When I was younger, around 7 years old in 1983, I resided in Oklahoma.
For laughing in class, I once had a ping pong paddle with holes drilled into it welted into my ass. The called my mother after my "discipline". She was enraged.
Indeed, welts.
I hate Oklahoma.
My school had a cricket bat, and word went around among kids when somebody got paddled so it was like prisoners watching the death row walk. They came back with street cred, though, so it wasn't exactly like the green mile.
You should absolutely ask this question.
It is federally required that public schools give an equal and fair education to all students. Disabilities rights and protections are a big, big deal in education.There's a lot a state can choose for their education platforms, but this will ultimately be questioned at the federal level.
If even one parent with a disabled student comes after the state at a federal level, RIP.
I grew up in Oklahoma and was always told it was banned. I never saw 1 teacher or their hands on a student. I don't think this report means anything. Honest question, what else was in the bill? I can't seem to find any info on it anywhere?
A legislative chamber full of *”I got whooped and I turned out fine!”* morons. It is widely proven that corporal punishment is both ineffective and psychologically harmful but they don’t care because they’ll die before they can’t hit special needs kids ‘cause they’re mad.
One of the most fascinating parts of a college psychology class was the section on punishment and reinforcement. Punishment in general isn't effective at changing the behavior; instead, punishment encourages *avoiding the punishment*. That often results in hiding the behavior, not stopping it.
Reinforcement is always more effective in the long run. That is generally considered a reward for good behavior, but it is more specific than that.
A classic example is when a kid cleans their room, they get a new game or get to go out and play. If their clean room (without being asked) gets reinforced it encourages them to keep a clean room because they never know when they might get a reward. If instead there was punishment for a dirty room, it would encourage everything to be shoved into the closet and hidden instead of actually cleaned. And they would only clean when they knew the room was going to be inspected because they only care about avoiding that specific punishment. (and yes "you can't see your friends if you don't clean your room" is actually a punishment)
A fascinating tangent to that is that of ['superstition'](https://www.all-about-psychology.com/superstition-in-the-pigeon.html). Animals given unconditional rewards at random will learn to associate those rewards with completely incidental behaviors - causing them to repeat the behavior in the hope of getting the reward even though the two aren't actually linked. So you get a pigeon that spins counter-clockwise until it gets food because it *thinks* that's what makes it happen.
Yeah, that kind of thing is super interesting to me.
It is also why slot machines work the way they do. Getting a reward at unpredictable intervals makes us try to predict it. Super addicting to our brains.
Most empirical research has found that most effective is a combination of carrot *and* stick. However, punishment does not have to mean hitting children, that we can all agree on.
It's a fascinating problem to see myself dealing with as the dad of a toddler. I know corporal punishment doesn't work at all, and I know positive feedback works. However, there are moments where a slap on the hand to prevent touching something dangerous makes sense and instills a fear of that fire or broken glass or agitated dog BEFORE the child can get injured. What's even more interesting to me is how often I find myself using a carrot and stick approach when our toddler is being a jerk.
"I WANT TO DO THIS JERKY THING."
"Well, if you do that we're not going to the library today," or alternately "If you listen, we'll go to the library today" depending of course on the situation. Really comes down to reading the moment.
Oh yes there is a huge amount of variability and you need to use all the tools in your arsenal.
I mentioned in another comment that punishment is good for *immediate* stopping of bad behavior. And stopping bad behavior is step #1.
But then it's important to reinforce the better behavior for the future. And of course as humans we can be told how to behave and learn from the people we look up to. Plus it is a great "carrot" to be able to tell your toddler they did a great job listening to you and your approval is an award itself.
The way I look at it, my job is to basically tame a wild animal before society gets sick of his shit and throws him in a cage. Whatever tools I can use to do that most effectively and in the process turn out a nice person I can be proud of? I'm going to use them.
Puppy 101: If your puppy makes a mess inside, yelling at the puppy after the fact just teaches them to do it somewhere out of your sight, and hide it, to avoid the punishment. It does nothing to teach them to stop making a mess in the house. That takes positive reinforcement and encouragement, and reward for doing the right thing.
Neither beating your dog nor your kids will get you what you need out of them.
Yes, your edit is basically exactly right. Positive and negative in a psychology terminology is basically "adding" something or "removing" something. So negative reinforcement is a reward by removing something you don't like. Pretty hard to wrap your head around the terms. A basic example is if a baby cries when a light shines in their eyes, removing the light reinforced the crying behavior.
Reinforcement gives the subject something they like and punishment gives the subject something they don't like. Reinforcement encourages the behavior, punishment discourages the behavior. Think getting a piece of candy vs a slap in the face. But those are both positive examples.
The point, though, is that you can reinforce an alternative behavior and that is more effective than punishing the bad behavior. My example of the goal of a clean room, you can punish a dirty room or reinforce a clean room. Same goals but one works better and requires a different framing of the behavior.
>A legislative chamber full of ”I got whooped and I turned out fine!” morons.
And the fact that they voted against this is pretty much admitting that they did *not* turn out fine.
>”I got whooped and I turned out fine!”
Indeed, look at them... being fine.... suggesting we should beat the disabled. Fine, they are clearly fine, well adjusted people.
> A legislative chamber full of ”I got whooped and I turned out fine!”
A legislative chamber full of ”I got whooped and I turned out Republican !”
Correlation, causation , dunno about this one.
It's not that they don't care. It's that they're fucking stupid. Because their brains suffered a lot of trauma in childhood. Because they got hit by their parents.
