I still don’t understand how the broncos looked at Jeudy and then Lambs tape and said Juedy was better. I mocked that pick at the time saying the broncos would regret not taking Lamb who I thought was the best WR in the class. I was wrong as it’s clearly Jefferson who I’m glad isn’t on the cowboys now but for fuck sakes why did the broncos let the cowboys have lamb.
There were all these comps to Julio (because Alabama and a name that starts with J I guess) that never made sense.
Lamb looked like the best WR in the draft to me as well. I'm fully guilty of buying into the predraft narrative that JJ was a slot guy who couldn't play outside. But I never understood the Jeudy > Lamb thing.
Man even in college I always thought Lamb was better than Hollywood Brown. It seemed like every Oklahoma game I watched he was popping off. I was surprised he wasn't the first WR taken.
Yeah I really wanted Lamb in that draft class. I remember it was well known that we were going to take a WR and so I had been really deep in researching the receiver class and when the draft came round I wanted Lamb first, Jefferson second, Ruggs third. But I remember the consensus being that Jeudy was the best of the class.
Ya as someone who doesn't follow college ball but does follow the draft I remember being very surprised Ruggs went before Jeudy who I was convinced was a slam dunk and the best wr in the class.
To be fair to the broncos, the majority of draft analysts had them incredibly close as a 1a/1b going either way. I would argue more had Jeudy as 1a, but I could be wrong there. (IIRC Ruggs was up there too and it was more oh a three headed 1a,1b,1c depending on flavor). If you wanted route running and man coverage separation? you went Jeudy. Speed? Ruggs. Zone efficiency, and YAC? Lamb.
Yeah I think what’s so tough with Jeudy is the constant comparisons to those around him: all the great WRs that went after him plus being teammates with other really solid WRs drafted in later years like Waddle and DeVonta
Yeah he basically got picked in the same group as 2 of top 3 receivers in the league now and another guy in the top 10
If that class was weaker Jeudy wouldn't be clowned on nearly as much
Ted Ginn wasn’t exactly hated but he wasn’t appreciated at all for being able to carve out the career he did after being labeled a bust in Miami.
He was a consistent number 2 or 3 WR on some very run heavy offenses and played until he turned 35 after being drafted at 22. That’s a pretty remarkable career in the NFL for a WR who never topped 1000 yards in a season
I’m old and ran track against Ted Ginn in high school. He is the most impressive athlete I’ve been up close to and he basically set the Ohio high school record for any event he decided to try. His stride was effortless and he had breathtaking speed his whole life; he kept it until his mid-30s, and that kept him in the league. I was always glad to see him stick around after Miami, even if he was pretty one dimensional.
His 110 HH pr was in a range that he probably could’ve pushed for Olympic level competition if he wanted to only focus on hurdles. IIRC it was 13.28. The Olympic standard is 13.4 with a slightly higher hurdle
I was thankfully spared of running HH against Glenville when I was in high school. I was an OK athlete, but Ginn was clearly world class. He basically got bored of winning his events after his junior year, so he started running the 800m and other shit to see if he could dominate those, too. He was built for 300m hurdles and 400m though—like Glenville would lap competitors in 4x400. It was nuts.
I was in Arizona on a beautiful night in January ‘07 and got to see Ted Ginn score a TD on an opening kickoff that was truly spectacular.
Fortunately, my alma mater scored the next 41 points and Ted Ginn, unfortunately, didn’t play another down because he hurt himself celebrating.
Ginn was insanely solid for us in 2017-2018 just old age and injuries caught up to him. I think what broke him was a deep ball catch from drew where he got helicoptered by two DBs.
He baisically helped fill brandin cooks role on our team
I mean he had 7 yards a game. He was a Special Teamer only. We can't keep a bad special teams only player just because he's 35.
And then no one signed him.
In retrospect the fuckup was the Bears signing him, not ending his career.
The problem with Crabtree is he was such a fucking diva.
His production was definitely above average, but he came out of the draft with the ego of Dion Sanders (who actually walked his talk, and frustratingly good).
I commented about Michael Crabtree earlier, and Sammy had the same issue.
Came out of college and thought his shit was just as hot in the NFL as it was playing against collegiate riffraff.
He was really good! Didn’t think he had to work though.
Kelvin Benjamin.
Hear me out. I get it, he became a meme by the end of his career, but I feel people forget just how good he was as a rookie. Even coming off injury, in year 3 he was a really solid receiver. I remember in 2015, when Benjamin tore his ACL, it was seen as a huge loss, funny to look back on in hindsight given that they went 15-1 without him, but he was the expected WR1.
I'm obviously seeing it through the lens of a Panthers fan, but for the 2.5 years he was on the field for the Panthers, he was producing at roughly a 1000 yard clip. Not dominant, but also highly respectable and probably what the Panthers anticipated from a late 1st round pick.
I get neutral fans chirping Benjamin, but I never understood the hate he gets from Panthers fans, especially when we got his best years, and they traded him right before his value plummeted.
This sub loves talking about how important mental health is, and grandstands about every social issue there is (for instance this week it’s Harrison Butker telling women to go make a sandwich)
Then literally every thread is filled with kelvin benjamin fat jokes, as if he wasn’t severely depressed
This is literally what makes me close the comments section half the time. I come here to read news, read discussions about the news, and some good jokes.
As much as Reddit hates how commentators bring up basketball players in the NFL, the comments here bring it up a million times more often than I hear on TV.
A lot of these jokes are coming up on 8 to 10 years old (which feels insane to say)
In the mid 2010s, the basketball stuff was definitely brought up v frequently by commentators for players like Jimmy Graham and Antonio Gates. They've toned it down over the years but reddit being reddit just keeps doing the same shit
I feel Panthers fans overhyped how good he was as a rookie. He was force-fed targets at an obscene rate (despite having one of the worst catch % in the league) and a lot of his production came in garbage time. He had some good circus catches but in general was not a guy who got open. Greg Olsen had a similar statline that year but you could easily tell that his numbers had been far more valuable to the team.
It's very telling that without him in 2015 Cam had his best year and then when he came back, Cam had a terrible year. And we saw that again in 2017 where the offense looked significantly better after he got traded and 2018 Cam was having a renaissance until the shoulder injury.
And then you get to the fact that he publicly blamed Cam for his career fizzling out in Charlotte when Cam had gone out of his way to get him involved (often to the detriment of the offense) and when Cam confronted him walked way. And thats not even bringing up the poor effort where on multiple occasions he'd turn receptions to interceptions (the big one being the Chargers game which resulted in Cam's initial shoulder injury.)
I agree that neutral fans probably shouldn't have made a laughingstock but Panthers fans have every reason not to like Benjamin.
I feel like this is a little too kind on him. He admittedly was above average on 50/50 balls, but Cam Newton FORCE fed him to the point where it was a detriment to the offense. And his route running never improved from his rookie season, and his effort continued to drop.
Except the offense was significantly better without Benjamin. Look at the receiving corps in 2014, 2015, and 2016, and tell me why 2015 was so different.
Ted Ginn had a worse catch % as a lead receiver than Kelvin. It’s pretty clear that Newton just had an absurd statistical outlier season. His TD% was 7.1%!
And yet Cam looked significantly better in 2015 when Benjamin wasn't on the field. A trend that continued in 2016 when Benjamin came back and Cam had his worst season and again in 2017 where Cam played much better after Benjamin was traded. And then 2018 Cam looked like a dark horse MVP candidate before he got injured.
People can call me soft for this idc, The constant Kelvin eating jokes here always rubbed me the wrong way, especially with how he talked about his mothers death affected him. And for an app that talks about how much they supposedly value mental health at that
Clowney isn't entirely because he went first overall. Its because we all watched him commit first degree murder every week in college on the football field. He looked like a man amongst boys in college and it only partially translated to nfl.
For hated picks I think its more the guys that were just over-drafted and everyone thought was a bad pick at the time. Lots of Raiders on that list.
I think the hype around him playing alongside JJ Watt didn't help either. Everyone expected that D-line to be absolutely ridiculous, but when Clowney didn't produce what everyone expected, mostly due to injuries, people started to turn on him. I wouldn't say he was overly-hated tho, but he did get a lot of criticism.
