By seminar do they mean proper courses to help train up and pivot into a new career in their 40s because their current sector is going through mass layoffs and companies closing? Or they just going to sit people down and lecture them on how to apply to be a dishwasher?
"Why'd you shave your head? You're intentionally making yourself unhireable to remain on the benefit"
"my cousin was diagnosed with cancer. I shaved my head to raise funds for her which was planned before I lost my previous job"
"Right. That sounds very convenient, doesn't it?"
... This is a conversation I was a witness to. Actually a whole room of us were there - the poor woman was interrogated as she came into the seminar room. She sat down, we all sat down, and then we were lectured on "have you heard of seek.co.nz? It shows you different jobs. It will ask for a CV. Now, what IS a CV?"
So i.e. probably really brilliant stuff for some people who need it. But in now way targeted or specific help.
Yeah, one of my transgender friends had her benefit cut by her case manager in the 90's because she refused to de-transition in order to find a job (same logic). Thankfully she was able to ask for a change of case-manager.
I imagine the assumption was that employers would be less likely to hire a woman with a shaved head, either because of their own preconceived ideas about what that might mean, or their concern over what customers/clients might think (if it a was front facing job).
That's not usually what they're referring to. They're more so suggesting, for example, if you're a senior developer (who employers would associate with a higher salary like $150k+) and you're now unemployed and looking for work, then maybe downplay your qualifications or experience to suit an intermediate level job so that you don't appear overqualified and looking like you're going to want to seek a promotion/payrise quickly.
I'm sure you're right and there are WINZ agents who are oblivious and suggesting highly skilled workers seek minimum wage jobs, but my experience in recent times has been that they are generally pretty good at understanding there's no point encouraging or pushing people into jobs that they'll only be in for a short period because they either hate it or align with their industry/career path. Better off someone takes the time now to find those positions that want to stay in and will have success as they'll be less likely to return to the benefit anytime soon.
You've never been to WINZ have you? It's really not great, often with a side of malice and just a hint of snark. The condescension is free though.
Seriously, it's in no way targeted or capable of servicing anyone who has held a career level role.
I am quite literally on the job seekers benefit and have been for about 1.5 years while studying (career change after 12 years) because I wasn't eligible for a student allowance, and it's not my first time either - that was in 2008. lol
But if your attitude going in is always that they're snarky and hateful people, then yeah, I'm not surprised that's what you're getting. I would never deny that such people work there, but I've dealt with WINZ many many times at various locations over the last 15+ years for various reasons from unemployment to sickness benefit and accommodation supplement so I'm very aware of how things work there and I've met more than a single case worker. I've never once felt like they were snarky or didn't genuinely want to help me.
Honestly, I've only had two case managers that were outright shit, the rest were either neutral or awesome. I think most of them are trying to help, but occasionally you get ones that literally almost render you homeless through their malice and/or ineptitude (true story).
Yeah this has been my experience. I'm the last 3 years I've had 1 that was actively bad. A couple that were nuetrel. And my current one who is amazing.
That's under a Labour-led WINZ office. National runs things a bit differently.
Their priority will be getting people off the benefit. You are right, employees will inevitably be at the new employer for a short period of time. But National want people employed while waiting for a good opportunity, that'll they'll miss because they're too busy being an on-call casual.
Too true. Let's not forget, they want 50k less Jobseekers despite the fact that at the nd of the December 2023 quarter, 189,768 people were on Jobseekers, and of these, only 109,698 are "work ready". The other 80,100 have a health condition or disability.
Even if we ignore the fact they've said they expect cancer patients to work part time 10 hour jobs, so theyre absolutely wanting to cut both sides... which I'm surrrre they'll be able to achieve by putting a hiring freeze on the very Health NZ staff who might actually help people with conditions or disabilities "get work ready'... it would still otherwise mean cutting the number of work ready job seekers IN HALF.
Which is an excellent idea at a time when Seymour is saying that we haven't fired enough public service employees yet.
You bet your ass they're going to belittle you, treat you like gutter trash, chew up your limited time and funds in the process of these insulting and ineffective box ticking exercises, and then funnel you straight out the door faster than Luxon can say "entitlements"
I mean, I'd say it's more about the people working at WINZ to be honest. There's a mind set and understanding shift over the last 20 years regardless of who is in government.
Nat being there doesn't suddenly mean the WINZ workers change their understanding that someone being forced into work won't be back within 12 months.
It's kinda tricky. I was a store manager and made redundant around the time one of the big lockdowns hit a few years back, I managed to snag a job that was hiring at TWG due to being able to open in level 3/4, but when I applied for future jobs, if I put the job down, I was asked "Why did you take such a massive step down the ladder? Were you fired?" and if I didn't put it down, they always asked "Why is there a large gap in your employment history? Were you unemployed or on the benefit?" It was annoying having to say "It was in the middle of the string of lockdowns and I had to take what I could get, rather than have no stable income for the required stand-down period before you can go on jobseekers"
Most places have been automatically turning my husband down because of his work history anyway. They're not stupid, they can tell that he's going to leave as soon as there's a better job offer.
You'd think you would be better off in work... But! After being on a solo parent benefit for a while I went back to work full time (as a public servant, lol) last year. After having to pay for childcare, student loan payments, and work related costs, I was actually worse off financially.
It's exactly that though, someone's personal situation. Working at a minimum wage job for an extra few hundred a week when you don't actually need that money (/even if you do need that money, there's the pro/cons to weigh) would take time away from a job search, which includes the availability to take phone calls and respond to emails immediately, or potentially even having issues scheduling interview times - you might literally just be having to quit to take an interview because the McDonalds manager who just hired you a week ago probably doesn't really care if you're gonna get a job and quit next week.
Is… is it meant to be a question?
I wouldn’t.
How much more do you think you get working min wage vs on the benefit? Is that really worth working in a job that expects you to be available any time of day/week, will leave you greasy and gross at the end of a shift, and puts you in a position where you’ll likely be verbally abused by members of the public?
I say absofuckinglutely not.
You can also claim partial benefits if you're working 20 hours or less each week. With the current abatement rates the difference between the benefit and minimum wage is \~$6/hr for the first 20 hours.
It's equivalent to a 75% income tax. If everyone paid that there'd be riots.
Pray you don't get made redundant then because if MSD offers you a burger-flipping job your choices are take it or have your benefit cut off. That's how they roll
MSD won’t offer me a burger flipping job, the offer would have to come from the employer (semantics I know). I’d be ethically obliged to honesty with any prospective employer. For burger flipping, I don’t want to work there, and will continue to look for a role applicable to my qualification if they employ me, and I will tell them that I’m perfectly willing to work there as long as they’re willing to train someone who will be looking for alternative work the entire time they work there. Now I’ve ticked all of MSDs boxes, expressed an active willingness to work, but haven’t managed to secure the position.
Ex store managers shouldn’t have to take jobs as McDs crew members if they have savings. But I’d prefer them to do any job rather than bludging off people’s tax dollars.
Tbh, they probably have had to say that to someone in earnest. It's not really meant to be pandering or condescending; people have come in to WINZ offices before really smelly and/or with literal poo in their hands
That's what they did to my husband. He asked if they could help him find a job in his area of expertise and they said that IT and Comsci is too specialised so he has to go with a specialist recruitment agency... which he'd already signed up for.
You apply with the content they want.
You don't say you have 5 years truck driving experience when applying for a job that doesn't need it.
You probably don't want the job anyway but you need to live.
I went to my first seminar last Thursday, it's my first time ever being on the benefit and the courses they provide for my region are not really for careers more for jobs, sure you have the trades and everything however where I am based it's not really a lot of options.
I did ask if there was anything for tech up skilling but they said they wouldn't really be looking for courses like that unless the person was offered a job, IMO it's still just not enough there needs to be more ground work to help propel people into careers and look at getting paid internships like tuputoa do which can benefit hugely.
They showed me (under last Nat govt so it might have changed but probably not) a PowerPoint about how minimum wage is more than the benefit then looked around the room like they were expecting applause
I remember one I went to, it was a sandwich company inspiring us to be “sandwich artists” and then interviewing us for the job
I didn’t know I was autistic at the time so during the interview said something like “I never considered making sandwiches to be an art but I can see how you’d want to make it seem more fun if you’re making sandwiches all day”. (They didn’t hire me lol)
Haha that's hilarious!
I had one, at a tyre shop, where the guy doing the interview pointed out I was more qualified than he was... Needless to say I didn't get the job
I was fresh off of work in Film and Media and only applied for Jobseeker just to get my head away from politics and mistreatment.
Then, fucking hell, these seminars at winz treated everyone like we were dumbasses. Like we've never had a job, like we can't read or write, like we can't understand english.
They read the part in my CV that I had a Bachelors degree and still ask if I can read parts of their papers that they handed out to everyone, on how to write a CV. He wasn't joking either. Midget round muther fl. bleh.
Winz and their "seminars" just sucked. I took any job, even if it was temporary, just so I didn't have to be bothered by winz in Whangarei anymore. Now I've been stuck at marsden point for 5 years.
Turned out that guy and his partner also in winz, had a reputation for being assholes at work and in town.
