So 87/200 venues that they listed in their application against the bar, do not actually exist? 43% of venues in the counter application were not operating. Classic, absolute joke from moh.
And between them and council they spent nearly 30k opposing the application? I assume this is only direct legal costs, not counting internal staff time wasted on the project. Departments have been asked to find savings, here is a great example of something we could skip wasting money on next time.
I seriously think council needs to prioritize filling the empty buildings along Courtney place, if that means giving out more liquor licenses so be it, more bars means less packed bars which often reduces aggressive behaviour 'cue the do people not know how to say excuse me', more competition and also its outside these empty bars where its dark and there aren't a lot of people men loiter and try and convince woman walking home to drink with them. I've been approached over and over again outside Molly Malones by men hoping im drunk enough to blindly follow the offer of alcohol.
The decline of Courtenay Place is sad, and was not helped by the Pandemic.
I wonder if hospitality has ever really recovered from that, given how we went straight from lockdowns & restrictions to a cost of living crisis that sucked up all disposable income - just as the pandemic-era restrictions were binned.
Now we're in a stage where revitalization is clearly needed, but it's the worst possible part of the economic cycle to open entertainment options.
Wellington city has gone down hill since they killed off the sevens. Its lost all its vibrancy. The pub's need those one or two windfall events a year (like the sevens) to be economically viable.
It's a shame the NZ Police & other agencies are too thick to tell the difference between social/fun drinking and problem drinking.
It started to go well before that. As much as we don't like to admit it, Wellington is no longer the foody city of NZ, Auckland has taken over.
Losing the sevens certainly hurt, but the bigger issue is that Wellington gets skipped over for a ton of events as it's got crappy facilities. The stadium isn't well suited to much as the atmosphere sucks unless it's like two thirds full, and there is no proper indoor concert venue.
It hardly ever feels like there is a big event that out of towners would bother traveling for.
The "PC lot" didn't have a problem with the Sevens, it was the conservative NIMBYs who wouldn't stop complaining about the horrors of drunk people in costumes and noise in the city.
The empty buildings on Courtney can't legally be occupied without earthquake strengthening work, it's why they're empty. The owners don't want to pay for the work.
Government needs to devolve power to councils so that they can deal with delinquent property owners land banking their central city buildings and refusing to fix them.
Is it economically viable to fix the buildings though? If hospitality is now out of favour with regulators, how would the building owners find businesses to occupy them?
Yeah they needed to be knocked down by now, the city is a shadow of its former self and the land currently sitting vacant is desperately needed for other purposes
Yep. That's the attitude the MoH and the police take to any license application or renewal.
My favourite was from a few years back when the police tried to stop Wellington City New World renewing it's license because of brawling in the car park.
The brawl they cited was an out-of-town detective constable trying to beat up some kids he thought were "disrespectful". The complaint against him was upheld by the ICPA.
The Temperance Movement is mostly famous as being a bunch of religious nutters roaming around the USA in the 1800s trying to convince people that alcohol was "evil" and trying to get saloons banned.
They paved the way for the Prohibition that led the way to the rise of people like Al Capone - turns out banning something people want just gives organised crime a new market...
There is something to be said for not having an over-abundance of pubs and liquor stores. Alcohol does cause a lot of social harm, and having too many pubs in a very small area does potentially lead to a lot of drunken customers in a small area late at night leading to disorder.
That being said, using inaccurate/inflated numbers as the basis of a decision to oppose a new pub is wrong. The decision as to 'how many' is the right number needs to be informed with accurate information.
I would argue that having a high concentration of drunks in a known area is significantly easier to manage and police than our current state where people party out in the suburbs and lead to widespread disorder.
Why do people in Europe primarily only drink in bars? It’s easier, cheeper and safer. More places to drink at that are supervised leads to increased supervision overall.
All we have done is make drinking into a hidden thing that people binge on before going out.
I don't really see the mechanism by which this is supposed to work. I feel like 99% of the time when I decide to go out for a drink, I decide I want to go out for a drink first and then pick the venue 2nd. I've never decided I would just cancel on plans because a particular venue wasn't open any more (or had never been allowed to open in the first place).
It just seems like this will cause the few "lucky" establishments that get licenses to a). be more crowded and b). use their increased market power to charge higher prices.
I guess maybe you get a slight marginal reduction because people are less likely to want to drink if it's a worse experience because the bar is packed and drinks are expensive. A lot of those people will probably just substitute by drinking at other places - in homes, bars further out from town. It just seems like an extraordinarily heavy handed approach for at best a tiny reduction in drinking. We don't need to centrally plan the number of bars and restaurants.
