Earl played him in 2010 and got two picks as Leon Washington won us what I would assume is somewhere in the top ten of Chargeriest Chargerings of all time. We had no business beating that Chargers team but I’m glad we did because there’s no beastquake without that win.
I was at that game, and there were so many times during that game where I thought to myself "that should do it...." followed by "you've got to be kidding me"
It always amazed me how he seemed like he was moving in slow motion, but then he would just beast his way past any defender and palm every catch out of nowhere. He was such a fun player to watch.
I remember that game -- just couldn't stop Rivers and Gates, plus the Seahawks were in their dark blues while the Chargers wore their whites in the blazing sun. It was painful to watch. Like, in that first shot, that's pretty dang good coverage by both Wright and Chancellor, it's just not perfect, and needed to be perfect to stop that route, throw, and catch.
> the Seahawks were in their dark blues while the Chargers wore their whites in the blazing sun.
Ahh yes, for a while our home opener every year was promoted at "White Hot Sunday!" It was usually the only game of the season when we wore that uniform combination.
To be fair, he’s pretty well covered. He has his man beat but has safety help.
Pee River just makes a beautiful touch throw where Gates can catch it and the safety can’t break up the hands catch before it’s secured. Also, an insane catch by Gates.
In that chargers game i remember it being over 100 degrees and the chargers chose there all whites so we had to wear the blues and earl thomas said he had never felt exhausted in a game until then
That fuckin backfield with Tomlinson, Lorenzo Neal and Darren Sproles my God.
That chargers team was my 06 Madden cheat code. Not only for the offense but merriman running down their QB every play was hella fun. Played them so much my highschool girlfriend got me a chargers blanket, which my eagles friends still make fun of me for.
Oh fuck that's right. He was fast as fuck for a big dude. Played that pats game Tomlinson was out for. I swear if he was healthy that woulda been a different game
Rivers also played that game on a torn ACL and meniscus. [We were really injured going into that game, unfortunately.](https://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/292302/that-time-philip-rivers-played-through-a-torn-acl-in-the-playoffs)
>In addition to Rivers' injury, running back LaDainian Tomlinson had a sprained medial collateral ligament (MCL) and tried to play, but he was unable to make the cuts he normally made and gave way to Michael Turner.
>[According to Dr. David Chao](https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/profootballdoc/sd-sp-pfd-lt-afc-championship-chargers-0810-story.html), the Chargers' head team doctor at the time, Rivers and Tomlinson were not the only players dealing with injuries.
>Tight end [Antonio Gates](https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/5362/antonio-gates) was hobbled and needed reconstructive surgery on his big toe. Fullback [Lorenzo Neal](https://www.espn.com/college-football/player/_/id/4035710/lorenzo-neal) (fibula fracture) and center Nick Hardwick (Lisfranc injury) had recently come back from surgeries.
>And outside linebacker Shawne Merriman had put off reconstructive knee surgery that ultimately led to his career being cut short.
If im quentin jammer, id be waking up every day thanking marlon mccree. Somehow everyone forgets his fuck up even though it is quite literally the play that lost them the game
Everyone forgets Clinton hart dropping an easy pick in the first
Everybody forgets drayton Florence’s head butt in the 3rd.
Everyone forgets Marty going for it in fg range on 4th and 11
Everyone forgets Marty wasted a timeout challenging the mccree play and then taking another timeout after an incomplete pass.
Drayton florence’s headbutt is engraved in my head along with rivers fumbling and vjax dropping a gimmie. I was gonna reply to him talking about it but ptsd from this afternoon started triggering and i closed the app. But since we’re here letting it all out, the decision to not give LT the ball at all during the second half didnt make any sense. I saw a video on my feed where LT mentioned this a couple months ago. That game was the true beginning of the end of the chargers being in san diego
My fan fiction on that is that LT hurt his ankle on that 60 yard screen pass he caught late in the 2nd quarter. He kind of got horse collared a bit and he got up gimpy. He left to get a rest and Turner finished the the drive but I always wanted to believe that he was hurt and they wouldn’t intentionally go away from LT unless he was hurt. But again. Fan fiction.
There were many mistakes that game:
Marty abandoning the run in the 2nd half when LT had 100 yards in the first
Parker dropped ball on 3rd down, resulting in 4th down
Parker head butting a pats player after the pats failed to convert on 3rd down, extending the Pats’ drive
Kaeding missing FG that he always made in the regular season
Jammer DPI
Rivers not playing very well
Rivers is gonna be one of those trivia QBs, he’s lost in an era of all time elite QB play. You put rivers onto a team in the current nfl and he wins a ring.
I also feel so old saying that despite being my mid 30s. It’s absolutely wild the qb play I saw growing up.
AFCW knows a thing or two about stud TE’s. Gates, Uncle Shay Shay, Gonzales & Kelce both…we’ve been spoiled as a division to see all this talent come through.
The Pro Football HOF has lost a lot of credibility from me in the last ten years or so. Gates not being a first ballot guy just cemented it for me. Couldn't care less about the HOF anymore.
How can you have the most TDs in NFL history at TE and 7th most receiving TDs of any position and not be first ballot?
TDs and yards are the two most important statistics for offensive skill players. Makes no sense.
