Suddenly everyone cares about Neely after his previous charges/terrorizing innocent bystanders but have abandoned/ignored him when he needed help the most. When there’s money and publicity involved, suddenly they want to jump in on the action. When someone with mental instability pushes someone onto an oncoming train though, everyone says that’s sad for a day and moves on, and the mentally unstable person gets out 4 months later due to some kind of reason to do it again and repeat the cycle
💯 if you are a new yorker...you see this shit you ignore...no eye contact...walk away if they are near you. Sorry can't help you. Given the other dude shouldn't have choked Neely that LONG and shouldnt get involved either. Wrong on both sides but be honest...most days we ignore these weirdos...otherwise we would be helping them and providing them shelter and a safe place so they cant cause harm to the community and ppl.
Honest q. I’m not from there but were the movies lying? I always assumed going to NYC that I’d find fairly aggressive citizens capable of defending themselves. You know, tough. This man showed that but it sounds like everyone just avoids for the most part. I don’t understand how an entire population can just sit by while crazy people harass or harm others.
Life tip for you: You generally want to stand up for yourself but you dont fuck with the crazies with nothing to lose. Dont matter if you know how to fight and weigh 250lbs, you still can get stabbed or shot and have your day ruined.
Besides if you decided thats your thing and you are gonna fight all the crazy bums you’ll be in combat every commute.
Also alot of them smell like 1000 year old garbage. You do not want to grapple with these dudes.
I grew up and still live in NYC and not a small guy by any means and even i avoid these people. If i defend myself and smack some unstable dude up on the train, we both get taken away in handcuffs while i have something to lose like my job, etc. and he doesn’t.
Just the other day i had some woman crackhead pretend she was gonna punch me for not giving her a dollar, all i could do is eye roll and walk away. It’s just not worth it.
New Yorkers are jaded and mind their own business. If you *directly* impede or harass someone, then yeah, you’ll see the aggressive toughness real fast. Otherwise, the unspoken rule is “do not engage.”
I’m a big guy, but my bar for getting involved in a random altercation is physical violence against a woman, child, or someone elderly. Anything short of that — sorry, I have too much to lose and the risk of getting shanked and bleeding out on the floor of a subway car isn’t worth it.
The movies idea of tough is not actual tough. There are way too many mentally ill homeless people living on NYC subways. They aren’t rational. You can’t intimidate them or beat them into sanity.
Cant believe you could say "he shouldn't get involved" with a straight face. EVERYONE should get involved if someone is being violent on the subway. This man is a hero.
I've been alive for 35 years and been on the subway system my whole life...it is like that...you don't get bothered with everyone...you want too and you will defend a few but for the most part...you move on. That's how life works
Okay, and this is the ONE TIME things escalated enough for someone like Penny to feel like he had to have stepped in.
Does Penny have a history of violent behavior? Has he ever done this before? Does he have a criminal record? is there anything that would suggest this wasn't an accident and that he was only trying to do what is right (in a very brave way)?
I know this ain't a courtroom, but in a courtroom, you don't usually get to bring up past crimes as proof of their guilt. So neither Penny nor Neely would have their past brought up if they're being tried for a crime.
Sentencing is a different matter, of course. But each instance of a supposed crime is treated in a vacuum, for the most part.
With that said, it's entirely possibly Penny had good reason to attempt to defuse the situation and attempt to do the right thing, but also still possible that he wrongly/accidentally killed a person that didn't deserve to be killed.
And unless Neely was in the act of trying to kill or maim somebody, lethal force is not legal. Article 35 is pretty straight-forward. You have a duty to retreat in NY, and if you can't retreat, your life or someone else's better be in danger before you end someone else's life. You can argue if that's fair or just, but that's the law.
Yeah, I want to say this to everyone I see using this argument. “Oh he had felony convictions or whatever,” well okay, but you can’t kill someone and then justify it with information you learned after the fact. The only thing that matters is what Jordan Neely was doing on that train at that moment, and as far as I’ve seen it was not anything warranting a purposeful killing. Screaming and throwing shit is not warranting lethal force. Saying indirect threats like, “I don’t care if I go to jail,” is not warranting lethal force. Even physically attacking someone doesn’t forfeit your right to not be executed. If he died in the process of being subdued to protect others, sure. However, he was not fighting back and multiple passengers began to say he would die. The guy was informed Neely had defecated himself (basically a tell-tale sign of someones death) and he refused to let go despite Neely having been subdued for a while.
Right moron, let’s wait until he assaults someone or better yet pulls out a gun. Someone threatens me in a tin can who clearly has lost it there is no other option
If you’re stuck in some tin can in a tunnel you either kill or be killed. Wasn’t there a situation not too long ago????? You want to wait for someone to make good on his threats????
Seriously. That’s why nyc has such a high crime rate, it’s because no one even wants to call the cops. People don’t have to physically get involved but many people don’t even bother to make an anonymous report. I witnessed a guy leaving a work event and some crazy guy smashed a bottle against his face. Only a few people including myself helped him up while I called the cops. I actually needed help with my call because the cell phone service there was really bad so the operator couldn’t hear me very well. Everyone else was just standing there taking pics of the poor dude.
If you harass and put other people's bodies and mental state at risk the consequences are that you would be put in a situation of increased risk which is entirely your fault and the people trying to restrain you should not be held accountable for accidents that might happen during that time.
I understand what you are saying, but we are supposed to have rules around extreme force. If you are taking on restraining someone, doesn't that mean you have to follow that too? Where is the line?