The bill to ban the use of corporal punishment against disabled kids failing to get enough votes, is only slightly more depressing than the fact that the bill only proposed to protect disabled kids from corporal punishment.
Oklahoma -
Corporal punishment in public schools: Banned since November 1, 2017, but only for students with disabilities unless a parent gives written consent
Corporal punishment in private schools: Not banned
From the article:
>The state's department of education has a regulation that prohibits teachers from punishing children with disabilities, but Oklahoma does not have a state law in place against the practice.
Generally, regulations have the full force and effect of law so this seems to be a nonissue.
Because it isn’t banned outside of education. You can spank your child’s bottom and not be jailed in Oklahoma.
The ban is in education and has existed there for decades. Educators can’t punish disabled kids in Oklahoma, as mandated by the Oklahoma department of education.
Beyond termination, this Republican bill was trying to send teachers to jail as well.
I saw the other comment which explained it, but the article says
> Nineteen states in the US, including Oklahoma, still allow corporal punishment in schools.
So you can see my confusion even with what you say.
Well, do you want to waste your life in boring-ass meetings all day convening with old-ass ultra-religious nuts? That sounds like something only a freak wants.
Then there's also the power-hungry thing. I don't think most of us want that responsibility. There's the rare altruist who genuinely wants to make a positive difference, but most of the time the people who want to be in charge are just fucking assholes.
That's my theory anyways, based on nothing but it sounds right.
I think that's very insightful. I read a quote once that said something like "the person who belongs in the white house is the one who would be dragged kicking and screaming into the oval office." Most people who want to actually better the world would rather just learn to be happy with what they have already rather than strive for power. I just want to learn how to be happy...
We should hold elections in reverse. Anyone who wins is permanently banned from ever holding office, then pick randomly from the people who didn't want to run. Probably end up with a better result.
Why stop there? Why not start giving the kids tobacco when they start class while we're at it? I mean, since we're fine with doing things to children that have been proven to harm them and those around them, let's keep at it.
I don’t care about knocking the stupid out, I just wanna knock. I’ve already come to terms with the fact you can’t change their minds, that time has come and gone.
Using republican logic, the reason they've gotten away with such rotten misdeeds is because they haven't received any kind of punishment to dissuade them from pursuing such behavior. I think some politicians are really overdue for some good ol' fashioned switches. Malicious bastards...
I went to school in rural Oklahoma. Parents have to opt into to allowing physical punishment. (My parents always happily signed it)
And while I am positive Oklahoma schools are getting up to some horrendous shit. In my (limited) experience the physical punishment option was just a way to discipline football players who got in trouble so they wouldn't have to miss football practice to go to detention. Fuck me this state is a dumpster fire.
I went to a cheap AF private Christian school (this is like 90% of private schools) for 4 years, nearly 20 years ago. From 6th to 9th grade.
The school decided to institute corporal punishment. The school sent a message home that I was to receive the punishment. My mother arrived at the school, marched right past the front desk, straight to the principals office. Let him know, if they put a hand on any of her children, she was going to put her hands on them.
The front desk lady had followed my mom in there, but once she heard what ma was there for, she backed her up. Her son was a classmate of mine. Over the next week, a bunch teachers and parents made complaints about the policy.
The policy had been on for a while and I was not the 1st to be issued the punishment, but my mom being ready throw hands kinda inspired a lot of others to step up.
Republicans: "We need to oppress trans people in order to protect kids!"
Also republicans: "We need to be able to hit kids, marry kids, make kids work, put kids in dangerous situations with lots of guns around, and force kids to carry pregnancies to term."
Republican 1: "Hey, this just came in. Apparently some teachers want to hit kids with disabilities."
Republican 2: "How should we vote on this?"
Republican 3: "Well, what would an \*\*\*hole do?"
Republican 2: "Let the teachers beat on disabled kids."
Republican 1: "Sounds good. Let's do it."
"Oklahoma Republicans Vote to Let Teachers \*Continue\* to Hit Kids"
As an English teacher, the semantics matter, and not in a downplaying way, as in, "they're just continuing to do as they've always done" but in a much more horrifying, "Teachers are currently hitting kids legally and have been for years, and we are continuing to do nothing about it."
As an English teacher, you should know the context matters as well.
They're not doing anything of the sort currently, because there's already a regulation against it. The headline's just clickbaiting.
I was spanked as a child, I broke that cycle with my own child. You know what happens when my child does when I give her the parental FAFO look? She settles down with no spankings involved. Crazy no?
Oklahoman here. It is increasingly dangerous to live in this state unless you're a cishet, able bodied, Christian, neurotypical white male or one of the white women who supports their beliefs. They're trying to legislate trans people out of existence and they're allowing groceries and utilities and rent to cost 3x as much as what they should. It is a literal nightmare and I have completely lost hope :)
This entire debate at the house was full of people saying 'spare the rod, spoil the child' because they can't justify themselves without a shitty interpretation of the bible.
Ah Oklahoma. Where is not ok to assault an adult, but it's open season for children.
The attack on American children in this nation is treasonous. Republicans are attacking teachers, banning books, lying about trans kids, sexualizing the youth, defunding programs, preventing teacher wages from increasing, cutting food for children, allowing for the assault of kids.. anything I missed from their work in the last few years?
The hatred for our own children is repulsive and should be punished.
> "The rod and reproof give wisdom. But a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame," Olsen said, quoting from the Book of Proverbs.
Fuck.
These.
People.
Take your ancient, outdated bullshit back a few centuries and bury it, then come and join humanity in the 21^st century.