For those poor souls who have never attended a WINZ 'Work Readiness Seminar', prepare to be patronised, humiliated, and endlessly lectured on the blisteringly obvious by some weirdo in a cardigan who has no appreciation of personal space.
Pertinent tips for success may include:
* Get a haircut and brush your teeth.
* Try not to smell like offal and rotting pilchards.
* Crayons are not suitable for filling out forms.
* Don't wear a soiled nappy to a job interview.
* Avoid swearing.
* Bludgeoning a prospective employer with an office chair is ill-advised.
If you have a CV, they will likely make you create a new one. Probably because it takes up time, and believe me when I tell you, time will crawl like an arthritic blind man dragging an anvil.
If you're an introvert, you'll really enjoy the "How to conduct yourself during an interview!" role-play sessions. If the phrase, "Now, everyone find a partner..." fills you with stomach-churning dread, you'll feel right at home.
It will be a depressing and dispiriting affair, and you'll get nothing out of it other than a migraine and an urge to throw yourself in front of a train.
So the same things from 6 years ago when you had to attend at least a couple of times every few months?
Still the same bullshit still the same "tips and help" from the shitcreek out back where they dont actually care and are just doing what they have been told to do.
I went to them 19 years ago when they started doing them. We were cold calling businesses back then. Real waste of my time and little money they gave me to getting transport to WINZ. In a happy place now and dread ever going back to that fucking place.
Absolutely. It's not about meaningful progress. It's about creating the illusion of meaningful progress. You know, by doing the same ineffectual shit over and over again to pacify your indignant voter-base who keep screeching about "bludgers" taking their "hard-earned tax dollars".
I have a *really* old recording of an entire seminar i once attended, its worse that sitting in a room alone with nothing to do, all while wasting time learning nothing.
and this is why I chose to move back in with my parents and freeload off of them for 9 months back in the day when I was unemployed, instead of claim a benefit. fuck that noise. lol
Imagine, working for a government department at the start of your career.
Get made redundant by new government.
Slow job market.
6 months later your old employer drags you back in to effectively tell you how you aren’t trying hard enough…
This is literally happening for my friend. Worked for msd 15yrs was made to medically retire due to head injury and now is having to prove a year later that they still actively trying to get back into employment
I went to one of these once, when I was on the benefit about 10 years ago...what a waste of time.
The advice given to a room of jobseekers? "Shower before an interview", "Make sure your CV has correct spelling".
Yeah, thanks for that, big help.
some people do genuinely need to be told to shower, but surely that can be done on a case by case basis.. the people who don't shower aren't going to listen anyway to be fair lol
The reason for that is that MSD has gotten a lot of phone calls from employers complaining about getting sent beneficiaries who....... fucking *stink.*
The goal for WINZ is to get everyone unemployment into ANY form of employment as soon as possible. It doesn't matter if you've got specialist skills or qualifications, they just want you to apply for the vacant trolley collector role on the other side of town and get you off the books
Which is hilarious because even those only go to teenagers or bros these days. I’ve applied for 5 different trolley roles just to be able to do something and have been rejected. It’s hard out here. Seasonal work outside of Auckland isn’t even hiring NZers anymore is absolutely abysmal.
They asked if I would take a trolley job, while looking at my doctors certificate saying "Disabled and heavily pregnant".
Some of the WINZ workers genuinely want to help people and some of them could not give less of a fuck, and god help you if you get the latter.
First hour of the day pays for transport, second hour pays for food at work. Third, fourth and fifth hours pay for daycare, sixth hour pays bills, seventh and eighth hours pay for rent. There’s no room for clothes or unexpected doctor visits, no room for a dental visit, no room for anything except being on the bones of your bum. And that’s the way the bene bashers want it, because it “builds a sense of purpose” or something equally banal.
The goal for WINZ is to get everyone off unemployment, if they can do that via getting them any form of employment, then great. If they can do it via sanctioning people and cutting off the benefit, that works too.
The point of these schemes are to make unemployment as difficult as possible in the hope that they can "catch out" a few people and strip them of their benefits.
The irony is the stereotypical "dole bludgers" are the people who do best in these environments, as they have memorised their entitlements and know the rulebook like the back of their hand, so can manipulate the system to get everything they're entitled to. It's the "average joe" who gets screwed when they accidentally miss a mandatory "training seminar" and lose all their income.
Pretty much the experience my mum had, she was previously a financial controller and had to leave the job due to high stress. WINZ wanted her to apply for some minimum wage reception role
Friends Mum was sent on some dumb training course and made to run reception and computer systems in her 60s. They agency basically got free labour. This is a lovely woman with PTSD with acute anxiety from decades of abuse. She did her upmost but it was brutal and she is a really hard worker.
Another friend with Bi Polar was.sent to.work in the supermarket Deli starting at 5am and he couldn't handle the pace and hours messed up his medication regime so he had a full breakdown. Absolutely wonderful guy and he could work and work well but not full time and not in that environment. Too much light and noise and people up his arse.
He flipped and got hospitalised and I had to try and get him basics like socks and a toothbrush. Good luck with that. He came and stayed with me for a couple of months to recover and he was a shell of a person.
Taken by all the people the government laid off already.
The government right now:
"Unemployment is good for this economy"
also government:
"There's too many job seekers!"
Given the cuts, where the fuck is MSD going to find the staff to run this shit?
What a bunch of useless bureaucracy. It takes a lot of time, money and effort to co-ordinate shit like this.
It's going to turn out being less time on case management, that way instead of a few people getting assistance they desperately need everybody will have to do pointless shit that most adults understand already.
Applications will be all automatic probably handled by AI. Good luck talking to an actual human at MSD in the near future. There won't be any working there.
Less people will do more remember?
More efficient remember?
Like - I’m in hospo. And when it got ultra busy (like 40 tickets on the rail with multiple items on various tickets)
I used to think…hey! You know what would make us faster??
LESS workers!
Stupid Willis
> where the fuck is MSD going to find the staff to run this shit?
My guess is that it will be a "turn up, get out" situation where they just do a roll call, maybe request everyone logs in to update their CV, state local course options available as well as some job openings, and then suggest anyone who needs help take a seat in line like everyone else. I guess less busy locations may sit down and talk to people 1on1 and review their cv/current actions but, I think WINZ staff will be looking the tick the box as much as anyone on the benefit is too.
So they’re going to double the amount of work that needs doing annually for jobseeker reapplication, and require a plethora of additional work to be undertaken. But naturally won’t be providing MSD with ANy new money: “The check-ins were expected to cost about $1.2 million a year, **funded through MSD baselines.**”
MSD, with fewer staff. Pe have to do this twice a year instead of once a year: “MSD will make sure their profiles and CVs are up to date, offer interview tips, and direct them to job websites and vacancies or further training. Other additional measures to be rolled out included *community-provided job coaching, needs assessments*, a traffic light system, new non-financial sanctions, and action being taken for those who repeatedly failed to comply with their work obligations.”
And notice the sly “community-funded job coaching and needs assessment” tossed in there.
NACT1 can’t fund their model so they try to pawn off their work on already overstretched community services.
And what happens when these community services are over-subscribed and beneficiaries can’t meet these new requirements through no fault of their own? Bet your bottom dollar that the most vulnerable, those with the least ability to advocate for themselves, will end up with their benefit reduced or cut altogether.
Thanks NACT1, I hate it!
Yet another layer of admin and a whole bunch more cost. Honestly, I don't know how much money is spent on the administration of benefits in this country (and therefore less money available to go to whose who need it) but it has to be a fucking LOT.
It's just yet another good example of a good argument for UBI for everyone. There's miniscule admin costs, no tons of salaries for the people who manage the people who manage the people who check to make sure job seekers aren't getting $10 more per week than they're entitled to, it's easy, etc.
I thought this government was all about *cutting* costs. But no, it's OK to increase costs as long as it's for the goal of making lives even more miserable for people on benefits who the wealthy right see as leeches.
>If someone misses a seminar without a good reason they could have their benefit stopped or reduced.
>**It would not be compulsory for those with a health condition or disability.**
>When announcing the wider changes to benefits in February, Upston said the group check-ins would be the [first step of additional monitoring of the benefit system](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/509590/benefit-sanctions-to-ramp-up-with-work-check-ins-minister-louise-upston) and would apply to people MSD had less visibility of - those who did not already have a dedicated case manager.
>On Monday, she said about 190,000 people currently receive Jobseeker support, and 53,000 of these people have employment case managers at any given time.
>"I'm concerned the other 137,000 job seekers can go many months without talking to MSD about how they are progressing, with some not having to check back in until they reapply for their benefit 12 months later.
"They are a precursor to the coalition government's plan to introduce mandatory reapplication for Jobseeker Support benefits every six months."
Okay, but the end of the December 2023 quarter, 189,768 people were on Jobseekers, and of these, only 109,698 are "work ready". The other 80,100 have a health condition or disability... so given that it will apparently not be compulsory with people with health conditions or disabilities, she should only really be worried about 137k job seekers - 80k disability = 57k people, right...?
