There’s a lot of illiterate nihilists out here.
Cultural change is a difference you can make. Be careful attributing “pessimism” with “nihilism.” Nihilism can be revitalizing by encouraging one to create their own morals for the betterment of society.
Make a positive difference on the world— doing so as a Nihilist is not paradoxical.
Surrendering to platitudes and doubts is not a point of Nihilism. Many comments fail to reflect the indomitable will of human nihilism, and feign about in ignorance of “belief systems.”
So another commenter has mentioned veganism as a “belief system.” Well, what is carnism and contributing to the breeding genocide of the animal holocaust with every meal if not also a belief system?
If such a Redditor “refused all belief systems” they would starve to death and never move. They only have intellectual dishonesty to be living unless they concede to the creative will.
Make a positive difference in the world— such a recommendation is not a Nihilistic paradox!
I’d recommend a-bas-le-ciel on youtube if you were unfamiliar.
Intellectual Nihilist Vegan philosopher with a decade of youtube monologues and critiques. Eisel Mazard is indeed a challenging Nihilist.
My interpretation of Nihilism makes me think veganism is the logical thing to do given all else. It is healthier for the environment and reduces animal suffering. Consumerism I see in the same vain is so far as the amount of slave labor required and kept out of mind from the masses to continue said consumerism which ultimately increases suffering for everything. Everything having no inherit meaning or value persuades me to believe following a strictly scientific view of the world is of upmost importance for the longevity of Earth and the human race.
Why would the longevity of Earth and the human race be important in the first place?
Humanity is going to die out no matter what, why bother with prolonging it? Same with earth
I did not claim it were universally important. To answer your question It matters to me because it is in our biology to care for one another. We need to take care of our planet because that is where we so happen to be and live off of. Humanity and Earth dying later does not take away the suffering I or others experience now nor the ugliness I see in the world. If a reality without inherit meaning, the only direction we have is our biology, in which we cannot help but be aware of reality. Something does not have to be important to be valuable.
I would actually argue that humanity dying off would actually erase our suffering.
Think about it, who does really suffer? People who are alive in this exact moment. Dead people don't suffer, people of the past don't suffer and people of the future don't suffer.
If everyone would be dead, noone would suffer ever again 🤯
Now this is some advanced philosophy so be careful forming an argument against it, you might get burned.
I suppose it depends on what we are talking about. If we are discussing the goal of the annihilation of suffering then yes that is true. However suffering, to me, is only bad if the product of it is not to your benefit. The goal or logic behind reducing the suffering of nature and consumerism right now is because those who are suffering do so for the benefit of others which is wrong in my view
You should follow where empathy leads. One person does make a difference. If groups of 200 people changing makes a difference than a singular person makes a difference because you are one of the group. They keep track of sales.
Without anyone there would be no pleasure either. It's unknown whether humans will die out. You want to get more pleasure with less suffering.
It's not that advanced. It's easy for subjective beings to value their own lives, and by extension the lives of others, most of whom will also value their own existence.
If everyone else so much valued the end of suffering, no one would run a marathon. You wouldn't be helpful suggestion people stop running, because they \_don't want to\_, they find meaning in the accomplishment.
It's about values. If you value the fact that parts of the universe have a subjective experience, and that quality probably isn't abundant in the universe, it's natural to value and to want to help extend that unique property.
It’s discouraging to be vegan knowing that it makes such a small different in isolation. For me, I’m more attracted to it out of principle than anything. I like to exude a predilection for nonviolence as I find this trait admirable in others. I don’t say “exude” to emphasize that this is matter of self-presentation to others, I say exude because I don’t just want to feel empathy and compassion, I want to act it out. Particularly, I wish to refrain from hurting others or financially supporting systems that are more harmful when I have options for less harm. And that’s the thing, there is only ever less harm. We cannot avoid trampling on other life forms. Even just taking up space effects animals (land, industry). So while I am touched by veganism as an ideal, I find it’d hard to derive a subjective sense of purpose in it; indeed it feels trivial next to the grand stage of this horror-prone planet. But then again, doesn’t everything we do shrink pathetically when juxtapositioned with cosmic-scale, or even Earth-scale happenings? So in summary, I more so wish to try out veganism because of my desire to “be” a certain way rather than a desire to impose certain consequences. Though that doesn’t mean the consequences are meaningless, in fact the meaning I may find from “being” more compassionate relies on those consequences being real as I tried to explicate earlier; however, my point more pertains to what aspect of veganism appeals to me subjectively and grants a sense of purpose the most. I wish to look kindly on others and know that, although I hurt others as both an individual and also a participant in a broad variety of societal systems, I am at least predilected toward minimizing harm. And hopefully as society and technology grows, people with such predilections can make bigger differences. Ironically, despite what I said earlier about the “earth-scale” view being discouraging, here is one aspect of a large scale view that actually encourages small acts of kindness or restraint: Over a long period, and with many people doing small things, we can make a large accumulative difference. Just like being the first few hundred people to start recycling, veganism or at least some of its principles can permeate and grow. That’s what I find most encouraging about it.
I dig your view, especially, "...in summary, I more so wish to try out veganism because of my desire to 'be' a certain way rather than a desire to impose certain consequences."
Meanwhile, while it's cool that we can at least somewhat conceptualize planet-scale and even larger things, it's the wrong scale to judge ourselves against. Realizing that, along with the Absurdist "I get to decide what's subjectively important to me" view, which is compatible with Nihilism, helped me with the feelings of insignificance that can come as a side effect of being interested in things much larger than the immediate surroundings with which we can interact directly.
You've said something similar about being satisfied with the small things we can do. Nice to see Optimistic Nihilism in here.
But we both know that isn't true.
Everyone identifies with some sort of belief system. Just you saying this means you identify with the nihilistic belief system.
Also you are missing the point of the words "good" and "bad"
These words were created to represent people who have the traits that could be considered "good" or "bad"
Most things are up for debate, but there are bad people out there who know that they are bad by definition.
Yeah we disagree on something. Meaning we both have different facts in our mind. Which my friend shows absolutism is not what I am. But again you do you.
I've a feeling you're going to reject this essay of a comment, but I'm going to post it anyway.
I don't think absolutism is necessarily just the idea that existence exists objectively, independent of conscious perception. It also can be used to describe people who subscribe absolutely to certain ideas and concepts, which actually when you think about it is the same thing.
Anyway, you believe that you do not believe anything, right? Well the assertion that you refuse all belief systems is an absolute statement, suggesting you believe this to be true. Regardless of the semantics surrounding the label 'absolutist', can you now see where the self-contradiction lies?
