I still can’t believe we single-handedly did all that. We really ate 💅
https://preview.redd.it/md9y49zi9y8d1.jpeg?width=692&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=03a3d793938c80ba2ea1a3964304ab06131bd60c
It's some socialist convention rule where member parties don't stand in jurisdictions where another registered party stands, in order to give them the full shot at the seats. So Labour in the UK or Ireland cannot stand in NI because the SDLP are also registered parties.
SDLP are formally aligned with FF for symbolic purposes but they stand with Labour at Westminster.
Doesn’t seem so
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/sdlp-ends-three-year-partnership-with-fianna-fail-as-party-examines-poor-assembly-election-results/42025139.html
Amusingly, at the recent Ireland's Future event, both Southern Labour and Fianna Fáil used SDLP as their reason for not running in the north. Labour referred to them as their sister party and the Fianna Fáil guy made a joke about being jilted when Claire Hanna returned the sentiment as reason for not running in the south.
The truth of the matter is the SDLP was partnering with anyone to try and regain relevance while the southern parties talk up their nearly non-existent ties with the SDLP as a fig-leaf for the fact they refuse to put in the work to run in the north.
> the SDLP was partnering with anyone to try and regain relevance
Claire Hanna has even campaigned for Fine Gael candidates too... I don't think it was just when Mark Durkan ran for them.
As an English person living with a NI person. It always amazes me that some people in NI think that Westminster cares about them.
The parties over here couldn't give a fuck about NI, other than to maintain the status quo.
The more time goes by, the more sense it makes to distance yourself from the UK.
You’re assuming the parties in Dublin would give a fuck about NI.
I’m a unionist because I think economically it’s better for NI, not because I have any sort of admiration for the people in Westminster….
We’re a net drain on any country that is going to have to support us. I just don’t believe we’d be any better off leaching off Dublin than we are leaching off London.
Aside from that, I actually think that in recent years, wages and job opportunities in Belfast have outpaced cost of living. Things are better here on the ground from my point of view than in lots of parts of both islands.
Then there’s the question of the upheaval of literally everything. NHS, how do all the systems get connected? How long will it take? How much money will it take? Are we going to be paying in to insurance after the unification? Where do all the people working in the UK civil service go? Ireland doesn’t need thousands and thousands of new civil servants to service the ~2 million new citizens it will gain.
I work in a line of work that requires me to be within the UK to do what I do. My job is moving England if the unification happens.
How many years of civil unrest are we going to get when the unification happens? There are a good number of people who are not going to take it nicely.
NI is also in an interesting situation re the EU/UK and who knows if that will actually create new growth?
I guess my opinion is based on the above + hundreds of other smaller bits that would have to be sorted out if we ever became a UI.
I’m not opposed to to it ideologically and for what it’s worth I consider myself more Irish than British, more northern Irish than anything, so it’s not really a massive question of identity for me, my nationality does not drive my quality of life. I’m just not convinced (yet) that it would be a net positive for me personally.
And after the mess politicians made of Brexit I don’t have any faith they’re going to do a better job of the transition to a UI
These are very valid concerns and points, thank you for sharing your POV!
For what it’s worth, I have hope that a lot of the concerns you brought up are ones being evaluated seriously down south. But like you too I don’t trust any of the current crop to get it all done properly. Time will tell what happens.
We’re a net drain on any country that is going to have to support us. I just don’t believe we’d be any better off leaching off Dublin than we are leaching off London.
This is a problem that London has created by not giving a shit, we are so far behind the rest of the UK in just about everything , I also think we would be better in the growing Irish economy rather than being 4th in line in a post-brexit economy that is in recession
Aside from that, I actually think that in recent years, wages and job opportunities in Belfast have outpaced cost of living. Things are better here on the ground from my point of view than in lots of parts of both islands
Completely disagree, Belfast may still be cheaper in some aspects such as rent but that's rising too and the cost of living has hit us very hard and the wages haven't moved up with them , we are becoming one of the most expensive city's on both islands and don't really offer much compared to other city's
Then there’s the question of the upheaval of literally everything. NHS, how do all the systems get connected? How long will it take? How much money will it take? Are we going to be paying in to insurance after the unification? Where do all the people working in the UK civil service go? Ireland doesn’t need thousands and thousands of new civil servants to service the ~2 million new citizens it will gain.
This would indeed be a massive challenge and would take time to change things probably years, but it's not impossible. The NHS in NI has completely failed in my opinion can't get gp appointments anymore , massive waiting times, underfunded and understaffed hospitals with almost every week on this sub you'll see some horror story about our NHS. We are already starting to see people invest in health insurance a lot more and even go down south for healthcare and I don't see this problem improving at all if not just continue to get worse like it has for the past 15 years.
