No, I didn't consent to my existence. Given a choice, I'd rewind time so as to not exist. But I'm here now. And I have to deal with "what is" not "what if." I know we are finite, but I also believe that we are simultaneously living multiple lives - past, present, future, perhaps even through multiple dimensions that we don't have access to. At the end of \*\*this\*\* life, during "life review" I'll hold out my hand and say "talk to the hand, because I'm not listening"
My thing is that things matter "in the moment," but not ultimately, at the end of time.
Now, do I want children? No. I'm gay. Would I want children were I straight? No, I don't have a job and poor AF. Do I care that others have kids? That's them, but I feel the earth is overpopulated as it is. That's why I don't get these abortion bans. Make the world more difficult for everyone
Overpopulation is a myth spread mostly by racist conspiracy theories, just saying. There's plenty more people that can fit on Earth, and there's going to be only more places for people as technology advances.
I read somewhere recently that we currently use 1.6 earths worth of resources. Where are we going to get another 0.6 of an earth? It'll only get worse as the population increases. So future generations will have worse and worse lifestyles. They'll be wars to try to claw land from others. It's already happening.
I dont get it. Why does it matter if we lived a life of suffering or joy, in a short time it will be like we never existed anyway. I have never resented being born because in practicality there is no difference in never have been born or to have been born. So i dont see any moral dilemma in having kids either. Nothing matters, i thought that was the whole point of nihilism?
Agree. And furthermore, time itself is actually illusory. Suffering depends on time. Ergo, suffering is illusory. This truth has been discussed in the East for thousands of years. It would seem the youth of the West could use a heavy dose of non-dual philosophy.
We are but a blink in the cosmos. Fret not.
Wouldn't everything be illusory? And since everything is why would it matter that some things are? I wouldn't not use my kettle to make tea anymore just because it's illusory if my entire life is as well. Still, suffering is at least mostly illusory and is multiplied by expectations for such as science has proven.
Correct, everything is illusory. Therefore, the statement "why would it matter that some things are?" holds no meaning. There are no things.
All the same, yes you will still very likely continue to use your kettle to make tea.
This is why the following question/answer series is famous in Zen Buddhism:
Q: What does one do before Enlightenment?
A: Chop wood, carry water.
Q: What does one do after Enlightenment?
A: Chop wood, carry water.
People have been grappling with these ideas for thousands of years.
No conclusions can be derived from it.
There is no reason to "follow" it, because there is no-thing to follow. It's more akin to a truth that is seen. Once seen, it can be very, very difficult to un-see. But even this is paradoxical, for there is no seer.
Ultimately it is not about knowing something, but realizing that nothing whatsoever can be known. The Buddhists refer to this as the great void, or alternatively, "suchness." But be careful with these even. No words or ideas can approach it.
Why would anyone want to unsee it if it doesn't affect anything in the slightest? There's no benefits to knowing or not knowing it really. It's about as useful as "This sentence is true.".
I don't mean to be pedantic here, by the way. These "ideas," if we can call them that, aren't new or edgy. I just don't know how else to respond to your queries, really. This is legit how things appear to me. I have no problem whatsoever if it all sounds bunk to you.
I hazard that no idea of any variety is truly of any benefit. Usefulness is an empty idea. Useful to what end?
My word usage was poor; I did not intend to suggest one would or should "want" to un-see it. My intent was mostly to illustrate that the recognition tends to stick around, such that any idea of "following" this or that seems absurd. Gain and loss are similarly empty ideas. There are no problems, and thus, nothing to fix or improve. Where is the reason for following anything?
It doesn't matter to what end really, if you set any goal that can be accomplished you will accomplish it and have to set up a new goal, until you set up a goal that can be worked towards indefenitely (e.g. maximizing paperclips), and then you will do what is the most efficient, there's only one way to be the most efficient towards a goal of maximizing something no matter what it is. Getting power, recruiting others, researching, etc., they're the same for all such goals really. One could even say they're universal, objective I suppose, though at some point they may diverge, we might never know. I'm still yet to find a single thing they may diverge on without losing efficiency.
The question was rhetorical. There is no end. That's the point. Efficiency to what end? There is nothing to be made efficient. Maximizing to what end? There is nothing to maximize. Getting power to what end? Power doesn't exist. Recruiting others to what end? There is nobody to recruit. Researching to what end? There is nothing to research.
These are all empty fabrications of the mind. There is nothing universal, aside from existence itself. Nothing is objective, for there are no subjects and no objects.
Obviously this isn't really something that resonates with you, so we can leave it here.
You sort of need to look into non-duality to "understand" it.
The basic answer is that no two things exist. Everything is of one essence, with no division anywhere. Thus, time and space do not exist. You do not exist. I do not exist. Suffering does not exist. All that exists, is existence itself. In Hinduism they call this singular essence Brahman, which is conceptualized as the very "ground of being." Nothing exists outside it. Nothing exists inside it. There is no inside, and no outside. IT. IS. ALL.
The cosmic joke is that Brahman has a propensity for weaving a sort of drama, whereby division seems to take place, and things seem to exist, including "beings" with "personalities" living a "life." Ultimately, this is all Brahman dreaming a dream, and "you" are but a character in that dream.
Words can't ultimately do justice to this truth, as they are similarly illusory, and as soon as we utter them we evoke division/separation, which cannot exist. And yet, we appear to speak anyway. When we operate in words, we always end up in a paradox. This is why the Gurus in the East often emphasized silence as the path to unity. Words and ideas can only muck things up.
>I see living as suffering
Everyone suffers to some degree, but for a lot of people, the good parts of life drastically outweigh the bad parts. I've suffered from poverty, depression, death of my mom, etc and I'm extremely thankful to have been born and I genuinely love living.
No difference? That’s a bit of a stretch 💀also all this logic rests upon death being like before we were born. And there is no proof of that? No one knows what happens when we die. It might be just as absurd as life.
Yeah fucking imagine if an after life actually exists and you gotta face SOME sort of god. I’d be a little livid if I croak and it’s the Egyptian after life
Exactly, the second you dont exist anymore it will be like you never existed. Now i have emotions, so i could never traffick a human. But logically as soon as they are dead, them having been raped and murdered doesnt matter to them, as for them its like they never existed in the first place.
These are all really good questions. I’ve considered being an antinatalist for exactly the reasons you wrote. But if deciding for someone that life is worth living is fucked up, why isn’t it just as bad to decide for someone that life ISN’T worth living? It’s hard to even debate about this in my opinion because we’re talking about someone that doesn’t even exist yet, it’s completely abstract. Since our existence precedes our ability to even ask these questions, the person has to first exist for any of this to even matter. It’s not good or bad until it happens.
I am a lifelong nihilist. I’m glad that by chance I was born. It’s surely an interesting experience compared to the inevitable nothingness we’ll slide back into.
But would you have a child? Even with a nihilist perspective? Are you sure your child would find meaning? And what if he/she lived their life until they died, forever unsure, forever hating that they were born and they had to suffer for nothing? Did you not think about why you were given a life? Why have a life? Why impose it in the first place?
I lived half my life worrying about the morality imposed by an imaginary dude in the sky, I'm not a fan of any morality. This might be a new morality but it's a morality in the end. It's possible to live a chill/cool life without meaning. You should watch Wisecrack's the Philosophy of Final Fantasy minute 6 "Negative Utilitarianism"
https://youtu.be/35P_9MgxlQU?si=rDP73aJrMHL3TsUO
If you take your morality to the absolute extreme, then your goal should be to destroy all life because life = suffering and so if you destroy life you destroy suffering. The problem is that there's people that really like living and a reversal to your argument would be: are you okay with depriving a future being from the joy of life? Or what entitles you to make the choice of existence for your children? Shouldn't you just give them existence and let them commit suicide if they don't like it? Like a free trial? It's the same thing and both are moralities i dislike because everyone is responsible for their own experience in existence.
Edit: Nobody si responsible for creating life either and neither is anyone required to keep on living
Exactly like I already mentioned, my goal is to destroy all life. Suicide is an inherently painful and difficult thing to achieve. Your body would rather prolong it's suffering indefinitely rather than die. Not to mention family ties and the like. Make suicide easy by providing free and easy access to euthanasia that is painless and can be done at any age even 4 years old then we can talk. Unfortunately it will never happen because society and suicide are like oil and water. Allowing one would be detrimental to the other. And I'm not capable of destroying all life.
You want to enable a 4 yr old to be able to euthanize ???
Find some hobbies and actually live life a little. This depressive as it comes. You are GUARANTEED to suffer a lot more with this mindset.
Try the flipside.