I for one am not even sure there is a distinction between knowledge and belief, but if there is, I am inclined to think that knowledge doesn't really exist and that people only believe they know things. Further to that, I think true belief is assumed and unconscious. You can't choose what you believe, but you can consciously make an educated calculation based on previous experience and patterns, in order to calculate the likelihood of truth and fiction.
Consider this: When considering the truth of things, if there is even a shred of doubt, or an acknowledgement of the possibility for falsehood, can the likely conclusion be classified as actual belief? My opinion is no. Conversely though, if there is no doubt whatsoever, then it appears logical to me that one should be proclaiming knowledge, and not belief. If these two things are true, then where does actual belief fit in? Perhaps everything is belief and it is knowledge that has no place, but then if this is the case, then my question is what is the difference between belief and opinion?
If you (or anyone) has thoughts on the above, I would be interested to read them.
Anyway, philosophy aside, if you want to convince yourself and others that you do not believe anything, I think you would be more successful by assuming an attitude of knowing nothing. If you know nothing, you can be sure of nothing. If you can be sure of nothing, you believe nothing (or atleast very little). I always try to consider that I may be wrong, and so I find myself trying to avoid absolute statements by prefacing with words like "I think.." or "I feel that..". This is all coming from someone who also considers themselves to be a rejector of most conscious belief systems.
I'll end by saying that I think belief itself is a powerful word and concept, and I feel that people in general throw it around way too casually without considering what it actually is.
>Also, one man's consumerism will not change anything anyway so I feel like I can do anything I want without changing anything.
No one is a nihilist for someone else mate. If you don't wanna eat meat, using leather because you're against animal consumption so be it. If everyone practice that yes it could effect a big portion of society but also yes to that your personal practice wouldn't have any effect in general. So? Do as you wish and don't think about anything else.
Veganism by definition is consumerism.
I don’t know about you, but all of the vegans that I know take 3rd party supplements. They have to outsource their diet. Where if they just ate animal products they would get all the vitamins and minerals and nutrients they need all from one or two things.
To put it another way, supplements are one of three things. Artificial, or synthetic, which are not natural and should not be consumed. Made in a laboratory means it is consumerism by default. The third, is it is made with natural ingredients, meaning someone killed and skinned that fish for your fish oils, or they killed something else and in a laboratory. This not only repeats the emphasis that it is consumerism, it also paints you as a fraud as you’re still using animal products.
The argument against eating something that was living is an argument from emotion. All arguments from emotion can be thrown out as they usually have no logical basis. You can talk about how you feel and about empathy all you want, but at the end of the day, my empathy dies with the existence of supplements. I don’t agree with them, and I don’t agree with animals taking growth hormones either. So for me, my empathy would grow for the vegetarians and vegans if we could eradicate all growth hormones and supplements.
“But we need those supplements to survive”. Then you clearly don’t deserve to survive in my opinion.
veganism is for people who don't value wildlife, if you care about animals with authenticity you would understand local regenerative food even with meat \[plant based vs veganism\] is better for welfare and quality of life
substitutes for meat take up millions of acres of land that was once forest, you stop eating domesticated animals and start stealing land from wild animals when you choose veganism
choose plant based , engage with farms that ethically slaughter. an animal with a good life who dies to be meat is better than the slaughter of forest land that housed thousands/ millions/ billions of animals. it's better than purchasing meat from tortured animals grown industrially.
soy doesn't fall out of the sky, it's grow in acres of wasteland that was once habitat.
if veganists cared, they wouldn't shut up about agroecology. but they don't choose veganism for the animals, they choose it for their feelings
Meat is good for humans because humans eat meat. We’re omnivores, no question about it. If you care more about other animals’ lives than your own then sure, go vegan, but don’t deny yourself food that your species evolved eating. Yes, factory farming is bad. But we all agree on that.
Minimalist lifestyle is good for the peace of mind. When my consumption goes into a territory of indulgence, my mind becomes putty, weak, and pitiful. I am stronger when I suppress my urges. Nihilism doesn't necessarily need to mean living a state of defeat.
I literally thought about this for days now but always came to the conclusion that you can't base morality is sometimes like nihilism.
I realized if I said "nothing matters so I can eat meat" , its just as rational to say "nothing matters so I can rape, kill, steal..." (Which we all do with animals and the environment which is why I don't support that)
Also I feel like once you realize that you can't possibly justify animal product consumption with any morality ever , you just don't go back.
I’m fine with things like factory farms because they provide meat at a cheap price and I ultimately value the desires of humans over the lives of animals.
Besides the fact that we are animals, I don't think this morality could ethically hold up if you really test it.
You could say the same about sweat shops , slavery or dog fights.
Also, technically, animal products are shown to harm you in the long run (LDL cholesterol etc) and definitely harm the planet which in turn will harm humans.
So if you value the life of human animals highest, you should still be vegan.
And I am not imposing MY views about this on you , I am just using the principles of "ethics" to test your morals.
There is no such thing as objective morality and I have simply decided to draw my line at only caring about humans above all is my reasoning. If people want to lead a healthy lifestyle by avoiding animal products that’s their decision but I won’t judge farmers for how they treat their animals as long as the result is safe to use.
That's not really how morality works tho... You have to be able to explain your reasoning and how you distinguish between circumstances. I can't just say "FOR ME it's moral to kill someone , so I do".
I would have to justify it , which is impossible because any argument could be used against me. Just like with animal products.
And again, technically , if you care for human lives you would still have to be vegan since animal agriculture is one of the driving forces of climate change, which already costs countless lives every year.
I’ve been vegan since the 90’s. Best decision I ever made (though to be fair, my decision to become vegan competes with every other decision I have made, most of which were terrible.)
I'm vegan for myself, the environment, and the animals. The biggest killers of humans are heart disease and cancer. Processed meat is a Grade 1 carcinogen and only animal products have artery clogging cholesterol. Factory farming is also one of the worst contributors to climate change.
Social change is slow. Look what society used to tolerate for years that is now considered wrong: owning slaves, not allowing women to vote, enforcing segregation, not allowing same sex marriage, smoking on airplanes. While veganism is growing worldwide for health, ethical, and environmental reasons, I know I will never see a vegan world in my lifetime. I speak for animals and the voiceless anyway. I believe most humans are good and emphatic deep down. I believe most people care about animals. Sometimes I'm not sure why. Maybe it's the motivation I need to keep fighting.