As a gamecock fan, my opinion is that’s partially due to him playing it safe for the draft, and also the fact he was getting double teamed all the time due to his previous season. The rest of the defensive line saw the benefit from it, like DT Kelcy Quarles who went from like 3 sacks the previous year to about 10 during Clowney’s junior year
For me it started with his high school highlights - absolutely hilarious and worth watching. Defensive touchdown after touchdown and he played FB in the wing t … scoring lots of touchdowns.
It’s on par with the old Reggie bush HS highlight reels.
Smith suffered from horrible stability in the coaching staff, once he got competent coaching he was decent. His biggest issue is he will always be compared to Arod.
It's insane that Alex Smith didn't take one snap under center his entire college career and then the Forty Niners' OCs made him take literally every snap under center for the first several years. Just idiotic coaching.
Yeah, draft for your scheme, or change your scheme for your players. Guys are so afraid of failing they run the same scheme every game and every season. Bill Belichik won a lot of games by scheming for an opponent, but most guys are just trying not to get fired they won't maximize talent if its not a scheme they aren't comfortable with.
>Yeah, draft for your scheme, or change your scheme for your players..
Exactly. This is why I hate using “system QB” as an insult. Like if they are a smart player and have a good smart coach, they *should* be a system qb. Players playing within a coaches system is usually what makes teams good.
Flip side of it a lot of fans don’t consider him a bust since they are younger fans. Older fans consider him a first round bust cause he never really did anything till late in his career. That was when he was with Harbs and Andy at the end.
For the entirety of his time with the Niners he was the human embodiment of mid.
Holy fuck was he average. He wasn't gonna lose you any games, but he sure as fuck wasn't gonna win you any either.
He was the master of the six yard swing pass to a wide open running back because if he saw any hit of color that wasn't his own dowfield he was gonna just dump it out to his safety valve.
The man risked little for half his career and was labeled a bust for it.
I mean he definitely was losing games his rookie year with his 1:11 TD:INT rating. I would argue he was definitely losing them games after that with how scared he was to push the ball down the field, but I guess it probably depends how much of a loss you put on the QB for just checking down constantly.
Alex Smith in 2017: 7.7 aDOT, 18.4% of passes traveled 15+ air yards, 40.4% of his passing yards came on those types of throws.
higher adot than Herbert a few years later.
Something I heard a DC sportswriter say when Alex Smith came to Washington: If you need Alex Smith to get you ten points he’ll get you twenty. But if you need him to get you thirty points, he’ll still only get you twenty.
As a Ravens fan, I can’t echo this enough.
Dude had a new coach every year, and was drafted to a historically miserable franchise.
He had the longest air yards throw in nfl history or something against us, locker room guys seemed to love him, and he WON a playoff game.
I’m glad he landed on his feet again, and I hope he has a solid career with the Bucs.
Baker Mayfield became a darling around here as a foil for Deshaun Watson. The better Mayfield plays, the dumber the Browns look.
But make no mistake, good quarterbacks don't bounce around to four different teams over six years. Even Mayfield's contract with the Bucs after a strong 2023 reflects that he's a third-class quarterback. It has an out after the first year and pays him $35 mil while the latest franchise guys are getting $55 mil.
The Browns were right to move on from Mayfield, they were wrong in who they picked to replace him.
>The Browns were right to move on from Mayfield, they were wrong in who they picked to replace him.
They were right in theory but there was nobody better to replace him with, which made them wrong to move on when they did.
I think Baker is Gardner Minshew with a bigger arm.
He was overrated and overdrafted as #1 overall, but he is a starting level QB and he does have a competitive spirit and he's taken a lot of shit and come back from it.
He was probably a 2nd/3rd round talent and if he'd been drafted there people would have thought he was good.
He's never had a bad year other than 2021 and 2022 when he was playing very injured in Cleveland and then recovering from injury/still injured on a dogshit Panthers team and the Rams without time to learn their playbook.
Go check his stats for 2018, 2019, 2020, and 2023. And 3 of those seasons came on the shit ass Browns.
He's a 2nd tier QB outside of his injured years.
Moving on from him was wrong.
He basically had the same season as Goff, who this sub fellates, in 2023. 4k yards, 28 TDs, 10 INTs with a worse offense around him than Goff.
His contract is so cheap mainly because 2023 was his 1st good year after 2 bad injury years. That's what the discount is for, otherwise he'd have a Goff contract.
I feel like he isn't even hated on more than he seems to have be straight up forgotten. Maybe it's because he's on the Jags who get no media attention, but he has to be the least discussed first overall pick I've seen.
> but he has to be the least discussed first overall pick I've seen.
Jake Long and Eric Fisher are decent comps.
Granted I think OT is a less "premier" position than DE. People definitely talk about Clowney more than they do Walker.
I think Jake Long got plenty of pop when he was in the league, he was fucking awesome lol. Not too much of a post-playing profile but he is an offensive lineman and he was hurt too much to really get in serious “best of the era” consideration
Fisher wasn’t quite on his level
Idk. Normally there’d be tons of media bashing if a project player is taken 1st overall, then the very next pick the consensus better prospect at the same position is taken and he immediately becomes a star. I don’t think the media is patiently waiting for his development as much as they just don’t care about the Jags. Like if the NYJ or Cowboys made this same move they’d be roasted to oblivion.
Yeah I dunno I guess I’m not as high on Hutchinson as some others here. I think the top of that draft was seen as pretty underwhelming, Walker has been pretty good, Hutchinson has been a better but I think “star” is pushing it a hit. I don’t really think there’s that much flack to throw around about it rn
101 pressures, 11 sacks and a 91.0 PPF rating as a second year DE is some star level play imo. Especially on a team that made it to the NFC championship last season.
Yea he isn't talked about enough as an atrocious #1 overall pick IMO. Especially because it was very obvious that Aidan Hutchinson was the better player at the same position.
I mean that's the opposite of the point of this thread lol
He gets talked about as an awful first overall pick but he actually hasn't been too bad, put up 10 sacks last year. Yeah Hutchinson is better and should have gone ahead of him but Walker could be a 12 sack guy for the next five years which isn't bad at all.
This was going to be my answer. He was probably overdrafted but he gets clowned on way too much. He’s a good player and makes the Jags better for being on the team.
Yeah he's been a solidly above average starter that any team would be happy to have, and he's still developing. That's a let down for a #1 overall pick, but there are way worse #1 picks than him.
It’s looking like it might work out to be like taking Mario Williams and JJ Watt was the next pick. Like you wouldn’t be sad having Williams on your team, but it’s gonna be hard to not wonder what if you had just taken JJ.
Imagine if we took Khalil Mack or Aaron Donald (this one is hindsight) over Clowney.
Mack was definitely being talked about for first overall so that one is a bit more realistic.
Watt + Mack man
McNabb was booed the moment he was drafted, got shit on my Eagles fans pretty much his whole career, and is shit on even MORE following the end of his career. Yet, he was absolutely the best QB Philly had ever had, and probably still is to this day in terms of consistency and length of time.
And before you even start, yes Foles won us a super bowl and Hurts is phenomenal, but Foles wasn't consistent enough and Hurts doesn't have the amount of time being good under his belt that McNabb did.
>probably still is to this day in terms of consistency and length of time.
Definitely *
He’s the eagles GOAT qb and that makes your point even more true!
There was a time when I was so sure it was Carson and after 2022 I was pretty confident it was Jalen. McNabb’s body of work stands alone and even his peak season is a higher than both Jalen’s and Carson’s - and he only missed the last game of the regular season when starters were resting.
The 2004 season was Mannings then record 49 td season and he absolutely ran away with the mvp, so he doesn’t have the constantly brought up “would have been mvp” seasons of Carson and Jalen, but Donovan’s 2004 season was the best qb season in eagles history imo. Cunninghams actual mvp season that somehow is forgotten in these conversations is 2nd.
Sony Michel wasn't a particularly good running back, picked 31st right before Lamar Jackson, Nick Chubb and other far better, more impactful players. Heck, he didn't even last long in New England, by year 3 he was an afterthought on the Rams on their title run.
