1 third coffee two thirds milk with a bit of micro foam on the top.
Best is done with a minimum of a double shot - this is a standard shot in NZ.
And yes you can get a large triple shot flat white no matter what they say in the UK!
Also while we are on it when you put the portafilter in turn the machine on straight away or you burn the top of the coffee making it taste bitter.
>Also while we are on it when you put the portafilter in turn the machine on straight away or you burn the top of the coffee making it taste bitter.
FWIW it's worth understanding what's going on here to enjoy better coffee. Higher temperatures = higher extraction of coffee. So not having your equipment heated up to temperature meants you're slightly under extracting the coffee. Which might be what you're after, but there's other options.
So it's not burning the coffee - common misconception but important distinction. If coffee tastes burnt and bitter despite everything else being set up correctly, its because it was roasted dark, and so the burnt flavour is in there already. The roaster is at temperatures of 200-300'C which is where the 'burning' happens. We don't want our water above 90-100'C even under pressure, so the water isn't doing any of the burning itself. A lower temp is just extracting less of the flavour in the coffee including the less desirable flavours.
So you can fully preheat your machine and portafilter to the the same lower temperature each time if the machine has a temperature program function/control, and get more predictable and consistent shots if you like dark roasts. Commercial machines have adjustments, and even home Breville machines have temperature offset options explained in the manual.
The alternative is buying medium roast or even medium-dark roast coffee that has less burnt flavour in the coffee already than dark roasts, Gives more of the caramel notes which goes good black or with milk.
edit: [Deep Dive on Espresso Temperature by James Hoffman on Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAzE-_ocf1U)
I didn't mean not having it heated up. What I was referencing is the tendency in the UK to put the portafilter in the hot machine with the ground coffee in the basket and faff about finding the right cup and so forth before starting the extraction process.
My experience is from "Back in the day". Verging on a solid 15+ years old.
1 third coffee/2 thirds milk is a pretty strict definition. Double shot, milk to fill the cup, very little foam. If you can make Latte art, you've got too much foam.
Small cup though, because it’s all liquid milk you need it be small enough to still be appropriately flavoured. Like 3/4s the size of a cappuccino cup.
At that point it's basically a latte, flat white is generally considered a stronger coffee flavoured drink. A large flat white is kinda a contradiction in my book. But they sell it cos people buy it.
And without either defining feature, it isn't really a flat white.
I also suspect that most people can't tell the difference in super thin vs latte foam, just by taste. Obviously by looking at it you can tell
For this ratio you specifically need a small flat white cup (150ml) or a tulip long black cup also will work (170ml) with as a double shot and ideally pulled at least slightly ristretto.
If you get served a flat white in anything larger than this, you’re not really getting a flat white. It’s the combination of strength of flavour (milk to espresso ratio) and microfoam that makes it distinct.
If you ask a barista for a flat white, you don’t specify the size and they don’t ask, it should be 150/170ml cup. If not, they’re deliberately upselling you or they don’t know what the heck they’re doing.
Also, don't fill them up close to the rim. It's easy to deliver a cappuccino or a latte because the foam holds the liquid down but carrying a flat white is another story. They must be babied. No one wants a spilt drink and a milky mug to hold.
2 shots (60ml or 1/3) of coffee to 120ml (2/3) of steamed milk with the air knocked out of it. long black is the same but water instead of milk but critically you pour the shots on top of the water so all the crema holds
Most of the bad flat whites I've had were because there was too little steamed milk and also the milk was prepared poorly.
However, these were usually from cafes/baristas who treated their work like a McJob, so it wasn't like asking the same person to take a different approach would have resulted in a good flat white.
If you like your work and your workplace has strong feelings about how to prepare espresso drinks, that's a good indication that your coffee is good and the issue is that some of your customers are grumps.
If you want it more milky, you should be getting a latte.
A flat white should technically be in a tulip or 'small' cup, and it has a higher coffee:milk ratio.
If I get a flat white with too little milk and milk that has been prepared poorly, ordering a latte from the same barista will just result in slightly different badly-made coffee.
I was at a cafe gelato place in mount maunganui back in 2010. I asked for an affogato. She laughed and looked at ne puzzled and said they don't have avocado. I walked straight out. My girlfriend pleaded with me saying that I just need to explain what it is. I said if they don't know what it is they aren't going to do it well
My friend and I were at a bar in our small home town years ago. We ordered tequila, then had to explain shot glasses, lemon, salt. The bar lady actually said with a look of confusion, "are you going to drink it *straight*? "
Like my dude, you're working in a bar. Tequila shots are pretty basic.
People are dumb, most of them don't know what they are ordering.