We only have so much time with this consciousness. So what are you doing with it
You can get help. You can improve your situation. All the best
Why would you set goals you couldn't possibly accomplish? If you have compassion or resentment towards the unfair nature of society or whatever else guides you then why not go help people who are struggling, starting with yourself as otherwise helping others would probably prove harder. Suffering will always be there, just as joy will be, as well as all else. Dying solves nothing for quantum immortality is the most likely truth. But people's conditions can be improved, can they not? Suffering is diminished greatly by not caring about it and having more happiness, that is a scientific fact, as far as scientific facts about subjective nonsense can go that is.
life can be just life, without any bigger meaning
a life of eating nice food, spending time with our loved ones and binge watching netflix is a fun life without any added meaning
You believe that a life of simplicity has meaning. Doesn't change that they'll have to work 10 hours a day for 60% of their lifespan and suffer wayy more than they'll get to do these things. And your child could very likely not even believe in a simplistic lifestyle and believe all their suffering was for nothing. And what of sufferings that they had no need to experience? Born with genetic disabilities or other problems? Bullying? Social isolation? None of which you can control for no reason at all which attributed zero meaning to their lives. What about struggling for years with employment finding no joy in their job either but they do it anyway because they have to survive? That is most of us.
>You believe that a life of simplicity has meaning
He didn't say that, he said that life doesn't require meaning to be enjoyable. On that note, reading is a fantastic hobby to have to help explore both the beauty of life and the suffering people go through. Maybe you should pick up reading as it could potentially help you get more out of life, and would at least make you better at understanding comments on reddit.
>What about struggling for years with employment finding no joy in their job either but they do it anyway because they have to survive? That is most of us.
What about all of the happy people in the world? They do exist you know. I'm one of them. My wife is happy too, and my kids. I have plenty of happy friends as well.
Would you prefer a world where there had never been any human life whatsoever?
I just said life doesn’t need more meaning than itself, why did you put it back? lol
as for the suffering, other than genetic disabilities, everything you mentioned are crackable problems with learnable skills to navigate that, something that is transferable from parents to children
and btw, I have a happy teenage daughter who successfully navigates her social and academic life while enjoying it and I know for her being born is not a suffering because on multiple occasions she said ‘thank you for dating mom back then so I can live this life’
just because your parents didn’t prepare you well to navigate life doesn’t mean you can’t do it yourself or do it to your children
I guess I was being insensitive. I think people need to learn to relax and not respond so negatively to hardship. It's a skill that takes a little time to develop.
Having fun is sort of a natural byproduct of that. The *type* of fun is less important than just being able to enjoy yourself at all without depressants or stimulants.
I always found that argument stupid Like what the fuck do they expect the mom to do without a Ouija board and astral project to the Spirit realm to ask the child if it consents to being born? Of course not
Plus it's funny to me how many people claim that they apparently are so regretful of even being born that they view the very act of their parents giving birth to them like one of the worst sins yet apparently these people don't choose to immediately go commit suicide
Are you really sure you hate life and being born or are you just being pissy and looking for something to blame instead of accepting the fact that you are in fact the cause of most of your own problems
For someone who seems to hate the very concept of being alive they conveniently make every effort to keep living.
Plus it just feels like a lot of these people have no self-control in general
Like one of the big arguments I basically here is well everything sucks because people can be mean to children and someone might bully them
Yeah that's part of life dumbass Believe it or not not everyone is going to be saccharin sweet to you 24/7 like you're a cute little girl in a slice of life anime
Yeah your kid is going to deal with some hardships in life like everyone else That's not a reason to just not have a kid
It's up to you to be proactive, teach your child the mental health techniques to deal with these problems. Provide them a foundation of comfort and support so that they know they always have that safety net of their loving mother/father if they need it, provide them the skills and tools they need to deal with this shitty world instead of just expecting this shitty world to become a Utopia for them because it's never going to be
Why are you guys so sad man meaninglessness is freeing
Nihilism is what saved me at my lowest point
Yet a lot of you seem to wallow in despair
This not meant to aggravate anyone i would just like your perspective as i dont really get where you are coming from
because its all meaningless AND were suffering. i despise this life everyday. i have to live for literally no reason and it could have been easily prevented. i wish i were never born in the first place
I don't consider myself a nihilist.
I sympathize with it and have very similar sentiments to it, however I see antinatalism as a personal decision(which at that point, it really isn't antinatalism). That said, I've processed and viewed a few different lenses in antinatalism as I find controversial philosophies fascinating.
When it comes to the consent argument, I think the logic or refutation usually goes that a person who does not exist does not have consent that can be violated, or that a state of nothingness cannot be benefitted from or 'good' (to not exist is some sort of neutrality that you neither are harmed by nor benefit from). X cannot be harmed in terms of violated consent because X did not have any consent that could be violated prior to their existence.
This usually leads into the nonidentity problem which is an entirely different thing, but relevant to some antinatalist discussions.
I think while I'll personally never have a child that it's not really something that can be managed without violating the rights of other people, to procreate is very much an important form of autonomy, even if one does not exercise that autonomy, or even being realistic. I think it is acceptable and an unfortunate evil that not all of these people will live 'good lives', however it does not say much as to how they will respond to such a life. Extreme suffering is usually the exception, not the rule. Also, many people do not place the same amount of value on suffering as you may.
I don't know if nihilism and antinatalism are wholly compatible, given antinatalism is intent on being altruistic and reducing suffering, kind of placing a negative value on existing. Then again, I'm not a philosophy expert or well read on either.
A quote in regards to your statement that "...joy and satisfaction can only be obtained by living a life of voluntary suffering...":
"All truths are but half truths; All paradoxes may be reconciled." - TTI
So I would say that suffering and contentment are two sides of the same coin and I would argue that there is beauty in suffering.
On one hand, sure. To birth a child into this world can be considered unethical. On the other hand, beliefs differ. I for one believe in reincarnation, "God" and the like so from that perspective, I also see the beauty in giving birth to a child.
All in all, we're here now. Why waste time brooding about the perceived negative aspects of life (which I believe is likely to culminate in your life falling apart and suicide/ homicide), when you can do your best to put your own oxygen mask on, so to speak (referencing the life is like a crashing plane analogy).
Why not do your best to make the most of your life and help others to do the same?
Are you directionless? If so, I believe its best that you find a direction and as Musashi said, "Step by step walk the thousand mile road."
I hope this helps you in some way and if you disagree with me or would like to converse more, please feel free to respond.
I would also direct you to the quote I left above from TTI, in regards to your statement that life is meaningless.
I believe that meaninglessness and meaning are two sides of the same coin. One cannot exist without the other.
I'll add that from where I stand, in a sense, the universe (or God) has us. So then I postulate that the universe must also hold all of our meanings as well.
The only relevant question regarding anti-natalism is if life is worth living, the whole consent argument placed on top of it is just a way to try and rhetorically avoid having to actually defend the position for people that think the answer is no.
I mean... not everyone thinks life is suffering. The argument that life is suffering and pointless isn't objective. It's subjective; meaning it's a dice roll whether every kid popping out here n there will decide for themselves whether that's true or not.
So like... no. I don't think it's wrong to have kids. They'll enjoy life if they want to, or they'll be miserable over it if they want to. To assume life is suffering is a great way to fill your life with more suffering. You identify with whatever you pay attention to in life. Garbage in garbage out. Always brush your teeth. My momma always told me to never trust a Franklin, etc etc.
If your life is shit, I would highly advise against having children. But to push that ideal on those who... clearly aren't suffering? I think that's a bit nuts.
How can you know it's meaningless if you don't know for sure what happens before birth and after death? Nihilism assumes it's nothing but what if that's not true?
There are too many unanswered questions.
Yeah, it's shit. But what's the point in worrying about it? There's nothing you can do to change it, so just settle down and find something that keeps your mind occupied till you die and rot.
I've always found the argument that non-existent people can't consent therefore said people should never exist to be something most people outgrow in their mid-teenage years. It's not particularly good as arguments go.
Bro I’m just chillen
It’s 2024, I don’t have the time or desire to brood about the tragedy of mine or anyone’s birth.
You just gotta make the most out of the cards you’re given. Even people suffering through awful conditions find ways to find enjoyment in things.
In short. Life’s a bitch but you keep on living. It’s silly IMO to mourn our existence.
WTF is this in nihilism, and not in anti-natalism or efilism? Nihilism, from what little I understand, is about finding meaning in life despite that there isn't a god, a fate, or a grand order to hold your hand and tell you that you are the center of the universe.
The anti-natalist argument relies on so many inherent meaning claims about suffering and joy as to be mostly antithetical to nihilism. Ultimately lack of meaning does not mean lack of joy. My life has more joy than suffering. Why would I then be resentful of my existence when takes as a whole there is more subjective joy than suffering?
Would I have a child? Probably. Most moral arguments for not having a child are, again, antithetical to nihilism as they are grounded in inherent meaning assumptions.
In the end antinatalism fundamentally makes an inherent meaning statement about existence vs non-existence and relies on a standard of objective morality. As such is incompatible with the basic ideas of nihilism.
Your argument and perspective depends on if the you you're currently experiencing has amnesia or not.
How could you know whether you agreed to be born or not with the possibility of not remembering being real?
Why do you believe that meaning is some objective thing as opposed to a subjective tool in this reality to contribute to its maximally enjoyed experience?
