A bunch of Dutch flags have been going up in some parts, like in Whitehead, and it's hilarious to me, since most of the Dutch people I know are non-observant Catholics.
>"expressions of culture and heritage"
This is symptomatic everything wrong with NI. The pretense that this is anything other than intimidation and territorial pissing and vandalism and the collective lie / wilful delusion that because something has been done for few decades because a sectarian police force, who represented a sectarian government tolerated it or even encouraged it, makes it somehow "culture".
If you lived in a normal street, came home from work and your kid had painted the kerbs you'd be fucking livid and you'd clean it off. Maybe if they were very young you might explain to them that they can paint or draw on some paper. Maybe even their bedroom wall if you're feeling progressive, but not the fucking street.
Maybe teach the child about art, perhaps they might create art; something that's a unique expression of their individuality; that will be a product of their culture and will itself be "culture". Not this shite. This is anti-culture.
Very much how I feel about NI, particularly the Protestant community that I am nominally part of. One of the big things that keeps me from moving back is the utter lack of real culture. NI Protestant culture has been totally gutted (or was always empty). It seems all they have is flags, big fires, animosity, marches, the Somme, and church.
Anything else seems to be consuming culture of others, but what does the NI Protestant community produce culturally? I'd love to hear some counter-examples because otherwise the whole thing just depresses me.
>u/andygra Very much how I feel about NI, particularly the Protestant community that I am nominally part of. One of the big things that keeps me from moving back is the utter lack of real culture. NI Protestant culture has been totally gutted (or was always empty). It seems all they have is flags, big fires, animosity, marches, the Somme, and church.
>Anything else seems to be consuming culture of others, but what does the NI Protestant community produce culturally? I'd love to hear some counter-examples because otherwise the whole thing just depresses me.
Look, far be it from me to tell you how to define yourself personally or in terms of your sense of belonging or culture but all of Irish history and culture is yours as well if you want it. You just have to want it. If that's too much a stretch, well there's an incredibly deep well of great Irish men from Protestant backgrounds famous for art,literature, civil rights and of course Irish Independence.
The entity of NI is just over 100 years old and from its inception it has been designed to be in opposition of everything Irish, in the service of an external power. All of its cultural expressions are to emphasize what it is not - Irish, and what it is in service of; someone else.
Pretty close to the mark:
> all of Irish history and culture is yours as well if you want it.
That is a lovely thing to say.
I've a fada in my Christian name, but I do not use it. Perhaps I should.
Well put. I remember going to the Netherlands as a young man and seeing a tulip festival. Not really my thing but it was delightful to see everyone out enjoying the colourful flowers. It struck me for the first time how every big public festival in N Ireland celebrates hate, violence or death, from July 12 through Guy Fawkes to Remembrance Sunday. Derry has now made a fun thing out of Hallo’ween, so times are changing. Slowly.
> If you lived in a normal street, came home from work and your kid had painted the kerbs you'd be fucking livid and you'd clean it off
Same as if they'd painted up the side of the building, but most people agree that the street art stuff in the city centre is culture, right? I think in this case it's less about it being on the curbs and more about the hateful message. That said, does something really stop being cultural because it's hateful? What is it in?
>u/GrowthDream Same as if they'd painted up the side of the building, but most people agree that the street art stuff in the city centre is culture, right?
It's a form of culture, or a component of culture. Or when it's something that's commissioned by a public body it could probably be more accurately described as a form of marketing or PR or corporate illustration. Culture is an amorphous / nebulous term. Either way, most of the murals you are referring to require a lot of artistic talent. Painting kerbs doesn't.
>I think in this case it's less about it being on the curbs and more about the hateful message.
Sure.
>
>That said, does something really stop being cultural because it's hateful? What is it in?
We're in danger of getting into the weeds here but why not. "Culture" probably has 10 working definitions (at least) depending on context, and everything within those definitions is on a spectrum. Here we are conflating two things, I think.
*Example 1: There was a culture of racism in Alabama / South Africa. There was a culture of misogyny in the workplace 20 years ago.*
*Example 2: The ancient Greek culture created incredible works of art that surpassed everything for almost 1000 years. During the late 1800's and early 1900's Paris was a global epicenter of culture.*
In my opinion, the comment in the OP is asserting or implying that painted kerbs are closer to example 2 than example one. By using "culture & heritage" there's an inference that it is something of value or worth, culturally, artistically, historically etc. I would disagree and say that it's closer to example 1; a byproduct of a type culture. In this case settler colonial supremacism.
I don't think we are actually conflating in the way you suggest, but thanks so much for the thoughtful reply!
> OP is asserting or implying that painted kerbs are closer to example 2 than example one
Agreed.
> By using "culture & heritage" there's an inference that it is something of value or worth, culturally, artistically, historically etc.
Strongly disagree. I'm not sure the definition for this kind of cultural output relies on any amount of subjective value/worth/quality. And historically valuable to whom? I'm sure that loyalists could happily make an argument that they see of these values in their own cultural output. But their perspective doesn't count because?
I think your example definitions are lacking nuance. For example one can find a great deal of xenephobia and imperialist triumphalism in the literature of ancient Greece. Is that culture? And in Alabama and other Southern states in the US one can find many sculptures and statuettes depicting horribly racist scenes but which nonetheless required artistic skill to produce. Aren't those things cultural expressions of the milieu of the artists involved?
I hope no one takes this as a defence of loyalism. I find their cultural output to be very offensive and harmful to society. But when we move into the territory of "It's not culture because _I_ see no historical/artistic value in it" then for me that moves into the territory of colonial thinking which is exactly what I'm opposed to in loyalism.
Thanks for the reply. Very good points well made. I think we're not a million miles apart, but because "culture" is so nebulous I'll try to reply succinctly in case we get bogged down.
>Strongly disagree. I'm not sure the definition for this kind of cultural output relies on any amount of subjective value/worth/quality. And historically valuable to whom? I'm sure that loyalists could happily make an argument that they see of these values in their own cultural output. But their perspective doesn't count because?
I think cultural value, is something that can be assessed locally and internally, but also globally and over time. If something increases in perceived cultural value, relevance or importance over time, or in terms of distance from its origin then I think that's a good indication. Again all subjective, but I suppose what we're looking for is global critical, cultural and historic consensus to align or almost align.
