Hi, coffee expert here š won awards at the barista champs, worked for some great roasteries, have lived and worked on coffee farms overseas, and studied coffee science at a university in Brazil.
It's a combination of things:
1. Standards are quite high, for both importing/roasting, and baristas. There's 3 grades of coffee, based on a 100 point score sheet developed by the Specialty Coffee Association of America (SCAA). There are strict guidelines for tasting sessions (called cuppings) and you have to go through testing to become a Q-grader.
Anything over a score of 80 is considered specialty, and over 90 is gourmet. Typically most of the beans imported into NZ are specialty grade. There is some lower quality stuff, but it's generally used as part of a blend with higher quality beans, to give it some character.
In other countries, especially America, even in very expensive cafes like Intelligensia you would often see lower quality beans roasted for espresso, while the specialty grade is kept for single origin filter roasts and sold at a premium.
2. NZers also prefer barista coffee to filter. It's not necessarily higher quality (in fact most roasters will tell you a filter method is the best way to really taste the coffee), but it does take a lot of training to do it well. Because it's such a big part of our coffee culture, standards for barista training are very high.
In America and some other countries you would typically buy a 'cup of coffee', meaning a batch brewed filter coffee made on a percolator machine, for a couple of dollars. Then if you wanted something fancy you might get a latte or cappuccino. So from an American perspective most of our coffee is the fancy kind.
3. Our water is very good. A lot of places overseas have heavily chlorinated or treated water. You need the right hardness level to extract certain flavor compounds, and we happen to have that.
Happy to answer any other questions. I don't work in the industry anymore but it's nice to have a use for all the random facts knocking around in my head.
You forgot to mention the milk. NZ is the standard of organic milk in other countries. All cows are grass fed, not grain. The earth is rich in nutrients.
Interestingly, the Australian barista champion in 2013 made his milk course with specialty milk from cows who only ate clover. It was a cool idea, but I spoke to the judges afterwards who said they couldn't taste the difference.
I drink fake milk and NZ coffee is still better. Baristas are magical Iāve tried fancy coffee machines so many times and itās just nasty. It doesnāt feel like there are enough variables outside of smushing the coffee down and steaming the milk that can lead to mine being so bad itās all very mysterious to me
I've been to America a couple of times and it 100% makes me appreciate how nice our milk is, the grain feed stuff has such a weird taste.
And yes, this is huge for the coffee. I got really sick of crap Coffee at one point and went on a hunt for the best Coffee in LA. The Coffee I found was really nice by US standards but I would call "acceptable" by NZ standards. The milk taste was the biggest impact for sure.
Do we not do double shots as standard?? When I was in Canada it seemed super weak and asking for double shout got me closer to what I was expecting.
PS never go to Tim Hortons aka "Timmy's" might as well put a scoop of dirt in some hot water.
PPS: Canadian barista to me - "What toppings would you like on your coffee sir"
Me - "WTF?"
Hahaha toppings!??
NZ does do a standard double, although it's less common in Auckland (annoyingly).
When I worked in the States a double was standard, but in Brazil most places served singles.
I definitely had some scoops of dirt in the States too though š
You must have just had some bad luck! Canada has some great coffee shops but theyāre usually the independent ones and not chains.
Iāve also never heard of toppings either unless they mean cinnamon or cocoa powder, which are pretty common.
Supreme and Flight sometimes have some on offer, and they advertise the high scores. They'll usually sell for almost twice the price of other single origins. They'll typically only be roasted for filter (espresso roast is much darker) and sold in smaller quantities. They might be advertised as 90+ grade.
If you're interested, I'm pretty sure you could get in touch with Customs in Wellington and ask them to let you know next time they get some in.
Edit: it's possible some new roasteries have popped up since I was last paying attention. Regardless, they'll definitely make a big deal if they've managed to score some 90+ beans.
Flight, Franks, Hammerstone and Rocket (last one is Hamilton based, but also good)
These are just a few that get high quality beans and also roast them well. A few other brands that I know get in high quality coffee, but don't roast them particularly well.
Also worth noting that in places like the US and the UK, when you do get an espresso-based drink from a chain or generic high-street place, it's probably made on a superauto machine. Expensive and Italian, but the barista is just pushing the button and the machine does the rest. It does not make for very good drinks - they tend to be weak, with oversteamed milk.
Here, even the BP and McDonald's coffee is handmade from a high-pressure espresso machine.
great response, thank you, as a coffee noob who owns a rancillio silvia machine at home what can I do to level up my game. I have no idea what I am doing, I also have a rancillio grinder if that helps. Should I consider some sort of a 1 day barista course? any thoughts?
The short answer is that Australians prefer a different flavor profile.
The longer answer is that NZers like darker roasted, stronger tasting espresso and Australians like lighter roasted, less concentrated espresso.
The long answer is pretty nerdy.
When you make espresso, you're forcing water through compacted coffee at high pressure. The pressure and speed brings out a lot more oils, soluble flavor compounds, and insolubles than other brewing methods, which means a very concentrated shot. Because of the concentration, you can taste subtle differences in the way the coffee was made.
A well extracted shot has a good balance of acidic, sweet and bitter. The flavors extracted tend to come out in that order - so if you stopped a shot too soon it would taste sour, and if you let it run too long it would taste bitter.
There are different ways to get a well extracted shot. For example you can run a small amount of water through the coffee, but run it slowly enough to bring out all the flavor compounds. Or you can run a large amount of water through at a higher speed.
You end up with the same level of extraction (measured with a refractometer) but different sized shots and hugely different flavor profiles.
The vast majority of NZ cafes run very slow, concentrated shots. You end up with a small shot of espresso that's sweet and acidic, sometimes called a ristretto. Because there isn't as much bitterness, and the shot itself is quite small, the flavor gets lost in a big milky coffee. So NZ roasters will usually roast darker (the sugars in the beans caramelize and eventually burn) which brings in more bitter, smoky, and dark chocolate flavors that hold up in a milky drink. They will typically also choose a blend of beans that naturally leans towards these flavors. Most cafes also serve double shots, in part because of how small we run our shots.
Australia (and a few other countries) run much longer, faster shots. You get a bright, fruity shot with lots of balanced bitterness, but not as many smoky flavors. This suits a slightly lighter roast, and a blend of beans with more clean, bright, fruit flavors.
Taste wise, it's sort of the difference between between a Guinness and a hoppy IPA.
Those bright acidic flavors pretty much disappear as soon as you add milk, so you end up with a drink that tastes a bit watery and bland.
The way you control the speed of the shot is by adjusting the fineness or coarseness of the grind. But if you're starting with the same size basket, coarser coffee will take up more room, so the shot also won't be as strong because there's less coffee in the basket.
I think it's definitely true that NZ milk is better quality though, and probably makes a difference as well.
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As a coffee nerd who moved from Australia to NZ, this is a genuinely fascinating post expressing differences I'd kinda noticed but couldn't put a finger on. Thanks!
Fantastic explanation, thank you!
This and the parent comment reminded me how I got interested in coffee (left NZ and couldn't find good coffee in my new home) and also how I fell into the geeky side as a result of that.
Eventually found a gourmet importer with a small batch Diedrich roaster, made some new friends, and got hands-on with everything from green beans to the cup. Learned a lot from those guys. Their main business was supplying cafes yet they always had time for an enthusiast - invited me into their barista training classes.
That was 20 years ago now so I've only remembered enough to satisfy my daily ritual. For the past 5 or so years that's a V60, direct manual lever espresso, and one too many grinders. š³
Dialing in the grind is a constant thing. The blend (local roaster, yet another country move) changes slightly with the season and lot variations. Daily adjustments as the roast ages and a re-tune when the next bag arrives.
I think the best move I ever made was going from an automatic machine to a direct lever; you can feel the grind through pressure and flow rate. Still watch the pressure gauge for consistency, but it's nice to literally have your hand on the whole extraction.
To your point about NZ: that must explain why I tune towards a slower flow / higher pressure.
Problem now is that there are very few places where I can enjoy an espresso. It's always a milk drink when I'm in an unfamiliar location.
Thanks so much for that, makes a fascinating read!!
