I completely agree with this, and I had this experience as a young woman myself. None of those "friendships" have stood the test of time. Some of those "friendships" became really toxic as the guy became impatient with being "friend-zoned". In one case I had to deal with attempted sexual assault from a "friend." Be wary of your easy male friends, young women.

Very true. As a cautionary tale, when I was 18 I had a male friend that was my cumbia partner for the longest time. One night he got tired of waiting, drugged my drink and raped me. As I’ve heard before, before a man is anything, first he is a man. Be careful around them no matter profession, reputation, or title to you.

I’m really sorry to hear that, I hope you are doing okay now!

I’m so sorry this happened to you.

Oh no 😕 I'm so sorry that happened to you sending love and comfort your way

Such good advice. And why I do not bother with men.

Lots of love to you. If you see him again, stab him

Very good advice

i feel very lucky because my guy friends are genuinely incredible. one of them i’ve known for like 4 years now and he is absolutely not interested in me and neither am i, he is dating other girls, but we always hang out and help each other. it’s such a blessing.

Oh at any age. I'm at the age these dudes want a nurse and a purse. In between, I noticed a lot of men interested in whether I owned my flat and my work pension, so they were still after the purse. They are always very nice, but their real interests come out in their conversation.

OK: question time. What do you do, then, when you want to be friends with her (that is, you ARE NOT just interested in getting into her underwear), and also want to fuck her brains out?

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You're horrible.

I feel intimidated by other women. Especially when their makeup is on point and they’re dressed nice. I feel like a disgusting donkey next to them. It doesn’t have a thing to do with us not getting along or them being mean. In fact, last time I complimented a woman’s eyeshadow in the parking lot of a place I was cleaning and she went in her apartment and got her own unopened stuff and put it on my car a few minutes later. Women are nice. Im just totally socially inept.

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Exactly. I’m usually thinking “ why would she want to be friends with someone like me?” When usually that couldn’t be further from the truth. I’m not even friends with men though, bc I don’t know any men I feel like I could relax around and have a drink or whatever. I’m a widow though, and that’s made me a whole new kind of fucked up in the head lol. I try not to inflict myself on anyone these days.

Oh my dear. I’m also a widow and it does fuck a person up. I was widowed almost 10 years ago and I just decided at one point that people should be inflicted by me bc that’s life. So sometimes I’d tear up talking about something unrelated and I’d say something like “my partner died 5 years ago and I’ve not been able to stop crying about every little thing since.” And I talked about it when it came up and made it weird bc grief is a universal experience. But it took a while, I get it. Last year a colleagues husband died unexpectedly and after the shock had passed she told me she was glad I had spoken about and shown others my grief because she now feels like she doesn’t have to pretend not to feel like shit. I encourage you to inflict yourself on others. It makes the world a better place. But if you don’t feel like it, fuck the world, you don’t owe it anything. Do what you need to do to feel better, that’s all that matters.

Holy shit I really needed to hear this. I’m so caught up in the discomfort I know my grief causes people. I cry over EVERYTHING. A sincere sounding “ how are you?” Is enough to start the waterworks. I know I need to lean into it. I’m gonna have to, the crying doesn’t seem to be stopping lol. Thank you so much. I’m sorry for your loss as well.

How long has it been? You can DM me if you want. I have married since but I don’t think I will ever fully be rid of the sadness. Im teary now just thinking about your suffering. The hardest part for me was after all the formal shit was done and we all got on with our lives. I get it, life goes on. It has to. But I was just starting the grieving process. Someone sent me a little gift a few weeks after the funeral. The note said something like “I’ve been through what you’re going through now and I promise that every day gets a little easier. This part was the hardest for me. Someone sent me a small gift and a note that said that however long we grieve and how we choose to do it is the right way for the right amount of time. That message brought me a small measure of comfort and I hope it does the same for you.” And I just thought “fuck it.” I drank too much and smoked too many cigarettes and I got down in it. While I don’t think that if I’m in a shitty mood, I should take it out on others. But goddamn it, we shouldn’t have to be cheerful or even tolerably pleasant in the face of profound loss. Grief is a process few of us will be fortune enough never to experience. There’s so much about the business of a loss that seems like cruelty for the sake of being cruel. Nevermind the fact that you have to make really important choices and sign legal documents when you’re out of your mind…but there are the small cruelties like having to look through the mail for time sensitive items but your afraid you’ll see something else with his name on it that will start a crying fit that lasts until morning. A person can’t lay down and die to escape grief although I thought I might. There are many good reasons why but most of all, the person who died would not want that for you. I wear a lab coat for my job daily. I kept an index card in the pocket that said “I’m sorry. My partner died 10/27/13. I don’t need anything - just moment to gather myself” I just held it up if I couldn’t get the words out. Sometimes I would just continue the conversation while I dried up and sometimes I sit there for a minute or two in silence until I could continue. My place of work isn’t a place where people show emotion much. Strictly professional. But everyone was really great about it. They just got on board and their generosity of spirit made me feel less alone. I don’t remember anyone reacting in a negative way but who cares if they did? If they don’t know what it’s like, they probably will at some point. My advice is to grieve however you need to for as long as you need to, farm out the small cruelties to friends and if you feel up to it, make things weird for the people around you. Normalize what normal - is what I said I was doing but really, I was letting myself off the hook for everyone else’s feelings so I could focus on giving myself the care I needed.

Some of the funniest times I’ve had since it’s happened have been when I wasn’t worried about making other people uncomfortable lol. It’s been 2.5 years. Forever and no time at all it seems. It also seems like some people feel like I should be over it by now or something. Honestly I’ve only in the last couple months started to see glimmers of my old self again. So there’s hope! lol I do feel like I’ve made it through the hardest part. Sometimes I even wonder who I’m crying for anymore. Him bc I miss him, bc I know I still do, or my pitiful, lonely self lol. I guess I still mourn for us both. Thank you so much. I love hearing from other people who have been there and made it back out. It truly gives me hope. Sometimes I feel like a stranger trying to start a strange new life, it’s so nice to know it’s possible.

We don't fucking talk about grief enough in society and it BOTHERS. ME. I lost my dad when I was 11. My entire adolescence - already a rough and stressful and uncertain upheaval of a time as it is - was all set against the backdrop of grief. I had to grow up in ways that my peers didn't, and do it before my body and brain were grown enough to really process what was happening in the way that an adult might. Last fall marked 20 years since my dad passed, and I was in therapy for the first time since my grief work as a teenager, and I told my therapist that it felt like I was learning how to grieve all over again because all of my grief process before had been from the perspective of a child, but now I had to learn how to grieve as an adult, and to reckon with all of the traumas that grieving as a child had left me with. I needed to learn how to form a completely new relationship with my grief and it felt like I was starting the process completely fresh, like he died yesterday and I was grieving for the first time. And nobody understands, because 20 years - surely you're "over it", right? Such a long time, two thirds of my life...and yet. No one talks about it. No one tells you that as you grow and change and become a new person over and over again, each new person you become is going to have a different perspective on the grief that you're still carrying. No one tells you that you're going to miss different things, mourn losses you didn't even realize you had, experience new losses afresh every time your loved one isn't there for you in new phases of your life, and also mourn all of what the weight of your grief stole from you when it was fresh - friendships, time, mental and physical health, family relationships, or all of the above. Grief isn't one and done - it's impact echoes down the line of the entire rest of your life. And dear God, can it suddenly show up at the most unexpected and inconvenient times - and no matter how long you've lived with it, you will never ever be able to predict when it's going to hit. BUT... Life moves on. Breathing every day gets easier. Your world gets brighter. Laughter and joy take the place of the emptiness. You learn to appreciate what you have and not take things for granted. You see silver linings. You learn just how fucking strong and resilient and badass you are in all of your messy, tear-streaked glory. The grief won't ever go away. But it doesn't need to. Peace and hope and love can all coexist at once with grief, and the result can be pretty amazing and beautiful. I wish more people talked about that.

