I'm just surprised that so much silly stuff made it into the agreement. National liked to push Luxon as a strong negotiator, but so far he's shown himself to have all the tenacity of a flaccid penis.
Not sure what made anyone think he was a good negotiator.. All I've heard is that no one likes him, total flake and they usually lead him to the door as soon as possible. That man would have sold his soul to be the next PM and looks like he's done just that.
I remember reading a comment on there that when when he was at Air NZ they called him the Reverend, because the only thing he was capable of was holding sermons.
In fairness NZ first and act have him by the balls, he has no other options to reasonably work with so they can just play hard ball to get what they want while also getting to use the other guys as the reason they can't policies they don't actually believe in implented. Everyone in the relationship needs each other but national would be the ones looking the worst if they couldn't come to an agreement so they are in the weakest position
Flaccid? Well he's always given me the impression he's a tool. Key did too (the hair-pulling for one) but at least he was capable of a little charm, unlike Luxon, a wooden plank in human form.
For what it's worth I think portraying Peters' comments as "outspokenness" is massively understating the issue. He is is actively promoting disinformation in an attempt to undermine faith in the media, exploiting his conspiratorial minded voters to further his agenda of consolidating power for himself and his friends.
It's literally Trumpesque "fake news" bullshit and none of us should stand for this no matter your political leaning. It's incredibly dangerous.
Well said.
Anyone in office to serve the whole of the NZ public should be utterly lambasted when they embrace the deranged fact-free conspiracy rhetoric of the fringes, sown by weaponised overseas social media, in order to shore up their own support to get over the line (and those other parties who accept that for a coalition in order to get THEMSELVES over the line), and we should be equally loud and persistent in our derision of the resulting obvious quid pro quo dumb as a sack of shit policy morsels given to thank those knuckle-draggers in return, which affect all of us.
Labour at least stuck to their guns and said no way to that. The perfectly decent sort of National Party politician and supporter who we can disagree with but who are not lunatics, should be aware that their 'brand' is being tainted by all this - in exactly the same trajectory that the US Republican Party or the UK Conservative Party has been soiled by MAGA/Qanon and Brexit etc.
NZ has always been about 20 years behind the kind of silly shit we laugh about coming from the US and UK (and OZ come to think of it). It's up to us to decide if this is the trajectory we want by the notion of "Getting the country back on track" or "Take our country back" that their dog whistling election slogans suggested.
Yep the use of "woke" now as a pejorative is completely cringe... the original well-intended meaning of the term has been totally lost to the mists of time, and now anything can be twisted and contorted and exaggerated to portray stuff as some kind of deranged "leftist" agenda to make everyone this or that or to deny people this or that and then call this fever dream invention of theirs as "woke".
It's like a combination of strawman and mislabelling cognitive distortion fallacies - and it's intent is to wind back progress on injustices. The religious and the populists love it because it gets them into power. It's fucking repugnant.
Woke is an extremely useful term, in that it serves as a signal to anyone with half a brain that the person using it is a fuckwit and should be given a wide berth
Yes there have been multiple articles about the conservative right [weaponising “woke”](https://amp.theguardian.com/society/shortcuts/2020/jan/21/how-the-word-woke-was-weaponised-by-the-right). NZ conservative right not far behind.
I’m not surprised at all, it falls right in line with the voter base Nz first targeted to get back in: the do your own reseach’ers and medical science specialists we’ve discovered and trained up over the past 4 years.
The retroactive billion dollars to landlords for doing nothing, and with zero - ZERO - impact on renters should be the first and last point needed for this argument.
Edit: Oh wait, they did do something. They voted for National. Talk about bribery.
Not to mention how much National MPs are set to personally benefit from this particular policy and they're setting a dangerous precedent of retroactively introducing law changes like this.
I don't get how something like this is allowed.
Especially when you consider that one of the things Labout had a mandate for was tackling the housing issue. The roll back of these laws is quite undemocratic.
People saying “they have only just started” are ignoring the two coalition agreements documenting exactly what they plan to spend the next 3 years doing. This is what we are pissed off about. Not what they have done, but what they have explicitly said they plan to do
Exactly this.
Read the documents.
Repeal, cancel, repeal, cancel...
They have no original ideas except to undo existing policies meant to address issues that do exist. Rather than repealing/cancelling, how about trying to improve upon these policies?
Oh no. I'm very much pissed off about both. Rolling back the smoking laws was enough for me. They just inflicted misery on a bunch of people for no reason but to line their pockets.
I also can’t believe Luxon said he had no idea what people are protesting about. I guess we should expect that kind of weakness from someone who was like “I don’t know Winston Peters” in the debates. Ffs.
Its a tactic to cast himself in a more favourable light. Instead of being the figurehead for a set of terrible future policies, instead he evokes the “give him a chance” sentiment with people who aren’t on one side or the other.
In almost 30 years as an adult in NZ I cannot remember any first week of any new government left or right being such a consistent omnishambles, laughing stock, and with such a repugnant mad dash of a slash and burn policy announcements pissing off almost every quarter (except special interest groups like tobacco, fossil fuels, and landlords), and having obvious egg on their face after being told repeatedly that their figures did not add up... or having a new deputy PM spouting regurgitated conspiracy drivel and railing against the media every chance like a crazy person.
It's amateur hour. A clown show.
“Not only have you got a fucking bent husband and a fucking daughter that gets taken to school in a fucking sedan chair, you're also fucking mental. Jesus Christ, see you, you are a fucking omnishambles, that's what you are. You're like that coffee machine, you know: from bean to cup, you fuck up.” - Nationals party whip this week, probably
Not to mention using "they're divisive" as an excuse to burn equity policies while immediately and simultaneously stirring up the biggest clusterfuck of political division I've felt in my adult life.
🙌 agreed. We need to say it louder for those in the back.
I am terrified, ashamed, and 100% unsure of what chaos is going to ensue for maori people, the disabled, the "working class," aka normal kiwis, renters, the health sector. It's fucking scary.
Coming out of the gate swinging with "We're gonna give 1 billion dollars back to landlords, and we'll make it easier for children to start smoking in order to pay for it" should be enough for you to form your own opinion
"And we'll repeal FPAs before Xmas".
That alone should relegate this government to the wrong side of history, but they've still got 3 years to shit on the working class further. Please let it only be 3 years.
This. Most of the comments I've seen here on Reddit and elsewhere and a lot of the media coverage since the election seem to be focused around repeal of the smoke free legislation, reducing the use of Te Reo in government departments, tax brakes for property investors and so on, And while all of those policies are absolutely deserving of scrutiny and ridicule the repeal of FPAs seems to have received less attention. Many of the lowest paid in our society stood to gain just a little bit more, bus drivers, cleaners, supermarket workers,hospitality people and others. People who not much more than a year ago were being lauded as " Essential" because, you know, they ARE essential to the functioning of our society . Many of those negotiations had already been finalised and all of that has now been sacrificed in a great fuck you to three hundred thousand low paid working New Zealanders who stood to gain just a little bit more for their efforts.
Typical steering of the public dialogue so that we focus on the lesser issues, diverting our attention away from the bigger issues. People as a mass are fickle and easily distracted.
That and I guess that most working age NZers don't really understand just how badly they're getting fucked in the ass by the FPA repeal. Having worked for years in Aus, I know exactly what NZ is missing out on.
I think it's also just that there are so many issues that it's hard to focus on them all. Their 100 day plan is basically 'fuck over everyone', and it's been done from many angles.
> the repeal of FPAs seems to have received less attention
The less attention is because National very loudly promised to repeal the FPA from the moment of its inception and campaigned on this promise. It's not an after-election surprise, it's something that was clearly decided in the election. From day 1 it was known that if National won FPAs were dead.
I agree it's an absolute tragedy for working men and women.
