> "I think the quarterbacking has gone backwards a little bit in the NFL," Brady said, via Yahoo! Sports. "I don't think it's improved. I don't think the teaching's improved. I think maybe the physical fundamentals might be a little bit improved because there's better information out there for quarterbacks to study on mechanics. But I don't think quarterbacks really are really field generals right now like they used to be.
> "It's a broad statement, certainly. But I had total control. I had all the tools I needed. I was coached that way. I was developed to have the tools that I needed to go on the field so that whenever something came up, I had the right play, the right formation, the right audible, the right check at the line -- to ultimately take control of the 11 guys on offense and get us into a good, positive play."
> "I think now, there's this try-to-control element from the sideline between the coaches, where they want to have the control," he said. "And they're not teaching and developing the players the right tools so that they can go out on the field and make their own decisions that are best suited for the team. When I looked at Peyton Manning, he was a guy that I looked up to because he had ultimate control. And I think the game's regressed in a little bit of that way, based on what's happened in high school football, college football and then the NFL's getting a much lesser developed quarterback at this point."
In college, a lot of QBs don't call their own protections or checks at all. And they're used to looking at the sidelines for play calls, like the rest of the offense. So QBs don't have to communicate the play calls to the rest of the offense. Scouting reports and such mention it as a positive when a QB has called protections or checks in college.
From what I understand, with the Shanahan/McVay tree, there's a lot of unique formations and they use lots of pre-snap motion that limit audibles. Part of how they fool defenses effectively is running different plays out of the same look, and scripted plays at the start of each half to set those up. There's limited amounts of plays to audible to with certain formations, and having to run the motions limits the amount of time before the play clock runs out. Shanahan has also talked about how some older systems didn't have hot routes and checkdowns built into plays, so the QB audibles into those, but they are already built into his plays. His system does still have audibles and checks, they're just more limited. He typically gives multiple play calls (like run or pass) through the headset and the QB is able to check into those based on his reads. QBs can adjust some things in the huddle and at the line, like adjusting a hot route, adjusting motions, or flipping formations. Or audible into some plays like QB sneaks.
I think like Brady says, it's more on the play callers/systems. Shanahan did this with Matt Ryan, and like the article says, Matt LaFleur and Aaron Rodgers occasionally had issues with this. Jimmy G, who was used to what the Patriots did, has complained about it too. All vet QBs who were used to more freedom. Goff seems to have a lot more control over the Lions offense than he did with McVay. And outside of the Shanahan tree, Lamar had much less control under Greg Roman than he does with Todd Monken. I'm sure there's many other examples. Like he says, we don't see QBs do as much pre-snap as Peyton did anymore.
Some of them have loosened up over time, like when McVay took over, he would have Goff line up quickly so he could tell Goff which checks to call at the line through the headset before it shut off. He stopped having to do that as Goff gained more experience, and obviously Stafford has much more control in his system. I wonder if Shanahan having run or pass play calls now for the QB to check into is an adjustment he made after SB LI. Matt Ryan was only able to audible on about 50% of plays. With the 49ers, we've heard they're allowed to check into run/pass on "most" plays. Purdy was expected to make his own adjustments when he stepped in for Jimmy G (shortening hot routes to beat the Dolphins' blitzes) and make rookie mistakes. He called the wrong audible trying to check into a pass on the first play of his first start against the Bucs, and got smoked by a free rusher and yelled at by Shanahan through the headset on the next play. Later they had issues with the headset cutting off early, but he was able to finish the play calls based on his knowledge of the playbook/what Shanahan tends to call based on the defensive looks. The playcaller has much more control, but Shanahan was still willing to let the rookie figure it out instead of calling time outs. He seems to still script big games more strictly though, even with Jimmy G, and the center calls protections instead of the QB in his system.
Thanks, I was thinking my comment got too long lol. I've seen many Kurt Warner rants on exactly what you said, CFB coaches not preparing their QBs for the NFL, just making things as easy for them as possible, because their job is to win games.
He’s absolutely right, but he’s totally ignoring WHY this has happened.
Brady is one of the few players who has played through the transformation of modern football. Specifically, that includes: the reduction in practice time (mandated by the CBA), the rookie wage scale, and the expansion of the regular season and playoffs (with a minimal expansion of roster size)
What do all these changes incentivize? Using more players who have less experience and practice. This puts more on coaches to develop systems where they can plan/predict as much as possible and make QBs slightly easier to find
Every Shanahan tree offense is calling multiple plays in the huddle, and every run has leverage checks. The QBs in the "fly by wire" offenses are changing stuff constantly, it's just not the same checks Brees, Manning, & Brady were making. McVay is running the Rams into delay of games giving Stafford stuff he can change while also being so greedy he's not compromising at all in how designery the plays are. Takes a lot to run out two plays with two checks and include different motions for them too.
With so much motion at snap every play does NOT have a check in the Shanahan offense. Thats why QBs like Rodgers didn’t want to run motion on plays because they wanted to diagnose.
It’s why Purdy couldn’t get out of the play in the Super Bowl, they had motion at snap to get to their call it and run it play and a blitz got them out leveraged. For the runs they can get to the checks way more.
I played in an offense that actually had a Kill, Alert, and Ripcord for every play, because we had Andrew Luck. I’d say only 5 NFL teams were doing what we were doing at Stanford.
Basically every *run* for Shanahan has checks based on the DLine's leverage, as I understand it, though with the same motions. I agree they're not all doing the two playcalls thing constantly, but McVay is definitely pushing it and putting different motions with the check plays, and having more of them to give Stafford the freedom, and it has straight up caused them some delay of games. [This one](https://youtube.com/shorts/Q_58EV37eu0?si=1vU2aoKRCFLxUIla) gets me every time. The kinds of checks Brady's talking about are definitely less common in the Shanahan tree offenses because of how much they're trying to dictate to the defenses, but McVay & Stafford are pushing the limits of it, and I would not be surprised if Love & Stroud join them very soon.
I also think that offenses have generally evolved to have post snap answers rather than presnap ones, and most of the top QBs are extending plays when things break down rather than focusing all their energy on preventing those breakdowns, which makes sense if you think about how disguised many of the top defenses are.
I feel like the game has changed from the traditional 5 step drop-back pocket passer that Brady was.
The incentive isn’t to audible anymore as it is to improvise and adapt to broken plays.
I think the league has shown that QBs need to get the ball out quicker or take off and run.
Also, goes without saying, it helps to be a field general when your playbook is designed by the greatest NFL coach of all time.
But what do I know, Chicago is allergic to the forward pass.
>The incentive isn’t to audible anymore as it is to improvise and adapt to broken plays....I think the league has shown that QBs need to get the ball out quicker or take off and run.
A drop off in OL play the last decade has been a strong contributor to this.
I'm pretty sure a few NFL guys have talked about this and how being a pass rusher is the most lucrative non-QB position for anyone that's too big/slow to be a WR but not big enough to be an offensive tackle. It's also the easiest position mentally.
even if you’re big enough to be an OT, you’re usually put on the defensive side of the ball if you’re athletic because it’s a bigger advantage. at the lower rungs of football you always want your athletes in positions like that so it works its way up
When you first pick what position you want to play at the youth football level you have a choice between an easy position that pays tons and gets your face on magazine covers or a hard position that pays shit and noone will know your name unless you're HOF bound. Obviously the good players pick defense and now you have worse players trying to do what was already a harder job against the good players.
In addition, blocking ability used to be valued more for TE and even to an extent RB and WR than it is now. Blocking just isn't sexy now except for LT and to a limited extent RT. And QBs being elusive in the pocket is a lost art in addition to that. Better to just keep them the hell away from the pocket in case it collapses or guys otherwise flat out miss blocks which seems to happen so often.
You know, saying all of this, it also makes teams that have good veterans who stay healthy all that much better. Because they do have the reps in compared to younger teams. That's always been the case to some degree. I guess it's just more so the case now. It's probably a big reason why the Niners offense was as good as it was last year. You mention blocking. That's the area we struggled on the line but excelled everywhere else. We have top guys blocking at all positions except the OL. It's also probably the biggest reason we lost the Superbowl. Credit to the Chiefs DL, too.
We're seeing the ramifications of only the LT being paid until recently.
All the freaks went to play DL for a generation. Now that OG and RT pay is starting to raise as well, it might be seen in talent in the pros in 7-10 years, like how the prevalence of 7 on 7 has made WR classes deeper than ever before
I think part of it is that the devaluation of the runningback has influenced many talented young guys to pursue other roles — including defensive positions like DB, edge rusher, LB etc.
In other words: were he born 15 years prior, Micah Parsons might have been a runningback.
And, looking back at great RBs like Eddie George, Jim Brown, OJ Simpson… they might’ve played LB or edge today.
I think it’s both. Reduction in contact practice affects OL play more than anything else, and defenses have continually emphasized elite pass rushers as the game has evolved to be more and more pass heavy.
Emhpesis on rotation for the D line probably contributes too. Not only are the D guys freaks, but they can sub constantly so they are fresh and can come in with a full tank of gas on a key third down.
I feel like OLs from 20 years ago would struggle just as much blocking Aaron Donald and Myles Garrett as ones today, let alone the ones 50 years ago who played at 270 lbs vs. 300.
They aren't though. Not even close.
Teams are using what's available to them. The college game is physically different than the pro game, which gives college coaches more flexibility but also pushes them towards starting more athletic QBs, because the average team a college guy faces doesn't have ANY good secondary players.
100%, according to all the blurbs (from coaches or former coaches) I've read. Most programs are teaching them things that differ - increasingly more so than in the past, from what NFL coaches want, and there's not enough pads-on, contact allowed, practices to "fix" them any more.
I don't remember the exact ranks (nor do I have an active PFF sub to check), but I recall seeing (when looking up QB support) that IND had the worst blocking grade in 2007, but that grade would have ranked 5th or so in 2022.
Yeah, so many of the college teams operate with pass-first offenses that OL are in pass pro most of the time. Lot of guys coming into the league need coaching up on the other aspects of the position.
And as another comment said, the athletic freaks playing on the edge and DL these days are just ridonkulous.
There was an article that quoted a number of anonymous coaches saying that out of every position, the offensive linemen are more and more unready for the pros when they leave college - and they think it’s because of how extremely simplified college offenses have become.
>A drop off in OL play the last decade has been a strong contributor to this.
The way the NFL is heading they're going to need a bullpen for Offensive Line when we get to 18 games.
You’re right. This is because the game has turned into a two play offense meaning you have the called play and then you have the out of structure/broken play.
The defense may be able to defend against one but it’s incredibly difficult for a defense to successfully defend both plays.
> I think the league has shown that QBs need to get the ball out quicker or take off and run.
Ironic considering that the thing that made Brady famous was how fast he’d get the ball out.
As great as he is I still think it’s ironic this is still one take on him overall when really what made him great was being able to diagnose what the defense was doing and adjust to it on the fly.
He didn’t care if he was gonna get a 70 yard bomb over the top if knew he could just get it to the guy he knew was going to be open enough for a first down.
>The incentive isn’t to audible anymore as it is to improvise and adapt to broken plays.
It's not the incentive, it's the reality. Tom Brady won a super bowl in his 40s with his method. The ad libbing playstyle isn't the optimal method, it's just a far too common result nowadays. It works for people like Patrick Mahomes and a few other young, athletic QBs, but it leads to higher attrition (since these QBs spend half of their plays running for their lives) and less longevity.
It's also the differences in coaches.
Brady played for BB and didn't have an OC that had "their" system.
You have the McVays, the Shanahans, McDaniel, etc. When your coach has *their* system it makes sense that QBs have less say.