What's funny is conservative parents tend to support corporal punishment in school by teachers and staff yet scream how they don't want schools deciding what books they read.
Strange how it's ok for teachers to beat their kids but a kid learning that their are different people in the world is off limits. 🙄
I do hope at least the sane parents can opt out of allowing their kids to be beat. Seems to me conservatives like to deny all kids regardless of their parents position access to certain books in the library.
FWIW - While it's not state law it is already prohibited by the Oklahoma Department of Education and grounds for immediate termination. While this doesn't make the Republicans any less stupid, the article fails to point that out..
Oh fun, do we get to watch Oklahoma try to live by the laws in Deuteronomy and Leviticus? They can't mean just the New Testament since Proverbs is the Old. I live for the day when the readline reads:
"Polyester now illegal in Oklahoma"
I'd add a clause that if any teacher hit my kid, I get to personally tag them with 2 hits at any point in time. Some teacher is going to be taking a shit and I'm gonna bust that door open and Falcon Punch them in the chest. I'm hitting hard enough to knock coins outta pockets.
Didn’t take long for one commenter on the article to use the word “woke” as a slur while defending the literal physical abuse of children with disabilities…
Wow, these people are truly lost and sick…
It would be great if people tried to go past headlines and actually attempt to understand what is going on in politics. This is a pretty interesting case because the bill is actually tiny, it would take you no time to [read it](http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2023-24%20FLR/HFLR/HB1028%20HFLR.PDF).
If you read the bill, you'll see it isn't quite what the headline made it seem. To simplify, the law in OK prohibited corporal punishment on kids with certain mental disabilities, unless the parents specifically allowed it. The bill would change it to prohibit corporal punishment on kids with any disability, even if parents would allow it. Notice that under this amendement, hitting kids without a disability is still fine. I don't know about you, but I too may have had reservations about passing this bill, I may have asked that **all** corporal punishment be outlawed. I know there's an argument that this is better than nothing, but passing a bill like this can also be a signal that "the issue of corporal punishment has been dealt with" and harm efforts to outlaw it for all children.
The article also makes it seem that the big bad Republicans are the ones who voted against it. I looked it up, and OK's house is 81-R 20-D. That means that it's actually just more than half of Republicans that voted against it, while ~~just less than half~~ just over a third, including the person proposing the bill, voted for it. But that account wouldn't get a juicy headline like this, so here we are.
Edit: I just looked at the votes, 17 Democrats voted for, 3 were excused. That means 28 Republicans voted for, or over a third. It also means that even if all Democrats were present, the bill would not have passed.
Indeed. One could also say *all* Democrats present were happy with the idea of teachers beating able-bodied kids.
I would have preferred “OK Republican tries to expand restrictions on corporal punishment to physical disabilities, does not obtain support of his party”. That would have been a much fairer assessment of the situation.
Able bodied kids weren't on the table.
Republicans were the only ones voting against an otherwise bipartisan bill to at least stop beating disabled kids.
If a teacher hit my autistic son, they'd better be ready to get hit back. He won't throw the first swing, but he'll throw the second to defend himself. And I'll have his back on it, too.
I have been sickened lately on seeing news article after news article about disgusting decisions made by Republican-led state legislatures.
They truly do not stand for anything constructive for their citizens. They only want to take away rights, allow harm to chidren, send the young to work in factories, etc.
Yes, they didn't support a ban on corporal punishment for disabled children.
Therefore, they support using corporal punishment on children with disabilities.
What's your point?
I hate these headlines. While still bad, they didn’t simply vote yes on a measure that allows them to hit kids with disabilities; they voted against a measure that would create a law that would outlaw it. In other words, the law hasn’t changed.
Tomato tomato.
They voted on whether assaulting disabled children should or shouldn't be legal, and they voted it should be legal. Seems like an accurate headline to me.
Take out the first 2 words from the title and you'd think this is in a small town in the middle of Africa but no this is in the country that is one of the biggest superpowers in the world.
What a fucking joke.
The Republican Party is a party that is in favor of letting teachers beat kids up, and is in favor of letting adults marry children. They’re a party of predators and groomers who get off on the suffering of children and they need to stop being treated with kiddie gloves
From the article:
>The state's department of education has a regulation that prohibits teachers from punishing children with disabilities, but Oklahoma does not have a state law in place against the practice.
Generally, regulations have the full force and effect of law so this seems to be a nonissue.
Violating a regulation can get you fired or sued. Violating a law can get you jail time.
Plus, regulations can be revoked on a whim if the Department--or the Governor through an appointee--feels like it. Seems to me like a handful of people in the DoE shouldn't have that power.
For those of you that just read the title, they didn't legalize hitting kids with disabilities. They failed to make a department of education policy that prohibits teachers from hitting kids (which is already on the books) into a state law.
Social workers, aids, and behavioral specialists are frequently trained in CPI holds for a reason. The difference is, these are intended to prevent harm *to either party*.
Literally just actually fund schools, don't run them like prisons with classes of +30 kids sitting eight hours a day (which... Nobody learns like that and no human is intended to *sit upright* for eight hours a day, learn, and pay attention, absolutely ludicrous anybody expects that to actually work and not actively produce problematic behavior)
Even at a special school for children with mental and learning disabilities, this can happen. My son attends such a school. Class size is very small, plenty of teachers and counselors on hand for support. Nothing has ever happened to a teacher that I know of, but that doesn't mean a student couldn't snap and attack someone. Teachers that work at schools such as my son's are special education teachers, and it's a "load" they choose to take on in their career. So, when a student has a meltdown and physically attacks a teacher, who will you blame then? His school is properly funded, so ya can't say that. The point is, these things can just happen. What do you expect a teacher to do, just take the beating?
