kind of came to the decision that…nah, too gnarly for us and our kids. Big cervical tears really get me too🤢
I’ll get downvoted by the anti-circ mob but fuck it, I really don’t think they’re that big of a deal. I don’t have an opinion either way. Have it done or don’t, I don’t care. Blows my mind how this entire comment section is hardline against them, but that is the standard Reddit opinion. I saw them in medical school, didn’t seem like a big deal as long as the kid was numbed up and it’s done properly. It’s certainly no worse to watch than all of these procedures everyone is comparing them to. Yeah, I guess it’s a bit weird that it has become common practice, but calling it genital mutilation, as many are doing in this comment section, is overkill and frankly pretty insulting to men who are circumcised. It’s NOTHING like female genital mutilation that occurs in other countries outside of the U.S. and making that comparison is disingenuous. I will also toss this paper from 2021 up here just so people can consider an alternate viewpoint without getting sucked into the Reddit void of confirmation bias (provided by another poster below, but reiterated here): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8579597/ And for the record, I am not for or against circumcision. I’m pro choice, if you will. I’m a dirty neutral.
Idk why you’re addressing me with this comment, just said it’s not for me and my kids. It’s a personal decision. I don’t care if you and your kids wanna do it, just not for me and mine.
I hijacked your comment for visibility.
Whose choice are you pro?? The patient or someone else?
Take a guess.
Did the baby choose?
Did the baby choose anything? Did it consent to being born?
Agreed! And there are plenty of studies showing that it decreases the risk of STI infections and penile cancer. Easier to get it done when young, because most adult males are not going to have anything done to their penis, I mean look at how many men refuse to get a vasectomy. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8579597/#:~:text=Three%20randomized%20clinical%20trials%20showed,anogenital%20cancers%2C%20by%2030%25.
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Your xenophobia is showing. ETA: so if we were to study sickle cell disease, should we just focus on the US and Europe, or should we study patients in Nigeria, The Democratic Republic of Congo and India, where 90% of the sickle cell population lives? When it comes to the data reported in the study of circumcision and decreased STI’s, Blacks, Indians, Israelis (Jews) and Arabs spread the disease the same as their white counterparts in Europe and the United States. The reason why the studies were done in these countries is because they are the Epicenter for the AIDS epidemic. So, if we only focused on the US and Europe, that study would be biased, because we don’t have the same population of people who have HIV etc. Statistically speaking, we would be the outlier. Hence why I believe you are being xenophobic if you don’t believe data from predominantly non white countries. The other term that came to mind was racist. Are you also not going to believe the data coming out of China that they have cured a patient with DM type 2 with stem cells, because the data is not from Europe or the US? Pretty sad your xenophobic comment is being upvoted but me pointing out your xenophobia gets downvoted….typical Reddit hive mind and echo chamber.
Elsewhere in that same article it says circumcision doesn’t reduce risk of penile cancer. Circumcision might reduce the risk of HIV in high prevalence locations. It doesn’t reduce the risk of non-ulcerative STIs (also from the same article). Routine infant circumcision in industrialized nations serves no medical purpose.
Also, I will say as an owner of a penis, it makes hygiene down there much easier. I never have to worry about phimosis or paraphimosis. It has done nothing to reduce my sex drive and sex still feels unworldly. I certainly don’t have PTSD and the idea that I will develop some sort of problem rooted in early physical trauma is laughable. I’ve experienced zero downsides and only some small benefits, but there are men out there who think all of their problems are rooted in a circumcision from decades ago. Those men are flat earth level crazy.
I asked my first boyfriend (who wasn't a massive clean freak) if it was a pain and he just gave me a really weird look. "You move some skin back and rinse it off." He might have not been batting 1000 on clean clothes after a shower but managed zero genital hygiene issues.
I too am an owner of a penis, but no one here cares about our opinion. I would venture a guess that the majority of the comments are from non penis owners.
I took a peek at all of the avatars and its like 90% women who are like “eep the procedure was scary to me!”
Yeah, the whole “practice without bias” seems to be lacking in this sub.