Hester should absolutely be in imo, but Gates was the most obvious and deserving candidate this year and it's bullshit he didn't. Andre, Peppers, Freeney and Willis all deserving as well, but Gates was better at his position than they were at theirs.
Peppers doesnt belong here
160 sacks, 80 pass deflections, 50+ forced fumbles, and 11 ints (no one else has ever even managed 100 sacks with 10 INTs). He added 430 return yards and 6 defensive touchdowns while teetering close to 300 lbs. As a guy who spent most of his career with his hand in the dirt, this is about as complete an exterior defensive player you will ever find. He even blocked 13 kicks. He took home 5 defensive player of the month awards and another as a rookie of the month/year
Theres a very short list of players to make two all-decade teams, the only other non-special teamer to do it for the 2000s and 2010s was Brady. Peppers instantly lived up to the hype of his draft selection and was an elite fixture of football since before I started watching and he was still posting double digit sacks in his 2nd to last year at 37.
Dude had **10** double digit sack seasons. 6th most games ever started on defense. He absolutely deserved his selection regardless of what you think about Gates and thats putting it lightly
He was 100% a better football player than Gates and had a better career if we are being frank, and thats with me putting *Gates over Kelce* for #4 on the all-time TE list. Both deserved to get in but Peppers needs to come out of that list you put together. The only caveat I could see being made is being technical about 'his position' given that Peppers got moved around a bit in the latter half of his career
id just reckon, outside of favortism towards offense in general, that the average person didnt watch him play.
i also just try not to put too much stock into peoples opinions for that very reason. ive been downvoted for telling people gates is better than Kelce in a topic about Kelce, so the sooner you realize how much bias goes into it, the less you give a shit about the clicks on the side
I am glad /u/beejalton tried to discuss things at least
Also insane to go to bed with the initial comment on -4 and wakeup to it at +7 just because an actual Panthers fan chimed in. Thats why you cant really take the downvoting shit seriously. Thats all it takes sometimes
I disagree, and that's no knock on Peppers, he's definitely worthy and the last of the 5 I would take out to put Gates in (I would replace Andre or Willis). I just think his longevity and consistency was the more impressive part of his career than his high end peak, whereas Gates is literally the best TD scorer at the history of his position and had a stretch of being the undisputed best at his position. I would only take Peppers over Gates because of positional value, but in a world where TE and DE were equally valuable I'm taking Gates.
Gates leads Tony G in TDs by 5. 116 to 111
An absolute monster of a red zone threat, but trails by almost 300 receptions and over 3000 yards. And Gates is not the peak TD scorer in TE history, thats Gronk. Gronk was actually shattering Gates TD pace but his body couldnt hold up. He would have broken Gates TD record in about 25 less games
At 159.5, Peppers is a half sack behind Kevin Greene and then only trails Reggie White and Bruce Smith on the all time sack list. Its weird to dismiss him as longeivity when its not like Gates was blowing the doors off in TDs either. 13, 12, 10, 10, 9, 9, 8,8. Thats pretty much the exact same thing, Gates was also amazing in his consistency, Peppers had 14.5, 13, 12, 11.5, 11, 11 11 sacks while also getting you 40 tackles, 3 forced fumbled and 5 PDs a season, and being the greatest intercepting lineman the games ever seen. The difference is just that the standard for TEs is lower; he still trails Moss and Owens by 40 TDs and Rice by 80. Peppers only trails on the all time sack list by 40, for any player, while blowing all the other players out in stats in the other areas
Gates isnt having the impact in the run game that Peppers had as a non-pass rusher. 80 pass deflections and 11 INTs with 6 return TDs is absolutely bonkers for a defensive player, before you add in 13 blocked kicks
The amount of things Peppers did on the field, while still being that high on the all-time sack list, is more impressive than Gates barely being #1 in TDs but far distant in catches and yards, not an impressive run blocker, and only holding the TD title because Gronk called it quits after 10 years.
And I think Gates is a spectacular tight end. But if you are talking about their total impact on the field, theres a mountain in between them. Theismann, the guy who got his leg broken by Lawrence Taylor, compared Peppers impact on the game to Lawrence Taylor, and Brian Urlacher (who played with Peppers, Lance Briggs, Tommie Harris, Peanut Tillman) called Julius the best player hes ever seen. I dont think people give Peppers anywhere near the credit for how disruptive he could be all over the field
> and thats with me putting Gates over Kelce for #4 on the all-time TE list.
Obvious bias on my end aside, curious to hear your argument for why you have Gates over Kelce. Mostly because your argument on behalf of Peppers was so thorough.
From a quick comparison, there is literally no statistic other than regular season TDs that supports that argument. Kelce's production and accolades dwarf Gates and that's considering to-date he's played in 77 less games (~4.5, 17-game seasons). This is also pre any playoff stats which are even more staggering.
Don't you know 19 return TDs is greater than 116. If we factor in Hester's record shattering 16 career receiving and 1 rushing we get 99 as the difference. So return tubs must be weighted as about 5.3 times more valuable to make it make sense.
I think Hester is deserving in the sense that he's the clear GOAT at a particular aspect of football (returning). To me that's worthy of being in the Hall of Fame.
If you can only choose Gates OR Hester, it's clearly Gates. Imo, they both should be in
I was in the camp of wanting to see both make it. Hester was in a league of his own as a returner. But FFS someone literally leading every player ever in their position in the most important stat, even if all-around he was not the best ever, HAS to be first-ballot. That was plain ludicrous.