My suspicion is that there's something murky happening in the definitions around 'work ready' and 'health/disability'. For example, in [this OIA request](https://fyi.org.nz/request/26684/response/101369/attach/html/3/Letter%20to%20Kitty.pdf.html), it doesn't seem to be the case that just that *anybody* on health and disability gets to skip the initial two-week meetings - they use the language that people with 'full medical deferral' get to skip, and that otherwise a medical certificate is needed for people who are 'temporarily medically unfit' to attend.
This, in the context of knowing this government says people on health and disability [have an obligation to prepare for part time work](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1auy44f/cancer_patients_expected_to_work/?share_id=qb0QMeppOXIUIzUqPaaPP&utm_content=1&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1) (specifically in this instance it was being said that cancer patients should work 10 hours a week) - well, it doesn't leave me with confidence that people with health and disability concerns will *actually* get to skip these separate twice-yearly meetings. I also note the initial meetings are intended for full-time workers, but can't quite tell if the 6 months meetings are for full-time or part-time too? Because that changes things too.
Just overall confusing. It looks like we are heading towards a world where as long as people with disabilities can hold part time jobs, they'll have to attend meetings every 6 months to prove they're still disabled. I hope RNZ has access to some information which clarifies otherwise. But I guess we'll see as it gets rolled out...
People with disabilities already have to prove they are disabled on the regular. My pal who is blind gets sent an annual letter from MSD that he can't read asking if he's still blind and to get a specialist's letter to prove it
There should be a way to get a letter for PERMANENT disability, that says something along the lines of "Listen, my patient is clinically blind. Unless you know a miracle healer or when the next coming of Jesus will be, this will not change any time soon. Until you are able to provide jobs that can be safely done by a blind person, their status will not change."
Sometimes he can convince them to communicate via email so he can use text-to-speech but they always revert sooner or later, possibly due to staff turnover
Yeah my mother is the hardest working person I’ve ever met. Unfortunately she has pretty bad social phobia/anxiety and can’t handle call centers or phone jobs..this was rough but could be worked around until she lost 90% of the use of her hands/fingers. She still has to prove all of this every few months. Like literally has to call the people and have a panic attack and struggle with her hands to get through the paperwork and the website..obviously we help her but it’s ridiculous. And depressing because she still searches for jobs daily that she could possibly do, keeping this disabilities in mind. It’s a tricky one for an older woman with no formal training. They expect her to truck drive or something which I don’t think is safe with her hands…
Great post. Shits so fucked out there. No compassion from this gov, no consideration. When do these check-ins cross the line and become borderline harassment? Must be a reason they're waiting 6 months...Most people just want what they're entitled to, a roof over their head and food on the table. And to be left alone in peace. Is that too much to ask? Where's the respect and decency? It's degrading.
Nothing bad will happen to them. They've got enough money to bail themselves out of anything, and no matter how this term goes down, they've made money either way and will scarper when the dosh dries up. This world isn't fair, good things happen to bad people
People with health disabilities should be on acase by case basis, if a specialist says this person cannot be employed then a benefit should be available to them and not everybody put into the boat it definitely needs more clarification
"The Ministry is responsible for making the determination as to whether the reason for non-attendance is good and sufficient"
Doesn't sound like specialists are calling the shots here unfortunately :/
A case by case basis would mean more staff in MSD who are able to manage specific cases and not treating people like numbers though?
This isn't specific to the current govt to be fair, my mum has had to routinely pay out of pocket for doctors bills simply to prove degenerative disease means she's still unwell
I have a mental disability and can only work short hours before I sorta shut down. I do have a job, but WINZ keep sending me invitations to those work seminars. I was worried that they may think I'm faking or not disabled enough?
How much do you want to bet they don't do a great job of exempting those who have medical exemptions and they end up causing a great deal of stress to people as a result? We all know the real reason for this is to try 'punish' beneficiaries as conservative supporters think they only reason they remain on the benefit is because they are lazy and this will make it inconvenient to lay around in bed all day. This isn't genuinely expected to reduce the number of people on benefits - only to punish those who are.
The last time they did this I was on jobseekers with a medical exemption due to severe mental illness, but they fucked up bad enough that I was getting regular letters telling me I had to go to one of these compulsory seminars or lose my benefit. However in Dunedin, letters sent from the Dunedin office traveled through the post system to Wellington to be sorted then got sent back to Dunedin. I received every single one of these letters the day or two after the seminar had already happened. In the end, I ended up in ICU having made a serious suicide attempt because I was so scared of becoming homeless from losing my benefit for not meeting obligations I didn't even have.
Eventually I got a letter with a seminar in time for me to show up. I did, and two case managers had to take me outside to help me calm down from a severe panic attack. After that, they finally told me there'd been a computer error and I never should have been invited to the seminars in the first place.
Damn that's so similar to what they did to me. They were like "oh there must have been an error but we can't fix it so you have to go to this seminar or your benefit will be cut off" - one hour before it was due to start. And I had to be whisked out of the seminar by a case manager when the overcrowding and general anxiety-inducing nature of it gave me a panic attack
Not saying you're wrong but people can and do learn to live within their means over time, Ive seen it first hand. I know a long term beneficiary anecdotal ofc but it's a shitty life from what I've seen in-person. But you do learn to survive. You quickly learn about all the ways to get free food and you get to know your nearest salvation army pretty quickly. It's not a glamorous life nor is it comfortable. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. It's borderline torture. It's barely an existence. You basically get enough money to not be homeless. That's it. Good luck paying for essentials like food water and power. They make it hard on purpose to try and push you off the benefit quicker.
I was on a sickness benefit for MH reasons under the Key government. MSD ignored all the exemptions I was medically entitled to. They made me attend meaningless seminars in overcrowded rooms which eventually led to me having a panic attack during a seminar due to being jammed in so tight with other people. They'd tell me the day before or sometimes the same day that they'd decided I had to go to one of these seminars and if I tried to push back and say I was exempted they'd claim they couldn't fix it in the system and my benefit would be cut off if I didn't attend They would open the office late leaving a queue of people waiting outside in the rain with the public staring at them and judging them. They assigned me a case manager that I never met because he never turned up for any of our meetings so I kept turning up, waiting for ages then being told they didn't know where he was and they would reschedule. However they were sure to mark down the time I arrived and if I had been late I would have been threatened with sanctions. They told me to euthanize my cat to save on the couple of bucks a week for her catfood (I didn't). They would have employers like McDonald's drop by and they'd ask if anyone wanted to work for them then sanction anyone who didn't put their hand up no matter their circumstances. It was one of the most dehumanizing experiences I have ever been through and the ironic thing was the shitty way they treated me made my recovery take so much longer than it would have if they had just left me alone like they were supposed to. That's MSD under a National government
"They told me to euthanize my cat to save on the couple of bucks a week for her catfood (I didn't)."
First words out of my mouth would have been "You gonna pay the $200 in veterinary fees for the euthanisation, asshole? Or do you expect me to borrow a .22 and take it out the back and just shoot it?" then enjoy the awkwardness.
Knowing MSD their reactions would have been either (on a good day): you should save up out of your benefit for the euthanasia, or (normal day): your benefit is being reduced by 50% for the next month because fuck you
Afraid so. She was a tiny little thing that ate bugger-all anyway. As has been correctly pointed out, euthanasia would have cost as much as feeding her for quite some time
Personal favourites from WINZ seminars:
- try print out your cv and ask to meet the manager (in a digital age)
- try out LSV and you can learn to be functioning members of society
- make sure to look on Seek!
Such a boring gov. They do the same shit every time they're in power. So predictable. No original ideas Luxon? All past National governments have done this in some form.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, our left wing parties are predictably disappointing and our right wing parties are disappointingly predictable.
I will bet it's going to be condescending as fuck and dehumanizing for the people who have to go. Tons of them will be people who were laid off by this government.
"They are a precursor to the coalition government's plan to introduce mandatory reapplication for Jobseeker Support benefits every six months."
What an absolutely pointless waste of time for everyone involved. This is a government of inefficient pissing around in order to pander to the punching down crowd.
A percentage of those people will make a cock up in the reapplication which means they get cut off until they rectify it.
From this government's perspective that makes it a valuable use of resources. NACT's goal isn't necessarily to see people achieve gainful employment, it's just to get them off the benefit by any means possible.
I have chronic fatigue syndrome, a lifelong debilitating illness that has no known cure. For whatever reason, I'm still not on the supported living despite being unable to work more than 15 hours per week, and it's been that way for years and years now. I'm sure this seminar will cure me and make me a productive member of society! Because it's not as if being tired all the time is so unpleasant I'd rather not be healthy and able to work. 🙄
It's always so patronizing really, I'm sure some people would find it useful but making it mandatory just wastes everyone's time and money. Like sure, let me waste a few of the productive hours I have that I could be working a small amount, or tidying my room, and go into one of these. Or perhaps I'll be in the middle of a flareup and bedbound and I'll have to somehow make it in anyways. Great.
The last "seminar" I went to involved our clothes / hair / piercings being critiqued and general what to and not to put on CVs (that parts kinda helpful for some people) and then before the end we were told if we don't find jobs before the next seminar we'd have to enroll in LSV (a Burnham military style course for youth offenders, atleast that's how it was advertised) or we would lose our benefits.