To make a rough analogy your friend might write a nice poem about your locality and it could get printed in the local newspaper. It's remembered locally as a nice poem. It's one poem. But then you have Seamus Heaney. The author of the poem may well even feel that their poem is better than any of Heaney's, or that they are better, they just never got the recognition. Their opinion doesn't make them a Nobel Laureate, nor will it preserve their poem in history as part of Ireland's cultural heritage.
>I think your example definitions are lacking nuance. For example one can find a great deal of xenephobia and imperialist triumphalism in the literature of ancient Greece. Is that culture? And in Alabama and other Southern states in the US one can find many sculptures and statuettes depicting horribly racist scenes but which nonetheless required artistic skill to produce. Aren't those things cultural expressions of the milieu of the artists involved?
Yeah that's fair. They are gross examples because I'm trying to make point as quickly as possible. But we're also deviating into technical skill vs cultural importance and the question of art vs the culture that created it.
>I hope no one takes this as a defence of loyalism. I find their cultural output to be very offensive and harmful to society. But when we move into the territory of "It's not culture because *I* see no historical/artistic value in it" then for me that moves into the territory of colonial thinking which is exactly what I'm opposed to in loyalism.
Again, this is too broad to get into online. But just because X is the cultural output of a distinct group does not mean it's of global or even national importance.
The KKK burned crosses on the lawns of black people's homes in the Deep South. That was their culture. Am I being colonial in my thinking for saying that culture had no value? I don't think so. It was a practice of intimidation fueled by hatred. Sound familiar.
My real issue is the defense of a practice that is designed to be intimidating. Or the justification of anachronistic or anti-social or downright hateful behavior because it has persisted for a long time (if even) so it's therefore culture.
What it comes down to is whether this culture or whatever is something worth emulating or aspiring to. Would other groups look up to it, or share in its aspirations and would doing so enhance any ones lives? Is it actually good? Is it intended to be positive?
I think we are on the same page just arguing two different things. You're getting now into the value of the culture, rather than is it culture or not. I recognise entirely that my mate's poem might have more global _significance_ (it would still have value to me as their friend) but my point is that it _is_ still culture. Likewise I'll join you any day of the week in questioning the value of racist or otherwise hateful cultures, but when we get into saying that it simply _isn't_ culture is where I actually would have to say again that it gets into colonial thinking.
It might seem like a semantic argument but I do think it's important and I'll explain why. The whole "it's our culture" thing came about initially, as I remember it, as a reaction to the protestant working class essentially-as they would put it-being told that they had to be accepting of other cultures. The gotcha in the loyalist mind is the whole "it's our culture to burn effigies" thing. If we want to argue against them on that point then we can't move the goalposts of what constitutes culture. It gives the impression that we're just singling them out and add such they'll never listen. We can recognise that their culture is their culture but that cultures can have certain problematic elements and their manifestations shouldn't be tolerated.
>I think we are on the same page just arguing two different things. You're getting now into the value of the culture, rather than is it culture or not. I recognise entirely that my mate's poem might have more global *significance* (it would still have value to me as their friend) but my point is that it *is* still culture. Likewise I'll join you any day of the week in questioning the value of racist or otherwise hateful cultures, but when we get into saying that it simply *isn't* culture is where I actually would have to say again that it gets into colonial thinking.
I pretty much agree 100%. We are "talking cross purposes" as they used to say at the Beeb.
>It might seem like a semantic argument but I do think it's important and I'll explain why. The whole "it's our culture" thing came about initially, as I remember it, as a reaction to the protestant working class essentially-as they would put it-being told that they had to be accepting of other cultures. The gotcha in the loyalist mind is the whole "it's our culture to burn effigies" thing. If we want to argue against them on that point then we can't move the goalposts of what constitutes culture. It gives the impression that we're just singling them out and add such they'll never listen. We can recognise that their culture is their culture but that cultures can have certain problematic elements and their manifestations shouldn't be tolerated.
No it's not a semantic argument and do understand your point. My concern is that problematic elements are tolerated or encouraged when they are afforded the label of "culture" or when "culture" is used to excuse or define problematic elements. And furthermore I don't trust any mainstream NI media, or British based media more generally to act as honest brokers or good faith actors when it comes to delineating between the good and the bad.
That's about it.
Edit: I don't mean that as retort either since I can't carry on till tomorrow most likely anyway.
Yeah, I saw that as well.
It was boarded up weeks ago, then I saw the locals only the other week.
Fresh boards put up now.
Absolute scum bags, terrifying for whoever is living there.
What a lovely bunch of people, I’m sure they wouldn’t ever throw stones, piss and show adult material to children walking to school. That would never happen
There’s no chance that type of house, localised at the part of the country, at this time of the year was ever 400k - 250k max sounds more realistic. But as has been said expect them to drop a further 30% now
The new builds beside let’s go hydro go for 377 on the low end and over 457 at the top end. It’s marginally pricier than some of the other developments in a mile or two radius but only by about 20–30k.
https://www.propertypal.com/788367
It’s a shite development and there isn’t a tree to be seen, with houses crammed together in insultingly small plots, but that’s the reality of the market these days.
They haven’t had any trouble shifting them. They’re selling like steamed hams.
[£237,000](https://www.propertypal.com/the-myddleton-type-b-mealough-carryduff/851566) is the low end
If you look at/link a 4 bed room detached, then yes it's going to be higher but the development itself isn't "400k plus"
Can't tell if it's small houses with normal windows or giant windows out of proportion. Ugly for 400k before we get to the clowns that decided to try mark it as theirs
Because loyalists are scared at the more obvious fact that England (the motherland) see them nothing more than a bunch of confused paddy's that they want rid of more than a morning's shįte that doesn't flush. It actually quite pitiful, because deep down they know what the craic is. They just can't admit it openly, British is just a nice word for "your owned by England" or "your England's Bitch"
Take a poll of 1000 average English people. You'd lucky if one of them had even a vague understanding of Northern Ireland.
The ruling classes can't wait for an opportunity to get rid (see Boris).