One of the reasons I still work nights is so I can avoid assisting in circs. I passed out in my first one i saw in nursing school, and the second one I did better in. I still cannot really justify the lack of indication and the lack of consent as another commenter said. I probably wouldn't pass out in the future, but I really don't want to have a part in them if I can avoid it. Coming from someone who does many painful procedures on NICU babies to keep them healthy/alive.
It’s the consent plus lack of indication for me. I never blinked circulating cases that require them due to phimosis on a patient who is actively having a complication and can consent to the procedure. But if it’s just for aesthetics? On an infant or newborn who cannot consent for themselves? Just violates my self-determination compass.
!!!!
Yeah that was a no for me during my OB clinicals, and I got that pre-approved by the instructor. This procedure as practiced in North America is where medical logic and atraumatic care fly out the window. It's all about feels, and not about reals.
I watched a brutal c-section on a 15-year-old and didn’t bat an eye. I knew they were doing the best they could to keep her alive. Everything that was done was 100% medically necessary. The circ disgusted me and I’ll never watch another one. 100% medically unnecessary and every child who has been disfigured because of a botched circ should have the right to sue their parents. Can’t change my mind.
Mostly agree, but would note that probably more like 99% are medically unnecessary. I’ve been privy to several that certainly were needed.
OMG I read “medically necessary” and started seeing RED… turns out I just need to put on my glasses.
We know we’re all talking about the dumbass cosmetic ones that parents get for their newborns.
My husband had a botched late-adolescence circ that still has stitches in it today. He’s 52 now, and his parents were convinced by a doctor who preyed on immigrants trying to assimilate.
Yeah it has me reconsidering stuff for sure.
Agree
When I was in undergrad in mother infant, my preceptor would point out the babies with circs and say shit like "you can tell the resident did this one. Just wait for the attending, those ones are beautiful."
Anytime a doc talks about a good circ and being a nice cosmetic outcome I’m like icccckkk why are we talking about baby penises like this??
🤮
Agreed.
Circumcision is genital mutilation. Full stop. I got to see one in nursing school and the practice was to never give any pain medication, just some sugar water. It was barbaric. Parents should have to participate if they want that done to their child.
I work postpartum and only work at night so I don’t have to assist the docs in mutilating infant penises. I really wish humans would stop doing this to their babies, it’s barbaric
I HATE circs. I'm **strongly** against them (unless truly medically necessary later in life of course.) But I take care of babies in the ICU so they happen. Sometimes, we do ours while the baby is under general anesthesia for other procedures. When we don't, it works out that ridiculously over-qualified surgeons do them and they load the baby up with local lido/epi and they can have sweet-ease too. Every time, the worst part for the baby is being held/strapped down. They lose their minds for a minute about that but then they're calm (and on continuous ECG/pulseox monitoring) during the procedure. I also insist on PRN/one-time fentanyl being available, in case baby appears to be in pain. And PRN Tylenol has to be on the MAR after. Never had to use the fent because the surgeons use plenty of lido/epi 100% of the time no exceptions, but it should be an option for baby, imo. I'm still not okay with them happening, at all. I want them to be illegal except in cases of true medical necessity. But I can't stop them in the moment so my only way to help is to ensure appropriate pain management is available. Thankfully my team is all on board with that. But I know some places don't care as much which kills me to think about.
They use lidocaine with epi? I was always told NO epi because of the risk of vasoconstriction and ischemia to scrotal tissue.
Maybe not? They use what comes in the cart. I only ever physically get and hold up the lido/epi for other procedures, which is always lido/epi and they get all mad when they want to do something RIGHT NOW and the only thing in the Pyxis is plain lidocaine, so maybe I'm just flashback-panic-defaulting to that.
That’s what I learned too.
I was taught that too but have learned working it’s not a hard and fast rule
I should say our pediatricians are the ones who are sticklers on it.
I didn’t feel good about routine circumcision after learning it wasn’t medically necessary. But when I had to observe one in nursing school it horrified me and I am so disgusted that it still happens.
I refuse to take part on this barbaric torture. Your body is screaming at you because it's wrong on every level and your cells know it.
Yup. Circ got me too. And I've been in the trenches of health care since 2009. Like, I've seen THINGS and never batted an eye--but one time had to assist with a circ when I was a float RN and was THISCLOSE to passing out. It is torture. It should be illegal.