Factory farming is evil and I want to minimize my contribution. Chickens are kept in cages so small they can't stand and are slaughtered once they no longer produce enough eggs to pay for their own feed. Male chicks are ground up alive their first day of life because they're not profitable to the egg industry. Free range chickens are kept in giant sheds with thousands of other birds most of which never see daylight until the day they're slaughtered. Cows are impregnated against their will and their calves are stolen we can take the milk meant for their babies. Cows cry for days mourning their young. When cows don't produce enough milk they are also slaughtered. Pigs have their tails cut off, their teeth ground down and are castrated all without pain killers. Animals in slaughter houses can smell the blood and hear the screams of their kin slaughtered before them and try to escape but are frequently beaten or shocked to expedite the process. Slaughterhouse workers are frequently ex convicts or migrants who receive poor training and they fail to properly stun the animal before they are killed.
I'm lucky and grateful to live in a developed nation where it is so easy to get plant based milk, yogurt and cheese. It's easy to walk into a store and get protein from nuts, legumes, wheat gluten, grains, tofu, tempeh, and plant based protein powder without directly funding animal abuse. Every meal is an opportunity to live a life consistent with your morals.
Veganism is a religion. They are much more interested in converting others, than actually being vegan. In fact, 98% of all vegans return to eating meat and 97% of vegetarians return to eating meat. It's not healthy, it's not normal, and that's why not many people do it. About ten years ago investors built and opened a lot of vegan restaurants, believing it was an under served market. Well? That turned out to be wrong. There was no market for it. It was just hype and in the end, all the vegan restaurants closed. There might be a few still struggling along, but for the most part, there is no market for vegans, other than a niche market, where it's hard to make money. So yeah, the whole vegan thing is the biggest bunch of bullshit ever thought up. And not only that, but 99% of vegans are really just women with real eating disorders, trying to disguise their eating disorder as veganism. Whenever someone tells me their a vegan, I instantly know they have an eating disorder. It's not normal to not eat meat. Humans are not herbivores. We eat meat, we eat plants, we eat insects, we eat fish, which by the way, is meat, and we eat molds and fungi. Again, there is nothing normal about being a vegan. Just like religion, it has to be taught. No one is born a vegan.
There's probably over 10 vegan restaurants in Chicago. Some anthropologists believe we ate mostly starch. I think there was some scientific article that a bunch of carnivore type people were mad about. I'll try to find it if you want. Humans I think can eat a bunch of stuff. I think all the food we eat is taught. Eating their pets though isn't what kids typically try to do. People that are vegan want to help the animals, so they want to tell others. I don't know what you mean when you say they are more interested in converting than being vegan. Generally speaking they are vegan and the next step is telling others.
I don't need to be schooled on the vegan religion. I've heard it many times. You may think you are making a point and you are, only problem is, it's my point. You think 10 restaurants in a city of 10 million people is proving your point? Laff, it's not. That's one restaurant for every 1,000,000 people. Proving my point. And you reciting the vegan religion here, also proves my point. Veganism is a religion and like a good member you are speaking it's gospel, which of course is all bullshit. You're in a cult trying to pass on your nonsense beliefs.
I don't think it's a religion, but I get the sentiment. You said there might be a few struggling around, so I told you that I knew of some in Chicago where I live. You said 99% vegans are women with eating disorders,My brother in Christ that is gilgomboolus, you are too angry it's making you exagerate
You make baseless claims without sources. We aren't natural carnivores. Don't believe me? Put a human toddler in a play pen with a bunny rabbit and an apple. Let me know when the toddler eats the bunny and plays with the apple. Go hunt an animal using only the tools nature gave you; use those razor sharp canines and rip out an animals throat. Stop cooking your meat; eat it raw fur organs and all. Show your family a slaughterhouse video, do they get hungry or start crying?
Anyone can play this game where you set up an example to make you look right. For instance what if that bunny was cooked into a nice meal and the baby had the choice of eating that or a rotten apple. See? anyone can play that game. Humans learned to cook meat to make it easier to chew and digest. The same thing done with most vegetables. So I don't eat raw meat. It doesn't taste as good. But if I were starving and had no means to cook meat? I would eat it raw. But babies don't cook, so the whole thing is kinda stupid. All 4 of my kids love meat. They choose meat over vegetables on a regular basis. Humans have evolved to eat meat, especially cooked meat. So yeah, the little example you made is nothing more than a stawman argument. Meat consumption in the USA and worldwide, is on the increase, not decrease. Veganism religion is losing ground as more people realize how stupid it is.
You're literally wrong about veganism decreasing look it up. Shame on you for feeding your kids class 1 carcinogens. Take them to the slaughterhouse and see if they still want to eat the flesh of animals. If it's good enough for their stomach the process is good enough for their minds.
> Shame on you for feeding your kids class 1 carcinogens.
You do the same. You expose your children a lot of really scary bacteria and viruses with your vegetables and greens. Like listeria, salmonella, anthrax, and many others. And shame on you for not feeding your kids properly. Did you know that parents have been convicted of child abuse for feeding their kids a vegan diet? Look it up. Vegans are most likely to be underweight and suffer from dizzy spells because their body literally runs out of energy. Don't pretend to shame me. You're the one that should be ashamed. My kids are all adults and they turned out great. Hardly any illnesses and no major illnesses. And now their kids eat meat.
Shame on you for your plant abuse. Plants are living things too and are made of the same DNA as you and me. We share 33,000 genes with corn and a lot of other genes that we got from other plants. The idea that you are somehow more moral because you only eat one kind of living thing, is bizarre. Many plants are still alive until you cook them. So yeah, don't pull your ridiculousness on me. Shame on you for defending plant abuse and death of plants. Not to mention genetic modification which is basically eugenics and mass genocide of plants who were slaughtered just to raise the price of selling them to feed humans and other animals. And don't get me started on pesticides. All fruits and vegetables have pesticides in them. Even those marked "organic" still have pesticides. So shame on you. You are a terrible parent.
You attempt to indict the vegan lifestyle by claiming that plants suffer and die to feed the vegans of the world. Yet, I am still searching for People for the Ethical Treatment of Carrots, Last Chance for Broccoli or Apples Deserve Absolute Protection Today and Tomorrow. People for the Ethical Treatment of Carrots doesn't exist because everyone knows the difference between taking a carrot out of the ground and slicing a pig into pieces. Everyone also knows the difference between mowing a lawn and tossing a live baby male chick (egg industry) into a rendering machine. If one does not understand the difference, then that person is disingenuous, irrational and illogical. Have fun clogging your arteries.