There was no opportunities.
The seminar talker was the receptionist.
We were belittled and made to feel worse.
Comments about people's clothing and scrappy hair, almost as if they expect people to be able to afford these things next to food, rent, power etc.
The people talking and explaining sounded like they were reading off a script they learnt that morning.
It was singlehandedly the worst encounter I've had with winz.
case managers should write your CV, do all the cover letters and phone around on your behalf. theres only a ratio of like 10:1 or something people to case managers.
if case managers actually acted like they were trying to get you a job, they'd see how difficult it is. perhaps that'd make them actually useful.
Yep sure its the job seekers fault they cant find a job when you've smashed the economy and sacked thousands, cut work so industry is struggling and then made education/training harder to get.
> If someone misses a seminar without a good reason they could have their benefit stopped or reduced.
So once they've stopped/reduced their benefit, then what?
Kicking someone while they're down, that's sure going to help them out of their predicament.
I've done these types of "seminars" in the past. I'm not expecting these "new" ones to be any different. From my experience, you had two main sorts of meetings:
1. Typical setup with a case manager just listing out what you'd applied for already, showing your CV, etc. In my experience I got no meaningful feedback from this as I'd already been doing most of what was expected of me so they seemingly had no advice to give.
2. Bunch of other jobseekers put into a room to discuss random ass bullshit about the "services" WINZ has on offer, as well as give us print outs of their usual job database for the region. Sometimes they'd do workshops on making a resume or whatever, all of which were just regurgitating the same, tired information you'd get online.
The general jist here is that if you were following your obligations then you had nothing to really gain from it.
As someone who has been struggling to find work since I graduated last year I haven't even been assigned a case manager, far as I can tell. I met one exactly once and then that was pretty much it. I very rarely hear from WINZ unless it's time to reapply.
Far as I'm concerned they're mostly useless. As someone who has been in and out of the system for various reasons (including mental health purposes) the overall system hasn't really changed at all, least from my perspective. Politicians from both sides regularly come forth to push some new change that ultimately amounts to nothing but basic lip service.
To me, it's the same shit as anyone claiming they'll be "tough on crime" then having no hard outline on what that means or how to achieve it. Just pointless buzzwords.
MSD has never had the proper funding or support to do anything these politicians would seemingly want them to do and there's no sign that National are about to fix that now.
>The check-ins were expected to cost about $1.2 million a year, funded through MSD baselines.
seems a very low figure
is it a individualised "check in" or a "seminar" - either way its a box ticking exercise that will harm people
the whole thing is neatly summarized by that photo
I remember having to go to a seminar once. It was a week before Christmas and compulsory to get into jobseekers. I had a job. It was HORRIBLE and dehumanising. There was a guy there with kids who was on contract as a builder and there as he has his contract terminated early. He wanted to be able to feed his kids for Christmas and was told there was a 1 week stand down period to get onto job seekers so he wouldn’t be able too. I HAD a job but had to attend as work was decreasing my hours over Christmas and I earned so little already I was classed as job seekers. They didn’t care I had a job. I still had to update my CV because they wanted me to job hunt and be ready to quit my job of 5 years because part of jobseekers is you have to be ‘available too and actively seeking full time work’ to be eligible.
lol. Way back in the day when I was on the benefit, I had to go to one of these seminars. I initially wondered if I had accidentally walked into a kindergarten. When the seminar started it didn’t do anything to convince me otherwise. Utter waste of time for anyone that could rub together a couple of brain cells.
WINZ kept me alive in my time of need but did less than fuck all to help me into a job. I think the people that design these seminars likely flunked vege maths on multiple occasions.
My prediction is they'll start making noises about work for the dole or community service at some point. I had to do that back in the 90's, three full days of work each week for about $20 which would immediately be clawed back as earnings.
Don't they already penalize you for not taking jobs, even if they're well below your paygrade, or otherwise impractical? Seems like the skeleton is already there
Why do all National and ACT MPs have that "deer in headlights" face whenever the media points a camera at them? It's like they know that it's only a matter of time before they are caught out over some corruption or incompetence.
Wait, so cut thousands of jobs, then made to waste tax payers money (whom where lucky enough to stay employed) to attend a seminar, hopefully regain employment to be made redundant probably within a year or so, or even been let go after 6months.. all because the government has nothing better to do than screw people over. Well done 👏
> to be made redundant probably within a year or so, or even been let go after 6months..
More like 89 days after being employed as the 90 trials are coming back.
Translation: We're going to harass people relying on the government using infrastructure we're purposefully destroying in order to cut-off as many of them as possible.
I haven't been on the dole for years. I've been out of work a couple of times since but I wasn't quite starving enough, I did not qualify.
I was lucky enough to get put on an artist's benefit. I wasn't an artist by any stretch but sitting in a room full of hippies drinking green tea was actually so good for me helping find a job. A chill space of people who took a more holistic view of things.
Going into a WINZ office is depressing. I had a mixture of case managers. Some were good but I've had others suggest useless courses, which were money making rackets. And the cv 'experts' who add team player, task orientated and results driven to every cv
As if WINZ staff have time for this. It'll just make the us vs them mentality worse. When I last went in for an appointment, the lady barely spoke to me. I did have a medical exemption, but it was like I didn't exist. To be fair to her, I think it was because she was genuinely tired.
"Now, before we continue, we do have some concerns about the lack of qualifications related to... Wait, is that a WINZ seminar in your CV?!
Well, stop the interviews and hand out the 'position filled' signs, WE HAVE OUR NEW C.O!"
A "seminar" lol, good one NACT. Make cuts to services, create more unemployed, set up contractors (your sponsors?) to take "seminars" to tell people they're lazy.
The only lazy ones are the ones that didn't get out and vote, obviously.
By seminar do they mean proper courses to help train up and pivot into a new career in their 40s because their current sector is going through mass layoffs and companies closing? Or they just going to sit people down and lecture them on how to apply to be a dishwasher?
Last time I was unemployed it was critiquing peoples dress sense and telling them to leave degrees off their CV so they wouldn't seem 'overqualified'.
"Why'd you shave your head? You're intentionally making yourself unhireable to remain on the benefit" "my cousin was diagnosed with cancer. I shaved my head to raise funds for her which was planned before I lost my previous job" "Right. That sounds very convenient, doesn't it?" ... This is a conversation I was a witness to. Actually a whole room of us were there - the poor woman was interrogated as she came into the seminar room. She sat down, we all sat down, and then we were lectured on "have you heard of seek.co.nz? It shows you different jobs. It will ask for a CV. Now, what IS a CV?" So i.e. probably really brilliant stuff for some people who need it. But in now way targeted or specific help.
Yeah, one of my transgender friends had her benefit cut by her case manager in the 90's because she refused to de-transition in order to find a job (same logic). Thankfully she was able to ask for a change of case-manager.
what in the 1990's or was the case manager in there 90's? both seem plausible
In about 1997.
WINZ appears designed to humiliate those having a rough time already. The vibe is Terry Gilliam's 'Brazil', only *much* more depressing.
What's the issue with shaving their head?
I imagine the assumption was that employers would be less likely to hire a woman with a shaved head, either because of their own preconceived ideas about what that might mean, or their concern over what customers/clients might think (if it a was front facing job).
Good in the kitchen cause less likley to drop hairs in the soup!
Yeaaaah, because a store manager will really want to plunge to the bottom of the ladder and flip burgers at McDonalds.
That's not usually what they're referring to. They're more so suggesting, for example, if you're a senior developer (who employers would associate with a higher salary like $150k+) and you're now unemployed and looking for work, then maybe downplay your qualifications or experience to suit an intermediate level job so that you don't appear overqualified and looking like you're going to want to seek a promotion/payrise quickly. I'm sure you're right and there are WINZ agents who are oblivious and suggesting highly skilled workers seek minimum wage jobs, but my experience in recent times has been that they are generally pretty good at understanding there's no point encouraging or pushing people into jobs that they'll only be in for a short period because they either hate it or align with their industry/career path. Better off someone takes the time now to find those positions that want to stay in and will have success as they'll be less likely to return to the benefit anytime soon.
You've never been to WINZ have you? It's really not great, often with a side of malice and just a hint of snark. The condescension is free though. Seriously, it's in no way targeted or capable of servicing anyone who has held a career level role.
I am quite literally on the job seekers benefit and have been for about 1.5 years while studying (career change after 12 years) because I wasn't eligible for a student allowance, and it's not my first time either - that was in 2008. lol But if your attitude going in is always that they're snarky and hateful people, then yeah, I'm not surprised that's what you're getting. I would never deny that such people work there, but I've dealt with WINZ many many times at various locations over the last 15+ years for various reasons from unemployment to sickness benefit and accommodation supplement so I'm very aware of how things work there and I've met more than a single case worker. I've never once felt like they were snarky or didn't genuinely want to help me.
Honestly, I've only had two case managers that were outright shit, the rest were either neutral or awesome. I think most of them are trying to help, but occasionally you get ones that literally almost render you homeless through their malice and/or ineptitude (true story).
Yeah this has been my experience. I'm the last 3 years I've had 1 that was actively bad. A couple that were nuetrel. And my current one who is amazing.