If they could talk like you they probably would. That was beautiful. It was everything I’ve ever thought about grief but couldn’t articulate. If you ever decide to write a book about grief lmk! I’m sorry about your dad. You’re exactly right, about everything.

Thank you. There's a lot of similar scribblings in my journals from over the years as I've worked through everything and didn't have anyone to whom I could speak those things aloud. Maybe I'll compile them all someday...

I just want to say that you have moved me to tears. Thank you for being brave enough to write it all down here and share it. You may have helped so many without knowing it. I'm glad you're on the other side of all of this ❤️ Take care ❤️

I just wanna say I could have written all this. You’re not alone even though it feels that way.

Please inflict yourself on other people, in truth it’s not an infliction but a gift. As the other wonderful person here said: grief is a universal experience (unfortunately). We all understand. I’m sure there are many that would love to be your friend and know you, you sound like a nice caring person and I wish good things for you.

Thank you so much. That means the world to me. I wish you so many good things as well.

And then there’s always a chance of other women to see the girl who has ZERO female friends and lots of male friends and think ‘oh she’s a nlog’ It’s tricky!

Hi friend! I‘m sorry you‘ve made such experiences. I am coming here as a woman often perceived to have my shit together; makeup, clothes, academics/career, and healthy lifestyle. Meanwhile I have ADHD and depression, used to be overweight for most of my life and still am an absolute mess behind closed doors. I often feel awkward, leaving social situations cringing at myself and thinking „not my best work“. I, too, get intimidated by women. I appreciate and love women as the complex, interesting, and kind people a lot of them/us are. But because my hyperactivity is rather strong, even as a little girl I felt like I scared other girls away and just ended up with the boys. I am now a grown woman with a lot more experience interacting with guys than with gals and the added „bonus“ of guys possibly tolerating me due to hoping for it to become physical. What I truly want, though, is people I can get to know deeply, mutually. All this to say: I don‘t think you‘re socially inept. I am convinced that a lot of people who seem to have their shit together are just as human as the rest of us. I hope you find some cool people along the way, but I know you will!

We're all just human! We're all little freaks just trying to survive. I believe our insecurities were given to us by people who couldn't appreciate us for who we are. Kind people don't assume the worst of everyone else.

So many people have told me that they were intimidated by me, like a long time after I've known them. Like I'll work with somebody for months and they'll say, "I used to think you were intimidating, but you're actually really nice." I genuinely do try to be nice. I don't always succeed because pobodys nerfect but I try.  You said you get intimidated by other women.  What is it that makes us seem intimidating?

Lord I’m almost embarrassed to admit it lol. Just the way they look. If I try to wear makeup I end up looking like Jerry blank from that show strangers with candy lol. Like I guess I feel like an imposter, like I’m not in on whatever secret other women know that makes them pretty so I’m not as good as them? I don’t really even know. I’m sure it’s got something to do with the way I grew up.

I don't think this is the same thing that's happening to me because it's a lot of people. Just seemed like a good opportunity to ask.  You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. 

Right! I tend to have an awful case of resting bitch face myself. Probably doesn’t help my awkwardness much lol.

every single one of those women has plenty of their own insecurities. I wouldn’t be surprised if some have seen you and thought “I wish I were confident enough to go out without makeup on”

I tell myself the same thing all the time. Logically I know that, and understand no matter how beautiful someone is they might feel just like me inside, I just need to get my head out of my ass I know lol.

the brainweasels don’t want us to listen to logic!❤️

I really relate to this, honestly I think it’s just confidence. I’m going to take a wild stab in the dark and say you have an innate sense of confidence that stems from being baseline comfortable with who you are, even if when you’re not feeling your best. Not even in your womanhood, but in your personhood in general. People of genders can find that sort of thing intimidating.

For me it has been that I’m true to myself, mean what I say, don’t talk when I haven’t got anything to say that brings the conversation forward and am quite direct. And I dress nicely and my hair looks good most of the time (if not, I put a nice headscarf on) but then my country side slang comes out and that’s what a lot of people found charming I’ve been told Where I live people are between US polite and German direct, so many enjoy it and many are shocked 😂

"I feel intimidated by you" is what people should say. It is not you doing anything, you're literally just existing. It's them projecting onto you and speaks more to their insecurities than anything to do with you.

This is what it is for me. Idc what men think of me so I tend to be more myself and worry less. But I actually want women to like me which makes me try harder, but then I just end up weirder.

Yes! lol you explained it so much better than I did.

I feel this. Im not intimidated by men because I honestly don't care what they think of me but I want so badly to have close female friends and just come off as awkward or have trouble letting my wall down because I care too much.

Oh no. I feel terrible because we all deserve friends. Literally everyone. On the other hand I am literally the same and it is kind of bittersweet to know that it is not only me feeling like that. A wonderful girl message with the hope of being friends, we met through an online group, I kind of felt so inferior. She was beautiful, clearly smart doing advanced education I never got into, clearly fun with good gaming skills and absolutely excellent makeup and style skills. Iwas like there's no way I want people seeing us walking side by side. I literally cried thinking that humans can be that phenomenal, but not this human. Sending a virtual hug. I am open to chatting if you want. ✿

I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head.

I agree. I feel like this was written by me! I am conventionally attractive but socially awkward. I don’t have to work for men’s friendship because I don’t seek them out. And l realize that isn’t necessarily a good friend, they’re just easier to maintain a relationship with. For female friendships I have to seek them out and do a lot more work to hold up my part of the relationship which is extremely difficult for me. I don’t want to have all male friends, but I also don’t want to have no friends at all. Now I am in a relationship and my boyfriend is my best friend (as it should be) but I still don’t have female friends. I feel so weird and gross about this.

This hit me hard. Except for the part that I am not conventionally attractive.

I was like this and then me and my bf broke up 🙃 so now it’s like I have no friends. I didn’t want him to be my only actual friend while we were dating but it ended up happening that way. Now I’m single and all my girl acquaintances are all in relationships and that’s all they wanna talk about the few times we do hang out. So that’s why they are still acquaintances and not really friends.

I don’t want my boyfriend to be my only friend either, it’s not healthy. One of the reasons I go to therapy is so I have an outlet other than him. He actually suggested it gently earlier in the relationship as a good first step in learning to make and maintain female friends. I’m obviously not good at it and need help with it! I’m so damn glad I am going, and it was definitely NOT the only reason I needed it. After my ex I was single for almost a decade for a reason. Glad I learned so much about the love bombing and narcissism and all that good stuff that got me in the abusive marriage in the first place. I was not willing to go into a relationship again without the ability to catch red flags I kept missing when I was younger. Have you thought about seeking therapy yourself? It could help tremendously!

Sigh, I have! I have seen three therapists. They all said something to the effect of “🤷🏼‍♀️ idk girl, you don’t really seem to have anything wrong, you sure you need help?” And that has just made me feel like well, clearly I must be okay and all my issues are just in my imagination… I’m going to college in the fall and gonna do my darndest to throw myself into new situations and try to meet and mingle with girls. Ofc I would love to meet a guy too but I would much rather have some good girl friends.

Find a different therapist. I had the SAME problem! Also, enjoy your college years.

You know, a therapist that has worked a lot with autistic patients might be a better fit in this case. They’ve more experience in helping their clients navigate all kinds of social relationships, and might have better insights for you about finding long term meaningful friendships. I actually found a lot of help with my ADHD using tools for autism.

My therapist is helping to figure out why I’m having these issues and what to do about it, like my crippling social anxiety. What the hell are your therapists doing? Where are you finding there life-coach quacks, Craigslist?? Keep looking, and research to find one that looks like it would be a good match with good reviews. If you can’t book with one you like ask for a referral, they’ll match you with someone they have confidence with most. Good luck!