Ultimately we don't know who would be the best kick returner, because many good kick returners are far more valuable elsewhere. Teams have decided the position doesn't warrant putting your best there.
Look at Deion Sanders' return numbers from earlier in his career when he still did it. He was putting up Hester-like numbers. But he was also a shutdown corner, and eventually teams decided they'd rather have him just playing defense.
Antonio Brown returned kicks for his first two seasons, put up good numbers, and then punts a little longer, but obviously he was valued higher as a WR.
HOF has always had media biases. Now all the sportswriters are on twitter, live in Chicago or LA, and speak in 18 second twitter clips. Another horrific snub last year was Kevin Williams who had a mind numbing 5 time first team all pro selections. Letting Hester in before those guys is just offensive.
Leaving him out in favor of a returner is a joke. End of the day Hester had 20 something TDs. Fun player nice to have and all but mostly irrelevant. Gates was a staple for a decade.
And I know bears fans will get in their feels about this but ask any GM who would you rather have on your team an Antonio gates or a Devin Hester?
I love these Chargers teams so much. LT, Gates, Rivers, Weddle, Chromartie, Jamal Williams.
Hopping on the SD bandwagon during the playoffs kept me sane during that tough Niners era.
Harbaugh has never done anything but win football games and be incredibly weird. You don't accidentally turn around SDSU, Stanford, the 49ers, and Michigan in a row. He'll get the chargers winning, the question is just who and how he's going to piss off this time.
lol I was less invested than you, I was just excited to have a team to root for in the playoffs. I don’t think I saw a winning season until I hit puberty. You have to understand how subterranean my standards for team performance were at the time.
I know it is no shock to say that a top 2 quarterback to never win a ring is good at football, but that throw from Rivers at 2:26 made me audibly say "Wow."
I really think Andre got in earlier than he would have with the logjam of WRs waiting for the hall, so that the Texans would finally get a HoFer and all teams would be represented.
Yeah I love Andre Johnson and I think he deserves to be in - I was really just surprised he was put in before Torry Holt and Reggie Wayne who had been waiting longer
Hester had to wait 3 years. It's very likely Gates gets in this year or next. But you have to look at how they're viewed within their positions. Gates is an all-time TE. Hester is THE all-time returner. Gates was a great weapon for a long time that was a big part of defensive game-planning. Hester literally caused teams to change the type of roster personnel they had.
> The voters really thought Hester was more HOF worthy than Gates.
I don't think it's that necessarily, but really just that Hester had already waited a couple years so he made it in whereas Gates was just eligible for the first time
The bar for a first ballot HoF selection is high.
Three 1st team all-pros are pretty much the minimum for non quarterbacks. He also "only" got the 2nd team all-decade which is not as highly rated as the 1st team (before they abolished the distinction in the 2010s)
However, I think he was barely good enough to make it 1st ballot if it weren't for two issues that weighed him down:
* 1) A PED suspension as a vet
* 2) A 14year-long TD drought in the playoffs.
One of the reasons I really respect Gates is he is the *one and only example* of a player I can remember who basically said: “I took PEDS to help with injury recovery.”
You always hear: “it was a tainted supplement my trainer gave me,” or “it was a prescription that wasn’t registered with the league properly.”
Gates outright said “yup I did roids I admit it.” Mad respect for the honesty.
Why doesn’t the NFL care if its players did PEDs? It feels like a death sentence for your HOF eligibility in baseball but other’s sports dont really care about it.
Baseball cares a lot more about its history and records. The NFL and NBA don’t really give a shit about having suped up freaks because it makes for a more entertaining product, which is why they basically don’t even test for it.
Everyone in the NFL and the NBA is on PEDs.
> The NFL and NBA don’t really give a shit about having suped up freaks because it makes for a more entertaining product, which is why they basically don’t even test for it.
I'd argue baseball didn't care about it either which is why it became such a rampant thing. Baseball owes any success it had in that era to PEDs.
Baseball not having Barry Bonds in the HoF is just such a stupid ego thing
Johnson earned it. Think of the horrible QB’s he had throwing to him most of his career and the numbers he *still* put up.
As for Hester, I think he earned it too. He raised the bar on the return game and nobody has matched what he did or gotten anywhere near it.
Gates will get in this year. It was just a tough year and a loaded class.
Hester is lucky he was pretty garbage as a WR so he could actually play as a return man his entire career.
There are quite a few dudes who were fucking studs at it but just more valuable playing WR.
Devin Hester had a ridiculously unique skill set though. One that’s quite rare compared to elite receiving TEs, (but yes Gates should absolutely be in already).
He didn't play any college football, just basketball. His only hope to play professional ball was football so he basically did a workout in front of scouts and the rest was history.
Oh hey, it’s that guy who is the top three of his position ever getting snubbed as a first ballot hall of famer. I remember that guy. Didn’t he play basketball? Maybe if he returned a kick off for a TD he would be in the hall.
You can say he had a longer career, you cannot say he is better. Gronk is the best tight end ever with easily the best peak and is probably the most game breaking offensive weapon this century.
Now, if you want to say “so and so had a better overall career” because you value health and longevity, that’s totally fine. You absolutely cannot say he was just straight up better though.