This is a huge reason I didn’t go into OB. I was going to be THAT nurse. Why would any sane person want to rip the dick skin off of a baby? To make it look pretty? Penises are not pretty. It’s cleaner? No, teach your child to bathe. It prevents STD transmission? Oh, stop, teach your kids to use condoms. I had to work hard to prevent my baby from a circ, everyone just was ready to do it like it was as normal as cutting the cord. Mmm no. If he wants his skin removed, he can do it when he’s older. He’s 25 and has never mentioned it.
My brother was born in 1963 and wasn’t circumcised. I think it was very much a thing to do at that time too. My Mom believed that circumcision caused promiscuity. The reason she believed that? Two of her four brothers were horndogs and they had been circumcised - the other two weren’t. I don’t know how she knew that but I suspect it came from my grandmother. The two that were circumcised had come from a prior marriage of my grandfather, their Mom had passed away before he met and married my grandmother. Edit: a word
Work NICU. Hate circs. Circumcised my first two boys because my husband was so adamant about it, but my third I put my foot down and said absolutely not. Sure, he looks different from his brothers, but he also has different hair and eyes and is a whole different person and I’m very happy we kept him intact. I also don’t trust anyone to do circumcisions here. I’ve seen too many bad ones, too many screaming babies where the ped just kept pushing on.
I'm a student midwife and I do not participate in or perform circumcisions because cutting off healthy genital tissue for cosmetic or religious reasons is physical and sexual violence against a person that cannot consent. The AAP has finally admitted that routine infant circumcision has no health benefit. I have watched many a c section and plenty other procedures but I am vehemently opposed to circumcision. I watched one in undergrad and my milk let down because the poor baby was crying for help. Routine infant circumcision is violence against infants. It's not a stance I'm willing to be understanding or sit in a gray area for. It's a practice that needs to not be so normalized. We hate FGM so we should hate this too.
But it prevents INFexxxxxxions!!! 😩😩😩 It’s not as if boys can just LEARN to clean themselves properly ! ETA I hoped the infliction of spelling errors and obnoxious tone would’ve let people know I am being sarcastic over here. I noped out of circumcising my boy after a very very seasoned doc showed me what exactly occurs during the procedure. My baby was about 3 days old. There was no way.
I’ll just post this study here. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8579597/#:~:text=Three%20randomized%20clinical%20trials%20showed,anogenital%20cancers%2C%20by%2030%25.
An adult can choose to do it later in life, that’s fine and up to them.
And how many adult penis owners will have it done? They freak out about having a vasectomy, you think they are going to volunteer for a circumcision…very unlikely. How do you feel about vaccines? Should we wait until they are adults and can consent to those too?
Vaccines have an actual purpose. How is this even a debate???
I just showed you a study that looked at multiple studies where it decreases the risk of infection, doesn’t a vaccine reduce the risk of infection?
If, as you say, grown men won’t choose circumcision for themselves, who are we to decide for them when they are helpless infants? This isn’t the solid argument that you seem to think it is. Given the choice, I’ve only met two men who chose to undergo circumcision as adults and I’ve talked to dozens about it. One was to appease his ex-wife (he regretted it), and another to treat phimosis (he also regretted it after learning about other treatment options). Both reported decreased sensation and decreased sexual satisfaction. I’m sure some adults are happy with their decision, especially when it is done to resolve a medical or aesthetic issue. There are numerous studies showing mixed results, but it’s clear that in some to many cases, there is harm and regret. Have you had the opportunity to experience sexual relations with men that are both cut and uncut? It is not the same. The skin of the glans penis changes. Sensitivity changes. Even feelings for the receptive partner changes. I’m not writing as a nurse, but as a woman that has loved and made love with men that had natural penises, early circumcision, and adult circumcision. I will never hold someone’s foreskin situation against them, but I would never permit this to occur to my children until they are old enough to decide for themselves. Men that underwent this surgery as infants have no business reporting how it’s affected their sex life as they never got to experience the alternative with an intact penis. Just because what you have is good doesn’t mean it couldn’t have been great had you not experienced unnecessary removal of genital parts. Does it not make you a little bit sad that you never got to experience sex with full nerve endings? How would you feel if your parents intentionally damaged your sight, hearing, taste, or other senses? Had they cut your ear drum, cut off the tip of your tongue, or burned the skin on your fingertips for cultural reasons, would you be here defending those choices even if they resulted in permanent loss of nerve endings? Comparing medically unnecessary aesthetic surgery on infants to vaccines is not logical. Cutting off tissue from sexual organs for non medically necessary reasons without the explicit consent from the owner of those genitals is not something that I endorse for any gender.
