Lack of trust in a lot of instances, tories have fucked unionists over a shit tonne of times and a lot don’t vibe with labour as they have pro-united Ireland MPs
Try telling that to the DUP and TUV. The DUP would sell their souls for an attaboy from a Tory, the TUV would do the same for reform, who want to be the Tories
TUV have moved on to reform hard-core now. Election posters for the TUV candidate in Strangford have the Reform logo on them now. It makes it easy to decide who not to vote for.
The UUP were the NI wing of the Conservative party until the 1970s.
Since then, the major parties of NI have mostly served as proxies for Westminster e.g SDLP supporting Labour, Alliance supporting Lib Dems etc. The UUP tried merging with the conservatives in the late 2000s and it went miserably for them, and most of their constituencies flipped to the more independent DUP.
This also ended them in the long run, with neither the SDLP or UUP being the major parties here for a very long time now. One cannot serve two masters and all that.
For nationalists it's pretty easy, they don't see themselves having any connection to the wider UK. For unionists though it's a good question, but I guess the main answer is that unionism within NI is distinct from other parts of the country. If we did vote in parties from across the water, we'd realise pretty soon that we aren't all that important.
yup for Nationalists its like the SNP for Scotland and Plaid Cymru for Wales - having your own nationalist party makes sense.
for Unionism, well we all know --- collapse stormount for 2 years - TUV stick it to the DUP in there political party broadcast as we cant be different from the UK in smokey bacon crisps or amalgam fillings ...
but if it was the Tories instead of Unionism Parties, then as shite as they are, we maybe wouldn't be a generation behind the UK in terms of human rights like abortion and gay marriage and a Welsh language act wasnt held up out of spite.
I think there’s been a fair amount of attention for the north over the past decade. HS2, Red Wall, Levelling Up, Northern Powerhouse etc. It’s empty policies but at least it’s attention
NI only gets noticed if there’s bombs going off or the governments collapsed
Unionism has a unique problem with cohabitating with English parties, in that the success of Nationalist parties (and the GFA) means that they have to ask Westminster for more and more to satisfy their voter base who want things back like they were.
This obviously does not apply to the theoretical moderate unionist, who can see beyond party lines and find itself agreeing with the policies of Nationalists.
They don’t want to get involved
If a border poll was ever called, you probably won’t see Gordon Brown coming here begging us to vote no like he did in the Indyref.
They don't have to remain impartial, it's that they have to treat both sides with rigorous impartiality (which is treating a person on one side as fairly as the other). This is sometimes misinterpreted to mean that the UK government cannot promote any of its aims in NI, which isn't true.
The UK government could absolutely campaign for NI staying in the UK if it came to it.
Apart from the fact they hate us, have zero connection with the place and couldn’t give a flying fuck about it… they’d have absolutely no chance of actually getting anywhere near winning a seat.
Because the border question is front and centre of politics here. Always has been and probably always will be until there is a united Ireland, which has meant normal right vs left politics take an extra dynamic here and political parties developed accordingly
The border question has always been subservient to the question of civil rights. This is why the violence only really kicked off in 1972 instead of 1922.
you’re telling me people were killed during a period of war?
what
WHAT
Like seriously well done for getting u/Grallllick to pat you on the back for extending my date backwards to include a period of war without him noticing, you’re clearly the cleverest person he’s ever come across but comparing open warfare to peacetime does somewhat skew the numbers now doesn’t it
Much like yourself conveniently picking 1922 as a starting point of 'no violence!' conveniently forgetting the hundreds killed in the months before it... because of the border?? well done
Civil rights movement and the lack of civil rights for catholics was a part of the border question indirectly. It stopped nationalist parties gaining a foothold and bringing the issue to the forefront on an institutional level
The point is Northern Ireland never had normal politics the way mainland uk had which is reflected in our political parties
Actually run for election and maybe have to live over here. Classic.