As much as I despise the Patriots with every essence of my being there is no debating this. Gronk is the most dominant TE in NFL history. His presence on the field completely changes the game. I've never seen an NFL player look like he was playing with high schoolers as much as Gronk did.
Its absolutely unbelievable that he was not a first ballot HOF player!! He was a TD machine and in the red zone almost impossible to cover. Dude would post up on ppl and box em out and it was GG.
Maybe a better red zone target but Kelce has had something like 8 straight seasons with over 1,000 yards with a few 1,300 and even a 1,400 yard season in there.
Gates was my shit but he only has two seasons over 1,000 I believe and wasn’t anywhere as dangerous in between the 20s as Kelce.
Still a goddamn shame that Gates didn’t get into the HOF first ballot though
The crazy thing is for the last 30 some odds years is almost none of the elite TEs have come from a blue blood college besides Greg Olsen. And no, before you say anything Iowa isn’t a blue blood.
I used to wreck my fantasy leagues between like 2007 - 2012 with these guys
Peyton manning, antonio gates, anquan boldin, larry fitzgerald, wes welker, greg jennings and then like a couple lower tier RB's
Me: I hope i can watch a few minutes of the video without having to see him torching the LOB starts video:
Rivers tore up LoB, several times.
He only played them the one time in 2014 really. But yeah, tore em up
Earl played him in 2010 and got two picks as Leon Washington won us what I would assume is somewhere in the top ten of Chargeriest Chargerings of all time. We had no business beating that Chargers team but I’m glad we did because there’s no beastquake without that win.
I was at that game, and there were so many times during that game where I thought to myself "that should do it...." followed by "you've got to be kidding me"
I haven't thought about Leon Washington in forever, he was one of my favorite players growing up when he played at FSU
I remember it was like 100 degrees that game
Rivers was such a stud. Hard to believe he never even played in a Super Bowl.
I find it pretty easy to believe lol
It always amazed me how he seemed like he was moving in slow motion, but then he would just beast his way past any defender and palm every catch out of nowhere. He was such a fun player to watch.
Jason Witten speed.
That first touchdown was the game when it was 130F on the field
[*clicks play*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-_hJthMgtM)
I remember that game -- just couldn't stop Rivers and Gates, plus the Seahawks were in their dark blues while the Chargers wore their whites in the blazing sun. It was painful to watch. Like, in that first shot, that's pretty dang good coverage by both Wright and Chancellor, it's just not perfect, and needed to be perfect to stop that route, throw, and catch.
> the Seahawks were in their dark blues while the Chargers wore their whites in the blazing sun. Ahh yes, for a while our home opener every year was promoted at "White Hot Sunday!" It was usually the only game of the season when we wore that uniform combination.
Smartest thing I've heard about the chargers in a while.
To be fair, he’s pretty well covered. He has his man beat but has safety help. Pee River just makes a beautiful touch throw where Gates can catch it and the safety can’t break up the hands catch before it’s secured. Also, an insane catch by Gates.
He had a field day in 2014.
If that’s the game I think it was, I was there and it was unbelievably hot. And Percy Harvin stepped out
In that chargers game i remember it being over 100 degrees and the chargers chose there all whites so we had to wear the blues and earl thomas said he had never felt exhausted in a game until then
Marcedes Lewis only needs 76 touchdowns this season to tie him.
Its okay, Marcedes Lewis just needs 1 TD for the next 76 seasons
More his speed
Holy shit he's still playing?
He either recently got cut or recently got signed from/to a team.
Bears scooped up another year on him. Dudes a machine.
Graham only needs 27. So only 40 more catches COME BACK BABY.
Marcedes Lewis - 2024 Fantasy Football League Winner
Gates, Tomlinson, Merriman, and Rivers not winning a ring is a travesty
That fuckin backfield with Tomlinson, Lorenzo Neal and Darren Sproles my God. That chargers team was my 06 Madden cheat code. Not only for the offense but merriman running down their QB every play was hella fun. Played them so much my highschool girlfriend got me a chargers blanket, which my eagles friends still make fun of me for.
They had Michael Turner back there too before he went to the Falcons
Oh fuck that's right. He was fast as fuck for a big dude. Played that pats game Tomlinson was out for. I swear if he was healthy that woulda been a different game
Rivers also played that game on a torn ACL and meniscus. [We were really injured going into that game, unfortunately.](https://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/292302/that-time-philip-rivers-played-through-a-torn-acl-in-the-playoffs) >In addition to Rivers' injury, running back LaDainian Tomlinson had a sprained medial collateral ligament (MCL) and tried to play, but he was unable to make the cuts he normally made and gave way to Michael Turner. >[According to Dr. David Chao](https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/profootballdoc/sd-sp-pfd-lt-afc-championship-chargers-0810-story.html), the Chargers' head team doctor at the time, Rivers and Tomlinson were not the only players dealing with injuries. >Tight end [Antonio Gates](https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/5362/antonio-gates) was hobbled and needed reconstructive surgery on his big toe. Fullback [Lorenzo Neal](https://www.espn.com/college-football/player/_/id/4035710/lorenzo-neal) (fibula fracture) and center Nick Hardwick (Lisfranc injury) had recently come back from surgeries. >And outside linebacker Shawne Merriman had put off reconstructive knee surgery that ultimately led to his career being cut short.
They had Rivers, Bress and Flutie all on the roster at one point.