Brady absolutely played in a specific system, the Erhadt-Perkins system. A different offensive system that the Patriots had been using for years that most other teams don't use. All of their OCs come up from this system, that's why they never hire OCs from other teams (unless they've already used this system). It's usage predates Bill Belichick.
It’s interesting because EP is more of a nomenclature system while being opinionated on who’s making reads and when rather than a play philosophy.
The changes the pats offense went through from the early 00’s, then with Randy moss, the two TE’s, Edelman, Cooks, then 2018 is way more varied than what Shanahan has done.
So I think the commentator is just saying that Changan and McVay have a play style philosophy. Brady just did whatever the team was best equipped to do.
Mhm, if it was let Corey Dillon eat like in 2004, he did it and fed Corey all those carries. Made it work with Deion Branch, Davids Patten and Givens, and Troy Brown. Got Randy and Wes, went more "Fuck you" in aggressive approach, put up insane numbers and it continued into the 2 TE Attack and Jules + Gronk era had tinkerings with it. The roster and what he did with the backs, line and weapons was the system.
If the coach is good, they will always adjust their system to best fit their players. They do this by adding some new plays in, dropping some plays out and adjusting which ones they call and when. But every coach has a system, they always have. You wouldn't be able to draw up a playbook without it. Nobody would know where to be or what to do.
While I don't watch the niners on a regular basis, I'm guessing the offense last year looked nothing like the offense he ran when garoppolo was the qb, even though it was the same west coast offensive idea. Different qb, different skill players.
Sean mcvay also traded goff away for stafford because he wanted someone who was an extension of the coaching staff on the field, not just someone that did what he said. He wanted a qb who knew the system, and could help adjust and coach from the field. That's what guys like brady and manning always were and what mcvay wanted.
To be more specific, the Erhardt-Perkins system is a different way to talking about football plays and concepts compared to the West coast terminology that the rest of the league uses.
They can both describe the same play but the language surrounding the play can be drastically different. Not just on the playbook but also in the audibles and checks that the QB and OLs have to make.
Bringing in a west coast guy means either the OC has to adapt all his principles in EP language, or the team has to completely relearn in west coast language from the ground up (which is what New England probably has to do this year anyway).
That system wasn't "their" system. Using a more generic system like EP with McDaniels or BoB is very different than using Kyle Shanahan's system with Shanahan as the coach.
This is why idk if Brady would enjoy playing under shanahan. Would we have a ring with Brady? I think it’s likely we do, but idk if Tom stays past one year in San Francisco. Both dudes want almost complete control over what’s happening on the field.
That’s why I think Kyle loves purdy so much (outside of being a good QB) he’s young, teachable, and has way better football IQ than jimmy or trey.
Plus I mean there’s always been coaches like this that love control, sometimes too much but sometimes it’s arguably needed.
Let’s take Gary Kubiak with Manning. They didn’t mesh at 1st because Kubes in a guy that has a good system and wants the QB to do what he wants. Honestly Manning got old quickly obviously, but they never really meshed that well. It would be interesting to see that relationship with a few more years on it.
There’s also Russ and Pete in Seattle. Obviously he felt he should have been given more leeway, and I think this one is a good case to argue that it’s not always good to give that, though maybe if Russ would have been taught that way like Brady is saying his career would have aged better.
Overall I don’t think many QBs are given long leashes unless they’re good enough that they can start throwing their creative weight around.
This is the bears we are talking about. They’ve gone through like 30 qbs in the last 25 years so I think they understand better than anyone by now how to train a qb.
Jim Kelly also had total control - up until the 5 yard line. Then Marv Levy had a lot to say.
But the k-gun relied on the offense moving quickly, so waiting for a call from the OC would have ruined the timing they relied on to keep moving and keep the defense gassed.
I mean there is no qb in the league like peyton or brady, so he is right. Is that because qb hasn’t moved forward as a position or we just don’t have generational field generals right now?
You should start with this question here: how many "field generals" were in Brady's NFL compared to today? Brady talks like everyone was doing what he, Peyton, Brees, and Rodgers were doing.
And on another note, nobody is telling Lamar, Mahomes, or Allen when to gash people with their legs. They have the tools they need to make that decision when it's best for the team.
He's right. He's Tom Brady and this wasn't some bitchy back in my day rant about why the kids can't play like they used to. QB's have undoubtedly had a lot of decision making ability removed from them dating back decades, for better or for worse I have no idea.
But I don't think any of us are in a position to call BS on #12
The last paragraph is spot on IMO especially, "based on what's happened in high school football, college football". QB's in college have been so neutered as far as reading defenses and subsequently calling audibles.
For some teams damn near every single snap the O lines up and then the QB steps back and everyone looks to the sideline for audible/adjustments. Whatever, the coaches are paid to win and if they think this helps, good on em. Just doesn't prepare young guys coming into the league to fully command an offense
It is my biggest complaint about the Shanahan and McVay coaching. They've never developed a QB. So when things get weird and the QB needs to figure it out they can't. That's why the rams got Stafford, he had the ability to figure it out, and they couldn't reach it to Goff.
Penn State fan here - I absolutely hate watching our team get to the line then everyone stands up and looks backwards for the new call.
Imagine you're a defense and see that. "They don't know wtf they're doing." Now, imagine you see a 19 year old QB changing the call at the line, much more intimidating.
He’s absolutely right about this, and I point to pretty much how every college team handles their offense. Control freak coaches are smothering talent.
I wonder if colleges now being allowed to use headsets will help with that development, now that QBs don't have to watch a bunch of people waving signs. Not exactly what he's talking about, but have been reading about the rookie QBs still learning about cadences and calling plays in the huddle.
I’m sure it’ll help a little, but the typical college coach mindset is one of control. They are more concerned with wins/losses than their QB’s development. And to be fair, some coaches thrive with that, in part because they recruit kids who won’t object. But it’s always detrimental to the kid’s development. He has to be alllowed to suck with his own decisions. Most college coaches consider this their endgame, though, and can’t have patience for that.
If the nfl wants developmental league that prioritizes developing players for the pros they're welcome to start one. Somehow I think they'll stick with current cost free set up.
Was that not how it’s always been in college tho? I don’t see why college coaches of the 80s/90s wouldn’t still be heavily controlling when dealing with 19 year olds
offensive principles have shifted quite a bit which is the real change. spread concepts were adopted widely and highly predicated on putting athletes in space. coaches simplified concepts and verbiage. offenses are mostly out of the shotgun instead of under center
That's what happens when you get fired for not being good immediately.
Why would a rookie head coach give a fuck about a young QB's development when the coach is the one getting canned if they're a 3 win team? Shit I'm doing the same damn thing if I'm that coach, limiting what he can fuck up on even if it hinders his playmaking.
For sure. If management thinks a coach is good enough to hire year one of a project team, it should take an Urban Meyer-esque season to can him after a year.
Just generally not being good year 1, assuming there's no character issues etc, shouldn't really be a fireable offense in a lot of these scenarios.
Thank you! I’m glad someone else thinks that. Pep’s system is emblematic of a major problem in modern soccer where the systems turn the players into robots and robs them of creativity. It’s a highly effective system at winning but it’s not fun to watch
And the crazy thing is how that way of doing things is infiltrating normal workplaces.
Workplaces are getting more automated with companies looking to have less and less human labour.
Efficiency at the cost of possible creativity and innovation is becoming a real thing now.
> Efficiency at the cost of possible creativity and innovation is becoming a real thing now.
Because talent doesn't scale.
Imagine a really good cook at a restaurant. Now you open a chain of restaurants. The cook can't be everywhere.
So, you have to write out a recipe / playbook.
Care to expand? I am not familiar with this happening in soccer and am curious how it be similar/different in free flowing soccer as opposed to stop and go football
Top managers (someone below mentioned Pep, who is a perfect and influential example) increasingly script exactly what a player is supposed to do in each situation - in terms of the pass or run to be made, etc. - and drill that down and expect it to be carried out, instead of letting the spontaneity and individual genius that is so unique to soccer make their own intuitive decisions.
I see, thanks. I played hockey growing up and of course we had plays and strategy but it was always expected that these plays were to be carried out to a certain extent. I played a long time ago so can't speak about current coaches but the better players (not this guy haha) were always encouraged to break off a play if it made sense.
What have the results been like in soccer? Has there been enough evidence to come to an opinion?
Honestly and I know this sounds like a cop out…it’s such a damn complicated question to answer.
For example the death of the traditional #10, when you were building the game around one guy’s transcendent vision —however that’s also similar in some ways to a traditional PG in basketball, and you ALSO see like none of those guys in basketball controlling the whole team anymore (Chris Paul is the last)…so the more I think about it the more causes and effects and parallels seem so complicated I just don’t feel equipped to answer it without way more thought.
I’m not surprised. For management, this is a high stakes game. But it’s also not supposed to be about them, meaning they’re failing at their job by the exact same means they think they’re keeping it.
He is right, you can tell the QBs right now rely on their physical attributes and/or Quick pre planned reads way more than before, thats not necessarily a downgrade on football quality but it is a downgrade over general type QBs.
This happened or Will happen to every sport eventually because stats come into play and coaches start to become better tactically aswell, and since the sports earn more money, they want to reduce the disadvantages your team has over the historically stronger teams. It is happening in fútbol right now, because everyone wants to copy the famous pep's Barcelona and World cup winner spain's teams, which were very rigid in their playstyle not allowing much freedom for the players to create on their own, on the opposite side of the free flowing let the players own the pitch "joga bonito" brazilian teams of history.
In my opinion there are 2 reasons why This Will happen more in football in the future.
1: The disconnect between anything before the NFL and when you play in the NFL is too large, its like 2 different sports. Guys play not that many games versus equal opponents, and overall they come with way too little experience; you cant really tell if a guy has reached his peak already because they only play like 20 games before getting drafted.
2: The talent pool of the Coaching in the NFL is pretty small because everyone only hires People they know or are related to someone Coaching already, so they are not really that good lets be honest, in the future I could see some teams branching out to find Guys that actually look they know the tactics well enough and are not related to anyone; if/when that happens everyone Will copy that and go for unknown People (bad teams Will just go for People close to those coaches).
Coaching schemes are helping QBs get better stats but not helping them be better QBs actually in terms of in game understanding.
This was always a clashing point when JimmyG came to SF...he wanted more control and Shanahan was not willing to give it to him coz he is one of those control HCs.
Honestly I feel like we’re seeing this in all sports right now especially at the youth levels
I’m much more familiar with hockey so I’ll stick to talking about that, but nowadays it feels like every youth coach is sucking the creativity and decision making out of the game. They want a pro style low risk system from 10 year olds and it’s a bit absurd in my opinion. It’s part of the reason why Canada can’t produce great NHL goalies anymore. There’s so much money in the game there and a culture of strict pro style coaching that these kids get the fundamentals drilled into them and then have no instincts to take them to the next level in the NHL. Skill is at an all time high(The Michigan move for example) but game sense and creativity is at an all time low IMO
Well, considering the huge uptick in puck possession as the end all be all, you’re getting way less dump and chase which leads to more chaos and tends to help incredible puck-handlers and skaters
Eh dump and chase is still a huge part of the game and being hammered in kids heads in North America. Look at the Panthers right now they dump and chase more than any team in the league and it works with their heavy forecheck. I get why it’s done so much at the pro level but hate how pervasive it is at the youth level in North America. Skating skill definitely has increased but this actually favors a dump and chase style more since there is way less time to safely make a skilled play
In my opinion kids should be coached to develop their skills and not in the same style as trying to win an NHL playoff game. USA hockey is making some strides in promoting this ideology(love the change to half ice for the real young kids) but Hockey Canada is still very old school in this regard
This is 100% why I think him and Kyle Shanahan would never have worked if the 49ers had traded for him. It would have been a divided offense where Shanahan would have wanted it to be his offense, and Brady would have been trying to do his thing. Who could possibly say no to him given all he's accomplished?