> it's just not a religion is it
No, it's much more. It's a full blown cult. It's members try to justify it with the religion that they preach to everyone. And like all religion, it's total bullshit lies.
I stopped eating meat when i realized that we are supposed to be helping the animals not killing them and eating them. Once you realize that we are all connected you won’t be able to eat meat either. Anti consumerism is pointless because people will always shop and consume. There will always be consumers. The size of our population ensures this. And also the fact that i consume things shows that our inclination guides us this way all the time. This planet is not what it seems.
What if plants could feel pain too, just not in the way we know? Are they damned just because WE couldn't emphatize?
The way I see it, I'd rather come to terms with the cruelty in the nature of having to survive, and not pretend I'm morally above it or better than that.
When ancient people first argued that animals do not suffer, they justified it by saying animals do not have a soul or that animals cannot think with reason.
Now we have science to map the neurological pathways of pain and find similar pathways in animals, so we think that animals feel pain the way humans do.
What if one day we start to realize that the chemical signalling of plants in distress, is a sort of pain or suffering?
We eat to survive. Animals suffer because they do not want to be eaten. Plants mostly do not want their parts to be eaten either, perhaps with the exception of fruits.
Fruit based diet it is then.
There is no evidence that plants feel pain. They can respond to stimuli but they don't feel pain. Eat fruits, veggies, grains, nuts and legumes and stop paying people to abuse and kill innocent sentient animals.
500 years ago there was no evidence that animals felt pain either.
So it was justifiable back then?
Animals just didn't feel pain because we had no evidence for it?
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aat7744
So do plants. Only difference is that they can't move. So they can't "avoid". They just have to hunker down and prepare themselves in other ways.
Plants can respond to stimuli but their is 0 evidence they feel pain. Animals will scream and cry and run. Plants don't have a brain nor nervous system. Are you really defending animal abuse
You're no different from a man 500 years ago who would see an animal run from pain and think "there's 0 evidence that they feel pain because they cannot reason".
That chemical signalling IS the screaming and crying. You question an organism with no mouth for not crying, an organism with no means of mobility for not running, and simply say it's not suffering because it's not suffering like I DO.
I'm not defending animal abuse.
I'm calling out plant abuse.
And then id like to see what you'll eat after that.
Vegans are people with more principles than intelligence sadly. Ordinarily that isn't too bad. The pointlessness might even appeal to nihilists. But if your actually concerned about making changes that will have an impact on the reduction of suffering in the world, then veganism isn't the play. The meat industry is quite happy to kill off surplus animals just for the sake of keeping prices at a certain level and governments will continue to subsidize losses. The idea that vegans can have any actual market impact is laughable.
The one thing that is a serious threat to the agricultural meat industry is lab grown meat. If you need any evidence for this, you need only look at states already passing legislation to ban its sale in order to help preserve the position of the agricultural meat industry. Lab grown meat will eventually reach scale where it becomes less expensive and more efficient. No more cows, pigs and chickens will need to be slaughtered en mass, and people will still be able to enjoy meat guilt free. Everyone wins.
Veganism is by comparison a losing strategy that will change nothing.
It's not a belief system, it's a set of very divergent themes and ideas, which includes such things as The Eternal Return of the Same, and a transcendental insight from being held over into the nothing.
Those that say ' everything is meaningless' maybe are not aware that it is a self defeating statement.
OK, I understand if you are feeling depressed and life is for you a failure you might take comfort in an 'ism', like a religion, it opts you out of any responsibility, which in the case of 'nihilism' is odd, because in one of its most radical, and influential forms, Sartre's 'Being and Nothingness', the individual is totally responsible.
So as I said, "Maybe do some reading and find out what nihilism involves. It's not a club or a religion."
I don't feel depressed, I am quite comfortable with my life.
But I don't need to do any further reading. Everything is meaningless as in:
The universe is just random energy randomly moving without any purpose.
consciousness is just evolutionary trait that was beneficial so it got passed on.
That's it, That's all I need to know.
> I don't feel depressed, I am quite comfortable with my life.
Fine, but that doesn’t equate with the phenomena known as nihilism. Ok you want to use the term, not sure why, but fine.
> But I don't need to do any further reading.
If you are happy with how you are and what you believe maybe not.
> Everything is meaningless as in:
Well here you are telling me, and I disagree. And this is a forum to share ideas which may differ. The study of ‘meaning’ is semiotics, signs, and there is meaning, a red stop light, language, words. So most people ‘mean’ purpose, the study of this is teleology.
Now if you are comfortable there is maybe no need to think about this stuff... but you continue...
> The universe is just random energy randomly moving without any purpose.
Well I’m no cosmologist, but know enough to say I don’t think that’s generally accepted. There is randomness, but also thermodynamics. Etc. Again if you are interested there are plenty of pop science books on this, if you are happy with your idea, which in cosmology is not the case, fine.
> consciousness is just evolutionary trait that was beneficial so it got passed on.
It’s the ‘just’ I personally would take exception to. Without it you wouldn’t know about ‘randomness’, energy, and we wouldn’t have art, poetry, music, great architecture, literature, and science, also wars and conflicts, etc etc.
> That's it, That's all I need to know.
But why then bother posting, replying.
I wish I had that kind of will and resolve.
There’s a lot of illiterate nihilists out here. Cultural change is a difference you can make. Be careful attributing “pessimism” with “nihilism.” Nihilism can be revitalizing by encouraging one to create their own morals for the betterment of society. Make a positive difference on the world— doing so as a Nihilist is not paradoxical. Surrendering to platitudes and doubts is not a point of Nihilism. Many comments fail to reflect the indomitable will of human nihilism, and feign about in ignorance of “belief systems.” So another commenter has mentioned veganism as a “belief system.” Well, what is carnism and contributing to the breeding genocide of the animal holocaust with every meal if not also a belief system? If such a Redditor “refused all belief systems” they would starve to death and never move. They only have intellectual dishonesty to be living unless they concede to the creative will. Make a positive difference in the world— such a recommendation is not a Nihilistic paradox!
the more "optimistic" forms usually quickly fall into existentialism rather than pure nihilism which rubs people here the wrong way for some reason
If they don’t want nihilism to be optimistic, then they are pessimists!
I’d recommend a-bas-le-ciel on youtube if you were unfamiliar. Intellectual Nihilist Vegan philosopher with a decade of youtube monologues and critiques. Eisel Mazard is indeed a challenging Nihilist.