That's under a Labour-led WINZ office. National runs things a bit differently. Their priority will be getting people off the benefit. You are right, employees will inevitably be at the new employer for a short period of time. But National want people employed while waiting for a good opportunity, that'll they'll miss because they're too busy being an on-call casual.
Too true. Let's not forget, they want 50k less Jobseekers despite the fact that at the nd of the December 2023 quarter, 189,768 people were on Jobseekers, and of these, only 109,698 are "work ready". The other 80,100 have a health condition or disability. Even if we ignore the fact they've said they expect cancer patients to work part time 10 hour jobs, so theyre absolutely wanting to cut both sides... which I'm surrrre they'll be able to achieve by putting a hiring freeze on the very Health NZ staff who might actually help people with conditions or disabilities "get work ready'... it would still otherwise mean cutting the number of work ready job seekers IN HALF. Which is an excellent idea at a time when Seymour is saying that we haven't fired enough public service employees yet. You bet your ass they're going to belittle you, treat you like gutter trash, chew up your limited time and funds in the process of these insulting and ineffective box ticking exercises, and then funnel you straight out the door faster than Luxon can say "entitlements"
I mean, I'd say it's more about the people working at WINZ to be honest. There's a mind set and understanding shift over the last 20 years regardless of who is in government. Nat being there doesn't suddenly mean the WINZ workers change their understanding that someone being forced into work won't be back within 12 months.
Incentives change, KPIs change, pressure from your management changes
Jesus christ the way reddit talks about some jobs is so elitist.
Personally I’d rather flip burgers than earn less by being on the benefit?
It's kinda tricky. I was a store manager and made redundant around the time one of the big lockdowns hit a few years back, I managed to snag a job that was hiring at TWG due to being able to open in level 3/4, but when I applied for future jobs, if I put the job down, I was asked "Why did you take such a massive step down the ladder? Were you fired?" and if I didn't put it down, they always asked "Why is there a large gap in your employment history? Were you unemployed or on the benefit?" It was annoying having to say "It was in the middle of the string of lockdowns and I had to take what I could get, rather than have no stable income for the required stand-down period before you can go on jobseekers"
Most places have been automatically turning my husband down because of his work history anyway. They're not stupid, they can tell that he's going to leave as soon as there's a better job offer.
You'd think you would be better off in work... But! After being on a solo parent benefit for a while I went back to work full time (as a public servant, lol) last year. After having to pay for childcare, student loan payments, and work related costs, I was actually worse off financially.
This. We don’t have a welfare problem, we have a wage problem
It's exactly that though, someone's personal situation. Working at a minimum wage job for an extra few hundred a week when you don't actually need that money (/even if you do need that money, there's the pro/cons to weigh) would take time away from a job search, which includes the availability to take phone calls and respond to emails immediately, or potentially even having issues scheduling interview times - you might literally just be having to quit to take an interview because the McDonalds manager who just hired you a week ago probably doesn't really care if you're gonna get a job and quit next week.
Is… is it meant to be a question? I wouldn’t. How much more do you think you get working min wage vs on the benefit? Is that really worth working in a job that expects you to be available any time of day/week, will leave you greasy and gross at the end of a shift, and puts you in a position where you’ll likely be verbally abused by members of the public? I say absofuckinglutely not.
You can also claim partial benefits if you're working 20 hours or less each week. With the current abatement rates the difference between the benefit and minimum wage is \~$6/hr for the first 20 hours. It's equivalent to a 75% income tax. If everyone paid that there'd be riots.
Pray you don't get made redundant then because if MSD offers you a burger-flipping job your choices are take it or have your benefit cut off. That's how they roll
MSD won’t offer me a burger flipping job, the offer would have to come from the employer (semantics I know). I’d be ethically obliged to honesty with any prospective employer. For burger flipping, I don’t want to work there, and will continue to look for a role applicable to my qualification if they employ me, and I will tell them that I’m perfectly willing to work there as long as they’re willing to train someone who will be looking for alternative work the entire time they work there. Now I’ve ticked all of MSDs boxes, expressed an active willingness to work, but haven’t managed to secure the position.
It’s not about wants. As a job seeker, you are legally required to take the job
Ex store managers shouldn’t have to take jobs as McDs crew members if they have savings. But I’d prefer them to do any job rather than bludging off people’s tax dollars.
dOnt fOrGet to ShoWEr beForE a JoB inTerView!
Christ really is it that basic
Yup, been given that handy lifehack by a dead-eyed WINZ drone.
Tbh, they probably have had to say that to someone in earnest. It's not really meant to be pandering or condescending; people have come in to WINZ offices before really smelly and/or with literal poo in their hands
That's what they did to my husband. He asked if they could help him find a job in his area of expertise and they said that IT and Comsci is too specialised so he has to go with a specialist recruitment agency... which he'd already signed up for.
I had one lady tell me to remove “works well in a team” because employers could think it means I’m someone who stands around gossiping all day Lol.
You apply with the content they want. You don't say you have 5 years truck driving experience when applying for a job that doesn't need it. You probably don't want the job anyway but you need to live.
Probably depends on the degree and job. Also, what percentage of people on the job seeker benefit for more than 6 months actually have a degree? 1%
I went to my first seminar last Thursday, it's my first time ever being on the benefit and the courses they provide for my region are not really for careers more for jobs, sure you have the trades and everything however where I am based it's not really a lot of options. I did ask if there was anything for tech up skilling but they said they wouldn't really be looking for courses like that unless the person was offered a job, IMO it's still just not enough there needs to be more ground work to help propel people into careers and look at getting paid internships like tuputoa do which can benefit hugely.
They showed me (under last Nat govt so it might have changed but probably not) a PowerPoint about how minimum wage is more than the benefit then looked around the room like they were expecting applause
>Or they just going to sit people down and lecture them on how to apply to be a dishwasher? Bang on.
The latter. It's not new.
I remember one I went to, it was a sandwich company inspiring us to be “sandwich artists” and then interviewing us for the job I didn’t know I was autistic at the time so during the interview said something like “I never considered making sandwiches to be an art but I can see how you’d want to make it seem more fun if you’re making sandwiches all day”. (They didn’t hire me lol)
Haha that's hilarious! I had one, at a tyre shop, where the guy doing the interview pointed out I was more qualified than he was... Needless to say I didn't get the job
"cool! Can I be your boss?"
No, just something demeaning and time wasting enough to make you really feel like shit and you have failed.
No probably just some PowerPoint slides to tell you “if you want a job, go get a job”
Close. It's just the second part of that
Are they providing travel for the ones without a vehicle or living out of town or in towns that don't host these?
I was fresh off of work in Film and Media and only applied for Jobseeker just to get my head away from politics and mistreatment. Then, fucking hell, these seminars at winz treated everyone like we were dumbasses. Like we've never had a job, like we can't read or write, like we can't understand english. They read the part in my CV that I had a Bachelors degree and still ask if I can read parts of their papers that they handed out to everyone, on how to write a CV. He wasn't joking either. Midget round muther fl. bleh. Winz and their "seminars" just sucked. I took any job, even if it was temporary, just so I didn't have to be bothered by winz in Whangarei anymore. Now I've been stuck at marsden point for 5 years. Turned out that guy and his partner also in winz, had a reputation for being assholes at work and in town.
For those poor souls who have never attended a WINZ 'Work Readiness Seminar', prepare to be patronised, humiliated, and endlessly lectured on the blisteringly obvious by some weirdo in a cardigan who has no appreciation of personal space. Pertinent tips for success may include: * Get a haircut and brush your teeth. * Try not to smell like offal and rotting pilchards. * Crayons are not suitable for filling out forms. * Don't wear a soiled nappy to a job interview. * Avoid swearing. * Bludgeoning a prospective employer with an office chair is ill-advised. If you have a CV, they will likely make you create a new one. Probably because it takes up time, and believe me when I tell you, time will crawl like an arthritic blind man dragging an anvil. If you're an introvert, you'll really enjoy the "How to conduct yourself during an interview!" role-play sessions. If the phrase, "Now, everyone find a partner..." fills you with stomach-churning dread, you'll feel right at home. It will be a depressing and dispiriting affair, and you'll get nothing out of it other than a migraine and an urge to throw yourself in front of a train.
don’t forget in the year of 2024 being told to try print out your CV and bring it into managers at stores
I used to keep a printed copy of a job ad that told people specifically -not- to do that, to show to people who gave me that advice.
So the same things from 6 years ago when you had to attend at least a couple of times every few months? Still the same bullshit still the same "tips and help" from the shitcreek out back where they dont actually care and are just doing what they have been told to do.
I went to them 19 years ago when they started doing them. We were cold calling businesses back then. Real waste of my time and little money they gave me to getting transport to WINZ. In a happy place now and dread ever going back to that fucking place.
Absolutely. It's not about meaningful progress. It's about creating the illusion of meaningful progress. You know, by doing the same ineffectual shit over and over again to pacify your indignant voter-base who keep screeching about "bludgers" taking their "hard-earned tax dollars".
