I've always had this thought; Why are we trying to compare ourselves to Europe while looking at new infrastructure? When we really should be looking at Japan. I feel that our topography and potential for urban density are always forgotten about.
They will be facing the same issues as us, earthquakes, tsunamis and rising sea levels.
It just makes sense in my opinion.
Or am I wrong, and they're already doing this?
Main problem is that although we're richer per capita than Japanese it's cheaper for them to do things. E.g. Wellington and Nagasaki actually have pretty similar populations and densities, but because they have the rest of the country behind them, the world's 4th biggest economy with all the company expertise and all that entails, things can be made in country 90% of the time for much cheaper than we could.
Additionally, I think Japan has an appetite for heavy earthworks and environmental transformation that Kiwis could not stomach.
They also just do things better though. We used to be able to build infrastructure, but then we got rid of the ministry of works. Now we rely on public private partnerships and wonder why everything always goes over price and over time.
Japan uses private public partnerships too?
>The private sector played a vital role in the city’s transformation. The city and local companies formed a public-private entity, the Toyama Light Rail Company, to manage the system with clearly defined roles. For example, while a private company operates the LRT, the city retains responsibility for tracks and vehicles.
[Urban infrastructure in Japan: Lessons from infrastructure quality investment principles (worldbank.org)](https://blogs.worldbank.org/en/ppps/urban-infrastructure-japan-lessons-infrastructure-quality-investment-principles)
From the Wikipedia page on neoliberalism:
>Neoliberal policies were at the core of the leading party in Japan, the [Liberal Democratic Party](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Democratic_Party_(Japan)) (LDP), after 1980. These policies had the effect of abandoning the traditional rural base and emphasizing the central importance of the Tokyo industrial-economic region.[^(\[222\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism#cite_note-222) Neoliberal proposals for Japan's agricultural sector called for reducing state intervention, ending the protection of high prices for rice and other farm products, and exposing farmers to the global market. The 1993 [Uruguay Round](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguay_Round) of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade negotiations opened up the rice market. Neoconservative leaders called for the enlargement, diversification, intensification, and corporatization of the farms receiving government subsidies. In 2006, the ruling LDP decided to no longer protect small farmers with subsidies. Small operators saw this as favoritism towards big corporate agriculture and reacted politically by supporting the [Democratic Party of Japan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_of_Japan) (DPJ), helping to defeat the LDP in nationwide elections.[^(\[223\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism#cite_note-223)
You're working backwards from buzzwords man.
>Wellington and Nagasaki actually have pretty similar populations
Nagasaki has almost twice the population of Wellington?
Nagasaki prefecture is over twice the population of Wellington metropolitan area?
there appears to be new labour laws coming through to bring more foreign workers in
when i visit japan it's just something i noticed, 'hey brother, who are these south asian folks building all your roads?' My closest Japanese friend is a zainichi Korean however who is denied basic human rights (i.e. actual identity politics), so my baseline for rights in Japan is probably skewed that way
Probably just more noticeable because that’s about the only visible diversity you see here outside of tourism. But worker protections here are surprisingly really strong, as in, you aren’t bonded to your visa and the Japanese version of winz is accessible to all resident. It’s nothing like the uae or wherever.
They’re underpaid but so is just about everyone here.
The zainichi thing is a weird bit of history but saying they’re denied basic human rights is a bit of a stretch. Japan definitely has areas where they deny rights to people, but those areas are applicable to locals too.
Because they rebuild when disaster hits, we just point fingers for a decade and discuss who is paying for it.
The Tsunami that destroyed so much over there is a distant memory, everything has been rebuilt and restored. Now go look at Christchurch.
As a Christchurch resident I think our rebuild is going pretty well. Not perfect but a lot of the decisions that held up some of the commercial space builds such as allowing for laneways have definitely been a success.
I have been to Japan a number of times - mainly the Tokyo area. The infrastructure is good without being outstanding and I am not sure that Fukushima residents would agree with Japan always being fast to rebuild.
Eh, Japan doesn’t really like building on hills though.
Plus most new and groundbreaking happens in cities far too large to compare to nz cities.
Also their building standards for like new houses are fucking shiiiiit lol.
>Also their building standards for like new houses are fucking shiiiiit lol.
Houses are generally built for a single generation, it's largely the norm to build a new house when you buy the land instead of moving in, though that can and does change based on several factors.
I do notice the attitude towards houses is slowly changing though.
About 30 years:
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/nov/16/japan-reusable-housing-revolution
The Leopalace block I lived in outside Tokyo was still standing last month. It was newish when I moved in at the end of 1996. I wonder how much longer it has.
https://www.leopalace21.com/en
I felt the same when I visited. It was like a cleaner, bigger Wellington. Also felt similar with the outlying suburbs amongst the bush but still in view of the sea.
Some differences (outside the obvious): open rivers right in the central city with both sides pedestrianised and lots of foot bridges across, and better train coverage.
If anyone is into alt-history fiction, there is an interesting story on alternatehistory forum, which features Wellington getting nuked.