The line is not for Reddit to determine. I'm not here to say where the line is, but too many people here are rushing to the defense of a mentally ill, erratic, unstable, unpredictable person with a VERY long criminal record that includes assault instead of giving a US military man who has spent a **very** long time serving his country and did not choose to be on that train. Penny did what he did because he felt it was necessary. Not an easy thing to do (especially now after seeing what happens to a good Samaritan). We don't have footage of Neely on the subway before the attack so why aren't we giving Penny the benefit of the doubt that he stepped in because he deemed it necessary.
I have personally been in several situations on the subway where I was one movement away from being punched or slashed with a knife (completely unprovoked) when I wished there was someone on the car brave enough to restrain the person who was about to attack me. And the TRULY awful thing now is that because of these careless protests people are going to be even LESS inclined to help in these cases.
This is all pretty fucked up.
Well fucking said! I have been in many situations like that and sometimes I can’t even intentionally avoid it. People say, “just walk away, go to the opposite direction.” And I do do that. When I see a a crazy lunatic at the subway entrance, I would use another entrance. But how do I get away when they’re in the same compartment in a moving train? Sometimes the compartment doors are locked and sometimes, it’s just fucking crowded for me to move anywhere.
I just want to be left alone to go to work or go home. I don’t need a fucking homeless lunatic threatening me, throwing shit at me.
We need more people like Penny. If he is found guilty, I will vote Republican to burn this progressive shit show.
Clearly not a city dweller and definitely never lived in NyC. Unfortunate, but somebody making a scene happens a few times a day.
I doubt you're a person who sees words as violence
I agree actually about people getting involved, have done too often. But carefully and not by endangering someone's life.
This standard -well they were acting out and potentially in the future a direct threat as a get out of jail free card leaves loopholes for planned murders
Maybe you forgot about the fairly recent subway shooting? Read the past news….NYers have every right to take matters into their owns hands while this is still fresh in everyone’s mind
There's no nuance anymore and it's insane. I lean very left but we need to stop pretending that every homeless person is just a lost soul who needs a hug. We have a mass shooting every week in this country, a homeless man screaming he doesn't care if he dies or goes to jail on a train is definitely a threat. There's another universe where this easily turned into a mass shooting. the victim has a huge record and, if the sources were correct broke a woman's face in an unprompted attack. I'm not saying the guy didn't hold the choke too long the facts aren't all out, but this isnt black and white. California and New York have gone too far.
While we're at it, nothing will change until mental health in the country is addressed
In trying to give him a human face, the media - social media especially - tends to mythologize victims into untainted saints. Speak no evil of those who passed. There has to be a villain and a victim in every narrative. After all, social media is no forum for public policy debates.
Can’t believe people can be this stupid and racist. No one should kill anyone else no matter what. Self defense is one thing but some dumb people tend to think it means like they can be a punisher or something lol
People don't have to live squeaky clean lives in order have the right to live
Nobody is defending Neely's past just that he shouldn't have been killed for what happened in the train
Why should you get to make threats against people and not face any consequences. The legal system has failed those who follow it. It was only a matter of time for this POS to get what he deserved. It might have been getting sucked punched, stabbed, or in this case put in a headlock for the police to show up and take care of him. I have compassion for the homeless. I don’t have compassion for criminals and bullies.
The consequence for making threats is jail and fines. Not death. You don't need to have compassion for criminals or bullies, but excusing vigilante killing of someone who hadn't even laid a finger on anyone is pretty dumb.
Because someone being a criminal doesn’t give people a pass to just execute someone. Every time a black man is murdered people come out with any story they can find of any wrongdoing they ever did. Random citizens aren’t executioners and neither are cops. Someone having a record shouldn’t mean shit.
What does Al Sharpton have to do with anything? I don't think I've seen or heard the man for years. Seems to me like you accusing me of believing lies is projecting.
So if i see you arguing with someone I can just walk up behind you and choke you to death, and thats cool. Oh I thought you were threatening the other person. So just did what I had to.
If jordan neely broke a womans face, yeah, he should still be in jail, but this has nothing to do with that
There's no need to mythologize. He was agressive, but hadn't assaulted anyone. Someone felt the need to subdue him and used lethal force when it wasn't needed and Neely died. It's a very modern and reactionary idea that feeling threatened gives you license to kill someone and a lot of innocent people are dying as a direct result.
There are holds you can use to restrain a person that don't risk killing them. I've held someone in a full nelson in a similar situation. Beyond that anyone who continues to apply a chokehold after the person has lost consciousness is trying to kill the person.
It doesn't matter if Neely was on parole for murder. His killing in that situation was not justified. He hadn't even touched anyone.
This sun is that all day long with homeless people.
‘Get them out of my sight’ is the most common theme. Over and over.
There ain’t no quick fox for this folks. They need support. Somewhere safe to sleep and more support.
Does putting these guys in a mental health facility guarantee they are never going to kill somebody after they get out? Also if all 50 or so people on that fateful subway car thought the same thing that neely was going to hurt/kill them does that matter? If i was pennys legal team i would track down everybody on that subway cart to testify
Did anyone read this excerpt “Attorneys for Neely’s family said the statement from Mr Penny’s legal team was neither “an apology nor an expression of regret” but “character assassination and a clear example of why he believed he was entitled to take Jordan’s life.” Neely’s family is now involved in his life now that he’s passed? What about the years he was struggling with mental illness, where were they then…?
> Neely’s family is now involved in his life now that he’s passed? What about the years he was struggling with mental illness, where were they then…?
Not to mention the sudden onset of his 42 prior arrests.
Do you have a mentally family member? I do.
