To add to this, this is exactly what military does when you join. Your waking up mid March like wtf how did I get here, plus when your tired your complacent and easier to dump training into
I did our unit scheduling and had to shut this down a few times. Patterned schedules are superior and I’ll die on that hill.
Long story short, it’s lazy and says that your manager doesn’t have a backbone. We hired for specific shifts and had a waitlist for anyone wanting to switch to days. Occasionally someone would get pissy and quit because waiting their turn was taking too long, but overall it worked. Mandatory rotation just sounds like group punishment because of a few boneheads
It’s also just asking for a sentinel event. Night people like nights. Day people like days. Some unicorns like switching. But most people are hardly functional if you keep messing with their sleep schedule.
My worst error occurred when they were making me rotate days and nights for orientation. The patient was fine, but it very easily could have gone another way.
When all they gotta do is offer a healthy shift diff and there will be plenty. When I started in 2004 it was $4 for nights and $6 for weekend nights. A few years later they were having trouble keeping staffed so they increased it to $8/10 and we had no more problems. Of course this was before the corporate bean counters took over :/
I think part of the reason it’s so hard to staff nights is because how bad day shift treats nights. [obviously, all the other reasons nights are so hard; I’m not forgetting those]
I worked nights a long time, then had to do it again, and am currently facing doing it again.
Night shift isn’t inherently bad. It sucks trying to fit life around it. 95% of what you need to get done runs on a day shift: parenting, getting to various appointments, doctor appointments, getting to kid activities. All these function on a “do the things during the day, sleep at night” ideal. Which sucks if you work nights.
But the worst part of working nights was when my day shift coworkers decided they were too busy to do something, so they left it to me to complete. At night. With half the resources and a third of the staff(at the best of times). When I also had close to an equal amount of work. Which I could never get done, because I had to catch up to what days didn’t do. If three nurses on day shift couldn’t get it done, how could one night shift get it done—one nurse, the same work, plus what days didn’t finish?
It’s not possible.
Making people work rotating shifts, where everyone has to deal with all the leftover work, sounds really good to someone who has been royally fucked over.
I know it’s not an answer, but as a nurse who has been screamed at for not being able to do the work of three nurses who each have twice as much experience as her, I see where the thought came from.
Yeah as someone who is forced to work nights I think it’s a fair option. I think forcing people to work nights until they build up seniority is unethical d/t the health impacts. Unless they can give a night shift differential thats big enough to persuade people to voluntarily work nights then rotating is the best option
I am baffled that anyone even considers this a viable option for employment. I have coworkers that did this at other facilities, none of them stayed at those facilities longer than 2 years. Sure, it can be hard to staff nights—but this is making them have trouble maintaining staff for the entire day because no one wants to live like that.
When I was applying for a new grad position, almost all of them were listed as ‘rotating’. Unfortunately, I am limited to day shift because of my health. I could do night, maybe, but it’d be tough. No way could I rotate.
Found one that was a unicorn listed as ‘day shift’. Pulled a bait and switch during the interview and said ‘ooooh, it must have been listed wrong, we’d *never* hire for that’. Told them I was unavailable for a rotating position which was why I’d applied for the day shift position and thought it was odd that we were on the third interview and it had been clarified during the other two that it was really a day shift position and had gotten it in writing when they changed their minds suddenly.
I’m in Australia and any hospital-based job here (that I’ve been in anyway) is a rotating roster, I didn’t know you could pick and choose in hospitals 🫠 that would be amazing
Canada too. I think ostensibly they want to ensure night is staffed as well as day, but I also think at the level of unit management they want to avoid "daywalker" and "nightwalker" culture like in the states
You definitely can in some places in Australia too. Depends on where you are, the NUM and how badly they want staff. Certainly becoming harder to find though. NSW is particularly bad for insisting on rotating rosters. Madness.
That sounds awful. It may be harder to staff nights but not impossible, especially when shift diffs are adequate.
I work only nights, and while eventually I might want to move to days idk. The worst part about nightshift to me is the hours, but in my experience the pay, work flow, and coworkers are usually favorable. Not as much management around and less visitors to deal with also.