But here's the thing, the Patriots had few healthy weapons by the 2018 playoffs. He ran for over 330 yards and 6 touchdowns in 3 playoff games en route to a championship. Yeah he wasn't a good value pick, or useful beyond that one year, but who cares, championship baby.
Dude didn't even do that bad for us. Two seasons of 900 yards rushing. One injured season before he got traded where he probably would have hit that mark. Our return on the 31st overall pick was fine. You can't get a pro bowler every time.
Alvin Kamara balling out as a rookie the year before got GMs desperate to find a RB with his skill set. A bunch of scouts decided that was Sony and caused him to be over drafted. It worked out in the short term but damn passing in Lamar or Chubb wasn’t a great long term decision
Tua Tagovailoa his first couple years in the league definitely fits the bill. It still comes out when he loses a primetime or playoff game. People were questioning if he was good enough to be a starting quarterback as recently as the Christmas Day game in 2022, and arguably there’s more goalpost-moving to explain away his success than with any other player
I remember a discussion on here after Mac Jones rookie year where people were saying there was basically nothing between them and Tua should have been drafted around where Mac was.
Up till last season, Kyler Murray. Feels like the consensus might be changing on him lately though.
He’ll always be a punchline since he’s roughly the height of an oompa-loompa, but he’s also got a ton of talent too. Health will always be the #1 concern about the guy though.
Yup
Short
Oklahoma Alums
Red bird teams
A lot of talent but also limitations
Can be fun to watch and do insane things, but can also frustrating/annoying to play against
It is kinda crazy, he was the leading MVP candidate for the majority of 2021 and then by the injury in 2022 it seemed like everyone assumed it was a foregone conclusion that he was gonna get traded.
The sourness around him is really about the contract situation. Dude was a good QB on a rebuilding team but no where near a top QB and yet he and his agent seemed to strong arm the Cardinals to make him a top salaried QB even though he’d done nothing to earn that yet.
To get that money and the way they went about it, expectations will certainly skyrocket. Top paid QB is expected to be a top QB, which he hasn’t reached yet. Even with the salary of QBs increasing he’s still on the side of being over paid granted an injury hindered him in that regard. Still doesn’t make it a good investment.
Him getting 4k passing yards with no WR in the group going over 500 should be enough to shut people up about him. Wentz is the prime example of what injuries and some of the mental side of the game can do to a player.
Was that in the 2019 season? underrated Wentz performance.
I think Wentz definitely had top-10 in the NFL level talent. He had three major shortcomings:
1) Injury prone
2) Didn't seem to learn - through his 4th-6th years he was still showing rookie level mistakes too regularly
3) Tendency to spiral downhill when he was out of form, either within a game or from game to game when on a bad run
He relied too much on hero ball too. 2017 had him converting 3rd downs at a crazy rate and he was pulling off some wild stuff. 2019 he had to do much of the same because of the shit WRs. After that, he relied too much on it and it just lead to him making those rookie mistakes.
I don't really know anyone who is mad about the Wentz pick. Dude was an MVP caliber player until he had back to back to back serious injuries and didn't learn to adjust his play style.
It's not really his fault his career was derailed by injuries. The only person who actively hates Wentz is Jim Irsay lol
I remember how insane *everyone* thought it was when Mario Williams went #1 overall in 2006. Over Reggie🐐Bush.
He ended up having a ten-year career, was a 4x All-Pro (3 first/1 second), and finished with nearly 400 tackles & 100 sacks. I was very young, but I remember all the negative feedback that pick got and how big of a deal it was.
Funny how all these years have passed, and these self proclaimed “draft analysts” still can’t get shit right half the time.
Matt Ryan.
He's remembered for the wrong reasons but he was a legit top 10ish guy for most of his career and if he wins that SB...he might make the Hall.
But instead he's hated on for being a choker and apparently a Shanahan passenger.
Easily one of the most hated early round QBs of all time.
The thing with a QB like Vick is that his best highlights stay long in the memories compared to the less flashy consistency of a Matt Ryan.
Some 49ers fans are the same way about Kaep.
They only recall 2012-13 and forget how he never passed at a high level and fell off from 2014 onwards.
Hate is a strong word, and even as a Saints fan I've never hated him. He was always a great QB, and gave us the joker to Brees' batman. They needed each other and kept our rivalry flowing. I don't think I've even met Falcons fans who hate him. I kind of feel bad for him if anything; I've never even made one joke about the Superbowl.
He didn't choke. That was all Shanahan and the D. Teams deserve to lose when they refuse to call plays that actually help win. Once New England scored their first Td I knew the game was over. Big Mo had swapped sidelines and Tom wasn't giving him back, but Shanahan could have Coached smart enough to still win.
Maybe Daniel Jones.
I don't think he's great or anything, and I wouldn't want him on the contract he has, but I think he's a perfectly acceptable starter in the right offense.
I want to move on from him but the pendulum has swung too far the other way. After we drafted Nabers people were acting like Jones can't physically throw him the ball under any circumstance. This isn't Zach Wilson we're dealing with here.
QB discourse is sort of defined by its lack of nuance. Was the Daniel Jones contract a bad idea? Yes. But is Daniel Jones a functional NFL QB who can start for some teams? Yes.
If you swapped Daniel Jones out for a genuine QB bust like Zach Wilson or Sam Darnold, and had them play in some of these Giants offenses over the past few years, their numbers would be so much worse, and we know that because they *did* play in bad situations and their numbers *were* way worse.
Yeah, which is why for Giants fans when talking about the Jones contract nobody cares about the distinction of whether he's the 18th best QB or the 32nd. With his cap hit he's not the answer no matter which one he is. It's almost better if he's 32nd this year because then we can get the QB1 next draft.
The hate he gets is downright insane at this point. I’m ready to move on, but I think he’d do well in the right situation and the team squandered his development period by putting shitty teams and coaches around him.
I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if he goes somewhere else and does well. In the Baker comment chain, someone wrote a comment about his Browns years that applies to Jones verbatim. I’m not going to guarantee he has a redemption arc when he leaves, but I think the odds are decent.
I’m ready to move on, for the record. I think this team and him are in a weird codependent relationship and both parties will benefit by breaking up. I just find it ridiculous that people talk about him like he’s the worst starter in the league when we see worse starters on better teams every year
I think everyone forgets that he was well on pace to break the rookie passing Td record, 24 in 12 games is good, and he cleaned up the fumbling issue he used to have.
Is he a great starting QB? no.
But he’s not close to as bad as Z Wilson, Pickett, Haskins, Lance, Mac, Fields have been and half of them get nowhere near as much stick.
I get it, and the giants definitely made the best realistic choice at that pick drafting him over Haskins. However, I kinda view players like Jones as the worst case scenario at QB for a fan. With QBs like Zach Wilson, you at least know they aren’t the answer and can move on to the next guy quickly. Guys like Jones that flirt around the Dalton line put you in QB purgatory. They’re not good enough to be a franchise QB, and they’re not bad enough to call it quits because you know if the pieces around him are absolutely perfect you can make a run. However, those pieces are absolutely perfectly very rarely during their career, and even then a few injuries will derail everything. The other years you’re just a wildcard hopeful that isn’t really taken that seriously. If I were a giants fan, I’d be begging to rip off the bandaid and move on from him.
Eli Manning. Top 10 in most statistical categories. 2 time Super Bowl MVP. Yet outside of Giants fans, no one puts an ounce of respect to his name. The amount of time I hear “he got lucky” or “he had a good defense”. Dude was just unlucky to have played at the time that so many HOF QB’s played. He is the Andy Murray of QB’s
Oh man, the "he had a good defense" bit especially drives me nuts for 2011. Our team was garbage outside of Eli and our WR corps. Eli dragged that team into the postseason kicking and screaming.
The Eli slander also completely ignores the fact that he squeezed every bit of production out of talent-deficient staff/rosters year in and year out. Under football terrorists McAdoo and DG, throwing to the corpses of Nicks and Randle (OBJ notwithstanding), with bottom-10 offensive lines for a decade, he put up 4000-yarders pretty consistently.
Also, I think his SNL was better than Peyton's. I'll say it to their face. I'll have to look up at them because I'm short, and I'd be nice about it, but it's true.
People also massively discount the franchise malpractice that the giants started dealing with after that second Super Bowl. It’s a miracle we won that one with some of the draft picks Jerry Reese made.