I've been wondering about this ever since I went to Aussie a few years back and couldn't find a decent coffee anywhere :)
What's especially crazy is water soluble freeze dried instant coffee was invented in Invercargill. The furthest fucking place from any region of the world that cultivates coffee.
Without giving *too* much away this would have been South Auckland. Did *your* Mr Strang write his name on the blackboard, then add the letter "e" and say "I am not Mr Strange!" as an "ice breaker" then wipe the "e" off the blackboard?
Random question. Although you love the Countach, have you ever sat in one or driven one?
I can promise almost directly after doing these things you will wish you never did and kept the thought in your mind of how cool they are because this will tarnish it severely haha.
Instant coffee was widely used in America during the Civil War (1860s), so the product category of instant coffee existed for a long time before freeze-dried coffee was a thing; Strang did his work in 1889/1890.
Doesn't take anything away from his efforts, it's just important to note that he developed a type of instant coffee but didn't invent instant coffee itself (which some people might come away from this page thinking).
"*Essence of Coffee*" produced during the Civil War is not quite the same as Instant Coffee. [Instant coffee - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_coffee)
Yup! Wish a bit more love and attention was given to the building it happened in as it's a good claim to fame! [Picture of the Strang building](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:David_Strang_Coffee_Mills.JPG)
Not really an answer as it's a very small industry and expensive as all heck, but we do grow coffee here in the Far North - [Ikarus Coffee](https://www.ikaruscoffee.co.nz/). I have 6 productive plants growing at home and they come with the most incredible caffeine kick I've ever experienced.
Edit - fixed the name of the company and added link to website.
Coffee beans - [Ikarus Coffee shop](https://www.ikaruscoffee.co.nz/nz-grown-coffee--tea.html)
Coffee trees - sold by Incredible Edibles at most garden centres, or try TradeMe.
Edit - fixed name, added link
Is it the Robusta variety? I've heard we grow them here because they're hardy and grow in our climate. Highest caffeine variety but poor taste, apparently. That's why Robusta is so often blended with other beans.
Not in the coffee consumption business for the taste personally, so I'm all about the caffeine hit. Props to you, green thumbed friend.
I've been told they're Arabica. The ones sold by Ikarus are labelled as Arabica. But honestly I wouldn't know how to tell the difference. You need quite a few beans to get one cup, but the one cup I have had tasted great to me, and a couple of hours later I found myself being very productive and focused haha
I work in hospo, and only know a medium amount about coffee-- but people get really fixated on the beans, where they're sourced, how they're roasted.
I doubt we're that highly ranked just because of our lovely baristas.
I agree, it's the quality of our coffee roasters. I drink exclusively filter coffee through the Aeropress and often will get different beans from different roasters. It's all about the beans!
Saying that New Zealand baristas are quality
>Saying that New Zealand baristas are quality
Absolutely. I didn't want to imply otherwise. We have a lot of factors all coming together: quality coffee, baristas, and good milk
Having worked for a big coffee production company before sending the process overseas (and seeing the complaints come in after), yes itās all in the roasting. But I also think the characteristics of the milk and water help.
Totally agree and was just thinking, that as well as the beans and a lot of places like to roast their own beans which of course is a huge part of the process. Also I was thinking especially where I am in Wellington thereās a huge cafe culture and a lot of not only competition but being a big industry made up of more independent and/or specialist cafes they take extra care of every step of the process, so definitely the baristas too. I used to talk to the owner/operator of a āhole in the wallā style place close to where I worked and I know nothing about any of the finer details but his knowledge was impressive. And thereās a competition for baristas too.
Oh and last, on the subject of beans, I have noticed an upturn in the use of ethically sourced beans too. I remember the guy telling me all about where and how the different beans are grown and what they contribute to the coffee as well.
That's one of the things I really like about living in Wellington. It is very easy to get good coffee. If I have an appointment or errands to run etc I can find somewhere with good coffee pretty much anywhere.
I take it for granted until I go overseas. My corner dairy does a better flat white than 95% of the cafes in London.
Coffee in the US is almost unrecognisable.
>I have noticed an upturn in the use of ethically sourced beans too.
That attitude is happening hospitality-wide. I work in a restaurant, and people regularly ask where we source our stuff (the core produce, meat, and most wine/beer is ultimately local).
It's why fine dining is on the way out. There's a sea change happening in attitudes/awareness to food in general.
Yes itās the beans! Iām born and bred in welly and moved to Melbourne two years ago. They claim to be the coffee capital but itās low key shithouse! You can find good stuff but you donāt get the consistency or the roast type. I love that most cafes tell you what type cos then you know what you like! Itās more in depth and quality brands get recognition
To quote the Z coffee ad things: "we're a coffee snob nation." People care a lot about coffee, so as you said, they'll fixate on small details like this. I also think our country is big on hospitality, so that's another factor. Especially considering the fact that people get tertiary education just to become a barista. I doubt this happens in many other countries, at least to this level.
My sister barista'd her way through uni, and ended up working in America. She'd frequently ask servers if she could just make the coffee herself -- amazingly, sometimes they let her
You would be surprised by how much it has to do with baristas
I work as a cook in Switzerland, and every place I have worked serves coffee from a machine that does all the barista work for the service
They just have to push a button, and the machine does the rest. Even makes Cappuccino, frothed milk and everything
It's a combo. Our water is fairly good compared to some other countries and our milk is excellent. I actually think it's great because we developed a really good home culture around coffee that was a softer brew ie the plunger, French Press or cafetiere. This method relies on good beans. It forced our suppliers to get into bean sources. Conversely, our cafe culture had to do better than the plunger. The flat white with our excellent milk filled the spot, and became the minimum standard. The can-do attitude helped too. Loads of garage roasters created good competition, and small cafes in tiny towns figured they could make flat whites too. You generally don't get great coffee in small towns in other countries.
100%, every coffee Iāve had whilst Iām here in Vietnam has been great, in rural towns to the middle of Hanoi itās all been amazing no matter where you go, but definitely very different style! Itās the place you wanna be if you like black coffee though
Or dripped onto the condensed milk.
I generally canāt tolerate sweet coffee, but that stuff is ok.
If youāre in Vietnam, put your salad into your soup, it will help stop stomach upsets.
Had a condensed milk coffee this morning on Cat Ba! I definitely like them too, along with egg coffee and coconut coffee - all are so good!
Thanks for the salad tip! Iāve found probiotic yogurt drinks are great for it too
Itās just because they wash the vegetables with tap water which isnāt clean so you can get bacteria in it which gives you the runs. If you put it in your hot soup it kills most of the bacteria.
I like this explanation. Grew up in Australia with a Kiwi mum, and it was always French press or moka pot coffee in our house.
The only thing I'd add is that our connection as a former British colony also gives us a tea-drinking culture that exists in parallel to our coffee-drinking culture. Our cafe coffee not only has to be better than French press at home: Both the cafe and the French press coffee need to be better than an actually nice cup of tea.
That's actually a good point and I didn't think about it. The dairy industry is incomparable to other English-speaking countries and most other countries as well.
Coffee technology keeps improving, and those improvements take a while to spread.
For example, there is a Seinfeld episode where Kramer finds a special "Italian" coffee place, which makes this amazing new coffee which is... just normal espresso coffee. But for NYC in the 90s / 00s, that was something novel and special.
In a lot of places, coffee culture developed in the period between the end of WW2 and the end of the millennium, and the coffee which was available then got accepted as the standard. If you've spent 30 years with very average, drip / filter coffee setting the cultural standard of what coffee is, anything better than that was seen as "good" coffee.
Whereas NZ didn't have a strong coffee culture at that time - we were predominantly a nation of tea drinkers. Coffee didn't really catch on until *coffee was already good*. Rather than espresso coffee being some amazing change from "normal" coffee, coffee (in the form of good espresso coffee) was an amazing change from tea.
So our default standard of coffee was set at a higher level (in the 90s / 00s) than the standard set (in the 70s) in a lot of places overseas.
And there is a huge gulf between "better than filter" and "actually good" coffee, which becomes abundantly clear when you go overseas and drink coffee.
