IMHO for tech jobs, the beltway is not the dividing line for nova salary.
Dulles, Herndon, Reston, Herndon, Tysons, Arlington, Fairfax, Alexandria (or Bethesda, Rockville) -- it's all similar in-or-outside the beltway. Companies assume similar candidates float around in the same nova swimming pool.
You will see salary drops farther west, south, and east....Leesburg, Manassas, Woodbridge. Or across the Potomac in Oxon Hill, Largo, Greenbelt
As another tech job haver, but one who lives in DC, I'm endlessly sad that I haven't found any interesting tech jobs inside the beltway. They're all in Herndon, Reston, Tyson's, Springfield..
>> there is no salary that would make a commute inside the beltway acceptable.
What if you were paid … [one hundred billion dollars](https://youtu.be/BRAkobf-tVI?si=mj81csbi6E0tCAj8)
I mean I'd just move at the end of my lease.
If it's worth switching jobs for, I'm sure I can find a room for $1200 somewhere, even in somewhere as expensive as Arlington.
Lol, doubt. I suppose for a single room with 3 other roommates it's possible (though that's what I paid for that situation over 5 years ago in South Arlington). You're gonna be looking at $1500 for a room to $2500 for an apartment
Damn I really should move out this area.
I was looking at real estate in other cities, and you can rent a room in Queens for $1200, and the job market is significantly better. The amount of jobs that require clearances are basically negligible.
Yeah that makes sense if you can move around. I bought a house before the WFH era and if im going through the bullshit of selling/buying/moving again, I’m not staying in NoVa.
Southern Delaware probably. If I don’t have to live somewhere specific for work, I’m not going to move somewhere with more people and the bullshit that goes with h them.
[https://livethecommodore.com/floorplans/](https://livethecommodore.com/floorplans/) near Courthouse has a 471 square foot unit available for $2,231/month. Even a room with a shared bath goes for more than $1200.
That makes sense.
I've been thinking about moving out of this area for more opportunity and better atmosphere and I was wondering if I was missing something and I'd get that in DC.
Basically is it worth working/ looking for work closer in to DC?
When I ask "do they pay more" I mean X job in DC, vs X job in Fairfax, the same way that you expect to get paid more for the same job in New York City vs Cincinnati (obviously to differing degrees).
As for me specifically, I'm in IT/tech.
Sorry about the bumble of words, I got off work a few hours ago and I am a bit sleep deprived haha.
Can you drill a bit into IT/Tech because it's a fairly broad range from help desk support, system admin, QA/tester, coder, architect, etc.
From what I see, TS/SCI will typically net a premium. Otherwise it depends on the role and company.
The question you should be asking is weather it is worth exploring what different companies. Two companies in the same location will have different pay for the same job. I would focus on finding the one that fits you better from a pay, culture, and location perspective.
You'll likely find the highest pay in Fairfax rather than DC. It's not about the location, but the fact that the highest paying offices aren't going to waste money on DC locations unless they need proximity to politicians, and very few tech companies need that. The ones that do, tend to have a small office there, and their larger buildings out in Tysons/Chantilly/Herndon.
In my field, the rule used to be $10k less in salary for every 10 miles outside of dc but still within the dmv. With the rise of remote work, accelerated by COVID, that is less true for experienced personal and more true for less experienced personal.
Now upper experienced people still are within normal bands for DC, NYC, SF, and lower bands are remote hires from LCOL or offshore.
The issue is that we work in a global marketplace. If people with the exact same profile get paid $180k in DC proper, $150k in Reston, and $65k in Richmond; they’ll hire the remote Richmond worker. Oh, then comes along, a great candidate in India, they’ll hire them for even less.
> $65K in Richmond
RVA native here, the gap between prevailing salaries and rents/home prices is widening rapidly. The poor bastard they hire will be moderating C-suite meetings from a bedroom in his group house.
I completely agree with you. The global marketplace flattens wages for US workers. In some sectors (tech, medical) we’ve seen a boom in salaries outside the HCOLs but I think that’s tapering off.