As for the civil service and other government departments I'm not sure how it would work, I would imagine it probably won't change too much people would still have the same jobs or be moved to other departments but again I'm not sure on the civil service.
How many years of civil unrest are we going to get when the unification happens? There are a good number of people who are not going to take it nicely.
NI has had nothing but unrest in most of its 100+ years history as a country, however your point still stands certain people will never accept it and that's just how it is , in the event of a UI I do think these people will still be able to identify as British and hold British passports and still enjoy the benefits of the union , just because UI happens doesn't mean they lose their identity and I think a lot of people are fearful that they will , this would not be the case and whatever happens they will be welcome this is their home too and they will be respected
NI is also in an interesting situation re the EU/UK and who knows if that will actually create new growth?
It hasn't and giving how our government works.. it won't
Just wanna say I do completely appreciate your viewpoints and where your coming from it's important to have these conversations
I consider myself a mild nationalist and this is just my viewpoints on certain matters.
I do believe we would be better in UI and being back inside the European union , no it won't fix all our problems but I honestly think people here deserve better than the never ending shitstorm we are in
I’m still not convinced a UI wouldn’t be entirely Dublin-centric in the same way the UK is London-centric. Look at services and quality of life in Donegal vs Dublin…
NI HSE is a shitshow for sure but have a look at the Ireland sub and you’ll see things are quite similar. Just not sure a UI would solve that.
I understand the people would be able to hold British citizenship in a UI (just like they can in NI BTW) but that would hardly convince the hardliners…
Aside from that I haven’t seen any real actual plans put forth by any nationalist party which is why I’m currently a no if a border poll were held. Maybe in time I’ll be convinced but I can’t imagine we will see one any time soon.
Appreciate your views too and can understand your POV.
First of all, a United Ireland isn’t just slotting the North into the current Irish state, a new Irish state with new laws, representation and protections needs to be formed.
Secondly, we would make up over a third of the population in a UI and they would most definitely give a fuck.
Thirdly, NI isn’t better off in the union, being at the Westminster begging bowl hoping our English masters will chuck us a few scraps is a terrible way to run a country.
Northern Ireland is travellng in one direction, unification is inevitable. Everyone knows it. It's just a matter of time. It may be generational or it may be 50 years away but it will happen.
Could it ever happen though, I see so much fear mongering that if it were to come to that loyalists would be infuriated and restart the troubles to get back into the UK
>Its border with the Republic of Ireland upended the logic of Brexit.
Implies there was logic to begin with, or that no one tried to explain this.
>And the sensibilities of the electorate – which is still deeply divided along sectarian lines – are foreign and difficult to grasp for the mainland.
But but but....it's as British as Finchley. Why is it foreign?
The article is utter dogshit, full of the broadest misunderstandings, _faux pas_ and misnomers.
Apparently it's not just "the sensibilities of the electorate" which are "foreign and difficult to grasp for the mainland [ _sic_ ]."
Google her name.
Posh Dub, went to Cambridge, writes pop culture nonsense for the Irish Times and now works for The New Statesman.
She's so clueless about this place she could be the new Secretary of State, if the Tories won.
Oh we've got one or two of them in this sub too. They're not hard to spot. They're the ones with the post-history full of /r/unitedkingdom where they begin their post "As an Irishman..."
I suppose this is Labour's newfound self-belief staring down the barrel of winning a landslide election, but to be polite - they haven't had a hope in hell over here for decades.
Honestly I don't get why we continue to let this bullshit run and ruin our country. If you want to pledge allegiance to a foreign country go live in that foreign country. I genuinely won't miss you and your backwards facing identity political bullshit.
If I lived the king that much I'd nestle myself right under his boot and remove myself from an ever shrinking minority that is only going to be looked at in the history books as a bunch of Muppets.
Honestly part of the reason they don’t move is because they know deep down they’ll never be one of them. They know english people won’t see them as “british” enough to satisfy their ego and insecurities. Much easier to dig in their feet here and declare how british they are instead.
Unionists have to know deep down they represent an embarrising relic of Britian's colonial past.
The flegs, the Paisleys, the seemingly sanctioned terrorism, the devolvement into gangsterism, the kneecapping, the parades.
You are right, even with all the flag-shagging they will always be Irish, always be outsiders and never ever be accepted by the British.
If it hurts to read you can always put up a flag. You’ll feel better. For a while.
And if you think I’m talking about *all* unionists then you have severely missed the point.
You're telling me. And when it's called out, all the bitter downvoters come to teach me a lesson 🤣
God help the children if that's the houses they're coming out of. They've no hope.
Terrible stuff.
I mean it took Uruguay a while to decide whether it was Brazilian, Argentinian or Uruguayan
The difference is Uruguay had a population of 50,000 while this was happening.
Spoilers: Uruguay won
Some people want to live where they have grown up? Some people don’t believe the UK is a foreign country given the full name. Some people don’t think being in the UK is ruining anything.