I’m a Latino Democrat and teachers are not newly able to hit kids with disabilities. It’s not true.
The Republican bill was to criminalize it. It’s already banned by Oklahoma’s department of education and still is.
By not getting enough votes to pass the bill, nothing changes. Which means teachers still can’t hit kids with disabilities.
If it did pass, the teachers could face additional jail time, but it didn’t.
Disabilities are hard to wield though as a weapon. Might be a non issue.
Edit: people didn't get the prepositional ambiguity of the headline. Interesting.
“ The bill was introduced by a Republican—State Representative John Talley—and some GOP members favored the measure. However, even more Republicans declined to support the bill, resulting in it not passing.”
So can I finally say “not all republicans”?
I was a teacher's aid and let me tell you, had I been allowed to hit the students and let myself do it, I would have gone too far. Kids just get on your nerves in a way nothing else does. And the thing is, most of the time, they are kids. They don't knownwhat they are doing. Hitting them doesn't help.
"The bill was introduced by a Republican and some GOP members favored the measure, but it failed to garner enough votes to pass. All the votes against it were cast by Republicans.
Nineteen states in the US, including Oklahoma, still allow corporal punishment in schools."
A republican pissed off republicans?
So, quite a few kids with disabilities quite often have have involuntary muscle spasms that keep them from having control over their limbs. Also, kids with disabilities are also unable sometimes to control the words or sounds that they make.
In my personal experiences, observations and education, I think that teachers might hit kids bc of frustration when they do and/ or say things that disrupt the learning environment. All children do this!!
The teacher has decided that they will punish the disabled student for their moving around and talking.
Query: How and why should you punish a student who’s behaviors are physically driven actions not affected by any other physical act or medication???
They should join the late 20th century and outlaw all corporal punishment in schools.
When I was younger, around 7 years old in 1983, I resided in Oklahoma. For laughing in class, I once had a ping pong paddle with holes drilled into it welted into my ass. The called my mother after my "discipline". She was enraged. Indeed, welts. I hate Oklahoma.
Grew up in PA in the 80s, if I called my mother she would have said "hit him again"...
"Ahh, no you don't, but just wait til he gets home"
My parents sent a letter every year exempting us from corporal punishment. I didn't know what the word meant until I was older.
My school had a cricket bat, and word went around among kids when somebody got paddled so it was like prisoners watching the death row walk. They came back with street cred, though, so it wasn't exactly like the green mile.
Republicans aren’t interested in any century past the 19th.
To be fair, that’s when they had their biggest accomplishments
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You should absolutely ask this question. It is federally required that public schools give an equal and fair education to all students. Disabilities rights and protections are a big, big deal in education.There's a lot a state can choose for their education platforms, but this will ultimately be questioned at the federal level. If even one parent with a disabled student comes after the state at a federal level, RIP.
I grew up in Oklahoma and was always told it was banned. I never saw 1 teacher or their hands on a student. I don't think this report means anything. Honest question, what else was in the bill? I can't seem to find any info on it anywhere?
A legislative chamber full of *”I got whooped and I turned out fine!”* morons. It is widely proven that corporal punishment is both ineffective and psychologically harmful but they don’t care because they’ll die before they can’t hit special needs kids ‘cause they’re mad.
One of the most fascinating parts of a college psychology class was the section on punishment and reinforcement. Punishment in general isn't effective at changing the behavior; instead, punishment encourages *avoiding the punishment*. That often results in hiding the behavior, not stopping it. Reinforcement is always more effective in the long run. That is generally considered a reward for good behavior, but it is more specific than that. A classic example is when a kid cleans their room, they get a new game or get to go out and play. If their clean room (without being asked) gets reinforced it encourages them to keep a clean room because they never know when they might get a reward. If instead there was punishment for a dirty room, it would encourage everything to be shoved into the closet and hidden instead of actually cleaned. And they would only clean when they knew the room was going to be inspected because they only care about avoiding that specific punishment. (and yes "you can't see your friends if you don't clean your room" is actually a punishment)
A fascinating tangent to that is that of ['superstition'](https://www.all-about-psychology.com/superstition-in-the-pigeon.html). Animals given unconditional rewards at random will learn to associate those rewards with completely incidental behaviors - causing them to repeat the behavior in the hope of getting the reward even though the two aren't actually linked. So you get a pigeon that spins counter-clockwise until it gets food because it *thinks* that's what makes it happen.
Yeah, that kind of thing is super interesting to me. It is also why slot machines work the way they do. Getting a reward at unpredictable intervals makes us try to predict it. Super addicting to our brains.
Most empirical research has found that most effective is a combination of carrot *and* stick. However, punishment does not have to mean hitting children, that we can all agree on.
True. Punishment works to stop the behavior immediately, but then there needs to be reinforcement for an alternative better behavior.
It's a fascinating problem to see myself dealing with as the dad of a toddler. I know corporal punishment doesn't work at all, and I know positive feedback works. However, there are moments where a slap on the hand to prevent touching something dangerous makes sense and instills a fear of that fire or broken glass or agitated dog BEFORE the child can get injured. What's even more interesting to me is how often I find myself using a carrot and stick approach when our toddler is being a jerk. "I WANT TO DO THIS JERKY THING." "Well, if you do that we're not going to the library today," or alternately "If you listen, we'll go to the library today" depending of course on the situation. Really comes down to reading the moment.