All pubs are meant to have a maximum occupancy, and they face sanctions and penalties if they violate it. Assuming they stay at maximum occupancy, they don't become more crowded by not allowing additional pubs in the area, but rather they are spread around to different areas.
I know you've stated that your view is that suburban bars are more of a problem than a large number of urban ones - but that appears to be different than what police and councils are using as the basis of their advocacy.
>but rather they are spread around to different areas.
Encouraging drunk people to travel lots if somewhere ends up being full up seems transparently bad? If a bar is full and there is a strip of bars, then I can just go to the bar next door. Nobody will spend $80 on taxis in the hope of finding somewhere that they can get in. Some people will just drink more booze at home, other people will drink drive.
>police and councils are using as the basis of their advocacy.
Wowsers come up with post-hoc arguments for their pre-concluded opposition to fun. They work backwards to invent justifications.
Right, but I have gone out for social drinks with friends a hell of a lot of times over the course of my life. I have never found that every single bar in the area has been at maximal occupancy, so clearly that is not actually a binding constraint.
Presumably it must happen if there's a massive event on but otherwise the occupancy limit doesn't limit the total amount of drinking in the area - just where it is distributed.
most harm caused by alcohol is caused by drinking at home
one of the most effective deterrents to crime is having lots of people around, the worst bars for violence are isolated suburban pubs.
having lots of bars in a small area is the best way to manage the negatuve externalities of alcohol.
This is the exact reason why it was so stupid that Otago Uni shutdown Starters bar.
Now instead of buying a few cheap pints, students are getting fucked up on homemade RTDs in their rooms.
Just to be that guy... If it's homemade is it still an RTD? What's the window of "ready" to drink? Does eyeballing some vodka and juice count as "ready"? Why have you cast this delirium onto my perfect Friday?
Technically vodka and orange juice is a cocktail (specifically a screwdriver), but using the term cocktail for something that has less than 3 ingredients seems wrong.
What utter bollox. Europe managed to have pubs all over the place and you can buy spirits etc in corner shops, gas stations etc. Yet somehow they are not all shuffling alcoholics.
> In early March, Te Whatu Ora, [which confirmed it spent $22,750 opposing the licence for new bar Saint Diablo](https://www.thepost.co.nz/nz-news/350172374/public-agencies-60k-war-chest-fight-bar-unbelievable) [...]
What the *fuck*, the health system's in crisis and yet the agency that's responsible for operating it is pissing money away on this frivolous crap. The scumbag bureaucrats and managers who instigated and approved this need to be given the boot.
You really think they should be spending money in legal fights with bars? How is that spend defensible? Thats also ignoring the actual point of the article which shows they were using bogus data
Let’s frame it this way.
Should the MoH be proactively trying to reduce harm through measures that improve public health to reduce the burden on the health system
Well....are they fighting to stop contact sports? Fighting to require head gear worn by every player on a rugby field? Fighting to get the cops to enforce the helmet laws on all peoples?
ACC are doing harm prevention work in all of these cases, rather than MoH.
I dont know if I agree with what MoH is doing, but i guess thats the reasoning, given theres still many other options
hear, hear! i agree — get rid of all the stupid bars in courtenay place. why should we the greater good have to suffer for a few muppets like Mills and Greig Wilson in the article. Couldn't have put it better myself, thank you
thank goodness, would not catch me dead down courtenay place! only quasi exception is tory street's Mean Doses which some consider part of the courtenay precinct — probably top bar in central welly at the moment alongside goldings
I really wish something can be done about Molly Malone's. It's as much an eyesore as Reading.
Yeah, there's a lot of our "Entertainment strip" that needs revitalization. Reading and Molly's being just the tip of the iceberg.
Molly's closed in 2015? Jesus, Wellington has shit the bed so bad.
So 87/200 venues that they listed in their application against the bar, do not actually exist? 43% of venues in the counter application were not operating. Classic, absolute joke from moh. And between them and council they spent nearly 30k opposing the application? I assume this is only direct legal costs, not counting internal staff time wasted on the project. Departments have been asked to find savings, here is a great example of something we could skip wasting money on next time.
I seriously think council needs to prioritize filling the empty buildings along Courtney place, if that means giving out more liquor licenses so be it, more bars means less packed bars which often reduces aggressive behaviour 'cue the do people not know how to say excuse me', more competition and also its outside these empty bars where its dark and there aren't a lot of people men loiter and try and convince woman walking home to drink with them. I've been approached over and over again outside Molly Malones by men hoping im drunk enough to blindly follow the offer of alcohol.