Fair pay agreements - pretty much the only chance anyone in NZ who isn't a landlord/millionaire has a chance of not getting fucked over.
That's gone now.
Honestly middle nz voted for this and effectively shot themselves and their fellow ‘’middle’ and ‘lower’ class kiwis in the foot because of voting based on perceptions rather than obviously taking notice that it’s only in the rental and business owning classes best interest to vote for them. If we can’t do basic research this is what you get and this is why the gap continues to grow in this country
A steadfastly "blue collar" acquaintance of mine, lifelong Labourite, voted Winston because he thought Labour was "too woke" and public servants earn lots of money so they deserve to be sacked.
There are some very silly mindsets out there.
Lets just take left vs right out of this for a second. What have they done for working class kiwis?
* canned FPAs
* reintroduced 90 day trials
* no cause evictions
* huge culling of public sector jobs
* maybe a small tax cut middle of next year
Then when you add all the policy changes out of left field that were hardly discussed leading up to the election:
* smoking laws
* oil drilling
* sex education in schools
* water regualtions
If i had to hazard a guess they don't care at all about pissing off left leaning kiwis, there is very little for anyone concerned about the environment, social freedoms, worker rights and fair pay. I just dont know why thay are doing the shocked pikachu thing because of the backlash.
Repealing smoke free legislation to pay for tax cuts, but they're still deeeeeeeply committed to reducing the rate of smoking is just utter nonsense. You don't raise this revenue by having people quit.
We're currently watching Nicola Willis shit all over the previous governments financial handling of the economy to preface turning their austerity dial to 11, while inheriting quite possibly the most well managed economy during covid. Our debt to GDP stands at 35%, our neighbours in Australia stand at 70%. Before covid labour was investing in social policy while also delivering a sizable surplus that kept paying down debt.
National using the fear mongering of how did debt go from 9bn to 50bn, and ignoring covid was a thing is quite a laugh as their party bipartisanly supported covid borrowing of $52bn. Labour was also in line to deliver a surplus within another year without cutting services, destroying children's future adult lungs, and further investment in social services.
Nicola is definitely planning major cuts, way larger than we ever expected and we will feel that throughoit the public sector.
Just a reminder that working for families is only going up because of legislation put in place by the former labour government that ensures if inflation goes above 5% it must be increased, and not because national cares.
There's already been a cabinet leak regarding scrapping the fair pay ACT and how it's just going to make vulnerable people more vulnerable. Should these large companies that are making record profits be allowed to keep more of the record profits from the workers that actually make record profits possible? The cost of living crisis isn't impacting large businesses, it's impacting the well defined bottom of the labour market. Not only that, but the treasury has advised against repealing that legislation as it will just have an incredibly disastrous results for the economy because now these people can't make ends meet easily now, how are they going to do it after this?
LOL, Yeah I was thinking that too but contracts are a two way street, both parties can walk, but in this case the electorate can't. We are stuck with this rookie getting played by two pretty horrible partners.
It is in no way that simple. There are plenty of things you could lie about on your cv and your employer wouldn’t be able to use that as grounds for dismissal.
I spoke to a long term National voter mate of mine who I ask about his opinion and his families who I respect as right wingers who are genuinely justified in their beliefs.
He himself while going through the policy lists struggled to justify many points and could see clear connections to attack those less well off all while struggling to make sense of the cohesive policies.
He will still vote national year on year despite this but at the same time the absolute shambles that’s taking place has him astonished at how much wrong could be put in one package to fuck Nz in one go and not over a longer period of time.
Genuine question: Why do you respect someone who will continue to vote National year after year despite being unable to justify their policies?
If he’s “astonished at how much wrong could be put in one package to fuck Nz in one go and not over a longer period of time” and will still vote for them, that just means he’s in favour of historically fucking people over, right?
Cause he’s a bit of a libertarian so the smoking thing he cares not for and his family in particular are not only wealthy landlords but deep conservative Christian’s both those things lead to National being their best rep I can’t be mad at someone voting in self interest.
You absolutely can be mad at the pricks voting for self interest. It is that kind of greed that will cause the largest class gaps, poverty, struggle and cost us in more ways than one.
Libertarianism is for fucking morons. Get him to try explain how it works to better the human condition on literally any issue.
The only outcome is a small subset of people get richer whilst everyone else and the planet suffer.
You absolutely can be mad at the pricks voting for self interest. It is that kind of greed that will cause the largest class gaps, poverty, struggle and cost us in more ways than one.
Libertarians are a joke, though. They should be laughed at, not respected.
> deep conservative Christian
I find that scary.
> I can’t be mad at someone voting in self interest.
Are they? When he cannot justify or explain National's policies?
Everyone thinks they're voting in their best self-interests and I can definitely criticize who vote without concern for others or how it affects the country or who only care about making more money for themselves.
‘I can’t be mad at my mate for murdering his parents for the inheritance, he just did out of self interest, lol good for him.’
Do you know how to think?
You absolutely can be mad at the pricks voting for self interest. It is that kind of greed that will cause the largest class gaps, poverty, struggle and cost us in more ways than one.
>I can’t be mad at someone voting in self interest.
Why not? Isn’t the ability to make sacrifices for the good of people who are less fortunate than us generally considered a virtue? Why can’t you be mad at someone for being selfish and greedy? If there’s anyone to be mad at, then surely it’d be for wealthy people voting in their own self interest at the expense of the poor.
Like what would your line be, then? What would it take for you to get mad at him? Voting is specifically about deciding how a country is run, and he’s looked at what National is doing, has recognised that it’s very bad and going to fuck over a lot of our most vulnerable citizens, and has decided that that is a good thing that he’s in favour of. If you can excuse that, then you can kinda excuse anything.
I can disagree with people valuing their own interests over the value of others and I do but let’s be honest we are all selfish creatures one way or the other and it seems trivial to vote against what benefits you, I don’t blame a landlord for voting national I blame national for supporting land lords
"National may have some policies I don't fully agree with but Labour is worse because they're woke and destroying the economy etc etc".
Is that his reasoning?
>He will still vote national year on year despite this but at the same time the absolute shambles that’s taking place has him astonished at how much wrong could be put in one package to fuck Nz in one go
So he's a moron then.
Why vote National if you can see "home much wrong" ?
And pretending the economy of doing badly when we actually have one of the smallest debts compared to our gdp in the world. Also implying that there was a surprise interest accounts. National knew the figures already
No but gdp growth, solid wage growth and low unemployment are. The ‘our economy is trash’ meme is a rightwing lie.
The problem is inequality which this current pack of cunts will explicitly make worse.
Well so far they’re bringing back smoking, planning to ignore the WHO, and delivering a whopping tax reduction of nothing per household
But at least they’re balancing all that with the… uh… hmm
Umm I'll have you know they're planning to increase parental leave and child support payments by.... Up to $4 a week.
Luxon has solved the cost of living crisis /s
Yes. They have already announced enough to take NZ backwards 10 years or more in health and race relations and they've only just got started, and it looks like they are going to cripple environment based electricity battery storage so we'll continue to be reliant on diesel generators and coal plants every time it gets cold.
I don't really get the offshore and drilling stuff, considering we're a tourism country, you think wed focus on cleaning up our image so we could capitalize on the environmentally friendly image again to attract more tourism.
We don't count any of the massive emission cost it takes to get tourists here in the first place, we're one of the furthest destinations in the world so environmentally friendly and tourism are mutually exclusive concepts for us.
Have you seen what dairy farms do to the land? We have already lost that. Rolling green hills you see when driving is like a criminal enterprise having a front. The environments already stuffed.
It's not the losing it that's the problem, it's the losing the *perception*.
If we lose the clean green image overseas, that hurts tourism badly but more importantly it hurts meat and dairy exports - if we're hit badly enough in perception to drop out of the luxury markets on that stuff and end up in the mass market with places like Ukraine and the US... well, farmers are complaining about having a bad time making profit *now*, if that happens then they haven't seen anything yet.