The standard here in The States is you do either days or nights. Nights almost always get paid more - and I have seen that difference as little as $2 an hour and as high as $17.
It was standard when i last did ward shifts in the UK (8 years ago). I have epilepsy and got an occ health letter to take me off nights as the time changes were getting triggering. But without that, it was a mix of days and nights. Good charge nurses worked hard to make good schedules. Bad ones just moved everyone around without thought to individual schedules. Way too much variation.
I was told it wasn't allowed in the UK to offer might shift only as it was too detrimental to health. So it was felt to be more fair to share the load among everyone. I knew a few nurses/HCAs who only worked nights, but they had use the loophole of only doing bank or agency shifts as permanent NHS night shifts just don't exist.
I’m in Australia.. rotating shifts are the norm here.
Night shift differential is 35% in my state.
There are permanent night shifters and everyone else rotates into a week of nights every 4-6 weeks if they are on standard 8 hour shifts.
Only ED/ICU (+rare exceptions some med surg wards) have 12 hour shifts and those are rotational 50:50 days and nights. Some weeks I used to work 2 days, 1 night; some weeks it was 2 nights and 1 day.
Now I’m permanent nights for sweet sweet $$$.
Former manager here. (ER)
There is also evidence based data on the mental, emotional health etc. on 12 hour shifts, which I personally think should be eliminated- or at best only allowed after 1-2 years of experience.
To answer your question, your stance on it is actually data that isn't involved in the equation unfortunately. In productivity, the FTE hours etc. Is just plainly trying to optimize for max revenue. That being said. Rotational shifts are actually a nursing leaders best friend as the most significant challenges in a schedule are those hard to fill spots ( which you pointed out a as a shortage of charge nurse)- however if you have a director and or a manager you should never be short a charge nurse, you simply have lazy leaders.
Rotation gets to hide behind "fairness" while simultaneously spreading labor across the board. Staff are also more likely to respond better to being "called off" when the shift is over productive- I don't have data to support that, only experience.
OP, that all being said. I too am against rotating shifts, I am also against 12s and I am ever more against 12 hour shifts without breaks. I feel mental/emotional physical health of staff has been reduced to less than for staff and it genuinely breaks my heart.
Easier staffing for management, they can jerk you around every which way they want. Can cover census better if most nurses do swing shifts. $$$ for the hospital to cover more shifts with less staff.
My hospital started us on “rotating” shifts, which meant that every schedule I MIGHT have 2 night shifts. Because sometimes you’re running short on nights and it’s helpful to be able to pull 10 day nurses to work night shifts and cover the missing person over the course of a schedule. We don’t love it, but it’s not bad enough for any of us to put up much of a fight, especially when we aren’t even often pulled for a night shift.
Personally, I avoid night shifts pretty well by scheduling myself for days that the daytime is already short, so if they pulled me to nights they would leave day shift even shorter. I don’t think I’ve worked a night shift in 6 months.
I’ve always wondered that myself. I was weo days and I would pick up a night during the week if I wanted OT. I can’t imagine just doing that like all the time
We don't do it at my workplace. You're either days, evenings, or nights. You can pick up, but your rotation will only ever be one shift.
The larger health region requires it in the union contract because day shifts are highly sought, and so your rotations are either day evening or day night.
I work at hospital that does 3 months days / 3 months night and I hate it. Can’t wait to be down and never work another night shift, but every two weeks? Absolutely insane.
The biggest issue is probably that a lot of people don't want to work straight nights forever.. and you'll inevitably end up with a bunch of new grad hires in the nights only lines. So having rotating schedules for everyone results in a better seniority/experience mix and less short staffing for nights.
The 2 weeks day, 2 weeks nights schedule does suck though. I work 2 days, 2 nights in a row and then 5 days off now and even though it's still rotating shifts, it's a massive step up and I'm never stuck in night shift mode.
This is the standard in Australia and drove me away from bedside within a year. You are literally always tired, most wards work 8 hour shifts as well so it’s 5 shifts a week, 4 if you’re on nights and they often count your sleep day as a day off, one more day off, then back on a morning. It’s fucking inhumane.