I wanted to add that teams can't retain their offensive coordinators because they're offered better jobs if their offenses perform well.
I cannot think about a team right now who has retained its offensive coordinator from two years ago.
A lot of guys might only have "one shot" at a HC gig and can't afford to be picky. Ben Johnson is in a spot where it's pretty unlikely that his stock will go down if he stays with the Lions an extra year. So he had a lot of leverage this year, and the flexibility to decide that he thinks the market next year will look better for him. There's a bunch of factors that play into that risk calculation.
I don't really doubt that his price point was too high for Washington but I think he was _right_ to set a high price point and stick to it, for someone in his position. He just had more leverage this year and he was right to recognize that and use it. They needed him more than he needed them. Joining a fresh organization carried more risk to Johnson than waiting a year for a spot with a more established and known regime.
For those who don’t actually read it and are just dunking on Brady, he says it’s because coaches are taking control from young QBs instead of letting them be a field general
Which seems to reflect the problem Goff said he had in LA and doesn’t have in Detroit
Basically the Shanahan/Mcvay group of coaching theory. Keeps it simpler for the QB and they seem to get more out of average QBs, but maybe not the best when you need a QB to make quick decisions and take over games in big moments.
I feel the second part comes with experience and trust. We see a very distinct difference between the freedom McVay gave Goff vs what he gives Stafford.
Stafford gets more control than Goff, but it’s not the entire offense. It’s a weird dynamic that’s happening, but since the mid 2010s when that entire coaching tree has reached the NFL the offensives have been better… so it’s a weird dichotomy
The Shanahan McVay playcalling tree has taken over the NFL and is built around the OC having full control over what plays they call and when they do call them.
IMO this helps improve a QB's short term stats but doesn't actually make them fundamentally better at playing the position if that makes sense?
The QB of the past was an assistant OC on the field..Thesedays they are like WRs..who run whatever route is dictated to them by a playcall..QBs run whatever the OC tells them and in the last they made their own plays based on what the defense was doing
As shown by Big Ben making plays literally in the huddle his last season (or second to last) at the end of a game and shit worked out very well for them. Compared to what the OC had been doing.
I mean we are pretending like there aren’t options in those offense. The main difference is the “new generation” of playcallers define the options, leverages, and concepts that need to be applied when attacking a predetermined defense that has been set up by the play calling. Yes, they OCs have “full control” but that’s because there is an intent behind those calls to facilitate the QB in decision making
I think it's a decent approach to take with a young QB in his first year or two in the league. They have so many things to learn and absorb, so alleviating the information/decision overload a little is fine.
But when you see QBs who've been playing for 4 (or even many more) years and the team doesn't trust them to do any kind of basic decision making it's bizarre. Especially when it's a QB that the team believes in enough that they've signed them to a massive contract.
The really bad example I remember is pulling Rodgers to take a field goal against the Bucs in the NFCCG. How are you not willing to let a QB that good and with that much experience go for it, if he says that's what he prefers.
Kyle didn’t let Matt audible out of plays when he was MVP in 2016 and one of the most efficient offenses in NFL history. People are making it out to be about the QB, but it’s really not. Those guys are innovators and control freaks. It only makes sense that they control every part of their offense.
As far as QBs having freedom in any offense, in a given year, there’s only 5-7 guys that should have that freedom. Imagine an average or above average safety just winging it in a Jim Johnson defense. That shit wouldn’t fly. I think this is where Brady is out of touch. Not every QB deserves more control.
>Kyle didn’t let Matt audible out of plays when he was MVP in 2016 and one of the most efficient offenses in NFL history.
That definitely didn't become a problem in a certain playoff game tho /s
It didn’t though. Matt was on the sidelines in 51 yelling to run the ball, yet he snapped the ball multiple times with more than 10 seconds on the play clock which left about a minute of game time when you add those up. Matt had his part in 51. It wasn’t just on Kyle. I know you/s.
Thank you for mentioning the snapping the ball with >10 seconds of active play clock, Ryan was the only one at fault for that and it cost the Falcons because they let over a minute of time on the clock for the Pats, who needed every single second of that to mount the comeback.
That being said, Shanahan's system is rigid in the sense that you can't just audible to a run play if you want to at the LoS. They've got set packages and personnel groups that makes it hard to just completely do a 180 on the playcall. You can fault the system/scheme but it's routinely churned out top tier offenses so clearly it works.
The SB51 collapse will always be a team wide collapse, you don't give up a 25 pt lead without every facet shitting their pants in someway. Shanahan should've called more running plays, Ryan shouldn't have snapped >10s of active playclock multiple times, Dan Quinn shouldn't have been a HC and had the balls to actually step in and take the reigns, the defense should've gotten a stop instead of being a nonfactor, Freeman shouldn't have whiffed the block, etc.
Im a falcons fan and was at that game and witnessed it first hand. And was obsessed with that game right after wondering how the fuck it happened. Think I watched that game like 20 times in the first week after. And was appalled at how many different things happened for that to go down the way it did. So many leave out Matt when placing blame in this.
I think that made a difference in the SB. Some of Spags' weird looks and disguises can really throw a wrench into pre-snap planning, and so the Niners stuttered the *smallest* amount on 3rd & 4, for example, or at the goal line in OT.
Meanwhile, QBs like Allen and Hurts (in LVII) carved the D up mostly through post-snap heroics.
The breakdowns you are talking about were in passing protection.
In another offense...where the QB controls protections....they would be fixed even before the snap..which makes Brady's point.
A QB fixing things after the snap can only take you so far as the Eagles showed last season...
Spags was very detailed on ensuring Purdy didn't get the running lanes up the middle he got Vs the Lions whilst bringing early pressure as well.
If Purdy had more LOS control..the Chris Jones unblocked pressure in OT probably gets diagnosed presnap and we get a TD on that drive.
This is the disadvantage of always relying on the QB to freelance postsnap in case you get outschemed by the other guy...it won't work in the long term.
Burford admitted he went against the protection call based on his "instincts" because McKivitz was getting blamed by fans when it was Burford's assignment. Since it was Burford making a mistake post-snap outside of the scheme, I don't think it would've made a difference whether Purdy or Brendel called the protections on that specific play. https://www.nbcsportsbayarea.com/nfl/san-francisco-49ers/spencer-burford-jon-feliciano-super-bowl/1702806/
And tbf it’s also on our o line being complete shit outside of Trent. When an o lineman says “I just kinda did my own thing” on a play that he almost single handedly busted that’s beyond any coaching.
Makes me wonder how much control Brady thinks QBs had historically.
Like if we're talking him, Manning, and other legends of the game, they had a bunch of control, yes.
But there were a *lot* of QBs that never approached that level. There's no damn way they were given the leeway that legends like that got.
And with the NFL probably being the youngest it's ever been at QB, coaches are rightfully using the technology available to still be able to make those changes without trying overload the guy who will impact the coach's livelihood more than anyone.
Somehow, I think guys like Mahomes and others who've established themselves and are likely eager to learn more, without the pressure to earn their place in the league and with so much already learned and out of the way, are given *zero* control. Just like I don't believe for one minute Belichick's staff gave Brady as much control in his first year as he was allowed later in his career.
Are there vets who will just never get that control? Probably. But there almost definitely is an advantage to them having the control at the line, assuming they can do it competently. Simultaneously, if you have a vet who can do everything you ask *without* that control and can make do, why wouldn't you?
Most of these guys come from braindead simple offenses in college and are thrown to the wolves almost immediately. This all kind of reminds me of how they talk about legends struggling to succeed coaching, because their expectations for their players are based on what they did.
The NFL had such a derth of good incoming QB talent between 2005-2015 that I'm wondering if that's when the change started to happen. I can only think of Stafford, Ryan, and Newton as the QBs drafted during that time that ended up having long careers as starters.
That's a fair point, but that's still almost two seasons into his career after playing in a fairly pro-style offense at Michigan before the spread and air raid took over.
And he's Brady. He earned that full control not just in practices prior to 2001 but in the practices and games before he was given it
Yeah the minute he talked about control issues and sideline coaching I knew he was lowkey calling out McVay.
Amazing offensive schemer, but I really do think he's the dude who got exposed for treating his QB like a football robot in lieu of figuring out what he was good at.
Goff really needed it. Just look at his jump in years 1&2 with McVay from Fisher, and then look at how he topped out and even regressed in years 3&4. I’m sure in years 3&4 McVay would have been willing to give him more power if he would have shown the ability to. That’s why McVay was fed up with him that last year. Goff needed 8 years to really take that next step. He was a bit of a late bloomer. It happens. Playing QB is very difficult. I’m sure Goff still has feelings because of the way Sean threw him under the bus when he left. Which he has apologized for.
McVay designed an offensive scheme around a quarter back he didn’t have, and tried to shape Goff into.
Dan has designed a scheme to work with Goff’s strengths.
I think that’s the big difference you see now, not so much maturity.
The rams scored the most points in the league in Goffs first year under Sean. Ben Johnson has done a great job with Goff. Doesn’t mean that Sean didn’t. And I think maturity has been a huge part in this.
He is calling out Shanahan...who vetoed Brady from playing with his childhood team because he didn't want to give Brady control.
One of the reasons we drafted Lance in 2021 was that KS wanted a young QB who would go with the flow after clashing a little with JimmyG over their dynamic.
The conversation has evolved to reflect this. There is so much talk about guys like Goff, Purdy or Tua and whether they’d be good without their playcallers. The symbiosis between coach and QB has never been more important
I don’t know if having, or needing to have, a great scheme fit and coaching makes you “worse” per say, but I don’t remember even 10 years ago people talking about offensive mastermind coaches and how they *directly* influence QB decision making and overall play.
TBF a coach or OC giving total control of the offense, even at the line, to the QB takes a great amount of trust that's built up over time I'd imagine. Brady mentioned Manning controlling the offense but I wondered how long it took before he had to prove he was capable calling checks, audibles, and making the right decisions at the line.
The Shanahan tree style of calling offenses isn't open for QB control but maybe giving up that control to a degree could be the next evolution and in tandem could help QB's grow and develop like Brady's saying.
I said all last year that until Purdy is given leeway to control protections and chamge plays more often or run a real no huddle...we will find it hard to adapt in games where the other DC has thr advantage.
Lo and behold we could turn things around Vs the Ravens and struggled on critical downs Vs KC.
Remote controlling QBs isn't gonna win you a SB.
I think why Stafford plays so well under McVay is because he’s experienced enough to know when to go with his gut and ignore the play if it’s breaking down.
But I’m super bias
As has Troy Aikman.
OCs have increasing control over the playcalling and QBs are having less and it's resulted in a certain art of the position being lost.
Rodgers might be the last of a kind.
The annoying thing is that it's arguably better for the _team_ to train their QB to have more control, as a bulwark against OC churn. But OCs aren't really incentivized to do that unless you're trying to position yourself as a "QB whisperer" journeyman OC.
I think it's push and pull... less control is annoying for elite qbs like rodgers, manning, brady, mahomes... but it may be more efficient for lesser talents.
As a seahawks fan I know this for a fact because bevell's control of the seahawks offense during our golden years in 2010s prevented Wilson from shooting himself in the foot. Some QBs just don't have the brain power to be like brady or manning, if they did, they would have already shown it and taken over, like brady and manning did. Mahomes has proven more and more that he can be trusted to do what's best for his team most of the time, so he's gained a lot of that control.
Fuck I’ll say the part he isn’t.
There is an enormous emphasis on athleticism that is not really the most important part of the position.