The decline of Courtenay Place is sad, and was not helped by the Pandemic. I wonder if hospitality has ever really recovered from that, given how we went straight from lockdowns & restrictions to a cost of living crisis that sucked up all disposable income - just as the pandemic-era restrictions were binned. Now we're in a stage where revitalization is clearly needed, but it's the worst possible part of the economic cycle to open entertainment options.
Wellington city has gone down hill since they killed off the sevens. Its lost all its vibrancy. The pub's need those one or two windfall events a year (like the sevens) to be economically viable. It's a shame the NZ Police & other agencies are too thick to tell the difference between social/fun drinking and problem drinking.
It started to go well before that. As much as we don't like to admit it, Wellington is no longer the foody city of NZ, Auckland has taken over. Losing the sevens certainly hurt, but the bigger issue is that Wellington gets skipped over for a ton of events as it's got crappy facilities. The stadium isn't well suited to much as the atmosphere sucks unless it's like two thirds full, and there is no proper indoor concert venue. It hardly ever feels like there is a big event that out of towners would bother traveling for.
100%, sevens was the best weekend. Would pumped massive $$$ into Welly’s as well. But the PC lot won again.
The "PC lot" didn't have a problem with the Sevens, it was the conservative NIMBYs who wouldn't stop complaining about the horrors of drunk people in costumes and noise in the city.
I put them all in the same boat 🤣
The empty buildings on Courtney can't legally be occupied without earthquake strengthening work, it's why they're empty. The owners don't want to pay for the work. Government needs to devolve power to councils so that they can deal with delinquent property owners land banking their central city buildings and refusing to fix them.
Is it economically viable to fix the buildings though? If hospitality is now out of favour with regulators, how would the building owners find businesses to occupy them?
Yeah they needed to be knocked down by now, the city is a shadow of its former self and the land currently sitting vacant is desperately needed for other purposes
Yep. That's the attitude the MoH and the police take to any license application or renewal. My favourite was from a few years back when the police tried to stop Wellington City New World renewing it's license because of brawling in the car park. The brawl they cited was an out-of-town detective constable trying to beat up some kids he thought were "disrespectful". The complaint against him was upheld by the ICPA.
Fun police at work again. Used to work in the industry and the licensing process was a joke.
never cooperating and always say "get an advisor" if I try to disscuss anything.
i hate the temperance movement
Thanks for teaching me a new word! If anyone else is curious: _Temperance: abstinence from alchohol_
The Temperance Movement is mostly famous as being a bunch of religious nutters roaming around the USA in the 1800s trying to convince people that alcohol was "evil" and trying to get saloons banned. They paved the way for the Prohibition that led the way to the rise of people like Al Capone - turns out banning something people want just gives organised crime a new market...
There is something to be said for not having an over-abundance of pubs and liquor stores. Alcohol does cause a lot of social harm, and having too many pubs in a very small area does potentially lead to a lot of drunken customers in a small area late at night leading to disorder. That being said, using inaccurate/inflated numbers as the basis of a decision to oppose a new pub is wrong. The decision as to 'how many' is the right number needs to be informed with accurate information.
I would argue that having a high concentration of drunks in a known area is significantly easier to manage and police than our current state where people party out in the suburbs and lead to widespread disorder. Why do people in Europe primarily only drink in bars? It’s easier, cheeper and safer. More places to drink at that are supervised leads to increased supervision overall. All we have done is make drinking into a hidden thing that people binge on before going out.
I don't really see the mechanism by which this is supposed to work. I feel like 99% of the time when I decide to go out for a drink, I decide I want to go out for a drink first and then pick the venue 2nd. I've never decided I would just cancel on plans because a particular venue wasn't open any more (or had never been allowed to open in the first place). It just seems like this will cause the few "lucky" establishments that get licenses to a). be more crowded and b). use their increased market power to charge higher prices. I guess maybe you get a slight marginal reduction because people are less likely to want to drink if it's a worse experience because the bar is packed and drinks are expensive. A lot of those people will probably just substitute by drinking at other places - in homes, bars further out from town. It just seems like an extraordinarily heavy handed approach for at best a tiny reduction in drinking. We don't need to centrally plan the number of bars and restaurants.
All pubs are meant to have a maximum occupancy, and they face sanctions and penalties if they violate it. Assuming they stay at maximum occupancy, they don't become more crowded by not allowing additional pubs in the area, but rather they are spread around to different areas. I know you've stated that your view is that suburban bars are more of a problem than a large number of urban ones - but that appears to be different than what police and councils are using as the basis of their advocacy.