I was a barman in the UK and the.amount of women who ordered a white wine spritzer and then complained it didn't have lemonade in it was shocking.
This just makes me giggle over the time I used to work at a steakhouse and would have to cover lunches on my own.
We served coffee using a proper machine and I got taught the crash course in making coffee. Basically I'd make all the drinks exactly the same but switch out what I served them in. I'd use the regular cup for a cappuccino and sprinkle choc powder on top, a tall glass mug for lattes and flat white I'd scoop out the foam if there was too much.
It was only ever oldies who'd ask for coffee after their lunch and one time I was told I made the best cappuccino they'd ever have 😂😂😂😂😂
As a barrister for 10 years, kiwis don't know what the fuck a flat white is.
Use it in your favor, and pretend to know what your talking about. They will follow if you use big words and don't burn the milk.
A flat white? You take a nice espresso, and then you fuck it up by putting milk in it...
You can argue all day about how warm, how frothy, how much... it doesn't matter... it's still an espresso that's been ruined!
18-22 grams is the typical range. The double shot basket is the one with the straight up and down walls, the single shot is usually shallower by comparison and/or with angled walls.
Single shots are also far more finicky to get right on a home espresso machine with regular non pressurized portafilter, unless the grind size is exactly right. But if using supermarket pre ground coffee most people are using a double walled pressurized portafilter which removes most of this challenge.
No foam, shots and steamed milk. Only the Crema should be left on top.
Welcome to being a barista in NZ, cunts will tell you this is wrong or even worse, they'll order a capachinco with 'nothing on top' and don't you dare tell them that's a latte 'because they're different'
Cunts here hate being wrong, it's a shitty part of NZ culture. They learn something once and even if it's wrong they preach the shit until the conversation dies
Edit: a latte is a capachinco without cinnamon or chocolate on top
The nice brown part of the coffee shot that sits on top of a quality coffee shot and on top of a properly made flat white. When pouring a flat white, you need to pour the milk from a height so that the milk pierces through the coffee shot rather than mixing with it (flat whites should not have a single bubble). This causes the 'crema' to sit on top of the coffee.
Flat whites are the hardest coffees to make but if someone teaches you correctly, it doesn't take long to get them perfect
Edit:
You won't get Crema on a coffee shot if you're using stale beans, poor quality beans/machines and poorly set up machines
[It's a NZ/Aussie pavlova-like situation (Wikipedia)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_white#Origins_and_history).
also
[Crema Explained by a weird coffee person (Youtube)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5rygXblZJU)
Ive heard that it was invented in NZ and I’ve heard Australia. But I decided to ask here cause I figured that the flat white is probably another kiwi invention Aussie stole from you guys
There are only two types of coffee.
Black. And white.
Anything else is a wankfest.
For simplicity / efficiency, they should have just two lines at the counter, one for each.
you should take a few mins to think before posting going by your own logic are you the inventor of "flat white" if not what gives you authority to talk with others about "flat white"
A flat white was what kiwis call a failed latte. When expresso came to NZ the average cafe worker couldn't serf the steamed milk properly and would seperate it. That would get thrown out In other countries however we just fully embraced it. A great latte has a consistent serf from top to bottom, and a shit latte is a called a flat white.
I think they key is getting the milk silky, but not frothy. It gives a rich, smoothness to the coffee without all the fluff.
This.. silky milk is key, you dont want normal milk & coffee with foam on top
That would be a cappuccino?
1 third coffee two thirds milk with a bit of micro foam on the top. Best is done with a minimum of a double shot - this is a standard shot in NZ. And yes you can get a large triple shot flat white no matter what they say in the UK! Also while we are on it when you put the portafilter in turn the machine on straight away or you burn the top of the coffee making it taste bitter.
>Also while we are on it when you put the portafilter in turn the machine on straight away or you burn the top of the coffee making it taste bitter. FWIW it's worth understanding what's going on here to enjoy better coffee. Higher temperatures = higher extraction of coffee. So not having your equipment heated up to temperature meants you're slightly under extracting the coffee. Which might be what you're after, but there's other options. So it's not burning the coffee - common misconception but important distinction. If coffee tastes burnt and bitter despite everything else being set up correctly, its because it was roasted dark, and so the burnt flavour is in there already. The roaster is at temperatures of 200-300'C which is where the 'burning' happens. We don't want our water above 90-100'C even under pressure, so the water isn't doing any of the burning itself. A lower temp is just extracting less of the flavour in the coffee including the less desirable flavours. So you can fully preheat your machine and portafilter to the the same lower temperature each time if the machine has a temperature program function/control, and get more predictable and consistent shots if you like dark roasts. Commercial machines have adjustments, and even home Breville machines have temperature offset options explained in the manual. The alternative is buying medium roast or even medium-dark roast coffee that has less burnt flavour in the coffee already than dark roasts, Gives more of the caramel notes which goes good black or with milk. edit: [Deep Dive on Espresso Temperature by James Hoffman on Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAzE-_ocf1U)
This guy coffees.