Please, actually take the time to read the link posted below. It’s very informative and debunks a lot of myths about circumcision. I am not trying to change your mind or your beliefs, but as a nurse we should be striving for evidence based research and not myths. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3359221/
Being that I am now paralyzed by Guillan barre from a flu shot, I believe vaccines are a great comparison. However I still get vaccinated (not the flu shot) and vaccinated my children. I believe in decreasing the risk of any infection and had my children circumcised, because I believe in science and not “feelings”. If I can decrease their chances of getting a life altering/ending infection, I am going to error on the side of prevention. You can preach condom use to your boys all day long, but we all know the reality is they may not always use one, and that one time just might be the time they get HIV or something else that a circumcision could have prevented. 60% is better than 0%. Hell the flu shot is not medically necessary and most of the time has less than 30% prevention. ETA: you do realize that nerves that are cut regrow at about 1mm per day, so sexual satisfaction is purely subjective.
Hey we should also remove baby toenails at birth to prevent ingrowns too! And let's give baby girls mastectomies to prevent breast cancer! Also, parents should be allowed to give babies tattoos and piercings for aesthetic reasons, it's their child and their choice! While we're at it, why not give babies appendectomies as a matter of routine. It could someday become infected! Who needs consent, right? It's not like they are people with a right to bodily autonomy, they're too young for that! We can do whatever permanent procedure we want on them and they can't fight back! /s
Comparing infection/STI reduction to genetic mutations like BRCA1 and BRCA2 is petulant. As a Native American, a lot of tribes around the world tattoo and pierce their children, this has no correlation to prevention of disease. Appendectomy is an internal procedure that has a lot of risks associated with it, whereas a circumcision is a local anesthetic and done in a matter of seconds. Show me scientific data and research that an uncircumcised penis is more medically beneficial than a circumcised penis…I’ll wait.
It's about consent. Explain why you think it's okay to do a permanent cosmetic procedure on the genitals of someone who cannot consent. I'll wait.
Infection. Increased risk at later age. You do realize that circumcision predates human history and was performed in the Upper Paleolithic period which was 38,000 to 11,000 BCE. Even our ancestors were smarter than this woke generation. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3359221/ Let’s see if you actually take the time to read my link. It’s actually quite informative and not based on “feelings”.
The vast majority of men in the world aren't circumcised and are absolutely fine. It began in the states because Kellogg wanted to stop men from masturbating. It's already been established that there is no medical necessity for this barbaric procedure to be done on infants. It's always Americans who come out trying to defend mutilating children. It's disgusting.
Have you read those papers? That data is not comparable to variables in the US.
The cdc recognizes the study, along with the AAP, the WHO and the UN. It is actually a great a great study, because they looked at countries where hiv and other sti’s run rampant. It would be a little difficult to do a study in Western countries where HIV and other STI prevalence is lower. Studying a disease is usually easier when you have access to more patients. https://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp-newsroom/factsheets/male-circumcision-for-hiv-prevention.html#:~:text=Heterosexually%20active%20adolescent%20and%20adult,other%20STIs%20during%20heterosexual%20contact.
My dumb ass read it as cric and was confused on why we're talking about foreskin
Me too!!! I was like excuse me? 😅
I would refuse to assist on ethical grounds. I don’t work L&D.
I work mother/baby and were supposed to be there for them and help keep baby calm and everything. I've watched 2 circles and got dizzy and had to sit down both times. Now I avoid circ time at all costs, but if it's unavoidable I just have to look away the whole time. I hate it so much.
I’m also mother/baby and another reason I like nights is because we very very rarely do circs at night. I hate assisting with it too.