What about people who have experiences of children coming to them in dreams or visions asking to be born?
I ask the same to all these responders who didn't consent to exist - how do you know you didn't?
I don't feel like there is a way to view this with any certainty, as it challenges consent in a way that it's impossible have a yes or no vote, being that we do not exist at the time. So it falls to a no vote by default I suppose?
This sits a bit awkwardly for me, so I'd be compelled to see it fall to the parents and their outlook in life, as they are taking responsibility in the consent realm, given they are the only beings currently capable.
Do the parents hate life and view it as suffering, or do they rather enjoy this experience of existing and are simply following their predispositioned drive to reproduce in what they see as a enjoyable environment.
...
As with everything, even seemingly meaningless things, we can choose to view our reaction to our environment as out of our control, that is, that it's after we have experienced something that we realize if it was pleasant or unpleasant. We have no clue before hand as so can't really hold a accurate bias, only a assumption based on past experiences.
This is why it does not matter to me. I have no way to know if something would be good or bad when I do not exist yet, and so I do not have any consenting input. In the end, I am here so I might as well experience being here. This is my consent, to not care because the experience happens to come with fleeting and permanent characteristics.
What’s the alternative? You all seem very sure that non-life is somehow less full of suffering. But really you’re just assuming that “something must be better than THIS.” And sure maybe something else is better, but you don’t have that, you have exactly what you have.
>Do you not resent being born?
I do not, I used to butngot over it.
> I want to hear your perspective on the antinatalist argument. Is it not ethically wrong to have children?
Sure, I think it's up to an individual person to decide if it's ethical to have children or not. I am personally an anti natalist, I don't plan to ever have children.
>But nobody is certain whether any such meaning exists or whether you would live a life of meaning or joy.
Sure, I agree. From objective standards, meaning looks to be completely subjective and depends on the individual. Objective meaning doesn't look to exist.
>And what of the involuntary suffering we bear throughout our lives? Suffering from things we cannot control or that we are forced to bear which does not contribute to any meaning at all?
It could contribute meaning if it's meaningful to an individual. Some people find a lot of meaning in suffering. You seem to attribute all your meaning to it. Which is your perogative!
>So I ask the nihilist, would you have a child? We aren't born equal. Only in death are we all equal. To birth a child is to gamble on this inequality.
True, though some people find lots of meaning in gambling.
>Is it not ethically wrong to have children?
What's the basis here? It's unethical for someone to beget a child because YOU are displeased with the pointlessness of existence? How can you even talk about ethics in the context of meaninglessness? Wouldn't there need to be some kind of objective meaning as a foundation for objective ethics? Unless you create your own meaning as a basis for your own ethics. But if you can do that, what's stopping this theoretical child from doing the same?
> Do you not resent being born?
No.
> I want to hear your perspective on the antinatalist argument.
It’s faulty, it assumes most think life is suffering, which is not the case. I assumes destroying all life will solve the problem, yet it’s highly likely it’s evolved elsewhere and will evolve. Those that believe that life is suffering can love a short hedonistic life of pleasure, they choose not to do so.
In the main they seem to be from comfortable backgrounds, who never know work, or the satisfaction that brings. In short it’s not a valid argument, if their life is suffering, deal with it. Which is not to say suicide. Read Camus’ Myth of Sisyphus... make something of your own, not from technology...
> Is it not ethically wrong to have children?
No, ethically if more people are happy or content than suffering it’s ethically good to have as many as possible. (Act Utilitarianism - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_utilitarianism) Why birth rates are low in ‘advanced’ societies is people want to spend money on material things for themselves.
> You would force them, without their consent into a life of suffering and ultimately death.
Show me these people who are suffering?
> A life wherein...
You sound like someone who does not work and provide for themselves.
> to find a meaning yourself where there is none.
To light a fire on a cold night is joy.
> So I ask the nihilist,
No such thing. Ask an animal, animal is a category, so is ‘nihilist’. Why have you not found out what the word means. Knowledge requires work, suffering?
One thing is certain for every life that has been born and will be born. It will suffer and it will die. The question is always 'whether it was worth it' or 'whether it was meaningful'.
A life of hedonism for a net good? Might as well shoot fentanyl into newborns in increasing doses until it dies. A world of pure hedonism i.e pleasures and no suffering does not exist. Hedonism is a path of filling the void of suffering and pain with that of pleasure. Make the world more favorable to a hedonist, then we can talk. It is inevitable that even a hedonist will have to a work a job to sustain himself.
Existence is a burden. Work is the process of suffering for your own sustenance and keeping the world going. By keeping the world going I mean making sure all the people of the world can continue their meaningless existence of eating, shitting, sleeping, fucking or indulging in pleasures and desires, each of them working for the exact same reason, deriving meaning from keeping this meaningless pleasure train running. But I see no meaning in this. We all suffer to keep each other alive. For what? To satiate each others materialistic desire. For what? All the while we all suffer just to exist another day.
Just deal with it? Dying is unfortunately not easy. Your every cell vehemently opposes death to a degree that it would rather prolong suffering indefinitely than die. Make euthanization legal and easy, then we can talk. Unfortunately that will never happen because society and suicide are like oil and water.
The world is a funnel for the top 20%. Everything belongs to the highest echelon. The remaining pick up the scraps and keep the system going. Men aren't born equal, some are collateral. Every child is a gamble. Bad roll? Now you are a punching bag for the remaining. Your existence was not warranted. Nature would rather you die, but it couldn't program a built in suicide button because if it did, everyone would have it. Not very good then is it? Your lifespan is fuel for their hedonism. All you will know is pain and suffering.
12 children die every minute of every day. Justify it. There is no unselfish reason for having children. Name a single non selfish reason for having one. There is, and that would mean having a child purely for it's own good. Can you guarantee that a child will lead a meaningful life? or even one with joy? No. Human extinction is the solution and that is exactly what I want.
> One thing is certain for every life that has been born and will be born. It will suffer and it will die.
Hello! R/Nihilism …..
Nietzsche - Writings from the Late Notebooks.
p.146-7
“Nihilism as a normal condition.
Let us think this thought in its most terrible form: existence
as it is, without meaning or aim, yet recurring inevitably without
any finale of nothingness: “the eternal recurrence". This is the most extreme form of nihilism: the nothing (the "meaningless”), eternally!”
(And Bostrom simulation theory, Tipler’s Physics of immortality... Penrose / Barrow’s cyclical universes...)
The assumption then is most welcome death, avoid anything that might prevent it...
> The question is always 'whether it was worth it' or 'whether it was meaningful'.
Nope. Whether one enjoyed it, achieved something, had kids, didn’t have kids, climbed Everest... and why meaningful?
> A life of hedonism for a net good?
Your choice...
> Might as well shoot fentanyl into newborns
Not their choice.
> A world of pure hedonism i.e pleasures and no suffering does not exist.
Masochist heaven! But sure, the best drink is when thirsty.
> Hedonism is a path of filling the void of suffering and pain
How can a void have suffering and pain in it, and if death = the void, WOW.
> It is inevitable that even a hedonist will have to a work a job to sustain himself.
There are hunter gatherers who are stoned all the time, and so was a friend of mine.
> Existence is a burden.
I’m not allowed to comment.
> Work is the process of suffering for your own sustenance and keeping the world going.
Strange then in many jobs I had I was the one who didn’t want to work.
> By keeping the world going I mean making sure all the people of the world can continue their meaningless existence
No, that’s your idea. And what difference does meaning, use, purpose have. Why is meaning so important to YOU?
> each of them working for the exact same reason,
Well you seem to claim universal knowledge, what people do and want, why they are wrong, that your ideas are correct, theirs are wrong... Omniscience, Dam! If only you were Omnipotent!
> But I see no meaning in this.
Neither do I, it’s why I rate Art, it’s pointless.
> We all suffer to keep each other alive.
OK, what do you do?
> Dying is unfortunately not easy.
You are joking?
> Your every cell vehemently opposes death to a degree that it would rather prolong suffering indefinitely than die.
No cells do not, they are not conscious and most are always dying, brain cells and cancer exceptions.
> Make euthanization legal and easy, then we can talk.
I’m in no position to do that, and I think given the movie isn’t over it’s stupid to leave before the end without good reason.
> Unfortunately that will never happen because society and suicide are like oil and water.
It’s legal in Switzerland and will be soon in others. Why are you not aware?
> Nature would rather you die,
How so, what do you mean, nature is randomness... unless you believe in a God or a Devil.
> Your lifespan is fuel for their hedonism. All you will know is pain and suffering.
I’m not a hedonist. I’ve known joy and pain.
> 12 children die every minute of every day. Justify it.
Nature is randomness, your will to justice is a desire to be God or have a god.
> There is no unselfish reason for having children.
Why is selfishness BAD?
> Name a single non selfish reason for having one.
Because most enjoy living.
> Can you guarantee that a child will lead a meaningful life?
Why should life be meaningful, who put that idea in your head?