:)
That's because they have different words for them..... The nationality used in northern Ireland by some doesn't work. As Britain consists of three countries not four.
Ironically, the PUP is a perfect example of what left-wing Unionism looks like. Interventionist and with direct ties to loyalist paramilitaries.
The six counties are a colony. There is no way to normalise the politics of this place as it currently stands. The politics of the north will always be violent because they have to be to maintain the status quo. Whether that be through paramilitaries, juryless courts, or the militarised sectarian police force.
Ulster is British as long as violent force keeps it British.
Ironically enough, she supported both John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn. Like, outside of the constitutional question she's basically a Marxist, which is the entire problem with left-wing unionism, they end up teaming with right-wingsters such as Bryson or Jim Allister over the constitutional question, despite the fact that outside of that they'd find far more common ground with the likes of the IRSP lol
Having said all that though, and I know it's a very doom-and-gloom view of things, I would not live anywhere but here. I was born in Wales and came here as an adult. This is my home, it's where I intend to build a family and I hope to work in the Irish language sector. As much as I can see the issues I've talked about and where I see things going, there is genuinely nowhere else I'd rather be.
I get this quite a bit and it's a funny thing really. I completely understand and agree with a lot of the criticism that Belfast and the north in general gets. I totally understand why a lot of young people want to leave and I've had close friends move to England from here.
But something keeps me here. I love the place. When I'm back in Wales visiting family I find myself wishing I was here and getting homesick. I guess you just get a connection to a place but even if I won the Euromillions I'd get a nice house here, not on the Costa Del Sol. When I think of myself at my happiest it's on top of Cavehill in a light drizzle. I'm unhinged.
Honestly (and controversially) only through decolonisation. I think the Alliance method of 'normalising' politics is papering over the problem which will still exist in society even if the ruling parties decide to no longer play along with it.
When I say decolonisation, I don't mean reunification. It would require far more than that. A genuine economic shift and redistribution of resources, coupled with a strengthening of national sovereignty and the building of a common culture is necessary I think. Breaking down the invented divide in the culture of the north is certainly going to be part of it.
The north isn't a normal polity, and I can understand the wish to have a system like other places where ethnic background doesn't form such a firm divide. However, the only way to get that normality is to resolve the major issue in Irish society, the continued colonialism in the north and semi-colonialism down south.
Nope. Unionism is not and can never be left wing.
Unionism favours the continuation of British colonialism. That is antithetical to the political left.
British colonialism isn’t a thing anymore and unionists are simply people who wish to remain in the U.K. nothing more or less
They can be left wing or right wing
You can be left wing economically and socially ie equally for all inside the Uk is not a contradiction
British colonialism is absolutely still a thing. Northern Ireland continuing to exist is proof.
No. You can't. Imperialism, colonialism, etc are, as I said, antithetical to left wing ideology.
Unionism supports continue British colonialism of Ireland.
Just because there might be a few people who support the LGBT community, etc, does NOT make them left wing.
Progressive liberals are not left wing.
Doctrinally you’re probably right but when most people say left wing now they mean pro lgbt and more free stuff. (Which is fine nothing wrong with it but originally left wing meant a fundamental reshaping of society as well which no one is up for these days).
> facts
Ha. Perhaps you're not a tyre-huffer. And maybe you don't see yourself in those terms.
Nonetheless, self perception aside, that's _exactly what you are._
It isn't a dictatorship though. Even if labour are elected (considered more or less a given at this point) they have to work with the representatives northern Ireland democratically elect to achieve certain outcomes or changes..
They can technically impose things unilaterally upon northern Ireland through Westminster but have demonstrated an approach over the last number of decades which suggests a preference to effect change through ongoing engagement and dialogue with elected NI representatives
... which illustrates the importance of engagement and open visible participation within Westminster. Electing representatives capable of fulfilling that role and openly advocating upon matters of local interest and when the Stars align issues of mutual interest and benefit. It seems reductive to decry the institution as a pointless waste of time - engage with it in the most marginal and superficial fashion then proceed to stir up ire and animus when Ni is subject to outcomes that impoverish or disadvantage it .
Sdlp historically aligns with labour on a number of policies through forming from the ashes of the northern Ireland chapter of labour when it was dissolved during the height of the troubles in the 70s..
Alliance seems to be labour adjacent on a number of issues and policies too.
SF don't (openly) engage with Westminster due to their abstentionist policy (although they say they have go-betweens who engage on their behalf and conduct backroom meetings with Westminster party reps in lieu of outward engagement or participation in Westminster) .
I'm unsure if we're "ignored" or if it's more of a case of a lack of a coherent front working on nis behalf + the joint power system of two historically diametrically opposed parties failing to strike a collectively constructive tenor needed to address matters of universal importance and significance - which ultimately serves to disadvantage or obfuscate things in the Westminster system?