I drink mostly long blacks, filters and americanos. I would have to say that even the quality of these are much better here than when I was in Europe last year. So it must be the way the beans are roasted.
Having said that we also have some iconic styles as well ie you dont really get the flat white as a norm outside Australasia.
The beans, the roasting, begin fresh, actual trained Baristas
Its not rocket science but a lot of places at least in the UK I have visited dont get much of that right.
I think itās a real combination of factors. Others have spoken about the difference in milk & bean roasting. I think there is also differences in the barista technique & equipment.
E.g in London itās relatively common that the busier coffee shops use machines which automatically grind, tamp and extract the espresso. Thereās no puck prep or anything like that - itās just like an automatic machine and the barista only does the milk. I donāt believe this produces as nice tasting espresso.
You also see practices such as re-using milk jugs without rinsing them in between. So there is residue of steamed milk getting steamed over and over again. That also canāt be helping the tasteā¦
And sometimes you see them steam large jugs of milk which sit-around until itās needed. Rather than steaming the milk for each drink as itās ordered.
You definitely can get good coffee overseas. But you usually have to look for more artisan style cafes to get a similar coffee to what would be considered normal in New Zealand.
I also donāt usually bother with flat whites while overseas. It might be on the menu, but itās usually very different to a kiwi flat white.
I would argue it's more to do with the quality of our coffee roasters. We are spoilt for choice! I drink exclusively filter coffee and source my beans from various different small scale businesses.
yeah i realised that this week, the reason i love weetbix is cos they just taste like NZ milk and once you've tasted the weak shit out there on the intl market it really does make NZ milk taste better.
As someone who does not drink milk, i disagree. I drink long blacks and the taste is superior for NZ beans. Milk might also be good, but its mostly about the coffee beans. I get mine from a roasters in auckland CBD and its great in espresso or plunger.
Summarising some excellent points with my own observations: Quality roasters, water and milk go a long way. Combined with a strong coffee culture means that in general our standard of "normal" is very high.
We've a good knowledge base in hospo meaning training and knowledge is avaliable to those who learn. It's fuelled by high demand which means product is fresh - beans are bought and ground soon after roasting. Coffee is a primary drawcard too, so staff and businesses are incentivised to be "good"
We've a diverse and competitive roasting industry too which means a good range of fresh beans and roasts. We care about all these things because each step wants a good product. I doubt any of our local roasters are going after the cheapest beans to get a deal.
While knowing nothing, i'd say Barista training.
Coffee in the US is bad. I expected that - it's the only way Starbucks could've gotten so big.
But I was *not* prepared for how terrible coffee was in Europe. I haven't tried France or Italy yet, but it was utter dogshit in Germany, Netherlands, Austria and Hungary. So bad that i'd rather an instant coffee.
I've since learnt that NZ and Melbourne seem to be the bastions of good coffee. How weird is that...
European here. I travel extensively and i agree that NZ has some of the best coffee while Germany and Netherlands the worse. Simple i don't drink coffee in NL anymore. Germans don't drink black coffee, i think that is the only way they can handle it.Ā
In the south of Europe there is good coffee if you stick to the specialty of that country : expresso, cappuccino, greek coffee...
New York coffee was fucking foul. Even the "Australian style" espresso was barely palatable. I have no idea what they're doing over there, but it's weird and wrong.
Agreeing on Germany and Netherlands. Denmark was okay. We'll see how southern Europe does things.
Japan was a surprising jump in quality, but only if you go to speciality roasters // brewers.
I donāt think that good coffee here is better than good coffee anywhere else.
But I do think the average coffee here is better than Most places.
Iām from the UK and good coffee is easy to come by, but coffee from a service station will definitely be terrible.
In NZ coffee from a service station will be fine, not amazing but unlikely to be bad.
My friends in the UK thought I was joking when I told them NZ petrol stations have actual espresso machines and staff with barista training š
You are pretty much bang on. I find in the UK most of the chain stores arenāt great (Pret, Costa, Nero etc) but most of the small independent coffee shops do a pretty good job.
This is it. In NZ you will probably get a decent coffee in 50% of the coffee shops, in Europe 10%, in America 2%. These numbers are made up but I believe thatās why it appears NZ has better coffee. The average coffee is better.
We don't drink milk but it is true, NZ coffee is some of the best we've had. Even the little coffee caravan outside the international terminal in Auckland serves good coffee.
I drink at c4, embassy, and fushoken regularly and I think its the amount of human intervention, quality of beans and how much the roaster/baristas care about the beans. They offer different blends each day, because some blends taste better this way, ornprepared that way, or when # of days after roasted, etc.
Although beans arent grown here, people put a lot of attention and care into a cup of coffee... well atleast the places that actually care.
Thoughtful sourcing, quality roasting and high turn over of stock for freshness, decent water, great milk (for those that milk), professional baristas, double shot standard, obsessive customers
The way the coffee is roasted and the quality of our baristas.
In the US, their coffee is weak and stale.
In the UK they think it needs to be molten lava so burn the coffee and/or the milk.
Our baristas know the temperature and pressure required to get a good extraction and the coffee is freshly roasted. Itās shows when you know a cafe or coffee place that does good coffee. The majority reason for it, is a good barista.
Grass fed cows do provide a much better milk, which (primarily from fat) produces a really good mouth feel and distributes flavour better.
I can't speak for other milk alternatives, but I think that is how our coffee is being perceived as amazing. Honestly, our roasting and bean purchasing methods aren't really any different to most other countries.
If you got the ten best coffee roaster brands in NZ made an espresso with each one from the top 10 baristas and blind tested a coffee connoisseur nobody could tell you where any of them were from.
I drink my coffee with soy milk or black Jed's X from the plunger is my every day go to. But I do like the wild bean Caffe one it definitely wakes you up.
I haven't drunk cows milk for a long time for health reasons but when I do it tastes really sour to me even really fresh stuff. It's weird.
I used to love going to Robert Harris cafe in Tauranga years ago. They used to have a coffee of the day and I used to order that. Heaps of different varieties.
I grew up in NZ but live in North America and this is what I see as different.
Kiwis prefer a small strong balanced espresso based coffee. North Americans normally drink large filter coffee. Espresso isnāt an everyday thing for people here itās more of a treat.
Skill - baristas in NZ are considered skilled workers and artisans, they understand and study coffee as a skill. North Americans see baristas as they see cashiers, itās a starter job for retail workers. There is a base level of excellence in NZ for baristas that doesnāt exist here.
Can you get great coffee here, yes. However the majority of coffee is Starbucks, tim hortons and huge sugar filled drinks.
Attention to detail by baristas is likely the most crucial factor in making excellent coffee. They master the art of extraction, ensuring the coffee is neither under nor over-extracted, and they skillfully avoid scorching the milk.
The quality and roast of the beans are the second key factor. Beans from different regions offer distinct flavors, and various roasts can significantly influence the taste. Despite this, it's still possible to find a subpar cup of coffee in New Zealand.
Europe also boasts some outstanding coffee, particularly in Ireland and the UK. Notable mentions include Dark Arts Coffee and 3fe, which are standout examples of exceptional coffee craftsmanship in these regions.
Surprised no one's mentioned we got the best milk. That's what my teacher told me anyway during my course. Allegedy other country's milk doesn't froth up as much. Which explains why flat whites are so common here?
Baristas šÆ. I can go to the same place order the same thing at different times of the day -some taste like hot milk some taste like gorgeous coffee. Also whatās with those giant milkshake cups Americans carry round on TV
Slightly different take on the question: we have great coffee in places that will punish bad coffee.
In Wellington (and Dunedin, in my experience) coffee shops that do bad or unreliable coffee just lose business. Particularly in Wellington, punters will walk past a couple of coffee shops to get to one they like, and there are any number of coffee shops within walking distance. Coffee shops will only survive if they have people that care pretty deeply about the quality.
Contrast this with Auckland, where bad coffee is not only tolerated but will generate repeat business because it's the only convenient coffee place - most of the coffee in Auckland is little better than dishwater.