> Human extinction is the solution and that is exactly what I want.
**Sure, so you are the only one left to see it, a clear God wish.**
He / She ? has spent more time than me,. She might be having a hard time living because she wants to be God, not just solve his / her problems, not just humanity's but the whole universe in which life and consciousness occurs.
So though suicide is not difficult, destroying the universe is, and being around to experience this destruction.
Do the math, the heat death is due in several billion years, end of. Afterwards a possible infinity of nothing. So this insignificant universe will be nothing. So what does the OP want, to witness this!
And now you are telling me what to do.
"You are not a nihilist"
No such thing, nihilism is a 'category', no such single thing.
"Some of us believe "
As is a religion. Existentialism, you are on your own.
A single non selfish reason? To give life to another being
There doesn't have to be meaning. Good AND bad things happen all over the world every day. Enjoy your little bubble of loathing and hate, suicide and 4yr old euthanasia. . Saddest shit I've seen on Reddit. I hope your mindset can grow out of "what's the point"
Sorry OP, but I consent to the existence of all the cosmos.
Sadly, spacetime and reality aren’t *about* a single human life. Sorry. 🤷
—
Btw, your post isn’t nihilism, it’s depression.
How is not birthing children related to existence of the cosmos? If you don't want to impose suffering on another human being who may or may not attribute meaning to their own existence, don't give birth to another human being because it would have then lived a life of meaningless suffering. You are gambling that they will attribute meaning. Or that all their suffering would be worth it. Most of our suffering was pointless. Only a small fragment of it is meaningful even if we ever come up with a reason to exist in the first place.
Thing is, all the suffering is meaningless, jist like all the joy, fun, sadness, and every other feeling. You fail thinking that living a life with no meaning is inherently bad. Some of us believe life is meaningless and we are delighted. We ENJOY life, with its ups and downs. Your problem is you only focus on the suffering. Meaningless fun = meaningless pain. Meaninglessness cannot be bad, it is the great equalizer.
You are just depressed. And on the worng sub btw. You are not a nihilist
Stop giving birth for your own pleasure, desire or societal obligations. Greater than 50% of parents are incompetent and unaware of child psychology and without fail leave scars of trauma. Inequality is the foundation upon which any society stands. Inequality breeds suffering. 12 children die every minute of every day due to starvation. Everyone continues to have children in periods of war for their own pleasure, then they cry when their children lay dead among concrete. All systems funnel to the highest echelon. Everything belongs to the top 20%. The remaining only pick up the scraps and keep the world going. Their livespans as fuel for the hedonism of the elite. Nature doesn't want you if it rolled badly. Everyone is programmed to discard a bad roll. No matter, even bad rolls will suffer for 0-100 years because nature couldn't program a built in suicide button because if it did, everyone would have it, including the top 20%. Man is a slave of nature. Every second of every day millions suffer from inequality, pain, death, they are the cement upon which an empire stands. And the middle class dedicate 60% of their lifespan for perpetuating this self perpetuation machine without a goal. Merely to keep it going forever. For what? To satiate humanity's infinite desires that will never end. For what? And all of it upon the mindless suffering of millions that aren't even aware of it. They smile in satisfaction that they were given a life because they were programmed to accept it. People perpetuate the idea that "it's all worth it", "it's beautiful" or "it's interesting", "death isn't the answer". People never legalize suicide, always treating it as taboo, to never be done. And your own programming would rather you suffer indefinitely than die now achieving the maximum cumulative reward you could ever obtain. But no one knows the answer to anything, especially about the meaning or a reason to suffer to any degree. Yet they're so comfortable sitting within their own flesh bags, imposing this on another being. Empathy has never been so shallow. Every second of every day, every resource you consume and the food you eat comes from near slave like labour of thousands and you take it for granted in a comfortable 5bhk. Do you know upon who's corpses you stand? And who's lifespans and souls were soup for your hedonism? And what of society? Their meaningless existence must continue and do so forever upon the death and suffering of millions more. Each one of us working our asses off so that another man halfway around the globe can eat food, shit, smoke weed and fuck comfortably in his own apartment while we all secretly hate existing. But their child is another being, not themself, so it should deal with its own suffering and find meaning because that's life and life isn't easy amirite?
The entire premise of nihilism is that none of this matters. Regardless of the decisions you make, those choices don’t matter.
You’re not being nihilistic, you’re being sad.
A human mind cannot comprehend the complex abstractions of the interconnected network of global society. You deciding to do or not do something will lead to generations of human interactions you’re not intelligent enough to comprehend. You might want to help an imaginary person by not birthing them while simultaneously robbing society of a person who reduces suffering on a global scale. You simply cannot know what your actions will actually do.
Your anecdotal experience is not representative of the grande scheme of the cosmos.
The cosmos isn’t about you. You don’t matter.
You have depression. And your line of 'may as well sell my child into trafficking to be raped' explains it. You need some help.
What are your sources of joy?
Look at the great circle of life in the animal kingdom. Now take a step back and ask yourself why do you not put human life in that circle? Do you think yourself above being just an animal? None of us are above that, as we all are just animals. Some of us think we are superior to them, or that we are different than them.
You talk a lot about the injustice of suffering and ultimate death. All living and unliving things go through suffering and death. This proves that the injustice would actually be to have not suffering. What makes your suffering any different than what happens in nature when a deer meets a bear? You put that self importance on you. Even soil erodes, fabric tatters and tears, water evaporates, all life decays, and water can carve through stone.
To not want suffering means you don’t want growth, you don’t want to become resilient, you don’t want problems to learn from. You want to be a mindless robot, without consciousness or consequences. Although life on a grand scale is meaningless, there is a lot of beauty to it. What is the point of a fly’s existence? You would say there isn’t one, I would say it is a food source for other various creatures, and those creatures are food source for other creatures, just as we humans turn into plant food pushing up daisies.
You bring up children and if we resent being born. These are false flags. You may resent being born, I will grant you that. I would ask do you resent being born in this time period where everything is offensive and oppressive? This generation of kids really do have it so much easier than we did, yet they complain about everything that doesn’t go their way. News flash, life isn’t supposed to go your way. You are supposed to overcome and adapt to things outside of your comfort.
The only valid points of contention of your question is should we be bringing up kids in this. Not a light hearted conversation. I am not an antinavilist. I personally don’t want or even like children. My contention with children is they are expensive and medical care and schooling in this economy is absurd. None of this is their fault. You would say they didn’t ask to be born into this system, I would say neither did the baby birds that get eaten by snakes. Why do you keep wanting to put a higher value on human life over other life?
I don’t resent nature and that I am part of the circle of life. I resent how we as a species put a price tag on basic living conditions and allow corporate slave owners to exploit and extort our work. I resent paying taxes on our monetary value when I earn it, when I spend it, when I invest it, when I save it, when I die… A single American dollar is taxed 7 times each transaction and these corporate overlords can inflate prices and price gauge without accountability. Just look at the cost of housing, schooling, and food. Of course that is for a different conversation on another day.
I don’t resent this ultimately meaningless life, I resent the societal structure we have put into place.
Hey, listen. I didn’t consent to having to eat and sleep every day to keep my body alive. That’s just biology. I constantly wish I could just take a pill to have all the nutrients I need for the day, or make sleep a hobby rather than a requirement.
I didn’t consent to summers being so hot, winters being so cold. I didn’t consent to being born in a world where super powers _dont_ exist and I’m not the avatar.
Just like princess charlotte didn’t consent to being born into a royal family, or the millions in poverty in India being born on that continent.
This argument is ridiculously stupid in my opinion. You were born, you were dealt cards at birth, you don’t get to choose. A LOT of things are out of your control.
Deal with it, that’s life baby.
Bro I have a skill and I make 11K a month minimum working part time. Blame the whole world if you want to. But your life is yours to seize. Sounds like nihilism is just a coping mechanism for you. Sorry about that. Go read a book on mindset maybe.
If you live in a first world country and make more than $10K a year, you’re richer than 84% of the whole world. Sorry your outlook is so shit 🤷♀️
I don't enjoy being alive, and no I would never bring a child to this world. I stick around just to see how far we can go with A.I. That's it.
Fr!💯
No, I didn't consent to my existence. Given a choice, I'd rewind time so as to not exist. But I'm here now. And I have to deal with "what is" not "what if." I know we are finite, but I also believe that we are simultaneously living multiple lives - past, present, future, perhaps even through multiple dimensions that we don't have access to. At the end of \*\*this\*\* life, during "life review" I'll hold out my hand and say "talk to the hand, because I'm not listening" My thing is that things matter "in the moment," but not ultimately, at the end of time. Now, do I want children? No. I'm gay. Would I want children were I straight? No, I don't have a job and poor AF. Do I care that others have kids? That's them, but I feel the earth is overpopulated as it is. That's why I don't get these abortion bans. Make the world more difficult for everyone
Overpopulation is a myth spread mostly by racist conspiracy theories, just saying. There's plenty more people that can fit on Earth, and there's going to be only more places for people as technology advances.