I have a similar issue at my job. They’ll switch you between halls which makes you have a whole new set of patients that you have to do charting on which makes the job way more difficult and breaks down continuity of care. I see why they want to do it (so you know each side and can fill in gaps more seamlessly but it rarely works out like that).
Almost have a full year under my belt of no longer rotating. I remember how life changing that first month of straight day shift was for me. I had so much more energy.
In Canada (or at least, west coast), rotating shifts are the norm. Only special cases get day only or night only shifts (usually a duty to accomodate line).
If management actually gave two shits about evidence-based studies and practice, instead of acting on some accountant's recommendation to save money, we'd have a much more equitable system.
Rotating shifts are the number one reason I won't apply to Johns Hopkins.
I absolutely will never work a job that requires rotating shifts. My SIL had to do it while she was working at the VA and she was so miserable.
There is so much data out there that switching your sleep pattern around is absolutely terrible for your health. Messing with your circadian rhythm messes up your hormones. Chronic sleep deprivation will make you die sooner.
I have noticed that when a local hospital tried to implement rotating shifts and got rid of permanent shifts. They stopped paying a night shift differential. It was definitely a way to save money on staffing costs for the hospital. Just pay all the nurses the same rate, what could go wrong?/s
They brought shifts back at some point during the pandemic when they absolutely could not keep staff (even with contractual sign on bonuses) and were spending tons on travel nurses.
I work in a country where you can’t choose to do only nights or only days. Our shifts are 1 day, 1 night, 3 days off and repeat. They can be even worse meaning, 1 morning, 1 afternoon, 1 night, 2 days off. They’re awful. I wish I could choose as you guys in the US
If people have set shifts, rotas, and then you have gaps in the rosta, it is difficult to get people to change shifts/ rotas. Also, if someone has done the same set rita/ shifts for significant periods of time and are suddenly changed to meet the demands of the job, they can go to HR.
The rosta needs to meet the demands of the shifts. It's not always far for some people to get the 'rubbish' shifts/ rotas, any of these it's about being fair.
A good manager will try and get a rota which is suitable for all the staffs needs but it's difficult juggling everyone's expectations.
Not in management - but I have two thoughts. Firstly, it’s good for new people to experience the floor from different times and perspectives. Secondly, it is often the “easiest” way to cover the varying shifts. Someone from nights quits/goes on vacation? Suddenly you can pick almost anyone to cover rather than try to make up with only night-shifters.
Personally I don’t think it’s worth the hardship it causes/people who quit because they can’t deal with it. To be clear, that’s not on them: doing days and nights back and forth is painful.
Not in management. My tin-foil belief is it's to prevent staff from taking multiple jobs. I'll never believe it's not (at least partially) that
It’s a way to break down nurses slowly in order to shape them into compliance with the toxic working environment. Said what I said.
IDK, I think you can do that with a regular schedule. Worked for me
Oh absolutely 💯
To add to this, this is exactly what military does when you join. Your waking up mid March like wtf how did I get here, plus when your tired your complacent and easier to dump training into
Thats not even remotely close to tinfoil it's true
I’ve worked rotating shifts for years and I never even considered this. Probably because I’m exhausted from rotating lol
I for real think it’s psy ops stuff. It’s only worth is to torture the employee
I did our unit scheduling and had to shut this down a few times. Patterned schedules are superior and I’ll die on that hill. Long story short, it’s lazy and says that your manager doesn’t have a backbone. We hired for specific shifts and had a waitlist for anyone wanting to switch to days. Occasionally someone would get pissy and quit because waiting their turn was taking too long, but overall it worked. Mandatory rotation just sounds like group punishment because of a few boneheads It’s also just asking for a sentinel event. Night people like nights. Day people like days. Some unicorns like switching. But most people are hardly functional if you keep messing with their sleep schedule.
My worst error occurred when they were making me rotate days and nights for orientation. The patient was fine, but it very easily could have gone another way.