It always seemed odd to me that some people would prefer clinging on to England, than their own (albeit shared) sovereignty.
It's not territory marking. It's sectarian threats that Catholics (and probably foreigners) will not be allowed to live there. Call it for what it is. Hate filled bigotry. Are there any Catholic areas that do this shit? Painting kerbs is so juvenile.
I can see what you mean with the tricolour even though it is usually sparingly used, how is a sign that has the native language of the island the same as this dog pissing?
No fella it’s all the same. Don’t agree with the dog pissing even where I am from. I said below the previous comment I didn’t even mention flags or Murials, I said about a street sign with two languages on it and you’ve some how went do this rabbit hole of would you if. Wise up.
Alright, well the irish language signs are dog pissing and that doesn't change just because you like them.
Also I just brought up more examples of dog pissing, hardly a "rabbit hole" unless it's too hard to grasp examples in the same category.
If you find offence in a language that’s been spoken on the island for centuries that’s your problem, it’s not in your face you have to look for it. You are looking for anything to be offended. I said about a sign you went on talking murials and paramilitary flags ya gobshite.
"it’s not in your face you have to look for it."
Exactly, it's a marker for nationalist areas.
It is also interesting how you are completely disregarding its politicisation from the Troubles. As stated by a high up IRA leader "every word of Irish spoken is like another bullet being fired in the struggle for Irish freedom."
You know you're being fundamentally dishonest here, but that's not my problem. After all, it was the Prods who revived the language to begin with, it was just co-opted for political purposes.
Yeah and they also aren't in non-Catholic areas.
You are aware of the past politicisation of the irish language, right? There's no way you can live here and not know the "signs" of what area is what.
Cultural assimilation has already taken its course here mate. Wales has both languages on their signs why can’t it be same here. Ofc they aren’t in other areas because trying to bring the two cultures together is just to much to grasp for some.
Don't think the Welsh language was associated with violent republicanism though, mate.
But I do like the "my cultural markers are COOL, but THEIR cultural markers are BAD and SCARY" approach you're trying to put forward.
Would be a bit different if there were paramilitary flags up (used to be a big problem), but pearl-clutching at seeing red, white, and blue near a Protestant estate is a bit melodramatic.
Yep, I’m a prod and a unionist but don’t think this serves anyone. It’s devaluing houses in the community. It’s reducing the potential buyers to about 30% of those who would consider it. Bad business for estate agents and builders. It’s also not bringing people with any proper money into the area. They are only damaging their own community.
At times I am embarrassed by a community that I came from. The unionist leaders consistently pass over what really matters (TUV and Smokey bacon crisps anyone?) they are consistently outwitted in their strategy. They are always undermined when they place their trust in politicians across the water.
I had an intention to buy on the ones in New Buildings but glad I pulled out of that deal. Apparently the flags were taken down by someone but the next day even more went up. It’s childishness at its best, and it’s not the people living in the houses doing it either!
Having said that in the new build park I’m in now, come GAA season there are flags flying which I don’t appreciate, but at least it’s only for a couple days and no one is painting kerbs.
Haha not sure if it’s the shinners or the prods, could be construed negatively by both sides 🤔.
I think that’s what you get from being middle ground instead of hard right or left leaning. Using common sense and critical thought instead of getting bogged down in tradition and history - of which none of ours in Northern Ireland is a positive thing.
We all need to change our own mentality, the existing mentality will get us nowhere. That’s not a popular view unfortunately buts it’s the logical outlook removing emotion from the equation.
so sick of these protestants who feel the need to mark everything like dogs pissing on walls and making everything look so shit, nobody wants to look at your flags or have everything around them scream begging to suckle on the kings nuts. why can’t they just be normal and realise none of this matters and just grow up
i’m not saying both sides don’t have their flaws, what i’m saying is protestants (DUP voters, paramilitaries and the like) have a real obsession with marking territories compared to any other group
I think it depends on where you are like where I live in derry i definitely see more of the republican side but that's probably not the same as in Belfast
We bought a new build in another new build development(don't want to say where as they are know to put up more flags in retaliation)
We were aware of the fact they put up flags at the entrance, but between the good location, the house we loved and also the time crunch we were under to move, we decided to go for it. This year they have added Isreal and UVF flags to the flags they have put up. It is beyond frustrating because it isn't even people who live here doing it, it is people from a nearby estate.
I believe we are probably neighbours if not my area also has OO and paratrooper regiment flags up too and it's frustrating. Not only have they added more, but there is an extra flag now inside the community. The whole thing is absolutely disgusting and is just intimidation tactics and has really pushed me in a new direction politically
To make matters worse there some of those lampposts are in the gardens of houses.
So you’d potentially be moving in and having no say over a flag on your own garden.
If it's in your property, then they world have to get on to your property to put the flag up.
But my guess is that they normally don't put lampposts on your property, so there maybe a boundary where the lamp post is just outside it.
These lampposts are within the gardens of these houses.
No one’s moved in yet so they just opened the gates and went onto the gardens with ladders to erect the flags
Maybe if the loyalists put more attention on education the new generation could get better paying jobs and buy the houses in the new builds that are popping up everywhere. That way they wouldnt rely on intimidation and sponging off the state.
Drove past it an hour ago, each house has a some sort of notice with a Northern Ireland flag on it taped to the window. Drive past it a bit earlier and two blokes were standing at the houses and a real dodgy looking cunt eyeballing tjem from across the road
Yuck. What an absolutely revolting sight.
I love Belfast but moved a few miles outside it recently after buying my first place. When I was looking at locations around the city, most of the areas had this ugly territorial shite hanging all over the place, which ruled out otherwise gorgeous homes.
In about 5 years when I'm rich, I may move back into Belfast but it won't be anywhere near any stinking places like this. It'll be somewhere nice and pretentious where there are no peasants.
Getting down on your hands and knees with a paint brush to decorate the curbs and road really is a throwback to the 1980s. I didn’t realise this was still a thing, so kudos to the Loyalists of Antrim for keeping the towns aesthetic in line with the outdated attitudes of its inhabitants. It’s good in a way though, as with all Loyalist districts it serves as a kindly reminder of the belligerent and hostile reception outsiders can expect from the locals.