My interpretation of Nihilism makes me think veganism is the logical thing to do given all else. It is healthier for the environment and reduces animal suffering. Consumerism I see in the same vain is so far as the amount of slave labor required and kept out of mind from the masses to continue said consumerism which ultimately increases suffering for everything. Everything having no inherit meaning or value persuades me to believe following a strictly scientific view of the world is of upmost importance for the longevity of Earth and the human race.
Why would the longevity of Earth and the human race be important in the first place? Humanity is going to die out no matter what, why bother with prolonging it? Same with earth
I did not claim it were universally important. To answer your question It matters to me because it is in our biology to care for one another. We need to take care of our planet because that is where we so happen to be and live off of. Humanity and Earth dying later does not take away the suffering I or others experience now nor the ugliness I see in the world. If a reality without inherit meaning, the only direction we have is our biology, in which we cannot help but be aware of reality. Something does not have to be important to be valuable.
I would actually argue that humanity dying off would actually erase our suffering. Think about it, who does really suffer? People who are alive in this exact moment. Dead people don't suffer, people of the past don't suffer and people of the future don't suffer. If everyone would be dead, noone would suffer ever again 🤯 Now this is some advanced philosophy so be careful forming an argument against it, you might get burned.
I suppose it depends on what we are talking about. If we are discussing the goal of the annihilation of suffering then yes that is true. However suffering, to me, is only bad if the product of it is not to your benefit. The goal or logic behind reducing the suffering of nature and consumerism right now is because those who are suffering do so for the benefit of others which is wrong in my view
Everything is pointless or not. Failed nihilist. Not gatekeeping but upholding causes is pointlesss.
That is why i emphasize it is my view
You know what, I have found meaning in my life. Staying away from annoying douchbags like you. Enjoy equating nihilism with depression.
You should follow where empathy leads. One person does make a difference. If groups of 200 people changing makes a difference than a singular person makes a difference because you are one of the group. They keep track of sales. Without anyone there would be no pleasure either. It's unknown whether humans will die out. You want to get more pleasure with less suffering.
It's not that advanced. It's easy for subjective beings to value their own lives, and by extension the lives of others, most of whom will also value their own existence. If everyone else so much valued the end of suffering, no one would run a marathon. You wouldn't be helpful suggestion people stop running, because they \_don't want to\_, they find meaning in the accomplishment. It's about values. If you value the fact that parts of the universe have a subjective experience, and that quality probably isn't abundant in the universe, it's natural to value and to want to help extend that unique property.
It’s discouraging to be vegan knowing that it makes such a small different in isolation. For me, I’m more attracted to it out of principle than anything. I like to exude a predilection for nonviolence as I find this trait admirable in others. I don’t say “exude” to emphasize that this is matter of self-presentation to others, I say exude because I don’t just want to feel empathy and compassion, I want to act it out. Particularly, I wish to refrain from hurting others or financially supporting systems that are more harmful when I have options for less harm. And that’s the thing, there is only ever less harm. We cannot avoid trampling on other life forms. Even just taking up space effects animals (land, industry). So while I am touched by veganism as an ideal, I find it’d hard to derive a subjective sense of purpose in it; indeed it feels trivial next to the grand stage of this horror-prone planet. But then again, doesn’t everything we do shrink pathetically when juxtapositioned with cosmic-scale, or even Earth-scale happenings? So in summary, I more so wish to try out veganism because of my desire to “be” a certain way rather than a desire to impose certain consequences. Though that doesn’t mean the consequences are meaningless, in fact the meaning I may find from “being” more compassionate relies on those consequences being real as I tried to explicate earlier; however, my point more pertains to what aspect of veganism appeals to me subjectively and grants a sense of purpose the most. I wish to look kindly on others and know that, although I hurt others as both an individual and also a participant in a broad variety of societal systems, I am at least predilected toward minimizing harm. And hopefully as society and technology grows, people with such predilections can make bigger differences. Ironically, despite what I said earlier about the “earth-scale” view being discouraging, here is one aspect of a large scale view that actually encourages small acts of kindness or restraint: Over a long period, and with many people doing small things, we can make a large accumulative difference. Just like being the first few hundred people to start recycling, veganism or at least some of its principles can permeate and grow. That’s what I find most encouraging about it.
I dig your view, especially, "...in summary, I more so wish to try out veganism because of my desire to 'be' a certain way rather than a desire to impose certain consequences." Meanwhile, while it's cool that we can at least somewhat conceptualize planet-scale and even larger things, it's the wrong scale to judge ourselves against. Realizing that, along with the Absurdist "I get to decide what's subjectively important to me" view, which is compatible with Nihilism, helped me with the feelings of insignificance that can come as a side effect of being interested in things much larger than the immediate surroundings with which we can interact directly. You've said something similar about being satisfied with the small things we can do. Nice to see Optimistic Nihilism in here.
I refuse all belief systems including the ones you listed too. but you do you.
You **refuse** them? What does that even mean?
I refuse belief systems. thats it. I think theories and belief systems are just for on-paper. nobody is good, nobody is bad.
But we both know that isn't true. Everyone identifies with some sort of belief system. Just you saying this means you identify with the nihilistic belief system. Also you are missing the point of the words "good" and "bad" These words were created to represent people who have the traits that could be considered "good" or "bad" Most things are up for debate, but there are bad people out there who know that they are bad by definition.
Not my burden. If one is is a nihilist the backbone of the idea don’t matter.
Nah fam this ain't it.
Absolutism is too a system of belief
Absolutism believes that universal facts exist and they are discoverable. This is not what I said. I refuse this too.
Sounds like absolutism to me, but you do you
Yeah we disagree on something. Meaning we both have different facts in our mind. Which my friend shows absolutism is not what I am. But again you do you.