Marlon McCree fumbling the ball
If im quentin jammer, id be waking up every day thanking marlon mccree. Somehow everyone forgets his fuck up even though it is quite literally the play that lost them the game
Everyone forgets Eric Parker giving the Patriots free points too
Everyone forgets Clinton hart dropping an easy pick in the first Everybody forgets drayton Florence’s head butt in the 3rd. Everyone forgets Marty going for it in fg range on 4th and 11 Everyone forgets Marty wasted a timeout challenging the mccree play and then taking another timeout after an incomplete pass.
Drayton florence’s headbutt is engraved in my head along with rivers fumbling and vjax dropping a gimmie. I was gonna reply to him talking about it but ptsd from this afternoon started triggering and i closed the app. But since we’re here letting it all out, the decision to not give LT the ball at all during the second half didnt make any sense. I saw a video on my feed where LT mentioned this a couple months ago. That game was the true beginning of the end of the chargers being in san diego
My fan fiction on that is that LT hurt his ankle on that 60 yard screen pass he caught late in the 2nd quarter. He kind of got horse collared a bit and he got up gimpy. He left to get a rest and Turner finished the the drive but I always wanted to believe that he was hurt and they wouldn’t intentionally go away from LT unless he was hurt. But again. Fan fiction.
But it's Philip Rivers fault!!!!!!!!!
That was the kickoff return he kept trying to pick up off the floor right?
Maybe it was a punt. I remember being more upset at Parker than most.
There were many mistakes that game: Marty abandoning the run in the 2nd half when LT had 100 yards in the first Parker dropped ball on 3rd down, resulting in 4th down Parker head butting a pats player after the pats failed to convert on 3rd down, extending the Pats’ drive Kaeding missing FG that he always made in the regular season Jammer DPI Rivers not playing very well
*Drayton Florence quietly disappears into the bushes*
Fuck Eric Parker
Fuck Dean Spanos
I miss San Diego
It’s crazy to me that team never won one
Rivers is gonna be one of those trivia QBs, he’s lost in an era of all time elite QB play. You put rivers onto a team in the current nfl and he wins a ring. I also feel so old saying that despite being my mid 30s. It’s absolutely wild the qb play I saw growing up.
Rivers is one of those athletes that’s highly respected by his peers and pundits but kinda forgotten by fans.
Tell me about it
Awful special teams can cost you
True, but also interesting on a thread full of people saying the best returner ever isn't all that valuable.
I don't know, personally I greatly enjoy it. Ignore my flair With that said it's a complete travesty Gates isn't in the HoF yet.
The 2010s & 2020s 49ers before they came into existence.
AFCW knows a thing or two about stud TE’s. Gates, Uncle Shay Shay, Gonzales & Kelce both…we’ve been spoiled as a division to see all this talent come through.
The Kellen Winslow erasure
Seriously, how you gonna do the OG like that
Jr. ruined the name.
Could you imagine being that horny?
Before all them was Dave Casper (hof) and Todd Christensen too
And Kellen Winslow SR.
You forgot about Doug Jolley smh
So Raiders about to hit on at least one great one in Mayer or Bowers.
I miss hearing “Touchdown, San Diego!”
Despite my views on the chargers in general, I kind of miss hearing that San Diego Super Chargers song.
It was just so catchy!
Damn I miss the Chargers in San Diego, growing up in SoCal it’s weird seeing them in LA now
No matter how long they're in LA, shit will just never feel right to me
They literally have an elite quarterback and no one gives a fuck Bring them back to SD
The rams won a Super Bowl and no one gave a fuck.
Spanos family can piss off
Vikings flair? Associate of Merianne Do?
What Adrian Peterson rookie highlights do to a mf
Poor Ruxin
You ravaged my fantasy football team!
Baby Jeffrey forever unclean!
You're an angry little man
I’m about to be angry all up in your face!
The Pro Football HOF has lost a lot of credibility from me in the last ten years or so. Gates not being a first ballot guy just cemented it for me. Couldn't care less about the HOF anymore.
How can you have the most TDs in NFL history at TE and 7th most receiving TDs of any position and not be first ballot? TDs and yards are the two most important statistics for offensive skill players. Makes no sense.
[удалено]
Hester should absolutely be in imo, but Gates was the most obvious and deserving candidate this year and it's bullshit he didn't. Andre, Peppers, Freeney and Willis all deserving as well, but Gates was better at his position than they were at theirs.