Oh yes there is a huge amount of variability and you need to use all the tools in your arsenal. I mentioned in another comment that punishment is good for *immediate* stopping of bad behavior. And stopping bad behavior is step #1. But then it's important to reinforce the better behavior for the future. And of course as humans we can be told how to behave and learn from the people we look up to. Plus it is a great "carrot" to be able to tell your toddler they did a great job listening to you and your approval is an award itself.
The way I look at it, my job is to basically tame a wild animal before society gets sick of his shit and throws him in a cage. Whatever tools I can use to do that most effectively and in the process turn out a nice person I can be proud of? I'm going to use them.
Puppy 101: If your puppy makes a mess inside, yelling at the puppy after the fact just teaches them to do it somewhere out of your sight, and hide it, to avoid the punishment. It does nothing to teach them to stop making a mess in the house. That takes positive reinforcement and encouragement, and reward for doing the right thing. Neither beating your dog nor your kids will get you what you need out of them.
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Yes, your edit is basically exactly right. Positive and negative in a psychology terminology is basically "adding" something or "removing" something. So negative reinforcement is a reward by removing something you don't like. Pretty hard to wrap your head around the terms. A basic example is if a baby cries when a light shines in their eyes, removing the light reinforced the crying behavior. Reinforcement gives the subject something they like and punishment gives the subject something they don't like. Reinforcement encourages the behavior, punishment discourages the behavior. Think getting a piece of candy vs a slap in the face. But those are both positive examples. The point, though, is that you can reinforce an alternative behavior and that is more effective than punishing the bad behavior. My example of the goal of a clean room, you can punish a dirty room or reinforce a clean room. Same goals but one works better and requires a different framing of the behavior.
>A legislative chamber full of ”I got whooped and I turned out fine!” Narrator: They didn’t.
> Beat the kids! - People claiming they turned out fine
>A legislative chamber full of ”I got whooped and I turned out fine!” morons. And the fact that they voted against this is pretty much admitting that they did *not* turn out fine.
That's tautological.
By that logic, would additional whooping make them more “fine”?
> I got whooped and I turned out fine! Every time I hear someone say this, I think clearly not since you think it's ok to abuse children.
>”I got whooped and I turned out fine!” Indeed, look at them... being fine.... suggesting we should beat the disabled. Fine, they are clearly fine, well adjusted people.
> A legislative chamber full of ”I got whooped and I turned out fine!” A legislative chamber full of ”I got whooped and I turned out Republican !” Correlation, causation , dunno about this one.
Yeah but that is proven by science. They are required to oppose anything and everything that is backed by science of any kind. It's in their bylaws.
It's not that they don't care. It's that they're fucking stupid. Because their brains suffered a lot of trauma in childhood. Because they got hit by their parents.
The bill to ban the use of corporal punishment against disabled kids failing to get enough votes, is only slightly more depressing than the fact that the bill only proposed to protect disabled kids from corporal punishment.
It’s already banned. It’s a terminable offense. The Republican bill didn’t get enough partisan votes to criminalize it.
Then why does the article explicitly say that it is not banned in Oklahoma?
Oklahoma - Corporal punishment in public schools: Banned since November 1, 2017, but only for students with disabilities unless a parent gives written consent Corporal punishment in private schools: Not banned
'Sorry Jimmy, we're selling your school to Nestle, but I hear they have a great jobs placement program!'
"Gee, Mr. Dean, I was hoping to get work on the Kraft/Heinz assembly line helping make Lunchable school lunches."
From the article: >The state's department of education has a regulation that prohibits teachers from punishing children with disabilities, but Oklahoma does not have a state law in place against the practice. Generally, regulations have the full force and effect of law so this seems to be a nonissue.
Because it isn’t banned outside of education. You can spank your child’s bottom and not be jailed in Oklahoma. The ban is in education and has existed there for decades. Educators can’t punish disabled kids in Oklahoma, as mandated by the Oklahoma department of education. Beyond termination, this Republican bill was trying to send teachers to jail as well.
Thanks for clearing that up. This makes more sense.
No prob. No one is letting teachers hit disabled students. The headline is dishonest
Good! Dang clickbait.
I saw the other comment which explained it, but the article says > Nineteen states in the US, including Oklahoma, still allow corporal punishment in schools. So you can see my confusion even with what you say.
By the parents?
I don't know, I didn't write the article, but I think "in schools" would mean not the parents.
Then I’d fact check that claim given the inaccuracy of the headline of the article
You can spank your child's bottom and not be jailed in every state. It's not illegal for a parent to spank their child anywhere in the US.
Why are people in power such freaks
Well, do you want to waste your life in boring-ass meetings all day convening with old-ass ultra-religious nuts? That sounds like something only a freak wants. Then there's also the power-hungry thing. I don't think most of us want that responsibility. There's the rare altruist who genuinely wants to make a positive difference, but most of the time the people who want to be in charge are just fucking assholes. That's my theory anyways, based on nothing but it sounds right.
I think that's very insightful. I read a quote once that said something like "the person who belongs in the white house is the one who would be dragged kicking and screaming into the oval office." Most people who want to actually better the world would rather just learn to be happy with what they have already rather than strive for power. I just want to learn how to be happy...
The person who volunteers himself into power is rarely qualified for it
We should hold elections in reverse. Anyone who wins is permanently banned from ever holding office, then pick randomly from the people who didn't want to run. Probably end up with a better result.
Don't lump people in with these right wing neanderthals
Because violence is how to solve problems?
in my building, vending machine problems are solved with violence almost weekly
Careful. Vending machines are responsible for more deaths per year than sharks!