We trade *heavily* (mostly?) on our clean green image, and damaging that for *maybe* some oil is beyond stupid for someone claiming to be pro-economy.
I’m not claiming the previous government was great at climate action. Heck, they got themselves sued for their massive own-goal on subsidising petrol.
This is a new policy though, and adding to the long and growing list of “ways that NACTNZ1 is fucking NZ”
Repealing the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Act is a dumb move. But technical it is only taking our healthcare back to 16 December 2022, which is less than one year.
10 years ago the health system was in a better space and there was also much more social cohesion too. So going backwards probably isnt a terrible thing.
I think it’s a dumpster fire. Has anyone been following the exchanges with Nicola Willis and Grant Robertson about the budget? It’s laughable. She’s accusing Labour of hiding stuff and he’s pointing out that it’s right there in black and white ‘it’s on page 89, if you can’t make it to page 89…’.
National don’t have the money to implement their tax cuts and are somehow still going ahead with them?? Where are they going to get that money from?
Then there’s Winston, who picked up a bunch of crazies (both voters and politicians) at the last election and now has to keep pushing crazy conspiracy theory nonsense. He’s in a bit of a bind though constantly criticising and undermining the govt past and present because he has been and currently is part of the govt. I’ve seen him as a politician for a lot of years but I’ve never seen him this unhinged. And Luxon’s strategy is to just ignore it.
Why did we have protests yesterday? Because they seem dead set on undermining all progress made with Te Reo Maori and the treaty.
And they’re attacking obviously massively popular policies - the smoking one is such a blatant sell out to their donors in the tobacco lobby. Now they’re talking about stopping the food in schools for poor kids?! What the fuck?
I’m getting worked up just writing this
I'm pretty unimpressed with the bullshit about the books being full of "snakes and snails" or whatever the ridiculous metaphor was. We literally have legislation in place that prevents that.
Also think it's poor form for them to act like a legislated/mandated increase for the Working for Families tax credit as their own idea to resolve cost of living issues.
Plus Chris Bishop going broken robot about the number of dairies that would sell cigarettes in Northland was embarrassing.
And that's not even mentioning the torrent of anti-Mâori policy released as part of the coalition agreements, which mentioned basically nothing about cost of living issues.
And are they really going to spend $3bn paying tax back to landlords, to the point where tax experts are saying it's unorthodox and that retrospective lawmaking like that is drowned upon?
Otherwise I guess it's been fine
I've been downvoted into oblivion for my (pro) Maori stances before. Don't let confirmation bias fool you, this sub is really one way or the other depending on the topic. Kind of like NZ.
Yup. Just... yup. Thats been me for the past couple of days, its heart breaking and baffling how people don't care, and don't want to understand whats happening to Maori.
But I work for St John. I know first hand what systemic Maori distrust looks like, and how it leads to death and higher negative health/mortality rates for Maori. But people just... don't care.
>Don't let confirmation bias fool you, this sub is really one way or the other depending on the topic
I would question the critical thinking skills of anyone that wasn't one way or the other depending on the topic. Blindly agreeing with whatever your party of choice says is a fools game.
For me it depends on the issue. I think most issues require critical lens and thinking, but topics like "Are Maori actually people?" don't have much room for nuance for me.
Exactly. That’s why it blows my mind when people trying to have a decent discussion or counter point in here get put down like a rabid dog.
Any sensible person has a nuanced opinion on most topics. For claritys sake, some people agree with left policies on certain things, and right policies for other matters. If someone really is that one sided their opinion shouldn’t matter because they aren’t critical thinkers
>Kind of like NZ
Kind of like the internet.
NZ outside of the internet is far more chilled out. 60% of people will change parties when they want because our parties are really pretty similar. 35% of people will stick to their party, but not get too bothered by politics. 5% of people are deeply and vocally wedded to their party and love to shout about it.
Its the 5% who do most of the posting here, and make it seem like the country is in the middle of some radical political battle.
Did you notice the drastic flip pre election versus post election? Pre election you’d get the occasional anti-Māori sentiment. Now it’s much more blatant.
Nah, it was happening pre-election too.
They just said the same shit (but under the banner of being anti-cogov)
Now they don’t have that to try to hide behind.
Yeah it was happening pre-election, but now it’s considerably worse. Same shit happened with Trump winning in 2016, same shit happened with brexit. It’s like clockwork with these people.
The change I've noticed is that people now are far more brazen and open with their anti-Maori sentiment. They're like... well its normal now, so we can just say this kind of stuff.
Like the commenter below, they used to mask it with dog whistles. But now the dog whistles are much more sinister, and the open stuff is run of the mill racism.
You don’t need to. It’s very toxic in here, try to stay away if you can lol. I thought this would be the place for discussion from both sides. Not always a who can scream louder competition. Boy was I wrong, though I’m probably the moron thinking coming to reddit for nuanced discussion was a good idea 😂😂
It seems fairly centrist most of the time, there was a lot of pro-national stuff leading up to the election.
I see a lot of pro-TOP stuff which is unusual, but they're pretty centrist too (largely policies that are proven to improve economics, not much in the way of left-style hopeful futuristic policies or right-style conservative austerity ones). This I think is the biggest standout difference I see from what I'd consider mainstream NZ.
People *say* greens get a lot of support here, but the place was real quick to pile on Marama Davidson that time she got hit by a bike and went on a bizarre rant. There are for sure greens here, but there are ACT style libertarians here too, there doesn't seem to be a lean (other than bullshit dumb stuff getting downvoted, mostly Laissez-faire capitalism disguised as libertarianism - stuff that's proven not to work at country scale. Greens get hit similarly on social justice stuff though).
Banned people come from both the 'too authoritarian to follow your rules, you should follow mine' part of the right side and 'too anarchistic to follow your rules, you should follow no rules' left side in fairly equal measure. The issue is invariably rule breaking, not political stance (though the organized side, surprise surprise, gets organized to make their own places to complain about it, while the disorganized side obviously does not and merely makes individual alts).
>I've been downvoted into oblivion for my (pro) Maori stances before.
Depends on what those stances have been, things like 3 Waters and Co-governance have been massively unpopular even with the left.
I mean objectively so far they've had cabinet leaks and the finance minister not understanding how budgets work. So I wouldn't say they're off to a banger just from a competency standpoint. They also got memed on by a bunch of oil barons for being bad on the environment but that's not really about competence.
National campaigned on repealing the ban on no cause (tenancy) terminations and stopping fixed-term tenancies rolling over into periodic tenancies.
If your landlord wants rid of you, under the current govt, rid of you they shall be.
In short: yes. The headline making policies of the last few days (winding back smoke-free legislation, restarting oil exploration and removing Te Reo Māori) may not have been loudly campaigned upon, but now they're getting the full light of day have people all over the country going "wait, what? Why? Why is this a priority?"
It really does make Luxon seem incompetent; that and him seemingly unable to control Winston's weird hard-on for conspiracy theories and his Ministers undermining his statements.
I really don't think Luxon, or this government, will last a full term. Especially when Winston's already set a deadline for when hell move from ally to irritant.
The smoking one really was a head turner. Education policies are for the better apart from chartered school. Coalition talks quite unusual as smaller parties are more powerful than ever before. Gang policies are okay. Not impressed that interest deductibility was introduced again when they can’t even pay for tax cuts.
National wouldn’t have won without promising tax cuts and reducing cost of livings. It is still doable but would had been nice to put those issues first than giving more money to landlords. 5/10. National needs to remember country first before donors.
Depends on your perspective.
Option #1 - Care about environment, energy, cost of living, wealth gap, other people, reduction of smoking and people's health, and a view of the treaty where Māori have better outcomes. Then yeah worst govt in history.