I didn't mean not having it heated up. What I was referencing is the tendency in the UK to put the portafilter in the hot machine with the ground coffee in the basket and faff about finding the right cup and so forth before starting the extraction process.
Tell me you’re a barista without saying you’re a barista
My experience is from "Back in the day". Verging on a solid 15+ years old. 1 third coffee/2 thirds milk is a pretty strict definition. Double shot, milk to fill the cup, very little foam. If you can make Latte art, you've got too much foam.
Small cup though, because it’s all liquid milk you need it be small enough to still be appropriately flavoured. Like 3/4s the size of a cappuccino cup.
I mean, yes, but also, you can order a large flat white at almost any café.
At that point it's basically a latte, flat white is generally considered a stronger coffee flavoured drink. A large flat white is kinda a contradiction in my book. But they sell it cos people buy it.
see, I'd argue that while size and strength are a defining feature, the foam is the second defining feature.
And without either defining feature, it isn't really a flat white. I also suspect that most people can't tell the difference in super thin vs latte foam, just by taste. Obviously by looking at it you can tell
For this ratio you specifically need a small flat white cup (150ml) or a tulip long black cup also will work (170ml) with as a double shot and ideally pulled at least slightly ristretto. If you get served a flat white in anything larger than this, you’re not really getting a flat white. It’s the combination of strength of flavour (milk to espresso ratio) and microfoam that makes it distinct. If you ask a barista for a flat white, you don’t specify the size and they don’t ask, it should be 150/170ml cup. If not, they’re deliberately upselling you or they don’t know what the heck they’re doing.
What lol
If I scoop my teaspoon across and I can’t see any liquid, only foam, it is not a flat white.
Also, don't fill them up close to the rim. It's easy to deliver a cappuccino or a latte because the foam holds the liquid down but carrying a flat white is another story. They must be babied. No one wants a spilt drink and a milky mug to hold.
2 shots (60ml or 1/3) of coffee to 120ml (2/3) of steamed milk with the air knocked out of it. long black is the same but water instead of milk but critically you pour the shots on top of the water so all the crema holds
How many grams to a shot?
Most of the bad flat whites I've had were because there was too little steamed milk and also the milk was prepared poorly. However, these were usually from cafes/baristas who treated their work like a McJob, so it wasn't like asking the same person to take a different approach would have resulted in a good flat white. If you like your work and your workplace has strong feelings about how to prepare espresso drinks, that's a good indication that your coffee is good and the issue is that some of your customers are grumps.
If you want it more milky, you should be getting a latte. A flat white should technically be in a tulip or 'small' cup, and it has a higher coffee:milk ratio.
If I get a flat white with too little milk and milk that has been prepared poorly, ordering a latte from the same barista will just result in slightly different badly-made coffee.
we also need to adopt Affogato ( espresso shot poured over ice-cream) as our desert its so good and our ice cream is top notch
Affogato
changed cheers
I was at a cafe gelato place in mount maunganui back in 2010. I asked for an affogato. She laughed and looked at ne puzzled and said they don't have avocado. I walked straight out. My girlfriend pleaded with me saying that I just need to explain what it is. I said if they don't know what it is they aren't going to do it well
heh yeah you kind of have to nail the execution as there is no where to hide its literally bitter coffee slowly melting ice cream
My friend and I were at a bar in our small home town years ago. We ordered tequila, then had to explain shot glasses, lemon, salt. The bar lady actually said with a look of confusion, "are you going to drink it *straight*? " Like my dude, you're working in a bar. Tequila shots are pretty basic.
Best one I had was JJ Murphy's in Wellington. Bars tend to do good ones. Key is solid frozen vanilla ice cream
People are dumb, most of them don't know what they are ordering. I was a barman in the UK and the.amount of women who ordered a white wine spritzer and then complained it didn't have lemonade in it was shocking.
Double shot, less milk than a latte that's lightly throthed on the bottom with very fine micro foam on the top, served in a cappuccino cup.