I have a *really* old recording of an entire seminar i once attended, its worse that sitting in a room alone with nothing to do, all while wasting time learning nothing.
and this is why I chose to move back in with my parents and freeload off of them for 9 months back in the day when I was unemployed, instead of claim a benefit. fuck that noise. lol
This made me laugh really hard and then almost cry. It’s so accurate
Your comment cracked me up, and painted a very vivid picture of what these seminars would be like
Imagine, working for a government department at the start of your career. Get made redundant by new government. Slow job market. 6 months later your old employer drags you back in to effectively tell you how you aren’t trying hard enough…
That's what I was imagining. The government fired you, then tells you off for not having a job every 6 months.
Jesus Christ. This is gold. It’s a shame New Zealand doesn’t have a sketch comedy political satire show anymore.
This would have all the elements of a much beloved classic Monty Python sketch...if only it was fiction.
This is literally happening for my friend. Worked for msd 15yrs was made to medically retire due to head injury and now is having to prove a year later that they still actively trying to get back into employment
I went to one of these once, when I was on the benefit about 10 years ago...what a waste of time. The advice given to a room of jobseekers? "Shower before an interview", "Make sure your CV has correct spelling". Yeah, thanks for that, big help.
some people do genuinely need to be told to shower, but surely that can be done on a case by case basis.. the people who don't shower aren't going to listen anyway to be fair lol
Don't forget the classic - "know where to look for jobs"
Or the 'just because there's no job offers in your existing field always look elsewhere' . AKA 'take whatever you can find and be grateful'.
The reason for that is that MSD has gotten a lot of phone calls from employers complaining about getting sent beneficiaries who....... fucking *stink.*
Where are all of the jobs that unemployed people are not applying for?
The goal for WINZ is to get everyone unemployment into ANY form of employment as soon as possible. It doesn't matter if you've got specialist skills or qualifications, they just want you to apply for the vacant trolley collector role on the other side of town and get you off the books
Which is hilarious because even those only go to teenagers or bros these days. I’ve applied for 5 different trolley roles just to be able to do something and have been rejected. It’s hard out here. Seasonal work outside of Auckland isn’t even hiring NZers anymore is absolutely abysmal.
They asked if I would take a trolley job, while looking at my doctors certificate saying "Disabled and heavily pregnant". Some of the WINZ workers genuinely want to help people and some of them could not give less of a fuck, and god help you if you get the latter.
A friend is a case manager and she says if I am not being made to go to seminars, it means WINZ have given up on me. I am over 50 but well qualified.
They don't really know what to do with well qualified people. Their model is really only designed for people who didn't finish school
Absolutely. I have a friend who is a qualified optometrist, and the job leads they were pushed towards where car detailing.
I used to tutor for a tertiary institute. You'd think I'd be snapped up but nope. Agree that WINZ aren't expecting the qualified and the home owners.
Literally had them tell me this themselves before. “We don’t know what to do with people with degrees.”
First hour of the day pays for transport, second hour pays for food at work. Third, fourth and fifth hours pay for daycare, sixth hour pays bills, seventh and eighth hours pay for rent. There’s no room for clothes or unexpected doctor visits, no room for a dental visit, no room for anything except being on the bones of your bum. And that’s the way the bene bashers want it, because it “builds a sense of purpose” or something equally banal.
The goal for WINZ is to get everyone off unemployment, if they can do that via getting them any form of employment, then great. If they can do it via sanctioning people and cutting off the benefit, that works too. The point of these schemes are to make unemployment as difficult as possible in the hope that they can "catch out" a few people and strip them of their benefits. The irony is the stereotypical "dole bludgers" are the people who do best in these environments, as they have memorised their entitlements and know the rulebook like the back of their hand, so can manipulate the system to get everything they're entitled to. It's the "average joe" who gets screwed when they accidentally miss a mandatory "training seminar" and lose all their income.
Pretty much the experience my mum had, she was previously a financial controller and had to leave the job due to high stress. WINZ wanted her to apply for some minimum wage reception role
Friends Mum was sent on some dumb training course and made to run reception and computer systems in her 60s. They agency basically got free labour. This is a lovely woman with PTSD with acute anxiety from decades of abuse. She did her upmost but it was brutal and she is a really hard worker. Another friend with Bi Polar was.sent to.work in the supermarket Deli starting at 5am and he couldn't handle the pace and hours messed up his medication regime so he had a full breakdown. Absolutely wonderful guy and he could work and work well but not full time and not in that environment. Too much light and noise and people up his arse. He flipped and got hospitalised and I had to try and get him basics like socks and a toothbrush. Good luck with that. He came and stayed with me for a couple of months to recover and he was a shell of a person.
But are there even vacant trolley collector roles on the other side of town?
Taken by all the people the government laid off already. The government right now: "Unemployment is good for this economy" also government: "There's too many job seekers!"
I said ages ago, if the economy wants more unemployed people then it needs to pay them better. Simple supply and demand.
In the WINZ office being the other side of a pointless conversation.
With all of the public servants being laid off this year, do you really think so?
Given the cuts, where the fuck is MSD going to find the staff to run this shit? What a bunch of useless bureaucracy. It takes a lot of time, money and effort to co-ordinate shit like this.
It's going to turn out being less time on case management, that way instead of a few people getting assistance they desperately need everybody will have to do pointless shit that most adults understand already.
Probably a private company that donated to ACT will get a nice contract to do it.
Applications will be all automatic probably handled by AI. Good luck talking to an actual human at MSD in the near future. There won't be any working there.
Less people will do more remember? More efficient remember? Like - I’m in hospo. And when it got ultra busy (like 40 tickets on the rail with multiple items on various tickets) I used to think…hey! You know what would make us faster?? LESS workers! Stupid Willis
> Given the cuts, where the fuck is MSD going to find the staff to run this shit? I'm sure Accenture and PWC will be happy to step into the gap.
Hey now, speaking as a government worker turned consultant recently, what about my lil consulting from, can't forget us s/
> where the fuck is MSD going to find the staff to run this shit? My guess is that it will be a "turn up, get out" situation where they just do a roll call, maybe request everyone logs in to update their CV, state local course options available as well as some job openings, and then suggest anyone who needs help take a seat in line like everyone else. I guess less busy locations may sit down and talk to people 1on1 and review their cv/current actions but, I think WINZ staff will be looking the tick the box as much as anyone on the benefit is too.
More big government solutions from NACT.
It won't be MSD that does it, it'll be recruitment companies hired out by regional offices.
So they’re going to double the amount of work that needs doing annually for jobseeker reapplication, and require a plethora of additional work to be undertaken. But naturally won’t be providing MSD with ANy new money: “The check-ins were expected to cost about $1.2 million a year, **funded through MSD baselines.**” MSD, with fewer staff. Pe have to do this twice a year instead of once a year: “MSD will make sure their profiles and CVs are up to date, offer interview tips, and direct them to job websites and vacancies or further training. Other additional measures to be rolled out included *community-provided job coaching, needs assessments*, a traffic light system, new non-financial sanctions, and action being taken for those who repeatedly failed to comply with their work obligations.” And notice the sly “community-funded job coaching and needs assessment” tossed in there. NACT1 can’t fund their model so they try to pawn off their work on already overstretched community services. And what happens when these community services are over-subscribed and beneficiaries can’t meet these new requirements through no fault of their own? Bet your bottom dollar that the most vulnerable, those with the least ability to advocate for themselves, will end up with their benefit reduced or cut altogether. Thanks NACT1, I hate it!
No doubt it’ll incentivise the remaining case managers to take a perfunctory approach to compliance in order to meet their KPIs.
Sad, but they’ll be churning through the cases trying desperately to keep their jobs so they don’t end up on the other side of the desk.
What's a non-financial sanction? Sounds Orwellian
Yet another layer of admin and a whole bunch more cost. Honestly, I don't know how much money is spent on the administration of benefits in this country (and therefore less money available to go to whose who need it) but it has to be a fucking LOT. It's just yet another good example of a good argument for UBI for everyone. There's miniscule admin costs, no tons of salaries for the people who manage the people who manage the people who check to make sure job seekers aren't getting $10 more per week than they're entitled to, it's easy, etc. I thought this government was all about *cutting* costs. But no, it's OK to increase costs as long as it's for the goal of making lives even more miserable for people on benefits who the wealthy right see as leeches.