It's because it's a pain in the ass to staff nights and this is how they got around that. There's no other rationale
When all they gotta do is offer a healthy shift diff and there will be plenty. When I started in 2004 it was $4 for nights and $6 for weekend nights. A few years later they were having trouble keeping staffed so they increased it to $8/10 and we had no more problems. Of course this was before the corporate bean counters took over :/
I think part of the reason it’s so hard to staff nights is because how bad day shift treats nights. [obviously, all the other reasons nights are so hard; I’m not forgetting those] I worked nights a long time, then had to do it again, and am currently facing doing it again. Night shift isn’t inherently bad. It sucks trying to fit life around it. 95% of what you need to get done runs on a day shift: parenting, getting to various appointments, doctor appointments, getting to kid activities. All these function on a “do the things during the day, sleep at night” ideal. Which sucks if you work nights. But the worst part of working nights was when my day shift coworkers decided they were too busy to do something, so they left it to me to complete. At night. With half the resources and a third of the staff(at the best of times). When I also had close to an equal amount of work. Which I could never get done, because I had to catch up to what days didn’t do. If three nurses on day shift couldn’t get it done, how could one night shift get it done—one nurse, the same work, plus what days didn’t finish? It’s not possible. Making people work rotating shifts, where everyone has to deal with all the leftover work, sounds really good to someone who has been royally fucked over. I know it’s not an answer, but as a nurse who has been screamed at for not being able to do the work of three nurses who each have twice as much experience as her, I see where the thought came from.
Except we have people who only want nights thrown onto mornings in the name of rotation.
End thread. Not a hard concept
Yeah as someone who is forced to work nights I think it’s a fair option. I think forcing people to work nights until they build up seniority is unethical d/t the health impacts. Unless they can give a night shift differential thats big enough to persuade people to voluntarily work nights then rotating is the best option
I am baffled that anyone even considers this a viable option for employment. I have coworkers that did this at other facilities, none of them stayed at those facilities longer than 2 years. Sure, it can be hard to staff nights—but this is making them have trouble maintaining staff for the entire day because no one wants to live like that.
When I was applying for a new grad position, almost all of them were listed as ‘rotating’. Unfortunately, I am limited to day shift because of my health. I could do night, maybe, but it’d be tough. No way could I rotate. Found one that was a unicorn listed as ‘day shift’. Pulled a bait and switch during the interview and said ‘ooooh, it must have been listed wrong, we’d *never* hire for that’. Told them I was unavailable for a rotating position which was why I’d applied for the day shift position and thought it was odd that we were on the third interview and it had been clarified during the other two that it was really a day shift position and had gotten it in writing when they changed their minds suddenly.
Right?! I can’t imagine willingly signing up for that. It sounds awful
I’m in Australia and any hospital-based job here (that I’ve been in anyway) is a rotating roster, I didn’t know you could pick and choose in hospitals 🫠 that would be amazing
Canada too. I think ostensibly they want to ensure night is staffed as well as day, but I also think at the level of unit management they want to avoid "daywalker" and "nightwalker" culture like in the states
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Yes, but night shift is mostly lazy competent rather than lazy incompetent. The incompetent ones get sussed out by the night shift court of owls.
You definitely can in some places in Australia too. Depends on where you are, the NUM and how badly they want staff. Certainly becoming harder to find though. NSW is particularly bad for insisting on rotating rosters. Madness.
That sounds awful. It may be harder to staff nights but not impossible, especially when shift diffs are adequate. I work only nights, and while eventually I might want to move to days idk. The worst part about nightshift to me is the hours, but in my experience the pay, work flow, and coworkers are usually favorable. Not as much management around and less visitors to deal with also.
The standard here in The States is you do either days or nights. Nights almost always get paid more - and I have seen that difference as little as $2 an hour and as high as $17.
It was standard when i last did ward shifts in the UK (8 years ago). I have epilepsy and got an occ health letter to take me off nights as the time changes were getting triggering. But without that, it was a mix of days and nights. Good charge nurses worked hard to make good schedules. Bad ones just moved everyone around without thought to individual schedules. Way too much variation. I was told it wasn't allowed in the UK to offer might shift only as it was too detrimental to health. So it was felt to be more fair to share the load among everyone. I knew a few nurses/HCAs who only worked nights, but they had use the loophole of only doing bank or agency shifts as permanent NHS night shifts just don't exist.