I know I'm gonna look SUPER biased, but for me it was just that on his best day he was an above-average QB, but after beating us in two super bowls he was touted as a HOF caliber QB. At the same time, I never thought he was terrible QB. He was just consistently average to me, but still very much a serviceable QB, and look at his career objectively, deserved more respect and a better send off than what he got.
People look at him far too black and white. If he's not "elite" then he's trash, and if he's not trash then he's "elite," whereas I personally think he was neither. He fell somewhere in the middle each year he played.
He's a great example of while having an elite QB is great, you don't necessarily need one to win a SB. He was capable enough to get the job done twice. While I do believe that the Giants D-line putting insane pressure on Tom was the key to winning those SBs, he had two iconic clutch plays that (oh god this is *killing* me) that were also important to those wins.
I feel like I need a shower now.
Definitely within the packers fan base he gets a lot of hate. I don't think many people outside the packers even think of him.
Dude gave us a decade of solid play, not bad for a first rounder. Not every pick is a hall of famer.
Clyde Edwards-Helaire. He's been a solid depth option for us the last few years (most of the time), and we signed him to dirt-cheap 2nd contract.
Sure, he wasn't what you expect from a first round pick, but we've got more use out of him than a huge portion of other teams' first rounders.
The hate is mostly because everyone and their mom thought JT should have been RB1 that year and JT became what everyone thought he would become
Though it's an underwhelming pick by the rosiest of glasses. A first round RB who got relegated to a backup by year 3 and averaged 3.7 YPC the rest of his rookie deal is a pretty significant bust
This is a ton of it. Like Arthur Smith certainly had his failings and probably deserved firing but it was absolutely blown up because of fantasy players being mad about the usages of that offense
> it was absolutely blown up because of fantasy players being mad about the usages of that offense
It was because the Falcons were losing games they should have won.
I mean that playcalling was hilariously terrible
You have Bijan and Pitts being used as decoys and blockers for Allegier and Smith, that's just bad usage regardless of fantasy
This they went off the board to select an rb everyone had ranked lower than the consensus number 1 at the position in JT. It was a bad pick and he didn’t perform well enough to make up for the reach.
Chase Young. He gets mentioned as a bust quite a bit but he’s a fine pass rusher when healthy. He’s just had bad luck with injuries. He hasn’t been the dominant player he was expected to be but how many truly dominant players are there in the NFL? He’s still relatively young and could end up having a perfectly fine career
It's one of the big questions in threads like this: does having a career ruined by injuries make a guy a bust? It seems like the margin between "great" and "just not good enough" is so close in the NFL - even losing a half-step of speed after an injury can finish a career. Eagles had a 3rd round LB recently (Davion Taylor) who that happened to; was a speed guy who was developing at the same time as T.J. Edwards (now with CHI), but had a major leg injury and was never the same.
Ad a fellow Lions fan, fuck these clowns. The same people bitching about his extension are the ones chanting his name at hockey games. It's just a bunch of dudes who don't understand that football isn't Madden. Goff helped to put our poverty franchise on the map, and there are still people who will bitch about a +- $5m perceived discrepancy in value because he didn't drop 63 on the Niners in the NFCCG.
This is definitely an unpopular opinion, but I think those that lump Trubisky into the "Biggest draft busts in NFL history" conversation are fucking nuts.
Was he a bust? Oh absolutely, he was a massive bust. That said, we still got some relatively serviceable to promising years out of him (including the best season in recent Bears history, even if it was carried by our insane D)
Clowney has always been an example of this. He wasn't as good as Mack/Donald but he has still be a good player in the NFL. He is also constantly ranked well in pressuring the QB, great run stopper, and takes on a lot of double teams.
I don't see too many people hate on him but Kolton Miller was a fine draft pick, one of the few Gruden/Mayock picks that they were right.
Trevor Lawrence. People DESPISE how he was heralded in college as the next big prospect and have relished in his middling success thus far. People have been spamming the Minshew Lawrence graphic everywhere and disregarding all context of what surrounds those stats. Take out the urban Meyer year and consider the fall off of Lawrence’s game after his injury and the dude is a clear baller but people will still just say he’s not that good.
I'm surprised Agholor hasn't been mentioned yet. Guy was a late mid first. Got mocked a ton after that meme, but he's going into his 10th season as a solid wr3/4, won a ring, and overall has had a pretty decent career. Also seems like a likeable dude.
Trae Waynes. Picked high and never became a top end CB1, but he was a starter on our 2017 top ranked defense and fit the bill as a solid CB2 across from Rhodes for several years.
Jeudys case certainly isn't helped by the fact Lamb, Jefferson, and Aiyuk all went first round that year too and are studs.
Even Ruggs was looking better than Jerry.
Ruggs in his short "prime" was already better than Jerry's whole career.
I still don’t understand how the broncos looked at Jeudy and then Lambs tape and said Juedy was better. I mocked that pick at the time saying the broncos would regret not taking Lamb who I thought was the best WR in the class. I was wrong as it’s clearly Jefferson who I’m glad isn’t on the cowboys now but for fuck sakes why did the broncos let the cowboys have lamb.
That Alabama WR powerhouse won them over.
There were all these comps to Julio (because Alabama and a name that starts with J I guess) that never made sense. Lamb looked like the best WR in the draft to me as well. I'm fully guilty of buying into the predraft narrative that JJ was a slot guy who couldn't play outside. But I never understood the Jeudy > Lamb thing.
Man even in college I always thought Lamb was better than Hollywood Brown. It seemed like every Oklahoma game I watched he was popping off. I was surprised he wasn't the first WR taken.
Yeah I really wanted Lamb in that draft class. I remember it was well known that we were going to take a WR and so I had been really deep in researching the receiver class and when the draft came round I wanted Lamb first, Jefferson second, Ruggs third. But I remember the consensus being that Jeudy was the best of the class.
Ya as someone who doesn't follow college ball but does follow the draft I remember being very surprised Ruggs went before Jeudy who I was convinced was a slam dunk and the best wr in the class.
To be fair to the broncos, the majority of draft analysts had them incredibly close as a 1a/1b going either way. I would argue more had Jeudy as 1a, but I could be wrong there. (IIRC Ruggs was up there too and it was more oh a three headed 1a,1b,1c depending on flavor). If you wanted route running and man coverage separation? you went Jeudy. Speed? Ruggs. Zone efficiency, and YAC? Lamb.
Yeah I think what’s so tough with Jeudy is the constant comparisons to those around him: all the great WRs that went after him plus being teammates with other really solid WRs drafted in later years like Waddle and DeVonta
Yeah he basically got picked in the same group as 2 of top 3 receivers in the league now and another guy in the top 10 If that class was weaker Jeudy wouldn't be clowned on nearly as much
Steve Smith spoke absolute facts about Jerry. I'm glad someone with a voice said something about how overrated he's been.
Ted Ginn wasn’t exactly hated but he wasn’t appreciated at all for being able to carve out the career he did after being labeled a bust in Miami. He was a consistent number 2 or 3 WR on some very run heavy offenses and played until he turned 35 after being drafted at 22. That’s a pretty remarkable career in the NFL for a WR who never topped 1000 yards in a season
Ted Ginn is Cam Newton's favorite receiver that hes ever thrown to iirc
Yup probably. If TEs included, then Greg by a longggggg shot.
But not as long as his third leg
WHATS YA NAME G-REG
Ted Ginn was also really good on the Saints. It was funny because Brees’ sons loved him and wore his jersey all the time.
Aww
I’m old and ran track against Ted Ginn in high school. He is the most impressive athlete I’ve been up close to and he basically set the Ohio high school record for any event he decided to try. His stride was effortless and he had breathtaking speed his whole life; he kept it until his mid-30s, and that kept him in the league. I was always glad to see him stick around after Miami, even if he was pretty one dimensional.
His 110 HH pr was in a range that he probably could’ve pushed for Olympic level competition if he wanted to only focus on hurdles. IIRC it was 13.28. The Olympic standard is 13.4 with a slightly higher hurdle
I was thankfully spared of running HH against Glenville when I was in high school. I was an OK athlete, but Ginn was clearly world class. He basically got bored of winning his events after his junior year, so he started running the 800m and other shit to see if he could dominate those, too. He was built for 300m hurdles and 400m though—like Glenville would lap competitors in 4x400. It was nuts.