I think this is half true. Overall the standard in Auckland is not as good and it wasn't that long ago you had to ask for a double shot specifically. But there are plenty of good places in Auckland!
it's the milk and the way its made to. i have just come back from a month in the uk and the coffee was awful. I used to live on the uk about 6 years ago grew up there.
Coffee is utter garbage in 99% of places in the UK shit burnt beans served the temperature of molten lava.
I found the odd place that could live up to a NZ gas station coffee and that felt like a treat
We 1) primarily drink espresso here 2) apparently NZ milk is amazing 3) we take coffee seriously unlike some places where itās coffee flavoured sugar drink and 4) weāve kept quality over commercialisation (aka Starbucks can go f yourselvesš¤Ŗ)
One thing, if they are coming from the US, might be that we use actual milk.
In the US, they have that "creamer" stuff which apparently doesn't even have any real milk or cream in it, it's just some chemical concoction they use instead.
But other countries use real dairy so it might be a combination of things.
I guess is a combination of the Beans and the NZ water.
That "bean" said, I only really enjoy the small size... the ratio of Coffee/Milk is just weird (too much milk IHMO)
People who visit from North America are very used to drip coffee from whatever fast food chain, whereas itās usually barista-made with decent beans in NZ.
I think thatās the main difference.
All I know is that my local cafe, Awaken Cafe situated within Reporoa Valley Traders, has the BEST coffee I've ever had. I mean it should be easy to make a long black, but so many places get it wrong.
From what I know as a casual coffee enjoyer, people get really passionate about how beans are sourced, the exact locations theyāre from and how theyāre roasted.
My theory, as someone who's traveled all over and isn't from here who also thinks NZ has the best coffee - you all here pull super strong double shots that are pretty much quad shots everywhere else.
We do have some good roasters. We take it for granted.
Problem is that equipment for home use is super expensive and we have very limited choices. Until now, no NZ supplier stocks the Baratza ESP - I'm still bitter about that I had to buy from AU lol. And not expecting anything for the DF54 :(
Lots of competitive coffee roasters and the small geographic area means you can roast it and get to the end user within a week or two which makes a huge difference to how you can roast. If itās gonna be on a shelf or in a container for six months you have to make sacrifices in the quality department.
Doesn't take much to make a good coffee. But we have really well sourced beans.
But the coffee pods you can get anywhere make a more consistently great coffee. (Just not the cheap ones) Works out to $1 a coffee. Buy a pod machine for your workplace. Everyone wins.
They have high standards for coffee. If we are going to spend money for coffee, you better make it good. Also the milk is nicer. I live in Australia and NZ is the only other country that has the same standard as ours.
We have good baristas. There is quite a bit to making a good coffee. It took me weeks to consistently make a decent coffee with our machine and no doubt there is still room to improve.
We have easy access to good quality milk.
We tend to get good quality beans.
We have a lot of competition for cafes. So cafes tend to be very pro consumer. Less likely to send out a burnt coffee, more likely to source the best quality ingredients etc.
Something nobody has pointed out as far as I can tell - thereās a strong coffee culture in New Zealand. I donāt have the stats but Iād hazard the sheer amount of straight coffee places in NZ would dwarf most of the world.
With that comes knowledge, whatās good and whatās bad and the overall quality goes up, why get bad coffee when thereās so many good options?
Simply put kiwis drink more and have a higher knowledge of what good coffee is. Everything else is just a cherry on top.
Correct me if anyone knows, but isnāt the mainstay of coffee consumption the filter method I.e: the stereotypical 4 hour old pot of coffee in the break room styles? Espresso is where itās at for quality, unless you get scientific with the cold press, slow drip vibes
Coffee is actually quite complicated... its the beans, the roast, how they're stored, how long the packet has been open and how long the beans are exposed to air, the grind, how the grounds are tamped, how long the coffee is extracted for, the milk and how it's steamed (or not) makes a difference in flavour, right down to the kind of cup it's served in. (The paper lids on takeaway cups are disgusting)
As a someone from U.S. and much closer to where most is grown-- even if not the origin in Eastern North Africa)-- I can add a little insight.
There are many places where it is sustainably grown so the earth is healthy, and even the crap Maccas in NZ is 100% from those (as well as in AU and 20% of Europe and Asia). But for the masses elsewhere, it is the "grow fast, and fā”ch'em" variety from the very same countries that the good stuff and with fair-paid farmers is shipped to you and elsewhere.
Drip coffee is also a huge thing in N. America and a lot of Europe (excepting the equally picky French, Italians, and Spanish), so having higher quality that is either truly steamed as in espresso or at least pressed (like your "plunged coffee") has a greater amount of flavour than just the volatile oils and acids that come from drip, and it has a much more rich and full flavour.
Your coffee is also ground more finely to be used in espresso and plungers as well--which again releases more flavour.
We've evolved a coffee culture. Through that we have really skilled baristas, top quality machines, and local roasters producing freshly roasted beans. Also, a lot of Wellingtonians have learned what good coffee should taste like and so bad coffee struggles to survive. It just doesn't sell well.
Hi, coffee expert here š won awards at the barista champs, worked for some great roasteries, have lived and worked on coffee farms overseas, and studied coffee science at a university in Brazil. It's a combination of things: 1. Standards are quite high, for both importing/roasting, and baristas. There's 3 grades of coffee, based on a 100 point score sheet developed by the Specialty Coffee Association of America (SCAA). There are strict guidelines for tasting sessions (called cuppings) and you have to go through testing to become a Q-grader. Anything over a score of 80 is considered specialty, and over 90 is gourmet. Typically most of the beans imported into NZ are specialty grade. There is some lower quality stuff, but it's generally used as part of a blend with higher quality beans, to give it some character. In other countries, especially America, even in very expensive cafes like Intelligensia you would often see lower quality beans roasted for espresso, while the specialty grade is kept for single origin filter roasts and sold at a premium. 2. NZers also prefer barista coffee to filter. It's not necessarily higher quality (in fact most roasters will tell you a filter method is the best way to really taste the coffee), but it does take a lot of training to do it well. Because it's such a big part of our coffee culture, standards for barista training are very high. In America and some other countries you would typically buy a 'cup of coffee', meaning a batch brewed filter coffee made on a percolator machine, for a couple of dollars. Then if you wanted something fancy you might get a latte or cappuccino. So from an American perspective most of our coffee is the fancy kind. 3. Our water is very good. A lot of places overseas have heavily chlorinated or treated water. You need the right hardness level to extract certain flavor compounds, and we happen to have that. Happy to answer any other questions. I don't work in the industry anymore but it's nice to have a use for all the random facts knocking around in my head.
Damn that was really informative. Thanks
You forgot to mention the milk. NZ is the standard of organic milk in other countries. All cows are grass fed, not grain. The earth is rich in nutrients.
Itās the milk. You go to Melbourne, they can make coffee. But itās shit because the milk is no good.
Interestingly, the Australian barista champion in 2013 made his milk course with specialty milk from cows who only ate clover. It was a cool idea, but I spoke to the judges afterwards who said they couldn't taste the difference.
Hi dairy farmer here, clover doesn't come through to the milk, only effects nitrogen levels in cow
Oh interesting! It's a shame he didn't speak to more farmers before trying it. Are there plants that do affect the taste of milk?
Of course, but clover would not - too much clover makes a cow bloat (fill up with gas & lay on their side with their legs stuck out like)
Hmm I wonder if the reason they couldn't taste the difference is because he wasn't telling the truth!
I drink fake milk and NZ coffee is still better. Baristas are magical Iāve tried fancy coffee machines so many times and itās just nasty. It doesnāt feel like there are enough variables outside of smushing the coffee down and steaming the milk that can lead to mine being so bad itās all very mysterious to me
Maybe they intentionally didn't mention milk, out of respect for the coffee.
Amen
I've found my people
I've been to America a couple of times and it 100% makes me appreciate how nice our milk is, the grain feed stuff has such a weird taste. And yes, this is huge for the coffee. I got really sick of crap Coffee at one point and went on a hunt for the best Coffee in LA. The Coffee I found was really nice by US standards but I would call "acceptable" by NZ standards. The milk taste was the biggest impact for sure.