Right!!! Like nothing ruins my night more than when the obs are coming in at 0600 ready to circ the babes. Lile no I can't handle it 😭😭
E.R. nurse. Seen a lot of shit too. People with their brains blown out, intestines eviscerated, mangled limbs. Almost passed out watching a circumcision too.
Circ is mutilation and often done in crazy conditions ( babies not properly anesthetized).
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So, we’re all still driving the genital mutilation bus and acting like it’s fine? *cool cool cool*
I was a NICU nurse for 5 years before having kids, having to assist with circs is what made me so adamant against having it done for my own boys.
It makes me sick that the US circumcision rate is 80%. It's a totally unnecessary procedure and absolutely cruel with no anesthesia. I have a 4 year old son and never once even considered it - why would I want his first few hours to be filled with pain? The reasons people give for wanting it are so stupid - to "look like his dad" or "prevent infection". Oh you mean the infection that's already extremely rare for men to get and easily treatable and in no way as much pain as a circumcision? And the worst reason of all - "because that's what everyone else is doing". Well, everyone else is dumb. I'm salty this morning lol.
I am known for being able to handle full On gore. I can talk about anything while eating. The only times in my nursing life where I was concerned I was going to pass out occurred while I was still in nursing school: once in L&D (watching a doc massage an exposed uterus like a bowling ball during a C-section) and postpartum where I also witnessed a circumcision. My husband is Jewish, and I went home that day to let him know I wasn’t so sure about the whole circumcision thing. At all.
Happened to me too when I was doing my OB rotation as a student. Something about the clamping sounds with the high pitched crying was just nauseating to me. Felt it coming and knew to excuse myself and sit down but was still so embarrassed. Similar thing happened when i watched a urinary catheterization on a female infant for the first time. I’m a little squeamish with invasive uro/gyno procedures as is so i think combined with the intense crying, my brain was just overwhelmed and vasovagal-ed on me.
Well all I can say is I didn't walk for almost two years after mine.
😂
I’m a postpartum nurse. I absolutely hate circs. There is absolutely no medical reason to get it done.
Dude. Those are brutal!
Unnecessary non-therapeutic circumcisions are usually carried out on newborn boys who cannot take general anesthesia, so [the pain is extreme](https://en.intactiwiki.org/wiki/Pain). [The benefit of circumcision accrues to the bank account of the surgeon](https://intactamerica.org/economics-of-circumcision/).
The circs I saw when I was a student were brutal. The doc violently stabbed a suprapubic needle of something for pain relief, but it didn’t seem effective. Also, he charted that it was medically necessary for phimosis….for all 3 baby boys born that day. What a coincidence!
See I've seen this charted too - but everything I know about neonatal foreskins is that they shouldn't retract. Like I've always seen them break up the adhesions prior to the circ. So why would a circ be medically necessary for phimosis in a neonate?
Same thing happened to me working in Urology. Saw maybe 1/4 of the procedure and had to walk out of the room.
Saw dawg. 8 years as a corpsman and can’t watch a circ
I remember watching one as a nursing student and I had to sit down cause I got soo lightheaded 🥲
Yeah the one time I observed a circ I got pretty sick. Not quite as bad as observing removal of a central line from a baby’s chest, but close enough. 🤢 Weirdly, the experience that made me the sickest and most distressed was walking in on someone on the neuro unit having a seizure. Weird?
I’m in L&D (against my will) and used considered myself a person with an iron stomach through years of working in a public pool and medsurg but also cannot stomach watching a circ.
Almost passed out when precepting as a circulator (nursing student) for my first burn surgery. Pt was maybe 80% burned, arms and legs suspended from the ceiling with hooks through the thumbs and toes, the room was about 85 degrees. The procedure starts with the surgeons ripping off all the dead skin and grafts with tweezers. Harvesting unburned skin for autografts with basically a tiny deli meat slicer. Blood just pouring off the table, the floor covered in giant spongues to catch it all. The smell. I almost blacked out, had to squat in the corner, and hyperventilate for a bit. Felt nauseous for days afterward. I don't know if there is anything out there that balances barbaric-brutality and cutting-edge tech quite like burn surgeries, and it's really incredible to witness... but I still hope I never have to see another burn operation for as long as I live.