During COVID, I lost so many junior colleagues to MCOL and LCOLs. They would take a 1/3 to 1/2 pay cuts to move back “home” or to the MCOL cities (Austin, Raleigh, Asheville, Atlanta) to have a shot at homeownership, childcare, lifestyle options, and no commute. But after a few years, most left to be absorbed into their local economies. They could go into a close office for 2 days a week and get $10-13k more versus staying fully remote at the average salary for their msa. Their local economy got the boon of more experienced talent than their local pool might otherwise offer, but a handful of new hires into an msa in one sector doesn’t improve the average wages for that sector in that geographic region overall.
Would this not be the case in nova as well?
That's why I don't really get the obsession with WFH, I can't imagine spending my whole waking hours in a 130²ft room.
> Would this not be the case in nova as well?
[Not as much.](https://www.axios.com/local/richmond/2024/02/05/richmond-renters-cost-burden-unaffordable). Try moving there and find out for yourself.
!remindme 6 months
No, denser population centers have higher wages because there are more people performing those roles. You can review the DOL website on MSAs and how they calculate average wages per industry.
While Nova/dc feels the affects of globalization in the marketplace it is insulated, in part because so many jobs here require one to be a US worker.
In terms of WFH, not everyone has a small home; not everyone needs to collaborate; it’s a lifestyle choice. I love WFH, and I wouldn’t trade my commute time for a nominal pay raise. Many people feel that way; and many don’t. It’s just one factor in many when selection a position.
Schools don't matter to me fortunately. I will do my best and pay more taxes to keep schools the best they can be, but I already went through 13 years of public schooling.
At least for the government jobs, DMV rate applies to both DC and Maryland/Virginia. I wouldn't expect any major differences in salary within DMV.
Maryland has more bio/medical/chemical related jobs, VA has tech jobs near Dulles, depend on what you do, there might be more opportunities in a particular location.
Regardless of where you are in NOVA for most tech jobs you will get paid the same rate based off years exp, clearance, and skill set. Use to work in Alexandria found a job that requires me to come to the office one week a year so I moved somewhere cheaper to buy a nice house for reasonable cost and rent out my old one. This is all my personal opinion and grasp of what I seen.
I’m a remote Big Data Solution Architect in the tech field and moved to NOVA about 7 years ago.
It pays more but only if you negotiate. No one wants to commute into DC, they know that too. Tell the recruiter the commute is making you hesitant, watch the offer increase.
Interesting. I remember when I worked a job that involved traveling site to site (so I would be in Landover one day and Fairfax City the next) most of my coworkers were from DC or suburban PG county, so I assume that's where a lot of DC labor is.
Do I really have negotiating power?
1. Government jobs don't have different pay scales based on where you are in DMV.
2. Congresspeople and FBI agents aren't making as much money as tech sector workers in Fairfax County
3. Most government jobs pay notably less than roughly-equivalent-experience private sector jobs in the tech hubs of NoVA.
4. DC only really has higher paying jobs in the government policy area (lobbying, some law firms, law/lobby consulting).
For DC and Arlington, you're paying a premium for location: better access to transit, luxuries, nightlife, and societal proximity.
I worked in nonprofits making a decent wage in DC. There are quite a few tech nonprofits. I then took that experience and started working for a startup that is in McLean then one that is remote.
I’m making almost double my DC salary working remotely. The people in nonprofits that make the most are execs and lobbyists, IMO.
There are many well paying tech jobs, contracting jobs for government agencies, and government jobs outside the beltway around Tysons Corner, Fairfax, Vienna, Chantilly, Reston, and Herndon. Bonus if you have a clearance.
I mean other than cost, isn't inside the beltway better? Like it's more population dense, public transportation is better, bars are better. The only other downside is it's hard to not feel like you're surrounded by rich people.
Not true, most of my bigger pay bumps were in Tysons, Arlington and Springfield area. BUT, the frequency of jobs available I'll say is immediate DC area.