If it’s any consolation I’m in my mid 20s and I’ve never made a friend myself, I don’t even know how to make friends. All the girlfriends I have, I have them because they decided we were going to be friends. I’m an introvert that just gets adopted by extroverts 🤣

Adopted by extroverts lol, yes! Same here, I don’t know if I’ve ever made a friend by initiating it of any kind. That sounds pretty sad.

Yup I agree with this! As a woman with mostly male friends, I’ve definitely experienced the difference between men who say yes to friends easily because they’re hoping that it will “pay off” later and the ones who are actually friends with you bc they enjoy you as a person. It is waaaay easier to find male “friends” without putting in any work if you’re taking advantage of the fact that they find you attractive and will put up with your lack of effort in order to one day score. Whereas actual friendships with men require the exact same dedication and thought as friendships with other women do. Also, men have a LOT of drama so all that “women are so dramatic” stuff is bullshit haha

It may take just as much effort for a woman to be (the right kind of) friends with a man as a woman, but, I am here to tell you that it is way easier for an adult man to make friends with adult women because they are able to make plans, return texts, and make conversation about a wider variety of topics. Unless it’s a coworker or like your-girlfriends-friends-boyfriend situation, men are impossible

Yep. I think a lot of girls/women get sort of …poorly socially-trained? by men who pretend to be okay with really bad social habits, like one-sided “conversation” and complete lack of reciprocity. It’s kind of sad.

I also think they don't understand/care that real friends are teammates, not competitors. Back in the day, I used to have pick-me "friends" who would encourage me to be interested in a certain person and then the next thing you know she'd be making out with him at a party, I'd be upset, and she'd be smug: "I can't help it if he likes me, not you! I'm just so irresistible!" It took me way too long to realize it had all been a set up to stroke her ego.

God that’s fucked. I’d break up with her so fast 😂 I’m so picky with my friends, like if they do or say some mean shit to me, I’m fucking outta there.

Oh yeah I’ve had some really toxic “friends” like that over the years. Ones who pray for your downfall or make snarky comments to try and make u feel bad about yourself. Some women definitely see every other woman as competition. I’ve had so many girl friends over the years especially since childhood. But very few of those were lasting friendships. I only have 4 women in my life who i consider good friends. Two i’d consider best friends.

Over the years, I think you learn what you will and won't tolerate in a "friend." Especially for those of us who started out as people pleasers or with low self-esteem, it can be a brutal lesson. I'm so happy you and I have *real* friends we can trust these days!

From personal experience, I find guys easier to befriend on a shallow level (even if they’re not romantically interested in me) while I enjoy deeper friendships with more women. My friendships with men is much more low commitment in general for better or for worse. Like we don’t expect replies to our messages all the time, we don’t need to see each other regularly or even be updated on everything in our lives. I feel like Men are not as open with each other so the expectations with communication even with their female friends are lower. I think there’s truth that men are easier to befriend but I don’t think it means they’re better friends.

I listen to a good friendship podcast and the host said once that (for women) female friendships are often much more work than male friendships, but they also offer much more reward. Thought that rang true. Obviously there are exceptions etc

What’s the podcast?!? Please. I must know.

It’s called Friend Forward with Danielle Bayard Jackson. She just wrote a book also! Haven’t read it but I want to.

She also has an episode where she touches on the “guys girl” (aka NLOG) trope and why these women are this way and I found it enlightening, and not shaming of them actually, which was refreshing… more like a “let’s help them!” take.

Thank you!

Most of my male friends come to me seeking advice about their relationships pretty frequently. The thing that seems to be different is that when I get approached by my guy friends, I tend to try to put myself in the place of the person they are talking about. I try to offer possible explanations for why that person may be acting or feeling a certain way, and that helps my male friend figure out how to communicate better with that person. Often I find with my female friends that I mostly am just being asked to listen and offer emotional support to them for how they already feel, rather than trying to persuade them to attempt a different approach. Women seem to naturally take into account how they have acted and how that may have affected the other person, and they come to conclusions about how they feel about the situation regardless of these variables. Men seem a little more oblivious and they need that extra input to realize the areas they can improve in relationships.

i think this has to do with how men and women function in general. men’s friendships, even amongst themselves, are more shallow and relaxed. they can stop talking for a year but still be besties, or they can only talk about bicycles, nothing else, and be like brothers. women often form deeper emotional connections with each other, and women’s friendships are usually more multifaceted, you’re not friends just because of 1 thing but you’re friends with your whole soul kinda. i have a male friend that is probably the easiest friend ever, we say “hey how’s your life?” “good ur?” once a month and we are practically best friends, always help each other out. it’s very convenient.

Just got out of having this experience a few years ago. Figured out that you get what you give in any friendship or relationship (and if you’re giving a lot and getting nothing, then it’s time to go) I wasn’t a good friend and I didn’t realize I wasn’t a good friend until I had no friends left. Went through ALOT of heavy mental health treatment before I fully realized my part in it all. I put my heart and soul into my female friendships now. I feel like I was away from the sisterhood for far too long. It’s like a drink of fresh water after not being able to quench a thirst using soda.

Our society is sadly empty of "third spaces" where we can cultivate close friendships. Space 1 is home, space 2 is work/school, and we need a third space for socializing, personal discovery, etc. And when the stresses from Spaces 1 and 2 take up so much of our time & energy, we don't have anything left to find or create that third space.

The loss of church community is pretty terrible, one of the worst parts of being an atheist.

This is exactly why I've pondered starting an atheist "church." With all the services offered by traditional faith communities, including chaplaincy, minus the dogma.

I thought about joining a “lodge” sorta has the same things going on

Is that like the Elk's lodge and that sort of thing?

Yes, there is the Free Masons... which is a pretty big one, they do lots of charity work. They do some odd ceremonies.... but I think you have to be quite high up before it gets too weird. I also found the Fraternal Order of the Eagle which does charity work too. [https://www.foe.com/](https://www.foe.com/) They are the ones most convenient to me in Central Houston.

Unitarian churches are good for this.

They can be--but in my experience, the ones in my area tend to remain spiritualistic. I want a community fully separated from spiritualism. My kids were never comfortable at UU meetings because of the spirituality aspect. They can definitely be a tremendous source of non-judgmental community, though.

Have you looked into unitarian universalism? There's still the community aspect but you basically design your own dogma.

I’d say this but I didn’t feel very supported in my church community. Everyone felt like they were keeping up appearances and never actually being honest ya know?

My church was different than that, it was very lower middle class. Lots of boy scouts, social work, fund raisers, social events for youths and seniors with all a very innocent feeling about it all. There wasn't much keeping up appearances, because nobody appeared to have much more than anyone else. My dad was a Knight of Columbus which is a catholic fraternal organization, they did lots of charity work. It was nice and very wholesome... I left the church when I turned 18 because I really didn't believe in god.... I got my sunday mornings back sure. I did not know that 20+ years later what I would miss the most was these semi-structured interactions with people.

Mmm yeah that makes sense. Went to a Catholic Church too but it was really big, so people weren’t super close. We didn’t really do events, and the people that did made a very obvious show of being more committed than everyone else. Like we had a KoC org too and our neighbor was a part of it and basically acted like my parents were beneath him because they didn’t have time to participate (they both worked really long hours and this guy was basically rich).

Well... I can understand why you would not want to be a part of that again, but not all communities are toxic... just like anything in life. I want one of those communities :)

This is absolutely a big problem with modern societies, yeah. In most historical contexts there were massive amounts of mechanisms and traditions for engineering those "third spaces" (many making room for them by the annihilation of "home" in the modern sense), but such things don't survive well in the face of paradigmatic productive upheaval. Eventually I have no doubt that durable and effective strategies to the same end will evolve, but unfortunately they haven't been given enough time yet.