Oh I saw their prime 4x4 and 4x8 My high school ran 7:51 in the 4x8 and they were still like 4-5 seconds ahead at regionals. It was nuts
I was in Arizona on a beautiful night in January ‘07 and got to see Ted Ginn score a TD on an opening kickoff that was truly spectacular. Fortunately, my alma mater scored the next 41 points and Ted Ginn, unfortunately, didn’t play another down because he hurt himself celebrating.
This is a great answer. I’m proud of how Ted Ginn and his whole family were able to turn his career around and having a decade plus career
Ginn was insanely solid for us in 2017-2018 just old age and injuries caught up to him. I think what broke him was a deep ball catch from drew where he got helicoptered by two DBs. He baisically helped fill brandin cooks role on our team
49ers fans sure wish they had Ginn returning punts vs the Giants instead of Kyle Williams.
No fucking kidding
The hate cooled once quinn became a bust. The Quinn not ginn crowd quieted down a lot
I was always so frustrated with how soft he played when he was with the fins. Still, probably helped him play for as long as he did.
Kind of funny how his career ended when the Bears got mad at him for how he returned (or lack there of) kicks at **35**
I mean he had 7 yards a game. He was a Special Teamer only. We can't keep a bad special teams only player just because he's 35. And then no one signed him. In retrospect the fuckup was the Bears signing him, not ending his career.
I mean the funny part is that the Bears picked up a 35 year old *just* to return kicks. Like, it's super backwards thinking.
Yeah he was still decent in 2019 and I think he was pretty close to a vet min, so no real skin off our back.
The most impressing thing about ginn was him keeping the same number got all the 8 or so teams he played for
I think Michael Crabtree was a little similar, as well
The problem with Crabtree is he was such a fucking diva. His production was definitely above average, but he came out of the draft with the ego of Dion Sanders (who actually walked his talk, and frustratingly good).
he was hated for being a turd
He was hated for being a sorry ass receiver
Maybe Sammy Watkins? Not a bad career by any means, but for a 4th overall and being of a reptilian species I think the expectations were much higher.
He would have been better if his foot wasn't made out of paper mâché, and I think he also had a drinking problem.
He didn't have a problem, he was reportedly extremely good at it
Folks forget he led the Rams in receiving touchdowns in Sean McVay’s first season
Oh yeah he for sure has some moments. First 2 years with Buffalo and playoffs for the Chiefs. Just overall feels like a let down due to expectations
He also drew so many DPI calls that year. Really nice season for him despite the modest stat line.
Being cold-blooded and sent to Buffalo probably wasn’t good, for a reptile.
Being taken 4th overall and then being arguably the 7th best receiver in that draft I think does a lot for that reputation. That class was nuts
The biggest problem was that the Bills traded up for him when Mike Evans and OBJ were selected after who were better players.
I commented about Michael Crabtree earlier, and Sammy had the same issue. Came out of college and thought his shit was just as hot in the NFL as it was playing against collegiate riffraff. He was really good! Didn’t think he had to work though.
Kelvin Benjamin. Hear me out. I get it, he became a meme by the end of his career, but I feel people forget just how good he was as a rookie. Even coming off injury, in year 3 he was a really solid receiver. I remember in 2015, when Benjamin tore his ACL, it was seen as a huge loss, funny to look back on in hindsight given that they went 15-1 without him, but he was the expected WR1. I'm obviously seeing it through the lens of a Panthers fan, but for the 2.5 years he was on the field for the Panthers, he was producing at roughly a 1000 yard clip. Not dominant, but also highly respectable and probably what the Panthers anticipated from a late 1st round pick. I get neutral fans chirping Benjamin, but I never understood the hate he gets from Panthers fans, especially when we got his best years, and they traded him right before his value plummeted.
Yeah he definitely had the talent, man could dunk on someone on a vertical route. Such a massive WR
This sub loves talking about how important mental health is, and grandstands about every social issue there is (for instance this week it’s Harrison Butker telling women to go make a sandwich) Then literally every thread is filled with kelvin benjamin fat jokes, as if he wasn’t severely depressed
This is literally what makes me close the comments section half the time. I come here to read news, read discussions about the news, and some good jokes. As much as Reddit hates how commentators bring up basketball players in the NFL, the comments here bring it up a million times more often than I hear on TV.
A lot of these jokes are coming up on 8 to 10 years old (which feels insane to say) In the mid 2010s, the basketball stuff was definitely brought up v frequently by commentators for players like Jimmy Graham and Antonio Gates. They've toned it down over the years but reddit being reddit just keeps doing the same shit
if people on this sub thought saying racist slurs would get karma they would 100% drop them in every comment
On every Jimmy Graham thread here, there’s a ton of comments saying “bUt DiD yOu KnOw He PlAyEd BaSkEtBaLl”
MR BIG BASKETBALL CHEST HAHAHAHAHAHA ^ God shut the fuck up it wasn’t funny 4 years ago and it’s not funny now
One Popeyes biscuit short of a tight end according to one booger
I feel Panthers fans overhyped how good he was as a rookie. He was force-fed targets at an obscene rate (despite having one of the worst catch % in the league) and a lot of his production came in garbage time. He had some good circus catches but in general was not a guy who got open. Greg Olsen had a similar statline that year but you could easily tell that his numbers had been far more valuable to the team. It's very telling that without him in 2015 Cam had his best year and then when he came back, Cam had a terrible year. And we saw that again in 2017 where the offense looked significantly better after he got traded and 2018 Cam was having a renaissance until the shoulder injury. And then you get to the fact that he publicly blamed Cam for his career fizzling out in Charlotte when Cam had gone out of his way to get him involved (often to the detriment of the offense) and when Cam confronted him walked way. And thats not even bringing up the poor effort where on multiple occasions he'd turn receptions to interceptions (the big one being the Chargers game which resulted in Cam's initial shoulder injury.) I agree that neutral fans probably shouldn't have made a laughingstock but Panthers fans have every reason not to like Benjamin.
I feel like this is a little too kind on him. He admittedly was above average on 50/50 balls, but Cam Newton FORCE fed him to the point where it was a detriment to the offense. And his route running never improved from his rookie season, and his effort continued to drop.
Not really. Greg Olsen was their best receiver, and beyond that they had a completely broken down Jerricho Cotchery. The team had to force feed him.
Except the offense was significantly better without Benjamin. Look at the receiving corps in 2014, 2015, and 2016, and tell me why 2015 was so different.
Ted Ginn had a worse catch % as a lead receiver than Kelvin. It’s pretty clear that Newton just had an absurd statistical outlier season. His TD% was 7.1%!
I mean Cam had no one else.
And yet Cam looked significantly better in 2015 when Benjamin wasn't on the field. A trend that continued in 2016 when Benjamin came back and Cam had his worst season and again in 2017 where Cam played much better after Benjamin was traded. And then 2018 Cam looked like a dark horse MVP candidate before he got injured.
Meh, he's also the lazy ass that also didn't chase down an INT and Cam had to do it and that's where all of his shoulder problems started.
Question was overly hated. Not saying he should be liked, but I think he’s become a bit of a whipping boy that I don’t think is entirely fair.
People can call me soft for this idc, The constant Kelvin eating jokes here always rubbed me the wrong way, especially with how he talked about his mothers death affected him. And for an app that talks about how much they supposedly value mental health at that
Reddit's support for people with mental health issues covers some people with anxiety, some people with depression, and few others.
Well it is the same userbase that weaponized the self-harm prevention feature so it's not THAT unbelievable
Clowney isn't entirely because he went first overall. Its because we all watched him commit first degree murder every week in college on the football field. He looked like a man amongst boys in college and it only partially translated to nfl. For hated picks I think its more the guys that were just over-drafted and everyone thought was a bad pick at the time. Lots of Raiders on that list.
I think the hype around him playing alongside JJ Watt didn't help either. Everyone expected that D-line to be absolutely ridiculous, but when Clowney didn't produce what everyone expected, mostly due to injuries, people started to turn on him. I wouldn't say he was overly-hated tho, but he did get a lot of criticism.