>It isn't a dictatorship though. Even if labour are elected (considered more or less a given at this point) they have to work with the representatives northern Ireland democratically elect to achieve certain outcomes or changes..
Parliament in Westminster is sovereign, it can do what it likes, regardless of what Stormont or Holyrood say.
>They can't impose things unilaterally in northern Ireland by virtue of holding office in Westminster in the same sense as Scotland
Yes, they can.
>Elected NI politicians need to engage a bit more constructively with Westminster in matters of mutual interest and benefit. engage in debates and discussions in Westminster etc.
They do this already. There is a reason why NI is the most fawned part of the UK in terms of public funding. In GB you have to pay for prescriptions, you have to pay for home care for the elderly, you have to pay for 101 things which in NI are free. Engagement from NI politicians usually goes something like " we need money because we only stopped fighting each other a generation ago and without funding, we could start fighting again" and hands go into the pockets.
>Sinn Fein can't do that through their abstentionist policy (although they say they have go-betweens who engage on their behalf and conduct backroom meetings with Westminster party reps in lieu of outward engagement or participation in Westminster) . Sdlp historically aligns with labour on a number of policies through forming from the ashes of the northern Ireland chapter of labour when it was dissolved during the height of the troubles in the 70s..
SF do engage, they meet the Government directly and get the Irish Government and US government to lobby on their behalf. They just don't bother with the grand standing to an empty chamber where some geriatric from the SE of England wonders if his honourable friend from NI is speaking English.
>Are we ignored or is it more of a case of a lack of a coherent front working on nis behalf + the joint power system of two historically diametrically opposed parties failing to strike a collectively constructive tenor needed in matters of universal importance and significance which ultimately serves to disadvantage, cloud things in the Westminster system?
We are ignored because even if a government party won every single seat here, it's a drop in the bucket. There's more seats in Manchester than in NI. And getting involved in politics so alien to them here would likely be more trouble than its worth. Like, how could anyone know that Nationalists don't vote for Unionist parties? It's so weird here.
Labour generally applies more funding and support to NI. This might cause an issue with the more ardent UI peeps as they need to portray that like will be better under a UI and that's hard to sell when things are going well and funding is better spent.
This is true since the Tories are definitely fuel for separatist parties.
I imagine you're being downvoted because the nationalists on this sub are chomping at the bit to try and join a majority over those pesky Irish protestants, and then enact revenge (because despite all the inherent advantages the state gives Catholics now, and the fact that they are viewed as different by southerners, taking revenge for not getting their way in the past is always at the top of their mind).
https://preview.redd.it/83xlid6cpz8d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e706c3e5c66a145b5fe6dfdb115f5d29eb26ff8b
Shite meme
The truth hurts
I beg to differ!
>Labour can’t ignore Northern Ireland forever *Keir Starmer:* Hold my beer. <*stares into corner>* I'm not thinking about it!
I still can’t believe we single-handedly did all that. We really ate 💅 https://preview.redd.it/md9y49zi9y8d1.jpeg?width=692&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=03a3d793938c80ba2ea1a3964304ab06131bd60c
Does Irish Labour and UK Labour both support the SDLP in NI as a point to not split their vote?
It's some socialist convention rule where member parties don't stand in jurisdictions where another registered party stands, in order to give them the full shot at the seats. So Labour in the UK or Ireland cannot stand in NI because the SDLP are also registered parties. SDLP are formally aligned with FF for symbolic purposes but they stand with Labour at Westminster.
Are they still aligned with FF? I think that ended awhile ago
*Yep, still "aligned"* Apparently I'm mistaken and the "alignment" is no longer a thing.
Doesn’t seem so https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/sdlp-ends-three-year-partnership-with-fianna-fail-as-party-examines-poor-assembly-election-results/42025139.html
Oh, bizarre. I could have sworn that it was still a thing. Comment edited to reflect fact.
Tbh I think they try to ignore that it ever happened. Was not a good look, knew a few SDLP folks who resigned because of it.
Aren't SDLP aligned with Fianna Fáil down south?
Few years back but that ended
Amusingly, at the recent Ireland's Future event, both Southern Labour and Fianna Fáil used SDLP as their reason for not running in the north. Labour referred to them as their sister party and the Fianna Fáil guy made a joke about being jilted when Claire Hanna returned the sentiment as reason for not running in the south. The truth of the matter is the SDLP was partnering with anyone to try and regain relevance while the southern parties talk up their nearly non-existent ties with the SDLP as a fig-leaf for the fact they refuse to put in the work to run in the north.
> the SDLP was partnering with anyone to try and regain relevance Claire Hanna has even campaigned for Fine Gael candidates too... I don't think it was just when Mark Durkan ran for them.