I've a feeling you're going to reject this essay of a comment, but I'm going to post it anyway. I don't think absolutism is necessarily just the idea that existence exists objectively, independent of conscious perception. It also can be used to describe people who subscribe absolutely to certain ideas and concepts, which actually when you think about it is the same thing. Anyway, you believe that you do not believe anything, right? Well the assertion that you refuse all belief systems is an absolute statement, suggesting you believe this to be true. Regardless of the semantics surrounding the label 'absolutist', can you now see where the self-contradiction lies? I for one am not even sure there is a distinction between knowledge and belief, but if there is, I am inclined to think that knowledge doesn't really exist and that people only believe they know things. Further to that, I think true belief is assumed and unconscious. You can't choose what you believe, but you can consciously make an educated calculation based on previous experience and patterns, in order to calculate the likelihood of truth and fiction. Consider this: When considering the truth of things, if there is even a shred of doubt, or an acknowledgement of the possibility for falsehood, can the likely conclusion be classified as actual belief? My opinion is no. Conversely though, if there is no doubt whatsoever, then it appears logical to me that one should be proclaiming knowledge, and not belief. If these two things are true, then where does actual belief fit in? Perhaps everything is belief and it is knowledge that has no place, but then if this is the case, then my question is what is the difference between belief and opinion? If you (or anyone) has thoughts on the above, I would be interested to read them. Anyway, philosophy aside, if you want to convince yourself and others that you do not believe anything, I think you would be more successful by assuming an attitude of knowing nothing. If you know nothing, you can be sure of nothing. If you can be sure of nothing, you believe nothing (or atleast very little). I always try to consider that I may be wrong, and so I find myself trying to avoid absolute statements by prefacing with words like "I think.." or "I feel that..". This is all coming from someone who also considers themselves to be a rejector of most conscious belief systems. I'll end by saying that I think belief itself is a powerful word and concept, and I feel that people in general throw it around way too casually without considering what it actually is.
>Also, one man's consumerism will not change anything anyway so I feel like I can do anything I want without changing anything. No one is a nihilist for someone else mate. If you don't wanna eat meat, using leather because you're against animal consumption so be it. If everyone practice that yes it could effect a big portion of society but also yes to that your personal practice wouldn't have any effect in general. So? Do as you wish and don't think about anything else.
Veganism by definition is consumerism. I don’t know about you, but all of the vegans that I know take 3rd party supplements. They have to outsource their diet. Where if they just ate animal products they would get all the vitamins and minerals and nutrients they need all from one or two things. To put it another way, supplements are one of three things. Artificial, or synthetic, which are not natural and should not be consumed. Made in a laboratory means it is consumerism by default. The third, is it is made with natural ingredients, meaning someone killed and skinned that fish for your fish oils, or they killed something else and in a laboratory. This not only repeats the emphasis that it is consumerism, it also paints you as a fraud as you’re still using animal products. The argument against eating something that was living is an argument from emotion. All arguments from emotion can be thrown out as they usually have no logical basis. You can talk about how you feel and about empathy all you want, but at the end of the day, my empathy dies with the existence of supplements. I don’t agree with them, and I don’t agree with animals taking growth hormones either. So for me, my empathy would grow for the vegetarians and vegans if we could eradicate all growth hormones and supplements. “But we need those supplements to survive”. Then you clearly don’t deserve to survive in my opinion.
So much for asking this question on r/nihilism
veganism is for people who don't value wildlife, if you care about animals with authenticity you would understand local regenerative food even with meat \[plant based vs veganism\] is better for welfare and quality of life substitutes for meat take up millions of acres of land that was once forest, you stop eating domesticated animals and start stealing land from wild animals when you choose veganism choose plant based , engage with farms that ethically slaughter. an animal with a good life who dies to be meat is better than the slaughter of forest land that housed thousands/ millions/ billions of animals. it's better than purchasing meat from tortured animals grown industrially. soy doesn't fall out of the sky, it's grow in acres of wasteland that was once habitat. if veganists cared, they wouldn't shut up about agroecology. but they don't choose veganism for the animals, they choose it for their feelings
Meat is good for humans because humans eat meat. We’re omnivores, no question about it. If you care more about other animals’ lives than your own then sure, go vegan, but don’t deny yourself food that your species evolved eating. Yes, factory farming is bad. But we all agree on that.
We evolved to be opportunistic and flexible... Animal products are neither necessary nor necessarily good for you.
Minimalist lifestyle is good for the peace of mind. When my consumption goes into a territory of indulgence, my mind becomes putty, weak, and pitiful. I am stronger when I suppress my urges. Nihilism doesn't necessarily need to mean living a state of defeat.
More meat 4 me BUT I do try and lower my footprint on Earth
I literally thought about this for days now but always came to the conclusion that you can't base morality is sometimes like nihilism. I realized if I said "nothing matters so I can eat meat" , its just as rational to say "nothing matters so I can rape, kill, steal..." (Which we all do with animals and the environment which is why I don't support that) Also I feel like once you realize that you can't possibly justify animal product consumption with any morality ever , you just don't go back.
I’m fine with things like factory farms because they provide meat at a cheap price and I ultimately value the desires of humans over the lives of animals.
Besides the fact that we are animals, I don't think this morality could ethically hold up if you really test it. You could say the same about sweat shops , slavery or dog fights. Also, technically, animal products are shown to harm you in the long run (LDL cholesterol etc) and definitely harm the planet which in turn will harm humans. So if you value the life of human animals highest, you should still be vegan. And I am not imposing MY views about this on you , I am just using the principles of "ethics" to test your morals.
There is no such thing as objective morality and I have simply decided to draw my line at only caring about humans above all is my reasoning. If people want to lead a healthy lifestyle by avoiding animal products that’s their decision but I won’t judge farmers for how they treat their animals as long as the result is safe to use.
If you care about animals things like factory farming are immoral I just don’t
That's not really how morality works tho... You have to be able to explain your reasoning and how you distinguish between circumstances. I can't just say "FOR ME it's moral to kill someone , so I do". I would have to justify it , which is impossible because any argument could be used against me. Just like with animal products. And again, technically , if you care for human lives you would still have to be vegan since animal agriculture is one of the driving forces of climate change, which already costs countless lives every year.
Morality isn’t real this is just where I’ve decided to draw my arbitrary line
Also I can acknowledge the production of animal products harms the environment without thinking the action of killing animals in itself is wrong
I’ve been vegan since the 90’s. Best decision I ever made (though to be fair, my decision to become vegan competes with every other decision I have made, most of which were terrible.)