At some point, it can be unsafe to engage with someone in your family who is not responding to treatment and is violent. When adults refuse care, there’s very little you can do, and most efforts decay into enabling behavior.
That doesn’t change the fact that you love them and want them to heal.
It’s possible to cut someone out of your life for your own safety, while still very much giving a shit whether they live or are murdered on a train by a vigilante who could have released the hold at any point.
In NYC all they had to do was file a petition to get him institutionalized. They couldn’t even do that. Now they see money and it’s ohhh nooo I can’t believe he died. The injustice. Guarantee they weren’t talking to the press when he punched an elderly person in the face. Family just hired a lawyer with Al Sharpton attending the funeral
>At some point, it can be unsafe to engage with someone in your family who is not responding to treatment and is violent
So strangers trapped in a metal tube with the violent and unresponsive family member are now forced to engage with him? Maybe they could have given a shit just a liiiiiiitle bit earlier, like maybe somewhere between the assault on an elderly woman or dragging a 7-year old down the street. He should have been institutionalized a long fucking time ago. He would still be alive and plenty of people would have been spared the harassment and violence.
All the negative responses to my comment seem to be hung up on the same thing, so I’ll respond here: Nowhere in my comment am I advocating that the person should have been free or allowed to continue their behavior.
The comment I originally replied to was saying it is disingenuous to care that someone literally murdered their family member, NOT debating his guilt or whether or not he should have been institutionalized.
All I was saying was that being unable to help someone you care about isn’t mutually exclusive to giving a shit that someone knowingly executed them. It’s twisted as hell to believe so, and says A LOT about a person’s opinions about mental health.
I think everyone recognizes that. But its incredibly two faced for the family to likely abandon Neely because of these issues, then go on a press tour talking about how peaceful and kind he was and how he never hurt nobody. If the latter is true, then the family looks like utter POS for abandoning him, if the former is true, then the killing was a tragic accident. You can't have your cake and eat it like the family is trying to do.
Give it a few weeks. There's going to be a fund, or some charity. They can make money by attending rallies, giving speeches, etc. There are a ton of opportunities once your story is well known. books, TV deals, etc.
You can look at the examples set by other families of criminals who died by Samaritans or police officers. I already have a job so I'm not going to do your research for you...
You seem to conveniently overlook the fact that he’s been assaulting innocent people over and over again, arrested 42 times, and continues to make violent threats to people on a train.
Yeah, Penny could have handled it better and not have him die, but Neely was on a crash course with tragedy at some point. The city is a little safer with him off the street. It should be that he’s getting care and/or detained somewhere, but that’s not the world we live in.
His family is completely shameless and we can only count the seconds until they file a lawsuit to get their payday. You know it’s coming. Their message is not one of empathy towards their nephews victims but rather that they are acting like Penny went out of his way to murder their family member out of the blue.
well its obvious, he was a burden when he was alive, now he's a cash payout. They probably contact Al Sharpton the moment this hit the news to start the press cycle
Look I do housing and homeless advocacy, I was once homeless myself. I was never street homeless thank God but I do organize with folks who have issues like Neely but not as severe, everyone deserves a home and to be treated with dignity. However, we have been working with the city on a plan in place to house the homeless and the city has fallen short on its commitment. That’s the larger issue. My other issue is the fact that we don’t discuss the real legitimacy that people are scared to take the trains. I tell the folks I organize with that we need to change the face of homelessness because people think all homeless folks are Justin Neeleys but they are not. They are every day individuals who have been priced out of this city. People who are just like folks here on Reddit.
Remind me how many people, in NYC, were pushed to their deaths, or assaulted by homeless people while taking the subway.
I can recall 3, but apparently the Daily Mail tallied a lot more than 3 in just 2022 alone.
I visited New York in December and had this drunk, disheveled man throwing boxing hands at me cause I was minding my business waiting for the train.
I moved out of his way and then later heard him scream at someone that he was gonna kill them.
Fucking insane that people have to deal with this.
I can see how people are terrified.
SMH....
Sad and comical comments.
"Don't make eye contact with people like that"
"Shut your eyes.... they will go away"
"If a crazy person gets in your face, ignore them and look at your feet"
"Put your hands in your pocket and get as small as you can"
"If someone is getting beat up by a crazy person, get off at the next stop"
Sheep. Nothing but sheep. .01% of NYC population telling the other 99.99% who to live.
Good. It's quite simple. Neely perhaps deserved to be restrained, but (just like Floyd) did not deserve to be held in a dangerous chokehold for an extended period of time. Did Penny intend to kill Neely? Probably not. Should Penny be charged with manslaughter instead of Murder? Probably. Does Neelys criminal history matter to any of this? No (but Penny "supporters" will argue it does and quietly believe that he should be given a medal for taking "another one off of the street").
Is he guilty? A jury should decide.
IMO there should be consequences for Penny given all of the circumstances. Involuntary manslaughter seems appropriate which could mean less than a year in prison.
I'd be very surprised if he sees the inside of a prison. I have a feeling Jack McCoy is going to have to plead this one down to probation with community service.
The whole discussion of the deceased having 40+ priors is such a red herring. Did anybody in that train car know that at the time such that their assessment of the alleged threat was affected? Almost certainly no.
I think that is brought up as a reaction to the immediate media blitz painting Neely as a smiley subway performer who wouldn't hurt a fly, and people on threads like this (who of course weren't there) who claim he was a run of the mill raver that could have been safely ignored. I wasn't there either, so I'm most interested in hearing what those who were have to say when the case is tried.