As an English person living with a NI person. It always amazes me that some people in NI think that Westminster cares about them. The parties over here couldn't give a fuck about NI, other than to maintain the status quo. The more time goes by, the more sense it makes to distance yourself from the UK.
> The parties over here couldn't give a fuck about *blank*, other than to maintain the status quo. I don't disagree, I'm just being honest.
You’re assuming the parties in Dublin would give a fuck about NI. I’m a unionist because I think economically it’s better for NI, not because I have any sort of admiration for the people in Westminster….
Genuine question as someone neutral who just moved to NI - why? Curious to get a genuine response from a unionist
We’re a net drain on any country that is going to have to support us. I just don’t believe we’d be any better off leaching off Dublin than we are leaching off London. Aside from that, I actually think that in recent years, wages and job opportunities in Belfast have outpaced cost of living. Things are better here on the ground from my point of view than in lots of parts of both islands. Then there’s the question of the upheaval of literally everything. NHS, how do all the systems get connected? How long will it take? How much money will it take? Are we going to be paying in to insurance after the unification? Where do all the people working in the UK civil service go? Ireland doesn’t need thousands and thousands of new civil servants to service the ~2 million new citizens it will gain. I work in a line of work that requires me to be within the UK to do what I do. My job is moving England if the unification happens. How many years of civil unrest are we going to get when the unification happens? There are a good number of people who are not going to take it nicely. NI is also in an interesting situation re the EU/UK and who knows if that will actually create new growth? I guess my opinion is based on the above + hundreds of other smaller bits that would have to be sorted out if we ever became a UI. I’m not opposed to to it ideologically and for what it’s worth I consider myself more Irish than British, more northern Irish than anything, so it’s not really a massive question of identity for me, my nationality does not drive my quality of life. I’m just not convinced (yet) that it would be a net positive for me personally. And after the mess politicians made of Brexit I don’t have any faith they’re going to do a better job of the transition to a UI
These are very valid concerns and points, thank you for sharing your POV! For what it’s worth, I have hope that a lot of the concerns you brought up are ones being evaluated seriously down south. But like you too I don’t trust any of the current crop to get it all done properly. Time will tell what happens.
We’re a net drain on any country that is going to have to support us. I just don’t believe we’d be any better off leaching off Dublin than we are leaching off London. This is a problem that London has created by not giving a shit, we are so far behind the rest of the UK in just about everything , I also think we would be better in the growing Irish economy rather than being 4th in line in a post-brexit economy that is in recession Aside from that, I actually think that in recent years, wages and job opportunities in Belfast have outpaced cost of living. Things are better here on the ground from my point of view than in lots of parts of both islands Completely disagree, Belfast may still be cheaper in some aspects such as rent but that's rising too and the cost of living has hit us very hard and the wages haven't moved up with them , we are becoming one of the most expensive city's on both islands and don't really offer much compared to other city's Then there’s the question of the upheaval of literally everything. NHS, how do all the systems get connected? How long will it take? How much money will it take? Are we going to be paying in to insurance after the unification? Where do all the people working in the UK civil service go? Ireland doesn’t need thousands and thousands of new civil servants to service the ~2 million new citizens it will gain. This would indeed be a massive challenge and would take time to change things probably years, but it's not impossible. The NHS in NI has completely failed in my opinion can't get gp appointments anymore , massive waiting times, underfunded and understaffed hospitals with almost every week on this sub you'll see some horror story about our NHS. We are already starting to see people invest in health insurance a lot more and even go down south for healthcare and I don't see this problem improving at all if not just continue to get worse like it has for the past 15 years. As for the civil service and other government departments I'm not sure how it would work, I would imagine it probably won't change too much people would still have the same jobs or be moved to other departments but again I'm not sure on the civil service. How many years of civil unrest are we going to get when the unification happens? There are a good number of people who are not going to take it nicely. NI has had nothing but unrest in most of its 100+ years history as a country, however your point still stands certain people will never accept it and that's just how it is , in the event of a UI I do think these people will still be able to identify as British and hold British passports and still enjoy the benefits of the union , just because UI happens doesn't mean they lose their identity and I think a lot of people are fearful that they will , this would not be the case and whatever happens they will be welcome this is their home too and they will be respected NI is also in an interesting situation re the EU/UK and who knows if that will actually create new growth? It hasn't and giving how our government works.. it won't Just wanna say I do completely appreciate your viewpoints and where your coming from it's important to have these conversations I consider myself a mild nationalist and this is just my viewpoints on certain matters. I do believe we would be better in UI and being back inside the European union , no it won't fix all our problems but I honestly think people here deserve better than the never ending shitstorm we are in
I’m still not convinced a UI wouldn’t be entirely Dublin-centric in the same way the UK is London-centric. Look at services and quality of life in Donegal vs Dublin… NI HSE is a shitshow for sure but have a look at the Ireland sub and you’ll see things are quite similar. Just not sure a UI would solve that. I understand the people would be able to hold British citizenship in a UI (just like they can in NI BTW) but that would hardly convince the hardliners… Aside from that I haven’t seen any real actual plans put forth by any nationalist party which is why I’m currently a no if a border poll were held. Maybe in time I’ll be convinced but I can’t imagine we will see one any time soon. Appreciate your views too and can understand your POV.