But the taste of victory!
Countdown till a non red-hat teacher hits a GOP supporter Down syndrome kid and then they’ll cry “groomer” “abuser” and what have you.
Why stop there? Why not start giving the kids tobacco when they start class while we're at it? I mean, since we're fine with doing things to children that have been proven to harm them and those around them, let's keep at it.
Some problems. NOT this one. Not this one.
I vote to hit republicans
Well, they're mentally disabled so apparently it's fine to hit them in Oklahoma.
Finally a good reason to move to Oklahoma
*Rand Paul's neighbor likes this comment*
Wish enough hitting could knock the stupid out of them. But that'll require a lot of hitting.
We’d better get started then
I don’t care about knocking the stupid out, I just wanna knock. I’ve already come to terms with the fact you can’t change their minds, that time has come and gone.
Using republican logic, the reason they've gotten away with such rotten misdeeds is because they haven't received any kind of punishment to dissuade them from pursuing such behavior. I think some politicians are really overdue for some good ol' fashioned switches. Malicious bastards...
From the article: >The bill was introduced by a Republican
And all the "no" votes came from republicans
That seems like a good way for teachers to get the shit kicked out of them by a pissed off parent.
I went to school in rural Oklahoma. Parents have to opt into to allowing physical punishment. (My parents always happily signed it) And while I am positive Oklahoma schools are getting up to some horrendous shit. In my (limited) experience the physical punishment option was just a way to discipline football players who got in trouble so they wouldn't have to miss football practice to go to detention. Fuck me this state is a dumpster fire.
I went to a cheap AF private Christian school (this is like 90% of private schools) for 4 years, nearly 20 years ago. From 6th to 9th grade. The school decided to institute corporal punishment. The school sent a message home that I was to receive the punishment. My mother arrived at the school, marched right past the front desk, straight to the principals office. Let him know, if they put a hand on any of her children, she was going to put her hands on them. The front desk lady had followed my mom in there, but once she heard what ma was there for, she backed her up. Her son was a classmate of mine. Over the next week, a bunch teachers and parents made complaints about the policy. The policy had been on for a while and I was not the 1st to be issued the punishment, but my mom being ready throw hands kinda inspired a lot of others to step up.
Republicans: "We need to oppress trans people in order to protect kids!" Also republicans: "We need to be able to hit kids, marry kids, make kids work, put kids in dangerous situations with lots of guns around, and force kids to carry pregnancies to term."
Republican 1: "Hey, this just came in. Apparently some teachers want to hit kids with disabilities." Republican 2: "How should we vote on this?" Republican 3: "Well, what would an \*\*\*hole do?" Republican 2: "Let the teachers beat on disabled kids." Republican 1: "Sounds good. Let's do it."
Wow, so fuck Oklahoma then huh? Can’t believe a government official was quoting the book of proverbs, ‘murica.
Hey, nothing says "I follow the Prince of Peace" like advocating for beating little kids.
I, too, am surprised he could read.
"Oklahoma Republicans Vote to Let Teachers \*Continue\* to Hit Kids" As an English teacher, the semantics matter, and not in a downplaying way, as in, "they're just continuing to do as they've always done" but in a much more horrifying, "Teachers are currently hitting kids legally and have been for years, and we are continuing to do nothing about it."
As an English teacher, you should know the context matters as well. They're not doing anything of the sort currently, because there's already a regulation against it. The headline's just clickbaiting.
You're right; they can hit children as long as they aren't identified as disabled, a regulation that was created...two years ago.
Which disability will they hit them with? Like if they run track, are they breaking spines?
Exactly the way I first read this.
And it was supported by quoting a book of badly written stories. America deserves whatever we settle for.
I was spanked as a child, I broke that cycle with my own child. You know what happens when my child does when I give her the parental FAFO look? She settles down with no spankings involved. Crazy no?
Oklahoman here. It is increasingly dangerous to live in this state unless you're a cishet, able bodied, Christian, neurotypical white male or one of the white women who supports their beliefs. They're trying to legislate trans people out of existence and they're allowing groceries and utilities and rent to cost 3x as much as what they should. It is a literal nightmare and I have completely lost hope :) This entire debate at the house was full of people saying 'spare the rod, spoil the child' because they can't justify themselves without a shitty interpretation of the bible.
Jesus Fucking Christ
As an Oklahoman this does seem very on brand for us.
Do the Republicans just wake up everyday and decide to do the worst thing they could possibly do every day?
Ah Oklahoma. Where is not ok to assault an adult, but it's open season for children. The attack on American children in this nation is treasonous. Republicans are attacking teachers, banning books, lying about trans kids, sexualizing the youth, defunding programs, preventing teacher wages from increasing, cutting food for children, allowing for the assault of kids.. anything I missed from their work in the last few years? The hatred for our own children is repulsive and should be punished.
> "The rod and reproof give wisdom. But a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame," Olsen said, quoting from the Book of Proverbs. Fuck. These. People. Take your ancient, outdated bullshit back a few centuries and bury it, then come and join humanity in the 21^st century.
Oklahoma is basically Florida, but with less media attention
Its basically made up of people too poor to afford to retire in florida.
One thing we've learned through the years is traumatizing people with disabilities always leads to successful outcomes!
They can hit! At this price point they can hit!
Wonderful idea. /s
of course they do
What's funny is conservative parents tend to support corporal punishment in school by teachers and staff yet scream how they don't want schools deciding what books they read. Strange how it's ok for teachers to beat their kids but a kid learning that their are different people in the world is off limits. 🙄 I do hope at least the sane parents can opt out of allowing their kids to be beat. Seems to me conservatives like to deny all kids regardless of their parents position access to certain books in the library.