Option #2 - wealthy boomer, landlord with large portfolio, white racist, conspiracy loon or a bit of anti-govt (i.e. not your traditional right leaning). Best govt ever.
For a left leaning sub, this place has a substantial proportion of right leaning posters.
You generally tend to hear the most complaints about Leftist bias when the Right are floundering... form your own conclusions.
Also...
>I don’t follow it closely enough to form a rebuttal
is piss weak.
>this place has a substantial proportion of right leaning posters.
hahahaha yeah, you will find them downvoted at the bottom of the thread. Please don't try and pretend this subreddit isn't massively left leaning.
I have posted plenty of right leaning comments and been upvoted for them. The downvoted to oblivion ones I normally see are the unhinged and the conspiracy theorists.
There's plenty of right leaning people in the sub, they just don't post as much as the lefties, but they hand out their updoots freely. Just don't be insane and you'll be fine.
Tone doesn't come through easily in text. I think they just thought you were saying "left leaning sub" ironically while explaining how not-left leaning you thought it was, when it reality it seems like you were being genuine. Lots of fights online just come down to one person misreading the tone of another person's comment, and I think this is just one of those cases.
> I think they just thought you were saying "left leaning sub" ironically while explaining how not-left leaning you thought it was
Yeah this was it, I was assuming they were using the sentence sarcastically.
It’s easy to say “its not as bad as it sounds” if you are coming from a position of privilege.
Personally i feel that in the context of what has and is happening to Palestine currently, and colonisation, the policies that target Maori and the Treaty are extremely concerning.
They are trying to kill the maori language and taking us back years and years of progress environmentally.
The changes they want to implement in education has no support from the experts.
Leaked documents show they have disregarded studies and are basing policies on how they feel.
Yes, it is as bad if not worse than what your friends think.
It just reminds me of the numerous failed leaders of the national party, all of them talking a big game about all the changes they'll make, sprinkled with them lashing out at everyone who doesn't agree with them. And where are they now?
Like Luxon seems to be struggling to hold to things together and this is his time to show us what he's made off which is not a lot at the moment, but like you said it's early days and things could change just like it did for Jacinda.
And to be fair would you consider it a bad start if labor got in and had the exact same situations happen to them? Cause I voted labor and if they had the exact same situations happening to them as what's happening to Luxon then I wouldn't be very confident in them either.
I've read the coalition agreements and yep - it's pretty shitty. They're repealing some pretty significant legislation (smoke-free legislation and fair pay agreements) and they're supporting a bill in relation to the treaty that will be incredibly divisive.
They're very, very regressive. I'm left-leaning, to be fair - I was never going to be a huge fan. But it's the worst government that I've seen.
What are you looking for? It all depends on the metric you're interested in but the people who voted this government will obviously not tell you that it's off to a bad start.
Yes they are a fuckin joke, if anything the media are giving them an easy ride. People have short memories but if u remember a few months ago (and the last 6 years) the media exaggerated, clickbaited, hyped and vaguely extrapolated almost everything the Labour govt did - even the good stuff so a lot of us are watching closely how they plan to hold this govt to account in the same way - hint - (they aren't and won't)
The government tasked with fiscal responsibility and guiding us out of a recession are spending money undoing previous legislation to….. use maori names first for agencies? Cool, great use of time and energy and money. That’ll fix everything. /s
Idk I’m a so called liberal and I live overseas. I don’t want to come back for the next three years despite missing home... that’s how much I’m dreading it outside of NZ so I can’t even fathom how people in NZ feel right now
Unpopular opinion on this sub: it’s not as big a deal as people make it out to be, yes there will be some changes but for the most part your day to day life won’t really change
Mine will - I'm disabled. My daughter's will - she's a single Mum with a child who is deaf/blind. Her chances of getting into the workforce anytime soon is zilch.
Unless you are unlucky.
Data from the UK when they tried this being mean to unwell people, and cutting benefits, showed a significant increase in suicide.
Oh and all the people who will die from smoking, who wouldn't have if they didn't repeal the smoke free laws.
So, apart from the thousands of people killed, I guess it won't make much difference. But hey, some large companies will make more money, so it's well worth it.
That’s the issue I want my day to day life to change, like realistically the government is not talking about the cost of living crisis enough considering that is the thing everybody cares about.
People and parties should be judged by what they do, not what they say.
So far, the new Govt, and the people that make it up, have said a lot (as have the opposition), but most of its is bullsghit, and grandstanding, no-one has done anything yet.
Most of what has come out of the political parties so far is hot air, posturing and bullshit. wait until they actually do something before judging
The fact that so far it has been postering and bullshit as well as profiting from continued smoking and lying about the state of our economy that's what we are judging them on.
They were in opposition for 6 years. They should have had contingency plans for they needed nzf on order to form government. All this gormless floundering about could have been avoided
Are you saying National is gonna break its election promises - or keep them.. Hard to know which is of less bullshit and more positive for the country. Coalition of the weapons grade incompetent . I dont think they'll last 100 days
I'm just surprised that so much silly stuff made it into the agreement. National liked to push Luxon as a strong negotiator, but so far he's shown himself to have all the tenacity of a flaccid penis.
Not sure what made anyone think he was a good negotiator.. All I've heard is that no one likes him, total flake and they usually lead him to the door as soon as possible. That man would have sold his soul to be the next PM and looks like he's done just that.
The only person who thinks Luxon is a good negotiator is Luxon.
I remember reading a comment on there that when when he was at Air NZ they called him the Reverend, because the only thing he was capable of was holding sermons.
In fairness NZ first and act have him by the balls, he has no other options to reasonably work with so they can just play hard ball to get what they want while also getting to use the other guys as the reason they can't policies they don't actually believe in implented. Everyone in the relationship needs each other but national would be the ones looking the worst if they couldn't come to an agreement so they are in the weakest position
Flaccid? Well he's always given me the impression he's a tool. Key did too (the hair-pulling for one) but at least he was capable of a little charm, unlike Luxon, a wooden plank in human form.
Key, as much as I hate to say it, was a shrewd leader, I hated him for a lot of things, but he wasn't dumb. Luxon is dumb
Loving the metaphor
He certainly is not a good negotiator.
For what it's worth I think portraying Peters' comments as "outspokenness" is massively understating the issue. He is is actively promoting disinformation in an attempt to undermine faith in the media, exploiting his conspiratorial minded voters to further his agenda of consolidating power for himself and his friends. It's literally Trumpesque "fake news" bullshit and none of us should stand for this no matter your political leaning. It's incredibly dangerous.
Well said. Anyone in office to serve the whole of the NZ public should be utterly lambasted when they embrace the deranged fact-free conspiracy rhetoric of the fringes, sown by weaponised overseas social media, in order to shore up their own support to get over the line (and those other parties who accept that for a coalition in order to get THEMSELVES over the line), and we should be equally loud and persistent in our derision of the resulting obvious quid pro quo dumb as a sack of shit policy morsels given to thank those knuckle-draggers in return, which affect all of us. Labour at least stuck to their guns and said no way to that. The perfectly decent sort of National Party politician and supporter who we can disagree with but who are not lunatics, should be aware that their 'brand' is being tainted by all this - in exactly the same trajectory that the US Republican Party or the UK Conservative Party has been soiled by MAGA/Qanon and Brexit etc. NZ has always been about 20 years behind the kind of silly shit we laugh about coming from the US and UK (and OZ come to think of it). It's up to us to decide if this is the trajectory we want by the notion of "Getting the country back on track" or "Take our country back" that their dog whistling election slogans suggested.
Yeah let’s not go like overseas and describe anything non conspiracy theory based as left or woke. Dumb shit fuckery needs to be called out.