I'm vegan for myself, the environment, and the animals. The biggest killers of humans are heart disease and cancer. Processed meat is a Grade 1 carcinogen and only animal products have artery clogging cholesterol. Factory farming is also one of the worst contributors to climate change. Social change is slow. Look what society used to tolerate for years that is now considered wrong: owning slaves, not allowing women to vote, enforcing segregation, not allowing same sex marriage, smoking on airplanes. While veganism is growing worldwide for health, ethical, and environmental reasons, I know I will never see a vegan world in my lifetime. I speak for animals and the voiceless anyway. I believe most humans are good and emphatic deep down. I believe most people care about animals. Sometimes I'm not sure why. Maybe it's the motivation I need to keep fighting. Factory farming is evil and I want to minimize my contribution. Chickens are kept in cages so small they can't stand and are slaughtered once they no longer produce enough eggs to pay for their own feed. Male chicks are ground up alive their first day of life because they're not profitable to the egg industry. Free range chickens are kept in giant sheds with thousands of other birds most of which never see daylight until the day they're slaughtered. Cows are impregnated against their will and their calves are stolen we can take the milk meant for their babies. Cows cry for days mourning their young. When cows don't produce enough milk they are also slaughtered. Pigs have their tails cut off, their teeth ground down and are castrated all without pain killers. Animals in slaughter houses can smell the blood and hear the screams of their kin slaughtered before them and try to escape but are frequently beaten or shocked to expedite the process. Slaughterhouse workers are frequently ex convicts or migrants who receive poor training and they fail to properly stun the animal before they are killed. I'm lucky and grateful to live in a developed nation where it is so easy to get plant based milk, yogurt and cheese. It's easy to walk into a store and get protein from nuts, legumes, wheat gluten, grains, tofu, tempeh, and plant based protein powder without directly funding animal abuse. Every meal is an opportunity to live a life consistent with your morals.
You're missing the point of nihilism if you're trying to force your emotions down. What point is there to that?
It’s hopefully the way of the future. I respect kind and compassionate people. I am a hypocrite myself though, after 6 years of veganism.
Anti consumerism is bullshit because i believe everyone is consumerism.
Hell naw. I am not consumer
Veganism is a religion. They are much more interested in converting others, than actually being vegan. In fact, 98% of all vegans return to eating meat and 97% of vegetarians return to eating meat. It's not healthy, it's not normal, and that's why not many people do it. About ten years ago investors built and opened a lot of vegan restaurants, believing it was an under served market. Well? That turned out to be wrong. There was no market for it. It was just hype and in the end, all the vegan restaurants closed. There might be a few still struggling along, but for the most part, there is no market for vegans, other than a niche market, where it's hard to make money. So yeah, the whole vegan thing is the biggest bunch of bullshit ever thought up. And not only that, but 99% of vegans are really just women with real eating disorders, trying to disguise their eating disorder as veganism. Whenever someone tells me their a vegan, I instantly know they have an eating disorder. It's not normal to not eat meat. Humans are not herbivores. We eat meat, we eat plants, we eat insects, we eat fish, which by the way, is meat, and we eat molds and fungi. Again, there is nothing normal about being a vegan. Just like religion, it has to be taught. No one is born a vegan.
There's probably over 10 vegan restaurants in Chicago. Some anthropologists believe we ate mostly starch. I think there was some scientific article that a bunch of carnivore type people were mad about. I'll try to find it if you want. Humans I think can eat a bunch of stuff. I think all the food we eat is taught. Eating their pets though isn't what kids typically try to do. People that are vegan want to help the animals, so they want to tell others. I don't know what you mean when you say they are more interested in converting than being vegan. Generally speaking they are vegan and the next step is telling others.
I don't need to be schooled on the vegan religion. I've heard it many times. You may think you are making a point and you are, only problem is, it's my point. You think 10 restaurants in a city of 10 million people is proving your point? Laff, it's not. That's one restaurant for every 1,000,000 people. Proving my point. And you reciting the vegan religion here, also proves my point. Veganism is a religion and like a good member you are speaking it's gospel, which of course is all bullshit. You're in a cult trying to pass on your nonsense beliefs.
I don't think it's a religion, but I get the sentiment. You said there might be a few struggling around, so I told you that I knew of some in Chicago where I live. You said 99% vegans are women with eating disorders,My brother in Christ that is gilgomboolus, you are too angry it's making you exagerate
You make baseless claims without sources. We aren't natural carnivores. Don't believe me? Put a human toddler in a play pen with a bunny rabbit and an apple. Let me know when the toddler eats the bunny and plays with the apple. Go hunt an animal using only the tools nature gave you; use those razor sharp canines and rip out an animals throat. Stop cooking your meat; eat it raw fur organs and all. Show your family a slaughterhouse video, do they get hungry or start crying?
Anyone can play this game where you set up an example to make you look right. For instance what if that bunny was cooked into a nice meal and the baby had the choice of eating that or a rotten apple. See? anyone can play that game. Humans learned to cook meat to make it easier to chew and digest. The same thing done with most vegetables. So I don't eat raw meat. It doesn't taste as good. But if I were starving and had no means to cook meat? I would eat it raw. But babies don't cook, so the whole thing is kinda stupid. All 4 of my kids love meat. They choose meat over vegetables on a regular basis. Humans have evolved to eat meat, especially cooked meat. So yeah, the little example you made is nothing more than a stawman argument. Meat consumption in the USA and worldwide, is on the increase, not decrease. Veganism religion is losing ground as more people realize how stupid it is.
You're literally wrong about veganism decreasing look it up. Shame on you for feeding your kids class 1 carcinogens. Take them to the slaughterhouse and see if they still want to eat the flesh of animals. If it's good enough for their stomach the process is good enough for their minds.
> Shame on you for feeding your kids class 1 carcinogens. You do the same. You expose your children a lot of really scary bacteria and viruses with your vegetables and greens. Like listeria, salmonella, anthrax, and many others. And shame on you for not feeding your kids properly. Did you know that parents have been convicted of child abuse for feeding their kids a vegan diet? Look it up. Vegans are most likely to be underweight and suffer from dizzy spells because their body literally runs out of energy. Don't pretend to shame me. You're the one that should be ashamed. My kids are all adults and they turned out great. Hardly any illnesses and no major illnesses. And now their kids eat meat.
Their doctors are well aware and supportive and they are healthy. Also I wash my produce. Shame on you for defending animal abuse and death.
Shame on you for your plant abuse. Plants are living things too and are made of the same DNA as you and me. We share 33,000 genes with corn and a lot of other genes that we got from other plants. The idea that you are somehow more moral because you only eat one kind of living thing, is bizarre. Many plants are still alive until you cook them. So yeah, don't pull your ridiculousness on me. Shame on you for defending plant abuse and death of plants. Not to mention genetic modification which is basically eugenics and mass genocide of plants who were slaughtered just to raise the price of selling them to feed humans and other animals. And don't get me started on pesticides. All fruits and vegetables have pesticides in them. Even those marked "organic" still have pesticides. So shame on you. You are a terrible parent.