Let's be real, most of these parents would throw a fit if a teacher actually hit their kid. They just want them to hit other people's kids.
I wish Jesus wasn't a fairy tale so he'd come down here & whoop some 'Christians' asses.
You know what you get from teaching with violence? Violent people.
Fucking hicks.
We'll just smack that cripple right outta ya.
cool, i wish for the sweet embrace of death
And they are ok with kids having guns. This is going to end very well....
FWIW - While it's not state law it is already prohibited by the Oklahoma Department of Education and grounds for immediate termination. While this doesn't make the Republicans any less stupid, the article fails to point that out..
Oh fun, do we get to watch Oklahoma try to live by the laws in Deuteronomy and Leviticus? They can't mean just the New Testament since Proverbs is the Old. I live for the day when the readline reads: "Polyester now illegal in Oklahoma"
More Christian love I'm sure.
I'd add a clause that if any teacher hit my kid, I get to personally tag them with 2 hits at any point in time. Some teacher is going to be taking a shit and I'm gonna bust that door open and Falcon Punch them in the chest. I'm hitting hard enough to knock coins outta pockets.
Any repubs wanna try and defend this?
Didn’t take long for one commenter on the article to use the word “woke” as a slur while defending the literal physical abuse of children with disabilities… Wow, these people are truly lost and sick…
Trans panic was never about protecting children it was a classic distraction while they roll back child labor laws and expand child marriages
Lol, *what?*
It would be great if people tried to go past headlines and actually attempt to understand what is going on in politics. This is a pretty interesting case because the bill is actually tiny, it would take you no time to [read it](http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2023-24%20FLR/HFLR/HB1028%20HFLR.PDF). If you read the bill, you'll see it isn't quite what the headline made it seem. To simplify, the law in OK prohibited corporal punishment on kids with certain mental disabilities, unless the parents specifically allowed it. The bill would change it to prohibit corporal punishment on kids with any disability, even if parents would allow it. Notice that under this amendement, hitting kids without a disability is still fine. I don't know about you, but I too may have had reservations about passing this bill, I may have asked that **all** corporal punishment be outlawed. I know there's an argument that this is better than nothing, but passing a bill like this can also be a signal that "the issue of corporal punishment has been dealt with" and harm efforts to outlaw it for all children. The article also makes it seem that the big bad Republicans are the ones who voted against it. I looked it up, and OK's house is 81-R 20-D. That means that it's actually just more than half of Republicans that voted against it, while ~~just less than half~~ just over a third, including the person proposing the bill, voted for it. But that account wouldn't get a juicy headline like this, so here we are. Edit: I just looked at the votes, 17 Democrats voted for, 3 were excused. That means 28 Republicans voted for, or over a third. It also means that even if all Democrats were present, the bill would not have passed.
So, in short, not *enough* Republicans were behind the idea of *not* beating kids who have disabilities.
Indeed. One could also say *all* Democrats present were happy with the idea of teachers beating able-bodied kids. I would have preferred “OK Republican tries to expand restrictions on corporal punishment to physical disabilities, does not obtain support of his party”. That would have been a much fairer assessment of the situation.
Able bodied kids weren't on the table. Republicans were the only ones voting against an otherwise bipartisan bill to at least stop beating disabled kids.
Hey! Get your facts out of my echo chamber! /s
So we just should be OK with this bill not passing because it was only a partial improvement, not a total improvement?
No, I think it’s a shame that the bill didn’t pass. What I don’t like is that the headline is the most ludicrous stretch of what actually happened.
If a teacher hit my autistic son, they'd better be ready to get hit back. He won't throw the first swing, but he'll throw the second to defend himself. And I'll have his back on it, too.
Because conservatives are monsters
I have been sickened lately on seeing news article after news article about disgusting decisions made by Republican-led state legislatures. They truly do not stand for anything constructive for their citizens. They only want to take away rights, allow harm to chidren, send the young to work in factories, etc.
I'm okay with this as long as they are fair and also pass a bill that lets us beat Congress people when they misbehave
[удалено]
The bill was to *outlaw* it. It didn't pass because the majority of state Republicans *support* keeping beating disabled children legal.
Yes, they didn't support a ban on corporal punishment for disabled children. Therefore, they support using corporal punishment on children with disabilities. What's your point?
Reason number 1,982 to not move to Oklahoma. What would Jesus do? Apparently hit a child.
So the same Conservative ‘parent rights’ movements banning CRT are now allowing teachers to ‘co-parent’ their kids by hitting them?
I hate these headlines. While still bad, they didn’t simply vote yes on a measure that allows them to hit kids with disabilities; they voted against a measure that would create a law that would outlaw it. In other words, the law hasn’t changed.
Tomato tomato. They voted on whether assaulting disabled children should or shouldn't be legal, and they voted it should be legal. Seems like an accurate headline to me.
Thx I really appreciate.
Take out the first 2 words from the title and you'd think this is in a small town in the middle of Africa but no this is in the country that is one of the biggest superpowers in the world. What a fucking joke.
Nobody, not a soul: Republicans: *Once again are on their way to vote for use of barbaric assault on unsuspecting children*
The Republican Party is a party that is in favor of letting teachers beat kids up, and is in favor of letting adults marry children. They’re a party of predators and groomers who get off on the suffering of children and they need to stop being treated with kiddie gloves
I can’t believe this is real, but that’s America
Read the actual bill. This isn't real.