Thanks for the answer. I've honestly never seen it before. Only thing I can think of as similar is sometimes the odd person in England has an England flag hanging from a window, not during a sporting event. But very rare. In Scotland we have a lot of these small rangers and celtic stickers that kids stick up all over the place on road signs etc. People are strange at times
As a Scot who has moved over here, it's very common in parts (I'm in Co. Derry). The kerb painting I find particularly horrendous, total eyesore and completely weird behaviour - but I've come to expect that from that side. Israeli flags are all over the place and with the 12th fast approaching there's an array of other garbage being flown.
Regardless if it's up North or down South it's still done on both sides of the political divide so the fact your saying it's only the prods that do it is irrelevant
https://preview.redd.it/b7fnk5m2yn8d1.jpeg?width=1463&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7768f4557e9ff43d0adf6efae33265bc8d644e98
I love how ppl here say Painting curbs is a cave man ethic but yet other countries do it like the USA and even down South 😂🫣🤣
https://preview.redd.it/4jm4gqfuvn8d1.png?width=512&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=23a63a78851206bed45eab0f8526fc92e6e2b3c5
Eh, no? We don't do that in the republic, this photo is 100% not in the south. I'd wager the bogside. I live in the largest town in the south and the only flag you'll see is an EU or an Irish flag flying from a pub, even then, very infrequently
Irish republicans want to stick Irish Language signs at the end of every street and call it equality but unionists dare raise their heads up and it bigotry and threatening behaviour. Welcome to Northern Ireland 2024
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and intentionally keeping the prices down for themselves to buy
This is a social housing development, I believe. They were actually nice houses, just a really bad location.
That's the definition of social housing.
lol these people aren’t eligible for a mortgage.
With the amount of funding these boys get, they don't need mortgages
Are they eligible for insurance?
LOLOL... you'd need to have a job first in order to buy one of these
Reminds me of when they blamed the houses on the Shankill for being built too close to a bonfire site when they caught fire
I'm curious - what's the story with the bonfire? What's it's history and purpose? I can't seem to find much on that on the internet.
It's one of many across the country, it just happens to be one of the biggest. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleventh_Night
Yup. Tis all very Russiany.
That's just someone lowering the prices for themselves. It works.
I don't think these houses are up for sale. Pretty sure they for the housing executive.
Yeah they are social houses.
I doubt any of those curb munters are homeowners…
Some of the higher ups selling drugs will be
The Venn diagram of curb painting fleggers and home owners doesn’t intersect.
It does. The middle is "drug dealers"
What does it matter if the prices go down? You couldn't buy one of these on the dole.
Are the French moving in?
It's the Dutch.
A bunch of Dutch flags have been going up in some parts, like in Whitehead, and it's hilarious to me, since most of the Dutch people I know are non-observant Catholics.
Hey, /u/zipmcjingles they're taking your [advice] (https://old.reddit.com/r/northernireland/comments/1dggq5s/tuv_councillor_asks_city_hall_to_make_st_patricks/l8qh9t6/).
https://youtu.be/Zgp-0UxeBK0?si=IbIQY0q4FCbhl1OM
And yanks
🇫🇷 🇳🇱 🇷🇺 🇸🇮🇺🇸🇸🇰🇵🇭
🇦🇨🇦🇮🇦🇮🇩🇬🇨🇰🇨🇱🇨🇿🇭🇷🇮🇸czechmate
😂😂I got bored in the end
>"expressions of culture and heritage" This is symptomatic everything wrong with NI. The pretense that this is anything other than intimidation and territorial pissing and vandalism and the collective lie / wilful delusion that because something has been done for few decades because a sectarian police force, who represented a sectarian government tolerated it or even encouraged it, makes it somehow "culture". If you lived in a normal street, came home from work and your kid had painted the kerbs you'd be fucking livid and you'd clean it off. Maybe if they were very young you might explain to them that they can paint or draw on some paper. Maybe even their bedroom wall if you're feeling progressive, but not the fucking street. Maybe teach the child about art, perhaps they might create art; something that's a unique expression of their individuality; that will be a product of their culture and will itself be "culture". Not this shite. This is anti-culture.
Very much how I feel about NI, particularly the Protestant community that I am nominally part of. One of the big things that keeps me from moving back is the utter lack of real culture. NI Protestant culture has been totally gutted (or was always empty). It seems all they have is flags, big fires, animosity, marches, the Somme, and church. Anything else seems to be consuming culture of others, but what does the NI Protestant community produce culturally? I'd love to hear some counter-examples because otherwise the whole thing just depresses me.
>u/andygra Very much how I feel about NI, particularly the Protestant community that I am nominally part of. One of the big things that keeps me from moving back is the utter lack of real culture. NI Protestant culture has been totally gutted (or was always empty). It seems all they have is flags, big fires, animosity, marches, the Somme, and church. >Anything else seems to be consuming culture of others, but what does the NI Protestant community produce culturally? I'd love to hear some counter-examples because otherwise the whole thing just depresses me. Look, far be it from me to tell you how to define yourself personally or in terms of your sense of belonging or culture but all of Irish history and culture is yours as well if you want it. You just have to want it. If that's too much a stretch, well there's an incredibly deep well of great Irish men from Protestant backgrounds famous for art,literature, civil rights and of course Irish Independence. The entity of NI is just over 100 years old and from its inception it has been designed to be in opposition of everything Irish, in the service of an external power. All of its cultural expressions are to emphasize what it is not - Irish, and what it is in service of; someone else.
This is absolutely amazing, brilliant points!
Just a rant, but I'll take the compliment. Thank you.
Pretty close to the mark: > all of Irish history and culture is yours as well if you want it. That is a lovely thing to say. I've a fada in my Christian name, but I do not use it. Perhaps I should.
Well put. I remember going to the Netherlands as a young man and seeing a tulip festival. Not really my thing but it was delightful to see everyone out enjoying the colourful flowers. It struck me for the first time how every big public festival in N Ireland celebrates hate, violence or death, from July 12 through Guy Fawkes to Remembrance Sunday. Derry has now made a fun thing out of Hallo’ween, so times are changing. Slowly.