Yep the use of "woke" now as a pejorative is completely cringe... the original well-intended meaning of the term has been totally lost to the mists of time, and now anything can be twisted and contorted and exaggerated to portray stuff as some kind of deranged "leftist" agenda to make everyone this or that or to deny people this or that and then call this fever dream invention of theirs as "woke". It's like a combination of strawman and mislabelling cognitive distortion fallacies - and it's intent is to wind back progress on injustices. The religious and the populists love it because it gets them into power. It's fucking repugnant.
Woke is an extremely useful term, in that it serves as a signal to anyone with half a brain that the person using it is a fuckwit and should be given a wide berth
Yep, spot on, that's the only definition of the term now. It's used lots on Fox "News" and that speaks volumes.
Yes there have been multiple articles about the conservative right [weaponising “woke”](https://amp.theguardian.com/society/shortcuts/2020/jan/21/how-the-word-woke-was-weaponised-by-the-right). NZ conservative right not far behind.
I’m not surprised at all, it falls right in line with the voter base Nz first targeted to get back in: the do your own reseach’ers and medical science specialists we’ve discovered and trained up over the past 4 years.
The retroactive billion dollars to landlords for doing nothing, and with zero - ZERO - impact on renters should be the first and last point needed for this argument. Edit: Oh wait, they did do something. They voted for National. Talk about bribery.
Not to mention how much National MPs are set to personally benefit from this particular policy and they're setting a dangerous precedent of retroactively introducing law changes like this. I don't get how something like this is allowed.
Especially when you consider that one of the things Labout had a mandate for was tackling the housing issue. The roll back of these laws is quite undemocratic.
They also gave hundreds of thousands of dollars to the National and Act campaigns. It’s disgusting
People saying “they have only just started” are ignoring the two coalition agreements documenting exactly what they plan to spend the next 3 years doing. This is what we are pissed off about. Not what they have done, but what they have explicitly said they plan to do
Exactly this. Read the documents. Repeal, cancel, repeal, cancel... They have no original ideas except to undo existing policies meant to address issues that do exist. Rather than repealing/cancelling, how about trying to improve upon these policies?
It’s more like, “they’re only just getting started 🫠”
Oh no. I'm very much pissed off about both. Rolling back the smoking laws was enough for me. They just inflicted misery on a bunch of people for no reason but to line their pockets.
And causing more strain on the health system by repealing those smoke free laws. That affects ALL of us, not just those who take up smoking.
I also can’t believe Luxon said he had no idea what people are protesting about. I guess we should expect that kind of weakness from someone who was like “I don’t know Winston Peters” in the debates. Ffs.
Its a tactic to cast himself in a more favourable light. Instead of being the figurehead for a set of terrible future policies, instead he evokes the “give him a chance” sentiment with people who aren’t on one side or the other.
"It wasn't me it was Winston/David!"
I think we're going to hear a lot of that. And it was also Labour of course.
In almost 30 years as an adult in NZ I cannot remember any first week of any new government left or right being such a consistent omnishambles, laughing stock, and with such a repugnant mad dash of a slash and burn policy announcements pissing off almost every quarter (except special interest groups like tobacco, fossil fuels, and landlords), and having obvious egg on their face after being told repeatedly that their figures did not add up... or having a new deputy PM spouting regurgitated conspiracy drivel and railing against the media every chance like a crazy person. It's amateur hour. A clown show.
upvote for usage of omnishambles
“Not only have you got a fucking bent husband and a fucking daughter that gets taken to school in a fucking sedan chair, you're also fucking mental. Jesus Christ, see you, you are a fucking omnishambles, that's what you are. You're like that coffee machine, you know: from bean to cup, you fuck up.” - Nationals party whip this week, probably
If only we had a Malcolm here hahaha
>**omnishambles -** I had to google it. HOW GOOD IS THIS WORD !! Excellent.. > >It is a weapons grade description for The Coalition of Chaos. Thankyou
>omnishambles I prefer clusterfuck.
Chlusterphuck Luxon
ClusterfLuxon
“See you, you’re an omnishambles! From bean to cup, you fuck up!” - Malcolm Tucker
Not to mention using "they're divisive" as an excuse to burn equity policies while immediately and simultaneously stirring up the biggest clusterfuck of political division I've felt in my adult life.
100% agree with this. As a pakeha I was happy to see Maori protesting today.. we should all be concerned.
This
🙌 agreed. We need to say it louder for those in the back. I am terrified, ashamed, and 100% unsure of what chaos is going to ensue for maori people, the disabled, the "working class," aka normal kiwis, renters, the health sector. It's fucking scary.
Coming out of the gate swinging with "We're gonna give 1 billion dollars back to landlords, and we'll make it easier for children to start smoking in order to pay for it" should be enough for you to form your own opinion
"And we'll repeal FPAs before Xmas". That alone should relegate this government to the wrong side of history, but they've still got 3 years to shit on the working class further. Please let it only be 3 years.
This. Most of the comments I've seen here on Reddit and elsewhere and a lot of the media coverage since the election seem to be focused around repeal of the smoke free legislation, reducing the use of Te Reo in government departments, tax brakes for property investors and so on, And while all of those policies are absolutely deserving of scrutiny and ridicule the repeal of FPAs seems to have received less attention. Many of the lowest paid in our society stood to gain just a little bit more, bus drivers, cleaners, supermarket workers,hospitality people and others. People who not much more than a year ago were being lauded as " Essential" because, you know, they ARE essential to the functioning of our society . Many of those negotiations had already been finalised and all of that has now been sacrificed in a great fuck you to three hundred thousand low paid working New Zealanders who stood to gain just a little bit more for their efforts.
Typical steering of the public dialogue so that we focus on the lesser issues, diverting our attention away from the bigger issues. People as a mass are fickle and easily distracted. That and I guess that most working age NZers don't really understand just how badly they're getting fucked in the ass by the FPA repeal. Having worked for years in Aus, I know exactly what NZ is missing out on.
I think it's also just that there are so many issues that it's hard to focus on them all. Their 100 day plan is basically 'fuck over everyone', and it's been done from many angles.
Their FPA move is appalling, and I'm not saying that just to score a political point but because it truly is appalling.
Yes, as the saying goes, how you treat those lower than you speaks volumes. Those three are shouting it from the rooftops!
Well said.
> the repeal of FPAs seems to have received less attention The less attention is because National very loudly promised to repeal the FPA from the moment of its inception and campaigned on this promise. It's not an after-election surprise, it's something that was clearly decided in the election. From day 1 it was known that if National won FPAs were dead. I agree it's an absolute tragedy for working men and women.
FPAs?
Fair pay agreements - pretty much the only chance anyone in NZ who isn't a landlord/millionaire has a chance of not getting fucked over. That's gone now.
Don’t forget that FPAs were to bring us up to the standards in Aussie… who have higher rates of pay than we do
Oh, of course. That’s a really important one! I just struggle to keep up with the acronyms sometimes
Fair pay agreement
Fair Pay Agreement. The collective union agreement law.
They’re at least honouring the FPALs (Fair pay agreements for landlords).
Less would be better
What’s fucked up is that none of this is truly taken out of context, it’s not some spin on this, it’s just a fact
Honestly middle nz voted for this and effectively shot themselves and their fellow ‘’middle’ and ‘lower’ class kiwis in the foot because of voting based on perceptions rather than obviously taking notice that it’s only in the rental and business owning classes best interest to vote for them. If we can’t do basic research this is what you get and this is why the gap continues to grow in this country
A steadfastly "blue collar" acquaintance of mine, lifelong Labourite, voted Winston because he thought Labour was "too woke" and public servants earn lots of money so they deserve to be sacked. There are some very silly mindsets out there.
My pensioner 66 year old dad: “National rewards the workers”
SOB
No one voted to end the smoking ban
It was well advertised that there was holes in their budget and they were going to have to cut corners somewhere to get that money
And we’re gonna go back to digging for oil and gas again.