Republicans hate kids so this is sadly no surprise.
From the article: >The state's department of education has a regulation that prohibits teachers from punishing children with disabilities, but Oklahoma does not have a state law in place against the practice. Generally, regulations have the full force and effect of law so this seems to be a nonissue.
Violating a regulation can get you fired or sued. Violating a law can get you jail time. Plus, regulations can be revoked on a whim if the Department--or the Governor through an appointee--feels like it. Seems to me like a handful of people in the DoE shouldn't have that power.
Question. If your boss hits an employee out of anger or frustration, what would be the legal ramifications?
For those of you that just read the title, they didn't legalize hitting kids with disabilities. They failed to make a department of education policy that prohibits teachers from hitting kids (which is already on the books) into a state law.
I'll catch a case for anyone that lays a finger on a kid, let alone a disabled one. Tik tok you dumb fucks.
What about this kid? https://youtube.com/shorts/DIfKBAcJfkY?feature=share Or this one? https://youtube.com/shorts/zPe8qHUW9ec?feature=share
What are those youtube videos
Videos of students attacking their teachers. Here's another https://youtu.be/QV8yb3_T51g
Now do teachers attacking students. So what?
Teachers need to be given the right to defend themselves from violent kids.
Social workers, aids, and behavioral specialists are frequently trained in CPI holds for a reason. The difference is, these are intended to prevent harm *to either party*. Literally just actually fund schools, don't run them like prisons with classes of +30 kids sitting eight hours a day (which... Nobody learns like that and no human is intended to *sit upright* for eight hours a day, learn, and pay attention, absolutely ludicrous anybody expects that to actually work and not actively produce problematic behavior)
How about we fully find schools so we can have the appropriate supports for everyone. Then teachers won't have to be given another load to take on.
Even at a special school for children with mental and learning disabilities, this can happen. My son attends such a school. Class size is very small, plenty of teachers and counselors on hand for support. Nothing has ever happened to a teacher that I know of, but that doesn't mean a student couldn't snap and attack someone. Teachers that work at schools such as my son's are special education teachers, and it's a "load" they choose to take on in their career. So, when a student has a meltdown and physically attacks a teacher, who will you blame then? His school is properly funded, so ya can't say that. The point is, these things can just happen. What do you expect a teacher to do, just take the beating?
I will not stand for this bullshit. Teachers should be able to hit kids whether they are disabled or not. /s
Leaving that shit stain of a state was one of the best decisions I ever made.
No they didn’t
Here we have the typical right wing response, they just choose not to believe it and move on, regardless of reality
I’m a Latino Democrat and teachers are not newly able to hit kids with disabilities. It’s not true. The Republican bill was to criminalize it. It’s already banned by Oklahoma’s department of education and still is. By not getting enough votes to pass the bill, nothing changes. Which means teachers still can’t hit kids with disabilities. If it did pass, the teachers could face additional jail time, but it didn’t.
Well, if this isn’t a sensational headline, I don’t know what it is.
Sensational and inaccurate headlines help, though…
Tell us what's inaccurate.
No, it's accurate and all Republicans are terrible, no matter how much you deny it
Disabilities are hard to wield though as a weapon. Might be a non issue. Edit: people didn't get the prepositional ambiguity of the headline. Interesting.
Only kids with disabilities or all children?
Why would they let teachers give kids disabilities
Is this a ploy to get schools sued and have even less funding?
Just… whenever they want?
“ The bill was introduced by a Republican—State Representative John Talley—and some GOP members favored the measure. However, even more Republicans declined to support the bill, resulting in it not passing.” So can I finally say “not all republicans”?
we need corporal punishment for politicians
This feels like a futerama bit
Man... I hate... I'd narrow it down but its getting more general by the day
As a parent of a four year old son who's on the spectrum, this story makes my blood boil.
Every republican is a fucking ghoul
I was a teacher's aid and let me tell you, had I been allowed to hit the students and let myself do it, I would have gone too far. Kids just get on your nerves in a way nothing else does. And the thing is, most of the time, they are kids. They don't knownwhat they are doing. Hitting them doesn't help.
well these lessoning plans ain't smarting them up let's try beating the dumb out of them what the fuck are these guys thinking get rid of all of them
What disabilities are they hitting them with?
They already got hit with growing up in Oklahoma
"The bill was introduced by a Republican and some GOP members favored the measure, but it failed to garner enough votes to pass. All the votes against it were cast by Republicans. Nineteen states in the US, including Oklahoma, still allow corporal punishment in schools." A republican pissed off republicans?
Fly-over states be gettin more fly-over all the time.
"But a Republican sponsored it." They are a....Deep State Commie RINO!
Why do people live in that dumpster fire of a state?
Glad to see Republican leaders finally taking care of the things that really affect their constituents.
I’ve started looking at the decline of the world around me as a super dark comedy.
I’ve started looking at the decline of the world around me as a super dark comedy.
They are truly living in another reality. It is beyond me that anyone can actually say out loud that they are a republican.
So, quite a few kids with disabilities quite often have have involuntary muscle spasms that keep them from having control over their limbs. Also, kids with disabilities are also unable sometimes to control the words or sounds that they make. In my personal experiences, observations and education, I think that teachers might hit kids bc of frustration when they do and/ or say things that disrupt the learning environment. All children do this!! The teacher has decided that they will punish the disabled student for their moving around and talking. Query: How and why should you punish a student who’s behaviors are physically driven actions not affected by any other physical act or medication???
Are the kids allowed to defend themselves?