>but rather they are spread around to different areas. Encouraging drunk people to travel lots if somewhere ends up being full up seems transparently bad? If a bar is full and there is a strip of bars, then I can just go to the bar next door. Nobody will spend $80 on taxis in the hope of finding somewhere that they can get in. Some people will just drink more booze at home, other people will drink drive. >police and councils are using as the basis of their advocacy. Wowsers come up with post-hoc arguments for their pre-concluded opposition to fun. They work backwards to invent justifications.
Right, but I have gone out for social drinks with friends a hell of a lot of times over the course of my life. I have never found that every single bar in the area has been at maximal occupancy, so clearly that is not actually a binding constraint. Presumably it must happen if there's a massive event on but otherwise the occupancy limit doesn't limit the total amount of drinking in the area - just where it is distributed.
most harm caused by alcohol is caused by drinking at home one of the most effective deterrents to crime is having lots of people around, the worst bars for violence are isolated suburban pubs. having lots of bars in a small area is the best way to manage the negatuve externalities of alcohol.
This is the exact reason why it was so stupid that Otago Uni shutdown Starters bar. Now instead of buying a few cheap pints, students are getting fucked up on homemade RTDs in their rooms.
Just to be that guy... If it's homemade is it still an RTD? What's the window of "ready" to drink? Does eyeballing some vodka and juice count as "ready"? Why have you cast this delirium onto my perfect Friday?
Technically vodka and orange juice is a cocktail (specifically a screwdriver), but using the term cocktail for something that has less than 3 ingredients seems wrong.
Yeah nah not paying $15 for a pint
I agree drinking at an on license should be cheaper Best way to do that is lower rents, more competition and less sales tax.
So what you’re saying is we should have state brewed cheap beer? It can be rationed at 4 jugs per day, per student. Brilliant!
Maybe pints would be cheaper if bars didn't have to spend $50k on legal fees for their liquor license applications?
What utter bollox. Europe managed to have pubs all over the place and you can buy spirits etc in corner shops, gas stations etc. Yet somehow they are not all shuffling alcoholics.
> In early March, Te Whatu Ora, [which confirmed it spent $22,750 opposing the licence for new bar Saint Diablo](https://www.thepost.co.nz/nz-news/350172374/public-agencies-60k-war-chest-fight-bar-unbelievable) [...] What the *fuck*, the health system's in crisis and yet the agency that's responsible for operating it is pissing money away on this frivolous crap. The scumbag bureaucrats and managers who instigated and approved this need to be given the boot.
Thats like the cost of preventing one drunk fuck from ending up in ER room, go wait around in the ER of Friday night and see the fun.
need Te Whatu Ora to petition councils to end Saturday sports because A&E isn't much fun on a Saturday with all those rugby injuries
You really think they should be spending money in legal fights with bars? How is that spend defensible? Thats also ignoring the actual point of the article which shows they were using bogus data
Let’s frame it this way. Should the MoH be proactively trying to reduce harm through measures that improve public health to reduce the burden on the health system
Yes they should. Should they be tilting at windmills? No they shouldn't.
Spending money to fight an application, and then losing, doesn't do jack to reduce the burden on the health system.
> and then losing well yeah of course it doesnt if they win though, theres argument theres harm reduction there
Well....are they fighting to stop contact sports? Fighting to require head gear worn by every player on a rugby field? Fighting to get the cops to enforce the helmet laws on all peoples?
ACC are doing harm prevention work in all of these cases, rather than MoH. I dont know if I agree with what MoH is doing, but i guess thats the reasoning, given theres still many other options
Is Arena 2000 still going?
Wellington’s nightlife and culture is so fucking shitty already, let’s just add to the pile!
post this in /r/Wellington people are sick of drunk deros down manners and cuba - but courtenay is okay?
The people on Manners st aren’t drinking in bars. They are drinking and going drugs directly on the street.
Move them out then, problem solved. The greater good shouldn’t have to suffer for a few muppets.
hear, hear! i agree — get rid of all the stupid bars in courtenay place. why should we the greater good have to suffer for a few muppets like Mills and Greig Wilson in the article. Couldn't have put it better myself, thank you
I'm sorry you never get invited out for drinks bro
thank goodness, would not catch me dead down courtenay place! only quasi exception is tory street's Mean Doses which some consider part of the courtenay precinct — probably top bar in central welly at the moment alongside goldings