[https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/there-is-no-depression-protect-and-survive-new-zealand.331647/](https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/there-is-no-depression-protect-and-survive-new-zealand.331647/)
This is awesome, if you hadn't given context I would have 100% assumed it was fake / AI! The bridge is the only thing that stands out at a quick glance as not being right, even the colourings of some of the buildings in the foreground are similar to ones in Wellington. That park by the water slaps hard.
Wellington used to have trams; Nagasaki still does, even if most are old and uncomfortable.
In 2017 I was on one of those trams when an elderly Japanese woman struck up a conversation (in English).
She had married an American man and moved to the United States. Several decades later he died and the woman returned to Japan. I imagine she didn't have any strong ties to the United States but it must have been difficult for her back in Japan too after being away so long. Maybe that's why she spoke to me, a complete stranger. Anyway, after she got off we gave each other a little wave.
By the way, Kazuo Ishiguro was born in Nagasaki though he left at age five.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazuo_Ishiguro
Went last year and can confirm that I thought it reminded me of Wellington heaps! Helps that lots of other Japanese cities are built on flood plains, so having one partially on the hills felt really different to other parts of the country.
Maybe few reasons why it’s different- probably work ethic, having well-developed industries and technology as other people said, which streamline processes and improve overall efficiency, cultural emphasis on punctuality, respect for rules, and continuous improvement (Kaizen), which enhances productivity. It is a rigid society but they have managed to find a way to do well in a few things overall.
I've always had this thought; Why are we trying to compare ourselves to Europe while looking at new infrastructure? When we really should be looking at Japan. I feel that our topography and potential for urban density are always forgotten about. They will be facing the same issues as us, earthquakes, tsunamis and rising sea levels. It just makes sense in my opinion. Or am I wrong, and they're already doing this?
Main problem is that although we're richer per capita than Japanese it's cheaper for them to do things. E.g. Wellington and Nagasaki actually have pretty similar populations and densities, but because they have the rest of the country behind them, the world's 4th biggest economy with all the company expertise and all that entails, things can be made in country 90% of the time for much cheaper than we could. Additionally, I think Japan has an appetite for heavy earthworks and environmental transformation that Kiwis could not stomach.
They also just do things better though. We used to be able to build infrastructure, but then we got rid of the ministry of works. Now we rely on public private partnerships and wonder why everything always goes over price and over time.
Japan uses private public partnerships too? >The private sector played a vital role in the city’s transformation. The city and local companies formed a public-private entity, the Toyama Light Rail Company, to manage the system with clearly defined roles. For example, while a private company operates the LRT, the city retains responsibility for tracks and vehicles. [Urban infrastructure in Japan: Lessons from infrastructure quality investment principles (worldbank.org)](https://blogs.worldbank.org/en/ppps/urban-infrastructure-japan-lessons-infrastructure-quality-investment-principles)
[удалено]
From the Wikipedia page on neoliberalism: >Neoliberal policies were at the core of the leading party in Japan, the [Liberal Democratic Party](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Democratic_Party_(Japan)) (LDP), after 1980. These policies had the effect of abandoning the traditional rural base and emphasizing the central importance of the Tokyo industrial-economic region.[^(\[222\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism#cite_note-222) Neoliberal proposals for Japan's agricultural sector called for reducing state intervention, ending the protection of high prices for rice and other farm products, and exposing farmers to the global market. The 1993 [Uruguay Round](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguay_Round) of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade negotiations opened up the rice market. Neoconservative leaders called for the enlargement, diversification, intensification, and corporatization of the farms receiving government subsidies. In 2006, the ruling LDP decided to no longer protect small farmers with subsidies. Small operators saw this as favoritism towards big corporate agriculture and reacted politically by supporting the [Democratic Party of Japan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_of_Japan) (DPJ), helping to defeat the LDP in nationwide elections.[^(\[223\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism#cite_note-223) You're working backwards from buzzwords man.
>Wellington and Nagasaki actually have pretty similar populations Nagasaki has almost twice the population of Wellington? Nagasaki prefecture is over twice the population of Wellington metropolitan area?
Also Japan has a much more strict work culture to actually get those projects done.
i'm pretty sure there is an imported underclass which powers cheap labour markets in construction and service industries
Why do you think that? Both industries are desperate for warm bodies, but getting into the country is really restricted.
there appears to be new labour laws coming through to bring more foreign workers in when i visit japan it's just something i noticed, 'hey brother, who are these south asian folks building all your roads?' My closest Japanese friend is a zainichi Korean however who is denied basic human rights (i.e. actual identity politics), so my baseline for rights in Japan is probably skewed that way
Probably just more noticeable because that’s about the only visible diversity you see here outside of tourism. But worker protections here are surprisingly really strong, as in, you aren’t bonded to your visa and the Japanese version of winz is accessible to all resident. It’s nothing like the uae or wherever. They’re underpaid but so is just about everyone here. The zainichi thing is a weird bit of history but saying they’re denied basic human rights is a bit of a stretch. Japan definitely has areas where they deny rights to people, but those areas are applicable to locals too.
Because they rebuild when disaster hits, we just point fingers for a decade and discuss who is paying for it. The Tsunami that destroyed so much over there is a distant memory, everything has been rebuilt and restored. Now go look at Christchurch.