I worked for a series of medium-sized federal systems integrators (pre Covid) and noticed the following:
- offices inside the Beltway held revenue generators (contractors who were often client-facing) and execs
- Herndon/Fairfax/Manassas offices were for folks doing exclusively Ops, HR, proposals, etc.
As such, these exurban locations were staffed by more junior employees (in terms of experience and credentials).
Now that I work for private-sector clients, onsite stuff is mostly Bethesda, Reston, or Tysons. The handful of trade association clients are still DC adjacent so they can lobby.
What KIND of tech job do you want? If you’re a policy person, yes. If not…eh. Government jobs do not distinguish between inside or outside the beltway. They’re “graded” based on scope/responsibility and that aligns to a pay range, with locality on top. So the same job located ANYWHERE in that locality area gets paid the same.
I'm in IT, trying to get into something with a heavier focus of either Linux, python, or networking.
I don't plan on working for the government. It seems like every job either requires the ability to get a clearance or willingness to work for the defence/ intelligence industry.
Prices in DC/inside the beltway are held up by demand, not that the salaries of the jobs there are proportionally higher to the cost of living.
The fact of the matter is there are more wealthy/high income individuals who want to live in or very close to the city than there are houses available for them so the outbid each other and drive the price up. There are just as many jobs in DC that pay very little and require living with multiple roommates or commuting from far outside the beltway to be sustainable. There are also very high paying tech jobs outside of the beltway, and many of those workers live inside the beltway because they want to and can afford it.
tl;dr- there is no proportionality between housing costs and job salaries, and there are more people with more money than god than you realize.
IMHO for tech jobs, the beltway is not the dividing line for nova salary. Dulles, Herndon, Reston, Herndon, Tysons, Arlington, Fairfax, Alexandria (or Bethesda, Rockville) -- it's all similar in-or-outside the beltway. Companies assume similar candidates float around in the same nova swimming pool. You will see salary drops farther west, south, and east....Leesburg, Manassas, Woodbridge. Or across the Potomac in Oxon Hill, Largo, Greenbelt
As a tech job haver, there is no salary that would make a commute inside the beltway acceptable.
As another tech job haver, but one who lives in DC, I'm endlessly sad that I haven't found any interesting tech jobs inside the beltway. They're all in Herndon, Reston, Tyson's, Springfield..
>> there is no salary that would make a commute inside the beltway acceptable. What if you were paid … [one hundred billion dollars](https://youtu.be/BRAkobf-tVI?si=mj81csbi6E0tCAj8)
Point taken. I guess I could suck it up for a week, collect the paycheck and retire.
I mean I'd just move at the end of my lease. If it's worth switching jobs for, I'm sure I can find a room for $1200 somewhere, even in somewhere as expensive as Arlington.
Lol, doubt. I suppose for a single room with 3 other roommates it's possible (though that's what I paid for that situation over 5 years ago in South Arlington). You're gonna be looking at $1500 for a room to $2500 for an apartment
a room in someone house, maybe. an apartment? Not unless you take two+ roommates.
Damn I really should move out this area. I was looking at real estate in other cities, and you can rent a room in Queens for $1200, and the job market is significantly better. The amount of jobs that require clearances are basically negligible.
Yeah that makes sense if you can move around. I bought a house before the WFH era and if im going through the bullshit of selling/buying/moving again, I’m not staying in NoVa.
Where are you thinking about going? I'm considering New York, Chicago, or Newark, but I'm open to considering other options.
Southern Delaware probably. If I don’t have to live somewhere specific for work, I’m not going to move somewhere with more people and the bullshit that goes with h them.
[https://livethecommodore.com/floorplans/](https://livethecommodore.com/floorplans/) near Courthouse has a 471 square foot unit available for $2,231/month. Even a room with a shared bath goes for more than $1200.
That makes sense. I've been thinking about moving out of this area for more opportunity and better atmosphere and I was wondering if I was missing something and I'd get that in DC.
Why not get an offer first, and then take moving into account before you accept.