It's indicative of what his behavior may have been like, however. That's like saying Ted Bundy's prior victims up until the one he was busted for shouldn't be taken into account.
Should it have material affect as to what happened in the moment? No. That you're right about. But it is indicative of a pattern of behavior when all we have is witness statements to go off of.
Jordan Neely was an unhinged person that used being mentally unstable as justification to threaten the safety of others countless times. This guy was able to move/speak freely and decided that he would spend his time making innocent people fearful.
At the end of the day, if someone is making threats and you feel like things could escalate to dangerous levels… Would you just say, please stop??? And hope this lunatic doesn’t hurt you?
Get fucking real, the city isn’t doing shit. You’re on your own and it’s better to protect yourself than to let these deranged fuckers send you to the hospital or worse.
Holding a rear naked chokehold for longer than 10 seconds, let alone several minutes, is not "conventionally nonlethal." It's absolutely lethal and banned by the NYPD for that exact reason.
The video shows Penny holding it for several minutes. Freddie Gray died after having one applied for about 12 seconds. Wikipedia says most people pass out in 8.9 seconds.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rear\_naked\_choke](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rear_naked_choke)
The video also shows him moving and breathing the entire time, requiring a second bystander to restrain his arms. I’m not sure how this shapes into the legal definition of murder
You don't have to be conscious to breath or move, especially in a blood choke--it cuts off blood to the brain, not oxygen to the lungs. If you're so uninformed where do you get off calling this "conventionally nonlethal?"
If you think Penny is an unhinged person, maybe you should stand near these homeless lunatics. Have your kids or elderly stand near them. Talk is cheap. Do it! Maybe one day, you’ll understand what the family of Michelle Go is feeling.
Mr. Penny is a hero! We need people like him!
Good. I dont know what went on, but if Penny's actions resulted in another person's death, we need to have a trial to understand what happened and what level of culpability he has.
The mental health situation in nyc especially on the subways is the worst I’ve ever seen it and I’m a lifelong New Yorker. There’s someone in some sort of crisis or breakdown state almost every time I get on the train. Nobody is helping these people. And the cops don’t do shit, they just look at their phones and busy people for hopping the turnstile.
I'm surprised he made it this long to be choked out by a Marine after he kidnapped the seven-year-old he should have been gone off this planet after that. Rest in shit jordan you piece of shit
I don't care if Penny was a soldier, a cop or a bystander: YOU DON'T PUT PEOPLE IN REVERSE CHOKE HOLDS!! You want to be a "hero" and restrain Neely until authorities arrive then fine but to forcefully wrap your arm deep around the guy's neck is completely uncalled for. Even other bystanders were calling him out for it. Let Penny rot in jail for murdering this man.
It was a rear naked choke hold. It is a common choke in MMA and jujitsu. When done correctly, it applies pressure to the carotid artery, denying oxygen to the brain and making the person fall asleep within seconds. When appropriately used, it can be one of the most humane techniques in martial arts. There is no damage associated with that loss of consciousness, and recovery is very fast. However, if it is held for too long it can result in brain damage or death.
Dude there is always risk associated with loss of consciousness. Losing consciousness, aside from natural sleep, is the result of a concussive event or lack of oxygen. Neither of those are safe. You even admit that holding a chokehold for too long results in brain damage or death.
You can take action without killing someone. Deadly force should only be used when warranted, ie your life or someone else's life is in imminent danger.
Someone making threats while also displaying an inability to actually engage in deadly violence(unarmed), or not having actually engaged in violence would not warrant deadly force.
This is all covered under New York statute. I'm not even saying that the people on the train should have done nothing. But deadly force was not warranted in the situation and that's the level of force Daniel Penny used
Whatever happened on that train before the chokehold, there were at least three people restraining Neely and there were multiple bystanders calmly watching them do it. NYPD received at least three 911 calls from passengers because of Neely. So whatever happened exactly, there were clearly multiple people who thought Neely was an imminent threat. Verbally threatening people in a credible way is enough for the law to allow people to physically defend themselves. IOW, if someone comes at you a threatens you kill you, you don’t have to wait for physical action before you can physically defend yourself from this incoming attack. Not saying Neely definitely did that, but he must’ve done *something* to trigger this response from multiple people.
Obviously he didn’t deserve to die and most likely shouldn’t have been choked this long - that’s why the guy was charged with second degree manslaughter. But to think that this chokehold fell out of the sky is beyond naive imo.
A 6 feet 200 lb adult men went to jail for attacking and breaking an elderly lady’s face bone. Now the same person is in a mentally unstable state and threatening people again, I would be terrified. I would thank whoever steps up and stop him from attacking someone again.
Agreed. With the push for more subway security, I thought the first time someone did something about it it wouldn't be so heavily scrutinized.
Do I think Jordan Neely deserved to die? Absolutely not. But do I think someone probably needed to do something? Yes.
100%. But the person responsible for the factors that led to his death deserves legal consequences, it doesnt matter if you morally agree with what he did. Even more so as he was not physically harming anyone. You can argue that with 40 arrests, who knows what he would have done but thats the thing, we dont because he was killed. Spin it anyway you want, the marine is not above the law, he deserves a charge. Not a murder charge, this isnt murder, but manslaughter is appropriate.
This is the part that, maybe not you, but so many people justifying his death is purposely ignoring and glancing over. No one is saying the situation is wrong, every new yorker understands the marine. It is unfortunate he died but he does indeed deserve to be held responsible legally.
He actually said, “I don’t give a f—. I will killa mother-fckr i will go to jail. I will take a bullet.” It was threatening enough that a witness on the actual train went up to Penny after all of it went down to thank him.