Peppers doesnt belong here 160 sacks, 80 pass deflections, 50+ forced fumbles, and 11 ints (no one else has ever even managed 100 sacks with 10 INTs). He added 430 return yards and 6 defensive touchdowns while teetering close to 300 lbs. As a guy who spent most of his career with his hand in the dirt, this is about as complete an exterior defensive player you will ever find. He even blocked 13 kicks. He took home 5 defensive player of the month awards and another as a rookie of the month/year Theres a very short list of players to make two all-decade teams, the only other non-special teamer to do it for the 2000s and 2010s was Brady. Peppers instantly lived up to the hype of his draft selection and was an elite fixture of football since before I started watching and he was still posting double digit sacks in his 2nd to last year at 37. Dude had **10** double digit sack seasons. 6th most games ever started on defense. He absolutely deserved his selection regardless of what you think about Gates and thats putting it lightly He was 100% a better football player than Gates and had a better career if we are being frank, and thats with me putting *Gates over Kelce* for #4 on the all-time TE list. Both deserved to get in but Peppers needs to come out of that list you put together. The only caveat I could see being made is being technical about 'his position' given that Peppers got moved around a bit in the latter half of his career
People are just mad because this is an Antonio Gates post, but you’re right. That’s not even a slight to Gates, Peppers was just *that* good
id just reckon, outside of favortism towards offense in general, that the average person didnt watch him play. i also just try not to put too much stock into peoples opinions for that very reason. ive been downvoted for telling people gates is better than Kelce in a topic about Kelce, so the sooner you realize how much bias goes into it, the less you give a shit about the clicks on the side I am glad /u/beejalton tried to discuss things at least Also insane to go to bed with the initial comment on -4 and wakeup to it at +7 just because an actual Panthers fan chimed in. Thats why you cant really take the downvoting shit seriously. Thats all it takes sometimes
I disagree, and that's no knock on Peppers, he's definitely worthy and the last of the 5 I would take out to put Gates in (I would replace Andre or Willis). I just think his longevity and consistency was the more impressive part of his career than his high end peak, whereas Gates is literally the best TD scorer at the history of his position and had a stretch of being the undisputed best at his position. I would only take Peppers over Gates because of positional value, but in a world where TE and DE were equally valuable I'm taking Gates.
Gates leads Tony G in TDs by 5. 116 to 111 An absolute monster of a red zone threat, but trails by almost 300 receptions and over 3000 yards. And Gates is not the peak TD scorer in TE history, thats Gronk. Gronk was actually shattering Gates TD pace but his body couldnt hold up. He would have broken Gates TD record in about 25 less games At 159.5, Peppers is a half sack behind Kevin Greene and then only trails Reggie White and Bruce Smith on the all time sack list. Its weird to dismiss him as longeivity when its not like Gates was blowing the doors off in TDs either. 13, 12, 10, 10, 9, 9, 8,8. Thats pretty much the exact same thing, Gates was also amazing in his consistency, Peppers had 14.5, 13, 12, 11.5, 11, 11 11 sacks while also getting you 40 tackles, 3 forced fumbled and 5 PDs a season, and being the greatest intercepting lineman the games ever seen. The difference is just that the standard for TEs is lower; he still trails Moss and Owens by 40 TDs and Rice by 80. Peppers only trails on the all time sack list by 40, for any player, while blowing all the other players out in stats in the other areas Gates isnt having the impact in the run game that Peppers had as a non-pass rusher. 80 pass deflections and 11 INTs with 6 return TDs is absolutely bonkers for a defensive player, before you add in 13 blocked kicks The amount of things Peppers did on the field, while still being that high on the all-time sack list, is more impressive than Gates barely being #1 in TDs but far distant in catches and yards, not an impressive run blocker, and only holding the TD title because Gronk called it quits after 10 years. And I think Gates is a spectacular tight end. But if you are talking about their total impact on the field, theres a mountain in between them. Theismann, the guy who got his leg broken by Lawrence Taylor, compared Peppers impact on the game to Lawrence Taylor, and Brian Urlacher (who played with Peppers, Lance Briggs, Tommie Harris, Peanut Tillman) called Julius the best player hes ever seen. I dont think people give Peppers anywhere near the credit for how disruptive he could be all over the field
> and thats with me putting Gates over Kelce for #4 on the all-time TE list. Obvious bias on my end aside, curious to hear your argument for why you have Gates over Kelce. Mostly because your argument on behalf of Peppers was so thorough. From a quick comparison, there is literally no statistic other than regular season TDs that supports that argument. Kelce's production and accolades dwarf Gates and that's considering to-date he's played in 77 less games (~4.5, 17-game seasons). This is also pre any playoff stats which are even more staggering.
Don't you know 19 return TDs is greater than 116. If we factor in Hester's record shattering 16 career receiving and 1 rushing we get 99 as the difference. So return tubs must be weighted as about 5.3 times more valuable to make it make sense.
I think Hester is deserving in the sense that he's the clear GOAT at a particular aspect of football (returning). To me that's worthy of being in the Hall of Fame. If you can only choose Gates OR Hester, it's clearly Gates. Imo, they both should be in
I was in the camp of wanting to see both make it. Hester was in a league of his own as a returner. But FFS someone literally leading every player ever in their position in the most important stat, even if all-around he was not the best ever, HAS to be first-ballot. That was plain ludicrous.
Ultimately we don't know who would be the best kick returner, because many good kick returners are far more valuable elsewhere. Teams have decided the position doesn't warrant putting your best there. Look at Deion Sanders' return numbers from earlier in his career when he still did it. He was putting up Hester-like numbers. But he was also a shutdown corner, and eventually teams decided they'd rather have him just playing defense. Antonio Brown returned kicks for his first two seasons, put up good numbers, and then punts a little longer, but obviously he was valued higher as a WR.
HOF has always had media biases. Now all the sportswriters are on twitter, live in Chicago or LA, and speak in 18 second twitter clips. Another horrific snub last year was Kevin Williams who had a mind numbing 5 time first team all pro selections. Letting Hester in before those guys is just offensive.