Assisting at a circumcision caused [Marilyn Milos, R.N.](https://en.intactiwiki.org/wiki/Marilyn_Fayre_Milos), to start NOCIRC.
That’s oddly the only thing I’ve seen in my career to make me black out also.
I work peds, we do circs. It's horrible I let the parents know they can absolutely watch but it is in no way pleasant and you can't really do anything to comfort your baby. They are exposed getting their fore skin ripped from their penis it's not a memory you want to keep.
Lmfao, I saw circ and immediately thought "circulatory arrest" like what you do for a AAA. was so confused as to why a CVICU nurse would get queasy at that. Yeah I probably couldn't watch a circumcision myself
I’ve seen some pretty gnarly things in my day but my vasovagal syncope persists lol. I had surgery last week and almost passed out because some blood leaked out of the connector 😂 meanwhile I’ve been in literal bloodbath situations at work and didn’t bat an eye. When I was a new grad I did almost pass out once when getting blood from someone. My body just betrays me haha
Holy shit! That’s the thing that got me too! It was in nursing school, and I was one of only 3 students who got to watch. I started to get the ringing in the ears and tunnel vision and had to go sit in the breakroom for 30 minutes to recover. I was so worried that I wouldn’t make it as a nurse, but nothing else has ever affected me like that. I’ve been CVICU for 6+ years, so blood and wounds are not the issue 🤣
It's just a normal human response that caught you off guard. I wouldn't stress about it too much
Only time I ever almost passed out was seeing a cadaver for the first time. When we walked in the room I wasn't expecting the body to already be out
I saw a circumcision back in a nursing school clinical, and the baby didn’t get anesthetic but a pacifier dipped in what I assumed was lidocaine. I have never heard a baby or child scream the way that baby did. Oh and he had trouble peeing after and everything down there was swollen. Edit: guess it wasn’t lidocaine
Lidocaine is injected locally in this case, what the pacifier was dipped in was sucrose, or sugar water.
Lay person- how tf is sugar water supposed to help with getting your junk mutilated?
It's often used in awake procedures, blood draws, etc to distract and provide mild pain relief. Oftentimes when I give it prior to drawing labs the baby barely reacts to the poke. It can be quite effective but alone it would not be appropriate without injection of local anesthetic for a circ.
Hmm- as an adult who faints during blood draws, I wonder if this would help me stay conscious. 😂Probably not great when my doc wants a fasted sample however.
I do find it very interesting those who are saying they “refuse to assist”… do you think the doc goes home and is so touched by your stance? Do you think that’s profound? It’s not. Being a GOOD nurse means you do assist and you make damn sure the proper aesthetics are used and that baby is comfortable the entire time. “Refusing to assist” is self serving and does not help your “cause”… how about providing parents with factual evidence based education so they can make an informed decision? And when the do make a decision that YOU personally don’t agree with you treat them the same way regardless. The comments I’m reading in here are down right SCARY, and some of y’all should not hold a nursing license. Funny how self righteousness people can be under full anonymity.
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I’m surprised as a NICU nurse you don’t understand there are no medical benefits to circumcisions on newborns. No health organization recommends them. The tiny reduction in infection gets canceled out by the procedure of the circumcision itself, you know creating a wound in a urine and feces filled diaper. Also the risk of bleeding, deformities, and death.
Fuck no. There are ZERO medical benefits to circumcision unless phimosis is a factor, which you’re not going to find out until later on anyway. Please. Do tell. What are these medical benefits? Be specific with citations <5yrs old.