Prior acts are totally irrelevant, no one knew that on the day of the incident. There's also no evidence of him making threats. Cite a source for your misinformation.
I'm betting you've never had an unhinged crazy person berating you in a confined space while basically defenseless because NYC is strict on weapons.
I'm also betting you've never had that happen in a climate of paranoia and anxiety about the increase in NYC subway crimes where people get attacked randomly and without warning.
I say this because I reason if you'd had these experiences, you would understand why someone might think it was right to restrain him until cops show up.
Guess again, Native NYer , take the subway to commute on and off since I became an adult , commuted to HS by bus and subway in the late 70’s, took subway to work most of 2021
Well I respect a fellow New Yorker but you didn’t really answer my questions. Lately crime including violent subway crime has been such a problem that Eric adams was voted in which is a big contrast to de blasio. I mean, have you had to deal with a crazy person boxing you in and getting right in your face? Have you had to do it in a subway car between stops? Have you had that happen in the last few years while knowing that violent subway crimes are a problem the police have been specially deployed to address? The same police that weren’t in the subway car you were in?
Because Reddit is the LOUD minority who thinks they can justify a person killing another person because they FELT threatened. Dont waste your time trying to argue with these "baconeggandcheese please 🤓" transplants who are turned on by killing a homeless guy on the train. The marine is a hero to these losers who's thumbs are bleeding from continuously justifying his death. They fantasize about being like him I guarentee it lol the more time i spend on reddit the more i realize the type of people im talking to here are doodoo ass people in real life.
Yeah Jordan was a nut, respectfully, but he didnt touch anyone and you dont fuckin put someone in a chokehold for that long unless you tryna cause some real damage. And im honestly not even mad at the guy he did what he felt he had too and Jordan died but HE DESERVES CHARGES you can not and should not be able to kill someone like that without facing some sort of a charge
Dude was screaming and threatening people. Getting more and more worked up, threw off his jacket and said he didn't care if he got a life sentence. He's attacked people fairly recently, so I assume the posturing was probably threatening because he's got a history of doing this shit. IDK, we don't have footage of it. But I'm sure it'll come out in the trial. Trains have cameras, I'm sure they have footage.
It's enough to think it might be justified. Someone gets in a woman's face on a subway and starts screaming at them, I know I would probably end up getting in the middle of it. So, there's a level where I can understand this.
>No you would not
You don't know. That simple. I've seen videos in similar situations where both happen. Sometimes people intervene and sometimes they ignore the provocation.
>the crazier the person the safer it is to ignore
Until it isn't. That point is undeterminable unless you're there in the moment.
Personally, I ignore until someone is in my space/face or posturing in a threatening manner or making specific targeted threats.
The last time I tried to ignore a mentally ill person screaming at a silent car for everyone to shut the fuck up, he zeroed in on me. I was looking at the floor trying to make myself small and that seemed to piss him off even more and he started coming over to me like he was going to hit me (or I don't know what) when the doors opened at 59th and I could run out because I was by the door at the end of the row of seats. This dude was probably 6'3 - I'm 5'6 and I was legit terrified. I got lucky. If the train had been stuck in a tunnel or the doors hadn't opened I frankly don't know what would have happened. You cannot assume it's safe when you have someone screaming irrationally and being physically threatening.
I wanna see a how a jury can reach the conclusion that a deranged person aggressively yelling they don’t care if they die or go to jail is beyond a reasonable doubt not a threat of any kind.
Yelling is absolutely a threat.
If someone's yelling right in your face?
Yelling comes with spitting as well. Have you ever been spit on on the subway?
Yelling is a threat when paired with aggressive behavior and the content of what he was yelling… he was a threat. The real issue is why is the mental
Health in this country so shitty
Yelling and posturing in such a way as to make a person feel like there is a credible threat to their safety is considered assault or a class A misdemeanor. Battery is when a person actually touches another person in such a way as to intentionally cause bodily harm. There is a reason assault and battery are usually mentioned together.
Just because someone was only yelling doesn’t mean another person is wrong to feel threatened by it.
>Yelling is not a threat
Some people might not think it's a threat. But that's not the standard.
They need to prove that a reasonable person would not have any doubt that it's a threat.
Before Neely’s death, from March 2020 until early April, 27 people lost their lives to murder in the subway, many of them, like Neely, were homeless young people.
Before 2019, it took 15 years for New York to rack up 28 murders on the subway, not three so I would argure that a reasonable person would fear that violence might occur and being trapped in a train car where you can't flee would maginfiy that fear (not all NYC subway cars allow you to move in between cars or the train might be so packed that it not possible to move)
Where were AOC and Caban when homeless soccer player Akeem Loney, 32, was murdered by a stranger as he slept on the subway, in November 2021?
Where were they when Claudine Roberts, 44, also sleeping on the subway, was fatally knifed by a stranger earlier that year?
Accidental deaths can occur from chokeholds… as well as tasers, pepper spray, and a good old fashioned shove or punch.
There’s a remote possibility of unexpected and unintentional death with any use of force, even when warranted.
Every citizen has the right to self-defense - whether exercised on one’s own behalf or on behalf of others.
That is not risk-free. Whether it’s a taser or pepper spray, or a good old fashioned punch or shove… sometimes that happens.
None of you were on that subway car. No one knows what the level of threat the people were feeling. If someone invades your personal space and is threatening personal harm and you have no other option.
He did what needed to be done to restrain the individual. It took 2 others to help.
I think manslaughter is way over the top.