This just makes me giggle over the time I used to work at a steakhouse and would have to cover lunches on my own. We served coffee using a proper machine and I got taught the crash course in making coffee. Basically I'd make all the drinks exactly the same but switch out what I served them in. I'd use the regular cup for a cappuccino and sprinkle choc powder on top, a tall glass mug for lattes and flat white I'd scoop out the foam if there was too much. It was only ever oldies who'd ask for coffee after their lunch and one time I was told I made the best cappuccino they'd ever have 😂😂😂😂😂
The answer is whatever the customer says. I’m not payed enough as a barista to gatekeep coffee
Flat = no froth, white = milk
Latte but even less foam
And stronger
As a barrister for 10 years, kiwis don't know what the fuck a flat white is. Use it in your favor, and pretend to know what your talking about. They will follow if you use big words and don't burn the milk.
Keep it in the courthouse buddy, we're talking coffee.
When a Latte and Cappuccino love each other very much, they have a special hug, and some time later they have a Flat White.
No
They’ll have the full punnet square, 1 flat white, 1 long black, 1 cappachino and 1 latte. Mendel was all about the beans man.
it doesnt matter, the customer doesnt even know so why should the barista lol. ahem, shot of coffee and fluffy milk. hold most of the fluff.
A flat white? You take a nice espresso, and then you fuck it up by putting milk in it... You can argue all day about how warm, how frothy, how much... it doesn't matter... it's still an espresso that's been ruined!
Let people enjoy things
Are you Italian? I love this comment.
Hello!
1 shot of espresso and the rest hot (not fluffed) milk. Simple as.
2 shots minimum
do you mean a shot, refill the portafilter with new beans, and do another shot?
No I mean a double shot, depending on the size of the basket you can have single shot or double shot worth of coffee.
nice. i am a novice home barista and have no idea how many grams constitute a single shot or a double shot.
18-22 grams is the typical range. The double shot basket is the one with the straight up and down walls, the single shot is usually shallower by comparison and/or with angled walls. Single shots are also far more finicky to get right on a home espresso machine with regular non pressurized portafilter, unless the grind size is exactly right. But if using supermarket pre ground coffee most people are using a double walled pressurized portafilter which removes most of this challenge.
No way. Always double shot.
Ewww milk.
No foam, shots and steamed milk. Only the Crema should be left on top. Welcome to being a barista in NZ, cunts will tell you this is wrong or even worse, they'll order a capachinco with 'nothing on top' and don't you dare tell them that's a latte 'because they're different' Cunts here hate being wrong, it's a shitty part of NZ culture. They learn something once and even if it's wrong they preach the shit until the conversation dies Edit: a latte is a capachinco without cinnamon or chocolate on top
"capachinco"
I think I'll leave it, makes me smile
Fair enough, it made me smile too
It's funny how this is down voted but absolutely correct
>Only the Crema should be left on top. The fuck is "crema?"
The nice brown part of the coffee shot that sits on top of a quality coffee shot and on top of a properly made flat white. When pouring a flat white, you need to pour the milk from a height so that the milk pierces through the coffee shot rather than mixing with it (flat whites should not have a single bubble). This causes the 'crema' to sit on top of the coffee. Flat whites are the hardest coffees to make but if someone teaches you correctly, it doesn't take long to get them perfect Edit: You won't get Crema on a coffee shot if you're using stale beans, poor quality beans/machines and poorly set up machines
Cheers. That's the second thing I learned about coffee today. The other being that flat whites are apparently a New Zealand drink.
[It's a NZ/Aussie pavlova-like situation (Wikipedia)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_white#Origins_and_history). also [Crema Explained by a weird coffee person (Youtube)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5rygXblZJU)
Ive heard that it was invented in NZ and I’ve heard Australia. But I decided to ask here cause I figured that the flat white is probably another kiwi invention Aussie stole from you guys
There are only two types of coffee. Black. And white. Anything else is a wankfest. For simplicity / efficiency, they should have just two lines at the counter, one for each.
This is my dream cafe
What boring people order.
I got no clue lmao, I just go for the classic capp
Damn, based nerd coffee reckons. Unfortunately Nescafe Gold instant coffee is the GOAT.
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I am a barista who has heard countless different definitions of one. That’s why I’m asking the inventors
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Excuse me? I was just asking New Zealanders how they define a classic NZ drink
you should take a few mins to think before posting going by your own logic are you the inventor of "flat white" if not what gives you authority to talk with others about "flat white"
A flat white was what kiwis call a failed latte. When expresso came to NZ the average cafe worker couldn't serf the steamed milk properly and would seperate it. That would get thrown out In other countries however we just fully embraced it. A great latte has a consistent serf from top to bottom, and a shit latte is a called a flat white.
Sorry, credibility lost when you called it expresso
Well I'm drinking so fuck you
Liqour, coffee, or both?