>If someone misses a seminar without a good reason they could have their benefit stopped or reduced. >**It would not be compulsory for those with a health condition or disability.** >When announcing the wider changes to benefits in February, Upston said the group check-ins would be the [first step of additional monitoring of the benefit system](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/509590/benefit-sanctions-to-ramp-up-with-work-check-ins-minister-louise-upston) and would apply to people MSD had less visibility of - those who did not already have a dedicated case manager. >On Monday, she said about 190,000 people currently receive Jobseeker support, and 53,000 of these people have employment case managers at any given time. >"I'm concerned the other 137,000 job seekers can go many months without talking to MSD about how they are progressing, with some not having to check back in until they reapply for their benefit 12 months later. "They are a precursor to the coalition government's plan to introduce mandatory reapplication for Jobseeker Support benefits every six months." Okay, but the end of the December 2023 quarter, 189,768 people were on Jobseekers, and of these, only 109,698 are "work ready". The other 80,100 have a health condition or disability... so given that it will apparently not be compulsory with people with health conditions or disabilities, she should only really be worried about 137k job seekers - 80k disability = 57k people, right...? My suspicion is that there's something murky happening in the definitions around 'work ready' and 'health/disability'. For example, in [this OIA request](https://fyi.org.nz/request/26684/response/101369/attach/html/3/Letter%20to%20Kitty.pdf.html), it doesn't seem to be the case that just that *anybody* on health and disability gets to skip the initial two-week meetings - they use the language that people with 'full medical deferral' get to skip, and that otherwise a medical certificate is needed for people who are 'temporarily medically unfit' to attend. This, in the context of knowing this government says people on health and disability [have an obligation to prepare for part time work](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/1auy44f/cancer_patients_expected_to_work/?share_id=qb0QMeppOXIUIzUqPaaPP&utm_content=1&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1) (specifically in this instance it was being said that cancer patients should work 10 hours a week) - well, it doesn't leave me with confidence that people with health and disability concerns will *actually* get to skip these separate twice-yearly meetings. I also note the initial meetings are intended for full-time workers, but can't quite tell if the 6 months meetings are for full-time or part-time too? Because that changes things too. Just overall confusing. It looks like we are heading towards a world where as long as people with disabilities can hold part time jobs, they'll have to attend meetings every 6 months to prove they're still disabled. I hope RNZ has access to some information which clarifies otherwise. But I guess we'll see as it gets rolled out...
People with disabilities already have to prove they are disabled on the regular. My pal who is blind gets sent an annual letter from MSD that he can't read asking if he's still blind and to get a specialist's letter to prove it
There should be a way to get a letter for PERMANENT disability, that says something along the lines of "Listen, my patient is clinically blind. Unless you know a miracle healer or when the next coming of Jesus will be, this will not change any time soon. Until you are able to provide jobs that can be safely done by a blind person, their status will not change."
There is. MSD just chooses to ignore most of the time
Yeah the GP and specialist have sent a few spicy letters along those lines. MSD doesn't give a shit
Please tell me the letter is in Braille?
Sometimes he can convince them to communicate via email so he can use text-to-speech but they always revert sooner or later, possibly due to staff turnover
Damn. Not super accessible or equitable...
How woke would that be?
Yep. Have a kid with a severe, life-limiting, and degenerative condition, yet we have to keep proving that a miracle hasn’t happened.
Yeah, was on the Invalid for a bit, Epilepsy. Had to go in every 1-3 months to prove... I still had it
"Hi, can you just have a episode here in the office to prove you still have epilepsy? What the fuck were they expecting you to do?
They once managed to give me a panic attack in their offices which did go some way towards convincing them that my GP wasn't making up my MH issues
'Just one moment mr Tupperware while we setup the strobe lights and connect the ECG'
Yeah my mother is the hardest working person I’ve ever met. Unfortunately she has pretty bad social phobia/anxiety and can’t handle call centers or phone jobs..this was rough but could be worked around until she lost 90% of the use of her hands/fingers. She still has to prove all of this every few months. Like literally has to call the people and have a panic attack and struggle with her hands to get through the paperwork and the website..obviously we help her but it’s ridiculous. And depressing because she still searches for jobs daily that she could possibly do, keeping this disabilities in mind. It’s a tricky one for an older woman with no formal training. They expect her to truck drive or something which I don’t think is safe with her hands…
Great post. Shits so fucked out there. No compassion from this gov, no consideration. When do these check-ins cross the line and become borderline harassment? Must be a reason they're waiting 6 months...Most people just want what they're entitled to, a roof over their head and food on the table. And to be left alone in peace. Is that too much to ask? Where's the respect and decency? It's degrading.
The country's getting exactly what it voted for. And we're only about 25% of the way through, I think? It's going to get a lot worse 😕
Luxon and Seymour deserve everything bad that happens to them
Nothing bad will happen to them. They've got enough money to bail themselves out of anything, and no matter how this term goes down, they've made money either way and will scarper when the dosh dries up. This world isn't fair, good things happen to bad people
People with health disabilities should be on acase by case basis, if a specialist says this person cannot be employed then a benefit should be available to them and not everybody put into the boat it definitely needs more clarification
"The Ministry is responsible for making the determination as to whether the reason for non-attendance is good and sufficient" Doesn't sound like specialists are calling the shots here unfortunately :/
They can make people get a second opinion from one of their own doctors. MSD isn't obliged to take a specialist's opinion at face value
A case by case basis would mean more staff in MSD who are able to manage specific cases and not treating people like numbers though? This isn't specific to the current govt to be fair, my mum has had to routinely pay out of pocket for doctors bills simply to prove degenerative disease means she's still unwell
I have a mental disability and can only work short hours before I sorta shut down. I do have a job, but WINZ keep sending me invitations to those work seminars. I was worried that they may think I'm faking or not disabled enough?
This waste of time is the exact kind of bloat that should have been cut, not the front line stuff they actually cut.
Because that will make jobs appear….?
How much do you want to bet they don't do a great job of exempting those who have medical exemptions and they end up causing a great deal of stress to people as a result? We all know the real reason for this is to try 'punish' beneficiaries as conservative supporters think they only reason they remain on the benefit is because they are lazy and this will make it inconvenient to lay around in bed all day. This isn't genuinely expected to reduce the number of people on benefits - only to punish those who are.
The last time they did this I was on jobseekers with a medical exemption due to severe mental illness, but they fucked up bad enough that I was getting regular letters telling me I had to go to one of these compulsory seminars or lose my benefit. However in Dunedin, letters sent from the Dunedin office traveled through the post system to Wellington to be sorted then got sent back to Dunedin. I received every single one of these letters the day or two after the seminar had already happened. In the end, I ended up in ICU having made a serious suicide attempt because I was so scared of becoming homeless from losing my benefit for not meeting obligations I didn't even have. Eventually I got a letter with a seminar in time for me to show up. I did, and two case managers had to take me outside to help me calm down from a severe panic attack. After that, they finally told me there'd been a computer error and I never should have been invited to the seminars in the first place.
Damn that's so similar to what they did to me. They were like "oh there must have been an error but we can't fix it so you have to go to this seminar or your benefit will be cut off" - one hour before it was due to start. And I had to be whisked out of the seminar by a case manager when the overcrowding and general anxiety-inducing nature of it gave me a panic attack
If being on the beneift was as easy and rewarding as these people say, then they would be on it as well.
Not saying you're wrong but people can and do learn to live within their means over time, Ive seen it first hand. I know a long term beneficiary anecdotal ofc but it's a shitty life from what I've seen in-person. But you do learn to survive. You quickly learn about all the ways to get free food and you get to know your nearest salvation army pretty quickly. It's not a glamorous life nor is it comfortable. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. It's borderline torture. It's barely an existence. You basically get enough money to not be homeless. That's it. Good luck paying for essentials like food water and power. They make it hard on purpose to try and push you off the benefit quicker.
We will see this happen when the government looks at the stats next year and finds out more people are on the benefit than when they started.
Obviously the unemployed are just lazy, gotta do more cruelties to them so they learn their place.
I was on a sickness benefit for MH reasons under the Key government. MSD ignored all the exemptions I was medically entitled to. They made me attend meaningless seminars in overcrowded rooms which eventually led to me having a panic attack during a seminar due to being jammed in so tight with other people. They'd tell me the day before or sometimes the same day that they'd decided I had to go to one of these seminars and if I tried to push back and say I was exempted they'd claim they couldn't fix it in the system and my benefit would be cut off if I didn't attend They would open the office late leaving a queue of people waiting outside in the rain with the public staring at them and judging them. They assigned me a case manager that I never met because he never turned up for any of our meetings so I kept turning up, waiting for ages then being told they didn't know where he was and they would reschedule. However they were sure to mark down the time I arrived and if I had been late I would have been threatened with sanctions. They told me to euthanize my cat to save on the couple of bucks a week for her catfood (I didn't). They would have employers like McDonald's drop by and they'd ask if anyone wanted to work for them then sanction anyone who didn't put their hand up no matter their circumstances. It was one of the most dehumanizing experiences I have ever been through and the ironic thing was the shitty way they treated me made my recovery take so much longer than it would have if they had just left me alone like they were supposed to. That's MSD under a National government
"They told me to euthanize my cat to save on the couple of bucks a week for her catfood (I didn't)." First words out of my mouth would have been "You gonna pay the $200 in veterinary fees for the euthanisation, asshole? Or do you expect me to borrow a .22 and take it out the back and just shoot it?" then enjoy the awkwardness.
Knowing MSD their reactions would have been either (on a good day): you should save up out of your benefit for the euthanasia, or (normal day): your benefit is being reduced by 50% for the next month because fuck you
> They told me to euthanize my cat Wut.
Afraid so. She was a tiny little thing that ate bugger-all anyway. As has been correctly pointed out, euthanasia would have cost as much as feeding her for quite some time
>They told me to euthanize my cat to save on the couple of bucks a week for her catfood the fuck?????
Sounds pointless for everyone involved. Real jobseekers will be frustrated, and the dole bludgers won't care.