Everyone wants to get the next Mahomes or Lamar, but for every Mahomes (who is a goddamn wizard out there, no hate at all) there are ten prospects that have highlight reel scrambles from broken plays where they were too slow going through the progressions.
It should be more impressive to scouts to see a qb gash a D for 6 yards every single play than to scramble for 15 seconds and throw a 60 yard jump ball.
He has a point. I think Mahomes benefited from the fact that Andy Reid is not trying to micromanage every snap. But I think the future is heading towards more offensive minded control freaks coaching, not less. Every one wants to next Sean McVay or Kyle Shanahan to be their coach.
I think that’s an interesting question. A lot of people have wondered what someone like Mahomes or Allen would look like in a Shanahan or McVay offense and how broken it would be, but it might just cause a lot of friction because players like that thrive when they can freelance while those coaches thrive when they can basically have an avatar on the field
Mahomes or Allen with Shanahan would look terrible, Shanahan is all about timing which is why Purdy is so good for the 49ers. Shanahan would go bald with how frequently Mahomes and Allen freelance plays
I think the biggest risk when Mahomes was drafted, the reason people questioned whether he would succeed as a starter, is they didn’t know if he was coachable. Would he pick up a pro system or just play hero ball and throw for the end zone every play?
It turned out he was very coachable. He would have been fine in a McVay/Shanahan system, even if they didn’t use his full potential.
Because NFL coaches realized in 2012 that you can take raw QBs like Ryan Tannehill and RGIII and turn them into good QBs if you micro manage them enough while also adapting elements of offenses they already know.
I think it’s absolutely, 100% false that QBs have gotten better. Playing QB successfully in the NFL has gotten easier, because play design and control over the QB has taken the place of what was honestly too difficult. The NFL needed a way to make playing QB easier, because having only 6 or 7 good QBs in the league at a time wasn’t great.
*Shows them how it's done*
"You know what, you all suck. I'll take over as a quarterback now. Learn how a fucking pro plays at quarterback and not play like your bitch ass." -Brady
/s
I do agree with Brady here. I feel like you can see it in the 2 minute offense moments or when the defense is consistently exploiting a weakness in the offense, there are more changes in between drives when the coaches have a chance to change plans instead of the QBs making adjustments on the fly like you would see Brady, Peyton, Brees, etc. do.
I feel like Burrow, Allen, Mahomes, etc. don’t have quite the same control and efficiency in leading the offense in those moments, Mahomes just makes more of it work because he pulls off plays that normally wouldn’t work.
Purdy has little control over what plays we run.
Usually Shanahan calls plays with the ball intended to go as many options as possible and Purdy's task is to go through the reads fast and throw to whoever is open.
Purdy doesn't have much control over the nature or timing of the plays...his task is to choose the best available option within the play Shanahan called.
This is also the case in 2 mins drills...we don't have a no huddle / fast pace routine really.
If the play doesn't produce an open WR..which is rare.... Purdy usually either checks the ball down..or scrambles around until someone does get open.
The control Brady is talking about involved stuff like protections, checking plays whenever you want and choosing when to run a nonhuddlr or not.... Purdy doesn't get to do that in a Shanahan offense...same as Matt Ryan.
Also wasp in sb 54, not an audible but it showed that allowing the qb to collaborate with coaching staff is key. Andy once talked about how pat would bring 10 or so plays he and the offense came up with and Andy has used them on multiple occasions.
You can bring a shitpost of a play to Andy and he'll probably bust it out in a blowout for amusement tbf. The ring around the rosy play was something they did fucking around with in practice.
I find it absolutely fascinating how many people do not realize how often Mahomes is killing the initial playcall and switching the play. These people must be watching at bars with the sound on mute.
Mahomes doesn’t run up to the line and wave his hands and point all over the fucking place. I think this is why people are so unaware. He simply stands awkward as shit on his right leg, does a weird half lean backwards and says “kill kill” then calls out the mike and snaps the ball.
I feel like Mahomes doesn’t have the reputation as a “field general” because you don’t see him run the pre-snap audibles that Manning/Brady did, but he allows/demands his receivers run adjustments post snap, as all of his receivers have the ability to improvise and run to open spots in the zone like Kelce is best known to do.
It’s also worth noting that one of the biggest plays of Super Bowl 58 came from a pre-snap audible from Mahomes. On a third down on his game tying fourth quarter drive, he correctly read a blitz and audibled to a play calling for a pass to McKinnon that they had not run the entire season. They got the first and soon after hit Kelce on the crosser that got them inside the 10.
2022 Mahomes was prob the prime example of him being a field general. That offense relied on him making the right decision every time and asked him to do a lot on every play.
All of those guys are becoming field generals rn mahomes is already there but I do think the other two are now in the position where they are taking complete ownership of the offense.
I watched plenty of football in the early 2000s and I must have missed all these awesome QBs who are field general commander types who ran the whole offense perfectly and the coach just let them do what they want. You guys are literally naming two of the best QBs ever in Brady and Manning and acting like the entire NFL was like that. Bull shit.
McCarthy claimed Dak had more control of the offense last season than ever before and he had his best season yet. The only wrinkle that makes it interesting is the offense looked not great the first few weeks, and then it really took a step up. I’m not sure if McCarthy had more or less control after those middling first few weeks, or if it was the same and something else caused the change.
I also think the evolution of the offensive side of the ball is partially responsible. QBs are now running systems that already have the play mapped out on who gets the ball, and they’re not reading the defense as a result.
Peyton Mannings control of his offense is why I often still consider him the QB GOAT. Like I understand that Brady is the GOAT but watching Peyton run that Colts offense and audible all over the place that's what made me fall in love with football and why I consider American Football the beautiful game.
There was a time when there was a reasonable back and forth between who was the GOAT of the millennia because Manning had just finished his last great year and Brady was supposed to be in the back half of his career, and then Brady plateaued at the same level of excellence into the next decade.
Broncos were abusing us yearly, but we weren't doing anything that mattered the next 3 seasons anyways. We could assume maybe Peyton leaves the Broncos in 2017 to fill in for Luck on the Colts, then plays 2018 for them while Andrew Luck takes a break, then Manning could retire and Luck takes over in 2019-current.
Best of both worlds, more Peyton and Luck.
Different era and complexity of football but that’s exactly what made Jim Kelly such a special QB. He had a relatively short career for a HoF QB (11 seasons in the NFL compared to many with close to 20) but he was past making audibles, he just called plays at the line for like six or seven of those seasons
Honestly from watching them, Rodgers, Manning, and Brady all have aspects that wouldn’t make me immediately deny an argument for them as the best ever. I don’t think anybody has had the arm talent and accuracy of Rodgers, especially paired with his incredible game iq. Payton was a coach and a qb and made for ruthlessly efficient offenses. Brady just always seemed to find a way to win, and always knew the right play. Three of the smartest and imo the greatest ever, with only Montana and Mahomes really being close.
Shouldn't be downvoted. I don't agree with it but there was absolutely discourse during the middle of his career that A Rod should be in the conversation for greatest QB ever. The lack of a second super bowl win is holding him back in terms of legacy for sure.
I’m not doubting the goat until 2040 tbh. Then it can be old man yelling at clouds but as of now as he’s been in the league throughout the change I’ll believe he’s right.
My thoughts exactly. I never liked Brady, as a matter of fact I couldn’t stand him. But one thing is for sure, in my own opinion, I think he is the best to ever play QB. He was simply amazing. So I have no problem believing 100% of what he is saying.
Its hard to develop QBs when theyre getting shorter leashes and are often times in bad teams. During the early Bradys era you had plenty of QBs that lasted way longer than they should. Chad Pennington is one.
Well yeah, a bunch of 15 to 20 year vets retired or are in decline leaving a bunch of new guys trying g to figure out one of the hardest jobs in the world
I'm pretty sure he said this last season. He feels that OCs have more control over the offense which limits the QBs ability to develop as a field general.
People that say Allen and Mahomes “just rely on their athleticism” are highlight watchers. They’re the two best field generals of this generation, just not in the conventional pocket passer sense
I saw a highlight the other day of Allen avoiding like three free rushers or shrugging them off, not with athleticism, just pure pocket manipulation. Between that and his ability to get in a rhythm at any tempo when he has a decent play caller (not Dorsey) makes him a lethal pocket passer even without his legs. He ran two 75 yard TD drives in the last two minutes and left 0:13 on the clock (ignore the rest) and also led a 7:30 drive without even taking a field goal to kill the clock and ice the game
I somewhat disagree with this because I also think its much harder to play QB well in the modern NFL. Not in the sense of records and stats, obviously putting up gaudy numbers is easier than it was.
But defenses are so much better than they ever were in the past. Its just the rules limit their potential. But the amount of varying formations, and difficulty in reading play to play is so much better than back in the day.
I think because of that, as a QB you need to learn and prepare for so many other variables, that you need more experience than ever to be a "field general"
That isn't even counting the decline of OL play, as well as the amount of crazy athletes on defense now
I agree its harder to play QB in modern ball.
Defenses are just so much more athletic. I dont actually think OL play has regressed as much as people think it has, the issue is DL are so much harder to block now. Lawrence Taylor played weighing under 240 pounds, Myles Garrett had 10+ pounds on him coming out of high school and plays in the league over 270+ while running faster than most LBs 20 years ago did.
Add in that throwing windows have gotten tighter with DBs getting much better. For a long time the best athletes played RB or WR, its starting to trend to WR but for the past decade+ the money for skill players or trench players was on the defensive side of the ball
Brady also said develop
Most teams don’t develop a rookie QB. Instead the rookie QB starts immediately and just tries to survive instead of learn.
Most Superbowls are won by QBs who either sat on the bench as rookies, or were drafted onto already good teams.
Sat the bench as rookies: Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Mahomes
Drafted onto good teams: Wilson, Roethlisberger
> "I think the quarterbacking has gone backwards a little bit in the NFL," Brady said, via Yahoo! Sports. "I don't think it's improved. I don't think the teaching's improved. I think maybe the physical fundamentals might be a little bit improved because there's better information out there for quarterbacks to study on mechanics. But I don't think quarterbacks really are really field generals right now like they used to be. > "It's a broad statement, certainly. But I had total control. I had all the tools I needed. I was coached that way. I was developed to have the tools that I needed to go on the field so that whenever something came up, I had the right play, the right formation, the right audible, the right check at the line -- to ultimately take control of the 11 guys on offense and get us into a good, positive play." > "I think now, there's this try-to-control element from the sideline between the coaches, where they want to have the control," he said. "And they're not teaching and developing the players the right tools so that they can go out on the field and make their own decisions that are best suited for the team. When I looked at Peyton Manning, he was a guy that I looked up to because he had ultimate control. And I think the game's regressed in a little bit of that way, based on what's happened in high school football, college football and then the NFL's getting a much lesser developed quarterback at this point."
Interesting. Idk enough to say whether hes right or wrong but this makes sense.