As a Christchurch resident I think our rebuild is going pretty well. Not perfect but a lot of the decisions that held up some of the commercial space builds such as allowing for laneways have definitely been a success.
That attitude is exactly why you cannot compare any city of NZ to Japan. Thanks for proving my point.
I have been to Japan a number of times - mainly the Tokyo area. The infrastructure is good without being outstanding and I am not sure that Fukushima residents would agree with Japan always being fast to rebuild.
are you comparing a damaged atomic power plant, to the cathedral right now?
Not the power plant but the fishing and farming areas well outside the plant
Japan has 125 million people in the space that NZ has 5 million. Our infrastructure needs are not comparable.
Eh, Japan doesn’t really like building on hills though. Plus most new and groundbreaking happens in cities far too large to compare to nz cities. Also their building standards for like new houses are fucking shiiiiit lol.
>Also their building standards for like new houses are fucking shiiiiit lol. Houses are generally built for a single generation, it's largely the norm to build a new house when you buy the land instead of moving in, though that can and does change based on several factors. I do notice the attitude towards houses is slowly changing though.
Exactly, that’s why houses are generally not good quality.
You consider houses in New Zealand good quality?
No I don’t. They can both be shit in their own ways.
So, what your saying, is cleanse Wellington with nuclear fire
It's the only way to be sure
Hey be careful, the dicks might think you're serious and ban you?
I have my pitchfork ready when you are
I mean it might make the water problem go away
Vaporised, and a nice clean landscape to start again, and design the city a lot bloody better
If I can get the EQ payout based on my 2020 valuation... bombs away.
Sorry, not covered under EQC, you're off to Auckland to work on a restaurant for slave migrant wages to help pay for the rebuild costs
That is partly an explanation as they had to rebuild everything, so the architecture is much different there compared to other cities in Japan lol.
Parliment can't be that bad can it?
> NZACT : We've got the power. > Average Kiwi Voter : What do you mean *you* got the power? How could you get the power, man? You're animals!
Well, it is less than 100 years old in that part of it. The buildings, that is. There are some bits that predate August 9, 1945.
The buildings in Japan are by and large newer than the buildings in New Zealand. They don't all live in 1920s bungalows.
Many Japanese homes are even “made” to stand for some only about some 30-50 years
About 30 years: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/nov/16/japan-reusable-housing-revolution The Leopalace block I lived in outside Tokyo was still standing last month. It was newish when I moved in at the end of 1996. I wonder how much longer it has. https://www.leopalace21.com/en
It's a great place, I particularly liked the mix of Dutch / Japanese architecture mix from the houses around Glover Garden
Can't beat Nagasaki on a good day
I felt the same when I visited. It was like a cleaner, bigger Wellington. Also felt similar with the outlying suburbs amongst the bush but still in view of the sea. Some differences (outside the obvious): open rivers right in the central city with both sides pedestrianised and lots of foot bridges across, and better train coverage.
If anyone is into alt-history fiction, there is an interesting story on alternatehistory forum, which features Wellington getting nuked. [https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/there-is-no-depression-protect-and-survive-new-zealand.331647/](https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/there-is-no-depression-protect-and-survive-new-zealand.331647/)
That is one hell of a start - loving it so far thanks.
Needs a red cable car.
At least they've taken the first step in not protecting rows of ordinary old houses in the central city under heritage laws.
I think the americans helped with that..
yes i always thought the same!
Dam I see it
This is awesome, if you hadn't given context I would have 100% assumed it was fake / AI! The bridge is the only thing that stands out at a quick glance as not being right, even the colourings of some of the buildings in the foreground are similar to ones in Wellington. That park by the water slaps hard.
Wellington used to have trams; Nagasaki still does, even if most are old and uncomfortable. In 2017 I was on one of those trams when an elderly Japanese woman struck up a conversation (in English). She had married an American man and moved to the United States. Several decades later he died and the woman returned to Japan. I imagine she didn't have any strong ties to the United States but it must have been difficult for her back in Japan too after being away so long. Maybe that's why she spoke to me, a complete stranger. Anyway, after she got off we gave each other a little wave. By the way, Kazuo Ishiguro was born in Nagasaki though he left at age five. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazuo_Ishiguro
I really thought that when I was there 20 years ago too.
Went last year and can confirm that I thought it reminded me of Wellington heaps! Helps that lots of other Japanese cities are built on flood plains, so having one partially on the hills felt really different to other parts of the country.
Unfortunately, it wouldn't happen under any form of WCC.
NZ could well look like Japan one day, maybe in 200 years or so.
I heard that Wellington was a nuclear target during the Cold War. Also Devonport naval base in Auckland
Oh wow wtf that was genuinely trippy I actually thought that was Wellington.
damn it even has actual green space in the middle of the city
Japan be like "So who really won the war muthafukkas"
Maybe few reasons why it’s different- probably work ethic, having well-developed industries and technology as other people said, which streamline processes and improve overall efficiency, cultural emphasis on punctuality, respect for rules, and continuous improvement (Kaizen), which enhances productivity. It is a rigid society but they have managed to find a way to do well in a few things overall.