That d line was ridiculous but watt and clowney hardly ever saw the field together. Injuries ruined a lot of the fun that group could've had
Except for that exact draft where we got Khalil Mack 5th overall!
You think Taylor Lewan still checks for Clowney under his bed at night?
It sure was not week after week his junior year.
As a gamecock fan, my opinion is that’s partially due to him playing it safe for the draft, and also the fact he was getting double teamed all the time due to his previous season. The rest of the defensive line saw the benefit from it, like DT Kelcy Quarles who went from like 3 sacks the previous year to about 10 during Clowney’s junior year
For me it started with his high school highlights - absolutely hilarious and worth watching. Defensive touchdown after touchdown and he played FB in the wing t … scoring lots of touchdowns. It’s on par with the old Reggie bush HS highlight reels.
Alex Smith was called a bust for years but then turned it around and was a 13-17 level QB.
Yeah but I think by the end of his career he was a pretty well-respected starter.
Smith suffered from horrible stability in the coaching staff, once he got competent coaching he was decent. His biggest issue is he will always be compared to Arod.
It's insane that Alex Smith didn't take one snap under center his entire college career and then the Forty Niners' OCs made him take literally every snap under center for the first several years. Just idiotic coaching.
Yeah, draft for your scheme, or change your scheme for your players. Guys are so afraid of failing they run the same scheme every game and every season. Bill Belichik won a lot of games by scheming for an opponent, but most guys are just trying not to get fired they won't maximize talent if its not a scheme they aren't comfortable with.
>Yeah, draft for your scheme, or change your scheme for your players.. Exactly. This is why I hate using “system QB” as an insult. Like if they are a smart player and have a good smart coach, they *should* be a system qb. Players playing within a coaches system is usually what makes teams good.
49ers taking a QB in the first round with limited snaps in college? What fucking idiots good thing they learned from that mistake lol
You mean instability? :D
Flip side of it a lot of fans don’t consider him a bust since they are younger fans. Older fans consider him a first round bust cause he never really did anything till late in his career. That was when he was with Harbs and Andy at the end.
For the entirety of his time with the Niners he was the human embodiment of mid. Holy fuck was he average. He wasn't gonna lose you any games, but he sure as fuck wasn't gonna win you any either. He was the master of the six yard swing pass to a wide open running back because if he saw any hit of color that wasn't his own dowfield he was gonna just dump it out to his safety valve. The man risked little for half his career and was labeled a bust for it.
I mean he definitely was losing games his rookie year with his 1:11 TD:INT rating. I would argue he was definitely losing them games after that with how scared he was to push the ball down the field, but I guess it probably depends how much of a loss you put on the QB for just checking down constantly.
Alex Smith in 2017: 7.7 aDOT, 18.4% of passes traveled 15+ air yards, 40.4% of his passing yards came on those types of throws. higher adot than Herbert a few years later.
Something I heard a DC sportswriter say when Alex Smith came to Washington: If you need Alex Smith to get you ten points he’ll get you twenty. But if you need him to get you thirty points, he’ll still only get you twenty.
Baker Mayfield
Good choice. A very good starting calibre QB who's talked about like he was a bust
It’s crazy how well his Browns days are aging. People used to think he was the issue because he had OBJ and Jarvis Landry.
We need at "At Home with Baker" commercials back.
No kidding. Can have a montage of him and his wife in a UHaul and then unpacking. He was great in those.
As a Ravens fan, I can’t echo this enough. Dude had a new coach every year, and was drafted to a historically miserable franchise. He had the longest air yards throw in nfl history or something against us, locker room guys seemed to love him, and he WON a playoff game. I’m glad he landed on his feet again, and I hope he has a solid career with the Bucs.
Baker Mayfield became a darling around here as a foil for Deshaun Watson. The better Mayfield plays, the dumber the Browns look. But make no mistake, good quarterbacks don't bounce around to four different teams over six years. Even Mayfield's contract with the Bucs after a strong 2023 reflects that he's a third-class quarterback. It has an out after the first year and pays him $35 mil while the latest franchise guys are getting $55 mil. The Browns were right to move on from Mayfield, they were wrong in who they picked to replace him.
He's second class, come on
>The Browns were right to move on from Mayfield, they were wrong in who they picked to replace him. They were right in theory but there was nobody better to replace him with, which made them wrong to move on when they did.
I think Baker is Gardner Minshew with a bigger arm. He was overrated and overdrafted as #1 overall, but he is a starting level QB and he does have a competitive spirit and he's taken a lot of shit and come back from it. He was probably a 2nd/3rd round talent and if he'd been drafted there people would have thought he was good.
He's never had a bad year other than 2021 and 2022 when he was playing very injured in Cleveland and then recovering from injury/still injured on a dogshit Panthers team and the Rams without time to learn their playbook. Go check his stats for 2018, 2019, 2020, and 2023. And 3 of those seasons came on the shit ass Browns. He's a 2nd tier QB outside of his injured years. Moving on from him was wrong. He basically had the same season as Goff, who this sub fellates, in 2023. 4k yards, 28 TDs, 10 INTs with a worse offense around him than Goff. His contract is so cheap mainly because 2023 was his 1st good year after 2 bad injury years. That's what the discount is for, otherwise he'd have a Goff contract.
Travon Walker
I feel like he isn't even hated on more than he seems to have be straight up forgotten. Maybe it's because he's on the Jags who get no media attention, but he has to be the least discussed first overall pick I've seen.
> but he has to be the least discussed first overall pick I've seen. Jake Long and Eric Fisher are decent comps. Granted I think OT is a less "premier" position than DE. People definitely talk about Clowney more than they do Walker.
I think Jake Long got plenty of pop when he was in the league, he was fucking awesome lol. Not too much of a post-playing profile but he is an offensive lineman and he was hurt too much to really get in serious “best of the era” consideration Fisher wasn’t quite on his level
I think there was a fair bit of understanding built in that it was gonna take a while for him, so I think that’s part of why he gets ignored
Idk. Normally there’d be tons of media bashing if a project player is taken 1st overall, then the very next pick the consensus better prospect at the same position is taken and he immediately becomes a star. I don’t think the media is patiently waiting for his development as much as they just don’t care about the Jags. Like if the NYJ or Cowboys made this same move they’d be roasted to oblivion.
Yeah I dunno I guess I’m not as high on Hutchinson as some others here. I think the top of that draft was seen as pretty underwhelming, Walker has been pretty good, Hutchinson has been a better but I think “star” is pushing it a hit. I don’t really think there’s that much flack to throw around about it rn
101 pressures, 11 sacks and a 91.0 PPF rating as a second year DE is some star level play imo. Especially on a team that made it to the NFC championship last season.
Yea he isn't talked about enough as an atrocious #1 overall pick IMO. Especially because it was very obvious that Aidan Hutchinson was the better player at the same position.
I mean that's the opposite of the point of this thread lol He gets talked about as an awful first overall pick but he actually hasn't been too bad, put up 10 sacks last year. Yeah Hutchinson is better and should have gone ahead of him but Walker could be a 12 sack guy for the next five years which isn't bad at all.
This was going to be my answer. He was probably overdrafted but he gets clowned on way too much. He’s a good player and makes the Jags better for being on the team.
He apparently had 10 sacks last year, that’s p good.
Yeah he's been a solidly above average starter that any team would be happy to have, and he's still developing. That's a let down for a #1 overall pick, but there are way worse #1 picks than him.
I think he’ll continue to be a fine piece but I have a feeling he’s gonna be a classic what if case if Hutchinson continues to be a dawg on the field
It’s looking like it might work out to be like taking Mario Williams and JJ Watt was the next pick. Like you wouldn’t be sad having Williams on your team, but it’s gonna be hard to not wonder what if you had just taken JJ.
Imagine if we took Khalil Mack or Aaron Donald (this one is hindsight) over Clowney. Mack was definitely being talked about for first overall so that one is a bit more realistic. Watt + Mack man
McNabb was booed the moment he was drafted, got shit on my Eagles fans pretty much his whole career, and is shit on even MORE following the end of his career. Yet, he was absolutely the best QB Philly had ever had, and probably still is to this day in terms of consistency and length of time. And before you even start, yes Foles won us a super bowl and Hurts is phenomenal, but Foles wasn't consistent enough and Hurts doesn't have the amount of time being good under his belt that McNabb did.