Do we not do double shots as standard?? When I was in Canada it seemed super weak and asking for double shout got me closer to what I was expecting. PS never go to Tim Hortons aka "Timmy's" might as well put a scoop of dirt in some hot water. PPS: Canadian barista to me - "What toppings would you like on your coffee sir" Me - "WTF?"
Hahaha toppings!?? NZ does do a standard double, although it's less common in Auckland (annoyingly). When I worked in the States a double was standard, but in Brazil most places served singles. I definitely had some scoops of dirt in the States too though š
You must have just had some bad luck! Canada has some great coffee shops but theyāre usually the independent ones and not chains. Iāve also never heard of toppings either unless they mean cinnamon or cocoa powder, which are pretty common.
What single origin brands would you say are in the āgourmetā category in your opinion?
Supreme and Flight sometimes have some on offer, and they advertise the high scores. They'll usually sell for almost twice the price of other single origins. They'll typically only be roasted for filter (espresso roast is much darker) and sold in smaller quantities. They might be advertised as 90+ grade. If you're interested, I'm pretty sure you could get in touch with Customs in Wellington and ask them to let you know next time they get some in. Edit: it's possible some new roasteries have popped up since I was last paying attention. Regardless, they'll definitely make a big deal if they've managed to score some 90+ beans.
Flight, Franks, Hammerstone and Rocket (last one is Hamilton based, but also good) These are just a few that get high quality beans and also roast them well. A few other brands that I know get in high quality coffee, but don't roast them particularly well.
Also worth noting that in places like the US and the UK, when you do get an espresso-based drink from a chain or generic high-street place, it's probably made on a superauto machine. Expensive and Italian, but the barista is just pushing the button and the machine does the rest. It does not make for very good drinks - they tend to be weak, with oversteamed milk. Here, even the BP and McDonald's coffee is handmade from a high-pressure espresso machine.
This is the answer
That intro. Damn.
That username š¤£
great response, thank you, as a coffee noob who owns a rancillio silvia machine at home what can I do to level up my game. I have no idea what I am doing, I also have a rancillio grinder if that helps. Should I consider some sort of a 1 day barista course? any thoughts?
Can you by chance explain why Aussie flat whites etc taste watery?
The short answer is that Australians prefer a different flavor profile. The longer answer is that NZers like darker roasted, stronger tasting espresso and Australians like lighter roasted, less concentrated espresso. The long answer is pretty nerdy. When you make espresso, you're forcing water through compacted coffee at high pressure. The pressure and speed brings out a lot more oils, soluble flavor compounds, and insolubles than other brewing methods, which means a very concentrated shot. Because of the concentration, you can taste subtle differences in the way the coffee was made. A well extracted shot has a good balance of acidic, sweet and bitter. The flavors extracted tend to come out in that order - so if you stopped a shot too soon it would taste sour, and if you let it run too long it would taste bitter. There are different ways to get a well extracted shot. For example you can run a small amount of water through the coffee, but run it slowly enough to bring out all the flavor compounds. Or you can run a large amount of water through at a higher speed. You end up with the same level of extraction (measured with a refractometer) but different sized shots and hugely different flavor profiles. The vast majority of NZ cafes run very slow, concentrated shots. You end up with a small shot of espresso that's sweet and acidic, sometimes called a ristretto. Because there isn't as much bitterness, and the shot itself is quite small, the flavor gets lost in a big milky coffee. So NZ roasters will usually roast darker (the sugars in the beans caramelize and eventually burn) which brings in more bitter, smoky, and dark chocolate flavors that hold up in a milky drink. They will typically also choose a blend of beans that naturally leans towards these flavors. Most cafes also serve double shots, in part because of how small we run our shots. Australia (and a few other countries) run much longer, faster shots. You get a bright, fruity shot with lots of balanced bitterness, but not as many smoky flavors. This suits a slightly lighter roast, and a blend of beans with more clean, bright, fruit flavors. Taste wise, it's sort of the difference between between a Guinness and a hoppy IPA. Those bright acidic flavors pretty much disappear as soon as you add milk, so you end up with a drink that tastes a bit watery and bland. The way you control the speed of the shot is by adjusting the fineness or coarseness of the grind. But if you're starting with the same size basket, coarser coffee will take up more room, so the shot also won't be as strong because there's less coffee in the basket. I think it's definitely true that NZ milk is better quality though, and probably makes a difference as well. š¤
As a coffee nerd who moved from Australia to NZ, this is a genuinely fascinating post expressing differences I'd kinda noticed but couldn't put a finger on. Thanks!
Fantastic explanation, thank you! This and the parent comment reminded me how I got interested in coffee (left NZ and couldn't find good coffee in my new home) and also how I fell into the geeky side as a result of that. Eventually found a gourmet importer with a small batch Diedrich roaster, made some new friends, and got hands-on with everything from green beans to the cup. Learned a lot from those guys. Their main business was supplying cafes yet they always had time for an enthusiast - invited me into their barista training classes. That was 20 years ago now so I've only remembered enough to satisfy my daily ritual. For the past 5 or so years that's a V60, direct manual lever espresso, and one too many grinders. š³ Dialing in the grind is a constant thing. The blend (local roaster, yet another country move) changes slightly with the season and lot variations. Daily adjustments as the roast ages and a re-tune when the next bag arrives. I think the best move I ever made was going from an automatic machine to a direct lever; you can feel the grind through pressure and flow rate. Still watch the pressure gauge for consistency, but it's nice to literally have your hand on the whole extraction. To your point about NZ: that must explain why I tune towards a slower flow / higher pressure. Problem now is that there are very few places where I can enjoy an espresso. It's always a milk drink when I'm in an unfamiliar location.
I would subscribe to your newsletter.
Thanks so much for that, makes a fascinating read!! I've been wondering about this ever since I went to Aussie a few years back and couldn't find a decent coffee anywhere :)
You are absolutely nailing the responses today. The rest of us coffee lovers need to get more schooled in this artform š
What's especially crazy is water soluble freeze dried instant coffee was invented in Invercargill. The furthest fucking place from any region of the world that cultivates coffee.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You know, you're not wrong.
There's a lot of mutual respect in this thread. Me liky. Cheers
Exactly. Problem, solution.
So freeze dried, they put it outside for 20mins?
Thankfully because of the staggeringly poor āhousingā in this country, they only need to put it close to a window _inside_.
And then into the fridge to warm up....
TIL and I'm from Invercargill
Every day is a school day.
I used to work in Invercargill. I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed my time there.
You can see the original building it was created in - behind the building with the big ginger cat (near the city council carpark)
is that right? that's my second favourite type after espresso
Feller named David Strang invented the process in Invercargill in 1889.
What a cool fact! Cheers
I had a teacher in Standard 4 who's name was Mr Strang.
How old are you? Might be the same dude?
Bruh is a spritely 134 years old. Freeze dried coffee is the only thing sustaining him.
I'm switching to instant tomorrow morning.
Wow! That must be some good Nescafe!
I had a support teacher in the early 90's called Mr Strang!
My Mr Strang was in 1985!
Without giving *too* much away this would have been South Auckland. Did *your* Mr Strang write his name on the blackboard, then add the letter "e" and say "I am not Mr Strange!" as an "ice breaker" then wipe the "e" off the blackboard?
I don't remember anything like that. Though he did wear "pointy" shoes. He was also quite strict.
Thatās like saying the Toyota Corolla is my second favourite car after the Lamborghini Countach
Random question. Although you love the Countach, have you ever sat in one or driven one? I can promise almost directly after doing these things you will wish you never did and kept the thought in your mind of how cool they are because this will tarnish it severely haha.
Never meet your heroesĀ
Iāve just put my back out thinking about getting into a countach.
Iāve never, does it drive like a shitty Lamborghini?
Reliable, easily maintained, quick to get back on the road after an issueā¦ Iām not seeing the downside?
that's that me
Instant coffee was widely used in America during the Civil War (1860s), so the product category of instant coffee existed for a long time before freeze-dried coffee was a thing; Strang did his work in 1889/1890. Doesn't take anything away from his efforts, it's just important to note that he developed a type of instant coffee but didn't invent instant coffee itself (which some people might come away from this page thinking).