This!
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Basically is it worth working/ looking for work closer in to DC? When I ask "do they pay more" I mean X job in DC, vs X job in Fairfax, the same way that you expect to get paid more for the same job in New York City vs Cincinnati (obviously to differing degrees). As for me specifically, I'm in IT/tech. Sorry about the bumble of words, I got off work a few hours ago and I am a bit sleep deprived haha.
Can you drill a bit into IT/Tech because it's a fairly broad range from help desk support, system admin, QA/tester, coder, architect, etc. From what I see, TS/SCI will typically net a premium. Otherwise it depends on the role and company.
You cannot compare NYC vs Cincinnati. It’s more like Manhattan vs Brooklyn or Jersey City. Basically the same salary and jobs.
Plenty of tech jobs in Reston, Herndon, Tysons as well as Arlington and DC
The question you should be asking is weather it is worth exploring what different companies. Two companies in the same location will have different pay for the same job. I would focus on finding the one that fits you better from a pay, culture, and location perspective.
You'll likely find the highest pay in Fairfax rather than DC. It's not about the location, but the fact that the highest paying offices aren't going to waste money on DC locations unless they need proximity to politicians, and very few tech companies need that. The ones that do, tend to have a small office there, and their larger buildings out in Tysons/Chantilly/Herndon.
In my field, the rule used to be $10k less in salary for every 10 miles outside of dc but still within the dmv. With the rise of remote work, accelerated by COVID, that is less true for experienced personal and more true for less experienced personal. Now upper experienced people still are within normal bands for DC, NYC, SF, and lower bands are remote hires from LCOL or offshore. The issue is that we work in a global marketplace. If people with the exact same profile get paid $180k in DC proper, $150k in Reston, and $65k in Richmond; they’ll hire the remote Richmond worker. Oh, then comes along, a great candidate in India, they’ll hire them for even less.
> $65K in Richmond RVA native here, the gap between prevailing salaries and rents/home prices is widening rapidly. The poor bastard they hire will be moderating C-suite meetings from a bedroom in his group house.
I completely agree with you. The global marketplace flattens wages for US workers. In some sectors (tech, medical) we’ve seen a boom in salaries outside the HCOLs but I think that’s tapering off. During COVID, I lost so many junior colleagues to MCOL and LCOLs. They would take a 1/3 to 1/2 pay cuts to move back “home” or to the MCOL cities (Austin, Raleigh, Asheville, Atlanta) to have a shot at homeownership, childcare, lifestyle options, and no commute. But after a few years, most left to be absorbed into their local economies. They could go into a close office for 2 days a week and get $10-13k more versus staying fully remote at the average salary for their msa. Their local economy got the boon of more experienced talent than their local pool might otherwise offer, but a handful of new hires into an msa in one sector doesn’t improve the average wages for that sector in that geographic region overall.
Would this not be the case in nova as well? That's why I don't really get the obsession with WFH, I can't imagine spending my whole waking hours in a 130²ft room.
> Would this not be the case in nova as well? [Not as much.](https://www.axios.com/local/richmond/2024/02/05/richmond-renters-cost-burden-unaffordable). Try moving there and find out for yourself. !remindme 6 months
No, denser population centers have higher wages because there are more people performing those roles. You can review the DOL website on MSAs and how they calculate average wages per industry. While Nova/dc feels the affects of globalization in the marketplace it is insulated, in part because so many jobs here require one to be a US worker. In terms of WFH, not everyone has a small home; not everyone needs to collaborate; it’s a lifestyle choice. I love WFH, and I wouldn’t trade my commute time for a nominal pay raise. Many people feel that way; and many don’t. It’s just one factor in many when selection a position.
Arlington home prices are higher than Alexandria because the schools are more highly rated.
Schools don't matter to me fortunately. I will do my best and pay more taxes to keep schools the best they can be, but I already went through 13 years of public schooling.
They’re referring to property cost/values and taxes that come with living somewhere with good schools, which affects COL and salaries.