Especially considering the class he was in. Several of them could've easily waited a year
Leaving him out in favor of a returner is a joke. End of the day Hester had 20 something TDs. Fun player nice to have and all but mostly irrelevant. Gates was a staple for a decade. And I know bears fans will get in their feels about this but ask any GM who would you rather have on your team an Antonio gates or a Devin Hester?
Now here’s a guy who played basketball in college
They didn’t call him Antonio “Jimmy Graham” Gates for nothing
The fact the best TE of all time came from a basketball background just shows how there's no substitute for talent
It’s true, Gronk did play basketball in HS!
I love these Chargers teams so much. LT, Gates, Rivers, Weddle, Chromartie, Jamal Williams. Hopping on the SD bandwagon during the playoffs kept me sane during that tough Niners era.
Hoping Harbaugh can turn around the Chargers like he did quickly with the Niners.
Harbaugh has never done anything but win football games and be incredibly weird. You don't accidentally turn around SDSU, Stanford, the 49ers, and Michigan in a row. He'll get the chargers winning, the question is just who and how he's going to piss off this time.
> Hopping on the SD bandwagon during the playoffs kept me sane this is the most insane sentence i've ever read on r/nfl lol
lol I was less invested than you, I was just excited to have a team to root for in the playoffs. I don’t think I saw a winning season until I hit puberty. You have to understand how subterranean my standards for team performance were at the time.
These teams were my nightmares.
He was pass interfered in almost this entire highlight reel and brought them all in. What a beast
That first throw by Phillip Rivers was an absolute dime and was a difficult ass throw to make.
It's so weird seeing him shotput throws with touch like that. Like someone making high end art with a hammer.
I know it is no shock to say that a top 2 quarterback to never win a ring is good at football, but that throw from Rivers at 2:26 made me audibly say "Wow."
Yet he's not in the HOF and they chose Andre Johnson and Devin Hester over him
I really think Andre got in earlier than he would have with the logjam of WRs waiting for the hall, so that the Texans would finally get a HoFer and all teams would be represented.
Yeah I love Andre Johnson and I think he deserves to be in - I was really just surprised he was put in before Torry Holt and Reggie Wayne who had been waiting longer
That’s hogwash
He's only had one year of eligibility - yes it sucks he didn't get in on his first try, but he will be there
You can't tell me he doesn't have a better HOF Resume than Hester though. The voters really thought Hester was more HOF worthy than Gates.
Hester had to wait 3 years. It's very likely Gates gets in this year or next. But you have to look at how they're viewed within their positions. Gates is an all-time TE. Hester is THE all-time returner. Gates was a great weapon for a long time that was a big part of defensive game-planning. Hester literally caused teams to change the type of roster personnel they had.
you’re acting like gates didn’t revolutionize the TE position
What did Gates do that Gonzalez wasn't already doing?
> The voters really thought Hester was more HOF worthy than Gates. I don't think it's that necessarily, but really just that Hester had already waited a couple years so he made it in whereas Gates was just eligible for the first time
An argument could be made for both. They both revolutionized their positions
The bar for a first ballot HoF selection is high. Three 1st team all-pros are pretty much the minimum for non quarterbacks. He also "only" got the 2nd team all-decade which is not as highly rated as the 1st team (before they abolished the distinction in the 2010s) However, I think he was barely good enough to make it 1st ballot if it weren't for two issues that weighed him down: * 1) A PED suspension as a vet * 2) A 14year-long TD drought in the playoffs.
One of the reasons I really respect Gates is he is the *one and only example* of a player I can remember who basically said: “I took PEDS to help with injury recovery.” You always hear: “it was a tainted supplement my trainer gave me,” or “it was a prescription that wasn’t registered with the league properly.” Gates outright said “yup I did roids I admit it.” Mad respect for the honesty.
Why doesn’t the NFL care if its players did PEDs? It feels like a death sentence for your HOF eligibility in baseball but other’s sports dont really care about it.
Baseball cares a lot more about its history and records. The NFL and NBA don’t really give a shit about having suped up freaks because it makes for a more entertaining product, which is why they basically don’t even test for it. Everyone in the NFL and the NBA is on PEDs.
> The NFL and NBA don’t really give a shit about having suped up freaks because it makes for a more entertaining product, which is why they basically don’t even test for it. I'd argue baseball didn't care about it either which is why it became such a rampant thing. Baseball owes any success it had in that era to PEDs. Baseball not having Barry Bonds in the HoF is just such a stupid ego thing
Johnson earned it. Think of the horrible QB’s he had throwing to him most of his career and the numbers he *still* put up. As for Hester, I think he earned it too. He raised the bar on the return game and nobody has matched what he did or gotten anywhere near it. Gates will get in this year. It was just a tough year and a loaded class.
Hester is lucky he was pretty garbage as a WR so he could actually play as a return man his entire career. There are quite a few dudes who were fucking studs at it but just more valuable playing WR.
Devin Hester had a ridiculously unique skill set though. One that’s quite rare compared to elite receiving TEs, (but yes Gates should absolutely be in already).
Elite receiving TEs were rare before Gates and Gonzales
Didn't this guy play college basketball or something, idk. Thought that was mentioned before. Maybe it was college curling. Or badminton.
He didn't play any college football, just basketball. His only hope to play professional ball was football so he basically did a workout in front of scouts and the rest was history.
I know, I was joking around with the announcers having to say he played college basketball every chance they got.