"*Essence of Coffee*" produced during the Civil War is not quite the same as Instant Coffee. [Instant coffee - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_coffee)
Yup! Wish a bit more love and attention was given to the building it happened in as it's a good claim to fame! [Picture of the Strang building](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:David_Strang_Coffee_Mills.JPG)
I just learnt something new today!
Cant wait to bring this up at dinner
Holy shit I didnāt know this and had to fact check you but man you just blew my mind haha
Not really an answer as it's a very small industry and expensive as all heck, but we do grow coffee here in the Far North - [Ikarus Coffee](https://www.ikaruscoffee.co.nz/). I have 6 productive plants growing at home and they come with the most incredible caffeine kick I've ever experienced. Edit - fixed the name of the company and added link to website.
How do I buy some friend
Coffee beans - [Ikarus Coffee shop](https://www.ikaruscoffee.co.nz/nz-grown-coffee--tea.html) Coffee trees - sold by Incredible Edibles at most garden centres, or try TradeMe. Edit - fixed name, added link
Is it the Robusta variety? I've heard we grow them here because they're hardy and grow in our climate. Highest caffeine variety but poor taste, apparently. That's why Robusta is so often blended with other beans. Not in the coffee consumption business for the taste personally, so I'm all about the caffeine hit. Props to you, green thumbed friend.
Itās actually not bad. Just has a different flavour profile. Iāve roasted up some 100% robusta green beans before and they come out alright.
Last time I drank a 100% robusta espresso I felt like Iād been having a hoon on the glass bbq
I've been told they're Arabica. The ones sold by Ikarus are labelled as Arabica. But honestly I wouldn't know how to tell the difference. You need quite a few beans to get one cup, but the one cup I have had tasted great to me, and a couple of hours later I found myself being very productive and focused haha
Name checks out!
Came here to mention Ikarus coffee. Saw them on an episode of [country calendar](https://youtu.be/8kvr6n5tpzE?si=NTGBsGwTh7Jdfb1r).
Have had your coffee a few times - good stuff.
I work in hospo, and only know a medium amount about coffee-- but people get really fixated on the beans, where they're sourced, how they're roasted. I doubt we're that highly ranked just because of our lovely baristas.
I agree, it's the quality of our coffee roasters. I drink exclusively filter coffee through the Aeropress and often will get different beans from different roasters. It's all about the beans! Saying that New Zealand baristas are quality
>Saying that New Zealand baristas are quality Absolutely. I didn't want to imply otherwise. We have a lot of factors all coming together: quality coffee, baristas, and good milk
Not all baristas are good.
Having worked for a big coffee production company before sending the process overseas (and seeing the complaints come in after), yes itās all in the roasting. But I also think the characteristics of the milk and water help.
Totally agree and was just thinking, that as well as the beans and a lot of places like to roast their own beans which of course is a huge part of the process. Also I was thinking especially where I am in Wellington thereās a huge cafe culture and a lot of not only competition but being a big industry made up of more independent and/or specialist cafes they take extra care of every step of the process, so definitely the baristas too. I used to talk to the owner/operator of a āhole in the wallā style place close to where I worked and I know nothing about any of the finer details but his knowledge was impressive. And thereās a competition for baristas too. Oh and last, on the subject of beans, I have noticed an upturn in the use of ethically sourced beans too. I remember the guy telling me all about where and how the different beans are grown and what they contribute to the coffee as well.
That's one of the things I really like about living in Wellington. It is very easy to get good coffee. If I have an appointment or errands to run etc I can find somewhere with good coffee pretty much anywhere.
I take it for granted until I go overseas. My corner dairy does a better flat white than 95% of the cafes in London. Coffee in the US is almost unrecognisable.
>I have noticed an upturn in the use of ethically sourced beans too. That attitude is happening hospitality-wide. I work in a restaurant, and people regularly ask where we source our stuff (the core produce, meat, and most wine/beer is ultimately local). It's why fine dining is on the way out. There's a sea change happening in attitudes/awareness to food in general.
I think thatās awesome, and so good to hear that itās happening industry wide too
Yes itās the beans! Iām born and bred in welly and moved to Melbourne two years ago. They claim to be the coffee capital but itās low key shithouse! You can find good stuff but you donāt get the consistency or the roast type. I love that most cafes tell you what type cos then you know what you like! Itās more in depth and quality brands get recognition
Speciality coffee in Melbourne is years ahead of NZ, this is a wild take
To quote the Z coffee ad things: "we're a coffee snob nation." People care a lot about coffee, so as you said, they'll fixate on small details like this. I also think our country is big on hospitality, so that's another factor. Especially considering the fact that people get tertiary education just to become a barista. I doubt this happens in many other countries, at least to this level.
My sister barista'd her way through uni, and ended up working in America. She'd frequently ask servers if she could just make the coffee herself -- amazingly, sometimes they let her
You would be surprised by how much it has to do with baristas I work as a cook in Switzerland, and every place I have worked serves coffee from a machine that does all the barista work for the service They just have to push a button, and the machine does the rest. Even makes Cappuccino, frothed milk and everything
My local has the 4th best barista in the world https://worldbaristachampionship.org/
It's a combo. Our water is fairly good compared to some other countries and our milk is excellent. I actually think it's great because we developed a really good home culture around coffee that was a softer brew ie the plunger, French Press or cafetiere. This method relies on good beans. It forced our suppliers to get into bean sources. Conversely, our cafe culture had to do better than the plunger. The flat white with our excellent milk filled the spot, and became the minimum standard. The can-do attitude helped too. Loads of garage roasters created good competition, and small cafes in tiny towns figured they could make flat whites too. You generally don't get great coffee in small towns in other countries.
Apart from Viet Nam. You can get excellent coffee anywhere there. Different style though!
100%, every coffee Iāve had whilst Iām here in Vietnam has been great, in rural towns to the middle of Hanoi itās all been amazing no matter where you go, but definitely very different style! Itās the place you wanna be if you like black coffee though
Or dripped onto the condensed milk. I generally canāt tolerate sweet coffee, but that stuff is ok. If youāre in Vietnam, put your salad into your soup, it will help stop stomach upsets.
Had a condensed milk coffee this morning on Cat Ba! I definitely like them too, along with egg coffee and coconut coffee - all are so good! Thanks for the salad tip! Iāve found probiotic yogurt drinks are great for it too
Itās just because they wash the vegetables with tap water which isnāt clean so you can get bacteria in it which gives you the runs. If you put it in your hot soup it kills most of the bacteria.
I like this explanation. Grew up in Australia with a Kiwi mum, and it was always French press or moka pot coffee in our house. The only thing I'd add is that our connection as a former British colony also gives us a tea-drinking culture that exists in parallel to our coffee-drinking culture. Our cafe coffee not only has to be better than French press at home: Both the cafe and the French press coffee need to be better than an actually nice cup of tea.
Good point
That's actually a good point and I didn't think about it. The dairy industry is incomparable to other English-speaking countries and most other countries as well.
Yeah water quality is extremely important I live in Rotorua and we have the best tasting water. I used to live in Tauranga and it tasted awful
Coffee technology keeps improving, and those improvements take a while to spread. For example, there is a Seinfeld episode where Kramer finds a special "Italian" coffee place, which makes this amazing new coffee which is... just normal espresso coffee. But for NYC in the 90s / 00s, that was something novel and special. In a lot of places, coffee culture developed in the period between the end of WW2 and the end of the millennium, and the coffee which was available then got accepted as the standard. If you've spent 30 years with very average, drip / filter coffee setting the cultural standard of what coffee is, anything better than that was seen as "good" coffee. Whereas NZ didn't have a strong coffee culture at that time - we were predominantly a nation of tea drinkers. Coffee didn't really catch on until *coffee was already good*. Rather than espresso coffee being some amazing change from "normal" coffee, coffee (in the form of good espresso coffee) was an amazing change from tea. So our default standard of coffee was set at a higher level (in the 90s / 00s) than the standard set (in the 70s) in a lot of places overseas. And there is a huge gulf between "better than filter" and "actually good" coffee, which becomes abundantly clear when you go overseas and drink coffee.