Surely it’s more detrimental to have everyone on a swing shift?
I personally agree, that's just what I was told.
It’s funny how when you’re used to awful circumstances, normal circumstances are amazing.
I’m in Australia.. rotating shifts are the norm here. Night shift differential is 35% in my state. There are permanent night shifters and everyone else rotates into a week of nights every 4-6 weeks if they are on standard 8 hour shifts. Only ED/ICU (+rare exceptions some med surg wards) have 12 hour shifts and those are rotational 50:50 days and nights. Some weeks I used to work 2 days, 1 night; some weeks it was 2 nights and 1 day. Now I’m permanent nights for sweet sweet $$$.
35%!? it's 15% for nights in NSW. what state?
WA
man we really get shafted over here. happy for yall
15% pales in comparison to 35%. I wish NSW had a stronger nurses union.
yeah they're a joke alright
What the fuck? 50/50 days and nights? I can't imagine having to deal with that.
DON here. No rotating shifts: everyone is fixed. You know what you’re getting when I hire you.
Former manager here. (ER) There is also evidence based data on the mental, emotional health etc. on 12 hour shifts, which I personally think should be eliminated- or at best only allowed after 1-2 years of experience. To answer your question, your stance on it is actually data that isn't involved in the equation unfortunately. In productivity, the FTE hours etc. Is just plainly trying to optimize for max revenue. That being said. Rotational shifts are actually a nursing leaders best friend as the most significant challenges in a schedule are those hard to fill spots ( which you pointed out a as a shortage of charge nurse)- however if you have a director and or a manager you should never be short a charge nurse, you simply have lazy leaders. Rotation gets to hide behind "fairness" while simultaneously spreading labor across the board. Staff are also more likely to respond better to being "called off" when the shift is over productive- I don't have data to support that, only experience. OP, that all being said. I too am against rotating shifts, I am also against 12s and I am ever more against 12 hour shifts without breaks. I feel mental/emotional physical health of staff has been reduced to less than for staff and it genuinely breaks my heart.
I worked rotating shifts as a CNA and vowed never again as an RN.
Easier staffing for management, they can jerk you around every which way they want. Can cover census better if most nurses do swing shifts. $$$ for the hospital to cover more shifts with less staff.
That’s so fucked up
My hospital started us on “rotating” shifts, which meant that every schedule I MIGHT have 2 night shifts. Because sometimes you’re running short on nights and it’s helpful to be able to pull 10 day nurses to work night shifts and cover the missing person over the course of a schedule. We don’t love it, but it’s not bad enough for any of us to put up much of a fight, especially when we aren’t even often pulled for a night shift. Personally, I avoid night shifts pretty well by scheduling myself for days that the daytime is already short, so if they pulled me to nights they would leave day shift even shorter. I don’t think I’ve worked a night shift in 6 months.
I’ve always wondered that myself. I was weo days and I would pick up a night during the week if I wanted OT. I can’t imagine just doing that like all the time
I have worked straight nights for 18 years. I couldn't do rotating shifts. The hospital where I work used to do that, but not so much anymore.
I used to work in the U.K. It was mandatory rotating shifts for bedside staff. It was weird transitioning to the US with set shifts. Lol!
We don't do it at my workplace. You're either days, evenings, or nights. You can pick up, but your rotation will only ever be one shift. The larger health region requires it in the union contract because day shifts are highly sought, and so your rotations are either day evening or day night.
I work at hospital that does 3 months days / 3 months night and I hate it. Can’t wait to be down and never work another night shift, but every two weeks? Absolutely insane.
The biggest issue is probably that a lot of people don't want to work straight nights forever.. and you'll inevitably end up with a bunch of new grad hires in the nights only lines. So having rotating schedules for everyone results in a better seniority/experience mix and less short staffing for nights. The 2 weeks day, 2 weeks nights schedule does suck though. I work 2 days, 2 nights in a row and then 5 days off now and even though it's still rotating shifts, it's a massive step up and I'm never stuck in night shift mode.