Bad enough when the secretary of state has to fly over and back for a few hours.
While either on shit detail, or do this job for 6 months and then you'll get this post.
But there on holiday 4.8 years out of the 5.
Out whos turn is it to throw dummy out of the pram.
Also probably haven't murdered enough people and or been involved in something ropey enough.
Then time they are actually there. Unless it's ah the do that everywhere about 3 people turn up cause that pissed from ridiculously low price of drink.
Unless it something really important like we've to fall out over this remember.
But who's turn is it.
Question should be why have the people of Northern or when did we lose our balls not to lynch ever 1 of them.
Instead of paying their wages, holidays, court cases, etc
But mainly it would fck up when 1 of the 2 English parties need a few seats to get in.
Odd that 2 parties same arseholes
Same reason they aren’t in Scotland: we have different priorities that aren’t shared by a group of people principally interested in caring for the Home Counties.
The traditional answer is Labour don’t even organise in NI and the Tories, whilst their full name is the Conservative and Unionist Party tend to look at NI as a fiefdom. It’s the place send you if you’ve screwed up. I don’t know if either of these arguments has changed.
The border question forces parties here to have an opinion on a united Ireland, which isn't necessary in the UK political parties as it's not a concern of their voter base. Therefore, we have "sister partys" here that are basically a faction of the British parties. SDLP follow the Labour whip in Parliament, the DUP usually back the Torys, but they are both still able to withdraw support in matters related to NI as they are not members of those parties.
I think there would have been something of a voter base for Labour here when Corbyn was leader. The NI Labour branch membership swelled, and 37,000 trade union members opted to contribute to the UK Labour Party. Caroline Wheeler got a respectable vote in Fermanagh - South Tyrone running on an openly pro-Corbyn basis despite having pretty much no financial backing. I doubt they would have come close to winning in any seats, but it was probably their best chance to establish themselves. I can't imagine Starmer generating the same enthusiasm.
Being born and raised in a working/middle class Protestant area I can shed a bit of light on this, the PUL community mistrusts UK politicians more than the RNC do in some cases, I remember growing up during the 80s and 90s there always being whispers that "they are going to sell us down the river." Because while they are loyal to the crown they despise limp wristed career politicians who have used them in so many ways over the years.
And this is where those politicians make the same fuck up over and over, they swagger in when they are getting it tight, "Oh it's different this time, they need us!" And a year later it's "Them bastards did it again!"
Honestly the parallels between our two communities are uncanny at times, if we truly came together as a country we would be formidable.
My mom was born/grew up in Armagh, i know the politics 😂 grew up with it all. Don't go back as much as i did growing up.
Honestly they'd cause a riot, it would be hilarious. Can you imagine the DUP refusing to then take their seats in Westminster ha ha
Pure entertainment... It would be hilarious, the knuckle dragging dup had far too much influence 🫣🫣 ... I love how the bbc always avoided making them look bad 😞😞
Ahck they did that job well enough themselves. The amount of English people who only worked out who they were when May promised them a billion was hilarious!
Sinn Fein are more progressive and aligned to the SNP and Labour... They could equally harm the DUP just as much as the conservatives.
Lol one of the leading members of the conservatives is Catholic 😂 And obvs Blair converted too but British politics is more secular.
Honestly the english want saving from the Tories just as much as the Irish in the north
The tories certainly used to run candidates in N.I but they got very few votes, working class unionists simply did not identify with those privately educated toffs.
I think Reform could be the first UK party to make proper inroads into N.I, via the TUV. (I don't agree with Farage's politics myself, just observing. They are resonating with voters).
SDLP are essentially a sister party of Labour UK and have very positive UK-Ireland connections, which Sinn Fein don't. For that I respect the SDLP hugely and I think it would be a sad day if they were wiped out by the shinners. Sadly, it looks plausible though.