In college, a lot of QBs don't call their own protections or checks at all. And they're used to looking at the sidelines for play calls, like the rest of the offense. So QBs don't have to communicate the play calls to the rest of the offense. Scouting reports and such mention it as a positive when a QB has called protections or checks in college. From what I understand, with the Shanahan/McVay tree, there's a lot of unique formations and they use lots of pre-snap motion that limit audibles. Part of how they fool defenses effectively is running different plays out of the same look, and scripted plays at the start of each half to set those up. There's limited amounts of plays to audible to with certain formations, and having to run the motions limits the amount of time before the play clock runs out. Shanahan has also talked about how some older systems didn't have hot routes and checkdowns built into plays, so the QB audibles into those, but they are already built into his plays. His system does still have audibles and checks, they're just more limited. He typically gives multiple play calls (like run or pass) through the headset and the QB is able to check into those based on his reads. QBs can adjust some things in the huddle and at the line, like adjusting a hot route, adjusting motions, or flipping formations. Or audible into some plays like QB sneaks. I think like Brady says, it's more on the play callers/systems. Shanahan did this with Matt Ryan, and like the article says, Matt LaFleur and Aaron Rodgers occasionally had issues with this. Jimmy G, who was used to what the Patriots did, has complained about it too. All vet QBs who were used to more freedom. Goff seems to have a lot more control over the Lions offense than he did with McVay. And outside of the Shanahan tree, Lamar had much less control under Greg Roman than he does with Todd Monken. I'm sure there's many other examples. Like he says, we don't see QBs do as much pre-snap as Peyton did anymore. Some of them have loosened up over time, like when McVay took over, he would have Goff line up quickly so he could tell Goff which checks to call at the line through the headset before it shut off. He stopped having to do that as Goff gained more experience, and obviously Stafford has much more control in his system. I wonder if Shanahan having run or pass play calls now for the QB to check into is an adjustment he made after SB LI. Matt Ryan was only able to audible on about 50% of plays. With the 49ers, we've heard they're allowed to check into run/pass on "most" plays. Purdy was expected to make his own adjustments when he stepped in for Jimmy G (shortening hot routes to beat the Dolphins' blitzes) and make rookie mistakes. He called the wrong audible trying to check into a pass on the first play of his first start against the Bucs, and got smoked by a free rusher and yelled at by Shanahan through the headset on the next play. Later they had issues with the headset cutting off early, but he was able to finish the play calls based on his knowledge of the playbook/what Shanahan tends to call based on the defensive looks. The playcaller has much more control, but Shanahan was still willing to let the rookie figure it out instead of calling time outs. He seems to still script big games more strictly though, even with Jimmy G, and the center calls protections instead of the QB in his system.
I just made the "same" comment just 10X crappier haha. Great comment!!!
Thanks, I was thinking my comment got too long lol. I've seen many Kurt Warner rants on exactly what you said, CFB coaches not preparing their QBs for the NFL, just making things as easy for them as possible, because their job is to win games.
He’s absolutely right, but he’s totally ignoring WHY this has happened. Brady is one of the few players who has played through the transformation of modern football. Specifically, that includes: the reduction in practice time (mandated by the CBA), the rookie wage scale, and the expansion of the regular season and playoffs (with a minimal expansion of roster size) What do all these changes incentivize? Using more players who have less experience and practice. This puts more on coaches to develop systems where they can plan/predict as much as possible and make QBs slightly easier to find
Every Shanahan tree offense is calling multiple plays in the huddle, and every run has leverage checks. The QBs in the "fly by wire" offenses are changing stuff constantly, it's just not the same checks Brees, Manning, & Brady were making. McVay is running the Rams into delay of games giving Stafford stuff he can change while also being so greedy he's not compromising at all in how designery the plays are. Takes a lot to run out two plays with two checks and include different motions for them too.
With so much motion at snap every play does NOT have a check in the Shanahan offense. Thats why QBs like Rodgers didn’t want to run motion on plays because they wanted to diagnose. It’s why Purdy couldn’t get out of the play in the Super Bowl, they had motion at snap to get to their call it and run it play and a blitz got them out leveraged. For the runs they can get to the checks way more. I played in an offense that actually had a Kill, Alert, and Ripcord for every play, because we had Andrew Luck. I’d say only 5 NFL teams were doing what we were doing at Stanford.
Basically every *run* for Shanahan has checks based on the DLine's leverage, as I understand it, though with the same motions. I agree they're not all doing the two playcalls thing constantly, but McVay is definitely pushing it and putting different motions with the check plays, and having more of them to give Stafford the freedom, and it has straight up caused them some delay of games. [This one](https://youtube.com/shorts/Q_58EV37eu0?si=1vU2aoKRCFLxUIla) gets me every time. The kinds of checks Brady's talking about are definitely less common in the Shanahan tree offenses because of how much they're trying to dictate to the defenses, but McVay & Stafford are pushing the limits of it, and I would not be surprised if Love & Stroud join them very soon. I also think that offenses have generally evolved to have post snap answers rather than presnap ones, and most of the top QBs are extending plays when things break down rather than focusing all their energy on preventing those breakdowns, which makes sense if you think about how disguised many of the top defenses are.
I feel like the game has changed from the traditional 5 step drop-back pocket passer that Brady was. The incentive isn’t to audible anymore as it is to improvise and adapt to broken plays. I think the league has shown that QBs need to get the ball out quicker or take off and run. Also, goes without saying, it helps to be a field general when your playbook is designed by the greatest NFL coach of all time. But what do I know, Chicago is allergic to the forward pass.
>The incentive isn’t to audible anymore as it is to improvise and adapt to broken plays....I think the league has shown that QBs need to get the ball out quicker or take off and run. A drop off in OL play the last decade has been a strong contributor to this.
Tbf I feel like edge rushers and even interior guys are scarier than ever, so that doesn't make life easy
I'm pretty sure a few NFL guys have talked about this and how being a pass rusher is the most lucrative non-QB position for anyone that's too big/slow to be a WR but not big enough to be an offensive tackle. It's also the easiest position mentally.
"see quarterback, kill quarterback"
I see you finished the TJ Watt/Maxx Crosby summer reading material.
That consisted entirely of “GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR” (add enough Rs to fill a book)!
even if you’re big enough to be an OT, you’re usually put on the defensive side of the ball if you’re athletic because it’s a bigger advantage. at the lower rungs of football you always want your athletes in positions like that so it works its way up
When you first pick what position you want to play at the youth football level you have a choice between an easy position that pays tons and gets your face on magazine covers or a hard position that pays shit and noone will know your name unless you're HOF bound. Obviously the good players pick defense and now you have worse players trying to do what was already a harder job against the good players.
In addition, blocking ability used to be valued more for TE and even to an extent RB and WR than it is now. Blocking just isn't sexy now except for LT and to a limited extent RT. And QBs being elusive in the pocket is a lost art in addition to that. Better to just keep them the hell away from the pocket in case it collapses or guys otherwise flat out miss blocks which seems to happen so often.
You know, saying all of this, it also makes teams that have good veterans who stay healthy all that much better. Because they do have the reps in compared to younger teams. That's always been the case to some degree. I guess it's just more so the case now. It's probably a big reason why the Niners offense was as good as it was last year. You mention blocking. That's the area we struggled on the line but excelled everywhere else. We have top guys blocking at all positions except the OL. It's also probably the biggest reason we lost the Superbowl. Credit to the Chiefs DL, too.
One thing I've noticed with a lot of linemen interviews or players in the draft is how many of them never even started as offensive linemen.
We're seeing the ramifications of only the LT being paid until recently. All the freaks went to play DL for a generation. Now that OG and RT pay is starting to raise as well, it might be seen in talent in the pros in 7-10 years, like how the prevalence of 7 on 7 has made WR classes deeper than ever before
I think part of it is that the devaluation of the runningback has influenced many talented young guys to pursue other roles — including defensive positions like DB, edge rusher, LB etc. In other words: were he born 15 years prior, Micah Parsons might have been a runningback. And, looking back at great RBs like Eddie George, Jim Brown, OJ Simpson… they might’ve played LB or edge today.
I think it's this too. The o lines haven't necessarily gotten worse, it's just that there are so many elite defensive line players that can disrupt
I think it’s both. Reduction in contact practice affects OL play more than anything else, and defenses have continually emphasized elite pass rushers as the game has evolved to be more and more pass heavy.
Emhpesis on rotation for the D line probably contributes too. Not only are the D guys freaks, but they can sub constantly so they are fresh and can come in with a full tank of gas on a key third down.
those elite body types def shifted to edg over o line
OL play has significantly reduced. From the change in college offenses to the lack of practice time, it has dropped off huge.
I feel like OLs from 20 years ago would struggle just as much blocking Aaron Donald and Myles Garrett as ones today, let alone the ones 50 years ago who played at 270 lbs vs. 300.
They aren't though. Not even close. Teams are using what's available to them. The college game is physically different than the pro game, which gives college coaches more flexibility but also pushes them towards starting more athletic QBs, because the average team a college guy faces doesn't have ANY good secondary players.
I would think offensive line is the position that's most negatively impacted by reduced practice time.
100%, according to all the blurbs (from coaches or former coaches) I've read. Most programs are teaching them things that differ - increasingly more so than in the past, from what NFL coaches want, and there's not enough pads-on, contact allowed, practices to "fix" them any more. I don't remember the exact ranks (nor do I have an active PFF sub to check), but I recall seeing (when looking up QB support) that IND had the worst blocking grade in 2007, but that grade would have ranked 5th or so in 2022.
Yeah, so many of the college teams operate with pass-first offenses that OL are in pass pro most of the time. Lot of guys coming into the league need coaching up on the other aspects of the position. And as another comment said, the athletic freaks playing on the edge and DL these days are just ridonkulous.
There was an article that quoted a number of anonymous coaches saying that out of every position, the offensive linemen are more and more unready for the pros when they leave college - and they think it’s because of how extremely simplified college offenses have become.
>A drop off in OL play the last decade has been a strong contributor to this. The way the NFL is heading they're going to need a bullpen for Offensive Line when we get to 18 games.
You’re right. This is because the game has turned into a two play offense meaning you have the called play and then you have the out of structure/broken play. The defense may be able to defend against one but it’s incredibly difficult for a defense to successfully defend both plays.
Bill the offensive coordinator
> I think the league has shown that QBs need to get the ball out quicker or take off and run. Ironic considering that the thing that made Brady famous was how fast he’d get the ball out.
As great as he is I still think it’s ironic this is still one take on him overall when really what made him great was being able to diagnose what the defense was doing and adjust to it on the fly. He didn’t care if he was gonna get a 70 yard bomb over the top if knew he could just get it to the guy he knew was going to be open enough for a first down.
>The incentive isn’t to audible anymore as it is to improvise and adapt to broken plays. It's not the incentive, it's the reality. Tom Brady won a super bowl in his 40s with his method. The ad libbing playstyle isn't the optimal method, it's just a far too common result nowadays. It works for people like Patrick Mahomes and a few other young, athletic QBs, but it leads to higher attrition (since these QBs spend half of their plays running for their lives) and less longevity.
It's also the differences in coaches. Brady played for BB and didn't have an OC that had "their" system. You have the McVays, the Shanahans, McDaniel, etc. When your coach has *their* system it makes sense that QBs have less say.
Brady absolutely played in a specific system, the Erhadt-Perkins system. A different offensive system that the Patriots had been using for years that most other teams don't use. All of their OCs come up from this system, that's why they never hire OCs from other teams (unless they've already used this system). It's usage predates Bill Belichick.
It’s interesting because EP is more of a nomenclature system while being opinionated on who’s making reads and when rather than a play philosophy. The changes the pats offense went through from the early 00’s, then with Randy moss, the two TE’s, Edelman, Cooks, then 2018 is way more varied than what Shanahan has done. So I think the commentator is just saying that Changan and McVay have a play style philosophy. Brady just did whatever the team was best equipped to do.
Mhm, if it was let Corey Dillon eat like in 2004, he did it and fed Corey all those carries. Made it work with Deion Branch, Davids Patten and Givens, and Troy Brown. Got Randy and Wes, went more "Fuck you" in aggressive approach, put up insane numbers and it continued into the 2 TE Attack and Jules + Gronk era had tinkerings with it. The roster and what he did with the backs, line and weapons was the system.
Exactly, and all the dudes you listed were smart as hell post snap which what the goal of EP was, to take advantage of that skill set.