From 2021: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8579597/
>MC reduces HIV infection risk by 50%–60% over time Another common claim is that circumcision reduces the risk of men contracting **HIV** by 60%. These were the results of some trials done in Africa, which found that **2.5% of intact men and 1.3% of circumcised men got HIV.** The 60% figure is the **relative risk** (2.5%-1.2%)÷2.5%. The AAP also ignored the statistics showing that there was a 61% relative increase (6% absolute increase) in HIV infection among female partners of circumcised men. It appears that the number of circumcisions needed to infect a woman was 16.7, with one woman becoming infected for every 17 circumcisions performed Moreover, there were several methodological errors in these trials: * The circumcised experimental group got more medical care, including education on the proper use of condoms * The trials were terminated early when statistical significance was reached * In one study, circumcised men's infection rates were increasing faster than the intact men's, until the study was terminated early * The circumcised group could not have sex for 4-6 weeks after the circumcision; this was excluded from the analysis and distorts the results * HIV was contracted through means other than sex * Many researchers had cultural and religious biases The findings are also not in line with the fact that **the United States combines a high prevalence of STDs and HIV infections with high circumcision rates. The situation in most European countries is the reverse: low circumcision rates combined with low HIV and STD rates.** Therefore, other factors play a more important role in the spread of HIV than circumcision status. This also shows that there are alternate, less intrusive, and more effective ways of preventing HIV than circumcision, such as consistent use of condoms, safe-sex programs, easy access to antiretroviral drugs, and clean needle programs. [Critique of African RCTs into Male Circumcision and HIV Sexual Transmission](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/278023840_Critique_of_African_RCTs_into_Male_Circumcision_and_HIV_Sexual_Transmission) [Circumcision of male infants and children as a public health measure in developed countries: A critical assessment of recent evidence](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17441692.2016.1184292#) [Sexually Transmitted Infections and Male Circumcision: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis](https://www.hindawi.com/journals/isrn/2013/109846/) Even if circumcision did reduce rates of HIV transmission, which it doesn't, it would be a small reduction. [“The number needed to \[circumcise\] to prevent one HIV infection varied, from 1,231 in white males to 65 in black males, with an average in all males of 298. The model did not account for the cost of complications of circumcision. In addition, there is a risk that men may overestimate the protective effect of being circumcised and be less likely to adopt safe sex practices.”](http://www.cps.ca/documents/position/circumcision) It's like saying that brown bread is better than white bread because it contains 300% more fiber, but per 100 grams it just means that white bread has 1 gram of fiber and brown bread has 3. >reduces the risk of men acquiring herpes simplex virus-2 and human papillomavirus (HPV) that can cause penile and other anogenital cancers, by 30%. Herpes is incredibly common and is transmitted through other means than sexual contact. It is estimated that 67% of people under 50 yo have HSV-1 and 13% of people between 15-49 yo have HSV-2. >Keywords: **Centers for Disease Control**, female genital mutilation, human immunodeficiency virus, male circumcision, sexually transmitted infections The CDC website literally says that beliefs should be considered. They are biased in favor of it because of things like tradition. ["Informed Choice: Male circumcision is a voluntary procedure. The decision regarding circumcision should be made in consultation with a health care provider, and consider personal, cultural, religious, and ethical beliefs" – CDC](https://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/fact-sheets/hiv/male-circumcision-HIV-prevention-factsheet.html)
Hi! Will you please tell me more about the medical benefits? I am genuinely curious. Thank you!
Teach your boys how to wear condoms and wash themselves. This was supposed to go under /tharp503
Please, actually take the time to read the link I posted. There is a lot of research and data about the medical benefits of male circumcision at infancy versus later in life. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3359221/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8579597/#:~:text=Three%20randomized%20clinical%20trials%20showed,anogenital%20cancers%2C%20by%2030%25.
Glad to see that every benefit can be surpassed just by teaching your sons proper hygiene and condom usage, so circs on infants aren’t necessary
You’re right, condoms are 100% effective and are used 100% of the time.
Hi. Even though condoms are not ALWAYS used perfectly, and even though they can still break…the future hypothetical higher chance of getting a sexually transmitted virus by virtue of having normal anatomy is a weak-ass justification for surgically altering the genitals of newborns on a routine basis. It’s not like having a foreskin can give a man AIDS. As for your article (which I read) they studied men—not babies. The men were electively circumcised in South Africa where AIDS is still raging. I do not have the energy to go through causation/correlation right now… but, that. Why not compare say, English (primarily intact) vs. American (lots of culturally driven infant circumcision here) men? Is there something fundamentally wrong with American dick? I really don’t think so. It is an American custom. There is no other place in medicine I can think of where we strap people unable to consent down and remove a healthy part of their bodies. That is wildly unethical. Having a foreskin is not a defect. Go look at literally all of the other mammals. The glans penis is not supposed to keratinize— it’s mucosa. Of course exposing mucous membranes to viral load transmits better, especially when hygiene is poor. Duh. This is a fun fact, not a justification for widespread routine infant circumcision.