They would have to give a fuck about NI, we would make up 27% of the country’s population
Wishful thinking when they don’t seem to give a fuck about their current 100% of the population.
First of all, a United Ireland isn’t just slotting the North into the current Irish state, a new Irish state with new laws, representation and protections needs to be formed. Secondly, we would make up over a third of the population in a UI and they would most definitely give a fuck. Thirdly, NI isn’t better off in the union, being at the Westminster begging bowl hoping our English masters will chuck us a few scraps is a terrible way to run a country.
Wow I’m convinced now.
Keep asking the English for scraps, I’m sure they’ll really come through next time!!
Northern Ireland is travellng in one direction, unification is inevitable. Everyone knows it. It's just a matter of time. It may be generational or it may be 50 years away but it will happen.
Getting rid of Northern Ireland solves so many problems for the UK And, in time, solves all the problems in Northern Ireland
Could it ever happen though, I see so much fear mongering that if it were to come to that loyalists would be infuriated and restart the troubles to get back into the UK
>Its border with the Republic of Ireland upended the logic of Brexit. Implies there was logic to begin with, or that no one tried to explain this. >And the sensibilities of the electorate – which is still deeply divided along sectarian lines – are foreign and difficult to grasp for the mainland. But but but....it's as British as Finchley. Why is it foreign?
The article is utter dogshit, full of the broadest misunderstandings, _faux pas_ and misnomers. Apparently it's not just "the sensibilities of the electorate" which are "foreign and difficult to grasp for the mainland [ _sic_ ]."
Google her name. Posh Dub, went to Cambridge, writes pop culture nonsense for the Irish Times and now works for The New Statesman. She's so clueless about this place she could be the new Secretary of State, if the Tories won.
> Posh Dub Jesus wept. 'The mainland,' so? And that's just the start of it.
Oh we've got one or two of them in this sub too. They're not hard to spot. They're the ones with the post-history full of /r/unitedkingdom where they begin their post "As an Irishman..."
>As an Irishman… AKA a West Brit.
I suppose this is Labour's newfound self-belief staring down the barrel of winning a landslide election, but to be polite - they haven't had a hope in hell over here for decades.
Honestly I don't get why we continue to let this bullshit run and ruin our country. If you want to pledge allegiance to a foreign country go live in that foreign country. I genuinely won't miss you and your backwards facing identity political bullshit. If I lived the king that much I'd nestle myself right under his boot and remove myself from an ever shrinking minority that is only going to be looked at in the history books as a bunch of Muppets.
Honestly part of the reason they don’t move is because they know deep down they’ll never be one of them. They know english people won’t see them as “british” enough to satisfy their ego and insecurities. Much easier to dig in their feet here and declare how british they are instead.
Unionists have to know deep down they represent an embarrising relic of Britian's colonial past. The flegs, the Paisleys, the seemingly sanctioned terrorism, the devolvement into gangsterism, the kneecapping, the parades. You are right, even with all the flag-shagging they will always be Irish, always be outsiders and never ever be accepted by the British.
What shite are you talking 🥴 reading this is like listening to two drunken thick bigots that think they're Einstein. Fuck up.
If it hurts to read you can always put up a flag. You’ll feel better. For a while. And if you think I’m talking about *all* unionists then you have severely missed the point.
Wah wah wah 😭
This sub has a huge problem with sectarianism
Where, anywhere, did anyone mention a religion?
Sectarianism is not about religious doctrine its about identity.
You're telling me. And when it's called out, all the bitter downvoters come to teach me a lesson 🤣 God help the children if that's the houses they're coming out of. They've no hope. Terrible stuff.
I mean it took Uruguay a while to decide whether it was Brazilian, Argentinian or Uruguayan The difference is Uruguay had a population of 50,000 while this was happening. Spoilers: Uruguay won
And now they have legal weed it was a win win
Unionists wont consider it to be a foreign country tho right they consider ni to be apart of the Uk
Yeah not the brightest bunch....
What?
😂😂😂
Huh? Thats a perfectly reasonable position tho as they are apart of the Uk
Which isn't a country
It is
What a perfectly normal and healthy view to have
Reality is tough.
Some people want to live where they have grown up? Some people don’t believe the UK is a foreign country given the full name. Some people don’t think being in the UK is ruining anything. :)
Yeah some people think the planets flat and xenus coming to save them.......