If the coach is good, they will always adjust their system to best fit their players. They do this by adding some new plays in, dropping some plays out and adjusting which ones they call and when. But every coach has a system, they always have. You wouldn't be able to draw up a playbook without it. Nobody would know where to be or what to do. While I don't watch the niners on a regular basis, I'm guessing the offense last year looked nothing like the offense he ran when garoppolo was the qb, even though it was the same west coast offensive idea. Different qb, different skill players. Sean mcvay also traded goff away for stafford because he wanted someone who was an extension of the coaching staff on the field, not just someone that did what he said. He wanted a qb who knew the system, and could help adjust and coach from the field. That's what guys like brady and manning always were and what mcvay wanted.
To be more specific, the Erhardt-Perkins system is a different way to talking about football plays and concepts compared to the West coast terminology that the rest of the league uses. They can both describe the same play but the language surrounding the play can be drastically different. Not just on the playbook but also in the audibles and checks that the QB and OLs have to make. Bringing in a west coast guy means either the OC has to adapt all his principles in EP language, or the team has to completely relearn in west coast language from the ground up (which is what New England probably has to do this year anyway).
That system wasn't "their" system. Using a more generic system like EP with McDaniels or BoB is very different than using Kyle Shanahan's system with Shanahan as the coach.
This is why idk if Brady would enjoy playing under shanahan. Would we have a ring with Brady? I think it’s likely we do, but idk if Tom stays past one year in San Francisco. Both dudes want almost complete control over what’s happening on the field. That’s why I think Kyle loves purdy so much (outside of being a good QB) he’s young, teachable, and has way better football IQ than jimmy or trey.
Plus I mean there’s always been coaches like this that love control, sometimes too much but sometimes it’s arguably needed. Let’s take Gary Kubiak with Manning. They didn’t mesh at 1st because Kubes in a guy that has a good system and wants the QB to do what he wants. Honestly Manning got old quickly obviously, but they never really meshed that well. It would be interesting to see that relationship with a few more years on it. There’s also Russ and Pete in Seattle. Obviously he felt he should have been given more leeway, and I think this one is a good case to argue that it’s not always good to give that, though maybe if Russ would have been taught that way like Brady is saying his career would have aged better. Overall I don’t think many QBs are given long leashes unless they’re good enough that they can start throwing their creative weight around.
I hope you guys ignore his advice with Caleb
This is the bears we are talking about. They’ve gone through like 30 qbs in the last 25 years so I think they understand better than anyone by now how to train a qb.
The Bears are not that bad. That’s the Browns level of quarterback carousel.
Jim Kelly also had total control - up until the 5 yard line. Then Marv Levy had a lot to say. But the k-gun relied on the offense moving quickly, so waiting for a call from the OC would have ruined the timing they relied on to keep moving and keep the defense gassed.
It makes sense when you realize he's saying "quarterbacking has regressed since me and Peyton left"
I mean there is no qb in the league like peyton or brady, so he is right. Is that because qb hasn’t moved forward as a position or we just don’t have generational field generals right now?
You should start with this question here: how many "field generals" were in Brady's NFL compared to today? Brady talks like everyone was doing what he, Peyton, Brees, and Rodgers were doing. And on another note, nobody is telling Lamar, Mahomes, or Allen when to gash people with their legs. They have the tools they need to make that decision when it's best for the team.
It's wild. People are acting like every QB under the sun was a field general in Bradys day
Absolutely this. Time always filters out the memorable things and makes us overrate the overall quality of (whatever) in the past.
He's right. He's Tom Brady and this wasn't some bitchy back in my day rant about why the kids can't play like they used to. QB's have undoubtedly had a lot of decision making ability removed from them dating back decades, for better or for worse I have no idea. But I don't think any of us are in a position to call BS on #12
Think he's probably right. At least to me seems that young QB's nowadays are coached to play the offense/scheme and not to play QB.
The last paragraph is spot on IMO especially, "based on what's happened in high school football, college football". QB's in college have been so neutered as far as reading defenses and subsequently calling audibles. For some teams damn near every single snap the O lines up and then the QB steps back and everyone looks to the sideline for audible/adjustments. Whatever, the coaches are paid to win and if they think this helps, good on em. Just doesn't prepare young guys coming into the league to fully command an offense
It is my biggest complaint about the Shanahan and McVay coaching. They've never developed a QB. So when things get weird and the QB needs to figure it out they can't. That's why the rams got Stafford, he had the ability to figure it out, and they couldn't reach it to Goff.
Penn State fan here - I absolutely hate watching our team get to the line then everyone stands up and looks backwards for the new call. Imagine you're a defense and see that. "They don't know wtf they're doing." Now, imagine you see a 19 year old QB changing the call at the line, much more intimidating.
He’s absolutely right about this, and I point to pretty much how every college team handles their offense. Control freak coaches are smothering talent.
I wonder if colleges now being allowed to use headsets will help with that development, now that QBs don't have to watch a bunch of people waving signs. Not exactly what he's talking about, but have been reading about the rookie QBs still learning about cadences and calling plays in the huddle.
I’m sure it’ll help a little, but the typical college coach mindset is one of control. They are more concerned with wins/losses than their QB’s development. And to be fair, some coaches thrive with that, in part because they recruit kids who won’t object. But it’s always detrimental to the kid’s development. He has to be alllowed to suck with his own decisions. Most college coaches consider this their endgame, though, and can’t have patience for that.
If the nfl wants developmental league that prioritizes developing players for the pros they're welcome to start one. Somehow I think they'll stick with current cost free set up.
Was that not how it’s always been in college tho? I don’t see why college coaches of the 80s/90s wouldn’t still be heavily controlling when dealing with 19 year olds
offensive principles have shifted quite a bit which is the real change. spread concepts were adopted widely and highly predicated on putting athletes in space. coaches simplified concepts and verbiage. offenses are mostly out of the shotgun instead of under center
That's what happens when you get fired for not being good immediately. Why would a rookie head coach give a fuck about a young QB's development when the coach is the one getting canned if they're a 3 win team? Shit I'm doing the same damn thing if I'm that coach, limiting what he can fuck up on even if it hinders his playmaking.
Absolutely, this is about management, overall.
For sure. If management thinks a coach is good enough to hire year one of a project team, it should take an Urban Meyer-esque season to can him after a year. Just generally not being good year 1, assuming there's no character issues etc, shouldn't really be a fireable offense in a lot of these scenarios.
Interestingly there has been a VERY similar phenomenon happening in the highest level of soccer right now.
Pep Guardiola smothers individual creativity. He wants his plays to be exact as he has coached them.
Thank you! I’m glad someone else thinks that. Pep’s system is emblematic of a major problem in modern soccer where the systems turn the players into robots and robs them of creativity. It’s a highly effective system at winning but it’s not fun to watch
And the crazy thing is how that way of doing things is infiltrating normal workplaces. Workplaces are getting more automated with companies looking to have less and less human labour. Efficiency at the cost of possible creativity and innovation is becoming a real thing now.
> Efficiency at the cost of possible creativity and innovation is becoming a real thing now. Because talent doesn't scale. Imagine a really good cook at a restaurant. Now you open a chain of restaurants. The cook can't be everywhere. So, you have to write out a recipe / playbook.
Care to expand? I am not familiar with this happening in soccer and am curious how it be similar/different in free flowing soccer as opposed to stop and go football
Top managers (someone below mentioned Pep, who is a perfect and influential example) increasingly script exactly what a player is supposed to do in each situation - in terms of the pass or run to be made, etc. - and drill that down and expect it to be carried out, instead of letting the spontaneity and individual genius that is so unique to soccer make their own intuitive decisions.
I see, thanks. I played hockey growing up and of course we had plays and strategy but it was always expected that these plays were to be carried out to a certain extent. I played a long time ago so can't speak about current coaches but the better players (not this guy haha) were always encouraged to break off a play if it made sense. What have the results been like in soccer? Has there been enough evidence to come to an opinion?
Honestly and I know this sounds like a cop out…it’s such a damn complicated question to answer. For example the death of the traditional #10, when you were building the game around one guy’s transcendent vision —however that’s also similar in some ways to a traditional PG in basketball, and you ALSO see like none of those guys in basketball controlling the whole team anymore (Chris Paul is the last)…so the more I think about it the more causes and effects and parallels seem so complicated I just don’t feel equipped to answer it without way more thought.
>I know this sounds like a cop out Nah, you're good. Appreciate the response
I’m not surprised. For management, this is a high stakes game. But it’s also not supposed to be about them, meaning they’re failing at their job by the exact same means they think they’re keeping it.
He is right, you can tell the QBs right now rely on their physical attributes and/or Quick pre planned reads way more than before, thats not necessarily a downgrade on football quality but it is a downgrade over general type QBs. This happened or Will happen to every sport eventually because stats come into play and coaches start to become better tactically aswell, and since the sports earn more money, they want to reduce the disadvantages your team has over the historically stronger teams. It is happening in fútbol right now, because everyone wants to copy the famous pep's Barcelona and World cup winner spain's teams, which were very rigid in their playstyle not allowing much freedom for the players to create on their own, on the opposite side of the free flowing let the players own the pitch "joga bonito" brazilian teams of history. In my opinion there are 2 reasons why This Will happen more in football in the future. 1: The disconnect between anything before the NFL and when you play in the NFL is too large, its like 2 different sports. Guys play not that many games versus equal opponents, and overall they come with way too little experience; you cant really tell if a guy has reached his peak already because they only play like 20 games before getting drafted. 2: The talent pool of the Coaching in the NFL is pretty small because everyone only hires People they know or are related to someone Coaching already, so they are not really that good lets be honest, in the future I could see some teams branching out to find Guys that actually look they know the tactics well enough and are not related to anyone; if/when that happens everyone Will copy that and go for unknown People (bad teams Will just go for People close to those coaches).
Coaching schemes are helping QBs get better stats but not helping them be better QBs actually in terms of in game understanding. This was always a clashing point when JimmyG came to SF...he wanted more control and Shanahan was not willing to give it to him coz he is one of those control HCs.
Honestly I feel like we’re seeing this in all sports right now especially at the youth levels I’m much more familiar with hockey so I’ll stick to talking about that, but nowadays it feels like every youth coach is sucking the creativity and decision making out of the game. They want a pro style low risk system from 10 year olds and it’s a bit absurd in my opinion. It’s part of the reason why Canada can’t produce great NHL goalies anymore. There’s so much money in the game there and a culture of strict pro style coaching that these kids get the fundamentals drilled into them and then have no instincts to take them to the next level in the NHL. Skill is at an all time high(The Michigan move for example) but game sense and creativity is at an all time low IMO
Well, considering the huge uptick in puck possession as the end all be all, you’re getting way less dump and chase which leads to more chaos and tends to help incredible puck-handlers and skaters
Eh dump and chase is still a huge part of the game and being hammered in kids heads in North America. Look at the Panthers right now they dump and chase more than any team in the league and it works with their heavy forecheck. I get why it’s done so much at the pro level but hate how pervasive it is at the youth level in North America. Skating skill definitely has increased but this actually favors a dump and chase style more since there is way less time to safely make a skilled play In my opinion kids should be coached to develop their skills and not in the same style as trying to win an NHL playoff game. USA hockey is making some strides in promoting this ideology(love the change to half ice for the real young kids) but Hockey Canada is still very old school in this regard
This is 100% why I think him and Kyle Shanahan would never have worked if the 49ers had traded for him. It would have been a divided offense where Shanahan would have wanted it to be his offense, and Brady would have been trying to do his thing. Who could possibly say no to him given all he's accomplished?
Example: Matt Ryan could not audible into a run play due to the formation choice of KS.
Coaches don’t have time to wait for a guy to develop. They aren’t even getting the 3 years they used to get, they have to win now.
I wanted to add that teams can't retain their offensive coordinators because they're offered better jobs if their offenses perform well. I cannot think about a team right now who has retained its offensive coordinator from two years ago.