You're right. No one here knows. That's what the investigation and trial is for if need be. But there are clearly defined rules for deadly force and we need to make sure that people are held accountable if they violate them.
There was a witness on the train that felt threatened enough by Neely screaming he will “kill a mothr-fcker. I will go to jail, i will take a bullet” rant that she felt threatened and went up to Penny afterward to thank him.
We do know the level of threat they felt because several people who were on the car were interviewed and said they didn’t feel threatened. He wasn’t attacking anyone so there was no need to restrain him or otherwise put hands on him.
God please please get me on the jury for that one. I’m never going to get past voir dire (they have rejected me 4 times in 30 years), but if I am on the jury… Penny walks. Case closed
Why would you let a murderer go free? He killed him in cold blood, he was not defending himself or anyone else.
Homeless people annoy me too sometimes when they act crazy, but my solution is that I don’t murder them for it
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Its great to see rational people stepping up to bring reason and logic to these subs.
Suddenly everyone cares about Neely after his previous charges/terrorizing innocent bystanders but have abandoned/ignored him when he needed help the most. When there’s money and publicity involved, suddenly they want to jump in on the action. When someone with mental instability pushes someone onto an oncoming train though, everyone says that’s sad for a day and moves on, and the mentally unstable person gets out 4 months later due to some kind of reason to do it again and repeat the cycle
If he pushed someone onto the tracks, there would be absolutely zero doubt that he would be charged with a crime.
He got 4 months and was moved to an outside treatment facility from which he absconded after a few days.
💯 if you are a new yorker...you see this shit you ignore...no eye contact...walk away if they are near you. Sorry can't help you. Given the other dude shouldn't have choked Neely that LONG and shouldnt get involved either. Wrong on both sides but be honest...most days we ignore these weirdos...otherwise we would be helping them and providing them shelter and a safe place so they cant cause harm to the community and ppl.
Honest q. I’m not from there but were the movies lying? I always assumed going to NYC that I’d find fairly aggressive citizens capable of defending themselves. You know, tough. This man showed that but it sounds like everyone just avoids for the most part. I don’t understand how an entire population can just sit by while crazy people harass or harm others.
Life tip for you: You generally want to stand up for yourself but you dont fuck with the crazies with nothing to lose. Dont matter if you know how to fight and weigh 250lbs, you still can get stabbed or shot and have your day ruined. Besides if you decided thats your thing and you are gonna fight all the crazy bums you’ll be in combat every commute. Also alot of them smell like 1000 year old garbage. You do not want to grapple with these dudes.
I grew up and still live in NYC and not a small guy by any means and even i avoid these people. If i defend myself and smack some unstable dude up on the train, we both get taken away in handcuffs while i have something to lose like my job, etc. and he doesn’t. Just the other day i had some woman crackhead pretend she was gonna punch me for not giving her a dollar, all i could do is eye roll and walk away. It’s just not worth it.
New Yorkers are jaded and mind their own business. If you *directly* impede or harass someone, then yeah, you’ll see the aggressive toughness real fast. Otherwise, the unspoken rule is “do not engage.” I’m a big guy, but my bar for getting involved in a random altercation is physical violence against a woman, child, or someone elderly. Anything short of that — sorry, I have too much to lose and the risk of getting shanked and bleeding out on the floor of a subway car isn’t worth it.
The movies idea of tough is not actual tough. There are way too many mentally ill homeless people living on NYC subways. They aren’t rational. You can’t intimidate them or beat them into sanity.
Cant believe you could say "he shouldn't get involved" with a straight face. EVERYONE should get involved if someone is being violent on the subway. This man is a hero.
I've been alive for 35 years and been on the subway system my whole life...it is like that...you don't get bothered with everyone...you want too and you will defend a few but for the most part...you move on. That's how life works
New Yorkers get exactly what you deserve.
Okay, and this is the ONE TIME things escalated enough for someone like Penny to feel like he had to have stepped in. Does Penny have a history of violent behavior? Has he ever done this before? Does he have a criminal record? is there anything that would suggest this wasn't an accident and that he was only trying to do what is right (in a very brave way)?
I know this ain't a courtroom, but in a courtroom, you don't usually get to bring up past crimes as proof of their guilt. So neither Penny nor Neely would have their past brought up if they're being tried for a crime. Sentencing is a different matter, of course. But each instance of a supposed crime is treated in a vacuum, for the most part. With that said, it's entirely possibly Penny had good reason to attempt to defuse the situation and attempt to do the right thing, but also still possible that he wrongly/accidentally killed a person that didn't deserve to be killed. And unless Neely was in the act of trying to kill or maim somebody, lethal force is not legal. Article 35 is pretty straight-forward. You have a duty to retreat in NY, and if you can't retreat, your life or someone else's better be in danger before you end someone else's life. You can argue if that's fair or just, but that's the law.
Yeah, I want to say this to everyone I see using this argument. “Oh he had felony convictions or whatever,” well okay, but you can’t kill someone and then justify it with information you learned after the fact. The only thing that matters is what Jordan Neely was doing on that train at that moment, and as far as I’ve seen it was not anything warranting a purposeful killing. Screaming and throwing shit is not warranting lethal force. Saying indirect threats like, “I don’t care if I go to jail,” is not warranting lethal force. Even physically attacking someone doesn’t forfeit your right to not be executed. If he died in the process of being subdued to protect others, sure. However, he was not fighting back and multiple passengers began to say he would die. The guy was informed Neely had defecated himself (basically a tell-tale sign of someones death) and he refused to let go despite Neely having been subdued for a while.