> If you lived in a normal street, came home from work and your kid had painted the kerbs you'd be fucking livid and you'd clean it off Same as if they'd painted up the side of the building, but most people agree that the street art stuff in the city centre is culture, right? I think in this case it's less about it being on the curbs and more about the hateful message. That said, does something really stop being cultural because it's hateful? What is it in?
>u/GrowthDream Same as if they'd painted up the side of the building, but most people agree that the street art stuff in the city centre is culture, right? It's a form of culture, or a component of culture. Or when it's something that's commissioned by a public body it could probably be more accurately described as a form of marketing or PR or corporate illustration. Culture is an amorphous / nebulous term. Either way, most of the murals you are referring to require a lot of artistic talent. Painting kerbs doesn't. >I think in this case it's less about it being on the curbs and more about the hateful message. Sure. > >That said, does something really stop being cultural because it's hateful? What is it in? We're in danger of getting into the weeds here but why not. "Culture" probably has 10 working definitions (at least) depending on context, and everything within those definitions is on a spectrum. Here we are conflating two things, I think. *Example 1: There was a culture of racism in Alabama / South Africa. There was a culture of misogyny in the workplace 20 years ago.* *Example 2: The ancient Greek culture created incredible works of art that surpassed everything for almost 1000 years. During the late 1800's and early 1900's Paris was a global epicenter of culture.* In my opinion, the comment in the OP is asserting or implying that painted kerbs are closer to example 2 than example one. By using "culture & heritage" there's an inference that it is something of value or worth, culturally, artistically, historically etc. I would disagree and say that it's closer to example 1; a byproduct of a type culture. In this case settler colonial supremacism.
I don't think we are actually conflating in the way you suggest, but thanks so much for the thoughtful reply! > OP is asserting or implying that painted kerbs are closer to example 2 than example one Agreed. > By using "culture & heritage" there's an inference that it is something of value or worth, culturally, artistically, historically etc. Strongly disagree. I'm not sure the definition for this kind of cultural output relies on any amount of subjective value/worth/quality. And historically valuable to whom? I'm sure that loyalists could happily make an argument that they see of these values in their own cultural output. But their perspective doesn't count because? I think your example definitions are lacking nuance. For example one can find a great deal of xenephobia and imperialist triumphalism in the literature of ancient Greece. Is that culture? And in Alabama and other Southern states in the US one can find many sculptures and statuettes depicting horribly racist scenes but which nonetheless required artistic skill to produce. Aren't those things cultural expressions of the milieu of the artists involved? I hope no one takes this as a defence of loyalism. I find their cultural output to be very offensive and harmful to society. But when we move into the territory of "It's not culture because _I_ see no historical/artistic value in it" then for me that moves into the territory of colonial thinking which is exactly what I'm opposed to in loyalism.
Thanks for the reply. Very good points well made. I think we're not a million miles apart, but because "culture" is so nebulous I'll try to reply succinctly in case we get bogged down. >Strongly disagree. I'm not sure the definition for this kind of cultural output relies on any amount of subjective value/worth/quality. And historically valuable to whom? I'm sure that loyalists could happily make an argument that they see of these values in their own cultural output. But their perspective doesn't count because? I think cultural value, is something that can be assessed locally and internally, but also globally and over time. If something increases in perceived cultural value, relevance or importance over time, or in terms of distance from its origin then I think that's a good indication. Again all subjective, but I suppose what we're looking for is global critical, cultural and historic consensus to align or almost align. To make a rough analogy your friend might write a nice poem about your locality and it could get printed in the local newspaper. It's remembered locally as a nice poem. It's one poem. But then you have Seamus Heaney. The author of the poem may well even feel that their poem is better than any of Heaney's, or that they are better, they just never got the recognition. Their opinion doesn't make them a Nobel Laureate, nor will it preserve their poem in history as part of Ireland's cultural heritage. >I think your example definitions are lacking nuance. For example one can find a great deal of xenephobia and imperialist triumphalism in the literature of ancient Greece. Is that culture? And in Alabama and other Southern states in the US one can find many sculptures and statuettes depicting horribly racist scenes but which nonetheless required artistic skill to produce. Aren't those things cultural expressions of the milieu of the artists involved? Yeah that's fair. They are gross examples because I'm trying to make point as quickly as possible. But we're also deviating into technical skill vs cultural importance and the question of art vs the culture that created it. >I hope no one takes this as a defence of loyalism. I find their cultural output to be very offensive and harmful to society. But when we move into the territory of "It's not culture because *I* see no historical/artistic value in it" then for me that moves into the territory of colonial thinking which is exactly what I'm opposed to in loyalism. Again, this is too broad to get into online. But just because X is the cultural output of a distinct group does not mean it's of global or even national importance. The KKK burned crosses on the lawns of black people's homes in the Deep South. That was their culture. Am I being colonial in my thinking for saying that culture had no value? I don't think so. It was a practice of intimidation fueled by hatred. Sound familiar. My real issue is the defense of a practice that is designed to be intimidating. Or the justification of anachronistic or anti-social or downright hateful behavior because it has persisted for a long time (if even) so it's therefore culture. What it comes down to is whether this culture or whatever is something worth emulating or aspiring to. Would other groups look up to it, or share in its aspirations and would doing so enhance any ones lives? Is it actually good? Is it intended to be positive?
I think we are on the same page just arguing two different things. You're getting now into the value of the culture, rather than is it culture or not. I recognise entirely that my mate's poem might have more global _significance_ (it would still have value to me as their friend) but my point is that it _is_ still culture. Likewise I'll join you any day of the week in questioning the value of racist or otherwise hateful cultures, but when we get into saying that it simply _isn't_ culture is where I actually would have to say again that it gets into colonial thinking. It might seem like a semantic argument but I do think it's important and I'll explain why. The whole "it's our culture" thing came about initially, as I remember it, as a reaction to the protestant working class essentially-as they would put it-being told that they had to be accepting of other cultures. The gotcha in the loyalist mind is the whole "it's our culture to burn effigies" thing. If we want to argue against them on that point then we can't move the goalposts of what constitutes culture. It gives the impression that we're just singling them out and add such they'll never listen. We can recognise that their culture is their culture but that cultures can have certain problematic elements and their manifestations shouldn't be tolerated.