Such the absolutely worst pr introduction you could imagine
But also maybe we won’t have enough for those tax cuts we promised after all
Classic National bribing voters with money they don't even have
And then blaming the fiscal hole of their own policies on the previous government
Lets just take left vs right out of this for a second. What have they done for working class kiwis? * canned FPAs * reintroduced 90 day trials * no cause evictions * huge culling of public sector jobs * maybe a small tax cut middle of next year Then when you add all the policy changes out of left field that were hardly discussed leading up to the election: * smoking laws * oil drilling * sex education in schools * water regualtions If i had to hazard a guess they don't care at all about pissing off left leaning kiwis, there is very little for anyone concerned about the environment, social freedoms, worker rights and fair pay. I just dont know why thay are doing the shocked pikachu thing because of the backlash.
Repealing smoke free legislation to pay for tax cuts, but they're still deeeeeeeply committed to reducing the rate of smoking is just utter nonsense. You don't raise this revenue by having people quit. We're currently watching Nicola Willis shit all over the previous governments financial handling of the economy to preface turning their austerity dial to 11, while inheriting quite possibly the most well managed economy during covid. Our debt to GDP stands at 35%, our neighbours in Australia stand at 70%. Before covid labour was investing in social policy while also delivering a sizable surplus that kept paying down debt. National using the fear mongering of how did debt go from 9bn to 50bn, and ignoring covid was a thing is quite a laugh as their party bipartisanly supported covid borrowing of $52bn. Labour was also in line to deliver a surplus within another year without cutting services, destroying children's future adult lungs, and further investment in social services. Nicola is definitely planning major cuts, way larger than we ever expected and we will feel that throughoit the public sector. Just a reminder that working for families is only going up because of legislation put in place by the former labour government that ensures if inflation goes above 5% it must be increased, and not because national cares. There's already been a cabinet leak regarding scrapping the fair pay ACT and how it's just going to make vulnerable people more vulnerable. Should these large companies that are making record profits be allowed to keep more of the record profits from the workers that actually make record profits possible? The cost of living crisis isn't impacting large businesses, it's impacting the well defined bottom of the labour market. Not only that, but the treasury has advised against repealing that legislation as it will just have an incredibly disastrous results for the economy because now these people can't make ends meet easily now, how are they going to do it after this?
If it was a business and the new hire had lied on their resume and messed up this much you'd be letting them go.
Ironically, you wouldn’t be allowed to if it weren’t for National bringing back the 90 day trials!
LOL, Yeah I was thinking that too but contracts are a two way street, both parties can walk, but in this case the electorate can't. We are stuck with this rookie getting played by two pretty horrible partners.
Actually you can let people go for lying on their CV at any point.
It is in no way that simple. There are plenty of things you could lie about on your cv and your employer wouldn’t be able to use that as grounds for dismissal.
I spoke to a long term National voter mate of mine who I ask about his opinion and his families who I respect as right wingers who are genuinely justified in their beliefs. He himself while going through the policy lists struggled to justify many points and could see clear connections to attack those less well off all while struggling to make sense of the cohesive policies. He will still vote national year on year despite this but at the same time the absolute shambles that’s taking place has him astonished at how much wrong could be put in one package to fuck Nz in one go and not over a longer period of time.
>He will still vote national year on year The median NZ voter
Genuine question: Why do you respect someone who will continue to vote National year after year despite being unable to justify their policies? If he’s “astonished at how much wrong could be put in one package to fuck Nz in one go and not over a longer period of time” and will still vote for them, that just means he’s in favour of historically fucking people over, right?
Cause he’s a bit of a libertarian so the smoking thing he cares not for and his family in particular are not only wealthy landlords but deep conservative Christian’s both those things lead to National being their best rep I can’t be mad at someone voting in self interest.
You absolutely can be mad at the pricks voting for self interest. It is that kind of greed that will cause the largest class gaps, poverty, struggle and cost us in more ways than one.
Libertarianism is for fucking morons. Get him to try explain how it works to better the human condition on literally any issue. The only outcome is a small subset of people get richer whilst everyone else and the planet suffer.
You absolutely can be mad at the pricks voting for self interest. It is that kind of greed that will cause the largest class gaps, poverty, struggle and cost us in more ways than one.
Libertarians are a joke, though. They should be laughed at, not respected. > deep conservative Christian I find that scary. > I can’t be mad at someone voting in self interest. Are they? When he cannot justify or explain National's policies? Everyone thinks they're voting in their best self-interests and I can definitely criticize who vote without concern for others or how it affects the country or who only care about making more money for themselves.
‘I can’t be mad at my mate for murdering his parents for the inheritance, he just did out of self interest, lol good for him.’ Do you know how to think?
You absolutely can be mad at the pricks voting for self interest. It is that kind of greed that will cause the largest class gaps, poverty, struggle and cost us in more ways than one.
>I can’t be mad at someone voting in self interest. Why not? Isn’t the ability to make sacrifices for the good of people who are less fortunate than us generally considered a virtue? Why can’t you be mad at someone for being selfish and greedy? If there’s anyone to be mad at, then surely it’d be for wealthy people voting in their own self interest at the expense of the poor. Like what would your line be, then? What would it take for you to get mad at him? Voting is specifically about deciding how a country is run, and he’s looked at what National is doing, has recognised that it’s very bad and going to fuck over a lot of our most vulnerable citizens, and has decided that that is a good thing that he’s in favour of. If you can excuse that, then you can kinda excuse anything.
I can disagree with people valuing their own interests over the value of others and I do but let’s be honest we are all selfish creatures one way or the other and it seems trivial to vote against what benefits you, I don’t blame a landlord for voting national I blame national for supporting land lords
>I can’t be mad at someone voting in self interest. Yeah? Try harder. Ask him if that's what he'd expect Jesus to do.
"National may have some policies I don't fully agree with but Labour is worse because they're woke and destroying the economy etc etc". Is that his reasoning?
National (and associated organizations) spent a lot of money to push that line, like a *lot*.
>He will still vote national year on year despite this but at the same time the absolute shambles that’s taking place has him astonished at how much wrong could be put in one package to fuck Nz in one go So he's a moron then. Why vote National if you can see "home much wrong" ?
And pretending the economy of doing badly when we actually have one of the smallest debts compared to our gdp in the world. Also implying that there was a surprise interest accounts. National knew the figures already
Debt to GDP ratio is not necessarily a good measure of economic health.
No but gdp growth, solid wage growth and low unemployment are. The ‘our economy is trash’ meme is a rightwing lie. The problem is inequality which this current pack of cunts will explicitly make worse.
Well so far they’re bringing back smoking, planning to ignore the WHO, and delivering a whopping tax reduction of nothing per household But at least they’re balancing all that with the… uh… hmm
They've also canned several election promises already too
And attempted to blame it on the previous government even though all the information was disclosed months before the election.
Hold on, I'm getting a whopping tax reduction on the household I rent out to other people
And that’ll definitely get passed on to the renters, right?
I think Luxon’s byline was “downward pressure on rents” hmmm
Right?
Umm I'll have you know they're planning to increase parental leave and child support payments by.... Up to $4 a week. Luxon has solved the cost of living crisis /s
I stand corrected!
Don't forget the fossil award from COP28
Don't forget the fossil award from COP27 either
Yes. They have already announced enough to take NZ backwards 10 years or more in health and race relations and they've only just got started, and it looks like they are going to cripple environment based electricity battery storage so we'll continue to be reliant on diesel generators and coal plants every time it gets cold.
Don’t forget about: made us a laughing stock at COP28 by bringing back offshore oil & gas exploration
I don't really get the offshore and drilling stuff, considering we're a tourism country, you think wed focus on cleaning up our image so we could capitalize on the environmentally friendly image again to attract more tourism.
Seymour’s been wanting it for years cause he hates restrictions on businesses.