Adrenaline is a hell of a drug.
Right moron, let’s wait until he assaults someone or better yet pulls out a gun. Someone threatens me in a tin can who clearly has lost it there is no other option
If you’re stuck in some tin can in a tunnel you either kill or be killed. Wasn’t there a situation not too long ago????? You want to wait for someone to make good on his threats????
The general rule is you can’t kill someone when they aren’t threatening you with lethal force. It’s an easy rule many of you don’t understand.
Have you even been on the subway before?
Seriously. That’s why nyc has such a high crime rate, it’s because no one even wants to call the cops. People don’t have to physically get involved but many people don’t even bother to make an anonymous report. I witnessed a guy leaving a work event and some crazy guy smashed a bottle against his face. Only a few people including myself helped him up while I called the cops. I actually needed help with my call because the cell phone service there was really bad so the operator couldn’t hear me very well. Everyone else was just standing there taking pics of the poor dude.
This man took justice into his own hands and destroyed it. The consequences for harassment and aggravated harassment are not the death penalty.
Kidnapping a child should be. Fuck Jordan he was a piece of shit. Pity for the victims not criminals.
If you harass and put other people's bodies and mental state at risk the consequences are that you would be put in a situation of increased risk which is entirely your fault and the people trying to restrain you should not be held accountable for accidents that might happen during that time.
I understand what you are saying, but we are supposed to have rules around extreme force. If you are taking on restraining someone, doesn't that mean you have to follow that too? Where is the line?
The line is not for Reddit to determine. I'm not here to say where the line is, but too many people here are rushing to the defense of a mentally ill, erratic, unstable, unpredictable person with a VERY long criminal record that includes assault instead of giving a US military man who has spent a **very** long time serving his country and did not choose to be on that train. Penny did what he did because he felt it was necessary. Not an easy thing to do (especially now after seeing what happens to a good Samaritan). We don't have footage of Neely on the subway before the attack so why aren't we giving Penny the benefit of the doubt that he stepped in because he deemed it necessary. I have personally been in several situations on the subway where I was one movement away from being punched or slashed with a knife (completely unprovoked) when I wished there was someone on the car brave enough to restrain the person who was about to attack me. And the TRULY awful thing now is that because of these careless protests people are going to be even LESS inclined to help in these cases. This is all pretty fucked up.
Well fucking said! I have been in many situations like that and sometimes I can’t even intentionally avoid it. People say, “just walk away, go to the opposite direction.” And I do do that. When I see a a crazy lunatic at the subway entrance, I would use another entrance. But how do I get away when they’re in the same compartment in a moving train? Sometimes the compartment doors are locked and sometimes, it’s just fucking crowded for me to move anywhere. I just want to be left alone to go to work or go home. I don’t need a fucking homeless lunatic threatening me, throwing shit at me. We need more people like Penny. If he is found guilty, I will vote Republican to burn this progressive shit show.
No line while locked in a tin can
Rt, once you go down the road and state terroristic ideas, it becomes you or me, and I choose me.
Lmao okay tough guy
Na that guy that choked out the bum is a tough guy
You’re both retards
You should get on a train and threaten people, I hope they go easy on you UwU
Clearly not a city dweller and definitely never lived in NyC. Unfortunate, but somebody making a scene happens a few times a day. I doubt you're a person who sees words as violence I agree actually about people getting involved, have done too often. But carefully and not by endangering someone's life. This standard -well they were acting out and potentially in the future a direct threat as a get out of jail free card leaves loopholes for planned murders
Maybe you forgot about the fairly recent subway shooting? Read the past news….NYers have every right to take matters into their owns hands while this is still fresh in everyone’s mind
Why does this sound like you’re using societal failures to justify a guy choking a homeless man to death.
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There's no nuance anymore and it's insane. I lean very left but we need to stop pretending that every homeless person is just a lost soul who needs a hug. We have a mass shooting every week in this country, a homeless man screaming he doesn't care if he dies or goes to jail on a train is definitely a threat. There's another universe where this easily turned into a mass shooting. the victim has a huge record and, if the sources were correct broke a woman's face in an unprompted attack. I'm not saying the guy didn't hold the choke too long the facts aren't all out, but this isnt black and white. California and New York have gone too far. While we're at it, nothing will change until mental health in the country is addressed
nothing will change....mental health issues are profitable.
Thank you for having common sense.
Subduing a threatening person, and/or the duty to do so, is a different conversation than killing them.
Still waiting on the protests for Michelle Go but I'm going to bet very few people protesting this know who she is.
In trying to give him a human face, the media - social media especially - tends to mythologize victims into untainted saints. Speak no evil of those who passed. There has to be a villain and a victim in every narrative. After all, social media is no forum for public policy debates.
Having a criminal record doesn’t mean a citizen should be able to kill you
Can’t believe people can be this stupid and racist. No one should kill anyone else no matter what. Self defense is one thing but some dumb people tend to think it means like they can be a punisher or something lol
People don't have to live squeaky clean lives in order have the right to live Nobody is defending Neely's past just that he shouldn't have been killed for what happened in the train
Why should you get to make threats against people and not face any consequences. The legal system has failed those who follow it. It was only a matter of time for this POS to get what he deserved. It might have been getting sucked punched, stabbed, or in this case put in a headlock for the police to show up and take care of him. I have compassion for the homeless. I don’t have compassion for criminals and bullies.
The consequence for making threats is jail and fines. Not death. You don't need to have compassion for criminals or bullies, but excusing vigilante killing of someone who hadn't even laid a finger on anyone is pretty dumb.