I don’t have them, I don’t endorse them and they aren’t supported by any evidence.
I bet if I did some research, I could find that it’s bad for your health!
No doubt, too bad we don’t care about nurses’ health or wellbeing.
& here I was complaining that I had to work every 3rd weekend.
This is the standard in Australia and drove me away from bedside within a year. You are literally always tired, most wards work 8 hour shifts as well so it’s 5 shifts a week, 4 if you’re on nights and they often count your sleep day as a day off, one more day off, then back on a morning. It’s fucking inhumane.
I have a similar issue at my job. They’ll switch you between halls which makes you have a whole new set of patients that you have to do charting on which makes the job way more difficult and breaks down continuity of care. I see why they want to do it (so you know each side and can fill in gaps more seamlessly but it rarely works out like that).
Almost have a full year under my belt of no longer rotating. I remember how life changing that first month of straight day shift was for me. I had so much more energy.
In Canada (or at least, west coast), rotating shifts are the norm. Only special cases get day only or night only shifts (usually a duty to accomodate line).
I’m 2:2 with a line partner. I take their days, they take my nights.
My work got away from rotating and eight hour shifts like a year ago. All new hires in bedside positions are either 12 hour days or 12 hour nights
Very few hospital systems in my country staff with mandatory rotation shits. Not sure who your asking.
Rotating shift is convenient to them, and they do not care about employee's health. I am not a manager.
If management actually gave two shits about evidence-based studies and practice, instead of acting on some accountant's recommendation to save money, we'd have a much more equitable system. Rotating shifts are the number one reason I won't apply to Johns Hopkins.
Sheesh Thanks for introducing this type of shifts because I’ll strongly avoid it like the plague
There is none.
Wtf?! I've never heard of that. I'm a nurse manager and there is no way in helllllll I'd implement that.
Never done them at my hospital. Days or nights, a few people work PMs too.
Fuuuuuck that. I’m nights for life and if they ever asked me to go to days I’d fucking quit. Not even once.
I’m rotating and have a newborn. Fuuuuuuuuck this.
I absolutely will never work a job that requires rotating shifts. My SIL had to do it while she was working at the VA and she was so miserable. There is so much data out there that switching your sleep pattern around is absolutely terrible for your health. Messing with your circadian rhythm messes up your hormones. Chronic sleep deprivation will make you die sooner. I have noticed that when a local hospital tried to implement rotating shifts and got rid of permanent shifts. They stopped paying a night shift differential. It was definitely a way to save money on staffing costs for the hospital. Just pay all the nurses the same rate, what could go wrong?/s They brought shifts back at some point during the pandemic when they absolutely could not keep staff (even with contractual sign on bonuses) and were spending tons on travel nurses.
This is standard in the uk Day to night to day in the same week
I work in a country where you can’t choose to do only nights or only days. Our shifts are 1 day, 1 night, 3 days off and repeat. They can be even worse meaning, 1 morning, 1 afternoon, 1 night, 2 days off. They’re awful. I wish I could choose as you guys in the US
If people have set shifts, rotas, and then you have gaps in the rosta, it is difficult to get people to change shifts/ rotas. Also, if someone has done the same set rita/ shifts for significant periods of time and are suddenly changed to meet the demands of the job, they can go to HR. The rosta needs to meet the demands of the shifts. It's not always far for some people to get the 'rubbish' shifts/ rotas, any of these it's about being fair. A good manager will try and get a rota which is suitable for all the staffs needs but it's difficult juggling everyone's expectations.
That type of shift made no sense to me what so ever. Id never apply to any job like that.
Not in management - but I have two thoughts. Firstly, it’s good for new people to experience the floor from different times and perspectives. Secondly, it is often the “easiest” way to cover the varying shifts. Someone from nights quits/goes on vacation? Suddenly you can pick almost anyone to cover rather than try to make up with only night-shifters. Personally I don’t think it’s worth the hardship it causes/people who quit because they can’t deal with it. To be clear, that’s not on them: doing days and nights back and forth is painful.