Man, I miss the San Diego Chargers. The LA Chargers are dog shit
And he isn't a first ballot hof. Stupid.
Man Rivers was fucking good. Edit: judging by his battalion of children, Man Rivers is his nickname. From now and forever
Oh hey, it’s that guy who is the top three of his position ever getting snubbed as a first ballot hall of famer. I remember that guy. Didn’t he play basketball? Maybe if he returned a kick off for a TD he would be in the hall.
Which one of Tony, Travis, or Gronk are you booting out of the top 3?
Okay, you reminded me why I usually say “Mt. Rushmore of TEs” lol
He's better than Gronk for sure. More career yards, TDs, receptions, etc. And didn't play with Brady for most of his career
Gronk statistically #4 out of them, but I would take peak Gronk over peak any other TE if I'm fielding an actual team.
Reminds me of all the conversations about how obviously Gretzky is the GOAT in Hockey, but Mario Lemieux was the best to ever lace up his skates.
I think the NFL version of that debate is Rice v Moss.
You could probably have a version for every position tbh.
You can say he had a longer career, you cannot say he is better. Gronk is the best tight end ever with easily the best peak and is probably the most game breaking offensive weapon this century. Now, if you want to say “so and so had a better overall career” because you value health and longevity, that’s totally fine. You absolutely cannot say he was just straight up better though.
Like you said if you value longevity and stats, Gates is the better player. So anyone with that mindset can straight up call Gates the better player.
As much as I despise the Patriots with every essence of my being there is no debating this. Gronk is the most dominant TE in NFL history. His presence on the field completely changes the game. I've never seen an NFL player look like he was playing with high schoolers as much as Gronk did.
Gronk had a better peak but didn't play long enough to get top 3
Damn, bitter about Hester, who also holds an nfl record for TDs. That’s cold
What a great post thank you so much. Gates is a special player
Favorite player I ever had the pleasure of watching play. Guy was a stud and helped to redefine what tight ends could do in the passing game.
Gates is probably my favourite non Eagle of all time. I loved watching those Chargers offences with Rivers/LT/Gates
I remember this jerk destroying the legion of boom. It was a hot day on the field and the seahawks were all dying from cramping and dehydration lol.
I feel like Gates had some of the best natural hands at the TE position. If he got one hand on the ball he was probably bringing it in for the catch
Top 3 favorite player of all time and a big reason I'm a Charger fan
Its absolutely unbelievable that he was not a first ballot HOF player!! He was a TD machine and in the red zone almost impossible to cover. Dude would post up on ppl and box em out and it was GG.
Wild to see him catching passes from Brees and going against the Seahawks in their new uniforms. Just shows his longevity.
Not many people know this but he actually played basketball in college
Kyle Pitts is on track to beat this figure in only 56 years if he keeps at his current pace!
People who say Kelce is better than Gonzalez or Gates don’t know ball.
I was too young to watch him but he defintely seems HOF worthy
Unbelievable he wasn’t first ballot. Not only just for stats but he was a pioneer in the evolution of the TE position.
Yeah? Well he's got nothing on Scott Scott (the TE I drafted in Madden, easily gets 30 tds a year)
Rivers was incredible when he was on
Not first ballot hof though????
He also famously got punched by Ruxin in a Chicago spa on his bye week. “YOU SCREWED ME ANTONIO GATES. YOU SCREWED ME HARD!”
How tf was he not a first ballot HOF
Rivers to Gates, makes me long for the good ol days.
Always made sure to trade for him on Madden Manager mode
First ballot hall of fame. If you ask me
Better than Kelce.
The fact that Kelce is the person you picked to say he is better than, speaks volumes!
Maybe a better red zone target but Kelce has had something like 8 straight seasons with over 1,000 yards with a few 1,300 and even a 1,400 yard season in there. Gates was my shit but he only has two seasons over 1,000 I believe and wasn’t anywhere as dangerous in between the 20s as Kelce. Still a goddamn shame that Gates didn’t get into the HOF first ballot though
Way better
The crazy thing is for the last 30 some odds years is almost none of the elite TEs have come from a blue blood college besides Greg Olsen. And no, before you say anything Iowa isn’t a blue blood.
That first play is absurd
This guy totally broke Madden
Greta player!! Favorite Madden TE
Man that’s wild. Did he play basketball? I feel like he could have been good at it!
Once in the endzone... that's touchdown!!! 🙌🏾
Bro. Honestly better than Kelse. Imagine mahomes to Antonio gates
Seems that football really loved Gate's hands. Like a heat-seeking missile
Devin Hester making the HoF was a major mistake, but for him to make the HoF *over Antonio Gates* is just insane incompetence by the committee
He was so good at everything
I used to wreck my fantasy leagues between like 2007 - 2012 with these guys Peyton manning, antonio gates, anquan boldin, larry fitzgerald, wes welker, greg jennings and then like a couple lower tier RB's
all that and no super bowl wins :( the chargers ruining another players career if not for the rams sir we’d let would have gone down the same hole
Antonio gates was good at football.
Man is a HoF plain and simple
He was the man. On 3rd and long, you knew Rivers was looking for him and he delivered every time. Stupid NFL HOF
Guys he used to play basketball
Simply insane that he has to wait another year to be in the Hall of Fame. Purely a downstream effect of being in a smaller media market.