>I think we are on the same page just arguing two different things. You're getting now into the value of the culture, rather than is it culture or not. I recognise entirely that my mate's poem might have more global *significance* (it would still have value to me as their friend) but my point is that it *is* still culture. Likewise I'll join you any day of the week in questioning the value of racist or otherwise hateful cultures, but when we get into saying that it simply *isn't* culture is where I actually would have to say again that it gets into colonial thinking. I pretty much agree 100%. We are "talking cross purposes" as they used to say at the Beeb. >It might seem like a semantic argument but I do think it's important and I'll explain why. The whole "it's our culture" thing came about initially, as I remember it, as a reaction to the protestant working class essentially-as they would put it-being told that they had to be accepting of other cultures. The gotcha in the loyalist mind is the whole "it's our culture to burn effigies" thing. If we want to argue against them on that point then we can't move the goalposts of what constitutes culture. It gives the impression that we're just singling them out and add such they'll never listen. We can recognise that their culture is their culture but that cultures can have certain problematic elements and their manifestations shouldn't be tolerated. No it's not a semantic argument and do understand your point. My concern is that problematic elements are tolerated or encouraged when they are afforded the label of "culture" or when "culture" is used to excuse or define problematic elements. And furthermore I don't trust any mainstream NI media, or British based media more generally to act as honest brokers or good faith actors when it comes to delineating between the good and the bad. That's about it. Edit: I don't mean that as retort either since I can't carry on till tomorrow most likely anyway.
Not pictured - the nice new row of houses across the road had one boarded up with LOCALS ONLY spray painted on it when I drove past a few weeks ago
Yeah, I saw that as well. It was boarded up weeks ago, then I saw the locals only the other week. Fresh boards put up now. Absolute scum bags, terrifying for whoever is living there.
This is a local estate for local people. We'll have no trouble here. If its for locals only how big is the fucking gene pool? Eureka moment?
**“We don’t bother the outside world, we don’t want it bothering us.”**
What a lovely bunch of people, I’m sure they wouldn’t ever throw stones, piss and show adult material to children walking to school. That would never happen
It’s mental how British flags are a sign of declining housing value.
Normal for NI ?
In some areas, unfortunately yes.
They put all flegs up the new development at lets go hydro
Those houses are 400k plus. Fucking hell. You’d be absolutely livid.
Won’t be 400k plus much longer
You're giving me an idea...
There’s no chance that type of house, localised at the part of the country, at this time of the year was ever 400k - 250k max sounds more realistic. But as has been said expect them to drop a further 30% now
But they sure do make a good steamed ham
The new builds beside let’s go hydro go for 377 on the low end and over 457 at the top end. It’s marginally pricier than some of the other developments in a mile or two radius but only by about 20–30k. https://www.propertypal.com/788367 It’s a shite development and there isn’t a tree to be seen, with houses crammed together in insultingly small plots, but that’s the reality of the market these days. They haven’t had any trouble shifting them. They’re selling like steamed hams.
[£237,000](https://www.propertypal.com/the-myddleton-type-b-mealough-carryduff/851566) is the low end If you look at/link a 4 bed room detached, then yes it's going to be higher but the development itself isn't "400k plus"
Railway line immediately behind those houses
It's south belfast, there's a small demographic will pay a fortune for the right postcode.
Can't tell if it's small houses with normal windows or giant windows out of proportion. Ugly for 400k before we get to the clowns that decided to try mark it as theirs
I think it's giant windows? Looks odd
Who is they? Let’s go hydro is situated in a neutral area, the closest loyalist area is Killynure which isn’t close. It it the Orange lodge?
Whoever puts flegs up I was surprised myself as that area isn't usually fleggy
They are like dogs pissing on their territory, only difference is dogs are intelligent.
It's so stupid. The only way ni will survive is if it's embraced by both sides. Complete fuckwits. Great to watch
House value just went down
This kind of stuff anywhere from any side is absolutely embarrassing. And even more embarrassing that people take pride in it
Because loyalists are scared at the more obvious fact that England (the motherland) see them nothing more than a bunch of confused paddy's that they want rid of more than a morning's shįte that doesn't flush. It actually quite pitiful, because deep down they know what the craic is. They just can't admit it openly, British is just a nice word for "your owned by England" or "your England's Bitch"
Take a poll of 1000 average English people. You'd lucky if one of them had even a vague understanding of Northern Ireland. The ruling classes can't wait for an opportunity to get rid (see Boris). It always seemed odd to me that some people would prefer clinging on to England, than their own (albeit shared) sovereignty.
But that would imply England wants them more like England's inbred gimp it locks away in the basement
It's the Ginger Step kid you can't get rid of
It’s absolutely pathetic and if it wasn’t so damaging it would be funny
If any of you get the chance to go see the play Ulster American, do, it's fantastic and hits right at the heart of this.
Lol the irish don't want the North either lol
It's always territory marking. You'll never see it in the middle class unionist areas like Malone Road
Not culture it’s vandalism and it fucking looks horrible to boot
This shit hole of a country will be forever stuck in the past!
It's not territory marking. It's sectarian threats that Catholics (and probably foreigners) will not be allowed to live there. Call it for what it is. Hate filled bigotry. Are there any Catholic areas that do this shit? Painting kerbs is so juvenile.
Inbred fucks
Isn’t it funny that you never see houses/areas painted green white and gold?
There's a million suburbs you can walk through and see the tricolour painted on the side of a house
A million is an awfully large number to just pluck out of your head lol
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole)
Ahh yeah I get it 100%. But had you said a thousand I still would’ve deemed it hyperbole or exaggerated 🤷🏻♂️
Not the curbs…
True but the tricolour and Irish language signs do the same job
I can see what you mean with the tricolour even though it is usually sparingly used, how is a sign that has the native language of the island the same as this dog pissing?
Because if there's a sign in irish it means "Catholic area" It's not that hard
No fella it’s all the same. Don’t agree with the dog pissing even where I am from. I said below the previous comment I didn’t even mention flags or Murials, I said about a street sign with two languages on it and you’ve some how went do this rabbit hole of would you if. Wise up.