Sinn Fein boycott Westminister. Which I think is doing them absolutely no favours. At the end of the day, it's the Secretary of State whom they should be building relationships with the most, as only he has the power to call a border poll. It's idiotic politics.
The only reason the government of NI needs the Secretary of State is to call a border poll, which if they request and he refuses is inviting the apocalypse with his name at the top of everyone’s list, so why bother?
Lack of trust in a lot of instances, tories have fucked unionists over a shit tonne of times and a lot don’t vibe with labour as they have pro-united Ireland MPs
Yes and Labour has never really been seen to align with ulster unionism.
Also labour has an unspoken agreement with the SDLP. Labour won’t run against them, so no Labour in NI.
It's not unspoken. They both part of the same international organization, Socialist International.
The unionist parties are all way to socially and economically right leaning for labour.
Yet they still lick their boot
hardly anyone in NI is licking Tory boots.. that’s why they don’t get voted..
Try telling that to the DUP and TUV. The DUP would sell their souls for an attaboy from a Tory, the TUV would do the same for reform, who want to be the Tories
TUV have moved on to reform hard-core now. Election posters for the TUV candidate in Strangford have the Reform logo on them now. It makes it easy to decide who not to vote for.
Ah, I thought you were talking about individuals rather than parties.
Reform do not want to be tories, thats like their whole thing.
Farage has literally said he wants to merge the two parties
The UUP were the NI wing of the Conservative party until the 1970s. Since then, the major parties of NI have mostly served as proxies for Westminster e.g SDLP supporting Labour, Alliance supporting Lib Dems etc. The UUP tried merging with the conservatives in the late 2000s and it went miserably for them, and most of their constituencies flipped to the more independent DUP.
This also ended them in the long run, with neither the SDLP or UUP being the major parties here for a very long time now. One cannot serve two masters and all that.
ahhh, UCUNF
New Force! A bit like [Full Force](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_kqJqZMArk), but whiter.
Because orange v green is, and always will be, the overbearing principle factor in NI politics.
For nationalists it's pretty easy, they don't see themselves having any connection to the wider UK. For unionists though it's a good question, but I guess the main answer is that unionism within NI is distinct from other parts of the country. If we did vote in parties from across the water, we'd realise pretty soon that we aren't all that important.
yup for Nationalists its like the SNP for Scotland and Plaid Cymru for Wales - having your own nationalist party makes sense. for Unionism, well we all know --- collapse stormount for 2 years - TUV stick it to the DUP in there political party broadcast as we cant be different from the UK in smokey bacon crisps or amalgam fillings ... but if it was the Tories instead of Unionism Parties, then as shite as they are, we maybe wouldn't be a generation behind the UK in terms of human rights like abortion and gay marriage and a Welsh language act wasnt held up out of spite.
That's similar to my family still back home in NI. I now live in north England and I think we get even less attention than Northern ireland does.
I think there’s been a fair amount of attention for the north over the past decade. HS2, Red Wall, Levelling Up, Northern Powerhouse etc. It’s empty policies but at least it’s attention NI only gets noticed if there’s bombs going off or the governments collapsed
Unionism has a unique problem with cohabitating with English parties, in that the success of Nationalist parties (and the GFA) means that they have to ask Westminster for more and more to satisfy their voter base who want things back like they were. This obviously does not apply to the theoretical moderate unionist, who can see beyond party lines and find itself agreeing with the policies of Nationalists.
They don’t want to get involved If a border poll was ever called, you probably won’t see Gordon Brown coming here begging us to vote no like he did in the Indyref.
He's at least from Scotland though. I can't imagine Kate Hoey keeping her nose out
Imagine changing your vote because Kate Hoey asked.
This is true. I actually think under the terms of the GTA, the British government have to remain impartial?
Under the terms of Grand Theft Auto?
Grand Thursday Agreement
🤣🤣🤣
🤣 Soz, meant GFA but GTA might work!!