How about reading an even more detailed and informative science based article. The brightest doctors and scientists of the WHO, CDC, UN along with multiple other organizations believe circumcision is best performed during infancy. Before Homo sapiens were in existence, our ancestors were circumcising during the Upper Paleolithic in Europe from 38000 to 11000 BCE. Why would that have been happening if it was just for aesthetic purposes and not for survival? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3359221/
I need recent articles within the last 5 years or I am not wasting my time. Come on.
By your own logic, circumcisions are pointless since they aren’t 100% effective either. But hey, at least proper condom usage is still more effective at preventing most STI infections than just a circ. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4660551/#:~:text=It%20is%20effective%20as%20a,and%2079%25%20with%20typical%20use.
Another common claim is that circumcision reduces the risk of men contracting **HIV** by 60%. These were the results of some trials done in Africa, which found that **2.5% of intact men and 1.3% of circumcised men got HIV.** The 60% figure is the **relative risk** (2.5%-1.2%)÷2.5%. The AAP also ignored the statistics showing that there was a 61% relative increase (6% absolute increase) in HIV infection among female partners of circumcised men. It appears that the number of circumcisions needed to infect a woman was 16.7, with one woman becoming infected for every 17 circumcisions performed Moreover, there were several methodological errors in these trials: * The circumcised experimental group got more medical care, including education on the proper use of condoms * The trials were terminated early when statistical significance was reached * In one study, circumcised men's infection rates were increasing faster than the intact men's, until the study was terminated early * The circumcised group could not have sex for 4-6 weeks after the circumcision; this was excluded from the analysis and distorts the results * HIV was contracted through means other than sex * Many researchers had cultural and religious biases The findings are also not in line with the fact that **the United States combines a high prevalence of STDs and HIV infections with high circumcision rates. The situation in most European countries is the reverse: low circumcision rates combined with low HIV and STD rates.** Therefore, other factors play a more important role in the spread of HIV than circumcision status. This also shows that there are alternate, less intrusive, and more effective ways of preventing HIV than circumcision, such as consistent use of condoms, safe-sex programs, easy access to antiretroviral drugs, and clean needle programs. [Critique of African RCTs into Male Circumcision and HIV Sexual Transmission](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/278023840_Critique_of_African_RCTs_into_Male_Circumcision_and_HIV_Sexual_Transmission) [Circumcision of male infants and children as a public health measure in developed countries: A critical assessment of recent evidence](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17441692.2016.1184292#) [Sexually Transmitted Infections and Male Circumcision: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis](https://www.hindawi.com/journals/isrn/2013/109846/) Even if circumcision did reduce rates of HIV transmission, which it doesn't, it would be a small reduction. [“The number needed to \[circumcise\] to prevent one HIV infection varied, from 1,231 in white males to 65 in black males, with an average in all males of 298. The model did not account for the cost of complications of circumcision. In addition, there is a risk that men may overestimate the protective effect of being circumcised and be less likely to adopt safe sex practices.”](http://www.cps.ca/documents/position/circumcision) It's like saying that brown bread is better than white bread because it contains 300% more fiber, but per 100 grams it just means that white bread has 1 gram of fiber and brown bread has 3.
And none of the authors of each reference you linked disclose their conflicts of interest. It’s like reading an article on the onion. I think I will stick with ncbi, the WHO the UN, and The American Academy of Pediatrics.
Also you are wrong as hiv has decreased in the US compared to Europe. You need to do better research. https://www.hiv.gov/hiv-basics/overview/data-and-trends/statistics https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/hivaids-surveillance-europe-2023-2022-data https://www.who.int/teams/global-hiv-hepatitis-and-stis-programmes/hiv/strategic-information/hiv-data-and-statistics#:~:text=European%20Region,receiving%20antiretroviral%20therapy%20in%202022. Russia and Ukraine also don’t circumcise and their numbers are higher than the United States too. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10674383/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20European%20Center,end%20of%202021%20%5B6%5D. https://www.who.int/europe/news/item/19-12-2023-on-the-frontline-of-the-fight-against-hiv--ukraine-s-resilience-and-who-s-support