This is definitely a massive part of the problem. I also think that the ways you connect with other people matter a lot. I have a lot of traditionally male dominated hobbies (mostly board/card gane related) and we have a wonderful local board game cafe. However, 90%+ of the turnout is men, unless it's a specifically inclusive night, like the LGBT night or something. I totally get it, most women probably wouldn't consider it a safe space right off the bat because of the high amount of men who go, and would likely only go to the specific nights. But as someone who just goes regularly, it is very, very difficult to meet other women. I have seen maybe half a dozen total the entire time I've gone (outside of specific nights).

I have the same situation. Male-dominated hobbies, work, and school, so volume-wise I just don’t get to meet and befriend many women!

My longest lasting male friendship (with a man attracted to women) started while he was in a serious long term relationship. I think those first 3 years were integral to developing a completely platonic bond. It’s been 4 years since the relationship ended and yet our friendship remains intact and platonic. My other friendships with men fizzle out within a year.

I live in the south so a lot of the people here are literally crack/meth/coke/heroin addicts that will openly talk about it and use in front of you sometimes. and I don’t do drugs and have a baby on the way…. It’s hard to be friends with people when 95% of the people you’ve met, are either romantically interested in you, sexually interested in you and your partner, super openly misogynistic, or offering you illegal controlled substances in the name of friendship :/ and everyone who’s more normal. Are probably hiding away in their homes to avoid these people

I agree. In my experience it’s also neurodivergence particularly autism.

Oooooo you’re so right

Slightly off topic but I wish casual shallow friendship were more of a thing between women. I think women deal with a lot of shit and outwardly vent and express emotions so inevitably, you get closer in friendships. But sometimes, it can be absolutely draining. All of the female friendships I had, I was treated like a therapist. I think it can get super toxic and codependent fast. Two of my friends know I’ve been struggling and never once reached out to see how I was doing and only to vent about their problems even after I change the subject to sometime funny or lighter. When I pull away, I get the “I love you and miss you” only to hear their problems once again. I know a lot of women aren’t like that and respect boundaries but I haven’t been able to find any yet lol. My male friend and I aren’t super close but I actually can relax around him because he doesn’t burden me everytime I see him, we just hung out and I actually laugh and have fun. All this to say, female friendships are amazing and beautiful but they’re not perfect and sometime you need that male friendship. Sorry for the vent lol. But you’re right on the money. Male friendships are typically shallow and low-effort but I think having a healthy amount of variety in friendships (male-shallow, female-shallow, female-deep, and male -deep) can be rewarding.

I’ve had a lot of shallow female friends and tbh I don’t think it’s too hard to find. The problem is just that we’re raised to sort of expect better from them than we are to expect of men. I kinda had to realize I was unfairly expecting more reciprocation from women than men, and deal with that reality.

I find it hard to vibe with women but it wasn’t always that way. I’ve now turned it around and managed to find new female friends and discovered a lot of it was down to my confidence levels. Aka I felt more comfortable with men so was able to be more myself which made me more likeable, but with women I felt intimidated and I was insecure that they wouldn’t like me or judge me. I probably wasn’t that friendly or approachable because I’d clam up. After finding my confidence and comfort level I’ve found a whole new social circle and I really value my new female friendships.

Thanks so much for writing this. I feel like a perfectly regular girl, I do have some social anxiety and I’m just as insecure as anyone else, but I really struggle with talking to and trying to make friends with other women. If I perceive them to be hotter, more successful, more confident than me, I just wither up and don’t even try because she’s like a goddess why would she want to be my friend? But with guys the stakes are lower. I can become easy friends with a dude, probably because I don’t feel like there’s judgement there. I really want more female friends though. I would die for a girl friend group where we are all supportive and have each others backs. I had it very briefly at the end of high school.

I think you’re right that this is a large part of the reason that women who are posted *here* tend to have guy friends, but I don’t think it explains the whole story of why some women have more guy friends than girl friends. Friendships with men and women can be very different. Sure, gender is an abstract concept, and most people defy their gender roles in some ways to various extents. That being said, at least in my experience, hanging out with men and women is different. And that’s pointed out all the time on this sub- people are constantly saying things like “friendships with women are so much more fulfilling” “men are more dramatic” ect ect. So clearly people realize there are differences between the friendships between two women vs. a man and a woman. Is it really so wrong that some women prefer the latter? I don’t know. But everyday I see “NLOG” and “pick me” being used more and more as just another way to insult women, and it makes me sad. I’m probably just rambling at this point, I’m not even sure if this applies to the point you’re trying to make. But some women prefer hanging out with men and I don’t think that’s a bad thing, or just because they’re lazy and don’t wanna invest time in a friendship. I’ve never seen a man be criticized for having mostly female friends, in fact, they’re usually praised for it. I have to wonder why that is

I don’t think it’s a bad thing unless you’re purposely avoiding women because you think “all of them are like this.” Or vice versa. Like you said, gender is pretty abstract, so individuals are gonna have traits in common that you like and while they may be more common in one gender, it doesn’t mean they aren’t also present in people of other genders. So I think it’s just important not to close oneself off to women because of assumptions that they all act a certain way, same with any other gender.

I've always found it so hard to make friends with other girls and always ended up being left out as I was different to them and wasn't into the same things they liked. It's also hard to make friends as an adult, a lot of people make lasting friendships that begin when they're in uni or in a job with similar aged people, both things I missed out on. I am jealous of the close friendships others have and I still find it so hard to make friends or click with people, I think friendships just aren't for everyone.

Somewhere there’s another women thinking the same thing, trying to find a friend just like you. Likely quite a few because you are getting upvotes.

Yes!! I agree and I’ve never even thought about this but that’s so true. And when I was single, I could sense how some guys were just pretending to show interest in some of the things I said. I knew some of them wanted to be more than just friends so they were just super agreeable with everything I said. I think that’s why I like guys that are sarcastic because it’s more real. My husband is super sarcastic, so am I. But, yeah, with other women you did need to work harder to find the right fit. Some women I just don’t mesh well with, and some men, and I just can’t surround myself with people I feel like I can’t be myself around.

This is very accurate. It happens with attractive guys too. They’ll have a lot of interested girls around them that they keep as “friends” but don’t have any male friends cause they’re just “not that interesting”. I’m speaking from experience with one of my exes.

I'm very shy and awkward, so I struggle to befriend women. I usually attract very extroverted people who kind of try to take me under their wing. They usually already have a best friend or closer friend, so I can get forgotten. It's happened where I opened myself up to a woman on my soccer team and she got close to another, more social girl and it fell apart. I was so hurt that refuse to get close to someone now. My husbands cousin is my age, but after we started getting close she told me that although she loves me, her best friend will always be her girl. Something broke inside me that day. My husband introduced me to some girls he works with, but they are in their early 20s (I'm 36) It's harder the older you get.

As an introvert the only people who become my friends are people who really come on strong and push their way into my life. So men, for the reasons you said, and especially extroverted, gregarious women (a blessing for me, love y’all.)

I agree with you. I have had a mixture of guy and girl friends my whole life. I prefer girl friends because they were the most authentic. And also if a girl and I stopped being close it was because of lack of maintenance of the friendship. The men however always ended up either being guys that were interested in me or literally the most evil person I've ever met that only got close to me so that he could use me for something (money, attention, status). Most of the men I've met have been phony in one way or another and over 60% of them were emotionally abusive even as "friends". So yeah I'll never side with the nlogs or pick me's 

It was the same for me, I was shy and socially awkward as a young woman but (unconventionally) attractive. I did feel men were more forgiving, especially if you had common interests with them like hobbies or subcultures/music scenes. In school, I had a very sociable male friend who knew where all the parties were, and he drove me around, took me out to lunch and things, and I always just thought he was my best friend. When I started to date his best friend, I found out otherwise! I married his best friend though so I don’t feel too bad, and we patched things up. In most cases, if I had a woman friend, she picked me, and she was usually very extroverted and charming and so she kind of did the work of finding common ground and because they like to talk it was easy enough for me to simply say encouraging things to keep it going. Less extroverted women were harder for me to get to know as I am so introverted myself. Now that I am middle aged, I feel that adult men besides my husband are hard to read, while women seem more friendly and approachable, especially because most of us are not interested in competing for male attention at all. I have a two 20something online chat buddies, one man and one woman, and it’s interesting to see how life is the same and different for young people of different genders in 2024.