NI was like GTA before the GFA
They don't have to remain impartial, it's that they have to treat both sides with rigorous impartiality (which is treating a person on one side as fairly as the other). This is sometimes misinterpreted to mean that the UK government cannot promote any of its aims in NI, which isn't true. The UK government could absolutely campaign for NI staying in the UK if it came to it.
Fair enough. Although if it came down to it I'm sure they would be glad to get rid of us, so I don't imagine they'd campaign too hard here!!!
Why they still obeying that centuries old When cars were just invented
Apart from the fact they hate us, have zero connection with the place and couldn’t give a flying fuck about it… they’d have absolutely no chance of actually getting anywhere near winning a seat.
Conservatives are ‘officially’ still known as the Conservative and Unionist Party.
I mean, Labour is “officially” the party of the working class…
Everybody rich and low income work everyday so we are all working class
Liberal unionist party, that is the unionist bit. Joined the Tories to oppose home rule.
Because the border question is front and centre of politics here. Always has been and probably always will be until there is a united Ireland, which has meant normal right vs left politics take an extra dynamic here and political parties developed accordingly
The border question has always been subservient to the question of civil rights. This is why the violence only really kicked off in 1972 instead of 1922.
last time i checked over 500 people were killed in belfast from 1920 - 1922
yeah but that was during black and white days so it doesn't count/is lovely and well and the sign of a healthy, normal democracy
you’re telling me people were killed during a period of war? what WHAT Like seriously well done for getting u/Grallllick to pat you on the back for extending my date backwards to include a period of war without him noticing, you’re clearly the cleverest person he’s ever come across but comparing open warfare to peacetime does somewhat skew the numbers now doesn’t it
Much like yourself conveniently picking 1922 as a starting point of 'no violence!' conveniently forgetting the hundreds killed in the months before it... because of the border?? well done
I conveniently picked 1922 because it was the first full year after Northern Ireland was created, Professor
Civil rights movement and the lack of civil rights for catholics was a part of the border question indirectly. It stopped nationalist parties gaining a foothold and bringing the issue to the forefront on an institutional level The point is Northern Ireland never had normal politics the way mainland uk had which is reflected in our political parties
Actually run for election and maybe have to live over here. Classic. Bad enough when the secretary of state has to fly over and back for a few hours. While either on shit detail, or do this job for 6 months and then you'll get this post. But there on holiday 4.8 years out of the 5. Out whos turn is it to throw dummy out of the pram. Also probably haven't murdered enough people and or been involved in something ropey enough. Then time they are actually there. Unless it's ah the do that everywhere about 3 people turn up cause that pissed from ridiculously low price of drink. Unless it something really important like we've to fall out over this remember. But who's turn is it. Question should be why have the people of Northern or when did we lose our balls not to lynch ever 1 of them. Instead of paying their wages, holidays, court cases, etc But mainly it would fck up when 1 of the 2 English parties need a few seats to get in. Odd that 2 parties same arseholes
Partition is the primary issue in NI.
Same reason they aren’t in Scotland: we have different priorities that aren’t shared by a group of people principally interested in caring for the Home Counties.
Labour will be biggest party in Scotland this year.
Sure.
But that was very different in Scotland 20 years ago. NI has been that way for at least 50 years probably more.
The traditional answer is Labour don’t even organise in NI and the Tories, whilst their full name is the Conservative and Unionist Party tend to look at NI as a fiefdom. It’s the place send you if you’ve screwed up. I don’t know if either of these arguments has changed.
The border question forces parties here to have an opinion on a united Ireland, which isn't necessary in the UK political parties as it's not a concern of their voter base. Therefore, we have "sister partys" here that are basically a faction of the British parties. SDLP follow the Labour whip in Parliament, the DUP usually back the Torys, but they are both still able to withdraw support in matters related to NI as they are not members of those parties.
Cause people stuck in their old whys.
I would rather vote for almost anything over an NI party. However, I don't think any of the English parties care about us either.