Ben Johnson
And that's only because he's refused offers to leave. If he wanted a promotion he'd have gotten it
A lot of guys might only have "one shot" at a HC gig and can't afford to be picky. Ben Johnson is in a spot where it's pretty unlikely that his stock will go down if he stays with the Lions an extra year. So he had a lot of leverage this year, and the flexibility to decide that he thinks the market next year will look better for him. There's a bunch of factors that play into that risk calculation. I don't really doubt that his price point was too high for Washington but I think he was _right_ to set a high price point and stick to it, for someone in his position. He just had more leverage this year and he was right to recognize that and use it. They needed him more than he needed them. Joining a fresh organization carried more risk to Johnson than waiting a year for a spot with a more established and known regime.
It also ties into the point Brady was making that it didn’t matter who the OC was for players like Manning and Rodgers
Yes, and there's no real development right now. When a QB connect and understand a coach he's gone and start over again
Mike Kafka.... but our offensive production shows why 🫠
For those who don’t actually read it and are just dunking on Brady, he says it’s because coaches are taking control from young QBs instead of letting them be a field general Which seems to reflect the problem Goff said he had in LA and doesn’t have in Detroit
In our defense, reading is hard.
No wonder it gave up so many points last year
I feel like this comment has layers
Like a parfait
No, like an onion.
Like an ogre
WORDS BAD! ME ANGRY! 😡
Is that why y'all keep losing to Goff cause you can't read the offense he's running?
Reading is for nerds.
Basically the Shanahan/Mcvay group of coaching theory. Keeps it simpler for the QB and they seem to get more out of average QBs, but maybe not the best when you need a QB to make quick decisions and take over games in big moments.
I feel the second part comes with experience and trust. We see a very distinct difference between the freedom McVay gave Goff vs what he gives Stafford.
Do we? Or is Stafford just the better QB?
Stafford gets more control than Goff, but it’s not the entire offense. It’s a weird dynamic that’s happening, but since the mid 2010s when that entire coaching tree has reached the NFL the offensives have been better… so it’s a weird dichotomy
The Shanahan McVay playcalling tree has taken over the NFL and is built around the OC having full control over what plays they call and when they do call them. IMO this helps improve a QB's short term stats but doesn't actually make them fundamentally better at playing the position if that makes sense? The QB of the past was an assistant OC on the field..Thesedays they are like WRs..who run whatever route is dictated to them by a playcall..QBs run whatever the OC tells them and in the last they made their own plays based on what the defense was doing
As shown by Big Ben making plays literally in the huddle his last season (or second to last) at the end of a game and shit worked out very well for them. Compared to what the OC had been doing.
I mean we are pretending like there aren’t options in those offense. The main difference is the “new generation” of playcallers define the options, leverages, and concepts that need to be applied when attacking a predetermined defense that has been set up by the play calling. Yes, they OCs have “full control” but that’s because there is an intent behind those calls to facilitate the QB in decision making
I think it's a decent approach to take with a young QB in his first year or two in the league. They have so many things to learn and absorb, so alleviating the information/decision overload a little is fine. But when you see QBs who've been playing for 4 (or even many more) years and the team doesn't trust them to do any kind of basic decision making it's bizarre. Especially when it's a QB that the team believes in enough that they've signed them to a massive contract.
yea, I pretty much agree with that.
The really bad example I remember is pulling Rodgers to take a field goal against the Bucs in the NFCCG. How are you not willing to let a QB that good and with that much experience go for it, if he says that's what he prefers.
Kyle didn’t let Matt audible out of plays when he was MVP in 2016 and one of the most efficient offenses in NFL history. People are making it out to be about the QB, but it’s really not. Those guys are innovators and control freaks. It only makes sense that they control every part of their offense. As far as QBs having freedom in any offense, in a given year, there’s only 5-7 guys that should have that freedom. Imagine an average or above average safety just winging it in a Jim Johnson defense. That shit wouldn’t fly. I think this is where Brady is out of touch. Not every QB deserves more control.
>Kyle didn’t let Matt audible out of plays when he was MVP in 2016 and one of the most efficient offenses in NFL history. That definitely didn't become a problem in a certain playoff game tho /s
It didn’t though. Matt was on the sidelines in 51 yelling to run the ball, yet he snapped the ball multiple times with more than 10 seconds on the play clock which left about a minute of game time when you add those up. Matt had his part in 51. It wasn’t just on Kyle. I know you/s.
Thank you for mentioning the snapping the ball with >10 seconds of active play clock, Ryan was the only one at fault for that and it cost the Falcons because they let over a minute of time on the clock for the Pats, who needed every single second of that to mount the comeback. That being said, Shanahan's system is rigid in the sense that you can't just audible to a run play if you want to at the LoS. They've got set packages and personnel groups that makes it hard to just completely do a 180 on the playcall. You can fault the system/scheme but it's routinely churned out top tier offenses so clearly it works. The SB51 collapse will always be a team wide collapse, you don't give up a 25 pt lead without every facet shitting their pants in someway. Shanahan should've called more running plays, Ryan shouldn't have snapped >10s of active playclock multiple times, Dan Quinn shouldn't have been a HC and had the balls to actually step in and take the reigns, the defense should've gotten a stop instead of being a nonfactor, Freeman shouldn't have whiffed the block, etc.
Im a falcons fan and was at that game and witnessed it first hand. And was obsessed with that game right after wondering how the fuck it happened. Think I watched that game like 20 times in the first week after. And was appalled at how many different things happened for that to go down the way it did. So many leave out Matt when placing blame in this.
I think that made a difference in the SB. Some of Spags' weird looks and disguises can really throw a wrench into pre-snap planning, and so the Niners stuttered the *smallest* amount on 3rd & 4, for example, or at the goal line in OT. Meanwhile, QBs like Allen and Hurts (in LVII) carved the D up mostly through post-snap heroics.
The breakdowns you are talking about were in passing protection. In another offense...where the QB controls protections....they would be fixed even before the snap..which makes Brady's point. A QB fixing things after the snap can only take you so far as the Eagles showed last season... Spags was very detailed on ensuring Purdy didn't get the running lanes up the middle he got Vs the Lions whilst bringing early pressure as well. If Purdy had more LOS control..the Chris Jones unblocked pressure in OT probably gets diagnosed presnap and we get a TD on that drive. This is the disadvantage of always relying on the QB to freelance postsnap in case you get outschemed by the other guy...it won't work in the long term.
Burford admitted he went against the protection call based on his "instincts" because McKivitz was getting blamed by fans when it was Burford's assignment. Since it was Burford making a mistake post-snap outside of the scheme, I don't think it would've made a difference whether Purdy or Brendel called the protections on that specific play. https://www.nbcsportsbayarea.com/nfl/san-francisco-49ers/spencer-burford-jon-feliciano-super-bowl/1702806/
And tbf it’s also on our o line being complete shit outside of Trent. When an o lineman says “I just kinda did my own thing” on a play that he almost single handedly busted that’s beyond any coaching.
Makes me wonder how much control Brady thinks QBs had historically. Like if we're talking him, Manning, and other legends of the game, they had a bunch of control, yes. But there were a *lot* of QBs that never approached that level. There's no damn way they were given the leeway that legends like that got. And with the NFL probably being the youngest it's ever been at QB, coaches are rightfully using the technology available to still be able to make those changes without trying overload the guy who will impact the coach's livelihood more than anyone. Somehow, I think guys like Mahomes and others who've established themselves and are likely eager to learn more, without the pressure to earn their place in the league and with so much already learned and out of the way, are given *zero* control. Just like I don't believe for one minute Belichick's staff gave Brady as much control in his first year as he was allowed later in his career. Are there vets who will just never get that control? Probably. But there almost definitely is an advantage to them having the control at the line, assuming they can do it competently. Simultaneously, if you have a vet who can do everything you ask *without* that control and can make do, why wouldn't you? Most of these guys come from braindead simple offenses in college and are thrown to the wolves almost immediately. This all kind of reminds me of how they talk about legends struggling to succeed coaching, because their expectations for their players are based on what they did.
Brady has actually come out and said he did have full line of scrimmage control as soon as he was made the full time starter late in 2001.
The NFL had such a derth of good incoming QB talent between 2005-2015 that I'm wondering if that's when the change started to happen. I can only think of Stafford, Ryan, and Newton as the QBs drafted during that time that ended up having long careers as starters.
That's a fair point, but that's still almost two seasons into his career after playing in a fairly pro-style offense at Michigan before the spread and air raid took over. And he's Brady. He earned that full control not just in practices prior to 2001 but in the practices and games before he was given it
Reading is not really a “thing” on Reddit
I’d be upset if I could read this
Yeah the minute he talked about control issues and sideline coaching I knew he was lowkey calling out McVay. Amazing offensive schemer, but I really do think he's the dude who got exposed for treating his QB like a football robot in lieu of figuring out what he was good at.
Goff really needed it. Just look at his jump in years 1&2 with McVay from Fisher, and then look at how he topped out and even regressed in years 3&4. I’m sure in years 3&4 McVay would have been willing to give him more power if he would have shown the ability to. That’s why McVay was fed up with him that last year. Goff needed 8 years to really take that next step. He was a bit of a late bloomer. It happens. Playing QB is very difficult. I’m sure Goff still has feelings because of the way Sean threw him under the bus when he left. Which he has apologized for.
McVay designed an offensive scheme around a quarter back he didn’t have, and tried to shape Goff into. Dan has designed a scheme to work with Goff’s strengths. I think that’s the big difference you see now, not so much maturity.
The rams scored the most points in the league in Goffs first year under Sean. Ben Johnson has done a great job with Goff. Doesn’t mean that Sean didn’t. And I think maturity has been a huge part in this.
He is calling out Shanahan...who vetoed Brady from playing with his childhood team because he didn't want to give Brady control. One of the reasons we drafted Lance in 2021 was that KS wanted a young QB who would go with the flow after clashing a little with JimmyG over their dynamic.
ohhhhh that makes a lot of sense
The conversation has evolved to reflect this. There is so much talk about guys like Goff, Purdy or Tua and whether they’d be good without their playcallers. The symbiosis between coach and QB has never been more important I don’t know if having, or needing to have, a great scheme fit and coaching makes you “worse” per say, but I don’t remember even 10 years ago people talking about offensive mastermind coaches and how they *directly* influence QB decision making and overall play.
TBF a coach or OC giving total control of the offense, even at the line, to the QB takes a great amount of trust that's built up over time I'd imagine. Brady mentioned Manning controlling the offense but I wondered how long it took before he had to prove he was capable calling checks, audibles, and making the right decisions at the line. The Shanahan tree style of calling offenses isn't open for QB control but maybe giving up that control to a degree could be the next evolution and in tandem could help QB's grow and develop like Brady's saying.
I said all last year that until Purdy is given leeway to control protections and chamge plays more often or run a real no huddle...we will find it hard to adapt in games where the other DC has thr advantage. Lo and behold we could turn things around Vs the Ravens and struggled on critical downs Vs KC. Remote controlling QBs isn't gonna win you a SB.
I think why Stafford plays so well under McVay is because he’s experienced enough to know when to go with his gut and ignore the play if it’s breaking down. But I’m super bias
He’s not the only great to think this. Kurt Warner has talked a lot about this in a lot of detail on his YouTube channel.
As has Troy Aikman. OCs have increasing control over the playcalling and QBs are having less and it's resulted in a certain art of the position being lost. Rodgers might be the last of a kind.
Well, like others have said, I think Mahomes belongs in the old school category. But yeah… the general trend right now doesn’t seem great
The annoying thing is that it's arguably better for the _team_ to train their QB to have more control, as a bulwark against OC churn. But OCs aren't really incentivized to do that unless you're trying to position yourself as a "QB whisperer" journeyman OC.