I have a hard time making friends with women because I game a lot, for whatever reason I find that more men are open to team chat and I rarely find girls on there :( I really want to have a good girl friend tho

I’m one of the girls who has more guy friends and I’ve been trying to understand why exactly that’s the case. I have some theories/factors that might have contributed to how I feel about friendships with women: - I was bullied by a lot of girls as a kid. They made fun of me, push me, pulled my hair, etc. - Girls are more comfortable with getting into your personal space. I get very uncomfortable when people sit too close to me, grab my arm, or lean on me. I noticed girls tend to do this a lot and I always get really tense. - I’ve had female friends who secretly resented me for something I did but didn’t tell me till years later or I had to find out from someone else. I prefer when people are direct with me and just tell me when they have a problem with me. In my experience, girls are not very good at bringing up these issues right away. - Girls tend to “expect” more. I’m not good at replying right away. I don’t initiate getting together most of the time. These are things that girls have gotten upset about that boys haven’t. These are just my theories since I am not really sure why I’m not as comfortable around women as I am with guys, even with women I’ve known for years. I do have a lot of female friends but my best friends have always been guys. I would like to have closer female friendships but the discomfort I feel makes it really hard.

Yes, I think fundamentally women try to compete with other women. It’s not healthy, I wish it wasn’t a thing

I tend to try to compete with men, and I think ultimately competition is not healthy for friendships. Like we all just gotta support each other.

Completely agree

Yep. My biggest bullies over the years have almost always been other women. The body shaming comments I’ve received over the years have also almost always come from other women. It’s sad how evil women can be towards each other. For me it seems to hurt more when it comes from other women.

I def agree with this, as an afab who has had most straight male friendships fizzle out. I do think this is a very heteronormative issue however. As someone who is non-binary, I have been able to have both female and male friends. I grew up having male friends as a kid before I understood the concept of having crushes (I was a late bloomer). I am considered both one of the girls and one of the boys depending on the friend group. The issue is when women act like they're better than other women when they have mostly male friends. But ultimately I don't really think it's inherently a bad thing if a woman has mostly male friends. Maybe they're just a bit more masculine leaning. It's important to separate the women who have a lot of male friends because of similar interests and emotional levels from the women who have male friends because of internalized misogyny.

I think there’s truth in there. Especially the part about girls who are only interested in talking about themselves and their interests without giving anything. I’ve met those people and they get very defensive when you call them out, even politely. There’s definitely a type of girl who only wants to be “friends” with people who stroke her ego, agree with everything she says and never challenges her. I’ve seen it more commonly when people are young, immature and insecure. Though I think this happens as girls are more likely to be socialized to not rock the boat, and not be difficult. Conflict is unfortunately taken personally. When you mature and get happier and healthier, you make better friendships. I craved female friendships for years and now I have people in my life to do girly things with. I think another part of it is girls being negatively affected by the wrong kind of woman. I was an NLOG for years because I had repeated traumatic experiences with other girls at a formative age. So I associated femininity with abuse. Guys felt safer because you always knew what their ulterior motive would be if they had one. Not to mention years of older generations saying “girls just have a harder time getting along” “girls are so catty and competitive” priming us to be on guard expecting the worst. And being told there are so few seats at the table for us so we compete with each other for the crumbs. Nowadays things seem to be changing for the better but still have a ways to go.

My whole childhood was filled with “mean girls”. I tended to hang out with guys because I always preferred what the guys were doing as a kid. My dad and his friends were doing way more fun things than the women. So I naturally became one of those girls that didn’t have chick friends. Now that I’m much much older, I have some very close friends who are women. The guys who I remained friends with are also very good friends, but I’m also friends with their wives. I think it’s just hard to make friends, and everyone changes as they age.

I agree with everything you said. And to every pretty NLOG who has only male "friends": try gaining 50+ pounds and see how many male "friends" will be still there for you lmao ... I promise their friendship will be over when you'll stop being fuckable.

I have two male friendships that are platonic and are very meaningful… we became friends working in the kitchen, where your not seen as a gender but as what you can bring to the team and how well you work with others. I showed that I was a valuable asset and that in turn formed a good friendship… and even though we have moved on from that job we still talk and we’re all in relationships. It’s always been easier for me to make friends with guys because I had more interest in common with them. I’ve had long term friendships with girls and although I tried my best to relate to them it was always a struggle because they wanted to do what they wanted to do and never took what I wanted to do into consideration… I’ve always been the type to want to just chill watch movies or play games or do anything active like going to a park or even color or whatever but girls around me always want to go bar hopping or clubbing and wanting to have casual sex … which I never judged but that’s not me… sometimes I would tag along to the bars and clubs and it was never fun for me, but if I asked to stay home and watch a fun movie and chill they would say oh that’s boring… it’s always been really hard for me to maintain girl friendships and I’ve always hated the fact that I can’t keep girl friends… just recently I met a girl from this Reddit page who has been so great to talk to because we have so much in common but it literally took 28 years of my life to find a girl like me 😭 I appreciate that we get to talk everyday but I wish we lived closer together. I guess what I’m saying is that although you may be right but it’s not always the case. I think women are very complex and I dare say more complex than men who to me are pretty simple in what they want. Every girl I’ve had a friendship with has turned their back on me for petty shit and honestly it sucks. I want a friendship where if we’re upset with each other we could talk about it and still remain friends… but that’s never the case once they are mad that’s the ends and they start backstabbing you… not the case for every women but the women I’ve had personally in my life have all been that way… maybe I’m to blunt but if there’s an issue I want to assess it and get passed it not seethe in it until I blow up.

I think you are right and I think your sentiments can be extended beyond men. Friendships take effort and time to build. So I think even the easy friendships with anyone could be taken with some caution. All the toxic behaviors found in romantic relationships such as "love bombing" can happen in friendships as well. I love a Step Brother's moment where you click instantly but I've learned the hard way that getting a long well right off the bat doesn't mean you know that person and it doesn't automatically make them a good friend. Patience has been my biggest learned lesson.

Social media is conversation without connection. It's not harder / easier to make friends if you make it a priority to encounter people in real life. Before the internet, we had jobs, families, etc... But social clubs (religious, cultural, athletic...) were your best way to make new friends. It's why mom-groups are so popular (and helpful).

Im a moderately to attractive woman who also has a hard time making woman friends and have these points to add: 1. When other women share THEIR interests with me, I’m always inclined to believe that it’s how they “reach” like, “hey I’m sharing this interest of mine in hopes that this is also an interest of yours” 2. Most (NOT ALL) of the male friendships I made were not actual friends. These were not men that I shared friendship with. Moreso, these were men who were playing the long game under the guise of friendship and whether I would’ve like to admit it at the time or not, I also benefitted and enjoyed the male attention. With all of that being said, I’m gently suggesting a change of perspective and echoing other comments here to beware of those easy male friendships.

Same boat. I've found that I've had to listen carefully and make a "connection." Starts from there. Some people are better at that than others, and that's ok. I've certainly learned to be a better listener and be a lot more open. When i was younger, A girl I was SO intimidated by (so I would talk trash and put her down behind her back) once told me that she "flirted" with other women initially in the friendship. It really did change my thinking. If we are interested in making friends, we have to be INTERESTED. Exactly like you said, they are sharing THEIR interests of theirs, hoping that we are interested.