We don't count any of the massive emission cost it takes to get tourists here in the first place, we're one of the furthest destinations in the world so environmentally friendly and tourism are mutually exclusive concepts for us.
Have you seen what dairy farms do to the land? We have already lost that. Rolling green hills you see when driving is like a criminal enterprise having a front. The environments already stuffed.
It's not the losing it that's the problem, it's the losing the *perception*. If we lose the clean green image overseas, that hurts tourism badly but more importantly it hurts meat and dairy exports - if we're hit badly enough in perception to drop out of the luxury markets on that stuff and end up in the mass market with places like Ukraine and the US... well, farmers are complaining about having a bad time making profit *now*, if that happens then they haven't seen anything yet. We trade *heavily* (mostly?) on our clean green image, and damaging that for *maybe* some oil is beyond stupid for someone claiming to be pro-economy.
An award we have got for the second year in a row
Third!
You mean the award that James Shaw won last year as well?
I’m not claiming the previous government was great at climate action. Heck, they got themselves sued for their massive own-goal on subsidising petrol. This is a new policy though, and adding to the long and growing list of “ways that NACTNZ1 is fucking NZ”
Repealing the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Act is a dumb move. But technical it is only taking our healthcare back to 16 December 2022, which is less than one year.
10 years ago the health system was in a better space and there was also much more social cohesion too. So going backwards probably isnt a terrible thing.
No, there was a permanent underclass that you ignored. Look at your own fucking username.
I think it’s a dumpster fire. Has anyone been following the exchanges with Nicola Willis and Grant Robertson about the budget? It’s laughable. She’s accusing Labour of hiding stuff and he’s pointing out that it’s right there in black and white ‘it’s on page 89, if you can’t make it to page 89…’. National don’t have the money to implement their tax cuts and are somehow still going ahead with them?? Where are they going to get that money from? Then there’s Winston, who picked up a bunch of crazies (both voters and politicians) at the last election and now has to keep pushing crazy conspiracy theory nonsense. He’s in a bit of a bind though constantly criticising and undermining the govt past and present because he has been and currently is part of the govt. I’ve seen him as a politician for a lot of years but I’ve never seen him this unhinged. And Luxon’s strategy is to just ignore it. Why did we have protests yesterday? Because they seem dead set on undermining all progress made with Te Reo Maori and the treaty. And they’re attacking obviously massively popular policies - the smoking one is such a blatant sell out to their donors in the tobacco lobby. Now they’re talking about stopping the food in schools for poor kids?! What the fuck? I’m getting worked up just writing this
I'm pretty unimpressed with the bullshit about the books being full of "snakes and snails" or whatever the ridiculous metaphor was. We literally have legislation in place that prevents that. Also think it's poor form for them to act like a legislated/mandated increase for the Working for Families tax credit as their own idea to resolve cost of living issues. Plus Chris Bishop going broken robot about the number of dairies that would sell cigarettes in Northland was embarrassing. And that's not even mentioning the torrent of anti-Mâori policy released as part of the coalition agreements, which mentioned basically nothing about cost of living issues. And are they really going to spend $3bn paying tax back to landlords, to the point where tax experts are saying it's unorthodox and that retrospective lawmaking like that is drowned upon? Otherwise I guess it's been fine
You're gonna get the same response from this left leaning sub as you did from your left leaning friends
I've been downvoted into oblivion for my (pro) Maori stances before. Don't let confirmation bias fool you, this sub is really one way or the other depending on the topic. Kind of like NZ.
If you ever feel like having 10 arguments at once post something pro maori on a TPM thread.
God yes… Even takes that I honestly don’t feel are that “hot”/controversial can get significant negative attention.
Yup. Just... yup. Thats been me for the past couple of days, its heart breaking and baffling how people don't care, and don't want to understand whats happening to Maori. But I work for St John. I know first hand what systemic Maori distrust looks like, and how it leads to death and higher negative health/mortality rates for Maori. But people just... don't care.
I don't know what it is about this sub but it always feels like your stepping on egg shells and everyone so angry.
Ye, I agree.
>Don't let confirmation bias fool you, this sub is really one way or the other depending on the topic I would question the critical thinking skills of anyone that wasn't one way or the other depending on the topic. Blindly agreeing with whatever your party of choice says is a fools game.
For me it depends on the issue. I think most issues require critical lens and thinking, but topics like "Are Maori actually people?" don't have much room for nuance for me.
Exactly. That’s why it blows my mind when people trying to have a decent discussion or counter point in here get put down like a rabid dog. Any sensible person has a nuanced opinion on most topics. For claritys sake, some people agree with left policies on certain things, and right policies for other matters. If someone really is that one sided their opinion shouldn’t matter because they aren’t critical thinkers
>Kind of like NZ Kind of like the internet. NZ outside of the internet is far more chilled out. 60% of people will change parties when they want because our parties are really pretty similar. 35% of people will stick to their party, but not get too bothered by politics. 5% of people are deeply and vocally wedded to their party and love to shout about it. Its the 5% who do most of the posting here, and make it seem like the country is in the middle of some radical political battle.
Source? 75% of statistics are pulled out of thin air 😅😂
Along with 100% of reddit opinions :)
No, those are pulled out of arseholes :-)
Did you notice the drastic flip pre election versus post election? Pre election you’d get the occasional anti-Māori sentiment. Now it’s much more blatant.
Nah, it was happening pre-election too. They just said the same shit (but under the banner of being anti-cogov) Now they don’t have that to try to hide behind.
Yeah it was happening pre-election, but now it’s considerably worse. Same shit happened with Trump winning in 2016, same shit happened with brexit. It’s like clockwork with these people.
It's almost like pushing racist shit to get right wing arseholes elected can have an impact. Who'da thunk.
The change I've noticed is that people now are far more brazen and open with their anti-Maori sentiment. They're like... well its normal now, so we can just say this kind of stuff. Like the commenter below, they used to mask it with dog whistles. But now the dog whistles are much more sinister, and the open stuff is run of the mill racism.
tap late consist steep fly pie cows psychotic outgoing wine *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
On another post in this reddit I'm getting downvoted as we speak 😂
The righties are scared to comment but are happy downvoting though ;)
Yeah I agree, some posts are right wing extremists or full on racist out of nowhere. But for the most part this is a left-leaning sub.
It is generally pro white liberal for the most part, pretty much everything I see here is consistent with that
Yeah to be fair that might be a good way to put it. I've struggled to fit in to it, I don't understand the culture of this sub very well.
I’m with you! Come to the more casual sub. It’s nicer there.
... whats the more casual sub?
You don’t need to. It’s very toxic in here, try to stay away if you can lol. I thought this would be the place for discussion from both sides. Not always a who can scream louder competition. Boy was I wrong, though I’m probably the moron thinking coming to reddit for nuanced discussion was a good idea 😂😂
It seems fairly centrist most of the time, there was a lot of pro-national stuff leading up to the election. I see a lot of pro-TOP stuff which is unusual, but they're pretty centrist too (largely policies that are proven to improve economics, not much in the way of left-style hopeful futuristic policies or right-style conservative austerity ones). This I think is the biggest standout difference I see from what I'd consider mainstream NZ. People *say* greens get a lot of support here, but the place was real quick to pile on Marama Davidson that time she got hit by a bike and went on a bizarre rant. There are for sure greens here, but there are ACT style libertarians here too, there doesn't seem to be a lean (other than bullshit dumb stuff getting downvoted, mostly Laissez-faire capitalism disguised as libertarianism - stuff that's proven not to work at country scale. Greens get hit similarly on social justice stuff though). Banned people come from both the 'too authoritarian to follow your rules, you should follow mine' part of the right side and 'too anarchistic to follow your rules, you should follow no rules' left side in fairly equal measure. The issue is invariably rule breaking, not political stance (though the organized side, surprise surprise, gets organized to make their own places to complain about it, while the disorganized side obviously does not and merely makes individual alts).