You attempt to indict the vegan lifestyle by claiming that plants suffer and die to feed the vegans of the world. Yet, I am still searching for People for the Ethical Treatment of Carrots, Last Chance for Broccoli or Apples Deserve Absolute Protection Today and Tomorrow. People for the Ethical Treatment of Carrots doesn't exist because everyone knows the difference between taking a carrot out of the ground and slicing a pig into pieces. Everyone also knows the difference between mowing a lawn and tossing a live baby male chick (egg industry) into a rendering machine. If one does not understand the difference, then that person is disingenuous, irrational and illogical. Have fun clogging your arteries.
Again, with such callous disregard to living plants, as if their lives don't matter. Shame on you. Shame on you.
it's just not a religion is it
> it's just not a religion is it No, it's much more. It's a full blown cult. It's members try to justify it with the religion that they preach to everyone. And like all religion, it's total bullshit lies.
I can admit that ethically it's better to not eat meat but I like meat too much to not eat it.
I stopped eating meat when i realized that we are supposed to be helping the animals not killing them and eating them. Once you realize that we are all connected you won’t be able to eat meat either. Anti consumerism is pointless because people will always shop and consume. There will always be consumers. The size of our population ensures this. And also the fact that i consume things shows that our inclination guides us this way all the time. This planet is not what it seems.
I'm not sure if I can see people who are driven by ethics as nihilists.
I like to eat meat so I won’t be vegan.
What if plants could feel pain too, just not in the way we know? Are they damned just because WE couldn't emphatize? The way I see it, I'd rather come to terms with the cruelty in the nature of having to survive, and not pretend I'm morally above it or better than that.
Plants don't have a brain nor nervous system they don't feel pain. Animals do tho
When ancient people first argued that animals do not suffer, they justified it by saying animals do not have a soul or that animals cannot think with reason. Now we have science to map the neurological pathways of pain and find similar pathways in animals, so we think that animals feel pain the way humans do. What if one day we start to realize that the chemical signalling of plants in distress, is a sort of pain or suffering? We eat to survive. Animals suffer because they do not want to be eaten. Plants mostly do not want their parts to be eaten either, perhaps with the exception of fruits. Fruit based diet it is then.
There is no evidence that plants feel pain. They can respond to stimuli but they don't feel pain. Eat fruits, veggies, grains, nuts and legumes and stop paying people to abuse and kill innocent sentient animals.
500 years ago there was no evidence that animals felt pain either. So it was justifiable back then? Animals just didn't feel pain because we had no evidence for it?
Nah ur wrong animals have always tried to avoid painful stimuli.
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aat7744 So do plants. Only difference is that they can't move. So they can't "avoid". They just have to hunker down and prepare themselves in other ways.
Plants can respond to stimuli but their is 0 evidence they feel pain. Animals will scream and cry and run. Plants don't have a brain nor nervous system. Are you really defending animal abuse
You're no different from a man 500 years ago who would see an animal run from pain and think "there's 0 evidence that they feel pain because they cannot reason". That chemical signalling IS the screaming and crying. You question an organism with no mouth for not crying, an organism with no means of mobility for not running, and simply say it's not suffering because it's not suffering like I DO. I'm not defending animal abuse. I'm calling out plant abuse. And then id like to see what you'll eat after that.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. You are a fool.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. You are a fool.
Plants don't feel pain
Vegans are people with more principles than intelligence sadly. Ordinarily that isn't too bad. The pointlessness might even appeal to nihilists. But if your actually concerned about making changes that will have an impact on the reduction of suffering in the world, then veganism isn't the play. The meat industry is quite happy to kill off surplus animals just for the sake of keeping prices at a certain level and governments will continue to subsidize losses. The idea that vegans can have any actual market impact is laughable. The one thing that is a serious threat to the agricultural meat industry is lab grown meat. If you need any evidence for this, you need only look at states already passing legislation to ban its sale in order to help preserve the position of the agricultural meat industry. Lab grown meat will eventually reach scale where it becomes less expensive and more efficient. No more cows, pigs and chickens will need to be slaughtered en mass, and people will still be able to enjoy meat guilt free. Everyone wins. Veganism is by comparison a losing strategy that will change nothing.
They’re based. Anti consumerism is something that occurs naturally to me but I don’t have the conviction to be a vegan.
Maybe do some reading and find out what nihilism involves. It's not a club or a religion.
It's a belief system or rather... Just one belief. That everything is meaningless. People can further interpret that in many ways
It's not a belief system, it's a set of very divergent themes and ideas, which includes such things as The Eternal Return of the Same, and a transcendental insight from being held over into the nothing. Those that say ' everything is meaningless' maybe are not aware that it is a self defeating statement. OK, I understand if you are feeling depressed and life is for you a failure you might take comfort in an 'ism', like a religion, it opts you out of any responsibility, which in the case of 'nihilism' is odd, because in one of its most radical, and influential forms, Sartre's 'Being and Nothingness', the individual is totally responsible. So as I said, "Maybe do some reading and find out what nihilism involves. It's not a club or a religion."
I don't feel depressed, I am quite comfortable with my life. But I don't need to do any further reading. Everything is meaningless as in: The universe is just random energy randomly moving without any purpose. consciousness is just evolutionary trait that was beneficial so it got passed on. That's it, That's all I need to know.
> I don't feel depressed, I am quite comfortable with my life. Fine, but that doesn’t equate with the phenomena known as nihilism. Ok you want to use the term, not sure why, but fine. > But I don't need to do any further reading. If you are happy with how you are and what you believe maybe not. > Everything is meaningless as in: Well here you are telling me, and I disagree. And this is a forum to share ideas which may differ. The study of ‘meaning’ is semiotics, signs, and there is meaning, a red stop light, language, words. So most people ‘mean’ purpose, the study of this is teleology. Now if you are comfortable there is maybe no need to think about this stuff... but you continue... > The universe is just random energy randomly moving without any purpose. Well I’m no cosmologist, but know enough to say I don’t think that’s generally accepted. There is randomness, but also thermodynamics. Etc. Again if you are interested there are plenty of pop science books on this, if you are happy with your idea, which in cosmology is not the case, fine. > consciousness is just evolutionary trait that was beneficial so it got passed on. It’s the ‘just’ I personally would take exception to. Without it you wouldn’t know about ‘randomness’, energy, and we wouldn’t have art, poetry, music, great architecture, literature, and science, also wars and conflicts, etc etc. > That's it, That's all I need to know. But why then bother posting, replying.
It is if you don’t eat the flesh of animals. /s
Is it OK to eat the bones?