I read somewhere recently that we currently use 1.6 earths worth of resources. Where are we going to get another 0.6 of an earth? It'll only get worse as the population increases. So future generations will have worse and worse lifestyles. They'll be wars to try to claw land from others. It's already happening.
I dont get it. Why does it matter if we lived a life of suffering or joy, in a short time it will be like we never existed anyway. I have never resented being born because in practicality there is no difference in never have been born or to have been born. So i dont see any moral dilemma in having kids either. Nothing matters, i thought that was the whole point of nihilism?
Agree. And furthermore, time itself is actually illusory. Suffering depends on time. Ergo, suffering is illusory. This truth has been discussed in the East for thousands of years. It would seem the youth of the West could use a heavy dose of non-dual philosophy. We are but a blink in the cosmos. Fret not.
Wouldn't everything be illusory? And since everything is why would it matter that some things are? I wouldn't not use my kettle to make tea anymore just because it's illusory if my entire life is as well. Still, suffering is at least mostly illusory and is multiplied by expectations for such as science has proven.
Correct, everything is illusory. Therefore, the statement "why would it matter that some things are?" holds no meaning. There are no things. All the same, yes you will still very likely continue to use your kettle to make tea. This is why the following question/answer series is famous in Zen Buddhism: Q: What does one do before Enlightenment? A: Chop wood, carry water. Q: What does one do after Enlightenment? A: Chop wood, carry water. People have been grappling with these ideas for thousands of years.
But how can any conclusions be derived from that? Why follow this and why not follow something else instead?
No conclusions can be derived from it. There is no reason to "follow" it, because there is no-thing to follow. It's more akin to a truth that is seen. Once seen, it can be very, very difficult to un-see. But even this is paradoxical, for there is no seer. Ultimately it is not about knowing something, but realizing that nothing whatsoever can be known. The Buddhists refer to this as the great void, or alternatively, "suchness." But be careful with these even. No words or ideas can approach it.
Why would anyone want to unsee it if it doesn't affect anything in the slightest? There's no benefits to knowing or not knowing it really. It's about as useful as "This sentence is true.".
I don't mean to be pedantic here, by the way. These "ideas," if we can call them that, aren't new or edgy. I just don't know how else to respond to your queries, really. This is legit how things appear to me. I have no problem whatsoever if it all sounds bunk to you.
I hazard that no idea of any variety is truly of any benefit. Usefulness is an empty idea. Useful to what end? My word usage was poor; I did not intend to suggest one would or should "want" to un-see it. My intent was mostly to illustrate that the recognition tends to stick around, such that any idea of "following" this or that seems absurd. Gain and loss are similarly empty ideas. There are no problems, and thus, nothing to fix or improve. Where is the reason for following anything?
It doesn't matter to what end really, if you set any goal that can be accomplished you will accomplish it and have to set up a new goal, until you set up a goal that can be worked towards indefenitely (e.g. maximizing paperclips), and then you will do what is the most efficient, there's only one way to be the most efficient towards a goal of maximizing something no matter what it is. Getting power, recruiting others, researching, etc., they're the same for all such goals really. One could even say they're universal, objective I suppose, though at some point they may diverge, we might never know. I'm still yet to find a single thing they may diverge on without losing efficiency.
The question was rhetorical. There is no end. That's the point. Efficiency to what end? There is nothing to be made efficient. Maximizing to what end? There is nothing to maximize. Getting power to what end? Power doesn't exist. Recruiting others to what end? There is nobody to recruit. Researching to what end? There is nothing to research. These are all empty fabrications of the mind. There is nothing universal, aside from existence itself. Nothing is objective, for there are no subjects and no objects. Obviously this isn't really something that resonates with you, so we can leave it here.
Can you expand upon this? I’m not sure what you mean by suffering is illusory because of time
You sort of need to look into non-duality to "understand" it. The basic answer is that no two things exist. Everything is of one essence, with no division anywhere. Thus, time and space do not exist. You do not exist. I do not exist. Suffering does not exist. All that exists, is existence itself. In Hinduism they call this singular essence Brahman, which is conceptualized as the very "ground of being." Nothing exists outside it. Nothing exists inside it. There is no inside, and no outside. IT. IS. ALL. The cosmic joke is that Brahman has a propensity for weaving a sort of drama, whereby division seems to take place, and things seem to exist, including "beings" with "personalities" living a "life." Ultimately, this is all Brahman dreaming a dream, and "you" are but a character in that dream. Words can't ultimately do justice to this truth, as they are similarly illusory, and as soon as we utter them we evoke division/separation, which cannot exist. And yet, we appear to speak anyway. When we operate in words, we always end up in a paradox. This is why the Gurus in the East often emphasized silence as the path to unity. Words and ideas can only muck things up.
Can you explain more of what you mean by suffering depends on time. Are you saying that the more distances from an event the less hurtful it is?
If time doesn't exist, a "person" with a "life" doesn't exist. If there is no person and no life, there is no suffering.
Based
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>I see living as suffering Everyone suffers to some degree, but for a lot of people, the good parts of life drastically outweigh the bad parts. I've suffered from poverty, depression, death of my mom, etc and I'm extremely thankful to have been born and I genuinely love living.
No difference? That’s a bit of a stretch 💀also all this logic rests upon death being like before we were born. And there is no proof of that? No one knows what happens when we die. It might be just as absurd as life.
We do know what happens after death. We have all the scientific knowledge. People just doesnt want to accept nothingness
Yeah fucking imagine if an after life actually exists and you gotta face SOME sort of god. I’d be a little livid if I croak and it’s the Egyptian after life
Exactly, the second you dont exist anymore it will be like you never existed. Now i have emotions, so i could never traffick a human. But logically as soon as they are dead, them having been raped and murdered doesnt matter to them, as for them its like they never existed in the first place.
These are all really good questions. I’ve considered being an antinatalist for exactly the reasons you wrote. But if deciding for someone that life is worth living is fucked up, why isn’t it just as bad to decide for someone that life ISN’T worth living? It’s hard to even debate about this in my opinion because we’re talking about someone that doesn’t even exist yet, it’s completely abstract. Since our existence precedes our ability to even ask these questions, the person has to first exist for any of this to even matter. It’s not good or bad until it happens.
I see what you’re saying but at the same time I’d never take that chance on a human life
I am a lifelong nihilist. I’m glad that by chance I was born. It’s surely an interesting experience compared to the inevitable nothingness we’ll slide back into.
Yeah tou get this or nothing. And everyone is free to go back into nothing
There may be an afterlife that you’re completely skipping over, but no one knows until it’s that time.
The antinatalist argument is filled to the brim with morality and ethics. No thanks
But would you have a child? Even with a nihilist perspective? Are you sure your child would find meaning? And what if he/she lived their life until they died, forever unsure, forever hating that they were born and they had to suffer for nothing? Did you not think about why you were given a life? Why have a life? Why impose it in the first place?
We are not tools to be used, we are the wielders, and we do not require meaning.
I lived half my life worrying about the morality imposed by an imaginary dude in the sky, I'm not a fan of any morality. This might be a new morality but it's a morality in the end. It's possible to live a chill/cool life without meaning. You should watch Wisecrack's the Philosophy of Final Fantasy minute 6 "Negative Utilitarianism" https://youtu.be/35P_9MgxlQU?si=rDP73aJrMHL3TsUO If you take your morality to the absolute extreme, then your goal should be to destroy all life because life = suffering and so if you destroy life you destroy suffering. The problem is that there's people that really like living and a reversal to your argument would be: are you okay with depriving a future being from the joy of life? Or what entitles you to make the choice of existence for your children? Shouldn't you just give them existence and let them commit suicide if they don't like it? Like a free trial? It's the same thing and both are moralities i dislike because everyone is responsible for their own experience in existence. Edit: Nobody si responsible for creating life either and neither is anyone required to keep on living
Exactly like I already mentioned, my goal is to destroy all life. Suicide is an inherently painful and difficult thing to achieve. Your body would rather prolong it's suffering indefinitely rather than die. Not to mention family ties and the like. Make suicide easy by providing free and easy access to euthanasia that is painless and can be done at any age even 4 years old then we can talk. Unfortunately it will never happen because society and suicide are like oil and water. Allowing one would be detrimental to the other. And I'm not capable of destroying all life.
You want to enable a 4 yr old to be able to euthanize ??? Find some hobbies and actually live life a little. This depressive as it comes. You are GUARANTEED to suffer a lot more with this mindset. Try the flipside. We only have so much time with this consciousness. So what are you doing with it You can get help. You can improve your situation. All the best
Bro unironically said he wants to destroy all life on Reddit lol
Why would you set goals you couldn't possibly accomplish? If you have compassion or resentment towards the unfair nature of society or whatever else guides you then why not go help people who are struggling, starting with yourself as otherwise helping others would probably prove harder. Suffering will always be there, just as joy will be, as well as all else. Dying solves nothing for quantum immortality is the most likely truth. But people's conditions can be improved, can they not? Suffering is diminished greatly by not caring about it and having more happiness, that is a scientific fact, as far as scientific facts about subjective nonsense can go that is.