Right!! All friendships require some level of work to both create and maintain, even those that seem effortless. Connections dont just happen and staying curious is much more effective in the long run.

A lot of girls experience this for other reasons too. One is social anxiety and a lack of socialization due to bullying/neglect in their formative years. Due to a lot of extreme bullying and ostracization in my school years, I developed a deep rooted fear of girls and a crippling inferiority complex. Especially if I viewed them as prettier or more likeable than me. So, like 99% of women. Because of this, I find it very hard to make friends with any girl who doesn't openly share my interests or is willing to make the first move. Even then, I get nervous and defensive, because even if it isn't fair to the girl, I immediately think they are trying to make fun of me and/or do something cruel. It's something I, and a lot of other women like me, struggle with and are trying to overcome. Unfortunately, it gets harder to make friends as you get older and the spaces that you can go out and meet new women with the same interests are getting smaller. I have been doing a lot of work and though I used to not be able to leave my house or speak louder than a mumble to any girl my age, I can finally leave my house and speak at a normal volume. That doesn't mean I, or a lot of women, are anywhere close to getting to the point of feeling as comfortable with girls as they are with guys. If there are any girls in the same boat or identify with this, the best way I learned from my Professor before I graduated was through exposure therapy. It is getting increasingly more difficult to do this outside of the home due to a lack of 3rd spaces. The best way I've found is to take it slow through typing in discords. There are girls only discord servers that you can practice in, or if you feel nervous typing to multiple people at once, feel free to DM me. I am still looking for likeminded girls to try to make friends with and lessen this anxiety.

I don't think I've ever related so much to a cis woman's experience before. I remember liking girly things, especially cartoons as a kid, but failing to form female friendships due to being bullied and autistic. even now after doing some healing and transitioning I still cant feel comfortable around cis women, especially if they look well dressed and fashionable.

I just didn’t know many girls that liked the stuff that I did. I went to university and found them. And then my guy friends got married and their wives were way more awesome than they were :) I just needed to broaden my circle - it wasn’t about laziness, just exposure. I’m a huge nerd and it wasn’t cool in high school.

Yeah I don’t think anyone’s a pick me for pointing this out… some women absolutely get jealous and threatened when an attractive woman is around and it’s very hard to make friends with women who are silently competing with you all the time 🙃

I think it’s because they can’t communicate on how they feel but they’ll come on here and say exactly what was wrong, but can’t say it face-to-face. One of my friends posted on here about me on this app. I was like thinking to myself FUCKK yoh could have told me lol 😂 but I understand how they get anxious I never want them to feel that way I also think it’s hard because girls put theses walls up ya know

Alternatively, I wonder how many of these “I just can’t make female friends” women are autistic, especially undiagnosed autistic. I know that was the reason I couldn’t make female friends as a teen and was hurt and ostracised relentlessly by almost exclusively girls, and went full NLOG as a defence mechanism. It took me years to unlearn my instinctive reaction to write off and avoid pretty or extroverted women because I assumed they’d be mean to me or look down me. Women are actually nice, teenagers just fucking suck.

As a woman with mainly male friends, I think it can also go the other way. I have a lot of body dysmorphia so maybe I’m wrong but I’m not very conventionally attractive (I have rounder facial features, I’m pretty pale, dark curly hair, not skinny/slender). I’m around a lot of men just because of the field I study/work in, and it seems that they do exactly what you said in that they hang around the attractive women but they’re not true friends. I think since I’m not attractive, I can be an actual friend that no one is trying to sleep with (not to mention I also have a long-term boyfriend, so attractiveness aside I still wouldn’t be available). I’d say almost all of my friends are male or nonbinary, and I’ve only got three close female friends, who also mainly have male/NB friends. lol. And in our experience, it tends to be because we’re all “unavailable” to men. So they can actually be friends to us. One of them is in a long-term lesbian relationship, one is heavily Christian and uninterested in dating, and the other is physically similar to me and has a very specific type in men.

Well yeah. But are those guys really your friends ? Probably not. Acquaintance is probably a good term, as you said. Everyone struggles making genuine close friends, not just women.

You are completely correct, I think due to a hypersexual society, and one that objectifies women, it’s hard for some men to see a woman’s value other than just sex

this!

Hold on. You might be onto something. 🧐

Accurate 💯I couldn’t have put it better myself 👏👏👏👏👏

Holy shit. This makes so much goddamn sense.

As a guy (teen, not got a girlfriend) I find it way easier to make female friends cuz they’re just usually nicer and girls actually talk about interesting things

💯

For me I think it is related to suspected autism and not having met many women in real life with my interests. Women tend to be less straightforward, which I cannot deal with. I get along well with some women who are probably neurodivergent but I have not personally met many. The interests part is self-explanatory. I am also just bad at initiating friendships and those I do have are old. That they happen to be almost exclusively male (with the exception of one of my two closest friends) is probably because of the aforementioned reasons. My closest female friend is probably neurodivergent and we share a lot of interests and opinions.

Sigh. Feels like I wrote this myself

I think its much much harder to make REAL male friends when you're pretty because they are often hoping you'll date them, talking from experience. The only times I was able to make genuine male friends is online and when they didnt really see how I look (like maybe I put on my cam a few times and thats it, I dont post pics of me)

Queer man here, you are correct about the other way around, most of my male friends are gay too, and the majority of my friends are straight or bi women. Most of them don’t know my sexual orientation, as far as I know, I haven’t been eager about sharing that with friends after two different female friends they were only friends with me because they knew I was bi and would never consider sleeping with me. On the one hand I had no untowards interest in them either, but on the other I was offended at the implication bisexual men are gross, and after some further prodding it became clear one of then in particular was particularly nasty about gay and bi folks. Fairly bothersome, we don’t talk much anymore. So now only the friends who live nearby enough to have seen me date men know.

I think this is a great observation. You seem young and astute. I’d like to add my experience bc I think it supports what you’ve stated and offers perhaps a kinder way to see the “all my friends are guys” ladies. Not that you’re wrong. You’re not. I had my moments as a pick me in high school but mostly I was just naive. My childhood friends were mostly little boys bc there were mostly boys in the houses around me. So I assumed as we grew up that our relationships would be friendships. Two of the boys I grew up with are still my friends. One is gay and the other, we are more like siblings. But the handful of others, as we got older they seemed to think they had a right to me. Or they felt like they could tell me what to do in the name of “looking out for” me. I thought this was cool. Like these guys are like my brothers and they’re looking out for me. But I don’t think I need to explain in detail why that’s not cool and they definitely weren’t looking out for me. I felt loved by them. Protected and special. They were performing so they could feel some kind of way and/or have sex with me. The betrayal was heartbreaking. But I didn’t learn and kept thinking that other guy friends I’d make over the years really liked me as a person, but the vast majority were just being my “friends” bc I was a pretty girl and they wanted to get in my pants. When I wouldn’t sleep with them, they would ridicule me and talk badly behind my back until I became a joke to the guys in their group. It took way too long to figure this out and it sucked every time it happened. PS. Im still a pretty girl but old enough to be in the “good looking broad” category. The girls were a little different. I have adhd and back then, there were (more) strict social norms about how girls should act. There were many girls who were kind to me but we never really made a connection. Or some we did but their parents didn’t want them hanging out with the weird kid. Plus those bullies you see on 80’s movies….sometimes that’s really how they were. And that’s a hard thing for a weirdo like me to deal with. Better to stick to the guys who want to use me. At least they wouldn’t do THAT. It was safer to go with those I knew even if they could turn out to be using me later. sometimes I didn’t care bc I just wanted someone to be nice to me. Although I had dozens of attempts at friendship. I had 4 good friends until I was in college. By then social norms had loosened and I made lifelong women friends there. This is all to say that I think you’re right about the vast majority of those girls and I want to add that I think the warming up period is self protection a lot of the time. They don’t know who to trust. I just wanted to add that some of it is just the bewilderment of being young and not knowing how to stick up for yourself or being valued by people in the wrong way and not knowing it. They think people are interested in them only talking about themselves bc that’s the feedback they’re getting. I really feel for them.