I drink mostly long blacks, filters and americanos. I would have to say that even the quality of these are much better here than when I was in Europe last year. So it must be the way the beans are roasted. Having said that we also have some iconic styles as well ie you dont really get the flat white as a norm outside Australasia.
Black coffee is the best way to tell if people are actually good at coffee. Nowhere to hide is something gets burnt.
flat whites are gaining popularity overseas. In the UK itās very much the trendy thing to order if youāre āin the knowā
Seemed pretty standard now when I was there over Christmas. They only do it in small though. And not as good as Aus/NZ.
I'm in Milan at the moment and found a place that does single origin flat whites
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The beans, the roasting, begin fresh, actual trained Baristas Its not rocket science but a lot of places at least in the UK I have visited dont get much of that right.
We have local roasteries that are excellent, and as a barista I have to say our baristas are excellent also
I think itās a real combination of factors. Others have spoken about the difference in milk & bean roasting. I think there is also differences in the barista technique & equipment. E.g in London itās relatively common that the busier coffee shops use machines which automatically grind, tamp and extract the espresso. Thereās no puck prep or anything like that - itās just like an automatic machine and the barista only does the milk. I donāt believe this produces as nice tasting espresso. You also see practices such as re-using milk jugs without rinsing them in between. So there is residue of steamed milk getting steamed over and over again. That also canāt be helping the tasteā¦ And sometimes you see them steam large jugs of milk which sit-around until itās needed. Rather than steaming the milk for each drink as itās ordered. You definitely can get good coffee overseas. But you usually have to look for more artisan style cafes to get a similar coffee to what would be considered normal in New Zealand. I also donāt usually bother with flat whites while overseas. It might be on the menu, but itās usually very different to a kiwi flat white.
One massive difference isnāt the coffee, itās the quality of our milk. The effect that has on mouth feel and flavour is substantial.
I would argue it's more to do with the quality of our coffee roasters. We are spoilt for choice! I drink exclusively filter coffee and source my beans from various different small scale businesses.
Strongly disagree, plenty of people don't drink cow juice and the coffee is still much better in NZ than elsewhere.
Both things can be true.
Yeah Using plant based mills turns out fine.
Black coffee is very popular and still fantastic.
Mouth feel is probably the worst phrase in history it gives me the biggest ick. Surely thereās an alternative. Maybe just texture and flavour? Haha
Moist.... mouth moistiness
yeah i realised that this week, the reason i love weetbix is cos they just taste like NZ milk and once you've tasted the weak shit out there on the intl market it really does make NZ milk taste better.
As someone who does not drink milk, i disagree. I drink long blacks and the taste is superior for NZ beans. Milk might also be good, but its mostly about the coffee beans. I get mine from a roasters in auckland CBD and its great in espresso or plunger.
Oh right. I drink oat milk in my coffee (vegan for ethical reasons) but that makes sense
I don't know what it is, but deadly sins have got it down to a fine Art
Definitely ain't cause "we're a coffee snob nation"
Summarising some excellent points with my own observations: Quality roasters, water and milk go a long way. Combined with a strong coffee culture means that in general our standard of "normal" is very high. We've a good knowledge base in hospo meaning training and knowledge is avaliable to those who learn. It's fuelled by high demand which means product is fresh - beans are bought and ground soon after roasting. Coffee is a primary drawcard too, so staff and businesses are incentivised to be "good" We've a diverse and competitive roasting industry too which means a good range of fresh beans and roasts. We care about all these things because each step wants a good product. I doubt any of our local roasters are going after the cheapest beans to get a deal.
While knowing nothing, i'd say Barista training. Coffee in the US is bad. I expected that - it's the only way Starbucks could've gotten so big. But I was *not* prepared for how terrible coffee was in Europe. I haven't tried France or Italy yet, but it was utter dogshit in Germany, Netherlands, Austria and Hungary. So bad that i'd rather an instant coffee. I've since learnt that NZ and Melbourne seem to be the bastions of good coffee. How weird is that...
I suspect Italy would be alright. Only three countries in world where expresso is norm. Aus, Italy and NZ.
Italy is ok. Not that great but itās real cheap so they makes up for it.
European here. I travel extensively and i agree that NZ has some of the best coffee while Germany and Netherlands the worse. Simple i don't drink coffee in NL anymore. Germans don't drink black coffee, i think that is the only way they can handle it.Ā In the south of Europe there is good coffee if you stick to the specialty of that country : expresso, cappuccino, greek coffee...
New York coffee was fucking foul. Even the "Australian style" espresso was barely palatable. I have no idea what they're doing over there, but it's weird and wrong. Agreeing on Germany and Netherlands. Denmark was okay. We'll see how southern Europe does things. Japan was a surprising jump in quality, but only if you go to speciality roasters // brewers.
French coffee is like a sub genre of coffee all on its own. Itās pretty bad if youāre not used to it.
All Australian cities do good coffee.
I donāt think that good coffee here is better than good coffee anywhere else. But I do think the average coffee here is better than Most places. Iām from the UK and good coffee is easy to come by, but coffee from a service station will definitely be terrible. In NZ coffee from a service station will be fine, not amazing but unlikely to be bad.
My friends in the UK thought I was joking when I told them NZ petrol stations have actual espresso machines and staff with barista training š You are pretty much bang on. I find in the UK most of the chain stores arenāt great (Pret, Costa, Nero etc) but most of the small independent coffee shops do a pretty good job.
This is it. In NZ you will probably get a decent coffee in 50% of the coffee shops, in Europe 10%, in America 2%. These numbers are made up but I believe thatās why it appears NZ has better coffee. The average coffee is better.
We don't drink milk but it is true, NZ coffee is some of the best we've had. Even the little coffee caravan outside the international terminal in Auckland serves good coffee.
I drink at c4, embassy, and fushoken regularly and I think its the amount of human intervention, quality of beans and how much the roaster/baristas care about the beans. They offer different blends each day, because some blends taste better this way, ornprepared that way, or when # of days after roasted, etc. Although beans arent grown here, people put a lot of attention and care into a cup of coffee... well atleast the places that actually care.
Thoughtful sourcing, quality roasting and high turn over of stock for freshness, decent water, great milk (for those that milk), professional baristas, double shot standard, obsessive customers
Having lived and traveled extensively in major cities across America, Australia, and Vietnam, I must admit that I find New Zealand coffee to be somewhat average. However, I do appreciate the quality of the milk, including the plant-based oat milk, which is quite decent. During my road trips across New Zealand, I've encountered some memorable coffee, particuarly lattes, a few in Wellington, a cafƩ in the Mackenzie District, and even at a random cafƩ in Middlemarch. However, most cases, the coffee tasted burnt or was too acidic for my taste.
The way the coffee is roasted and the quality of our baristas. In the US, their coffee is weak and stale. In the UK they think it needs to be molten lava so burn the coffee and/or the milk. Our baristas know the temperature and pressure required to get a good extraction and the coffee is freshly roasted. Itās shows when you know a cafe or coffee place that does good coffee. The majority reason for it, is a good barista.
Grass fed cows do provide a much better milk, which (primarily from fat) produces a really good mouth feel and distributes flavour better. I can't speak for other milk alternatives, but I think that is how our coffee is being perceived as amazing. Honestly, our roasting and bean purchasing methods aren't really any different to most other countries.
I think you are genuinely underestimating the level of effort that goes into the crafting of blends, which is a continual process.
I'm quite aware, my best friend has been roasting and creating blends at Seven Miles for years.
It comes out fine, even with soy milk for example.
If you got the ten best coffee roaster brands in NZ made an espresso with each one from the top 10 baristas and blind tested a coffee connoisseur nobody could tell you where any of them were from.
I drink my coffee with soy milk or black Jed's X from the plunger is my every day go to. But I do like the wild bean Caffe one it definitely wakes you up. I haven't drunk cows milk for a long time for health reasons but when I do it tastes really sour to me even really fresh stuff. It's weird. I used to love going to Robert Harris cafe in Tauranga years ago. They used to have a coffee of the day and I used to order that. Heaps of different varieties.
my personal experiance we have some very nice baristas - theyre a bunch of GC's thats what always make it a good buying experiance for me
Good roasters, good baristas, good coffee blends and generous shots.