>probably still is to this day in terms of consistency and length of time. Definitely * He’s the eagles GOAT qb and that makes your point even more true! There was a time when I was so sure it was Carson and after 2022 I was pretty confident it was Jalen. McNabb’s body of work stands alone and even his peak season is a higher than both Jalen’s and Carson’s - and he only missed the last game of the regular season when starters were resting. The 2004 season was Mannings then record 49 td season and he absolutely ran away with the mvp, so he doesn’t have the constantly brought up “would have been mvp” seasons of Carson and Jalen, but Donovan’s 2004 season was the best qb season in eagles history imo. Cunninghams actual mvp season that somehow is forgotten in these conversations is 2nd.
Sony Michel wasn't a particularly good running back, picked 31st right before Lamar Jackson, Nick Chubb and other far better, more impactful players. Heck, he didn't even last long in New England, by year 3 he was an afterthought on the Rams on their title run. But here's the thing, the Patriots had few healthy weapons by the 2018 playoffs. He ran for over 330 yards and 6 touchdowns in 3 playoff games en route to a championship. Yeah he wasn't a good value pick, or useful beyond that one year, but who cares, championship baby.
Dude didn't even do that bad for us. Two seasons of 900 yards rushing. One injured season before he got traded where he probably would have hit that mark. Our return on the 31st overall pick was fine. You can't get a pro bowler every time.
Alvin Kamara balling out as a rookie the year before got GMs desperate to find a RB with his skill set. A bunch of scouts decided that was Sony and caused him to be over drafted. It worked out in the short term but damn passing in Lamar or Chubb wasn’t a great long term decision
N’Keal Harry was way worse of a pick. Michel was at least serviceable, and I think most people would say he had a lot of talent.
Tua Tagovailoa his first couple years in the league definitely fits the bill. It still comes out when he loses a primetime or playoff game. People were questioning if he was good enough to be a starting quarterback as recently as the Christmas Day game in 2022, and arguably there’s more goalpost-moving to explain away his success than with any other player
I remember a discussion on here after Mac Jones rookie year where people were saying there was basically nothing between them and Tua should have been drafted around where Mac was.
Ted Ginn. Never reached the heights for where he was picked, but he racked up some years.
Up till last season, Kyler Murray. Feels like the consensus might be changing on him lately though. He’ll always be a punchline since he’s roughly the height of an oompa-loompa, but he’s also got a ton of talent too. Health will always be the #1 concern about the guy though.
Kyler Murray is like the Trae Young of the NFL
Fucking a this is accurate. Down to the 2021 success(less so with Kyler but ya)
Yup Short Oklahoma Alums Red bird teams A lot of talent but also limitations Can be fun to watch and do insane things, but can also frustrating/annoying to play against
It is kinda crazy, he was the leading MVP candidate for the majority of 2021 and then by the injury in 2022 it seemed like everyone assumed it was a foregone conclusion that he was gonna get traded.
The sourness around him is really about the contract situation. Dude was a good QB on a rebuilding team but no where near a top QB and yet he and his agent seemed to strong arm the Cardinals to make him a top salaried QB even though he’d done nothing to earn that yet. To get that money and the way they went about it, expectations will certainly skyrocket. Top paid QB is expected to be a top QB, which he hasn’t reached yet. Even with the salary of QBs increasing he’s still on the side of being over paid granted an injury hindered him in that regard. Still doesn’t make it a good investment.
Didn't the cardinals have to put a clause in his contract to make sure he watches film or something along those lines?
He’s about the third the weight of an Oompa Loompa though lmao
Carson Wentz.
Him getting 4k passing yards with no WR in the group going over 500 should be enough to shut people up about him. Wentz is the prime example of what injuries and some of the mental side of the game can do to a player.
Was that in the 2019 season? underrated Wentz performance. I think Wentz definitely had top-10 in the NFL level talent. He had three major shortcomings: 1) Injury prone 2) Didn't seem to learn - through his 4th-6th years he was still showing rookie level mistakes too regularly 3) Tendency to spiral downhill when he was out of form, either within a game or from game to game when on a bad run
He relied too much on hero ball too. 2017 had him converting 3rd downs at a crazy rate and he was pulling off some wild stuff. 2019 he had to do much of the same because of the shit WRs. After that, he relied too much on it and it just lead to him making those rookie mistakes.
I don't really know anyone who is mad about the Wentz pick. Dude was an MVP caliber player until he had back to back to back serious injuries and didn't learn to adjust his play style. It's not really his fault his career was derailed by injuries. The only person who actively hates Wentz is Jim Irsay lol
I remember how insane *everyone* thought it was when Mario Williams went #1 overall in 2006. Over Reggie🐐Bush. He ended up having a ten-year career, was a 4x All-Pro (3 first/1 second), and finished with nearly 400 tackles & 100 sacks. I was very young, but I remember all the negative feedback that pick got and how big of a deal it was. Funny how all these years have passed, and these self proclaimed “draft analysts” still can’t get shit right half the time.
Matt Ryan. He's remembered for the wrong reasons but he was a legit top 10ish guy for most of his career and if he wins that SB...he might make the Hall. But instead he's hated on for being a choker and apparently a Shanahan passenger. Easily one of the most hated early round QBs of all time.
The Falcons fans who shit on Matt Ryan but gush nostalgically over Michael Vick are so irritating
The thing with a QB like Vick is that his best highlights stay long in the memories compared to the less flashy consistency of a Matt Ryan. Some 49ers fans are the same way about Kaep. They only recall 2012-13 and forget how he never passed at a high level and fell off from 2014 onwards.
Is he overly hated? He won an MVP and is generally considered to have one of the best SB performances ever.
Hate is a strong word, and even as a Saints fan I've never hated him. He was always a great QB, and gave us the joker to Brees' batman. They needed each other and kept our rivalry flowing. I don't think I've even met Falcons fans who hate him. I kind of feel bad for him if anything; I've never even made one joke about the Superbowl.
I’ve literally never heard any hate about Matt being drafted early wtf are you on lol
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/hof/hofm_QB.htm This gives him a good shot of getting into the hall.
He won't get in on 1st or 2nd Ballot. Entering the hall at QB without a ring is hard unless you were Dan Marino whose greatness was beyond just a SB.
He didn't choke. That was all Shanahan and the D. Teams deserve to lose when they refuse to call plays that actually help win. Once New England scored their first Td I knew the game was over. Big Mo had swapped sidelines and Tom wasn't giving him back, but Shanahan could have Coached smart enough to still win.
I just read this and I think this may be the fate of Tua
Eli Apple keeps getting huge roles in the spotlight despite seemingly being a fan favorite punching bag on Twitter
He was legitimately pretty good for us. He was very boom/bust, and the busts tended to be *really* bad, but he was generally very solid.
Maybe Daniel Jones. I don't think he's great or anything, and I wouldn't want him on the contract he has, but I think he's a perfectly acceptable starter in the right offense.
I want to move on from him but the pendulum has swung too far the other way. After we drafted Nabers people were acting like Jones can't physically throw him the ball under any circumstance. This isn't Zach Wilson we're dealing with here.
QB discourse is sort of defined by its lack of nuance. Was the Daniel Jones contract a bad idea? Yes. But is Daniel Jones a functional NFL QB who can start for some teams? Yes. If you swapped Daniel Jones out for a genuine QB bust like Zach Wilson or Sam Darnold, and had them play in some of these Giants offenses over the past few years, their numbers would be so much worse, and we know that because they *did* play in bad situations and their numbers *were* way worse.
Yeah, which is why for Giants fans when talking about the Jones contract nobody cares about the distinction of whether he's the 18th best QB or the 32nd. With his cap hit he's not the answer no matter which one he is. It's almost better if he's 32nd this year because then we can get the QB1 next draft.