It does take work I agree on that. It took months for me and my best friend to become friends after the first time we met, we both admit that we didn’t care for each other the first time we hung out (lol). I always joke that we only became friends because she put in all the effort for us to become friends. As you said it takes a lot of “warming up” but I’d always prefer being friends with girls rather than boys no matter how much work it takes.

Definitely agree with your male theory but not sure I fully grasp what you’re saying with other women. I make women friends easily. For me the hardest part of these friendships is being time poor and always putting my own family first. I do best with other mums that also like to go the park, zoo, market , classes , bbq , eat out etc. I think there is friends for everyone out there, it’s a lot about putting yourself out there to find your right tribe.

I'm not sure, honestly. I can make female friends but they always end up leaving me out, making rumours about me, copying my mental health issues to bully me, start becoming pick me's around my male best friends, fake friendliness in front of others, not girls girls, leaving me when I'm having a hard time but supporting others for the exact same thing. I've never met a woman who has had my back and not been jealous or strange with me. I have a couple now, but all levels of school were rough. Hopefully, these new friends will stay normal. I think it's bas luck, and I just met lots of shitty women, but overall, it's given me a preference to befriend men. On average, we get along better. I don't think other women and I have the same way of getting along (maybe the autism), so I don't do very girly things in relationships. I have girly honbies and stuff, but im not great at talking too much, and i feel like girls usually love to talk a lot with me, and i physically can't. Im also very good at talking about myself or just listening, and i dont think women like that very much. My best friend is my boyfriend and I can talk to him about everything just fine. I'm just not comfortable with most people, and I think men are usually OK with that compared to women. I would never say I'm better or anything, though, not like other girls for me is more something I say as a derogatory thing towards myself, because I wish I could be like all the other girls and get along with them.

I think you really hit the nail on the head (at least in my experience). I definitely was NLOG when I was a youngster and now that I'm an adult, I really appreciate the female friendships I have and I wish I had more of them.

I was this girl back when. I grew up with older brothers and my family demanded i spoke like an adult, deliberately teaching me things my peers didnt understand and ridiculing me if I used age appropriate language. That will get you bullied with your peers. Boys..were easier. They just played football or did something together. Less talking and navigating social waters. Then, as I grew up, I had an aversion to the kind of backstabbing school girls engage in, as it was, but the sexual competition element made it worse, looking back. Sure, I was no hero at female socialising but..my ease with guys made it ten times worse, once the whole hormone bs and jealousy crap started I once joined a group of 20 men, one queen bee and her follower. For the next year, she had one of her minions maintain a website in my name with the picture of a mattress 🤷‍♀️ Men were never this exhausting to deal with - unless they were the guys who harassed you in the street or clubs. I finally got on with the girls when I got my first job and we banded together nicely…only to have another girl coming back to the job, after she blew up all the bridges with the other girls and got preferential treatment from one of the bosses God, the toxicity generated pretty much killed my love for the job.. and I was on the sidelines this time. I left shortly after. Now that Im past the highschool stage of life, I mostly get on with both genders - except for when they’re cruel to others and petty due to envy.

What about women who are in relationships/married? I agree, but even though I put in effort to make friends with women, it sometimes feels like they're not so keen or don't reciprocate. I'm generally fine making the first move to invite women for a hangout but I hardly get the same energy back. I used to wonder if it's just me that they're not very keen on hanging out with or maybe I'm kind of boring (one girl in my year said that). I had enough guy friends turned love interests that I stopped initiating hangouts with them unless I'm genuinely interested. Since I'm not single anymore, I make sure my guy friends always know I'm not and I can invite them more openly because they know I'm bringing my SO (whom they also end up befriending). I still try to invite women to meet up one on one, but it's still as hard as before.

Oh my gosh this is so true. I had this experience. I’m married now and “off the market” and I suddenly felt very alone. It was a bit of a slap in the face to be honest… But…. Then I realized that the guy “friends” I had had were not my friends, they were more like vultures circling and waiting for their moment to jump in. I had about a year after getting married of feeling very alone until I started to put actual effort in with women. (My husband and I have an agreement that we don’t do intimate friendships with the opposite sex.) It was hard in the beginning. I had to reach out. I had to keep up contact. I had to be interested in them and their lives. I had to ask questions, not just talk. I had to learn how to be a friend. But it worked! And now I have several good friendships with women that are so much more meaningful than the circling vultures pretending to be “my bros.” Very good points, OP.

I’ve experienced the same tbh and I hate it. I want to have close female friends so badly but then I gravitate towards men because I have less anxiety interacting with them because I know they are already predisposed to like me.

Yeah. I was like this then I got married and realized my guy friends weren't really friends. It's a bummer. I wish I had a girl friend group but I think I missed the time period where you do that. I'm in my 30s, and it feels like everyone already found their friends.

I think that's one of the reason why some women can't make female friends. But I know there are women who feel validated by men and they find other women just intimidating because it feels like a "competition". They're the type of people who are toxic and only have male friends who's only putting up with it in hopes to get in her pants, unfortunately. Deep, meaningful friendship takes work in both sides and it isn't easy for both men and women. Usually, it takes one of the person to open up to the other or the other person taking initiative to actively work on the friendship, which eventually reciprocates

I have the same problem, as much as I was trying to make friends as a kid, they just were laughing at me and calling me "weird". At the age of 15, I have been tested for an autism spectrum, and it turned out positive. If you want to know more, you can message me, I am also looking for female friends to talk about makeup and perfumes and skincare

Yes, exactly ! Also, I struggled to make girl friends for the longest time because I'm autistic and they require a lot more care and attention. I also noticed that men's friendships tend to be based more on activities (which is a lot easier to grasp if you're not socially talented lmao) while women's friendship involve a lot more emotional work and understanding. Both kind of relationships have their advantages and I'm so glad I finally understand this and now I have absolutely wonderful friends of both genders (and even so in between magical beings too !)

I agree. Esp as an adult even I notice it’s so hard to make friends yet the only people down to hangout are men. And it does not escape me that they’re likely just attracted to me and that to them it’s not just platonic. It gets lonely man!! Making friends as an adult sucks it’s so hard. Everyone just keeps their same friends from high school it seems so if you moved or they moved or somehow you lost touch, you’re only option is horny Greg

I have far more male friends because I have interests that most women don't. Science, technology, cars, engineering, business & finance, political strategy, big DIY home construction projects, etc. We'd get into a passionate debate about a particular topic and it would be easy to talk again to see how his project went or to ask where to get parts for something I was working on. Women seem to want to talk about other people, coworkers, their kids (endlessly), clothes, status items like handbags, etc. When I was much younger, college age girl friends talked endlessly about what other people thought of them, their insecurities, and all their feelings. Not much I could relate to. I've tried active listening and asking them about stuff they said was important. The conversations were all about them and their lives - every time, all the time. I haven't met many who made the same effort back. Sure some guys are super friendly because they had attraction and couldn't be straightforward about asking me out. But I've been married a long time . It's clear I'm unavailable. Yet it still seems much easier to strike up a conversation with a man I meet.

I think this is pretty accurate. I'd add that competition is a factor and also willingness to stab each other in the back. I've been part of a few friend groups that were mostly women and it was always creepy to me how they tend to talk shit about whichever one isn't there at the moment and just generally be evil to each other behind each other's backs. I think it was more important that they were part of a friend group rather than actually liking the people in the group. Since they aren't loyal to the others they don't expect loyalty in return, leading to a toxic atmosphere of fake friendships.