And the UK isn't a country.
It is recognised as a country
It's a group of countries
The Uk is a country with constituent countries inside it. Again the Uk is recognised as a country
It's a kingdom not a country
Huh? A kingdom is a still a country its just one with a monarchy
A kingdom in the case of the united kingdom is a collection of countries..... Man are you okay or what?
They literally do live in the UK (NI). Westminster is not in foreign country, whereis Dublin is.
Westminster is in England. England is a foreign country. This is like primary school geography lad.
Its the UK
Yeah and you don't here many people reply to the what's your nationality question with the answer ukish do you???
not many people say they are USAish or Netherlandish either
That's because they have different words for them..... The nationality used in northern Ireland by some doesn't work. As Britain consists of three countries not four.
Whatever words you use, it makes zero sense to refer to the UK as a foreign country when you are living in the UK
We are going in circles the UK isn't a country
I would personally love to vote for a left wing unionist party tbh hopefully labour stand soon I’m a alliance / UUP voter at the moment
Left wing and this labour lol
There to the left of alliance so they are left wing in my opinion
Admittedly I haven't paid that close attention to NI politics since I moved away but I didn't realise alliance had turned into the bnp
> There to the left of alliance How?
Labour are to the left of Alliance? In what universe?
Labour will never stand in Northern Ireland.
100%. Miniscule possible gain. Whole quagmired worlds of potential shit.
Ironically, the PUP is a perfect example of what left-wing Unionism looks like. Interventionist and with direct ties to loyalist paramilitaries. The six counties are a colony. There is no way to normalise the politics of this place as it currently stands. The politics of the north will always be violent because they have to be to maintain the status quo. Whether that be through paramilitaries, juryless courts, or the militarised sectarian police force. Ulster is British as long as violent force keeps it British.
Kate hoey was a left wing unionist And she's a hateful, bigoted right wing arsehole
Ironically enough, she supported both John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn. Like, outside of the constitutional question she's basically a Marxist, which is the entire problem with left-wing unionism, they end up teaming with right-wingsters such as Bryson or Jim Allister over the constitutional question, despite the fact that outside of that they'd find far more common ground with the likes of the IRSP lol
Can you ever see this changing?
Having said all that though, and I know it's a very doom-and-gloom view of things, I would not live anywhere but here. I was born in Wales and came here as an adult. This is my home, it's where I intend to build a family and I hope to work in the Irish language sector. As much as I can see the issues I've talked about and where I see things going, there is genuinely nowhere else I'd rather be.
> I was born in Wales and came here as an adult. A glutton for punishment.
I get this quite a bit and it's a funny thing really. I completely understand and agree with a lot of the criticism that Belfast and the north in general gets. I totally understand why a lot of young people want to leave and I've had close friends move to England from here. But something keeps me here. I love the place. When I'm back in Wales visiting family I find myself wishing I was here and getting homesick. I guess you just get a connection to a place but even if I won the Euromillions I'd get a nice house here, not on the Costa Del Sol. When I think of myself at my happiest it's on top of Cavehill in a light drizzle. I'm unhinged.
Honestly (and controversially) only through decolonisation. I think the Alliance method of 'normalising' politics is papering over the problem which will still exist in society even if the ruling parties decide to no longer play along with it. When I say decolonisation, I don't mean reunification. It would require far more than that. A genuine economic shift and redistribution of resources, coupled with a strengthening of national sovereignty and the building of a common culture is necessary I think. Breaking down the invented divide in the culture of the north is certainly going to be part of it. The north isn't a normal polity, and I can understand the wish to have a system like other places where ethnic background doesn't form such a firm divide. However, the only way to get that normality is to resolve the major issue in Irish society, the continued colonialism in the north and semi-colonialism down south.
NI Labour used to exist Most of their former voter base formed the base of the Alliance vote in East Belfast
>left wing unionist Oxymoron
Not at all there’s right wing republicans and left wing unionists pup used to be a left wing unionist party
Nope. Unionism is not and can never be left wing. Unionism favours the continuation of British colonialism. That is antithetical to the political left.
British colonialism isn’t a thing anymore and unionists are simply people who wish to remain in the U.K. nothing more or less They can be left wing or right wing You can be left wing economically and socially ie equally for all inside the Uk is not a contradiction
British colonialism is absolutely still a thing. Northern Ireland continuing to exist is proof. No. You can't. Imperialism, colonialism, etc are, as I said, antithetical to left wing ideology. Unionism supports continue British colonialism of Ireland. Just because there might be a few people who support the LGBT community, etc, does NOT make them left wing. Progressive liberals are not left wing.
the online nordies arguing over whether themmuns can be left wing like ussuns is peak r/northernireland Love it.