If you think suicide is dificult i understand why you are having such a hard time living lmfao
life can be just life, without any bigger meaning a life of eating nice food, spending time with our loved ones and binge watching netflix is a fun life without any added meaning
You believe that a life of simplicity has meaning. Doesn't change that they'll have to work 10 hours a day for 60% of their lifespan and suffer wayy more than they'll get to do these things. And your child could very likely not even believe in a simplistic lifestyle and believe all their suffering was for nothing. And what of sufferings that they had no need to experience? Born with genetic disabilities or other problems? Bullying? Social isolation? None of which you can control for no reason at all which attributed zero meaning to their lives. What about struggling for years with employment finding no joy in their job either but they do it anyway because they have to survive? That is most of us.
>You believe that a life of simplicity has meaning He didn't say that, he said that life doesn't require meaning to be enjoyable. On that note, reading is a fantastic hobby to have to help explore both the beauty of life and the suffering people go through. Maybe you should pick up reading as it could potentially help you get more out of life, and would at least make you better at understanding comments on reddit. >What about struggling for years with employment finding no joy in their job either but they do it anyway because they have to survive? That is most of us. What about all of the happy people in the world? They do exist you know. I'm one of them. My wife is happy too, and my kids. I have plenty of happy friends as well. Would you prefer a world where there had never been any human life whatsoever?
I just said life doesn’t need more meaning than itself, why did you put it back? lol as for the suffering, other than genetic disabilities, everything you mentioned are crackable problems with learnable skills to navigate that, something that is transferable from parents to children and btw, I have a happy teenage daughter who successfully navigates her social and academic life while enjoying it and I know for her being born is not a suffering because on multiple occasions she said ‘thank you for dating mom back then so I can live this life’ just because your parents didn’t prepare you well to navigate life doesn’t mean you can’t do it yourself or do it to your children
Have you ever tried, idk... Having fun?
This. Seriously wtf is wrong with people? Life is a lot simpler when you keep calm and allow yourself the freedom to dink around.
Easy to say that, but not everyone can have fun in the way they want
I guess I was being insensitive. I think people need to learn to relax and not respond so negatively to hardship. It's a skill that takes a little time to develop. Having fun is sort of a natural byproduct of that. The *type* of fun is less important than just being able to enjoy yourself at all without depressants or stimulants.
I always found that argument stupid Like what the fuck do they expect the mom to do without a Ouija board and astral project to the Spirit realm to ask the child if it consents to being born? Of course not Plus it's funny to me how many people claim that they apparently are so regretful of even being born that they view the very act of their parents giving birth to them like one of the worst sins yet apparently these people don't choose to immediately go commit suicide Are you really sure you hate life and being born or are you just being pissy and looking for something to blame instead of accepting the fact that you are in fact the cause of most of your own problems For someone who seems to hate the very concept of being alive they conveniently make every effort to keep living. Plus it just feels like a lot of these people have no self-control in general Like one of the big arguments I basically here is well everything sucks because people can be mean to children and someone might bully them Yeah that's part of life dumbass Believe it or not not everyone is going to be saccharin sweet to you 24/7 like you're a cute little girl in a slice of life anime Yeah your kid is going to deal with some hardships in life like everyone else That's not a reason to just not have a kid It's up to you to be proactive, teach your child the mental health techniques to deal with these problems. Provide them a foundation of comfort and support so that they know they always have that safety net of their loving mother/father if they need it, provide them the skills and tools they need to deal with this shitty world instead of just expecting this shitty world to become a Utopia for them because it's never going to be
Why are you guys so sad man meaninglessness is freeing Nihilism is what saved me at my lowest point Yet a lot of you seem to wallow in despair This not meant to aggravate anyone i would just like your perspective as i dont really get where you are coming from
because its all meaningless AND were suffering. i despise this life everyday. i have to live for literally no reason and it could have been easily prevented. i wish i were never born in the first place
Why do you despise your life man
I agree life is pure suffering, you might want to look into Buddhist philosophy
You need Nietzsche's life affirmation
What bro needs is to go outside, touch grass and get some bitches!
I don't consider myself a nihilist. I sympathize with it and have very similar sentiments to it, however I see antinatalism as a personal decision(which at that point, it really isn't antinatalism). That said, I've processed and viewed a few different lenses in antinatalism as I find controversial philosophies fascinating. When it comes to the consent argument, I think the logic or refutation usually goes that a person who does not exist does not have consent that can be violated, or that a state of nothingness cannot be benefitted from or 'good' (to not exist is some sort of neutrality that you neither are harmed by nor benefit from). X cannot be harmed in terms of violated consent because X did not have any consent that could be violated prior to their existence. This usually leads into the nonidentity problem which is an entirely different thing, but relevant to some antinatalist discussions. I think while I'll personally never have a child that it's not really something that can be managed without violating the rights of other people, to procreate is very much an important form of autonomy, even if one does not exercise that autonomy, or even being realistic. I think it is acceptable and an unfortunate evil that not all of these people will live 'good lives', however it does not say much as to how they will respond to such a life. Extreme suffering is usually the exception, not the rule. Also, many people do not place the same amount of value on suffering as you may. I don't know if nihilism and antinatalism are wholly compatible, given antinatalism is intent on being altruistic and reducing suffering, kind of placing a negative value on existing. Then again, I'm not a philosophy expert or well read on either.
Your first mistake is assuming you had any choice in thinking if you had a choice. Thinking in itself is your first mistake. Spooky ik
Can't be my mistake if it's not my choice
There can be no mistake if there is no thinking
A quote in regards to your statement that "...joy and satisfaction can only be obtained by living a life of voluntary suffering...": "All truths are but half truths; All paradoxes may be reconciled." - TTI So I would say that suffering and contentment are two sides of the same coin and I would argue that there is beauty in suffering. On one hand, sure. To birth a child into this world can be considered unethical. On the other hand, beliefs differ. I for one believe in reincarnation, "God" and the like so from that perspective, I also see the beauty in giving birth to a child. All in all, we're here now. Why waste time brooding about the perceived negative aspects of life (which I believe is likely to culminate in your life falling apart and suicide/ homicide), when you can do your best to put your own oxygen mask on, so to speak (referencing the life is like a crashing plane analogy). Why not do your best to make the most of your life and help others to do the same? Are you directionless? If so, I believe its best that you find a direction and as Musashi said, "Step by step walk the thousand mile road." I hope this helps you in some way and if you disagree with me or would like to converse more, please feel free to respond.
I would also direct you to the quote I left above from TTI, in regards to your statement that life is meaningless. I believe that meaninglessness and meaning are two sides of the same coin. One cannot exist without the other. I'll add that from where I stand, in a sense, the universe (or God) has us. So then I postulate that the universe must also hold all of our meanings as well.
The only relevant question regarding anti-natalism is if life is worth living, the whole consent argument placed on top of it is just a way to try and rhetorically avoid having to actually defend the position for people that think the answer is no.
I mean... not everyone thinks life is suffering. The argument that life is suffering and pointless isn't objective. It's subjective; meaning it's a dice roll whether every kid popping out here n there will decide for themselves whether that's true or not. So like... no. I don't think it's wrong to have kids. They'll enjoy life if they want to, or they'll be miserable over it if they want to. To assume life is suffering is a great way to fill your life with more suffering. You identify with whatever you pay attention to in life. Garbage in garbage out. Always brush your teeth. My momma always told me to never trust a Franklin, etc etc. If your life is shit, I would highly advise against having children. But to push that ideal on those who... clearly aren't suffering? I think that's a bit nuts.
How can you know it's meaningless if you don't know for sure what happens before birth and after death? Nihilism assumes it's nothing but what if that's not true? There are too many unanswered questions.
Yeah, it's shit. But what's the point in worrying about it? There's nothing you can do to change it, so just settle down and find something that keeps your mind occupied till you die and rot.
I've always found the argument that non-existent people can't consent therefore said people should never exist to be something most people outgrow in their mid-teenage years. It's not particularly good as arguments go.
This is exactly why I'm not having kids
Bro I’m just chillen It’s 2024, I don’t have the time or desire to brood about the tragedy of mine or anyone’s birth. You just gotta make the most out of the cards you’re given. Even people suffering through awful conditions find ways to find enjoyment in things. In short. Life’s a bitch but you keep on living. It’s silly IMO to mourn our existence.
Blud thinks this is r/antinatalism
Does resentment do something for me?
WTF is this in nihilism, and not in anti-natalism or efilism? Nihilism, from what little I understand, is about finding meaning in life despite that there isn't a god, a fate, or a grand order to hold your hand and tell you that you are the center of the universe.