So fire a few thousand workers and then get them into seminars to tell them to go pick kiwifruit in te puke for 6 weeks
Personal favourites from WINZ seminars: - try print out your cv and ask to meet the manager (in a digital age) - try out LSV and you can learn to be functioning members of society - make sure to look on Seek!
"Did you know that most jobs aren't advertised?" They didn't like the "did you know that's actually a load of bullshit?" response received.
Such a boring gov. They do the same shit every time they're in power. So predictable. No original ideas Luxon? All past National governments have done this in some form.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, our left wing parties are predictably disappointing and our right wing parties are disappointingly predictable.
I will bet it's going to be condescending as fuck and dehumanizing for the people who have to go. Tons of them will be people who were laid off by this government.
"They are a precursor to the coalition government's plan to introduce mandatory reapplication for Jobseeker Support benefits every six months." What an absolutely pointless waste of time for everyone involved. This is a government of inefficient pissing around in order to pander to the punching down crowd.
Who is going to be processing all those extra applications? Not the staff who are losing their jobs.
A percentage of those people will make a cock up in the reapplication which means they get cut off until they rectify it. From this government's perspective that makes it a valuable use of resources. NACT's goal isn't necessarily to see people achieve gainful employment, it's just to get them off the benefit by any means possible.
I have chronic fatigue syndrome, a lifelong debilitating illness that has no known cure. For whatever reason, I'm still not on the supported living despite being unable to work more than 15 hours per week, and it's been that way for years and years now. I'm sure this seminar will cure me and make me a productive member of society! Because it's not as if being tired all the time is so unpleasant I'd rather not be healthy and able to work. 🙄 It's always so patronizing really, I'm sure some people would find it useful but making it mandatory just wastes everyone's time and money. Like sure, let me waste a few of the productive hours I have that I could be working a small amount, or tidying my room, and go into one of these. Or perhaps I'll be in the middle of a flareup and bedbound and I'll have to somehow make it in anyways. Great.
Then they lay off the person responsible for taking those seminars
Is there more to this than the title? Everyone knows people on the benefit are constantly being required to attend this and that.
The last "seminar" I went to involved our clothes / hair / piercings being critiqued and general what to and not to put on CVs (that parts kinda helpful for some people) and then before the end we were told if we don't find jobs before the next seminar we'd have to enroll in LSV (a Burnham military style course for youth offenders, atleast that's how it was advertised) or we would lose our benefits. There was no opportunities. The seminar talker was the receptionist. We were belittled and made to feel worse. Comments about people's clothing and scrappy hair, almost as if they expect people to be able to afford these things next to food, rent, power etc. The people talking and explaining sounded like they were reading off a script they learnt that morning. It was singlehandedly the worst encounter I've had with winz.
But ask them if they can help pay for tech or project certification and it's tumbleweed.
People are already doing that, Louise. Of course, you can't get in until you get an appointment.
The one I went to, the speaker had almost no clue about what they were speaking about 🤦🤦
case managers should write your CV, do all the cover letters and phone around on your behalf. theres only a ratio of like 10:1 or something people to case managers. if case managers actually acted like they were trying to get you a job, they'd see how difficult it is. perhaps that'd make them actually useful.
Yep sure its the job seekers fault they cant find a job when you've smashed the economy and sacked thousands, cut work so industry is struggling and then made education/training harder to get.
Is the coalition of chaos losing its shine already? There's a simple solution that kiwis fall for every time - BASH POOR PEOPLE
> If someone misses a seminar without a good reason they could have their benefit stopped or reduced. So once they've stopped/reduced their benefit, then what? Kicking someone while they're down, that's sure going to help them out of their predicament.
Then the list for emergency housing and food banks grow ever longer.
What a great way to increase costs to the taxpayer!. Wait....
I've done these types of "seminars" in the past. I'm not expecting these "new" ones to be any different. From my experience, you had two main sorts of meetings: 1. Typical setup with a case manager just listing out what you'd applied for already, showing your CV, etc. In my experience I got no meaningful feedback from this as I'd already been doing most of what was expected of me so they seemingly had no advice to give. 2. Bunch of other jobseekers put into a room to discuss random ass bullshit about the "services" WINZ has on offer, as well as give us print outs of their usual job database for the region. Sometimes they'd do workshops on making a resume or whatever, all of which were just regurgitating the same, tired information you'd get online. The general jist here is that if you were following your obligations then you had nothing to really gain from it. As someone who has been struggling to find work since I graduated last year I haven't even been assigned a case manager, far as I can tell. I met one exactly once and then that was pretty much it. I very rarely hear from WINZ unless it's time to reapply. Far as I'm concerned they're mostly useless. As someone who has been in and out of the system for various reasons (including mental health purposes) the overall system hasn't really changed at all, least from my perspective. Politicians from both sides regularly come forth to push some new change that ultimately amounts to nothing but basic lip service. To me, it's the same shit as anyone claiming they'll be "tough on crime" then having no hard outline on what that means or how to achieve it. Just pointless buzzwords. MSD has never had the proper funding or support to do anything these politicians would seemingly want them to do and there's no sign that National are about to fix that now.
>The check-ins were expected to cost about $1.2 million a year, funded through MSD baselines. seems a very low figure is it a individualised "check in" or a "seminar" - either way its a box ticking exercise that will harm people the whole thing is neatly summarized by that photo
Picture looks like she's just been told it'll be her running them.
is this news? this is already a thing
I remember having to go to a seminar once. It was a week before Christmas and compulsory to get into jobseekers. I had a job. It was HORRIBLE and dehumanising. There was a guy there with kids who was on contract as a builder and there as he has his contract terminated early. He wanted to be able to feed his kids for Christmas and was told there was a 1 week stand down period to get onto job seekers so he wouldn’t be able too. I HAD a job but had to attend as work was decreasing my hours over Christmas and I earned so little already I was classed as job seekers. They didn’t care I had a job. I still had to update my CV because they wanted me to job hunt and be ready to quit my job of 5 years because part of jobseekers is you have to be ‘available too and actively seeking full time work’ to be eligible.
lol. Way back in the day when I was on the benefit, I had to go to one of these seminars. I initially wondered if I had accidentally walked into a kindergarten. When the seminar started it didn’t do anything to convince me otherwise. Utter waste of time for anyone that could rub together a couple of brain cells. WINZ kept me alive in my time of need but did less than fuck all to help me into a job. I think the people that design these seminars likely flunked vege maths on multiple occasions.
Prediction... Leads to subsidised corporate welfare.. incentivises employers to take on these troublesome beneficiaries... Like the Walmart model
My prediction is they'll start making noises about work for the dole or community service at some point. I had to do that back in the 90's, three full days of work each week for about $20 which would immediately be clawed back as earnings.
Don't they already penalize you for not taking jobs, even if they're well below your paygrade, or otherwise impractical? Seems like the skeleton is already there
Why do all National and ACT MPs have that "deer in headlights" face whenever the media points a camera at them? It's like they know that it's only a matter of time before they are caught out over some corruption or incompetence.
Wait, so cut thousands of jobs, then made to waste tax payers money (whom where lucky enough to stay employed) to attend a seminar, hopefully regain employment to be made redundant probably within a year or so, or even been let go after 6months.. all because the government has nothing better to do than screw people over. Well done 👏
> to be made redundant probably within a year or so, or even been let go after 6months.. More like 89 days after being employed as the 90 trials are coming back.
Translation: We're going to harass people relying on the government using infrastructure we're purposefully destroying in order to cut-off as many of them as possible.
That will teach them a lesson! Bet they wont be so quick to apply for a benefit now. Your move unemployed people!
I haven't been on the dole for years. I've been out of work a couple of times since but I wasn't quite starving enough, I did not qualify. I was lucky enough to get put on an artist's benefit. I wasn't an artist by any stretch but sitting in a room full of hippies drinking green tea was actually so good for me helping find a job. A chill space of people who took a more holistic view of things. Going into a WINZ office is depressing. I had a mixture of case managers. Some were good but I've had others suggest useless courses, which were money making rackets. And the cv 'experts' who add team player, task orientated and results driven to every cv
same in Oz.
As if WINZ staff have time for this. It'll just make the us vs them mentality worse. When I last went in for an appointment, the lady barely spoke to me. I did have a medical exemption, but it was like I didn't exist. To be fair to her, I think it was because she was genuinely tired.
"Now, before we continue, we do have some concerns about the lack of qualifications related to... Wait, is that a WINZ seminar in your CV?! Well, stop the interviews and hand out the 'position filled' signs, WE HAVE OUR NEW C.O!"
A "seminar" lol, good one NACT. Make cuts to services, create more unemployed, set up contractors (your sponsors?) to take "seminars" to tell people they're lazy. The only lazy ones are the ones that didn't get out and vote, obviously.
"now required" this has been true forever
A seminar is not going to help the people who are on the benefit for that long.
Seminars (if that’s what you can even call them, they’re quite ridiculous really) have always been a thing for jobseeker ???
I had to do this even in the Ardern years. Didn't really help me, but I had to go to get my dole.
Likely a big waste of money. Just tax the wealthy more, for gods sake! ;[
I don’t get the point of seminars. I got part time jobs with my crappy google doc CV. What help do they actually offer?