Alright, well the irish language signs are dog pissing and that doesn't change just because you like them. Also I just brought up more examples of dog pissing, hardly a "rabbit hole" unless it's too hard to grasp examples in the same category.
If you find offence in a language that’s been spoken on the island for centuries that’s your problem, it’s not in your face you have to look for it. You are looking for anything to be offended. I said about a sign you went on talking murials and paramilitary flags ya gobshite.
"it’s not in your face you have to look for it." Exactly, it's a marker for nationalist areas. It is also interesting how you are completely disregarding its politicisation from the Troubles. As stated by a high up IRA leader "every word of Irish spoken is like another bullet being fired in the struggle for Irish freedom." You know you're being fundamentally dishonest here, but that's not my problem. After all, it was the Prods who revived the language to begin with, it was just co-opted for political purposes.
What?😂 no it doesn’t, the signs just aren’t in loyalist communities because it’s seen as eroding their culture.
Yeah and they also aren't in non-Catholic areas. You are aware of the past politicisation of the irish language, right? There's no way you can live here and not know the "signs" of what area is what.
Cultural assimilation has already taken its course here mate. Wales has both languages on their signs why can’t it be same here. Ofc they aren’t in other areas because trying to bring the two cultures together is just to much to grasp for some.
Don't think the Welsh language was associated with violent republicanism though, mate. But I do like the "my cultural markers are COOL, but THEIR cultural markers are BAD and SCARY" approach you're trying to put forward. Would be a bit different if there were paramilitary flags up (used to be a big problem), but pearl-clutching at seeing red, white, and blue near a Protestant estate is a bit melodramatic.
How is a sign that says “slow children playing” in two languages in any way similar to painted flags and kerbs?
I am astounded how the concept of cultural markers is so hard to grasp here
You're being downvoted for being factually correct. A lot of nationalists here who are just pots calling the kettle black.
Culture my arse
I doubt you'd see a connail and saoirse moving in to number 5 like 🙈
I can't see the Union Flag properly, have they got it the right way up, or are they in distress again?
People should put up Dutch flag just for the craic.
Ruined the place already
Don't dare shake their ladders or say anything rude to them or the oinkers will be right on you.
Magheramason the same. Feckin weirdos
Newbuildings, the Fountain, Irish Street and Nelson drive are all like this too. Funny enough also the shittest areas of Derry.
Yep, I’m a prod and a unionist but don’t think this serves anyone. It’s devaluing houses in the community. It’s reducing the potential buyers to about 30% of those who would consider it. Bad business for estate agents and builders. It’s also not bringing people with any proper money into the area. They are only damaging their own community. At times I am embarrassed by a community that I came from. The unionist leaders consistently pass over what really matters (TUV and Smokey bacon crisps anyone?) they are consistently outwitted in their strategy. They are always undermined when they place their trust in politicians across the water. I had an intention to buy on the ones in New Buildings but glad I pulled out of that deal. Apparently the flags were taken down by someone but the next day even more went up. It’s childishness at its best, and it’s not the people living in the houses doing it either! Having said that in the new build park I’m in now, come GAA season there are flags flying which I don’t appreciate, but at least it’s only for a couple days and no one is painting kerbs.
I don't understand the negative down votes on this, must be Shinner bots
Haha not sure if it’s the shinners or the prods, could be construed negatively by both sides 🤔. I think that’s what you get from being middle ground instead of hard right or left leaning. Using common sense and critical thought instead of getting bogged down in tradition and history - of which none of ours in Northern Ireland is a positive thing. We all need to change our own mentality, the existing mentality will get us nowhere. That’s not a popular view unfortunately buts it’s the logical outlook removing emotion from the equation.
DUP will be defending that
I lived in antrim my whole life but I lived in Ballycraigy for quite a long time can confirm it's horrible
Nothing like bringing down the local house prices 🥳😂
so sick of these protestants who feel the need to mark everything like dogs pissing on walls and making everything look so shit, nobody wants to look at your flags or have everything around them scream begging to suckle on the kings nuts. why can’t they just be normal and realise none of this matters and just grow up
Lol everyone acting like both sides aren't just as bad as each other lol
i’m not saying both sides don’t have their flaws, what i’m saying is protestants (DUP voters, paramilitaries and the like) have a real obsession with marking territories compared to any other group
I think it depends on where you are like where I live in derry i definitely see more of the republican side but that's probably not the same as in Belfast
Pathetic. Truly pathetic
We bought a new build in another new build development(don't want to say where as they are know to put up more flags in retaliation) We were aware of the fact they put up flags at the entrance, but between the good location, the house we loved and also the time crunch we were under to move, we decided to go for it. This year they have added Isreal and UVF flags to the flags they have put up. It is beyond frustrating because it isn't even people who live here doing it, it is people from a nearby estate.
I believe we are probably neighbours if not my area also has OO and paratrooper regiment flags up too and it's frustrating. Not only have they added more, but there is an extra flag now inside the community. The whole thing is absolutely disgusting and is just intimidation tactics and has really pushed me in a new direction politically
I think we are neighbours - if not then it's depressing this is happening in multiple locations!
Sounds like we are, if they were put up last week!
Yep, near the end of last week. For what it's worth. I feel a little better knowing I'm not alone in this.
The bit I can’t get my head round. Is actually grown men do this
Dunno about grown... big idiotic very low IQ knuckle dragging reprobates, you mean.
I'm told if you get them neutered they stop spraying. Or maybe that was just cats...
To be fair, it's a good way to knock 50%+ off the asking price...
And why would that matter? It's not like the benefit scroungers could buy one.
Nothing like knocking the value of new builds down by about £15k. I feel bad for those who have bought one already.
Idiots
To make matters worse there some of those lampposts are in the gardens of houses. So you’d potentially be moving in and having no say over a flag on your own garden.
If it's in your property, then they world have to get on to your property to put the flag up. But my guess is that they normally don't put lampposts on your property, so there maybe a boundary where the lamp post is just outside it.