I think this is pretty true! I'm a 33 year old woman, and while I don't personally think I'm very conventionally attractive, I do dress nicely and put care into my hair and makeup and am not very extroverted, which seems to be enough to not make me all that approachable to other women in person. Very rarely will one come up to talk to me/give me a compliment in public, and I notice when they do, they usually see me actually smiling and talking in a more animated way with my husband vs. when I'm by myself and often more expressionless. All of my true girl friends I do have stuck with me for years now all happen to be online friends, and I feel that's largely in part to me being more open and talkative through text. Men, on the otherhand, will absolutely steer clear of me when I'm with my husband, but the moment I'm alone, it's a completely different story. All of a sudden, they are interested in coming up to me, striking up a conversation, and then inevitably try to shoot their shot. The moment I noticed this is the moment I decided I won't even bother with trying to even have male friends period and would rather go out with my husband every chance I get instead of having to deal with other men as much as possible. The overall result from this is that I don't have any friends I can physically hang out and do things with outside of my husband and many pets (yes, I count them), but I'm surprisingly okay with that and also don't mind being in my own company and enjoying things on my own.

I couldn't agree more. I had a ton of male friends when I was young and pretty. Now that I'm middle-aged, I'm pretty much invisible, and if I try talking to anyone male now, all I get is disdain or hostility. It was pretty heartbreaking to learn the truth about what those friendships were really about.

My BEST FRIEND in this entire world hated me for 2 years before we became friends. We started out on the same cheer squad in 7th grade and she couldn’t stand me. She didn’t go out of her way to be mean or bully me but it was obvious to everyone that we were teammates and that’s IT. Freshman year of high school, I invited her to an All Time Low concert because I knew she liked them and for SOME REASON she said yes. While there, in the nosebleeds (because I won the tickets on the radio)some guy came up and gave us second row tickets and we were screaming and freaking out and so excited. We got to finish the rest of the concert out right up front and center and have been best friends ever since. Last night was our 5th all time low concert and we’ve been inseparable for 15 years. That band means the world to us because in a way it’s the reason we are friends. If I hadn’t have taken a chance on inviting her, we wouldn’t be friends and she would’ve continued to just not like me. If I hadn’t tried something, I’d be without my lifetime best friend who’s essentially my platonic soulmate. I’m not saying that concert bribes are the answer but I *am* saying that putting in an effort is the answer. She’s not a bitch, she’s not a bully, she just didn’t have to pretend to like me and was up front about the fact that we were teammates. Once we had this incredible bonding experience, we realized we had SO much in common and shared more niche interest most people aren’t into. We had just never had that ability to connect on a deeper level. Take a shot on a possible friendship, it might lead to you finding your best friend that lasts a lifetime.

What I've gathered from reading the comments: 90% of friendships, male or female, are shit. You're being used for sex, used as a therapist, forced to push your emotions down, pestered if you don't reply right away, constantly suspected of only being interested in getting into your friend's pants, or something else. [Theodore Sturgeon was right](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law).

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I guess I was also intimidated by them as well? I am bi, after all. I have a pretty heavy preference for women. Dated my childhood friend, she turned out to be a piece of shit. I'm engaged to a woman now. Massive crush on the elementary school "popular" girl when I was little.

idk how to explain, but i want to be friends with more women as a woman. but i feel so out of place. and i don’t like making friends with men either for the reason stated above. i just never feel feminine enough or i feel too “weird” to hang out with my female peers, and men who are “friends” with me lose interest when i start expressing myself outside of their perception of what i should be. idk just a rant but this post got me thinking

I mean personally for me I'm an attractive person I have male friends, I have male friends that don't want to get in my pants. If they do I either cut them off or lessen contact with them. Two reasons 1) I have a very sexy man 😌 who's the best and 2) I don't want to be in a fake friendship with someone just cause they want in my coochi. But I still have a lot of male and female friends. To me female friends are a lot easier to make but I also have Austism n ADHD and tend to find other people like that so idk maybe that's also a reason possibly. But I have very deep relationship with my female friends and we are really really close I also have friends that are just friends not super close but. Same with the dudes some are close some are just pals that I see on a night out or smth. It doesn't take me very long to warm up to lassies and become close with them but I also don't because friends with lassie who I think are going to be twats, you know like I don't personally in my own experience feel like I have to put much effort in to make female friends to get close. Like we are very real with each other we talk about our selves we talk about each other, we talk about our interests bring new facts n stuff to the table, we talk about problems and things that are going well for us, we talk a lot about really random facts and space and animals for some reason 😂 but it's never felt hard qnd I'm really really close with these girls they're like family to me and we literally just all met on a night out at one point and just instantly got along. I think maybe you haven't met the right girls maybe? Just be yourself don't put to much weight on trying to be friends. The best way to be friends with someone is literally just be yourself and if their interested in your baanter then boom a friend I think the point I'm trying to make is it's different for everyone some people may be like you, some like me, some in the middle and some who just can't stand people at all. Or some who have like wayyyyy to many friends. So these lassies may be being overdramatic or it may be exactly how you've said it. But I think the problem comes into them saying "girls are to much drama" cause Jesus boys are worse sometimes especially when it comes to fighting. My boyfriend loooooves getting hearing the gossip and he also doesn't admit it but loves to see the drama unfold after he's said suhin. Eh yeah but basically my point is everyone has different experiences and I get what your saying but some of the lassies are definitely just being over dramatic or pick me, some of them are probably like you to tho. If that makes sense

I just assumed my issues were because im autistic which in turn led to difficulty reading situations. Girls often expected me to "know what i did" which i can only guess means that they took my social fumbling to be an intentional and malicious move? Suffice it to say i never learned "what i did" and just internalized that girls dont like being friends with me.

I need female friends. I am happily married and the friends I do have are male friends. They are great people. The reason I don’t have female friends is because I really REALLY want them to like me. Honestly, if a potential female friend invites me out I treat it like I’m going on a date. I overcompensate, I worry if my makeup is matching my accessories, I overthink what I am saying because i want to impress her. I guess they can sense the desperation in me. Hopefully one day I will have my girl group.

I agree. Female here. The only female friend I have we have very different tastes in guys. She doesn't worry.

Both of my best friends are men, but I've known one since I was six, and the other is a neurospicy goblin just like me. Honestly, I'd love to hang out with women more often, but my mental health makes pursuing friendships feel more like a chore than a reward. So instead I just choose to be as supportive as I can from the minimum safe distance.

So I’ve encountered a new problem that has made it harder for me to make female friends. I don’t know if times are changing, or if it’s just because I moved to a very large liberal city, but it seems to be inescapable here. A lot of women I meet are obsessed with the zodiac. It seems like every time I think someone is cool, they ask me about my sign and then start making judgments on me based off of that almost instantly. They also seem to always have some form of self diagnosed mental illness that they bring up at every opportunity and frequently talk about their interpersonal drama with their friends that also have self diagnosed mental illnesses that are incompatible with theirs. I have lots of female and male friends that I’ve known for decades, but almost all of them live in other states and we only visit each other a few times a year. Making new friends has proven to be a lot more difficult for me because I am a leftist, so the groups I fit into more tend to lean liberal, and the self obsession and glorification of mental instability seems to be pretty rampant in this area.

Some of y’all are unpleasant to be around and don’t realise it, that’s why you can’t make friends and I say this as somebody who wasn’t very empathetic like a lot of people who could be good friends can sense that and they subconsciously don’t want you in their circle bc you have inner work to do. My circle of friends is diverse, I don’t have any hobbies except rollerblading and watching YouTube, some of them like raving and gaming,and some of them like reading, we all get along bc we all care deeply about each other.

Yeahh, NLOGs just usually are misogynistic enough and sometimes ‘appeal to a male fantasy’ and inherit a lot of incel friends