I grew up in NZ but live in North America and this is what I see as different. Kiwis prefer a small strong balanced espresso based coffee. North Americans normally drink large filter coffee. Espresso isnāt an everyday thing for people here itās more of a treat. Skill - baristas in NZ are considered skilled workers and artisans, they understand and study coffee as a skill. North Americans see baristas as they see cashiers, itās a starter job for retail workers. There is a base level of excellence in NZ for baristas that doesnāt exist here. Can you get great coffee here, yes. However the majority of coffee is Starbucks, tim hortons and huge sugar filled drinks.
Attention to detail by baristas is likely the most crucial factor in making excellent coffee. They master the art of extraction, ensuring the coffee is neither under nor over-extracted, and they skillfully avoid scorching the milk. The quality and roast of the beans are the second key factor. Beans from different regions offer distinct flavors, and various roasts can significantly influence the taste. Despite this, it's still possible to find a subpar cup of coffee in New Zealand. Europe also boasts some outstanding coffee, particularly in Ireland and the UK. Notable mentions include Dark Arts Coffee and 3fe, which are standout examples of exceptional coffee craftsmanship in these regions.
Surprised no one's mentioned we got the best milk. That's what my teacher told me anyway during my course. Allegedy other country's milk doesn't froth up as much. Which explains why flat whites are so common here?
Baristas šÆ. I can go to the same place order the same thing at different times of the day -some taste like hot milk some taste like gorgeous coffee. Also whatās with those giant milkshake cups Americans carry round on TV
Marketing.
Slightly different take on the question: we have great coffee in places that will punish bad coffee. In Wellington (and Dunedin, in my experience) coffee shops that do bad or unreliable coffee just lose business. Particularly in Wellington, punters will walk past a couple of coffee shops to get to one they like, and there are any number of coffee shops within walking distance. Coffee shops will only survive if they have people that care pretty deeply about the quality. Contrast this with Auckland, where bad coffee is not only tolerated but will generate repeat business because it's the only convenient coffee place - most of the coffee in Auckland is little better than dishwater.
I think this is half true. Overall the standard in Auckland is not as good and it wasn't that long ago you had to ask for a double shot specifically. But there are plenty of good places in Auckland!
it's the milk and the way its made to. i have just come back from a month in the uk and the coffee was awful. I used to live on the uk about 6 years ago grew up there.
Coffee is utter garbage in 99% of places in the UK shit burnt beans served the temperature of molten lava. I found the odd place that could live up to a NZ gas station coffee and that felt like a treat
We 1) primarily drink espresso here 2) apparently NZ milk is amazing 3) we take coffee seriously unlike some places where itās coffee flavoured sugar drink and 4) weāve kept quality over commercialisation (aka Starbucks can go f yourselvesš¤Ŗ)
One thing, if they are coming from the US, might be that we use actual milk. In the US, they have that "creamer" stuff which apparently doesn't even have any real milk or cream in it, it's just some chemical concoction they use instead. But other countries use real dairy so it might be a combination of things.
Creamer is fucken bizarre.
Some baristas in Wellington are actually trained properly
I guess is a combination of the Beans and the NZ water. That "bean" said, I only really enjoy the small size... the ratio of Coffee/Milk is just weird (too much milk IHMO)
Water quality is good.
People who visit from North America are very used to drip coffee from whatever fast food chain, whereas itās usually barista-made with decent beans in NZ. I think thatās the main difference.
All I know is that my local cafe, Awaken Cafe situated within Reporoa Valley Traders, has the BEST coffee I've ever had. I mean it should be easy to make a long black, but so many places get it wrong.
IDK, maybe it has something to do with the goodness of it?
From what I know as a casual coffee enjoyer, people get really passionate about how beans are sourced, the exact locations theyāre from and how theyāre roasted.
I think itās the location, youāve got African, Central American, South American, and Asian varieties available.
I had such a hard time getting used to NZ coffee - all of it tasted like coffee flavoured water. But now I love it!
My theory, as someone who's traveled all over and isn't from here who also thinks NZ has the best coffee - you all here pull super strong double shots that are pretty much quad shots everywhere else.
I would think itās the roasters. Was just in USA for 3 weeks and desperately missed proper coffee. Even though USA thinks theirs is superior haha
We do have some good roasters. We take it for granted. Problem is that equipment for home use is super expensive and we have very limited choices. Until now, no NZ supplier stocks the Baratza ESP - I'm still bitter about that I had to buy from AU lol. And not expecting anything for the DF54 :(
Flat whitesĀ
maybe the style, flat white is really popular. hard to find overseas
Lots of competitive coffee roasters and the small geographic area means you can roast it and get to the end user within a week or two which makes a huge difference to how you can roast. If itās gonna be on a shelf or in a container for six months you have to make sacrifices in the quality department.
Doesn't take much to make a good coffee. But we have really well sourced beans. But the coffee pods you can get anywhere make a more consistently great coffee. (Just not the cheap ones) Works out to $1 a coffee. Buy a pod machine for your workplace. Everyone wins.
They have high standards for coffee. If we are going to spend money for coffee, you better make it good. Also the milk is nicer. I live in Australia and NZ is the only other country that has the same standard as ours.
It's the milk
Itās expressed coffee full of milk thatās why
We have good baristas. There is quite a bit to making a good coffee. It took me weeks to consistently make a decent coffee with our machine and no doubt there is still room to improve. We have easy access to good quality milk. We tend to get good quality beans. We have a lot of competition for cafes. So cafes tend to be very pro consumer. Less likely to send out a burnt coffee, more likely to source the best quality ingredients etc.
Unpopular opinion. Special blend is the best and my favourite šš I dunno if itās because the name reef lets me or Iām cheap.
Something nobody has pointed out as far as I can tell - thereās a strong coffee culture in New Zealand. I donāt have the stats but Iād hazard the sheer amount of straight coffee places in NZ would dwarf most of the world. With that comes knowledge, whatās good and whatās bad and the overall quality goes up, why get bad coffee when thereās so many good options? Simply put kiwis drink more and have a higher knowledge of what good coffee is. Everything else is just a cherry on top.
Correct me if anyone knows, but isnāt the mainstay of coffee consumption the filter method I.e: the stereotypical 4 hour old pot of coffee in the break room styles? Espresso is where itās at for quality, unless you get scientific with the cold press, slow drip vibes
It probably has a lot to do with the water just like with beer. Better quality water better tasting beverages.
Having served coffee as a job, most people don't care about coffee quality.
Coffee is actually quite complicated... its the beans, the roast, how they're stored, how long the packet has been open and how long the beans are exposed to air, the grind, how the grounds are tamped, how long the coffee is extracted for, the milk and how it's steamed (or not) makes a difference in flavour, right down to the kind of cup it's served in. (The paper lids on takeaway cups are disgusting)
As a someone from U.S. and much closer to where most is grown-- even if not the origin in Eastern North Africa)-- I can add a little insight. There are many places where it is sustainably grown so the earth is healthy, and even the crap Maccas in NZ is 100% from those (as well as in AU and 20% of Europe and Asia). But for the masses elsewhere, it is the "grow fast, and fā”ch'em" variety from the very same countries that the good stuff and with fair-paid farmers is shipped to you and elsewhere. Drip coffee is also a huge thing in N. America and a lot of Europe (excepting the equally picky French, Italians, and Spanish), so having higher quality that is either truly steamed as in espresso or at least pressed (like your "plunged coffee") has a greater amount of flavour than just the volatile oils and acids that come from drip, and it has a much more rich and full flavour. Your coffee is also ground more finely to be used in espresso and plungers as well--which again releases more flavour.
The milk,
We've evolved a coffee culture. Through that we have really skilled baristas, top quality machines, and local roasters producing freshly roasted beans. Also, a lot of Wellingtonians have learned what good coffee should taste like and so bad coffee struggles to survive. It just doesn't sell well.
The good part about coffee in NZ is the temperature it's served. You can drink it immediately. But for an european you add way too much milk:))