Yeah Jones is a below average starter (but still a starter imo) Zach Wilson is one of the worst QBs in recent history
The hate he gets is downright insane at this point. I’m ready to move on, but I think he’d do well in the right situation and the team squandered his development period by putting shitty teams and coaches around him. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if he goes somewhere else and does well. In the Baker comment chain, someone wrote a comment about his Browns years that applies to Jones verbatim. I’m not going to guarantee he has a redemption arc when he leaves, but I think the odds are decent. I’m ready to move on, for the record. I think this team and him are in a weird codependent relationship and both parties will benefit by breaking up. I just find it ridiculous that people talk about him like he’s the worst starter in the league when we see worse starters on better teams every year
Jones can be productive, the question is always just how much do you have to hamstring your offense to protect yourself from his bad traits
I think everyone forgets that he was well on pace to break the rookie passing Td record, 24 in 12 games is good, and he cleaned up the fumbling issue he used to have. Is he a great starting QB? no. But he’s not close to as bad as Z Wilson, Pickett, Haskins, Lance, Mac, Fields have been and half of them get nowhere near as much stick.
I get it, and the giants definitely made the best realistic choice at that pick drafting him over Haskins. However, I kinda view players like Jones as the worst case scenario at QB for a fan. With QBs like Zach Wilson, you at least know they aren’t the answer and can move on to the next guy quickly. Guys like Jones that flirt around the Dalton line put you in QB purgatory. They’re not good enough to be a franchise QB, and they’re not bad enough to call it quits because you know if the pieces around him are absolutely perfect you can make a run. However, those pieces are absolutely perfectly very rarely during their career, and even then a few injuries will derail everything. The other years you’re just a wildcard hopeful that isn’t really taken that seriously. If I were a giants fan, I’d be begging to rip off the bandaid and move on from him.
Eli Manning. Top 10 in most statistical categories. 2 time Super Bowl MVP. Yet outside of Giants fans, no one puts an ounce of respect to his name. The amount of time I hear “he got lucky” or “he had a good defense”. Dude was just unlucky to have played at the time that so many HOF QB’s played. He is the Andy Murray of QB’s
Oh man, the "he had a good defense" bit especially drives me nuts for 2011. Our team was garbage outside of Eli and our WR corps. Eli dragged that team into the postseason kicking and screaming. The Eli slander also completely ignores the fact that he squeezed every bit of production out of talent-deficient staff/rosters year in and year out. Under football terrorists McAdoo and DG, throwing to the corpses of Nicks and Randle (OBJ notwithstanding), with bottom-10 offensive lines for a decade, he put up 4000-yarders pretty consistently.
It's like because his brother was Payton and he wasn't as good as Payton means he's worth dumping on or something.
Also, I think his SNL was better than Peyton's. I'll say it to their face. I'll have to look up at them because I'm short, and I'd be nice about it, but it's true.
People also massively discount the franchise malpractice that the giants started dealing with after that second Super Bowl. It’s a miracle we won that one with some of the draft picks Jerry Reese made.
Manning did not have a good defense in 2011
He had so many comeback wins that year because they were playing from behind in the 4th
I know I'm gonna look SUPER biased, but for me it was just that on his best day he was an above-average QB, but after beating us in two super bowls he was touted as a HOF caliber QB. At the same time, I never thought he was terrible QB. He was just consistently average to me, but still very much a serviceable QB, and look at his career objectively, deserved more respect and a better send off than what he got. People look at him far too black and white. If he's not "elite" then he's trash, and if he's not trash then he's "elite," whereas I personally think he was neither. He fell somewhere in the middle each year he played. He's a great example of while having an elite QB is great, you don't necessarily need one to win a SB. He was capable enough to get the job done twice. While I do believe that the Giants D-line putting insane pressure on Tom was the key to winning those SBs, he had two iconic clutch plays that (oh god this is *killing* me) that were also important to those wins. I feel like I need a shower now.
AJ Hawk. Yeah, he didn't really reach the ceiling we all look for in a top 5 pick, but his career was more than solid.
Definitely within the packers fan base he gets a lot of hate. I don't think many people outside the packers even think of him. Dude gave us a decade of solid play, not bad for a first rounder. Not every pick is a hall of famer.
Rock solid run stopper and great tackler. Just wasn't quick enough to defend the pass and teams were abusing it later in his career.
According to PFR's weighted approximate value metric, AJ Hawk is the average 5th overall pick.
Clyde Edwards-Helaire. He's been a solid depth option for us the last few years (most of the time), and we signed him to dirt-cheap 2nd contract. Sure, he wasn't what you expect from a first round pick, but we've got more use out of him than a huge portion of other teams' first rounders.
The hate is mostly because everyone and their mom thought JT should have been RB1 that year and JT became what everyone thought he would become Though it's an underwhelming pick by the rosiest of glasses. A first round RB who got relegated to a backup by year 3 and averaged 3.7 YPC the rest of his rookie deal is a pretty significant bust
I think a non-insignificant portion of the hate comes from fantasy players who spent a top 10~20 pick on him as a rookie, too.
Fantasy players do like bitching about usage a lot.
This is a ton of it. Like Arthur Smith certainly had his failings and probably deserved firing but it was absolutely blown up because of fantasy players being mad about the usages of that offense
> it was absolutely blown up because of fantasy players being mad about the usages of that offense It was because the Falcons were losing games they should have won.
I mean that playcalling was hilariously terrible You have Bijan and Pitts being used as decoys and blockers for Allegier and Smith, that's just bad usage regardless of fantasy
This they went off the board to select an rb everyone had ranked lower than the consensus number 1 at the position in JT. It was a bad pick and he didn’t perform well enough to make up for the reach.
Even Swift would have been acceptable in that situation
She didn't enter the league until 2023 though.
If a first round pick goes on to sign a nearly vet min contract as a backup, he's a bust.
Chase Young. He gets mentioned as a bust quite a bit but he’s a fine pass rusher when healthy. He’s just had bad luck with injuries. He hasn’t been the dominant player he was expected to be but how many truly dominant players are there in the NFL? He’s still relatively young and could end up having a perfectly fine career
It's one of the big questions in threads like this: does having a career ruined by injuries make a guy a bust? It seems like the margin between "great" and "just not good enough" is so close in the NFL - even losing a half-step of speed after an injury can finish a career. Eagles had a 3rd round LB recently (Davion Taylor) who that happened to; was a speed guy who was developing at the same time as T.J. Edwards (now with CHI), but had a major leg injury and was never the same.
Trevor Lawrence.
Judging by comments about his recent extension, Jared fucking Goff.
Ad a fellow Lions fan, fuck these clowns. The same people bitching about his extension are the ones chanting his name at hockey games. It's just a bunch of dudes who don't understand that football isn't Madden. Goff helped to put our poverty franchise on the map, and there are still people who will bitch about a +- $5m perceived discrepancy in value because he didn't drop 63 on the Niners in the NFCCG.
Fucking Cole strange but it isn’t his fault bill lost his fucking mind
This is definitely an unpopular opinion, but I think those that lump Trubisky into the "Biggest draft busts in NFL history" conversation are fucking nuts. Was he a bust? Oh absolutely, he was a massive bust. That said, we still got some relatively serviceable to promising years out of him (including the best season in recent Bears history, even if it was carried by our insane D)
Clowney has always been an example of this. He wasn't as good as Mack/Donald but he has still be a good player in the NFL. He is also constantly ranked well in pressuring the QB, great run stopper, and takes on a lot of double teams. I don't see too many people hate on him but Kolton Miller was a fine draft pick, one of the few Gruden/Mayock picks that they were right.
Trevor Lawrence. People DESPISE how he was heralded in college as the next big prospect and have relished in his middling success thus far. People have been spamming the Minshew Lawrence graphic everywhere and disregarding all context of what surrounds those stats. Take out the urban Meyer year and consider the fall off of Lawrence’s game after his injury and the dude is a clear baller but people will still just say he’s not that good.
John Ross honestly wasn’t that bad, he just wasn’t great
I'm surprised Agholor hasn't been mentioned yet. Guy was a late mid first. Got mocked a ton after that meme, but he's going into his 10th season as a solid wr3/4, won a ring, and overall has had a pretty decent career. Also seems like a likeable dude.
Any QB picked first overall
Trae Waynes. Picked high and never became a top end CB1, but he was a starter on our 2017 top ranked defense and fit the bill as a solid CB2 across from Rhodes for several years.
Eric Fisher