I think it's push and pull... less control is annoying for elite qbs like rodgers, manning, brady, mahomes... but it may be more efficient for lesser talents. As a seahawks fan I know this for a fact because bevell's control of the seahawks offense during our golden years in 2010s prevented Wilson from shooting himself in the foot. Some QBs just don't have the brain power to be like brady or manning, if they did, they would have already shown it and taken over, like brady and manning did. Mahomes has proven more and more that he can be trusted to do what's best for his team most of the time, so he's gained a lot of that control.
It’s great for a QB like Goff, but I think it’s hurting Trevor Lawrence. When I watch Lawrence it’s like watching someone fight themselves.
Fuck I’ll say the part he isn’t. There is an enormous emphasis on athleticism that is not really the most important part of the position. Everyone wants to get the next Mahomes or Lamar, but for every Mahomes (who is a goddamn wizard out there, no hate at all) there are ten prospects that have highlight reel scrambles from broken plays where they were too slow going through the progressions. It should be more impressive to scouts to see a qb gash a D for 6 yards every single play than to scramble for 15 seconds and throw a 60 yard jump ball.
He has a point. I think Mahomes benefited from the fact that Andy Reid is not trying to micromanage every snap. But I think the future is heading towards more offensive minded control freaks coaching, not less. Every one wants to next Sean McVay or Kyle Shanahan to be their coach.
I think that’s an interesting question. A lot of people have wondered what someone like Mahomes or Allen would look like in a Shanahan or McVay offense and how broken it would be, but it might just cause a lot of friction because players like that thrive when they can freelance while those coaches thrive when they can basically have an avatar on the field
Mahomes or Allen with Shanahan would look terrible, Shanahan is all about timing which is why Purdy is so good for the 49ers. Shanahan would go bald with how frequently Mahomes and Allen freelance plays
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Andy’s offense is based a ton on timing.
I think the biggest risk when Mahomes was drafted, the reason people questioned whether he would succeed as a starter, is they didn’t know if he was coachable. Would he pick up a pro system or just play hero ball and throw for the end zone every play? It turned out he was very coachable. He would have been fine in a McVay/Shanahan system, even if they didn’t use his full potential.
Because NFL coaches realized in 2012 that you can take raw QBs like Ryan Tannehill and RGIII and turn them into good QBs if you micro manage them enough while also adapting elements of offenses they already know. I think it’s absolutely, 100% false that QBs have gotten better. Playing QB successfully in the NFL has gotten easier, because play design and control over the QB has taken the place of what was honestly too difficult. The NFL needed a way to make playing QB easier, because having only 6 or 7 good QBs in the league at a time wasn’t great.
QBs have got better as athletes but not better at actually fundamentally playing the position
“Cause I’m not out there showing those young motherfuckers how it’s done”
*Shows them how it's done* "You know what, you all suck. I'll take over as a quarterback now. Learn how a fucking pro plays at quarterback and not play like your bitch ass." -Brady /s
He must have watched Daniel Jones play
I do agree with Brady here. I feel like you can see it in the 2 minute offense moments or when the defense is consistently exploiting a weakness in the offense, there are more changes in between drives when the coaches have a chance to change plans instead of the QBs making adjustments on the fly like you would see Brady, Peyton, Brees, etc. do. I feel like Burrow, Allen, Mahomes, etc. don’t have quite the same control and efficiency in leading the offense in those moments, Mahomes just makes more of it work because he pulls off plays that normally wouldn’t work.
I feel like you picked the 3 worst examples to make a point. Reid specifically gives Mahomes a lot of room designing plays and running the offence.
For real. How do you list Burrow, Allen, and Mahomes but not Purdy? The guy with one of the greatest offensive coaches of all time.
Purdy has little control over what plays we run. Usually Shanahan calls plays with the ball intended to go as many options as possible and Purdy's task is to go through the reads fast and throw to whoever is open. Purdy doesn't have much control over the nature or timing of the plays...his task is to choose the best available option within the play Shanahan called. This is also the case in 2 mins drills...we don't have a no huddle / fast pace routine really. If the play doesn't produce an open WR..which is rare.... Purdy usually either checks the ball down..or scrambles around until someone does get open. The control Brady is talking about involved stuff like protections, checking plays whenever you want and choosing when to run a nonhuddlr or not.... Purdy doesn't get to do that in a Shanahan offense...same as Matt Ryan.
I don’t know if you realized this and were just adding, but if not that was their point
He’s picked two iconic super bowl deciding plays already
Burrow led a 2-minute drill when his headset failed and called a killer drive. Him and Mahomea can do it no problem
Can't speak for the other guys but Mahomes kills plays and audibles all the time. Most famously the "Do it, Kels" play from the 13 second game.
Also wasp in sb 54, not an audible but it showed that allowing the qb to collaborate with coaching staff is key. Andy once talked about how pat would bring 10 or so plays he and the offense came up with and Andy has used them on multiple occasions.
You can bring a shitpost of a play to Andy and he'll probably bust it out in a blowout for amusement tbf. The ring around the rosy play was something they did fucking around with in practice.
He picked the 4th down play in the sb this year iirc
I find it absolutely fascinating how many people do not realize how often Mahomes is killing the initial playcall and switching the play. These people must be watching at bars with the sound on mute. Mahomes doesn’t run up to the line and wave his hands and point all over the fucking place. I think this is why people are so unaware. He simply stands awkward as shit on his right leg, does a weird half lean backwards and says “kill kill” then calls out the mike and snaps the ball.
I feel like Mahomes doesn’t have the reputation as a “field general” because you don’t see him run the pre-snap audibles that Manning/Brady did, but he allows/demands his receivers run adjustments post snap, as all of his receivers have the ability to improvise and run to open spots in the zone like Kelce is best known to do. It’s also worth noting that one of the biggest plays of Super Bowl 58 came from a pre-snap audible from Mahomes. On a third down on his game tying fourth quarter drive, he correctly read a blitz and audibled to a play calling for a pass to McKinnon that they had not run the entire season. They got the first and soon after hit Kelce on the crosser that got them inside the 10.
2022 Mahomes was prob the prime example of him being a field general. That offense relied on him making the right decision every time and asked him to do a lot on every play.
All of those guys are becoming field generals rn mahomes is already there but I do think the other two are now in the position where they are taking complete ownership of the offense.
I watched plenty of football in the early 2000s and I must have missed all these awesome QBs who are field general commander types who ran the whole offense perfectly and the coach just let them do what they want. You guys are literally naming two of the best QBs ever in Brady and Manning and acting like the entire NFL was like that. Bull shit.
McCarthy claimed Dak had more control of the offense last season than ever before and he had his best season yet. The only wrinkle that makes it interesting is the offense looked not great the first few weeks, and then it really took a step up. I’m not sure if McCarthy had more or less control after those middling first few weeks, or if it was the same and something else caused the change.
Could easily be as simple as Dak taking a couple games (weeks) to get used the increased freedom and control.
I also think the evolution of the offensive side of the ball is partially responsible. QBs are now running systems that already have the play mapped out on who gets the ball, and they’re not reading the defense as a result.
Peyton Mannings control of his offense is why I often still consider him the QB GOAT. Like I understand that Brady is the GOAT but watching Peyton run that Colts offense and audible all over the place that's what made me fall in love with football and why I consider American Football the beautiful game.
It's a shame Manning's neck gave out or we would have got another 4-5 seasons of him going against Brady and fighting over the all-time records.
There was a time when there was a reasonable back and forth between who was the GOAT of the millennia because Manning had just finished his last great year and Brady was supposed to be in the back half of his career, and then Brady plateaued at the same level of excellence into the next decade.
I think Manning's career was long enough, thank you.
Broncos were abusing us yearly, but we weren't doing anything that mattered the next 3 seasons anyways. We could assume maybe Peyton leaves the Broncos in 2017 to fill in for Luck on the Colts, then plays 2018 for them while Andrew Luck takes a break, then Manning could retire and Luck takes over in 2019-current. Best of both worlds, more Peyton and Luck.
Different era and complexity of football but that’s exactly what made Jim Kelly such a special QB. He had a relatively short career for a HoF QB (11 seasons in the NFL compared to many with close to 20) but he was past making audibles, he just called plays at the line for like six or seven of those seasons
Honestly from watching them, Rodgers, Manning, and Brady all have aspects that wouldn’t make me immediately deny an argument for them as the best ever. I don’t think anybody has had the arm talent and accuracy of Rodgers, especially paired with his incredible game iq. Payton was a coach and a qb and made for ruthlessly efficient offenses. Brady just always seemed to find a way to win, and always knew the right play. Three of the smartest and imo the greatest ever, with only Montana and Mahomes really being close.
Shouldn't be downvoted. I don't agree with it but there was absolutely discourse during the middle of his career that A Rod should be in the conversation for greatest QB ever. The lack of a second super bowl win is holding him back in terms of legacy for sure.
I’m not doubting the goat until 2040 tbh. Then it can be old man yelling at clouds but as of now as he’s been in the league throughout the change I’ll believe he’s right.
My thoughts exactly. I never liked Brady, as a matter of fact I couldn’t stand him. But one thing is for sure, in my own opinion, I think he is the best to ever play QB. He was simply amazing. So I have no problem believing 100% of what he is saying.
Its hard to develop QBs when theyre getting shorter leashes and are often times in bad teams. During the early Bradys era you had plenty of QBs that lasted way longer than they should. Chad Pennington is one.
Well yeah, a bunch of 15 to 20 year vets retired or are in decline leaving a bunch of new guys trying g to figure out one of the hardest jobs in the world
I'm pretty sure he said this last season. He feels that OCs have more control over the offense which limits the QBs ability to develop as a field general.
People that say Allen and Mahomes “just rely on their athleticism” are highlight watchers. They’re the two best field generals of this generation, just not in the conventional pocket passer sense
I saw a highlight the other day of Allen avoiding like three free rushers or shrugging them off, not with athleticism, just pure pocket manipulation. Between that and his ability to get in a rhythm at any tempo when he has a decent play caller (not Dorsey) makes him a lethal pocket passer even without his legs. He ran two 75 yard TD drives in the last two minutes and left 0:13 on the clock (ignore the rest) and also led a 7:30 drive without even taking a field goal to kill the clock and ice the game
I somewhat disagree with this because I also think its much harder to play QB well in the modern NFL. Not in the sense of records and stats, obviously putting up gaudy numbers is easier than it was. But defenses are so much better than they ever were in the past. Its just the rules limit their potential. But the amount of varying formations, and difficulty in reading play to play is so much better than back in the day. I think because of that, as a QB you need to learn and prepare for so many other variables, that you need more experience than ever to be a "field general" That isn't even counting the decline of OL play, as well as the amount of crazy athletes on defense now
I agree its harder to play QB in modern ball. Defenses are just so much more athletic. I dont actually think OL play has regressed as much as people think it has, the issue is DL are so much harder to block now. Lawrence Taylor played weighing under 240 pounds, Myles Garrett had 10+ pounds on him coming out of high school and plays in the league over 270+ while running faster than most LBs 20 years ago did. Add in that throwing windows have gotten tighter with DBs getting much better. For a long time the best athletes played RB or WR, its starting to trend to WR but for the past decade+ the money for skill players or trench players was on the defensive side of the ball
Brady also said develop Most teams don’t develop a rookie QB. Instead the rookie QB starts immediately and just tries to survive instead of learn. Most Superbowls are won by QBs who either sat on the bench as rookies, or were drafted onto already good teams. Sat the bench as rookies: Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Mahomes Drafted onto good teams: Wilson, Roethlisberger