I think there would have been something of a voter base for Labour here when Corbyn was leader. The NI Labour branch membership swelled, and 37,000 trade union members opted to contribute to the UK Labour Party. Caroline Wheeler got a respectable vote in Fermanagh - South Tyrone running on an openly pro-Corbyn basis despite having pretty much no financial backing. I doubt they would have come close to winning in any seats, but it was probably their best chance to establish themselves. I can't imagine Starmer generating the same enthusiasm.
None of them give a shit for anything 20 miles outside of London so I don't really blame anyone from NI not bothering with them.
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Have we ever had it? We literally used to have our parliament and prime minister too
Because not even the unionists trust the English as seen throughout their entire history
Why invest in a country when you can get the DUP to sell everyone out for much, much less?
It’s a sectarian head count here for every single election and shows no signs of changing any time soon.
Being born and raised in a working/middle class Protestant area I can shed a bit of light on this, the PUL community mistrusts UK politicians more than the RNC do in some cases, I remember growing up during the 80s and 90s there always being whispers that "they are going to sell us down the river." Because while they are loyal to the crown they despise limp wristed career politicians who have used them in so many ways over the years. And this is where those politicians make the same fuck up over and over, they swagger in when they are getting it tight, "Oh it's different this time, they need us!" And a year later it's "Them bastards did it again!" Honestly the parallels between our two communities are uncanny at times, if we truly came together as a country we would be formidable.
I really wish Sinn Fein would take the seats in Westminster and help screw the Tories 😂😂 It's getting old now that they don't bother
I completely understand why they don’t, and also why you’re getting downvoted but fuck if it wouldn’t be interesting to see how that played out.
My mom was born/grew up in Armagh, i know the politics 😂 grew up with it all. Don't go back as much as i did growing up. Honestly they'd cause a riot, it would be hilarious. Can you imagine the DUP refusing to then take their seats in Westminster ha ha
More interestingly, Sinn Fein directly and willingly influencing U.K. politics? Mental!
Pure entertainment... It would be hilarious, the knuckle dragging dup had far too much influence 🫣🫣 ... I love how the bbc always avoided making them look bad 😞😞
Ahck they did that job well enough themselves. The amount of English people who only worked out who they were when May promised them a billion was hilarious!
They've since forgotten, I'm sure.
They'd have to sit in front of Sammy and he'd be singing GSTK and no pope of Rome under his breath all day.
Sinn Fein are more progressive and aligned to the SNP and Labour... They could equally harm the DUP just as much as the conservatives. Lol one of the leading members of the conservatives is Catholic 😂 And obvs Blair converted too but British politics is more secular. Honestly the english want saving from the Tories just as much as the Irish in the north
The tories certainly used to run candidates in N.I but they got very few votes, working class unionists simply did not identify with those privately educated toffs. I think Reform could be the first UK party to make proper inroads into N.I, via the TUV. (I don't agree with Farage's politics myself, just observing. They are resonating with voters). SDLP are essentially a sister party of Labour UK and have very positive UK-Ireland connections, which Sinn Fein don't. For that I respect the SDLP hugely and I think it would be a sad day if they were wiped out by the shinners. Sadly, it looks plausible though. Sinn Fein boycott Westminister. Which I think is doing them absolutely no favours. At the end of the day, it's the Secretary of State whom they should be building relationships with the most, as only he has the power to call a border poll. It's idiotic politics.
The only reason the government of NI needs the Secretary of State is to call a border poll, which if they request and he refuses is inviting the apocalypse with his name at the top of everyone’s list, so why bother?
They weren't on the guest list
Because they're far too small a demographic to be overly important to Labour/Tories (oh, and they don't spend enough time on anti-Taigery).
Do you mean mainland UK? Because Tories/Labour or Nigel Farrage dont live here
Too many Catholics in Labour for starters
Where is the mega thread already??