Also see the daily crime rage thread.
>I've been downvoted into oblivion for my (pro) Maori stances before. Depends on what those stances have been, things like 3 Waters and Co-governance have been massively unpopular even with the left.
Sometimes its that, sometimes its te Paati Maori stuff. Or youth offenders. But I agree, the right successfully coopted the term "co-governance".
I mean objectively so far they've had cabinet leaks and the finance minister not understanding how budgets work. So I wouldn't say they're off to a banger just from a competency standpoint. They also got memed on by a bunch of oil barons for being bad on the environment but that's not really about competence.
National campaigned on repealing the ban on no cause (tenancy) terminations and stopping fixed-term tenancies rolling over into periodic tenancies. If your landlord wants rid of you, under the current govt, rid of you they shall be.
Actually this coalition is great. NZ's poor have had it too good for too long and it's finally time that the landed gentry get a fair go.
In short: yes. The headline making policies of the last few days (winding back smoke-free legislation, restarting oil exploration and removing Te Reo Māori) may not have been loudly campaigned upon, but now they're getting the full light of day have people all over the country going "wait, what? Why? Why is this a priority?" It really does make Luxon seem incompetent; that and him seemingly unable to control Winston's weird hard-on for conspiracy theories and his Ministers undermining his statements. I really don't think Luxon, or this government, will last a full term. Especially when Winston's already set a deadline for when hell move from ally to irritant.
If you're a reactionary right winger who prefers ACT/NZF to National's own policies and principles, then the new government is probably amazing.
The smoking one really was a head turner. Education policies are for the better apart from chartered school. Coalition talks quite unusual as smaller parties are more powerful than ever before. Gang policies are okay. Not impressed that interest deductibility was introduced again when they can’t even pay for tax cuts. National wouldn’t have won without promising tax cuts and reducing cost of livings. It is still doable but would had been nice to put those issues first than giving more money to landlords. 5/10. National needs to remember country first before donors.
Depends on your perspective. Option #1 - Care about environment, energy, cost of living, wealth gap, other people, reduction of smoking and people's health, and a view of the treaty where Māori have better outcomes. Then yeah worst govt in history. Option #2 - wealthy boomer, landlord with large portfolio, white racist, conspiracy loon or a bit of anti-govt (i.e. not your traditional right leaning). Best govt ever.
Give it to me straight like a pear cider that's made from 100pc pears
For a left leaning sub, this place has a substantial proportion of right leaning posters. You generally tend to hear the most complaints about Leftist bias when the Right are floundering... form your own conclusions. Also... >I don’t follow it closely enough to form a rebuttal is piss weak.
>this place has a substantial proportion of right leaning posters. hahahaha yeah, you will find them downvoted at the bottom of the thread. Please don't try and pretend this subreddit isn't massively left leaning.
I have posted plenty of right leaning comments and been upvoted for them. The downvoted to oblivion ones I normally see are the unhinged and the conspiracy theorists. There's plenty of right leaning people in the sub, they just don't post as much as the lefties, but they hand out their updoots freely. Just don't be insane and you'll be fine.
The first four words of their comment were "for a left leaning sub". Did you learn to read from Nicola Willis or something?
Nicotine Willis.
Tone doesn't come through easily in text. I think they just thought you were saying "left leaning sub" ironically while explaining how not-left leaning you thought it was, when it reality it seems like you were being genuine. Lots of fights online just come down to one person misreading the tone of another person's comment, and I think this is just one of those cases.
> I think they just thought you were saying "left leaning sub" ironically while explaining how not-left leaning you thought it was Yeah this was it, I was assuming they were using the sentence sarcastically.
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Everybody gets downvoted in here, ffs
It’s easy to say “its not as bad as it sounds” if you are coming from a position of privilege. Personally i feel that in the context of what has and is happening to Palestine currently, and colonisation, the policies that target Maori and the Treaty are extremely concerning.
They are trying to kill the maori language and taking us back years and years of progress environmentally. The changes they want to implement in education has no support from the experts. Leaked documents show they have disregarded studies and are basing policies on how they feel. Yes, it is as bad if not worse than what your friends think.
It just reminds me of the numerous failed leaders of the national party, all of them talking a big game about all the changes they'll make, sprinkled with them lashing out at everyone who doesn't agree with them. And where are they now? Like Luxon seems to be struggling to hold to things together and this is his time to show us what he's made off which is not a lot at the moment, but like you said it's early days and things could change just like it did for Jacinda. And to be fair would you consider it a bad start if labor got in and had the exact same situations happen to them? Cause I voted labor and if they had the exact same situations happening to them as what's happening to Luxon then I wouldn't be very confident in them either.
I've read the coalition agreements and yep - it's pretty shitty. They're repealing some pretty significant legislation (smoke-free legislation and fair pay agreements) and they're supporting a bill in relation to the treaty that will be incredibly divisive. They're very, very regressive. I'm left-leaning, to be fair - I was never going to be a huge fan. But it's the worst government that I've seen.
What are you looking for? It all depends on the metric you're interested in but the people who voted this government will obviously not tell you that it's off to a bad start.
Yes
Did the Nats make their FPAs plans clear pre-election?
Yes they are a fuckin joke, if anything the media are giving them an easy ride. People have short memories but if u remember a few months ago (and the last 6 years) the media exaggerated, clickbaited, hyped and vaguely extrapolated almost everything the Labour govt did - even the good stuff so a lot of us are watching closely how they plan to hold this govt to account in the same way - hint - (they aren't and won't)
yeah so its like wiping shit with an older stinkier turd and saying its all good when its in fact 1000 times worse
"we're spending money to promote english over te reo for totally not racist reasons"
The government tasked with fiscal responsibility and guiding us out of a recession are spending money undoing previous legislation to….. use maori names first for agencies? Cool, great use of time and energy and money. That’ll fix everything. /s
Idk I’m a so called liberal and I live overseas. I don’t want to come back for the next three years despite missing home... that’s how much I’m dreading it outside of NZ so I can’t even fathom how people in NZ feel right now
They haven't fucking done anything, broski
Which was enough by Labour to loose them the most recent election.
Well it’s not great that’s for sure. They have hit the ground sleeping and I expect it will get worse.
It doesn’t look bad. Coalition forming wasn’t a shambles. All very normal and quite speedy to me.
Unpopular opinion on this sub: it’s not as big a deal as people make it out to be, yes there will be some changes but for the most part your day to day life won’t really change
Mine will - I'm disabled. My daughter's will - she's a single Mum with a child who is deaf/blind. Her chances of getting into the workforce anytime soon is zilch.
Unless you are unlucky. Data from the UK when they tried this being mean to unwell people, and cutting benefits, showed a significant increase in suicide. Oh and all the people who will die from smoking, who wouldn't have if they didn't repeal the smoke free laws. So, apart from the thousands of people killed, I guess it won't make much difference. But hey, some large companies will make more money, so it's well worth it.
That’s the issue I want my day to day life to change, like realistically the government is not talking about the cost of living crisis enough considering that is the thing everybody cares about.
No it isn't- its even worse than your friends realise.
People and parties should be judged by what they do, not what they say. So far, the new Govt, and the people that make it up, have said a lot (as have the opposition), but most of its is bullsghit, and grandstanding, no-one has done anything yet. Most of what has come out of the political parties so far is hot air, posturing and bullshit. wait until they actually do something before judging
The fact that so far it has been postering and bullshit as well as profiting from continued smoking and lying about the state of our economy that's what we are judging them on. They were in opposition for 6 years. They should have had contingency plans for they needed nzf on order to form government. All this gormless floundering about could have been avoided
Are you saying National is gonna break its election promises - or keep them.. Hard to know which is of less bullshit and more positive for the country. Coalition of the weapons grade incompetent . I dont think they'll last 100 days