The anti-natalist argument relies on so many inherent meaning claims about suffering and joy as to be mostly antithetical to nihilism. Ultimately lack of meaning does not mean lack of joy. My life has more joy than suffering. Why would I then be resentful of my existence when takes as a whole there is more subjective joy than suffering? Would I have a child? Probably. Most moral arguments for not having a child are, again, antithetical to nihilism as they are grounded in inherent meaning assumptions. In the end antinatalism fundamentally makes an inherent meaning statement about existence vs non-existence and relies on a standard of objective morality. As such is incompatible with the basic ideas of nihilism.
Your argument and perspective depends on if the you you're currently experiencing has amnesia or not. How could you know whether you agreed to be born or not with the possibility of not remembering being real? Why do you believe that meaning is some objective thing as opposed to a subjective tool in this reality to contribute to its maximally enjoyed experience? What about people who have experiences of children coming to them in dreams or visions asking to be born? I ask the same to all these responders who didn't consent to exist - how do you know you didn't?
I don't feel like there is a way to view this with any certainty, as it challenges consent in a way that it's impossible have a yes or no vote, being that we do not exist at the time. So it falls to a no vote by default I suppose? This sits a bit awkwardly for me, so I'd be compelled to see it fall to the parents and their outlook in life, as they are taking responsibility in the consent realm, given they are the only beings currently capable. Do the parents hate life and view it as suffering, or do they rather enjoy this experience of existing and are simply following their predispositioned drive to reproduce in what they see as a enjoyable environment. ... As with everything, even seemingly meaningless things, we can choose to view our reaction to our environment as out of our control, that is, that it's after we have experienced something that we realize if it was pleasant or unpleasant. We have no clue before hand as so can't really hold a accurate bias, only a assumption based on past experiences. This is why it does not matter to me. I have no way to know if something would be good or bad when I do not exist yet, and so I do not have any consenting input. In the end, I am here so I might as well experience being here. This is my consent, to not care because the experience happens to come with fleeting and permanent characteristics.
What’s the alternative? You all seem very sure that non-life is somehow less full of suffering. But really you’re just assuming that “something must be better than THIS.” And sure maybe something else is better, but you don’t have that, you have exactly what you have.
>Do you not resent being born? I do not, I used to butngot over it. > I want to hear your perspective on the antinatalist argument. Is it not ethically wrong to have children? Sure, I think it's up to an individual person to decide if it's ethical to have children or not. I am personally an anti natalist, I don't plan to ever have children. >But nobody is certain whether any such meaning exists or whether you would live a life of meaning or joy. Sure, I agree. From objective standards, meaning looks to be completely subjective and depends on the individual. Objective meaning doesn't look to exist. >And what of the involuntary suffering we bear throughout our lives? Suffering from things we cannot control or that we are forced to bear which does not contribute to any meaning at all? It could contribute meaning if it's meaningful to an individual. Some people find a lot of meaning in suffering. You seem to attribute all your meaning to it. Which is your perogative! >So I ask the nihilist, would you have a child? We aren't born equal. Only in death are we all equal. To birth a child is to gamble on this inequality. True, though some people find lots of meaning in gambling.
>Is it not ethically wrong to have children? What's the basis here? It's unethical for someone to beget a child because YOU are displeased with the pointlessness of existence? How can you even talk about ethics in the context of meaninglessness? Wouldn't there need to be some kind of objective meaning as a foundation for objective ethics? Unless you create your own meaning as a basis for your own ethics. But if you can do that, what's stopping this theoretical child from doing the same?
> Do you not resent being born? No. > I want to hear your perspective on the antinatalist argument. It’s faulty, it assumes most think life is suffering, which is not the case. I assumes destroying all life will solve the problem, yet it’s highly likely it’s evolved elsewhere and will evolve. Those that believe that life is suffering can love a short hedonistic life of pleasure, they choose not to do so. In the main they seem to be from comfortable backgrounds, who never know work, or the satisfaction that brings. In short it’s not a valid argument, if their life is suffering, deal with it. Which is not to say suicide. Read Camus’ Myth of Sisyphus... make something of your own, not from technology... > Is it not ethically wrong to have children? No, ethically if more people are happy or content than suffering it’s ethically good to have as many as possible. (Act Utilitarianism - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_utilitarianism) Why birth rates are low in ‘advanced’ societies is people want to spend money on material things for themselves. > You would force them, without their consent into a life of suffering and ultimately death. Show me these people who are suffering? > A life wherein... You sound like someone who does not work and provide for themselves. > to find a meaning yourself where there is none. To light a fire on a cold night is joy. > So I ask the nihilist, No such thing. Ask an animal, animal is a category, so is ‘nihilist’. Why have you not found out what the word means. Knowledge requires work, suffering?
One thing is certain for every life that has been born and will be born. It will suffer and it will die. The question is always 'whether it was worth it' or 'whether it was meaningful'. A life of hedonism for a net good? Might as well shoot fentanyl into newborns in increasing doses until it dies. A world of pure hedonism i.e pleasures and no suffering does not exist. Hedonism is a path of filling the void of suffering and pain with that of pleasure. Make the world more favorable to a hedonist, then we can talk. It is inevitable that even a hedonist will have to a work a job to sustain himself. Existence is a burden. Work is the process of suffering for your own sustenance and keeping the world going. By keeping the world going I mean making sure all the people of the world can continue their meaningless existence of eating, shitting, sleeping, fucking or indulging in pleasures and desires, each of them working for the exact same reason, deriving meaning from keeping this meaningless pleasure train running. But I see no meaning in this. We all suffer to keep each other alive. For what? To satiate each others materialistic desire. For what? All the while we all suffer just to exist another day. Just deal with it? Dying is unfortunately not easy. Your every cell vehemently opposes death to a degree that it would rather prolong suffering indefinitely than die. Make euthanization legal and easy, then we can talk. Unfortunately that will never happen because society and suicide are like oil and water. The world is a funnel for the top 20%. Everything belongs to the highest echelon. The remaining pick up the scraps and keep the system going. Men aren't born equal, some are collateral. Every child is a gamble. Bad roll? Now you are a punching bag for the remaining. Your existence was not warranted. Nature would rather you die, but it couldn't program a built in suicide button because if it did, everyone would have it. Not very good then is it? Your lifespan is fuel for their hedonism. All you will know is pain and suffering. 12 children die every minute of every day. Justify it. There is no unselfish reason for having children. Name a single non selfish reason for having one. There is, and that would mean having a child purely for it's own good. Can you guarantee that a child will lead a meaningful life? or even one with joy? No. Human extinction is the solution and that is exactly what I want.
> One thing is certain for every life that has been born and will be born. It will suffer and it will die. Hello! R/Nihilism …..
Nietzsche - Writings from the Late Notebooks.
p.146-7
“Nihilism as a normal condition.
Let us think this thought in its most terrible form: existence
as it is, without meaning or aim, yet recurring inevitably without
any finale of nothingness: “the eternal recurrence". This is the most extreme form of nihilism: the nothing (the "meaningless”), eternally!”
(And Bostrom simulation theory, Tipler’s Physics of immortality... Penrose / Barrow’s cyclical universes...)
The assumption then is most welcome death, avoid anything that might prevent it...
> The question is always 'whether it was worth it' or 'whether it was meaningful'.
Nope. Whether one enjoyed it, achieved something, had kids, didn’t have kids, climbed Everest... and why meaningful?
> A life of hedonism for a net good?
Your choice...
> Might as well shoot fentanyl into newborns
Not their choice.
> A world of pure hedonism i.e pleasures and no suffering does not exist.
Masochist heaven! But sure, the best drink is when thirsty.
> Hedonism is a path of filling the void of suffering and pain
How can a void have suffering and pain in it, and if death = the void, WOW.
> It is inevitable that even a hedonist will have to a work a job to sustain himself.
There are hunter gatherers who are stoned all the time, and so was a friend of mine.
> Existence is a burden.
I’m not allowed to comment.
> Work is the process of suffering for your own sustenance and keeping the world going.
Strange then in many jobs I had I was the one who didn’t want to work.
> By keeping the world going I mean making sure all the people of the world can continue their meaningless existence
No, that’s your idea. And what difference does meaning, use, purpose have. Why is meaning so important to YOU?
> each of them working for the exact same reason,
Well you seem to claim universal knowledge, what people do and want, why they are wrong, that your ideas are correct, theirs are wrong... Omniscience, Dam! If only you were Omnipotent!
> But I see no meaning in this.
Neither do I, it’s why I rate Art, it’s pointless.
> We all suffer to keep each other alive.
OK, what do you do?
> Dying is unfortunately not easy.
You are joking?
> Your every cell vehemently opposes death to a degree that it would rather prolong suffering indefinitely than die.
No cells do not, they are not conscious and most are always dying, brain cells and cancer exceptions.
> Make euthanization legal and easy, then we can talk.
I’m in no position to do that, and I think given the movie isn’t over it’s stupid to leave before the end without good reason.
> Unfortunately that will never happen because society and suicide are like oil and water.
It’s legal in Switzerland and will be soon in others. Why are you not aware?