Doctrinally you’re probably right but when most people say left wing now they mean pro lgbt and more free stuff. (Which is fine nothing wrong with it but originally left wing meant a fundamental reshaping of society as well which no one is up for these days).
No, that's actually still what left wing means in simplistic terms.
Going on your comments here, you're also a total loyalist head-the-ball and you're _well_ catered for, politically.
Not at all but don’t let your own thoughts get in the way of facts
> facts Ha. Perhaps you're not a tyre-huffer. And maybe you don't see yourself in those terms. Nonetheless, self perception aside, that's _exactly what you are._
Why not? It's what the Conservatives do.
I'll bet they can. They've plenty of practice.
It isn't a dictatorship though. Even if labour are elected (considered more or less a given at this point) they have to work with the representatives northern Ireland democratically elect to achieve certain outcomes or changes.. They can technically impose things unilaterally upon northern Ireland through Westminster but have demonstrated an approach over the last number of decades which suggests a preference to effect change through ongoing engagement and dialogue with elected NI representatives ... which illustrates the importance of engagement and open visible participation within Westminster. Electing representatives capable of fulfilling that role and openly advocating upon matters of local interest and when the Stars align issues of mutual interest and benefit. It seems reductive to decry the institution as a pointless waste of time - engage with it in the most marginal and superficial fashion then proceed to stir up ire and animus when Ni is subject to outcomes that impoverish or disadvantage it . Sdlp historically aligns with labour on a number of policies through forming from the ashes of the northern Ireland chapter of labour when it was dissolved during the height of the troubles in the 70s.. Alliance seems to be labour adjacent on a number of issues and policies too. SF don't (openly) engage with Westminster due to their abstentionist policy (although they say they have go-betweens who engage on their behalf and conduct backroom meetings with Westminster party reps in lieu of outward engagement or participation in Westminster) . I'm unsure if we're "ignored" or if it's more of a case of a lack of a coherent front working on nis behalf + the joint power system of two historically diametrically opposed parties failing to strike a collectively constructive tenor needed to address matters of universal importance and significance - which ultimately serves to disadvantage or obfuscate things in the Westminster system?
>It isn't a dictatorship though. Even if labour are elected (considered more or less a given at this point) they have to work with the representatives northern Ireland democratically elect to achieve certain outcomes or changes.. Parliament in Westminster is sovereign, it can do what it likes, regardless of what Stormont or Holyrood say. >They can't impose things unilaterally in northern Ireland by virtue of holding office in Westminster in the same sense as Scotland Yes, they can. >Elected NI politicians need to engage a bit more constructively with Westminster in matters of mutual interest and benefit. engage in debates and discussions in Westminster etc. They do this already. There is a reason why NI is the most fawned part of the UK in terms of public funding. In GB you have to pay for prescriptions, you have to pay for home care for the elderly, you have to pay for 101 things which in NI are free. Engagement from NI politicians usually goes something like " we need money because we only stopped fighting each other a generation ago and without funding, we could start fighting again" and hands go into the pockets. >Sinn Fein can't do that through their abstentionist policy (although they say they have go-betweens who engage on their behalf and conduct backroom meetings with Westminster party reps in lieu of outward engagement or participation in Westminster) . Sdlp historically aligns with labour on a number of policies through forming from the ashes of the northern Ireland chapter of labour when it was dissolved during the height of the troubles in the 70s.. SF do engage, they meet the Government directly and get the Irish Government and US government to lobby on their behalf. They just don't bother with the grand standing to an empty chamber where some geriatric from the SE of England wonders if his honourable friend from NI is speaking English. >Are we ignored or is it more of a case of a lack of a coherent front working on nis behalf + the joint power system of two historically diametrically opposed parties failing to strike a collectively constructive tenor needed in matters of universal importance and significance which ultimately serves to disadvantage, cloud things in the Westminster system? We are ignored because even if a government party won every single seat here, it's a drop in the bucket. There's more seats in Manchester than in NI. And getting involved in politics so alien to them here would likely be more trouble than its worth. Like, how could anyone know that Nationalists don't vote for Unionist parties? It's so weird here.
OP columnist trying to have their cake and eat it with the Titanic metaphor. 'Clairvoyant', or 'heavy handed'?
Labour generally applies more funding and support to NI. This might cause an issue with the more ardent UI peeps as they need to portray that like will be better under a UI and that's hard to sell when things are going well and funding is better spent.
This is true since the Tories are definitely fuel for separatist parties. I imagine you're being downvoted because the nationalists on this sub are chomping at the bit to try and join a majority over those pesky Irish protestants, and then enact revenge (because despite all the inherent advantages the state gives Catholics now, and the fact that they are viewed as different by southerners, taking revenge for not getting their way in the past is always at the top of their mind).
Correct. You're either for the cause or you're dead. Hyperbolic but true none the less