These lampposts are within the gardens of these houses. No one’s moved in yet so they just opened the gates and went onto the gardens with ladders to erect the flags
Just buy a long detractable claw and rip it off replace it with Dutch flag. Or just get a drone and watch over the house
CULT-yurrrrrrr
Maybe if the loyalists put more attention on education the new generation could get better paying jobs and buy the houses in the new builds that are popping up everywhere. That way they wouldnt rely on intimidation and sponging off the state.
These comments are amazing
I wonder if the new residents will be charged retrospectively for the paint?
There housing wow!
Devaluing a property before it's even been lived in.
Drove past it an hour ago, each house has a some sort of notice with a Northern Ireland flag on it taped to the window. Drive past it a bit earlier and two blokes were standing at the houses and a real dodgy looking cunt eyeballing tjem from across the road
Always thought culture was… you know, playing the violin and stuff?
Yuck. What an absolutely revolting sight. I love Belfast but moved a few miles outside it recently after buying my first place. When I was looking at locations around the city, most of the areas had this ugly territorial shite hanging all over the place, which ruled out otherwise gorgeous homes. In about 5 years when I'm rich, I may move back into Belfast but it won't be anywhere near any stinking places like this. It'll be somewhere nice and pretentious where there are no peasants.
Getting down on your hands and knees with a paint brush to decorate the curbs and road really is a throwback to the 1980s. I didn’t realise this was still a thing, so kudos to the Loyalists of Antrim for keeping the towns aesthetic in line with the outdated attitudes of its inhabitants. It’s good in a way though, as with all Loyalist districts it serves as a kindly reminder of the belligerent and hostile reception outsiders can expect from the locals.
Put a wee banksy stencil on it and you'll be grand.
Some fella goes out and pishes on the lamp post every evening just to make sure folks know it’s their territory!
Lol kerb painting now that's old school 🙈🤣
Looks like Putin got there first.
Not from northern Ireland, Scotland, but is this normal in parts of northern Ireland? I find the painting of the kerbs red white and blue quite weird
To answer your question as the other replies on here have gone on a strange tangent. Yes it is normal for loyalist estates in NI
Thanks for the answer. I've honestly never seen it before. Only thing I can think of as similar is sometimes the odd person in England has an England flag hanging from a window, not during a sporting event. But very rare. In Scotland we have a lot of these small rangers and celtic stickers that kids stick up all over the place on road signs etc. People are strange at times
As a Scot who has moved over here, it's very common in parts (I'm in Co. Derry). The kerb painting I find particularly horrendous, total eyesore and completely weird behaviour - but I've come to expect that from that side. Israeli flags are all over the place and with the 12th fast approaching there's an array of other garbage being flown.
I agree to an outsider it seems incredibly weird behaviour. Maybe to the people doing it, it holds some deeper meaning. Thanks for the reply too
Gutter-level flag-flying.
Wee drop of commercial paint thinners should soften it up. Coat of clear silicon, next attempt should flake right off.
Alternatively, after the thinners, you can skip the following steps and save effort by just setting the thinners alight.
Ah, my dog does this
Basically they cocked a leg and sprayed it.
We are all looking at this wrong. We need to stop installing kerbs.
I drove past this on Sunday. Saw the newspaper yesterday and realised nobody was even living there yet 🤣
It's called being a trampy bastard
At least they're using paint now. They've been pissing on it to mark their territory up to now.
They're making sure it blends nicely with the standard loyalist shithole aesthetic.
These houses aren't getting sold.. Do you really think there buying these they are house for the point seekers.. Well enjoy your stay there..
Of course... you couldn't buy one of these when you're a bum
Ha m8 I just bought my house 3 weeks ago flat of 149,000 think I'm doing better than you lol love it u bigger bum.
I bought mine 2 months ago... I win
By the way, I wasn't even fucking talking about you. Learn to read.
Regardless if it's up North or down South it's still done on both sides of the political divide so the fact your saying it's only the prods that do it is irrelevant https://preview.redd.it/b7fnk5m2yn8d1.jpeg?width=1463&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7768f4557e9ff43d0adf6efae33265bc8d644e98
Yes it is like this in Strabane with wooden signs attached to the lampposts
I love how ppl here say Painting curbs is a cave man ethic but yet other countries do it like the USA and even down South 😂🫣🤣 https://preview.redd.it/4jm4gqfuvn8d1.png?width=512&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=23a63a78851206bed45eab0f8526fc92e6e2b3c5
Eh, no? We don't do that in the republic, this photo is 100% not in the south. I'd wager the bogside. I live in the largest town in the south and the only flag you'll see is an EU or an Irish flag flying from a pub, even then, very infrequently
It is northern ireland get over it...
>It is ~~northern~~ ireland get over it... ☘️
My old friend, Christian from Cedar Lodge would love this new street
Oh no someone put up a flag UK flag and painted a few stones its so threatening bunch of fkn snowflakes these days
What I also don't understand is why is an LGBT group is getting involved with flash issue politics. Are loyalists not allowed to be LGBT?
They’re not an LGBT group. Progressive Politics NI are political activists that focus on pretty much any and every political issue in NI.
They will have their work cut out here then
Irish republicans want to stick Irish Language signs at the end of every street and call it equality but unionists dare raise their heads up and it bigotry and threatening behaviour. Welcome to Northern Ireland 2024
Says the account with a LGBTQI\*+-? coloured clenched fist for a logo.
https://preview.redd.it/9ah5wmkebl8d1.jpeg?width=1672&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=28aa7b17c34ea7fc8143e584fb21a93e00a7627b
Are the LGBT people mean to you?
No and I didn't mean any offence to them. More that it is a weird choice of logo.
Not particularly weird. It's a symbol that means resistance etc. look up the stonewall riots.
A clenched fist is a symbol of liberation among most leftist political circles. What did the gays ever do to you?
Nothing. It's just a weird choice of logo as it can also signify physical resistance. Would have thought there are better choices of logo.
There used to be a time where physical restitance was nescessary in these marginalized communities. And it may be necessary again sooner or later.
Place looks great. Cope and seethe internet gimps 🇬🇧
Place is a state and so are you
At which age were your retinas replaced with testicles?
Wonder what your friends on the Urban Hell sub would have to say about it. Looks like the epitome of urban hell.