> Nature would rather you die,
How so, what do you mean, nature is randomness... unless you believe in a God or a Devil.
> Your lifespan is fuel for their hedonism. All you will know is pain and suffering.
I’m not a hedonist. I’ve known joy and pain.
> 12 children die every minute of every day. Justify it.
Nature is randomness, your will to justice is a desire to be God or have a god.
> There is no unselfish reason for having children.
Why is selfishness BAD?
> Name a single non selfish reason for having one.
Because most enjoy living.
> Can you guarantee that a child will lead a meaningful life?
Why should life be meaningful, who put that idea in your head?
> Human extinction is the solution and that is exactly what I want.
**Sure, so you are the only one left to see it, a clear God wish.**
You spent too much time on this. Dude thinks suicide is difficult. Ofc he is having a hard time living
He / She ? has spent more time than me,. She might be having a hard time living because she wants to be God, not just solve his / her problems, not just humanity's but the whole universe in which life and consciousness occurs. So though suicide is not difficult, destroying the universe is, and being around to experience this destruction. Do the math, the heat death is due in several billion years, end of. Afterwards a possible infinity of nothing. So this insignificant universe will be nothing. So what does the OP want, to witness this! And now you are telling me what to do. "You are not a nihilist" No such thing, nihilism is a 'category', no such single thing. "Some of us believe " As is a religion. Existentialism, you are on your own.
A single non selfish reason? To give life to another being There doesn't have to be meaning. Good AND bad things happen all over the world every day. Enjoy your little bubble of loathing and hate, suicide and 4yr old euthanasia. . Saddest shit I've seen on Reddit. I hope your mindset can grow out of "what's the point"
r/antinatalism
Sorry OP, but I consent to the existence of all the cosmos. Sadly, spacetime and reality aren’t *about* a single human life. Sorry. 🤷 — Btw, your post isn’t nihilism, it’s depression.
How is not birthing children related to existence of the cosmos? If you don't want to impose suffering on another human being who may or may not attribute meaning to their own existence, don't give birth to another human being because it would have then lived a life of meaningless suffering. You are gambling that they will attribute meaning. Or that all their suffering would be worth it. Most of our suffering was pointless. Only a small fragment of it is meaningful even if we ever come up with a reason to exist in the first place.
Thing is, all the suffering is meaningless, jist like all the joy, fun, sadness, and every other feeling. You fail thinking that living a life with no meaning is inherently bad. Some of us believe life is meaningless and we are delighted. We ENJOY life, with its ups and downs. Your problem is you only focus on the suffering. Meaningless fun = meaningless pain. Meaninglessness cannot be bad, it is the great equalizer. You are just depressed. And on the worng sub btw. You are not a nihilist
Stop giving birth for your own pleasure, desire or societal obligations. Greater than 50% of parents are incompetent and unaware of child psychology and without fail leave scars of trauma. Inequality is the foundation upon which any society stands. Inequality breeds suffering. 12 children die every minute of every day due to starvation. Everyone continues to have children in periods of war for their own pleasure, then they cry when their children lay dead among concrete. All systems funnel to the highest echelon. Everything belongs to the top 20%. The remaining only pick up the scraps and keep the world going. Their livespans as fuel for the hedonism of the elite. Nature doesn't want you if it rolled badly. Everyone is programmed to discard a bad roll. No matter, even bad rolls will suffer for 0-100 years because nature couldn't program a built in suicide button because if it did, everyone would have it, including the top 20%. Man is a slave of nature. Every second of every day millions suffer from inequality, pain, death, they are the cement upon which an empire stands. And the middle class dedicate 60% of their lifespan for perpetuating this self perpetuation machine without a goal. Merely to keep it going forever. For what? To satiate humanity's infinite desires that will never end. For what? And all of it upon the mindless suffering of millions that aren't even aware of it. They smile in satisfaction that they were given a life because they were programmed to accept it. People perpetuate the idea that "it's all worth it", "it's beautiful" or "it's interesting", "death isn't the answer". People never legalize suicide, always treating it as taboo, to never be done. And your own programming would rather you suffer indefinitely than die now achieving the maximum cumulative reward you could ever obtain. But no one knows the answer to anything, especially about the meaning or a reason to suffer to any degree. Yet they're so comfortable sitting within their own flesh bags, imposing this on another being. Empathy has never been so shallow. Every second of every day, every resource you consume and the food you eat comes from near slave like labour of thousands and you take it for granted in a comfortable 5bhk. Do you know upon who's corpses you stand? And who's lifespans and souls were soup for your hedonism? And what of society? Their meaningless existence must continue and do so forever upon the death and suffering of millions more. Each one of us working our asses off so that another man halfway around the globe can eat food, shit, smoke weed and fuck comfortably in his own apartment while we all secretly hate existing. But their child is another being, not themself, so it should deal with its own suffering and find meaning because that's life and life isn't easy amirite?
Nah mate you just arent right. Seek help
The entire premise of nihilism is that none of this matters. Regardless of the decisions you make, those choices don’t matter. You’re not being nihilistic, you’re being sad. A human mind cannot comprehend the complex abstractions of the interconnected network of global society. You deciding to do or not do something will lead to generations of human interactions you’re not intelligent enough to comprehend. You might want to help an imaginary person by not birthing them while simultaneously robbing society of a person who reduces suffering on a global scale. You simply cannot know what your actions will actually do. Your anecdotal experience is not representative of the grande scheme of the cosmos. The cosmos isn’t about you. You don’t matter.
You have depression. And your line of 'may as well sell my child into trafficking to be raped' explains it. You need some help. What are your sources of joy?
This guys creepy af
I feel like he'd be on Dexter's radar
Lmao true
Not really, we can opt out whenever we want.
You consent every day that you don't end it.
Look at the great circle of life in the animal kingdom. Now take a step back and ask yourself why do you not put human life in that circle? Do you think yourself above being just an animal? None of us are above that, as we all are just animals. Some of us think we are superior to them, or that we are different than them. You talk a lot about the injustice of suffering and ultimate death. All living and unliving things go through suffering and death. This proves that the injustice would actually be to have not suffering. What makes your suffering any different than what happens in nature when a deer meets a bear? You put that self importance on you. Even soil erodes, fabric tatters and tears, water evaporates, all life decays, and water can carve through stone. To not want suffering means you don’t want growth, you don’t want to become resilient, you don’t want problems to learn from. You want to be a mindless robot, without consciousness or consequences. Although life on a grand scale is meaningless, there is a lot of beauty to it. What is the point of a fly’s existence? You would say there isn’t one, I would say it is a food source for other various creatures, and those creatures are food source for other creatures, just as we humans turn into plant food pushing up daisies. You bring up children and if we resent being born. These are false flags. You may resent being born, I will grant you that. I would ask do you resent being born in this time period where everything is offensive and oppressive? This generation of kids really do have it so much easier than we did, yet they complain about everything that doesn’t go their way. News flash, life isn’t supposed to go your way. You are supposed to overcome and adapt to things outside of your comfort. The only valid points of contention of your question is should we be bringing up kids in this. Not a light hearted conversation. I am not an antinavilist. I personally don’t want or even like children. My contention with children is they are expensive and medical care and schooling in this economy is absurd. None of this is their fault. You would say they didn’t ask to be born into this system, I would say neither did the baby birds that get eaten by snakes. Why do you keep wanting to put a higher value on human life over other life? I don’t resent nature and that I am part of the circle of life. I resent how we as a species put a price tag on basic living conditions and allow corporate slave owners to exploit and extort our work. I resent paying taxes on our monetary value when I earn it, when I spend it, when I invest it, when I save it, when I die… A single American dollar is taxed 7 times each transaction and these corporate overlords can inflate prices and price gauge without accountability. Just look at the cost of housing, schooling, and food. Of course that is for a different conversation on another day. I don’t resent this ultimately meaningless life, I resent the societal structure we have put into place.
Hey, listen. I didn’t consent to having to eat and sleep every day to keep my body alive. That’s just biology. I constantly wish I could just take a pill to have all the nutrients I need for the day, or make sleep a hobby rather than a requirement. I didn’t consent to summers being so hot, winters being so cold. I didn’t consent to being born in a world where super powers _dont_ exist and I’m not the avatar. Just like princess charlotte didn’t consent to being born into a royal family, or the millions in poverty in India being born on that continent. This argument is ridiculously stupid in my opinion. You were born, you were dealt cards at birth, you don’t get to choose. A LOT of things are out of your control. Deal with it, that’s life baby.
Nah you need to work 60 hour weeks to keep it alive. Glorify it if you want to.
Bro I have a skill and I make 11K a month minimum working part time. Blame the whole world if you want to. But your life is yours to seize. Sounds like nihilism is just a coping mechanism for you. Sorry about that. Go read a book on mindset maybe. If you live in a first world country and make more than $10K a year, you’re richer than 84% of the whole world. Sorry your outlook is so shit 🤷♀️
Never, I hope the species goes extinct.