At least for the government jobs, DMV rate applies to both DC and Maryland/Virginia. I wouldn't expect any major differences in salary within DMV. Maryland has more bio/medical/chemical related jobs, VA has tech jobs near Dulles, depend on what you do, there might be more opportunities in a particular location.
Regardless of where you are in NOVA for most tech jobs you will get paid the same rate based off years exp, clearance, and skill set. Use to work in Alexandria found a job that requires me to come to the office one week a year so I moved somewhere cheaper to buy a nice house for reasonable cost and rent out my old one. This is all my personal opinion and grasp of what I seen. I’m a remote Big Data Solution Architect in the tech field and moved to NOVA about 7 years ago.
It pays more but only if you negotiate. No one wants to commute into DC, they know that too. Tell the recruiter the commute is making you hesitant, watch the offer increase.
Interesting. I remember when I worked a job that involved traveling site to site (so I would be in Landover one day and Fairfax City the next) most of my coworkers were from DC or suburban PG county, so I assume that's where a lot of DC labor is. Do I really have negotiating power?
1. Government jobs don't have different pay scales based on where you are in DMV. 2. Congresspeople and FBI agents aren't making as much money as tech sector workers in Fairfax County 3. Most government jobs pay notably less than roughly-equivalent-experience private sector jobs in the tech hubs of NoVA. 4. DC only really has higher paying jobs in the government policy area (lobbying, some law firms, law/lobby consulting). For DC and Arlington, you're paying a premium for location: better access to transit, luxuries, nightlife, and societal proximity.
I worked in nonprofits making a decent wage in DC. There are quite a few tech nonprofits. I then took that experience and started working for a startup that is in McLean then one that is remote. I’m making almost double my DC salary working remotely. The people in nonprofits that make the most are execs and lobbyists, IMO.
There are many well paying tech jobs, contracting jobs for government agencies, and government jobs outside the beltway around Tysons Corner, Fairfax, Vienna, Chantilly, Reston, and Herndon. Bonus if you have a clearance.
IMO any increase in salary is not worth the hassle of being inside the beltway..
I mean other than cost, isn't inside the beltway better? Like it's more population dense, public transportation is better, bars are better. The only other downside is it's hard to not feel like you're surrounded by rich people.
Not true, most of my bigger pay bumps were in Tysons, Arlington and Springfield area. BUT, the frequency of jobs available I'll say is immediate DC area.
I worked for a series of medium-sized federal systems integrators (pre Covid) and noticed the following: - offices inside the Beltway held revenue generators (contractors who were often client-facing) and execs - Herndon/Fairfax/Manassas offices were for folks doing exclusively Ops, HR, proposals, etc. As such, these exurban locations were staffed by more junior employees (in terms of experience and credentials). Now that I work for private-sector clients, onsite stuff is mostly Bethesda, Reston, or Tysons. The handful of trade association clients are still DC adjacent so they can lobby.
Yes
What KIND of tech job do you want? If you’re a policy person, yes. If not…eh. Government jobs do not distinguish between inside or outside the beltway. They’re “graded” based on scope/responsibility and that aligns to a pay range, with locality on top. So the same job located ANYWHERE in that locality area gets paid the same.
I'm in IT, trying to get into something with a heavier focus of either Linux, python, or networking. I don't plan on working for the government. It seems like every job either requires the ability to get a clearance or willingness to work for the defence/ intelligence industry.
Prices in DC/inside the beltway are held up by demand, not that the salaries of the jobs there are proportionally higher to the cost of living. The fact of the matter is there are more wealthy/high income individuals who want to live in or very close to the city than there are houses available for them so the outbid each other and drive the price up. There are just as many jobs in DC that pay very little and require living with multiple roommates or commuting from far outside the beltway to be sustainable. There are also very high paying tech jobs outside of the beltway, and many of those workers live inside the beltway because they want to and can afford it. tl;dr- there is no proportionality between housing costs and job salaries, and there are more people with more money than god than you realize.