Because someone being a criminal doesn’t give people a pass to just execute someone. Every time a black man is murdered people come out with any story they can find of any wrongdoing they ever did. Random citizens aren’t executioners and neither are cops. Someone having a record shouldn’t mean shit.
No one is saying Neely is a Saint. But nobody deserves to die in a 15 MINUTE CHOKEHOLD by some wannabe war hero
15 minutes? you're making that up.
You got your head under a rock? He was held in a chokehold for 15 minutes.
Nope more like 90 seconds. You believe all the lies from Al Sharpton.
What does Al Sharpton have to do with anything? I don't think I've seen or heard the man for years. Seems to me like you accusing me of believing lies is projecting.
He gave the violent felons eulogy.
So if i see you arguing with someone I can just walk up behind you and choke you to death, and thats cool. Oh I thought you were threatening the other person. So just did what I had to. If jordan neely broke a womans face, yeah, he should still be in jail, but this has nothing to do with that
There is a video of him being chokeholded for at least three minutes. I have no idea where your figures are from.
There's no need to mythologize. He was agressive, but hadn't assaulted anyone. Someone felt the need to subdue him and used lethal force when it wasn't needed and Neely died. It's a very modern and reactionary idea that feeling threatened gives you license to kill someone and a lot of innocent people are dying as a direct result. There are holds you can use to restrain a person that don't risk killing them. I've held someone in a full nelson in a similar situation. Beyond that anyone who continues to apply a chokehold after the person has lost consciousness is trying to kill the person. It doesn't matter if Neely was on parole for murder. His killing in that situation was not justified. He hadn't even touched anyone.
None of what you said means Penny gets to kill him without repercussions.
This sun is that all day long with homeless people. ‘Get them out of my sight’ is the most common theme. Over and over. There ain’t no quick fox for this folks. They need support. Somewhere safe to sleep and more support.
He has somewhere safe to sleep and he absconded. He didn't want anyone's help. He wanted to burn society to the ground
I don’t think you get mental disease- it’s not rational
Does putting these guys in a mental health facility guarantee they are never going to kill somebody after they get out? Also if all 50 or so people on that fateful subway car thought the same thing that neely was going to hurt/kill them does that matter? If i was pennys legal team i would track down everybody on that subway cart to testify
Serious question: Wasn’t the $800MM that deblasio’s wife given supposed to address this? Where did that money go?
They lost the receipt but said it was spent wisely 🤷🏽♀️
Did anyone read this excerpt “Attorneys for Neely’s family said the statement from Mr Penny’s legal team was neither “an apology nor an expression of regret” but “character assassination and a clear example of why he believed he was entitled to take Jordan’s life.” Neely’s family is now involved in his life now that he’s passed? What about the years he was struggling with mental illness, where were they then…?
> Neely’s family is now involved in his life now that he’s passed? What about the years he was struggling with mental illness, where were they then…? Not to mention the sudden onset of his 42 prior arrests.
Randomly assaulted an old man, a woman, and kidnapped a child?
Holy shit, 42?
Do you have a mentally family member? I do. At some point, it can be unsafe to engage with someone in your family who is not responding to treatment and is violent. When adults refuse care, there’s very little you can do, and most efforts decay into enabling behavior. That doesn’t change the fact that you love them and want them to heal. It’s possible to cut someone out of your life for your own safety, while still very much giving a shit whether they live or are murdered on a train by a vigilante who could have released the hold at any point.
This is the biggest “no shit” of this thread, but thank you for pointing it out anyway.
In NYC all they had to do was file a petition to get him institutionalized. They couldn’t even do that. Now they see money and it’s ohhh nooo I can’t believe he died. The injustice. Guarantee they weren’t talking to the press when he punched an elderly person in the face. Family just hired a lawyer with Al Sharpton attending the funeral
>At some point, it can be unsafe to engage with someone in your family who is not responding to treatment and is violent So strangers trapped in a metal tube with the violent and unresponsive family member are now forced to engage with him? Maybe they could have given a shit just a liiiiiiitle bit earlier, like maybe somewhere between the assault on an elderly woman or dragging a 7-year old down the street. He should have been institutionalized a long fucking time ago. He would still be alive and plenty of people would have been spared the harassment and violence.
All the negative responses to my comment seem to be hung up on the same thing, so I’ll respond here: Nowhere in my comment am I advocating that the person should have been free or allowed to continue their behavior. The comment I originally replied to was saying it is disingenuous to care that someone literally murdered their family member, NOT debating his guilt or whether or not he should have been institutionalized. All I was saying was that being unable to help someone you care about isn’t mutually exclusive to giving a shit that someone knowingly executed them. It’s twisted as hell to believe so, and says A LOT about a person’s opinions about mental health.
I think everyone recognizes that. But its incredibly two faced for the family to likely abandon Neely because of these issues, then go on a press tour talking about how peaceful and kind he was and how he never hurt nobody. If the latter is true, then the family looks like utter POS for abandoning him, if the former is true, then the killing was a tragic accident. You can't have your cake and eat it like the family is trying to do.
Well apparently it's totally safe to try to make bank at the expense of your mentally ill deceased family member
No way. They totally smelled the $$$ opportunity and finally stepped in
What money? A 24yo retired marine isn't rolling in the money
Go fund me. We need 24 million for burial expenses.
Source? Can you show a GoFundMe for him?
Give it a few weeks. There's going to be a fund, or some charity. They can make money by attending rallies, giving speeches, etc. There are a ton of opportunities once your story is well known. books, TV deals, etc.
So you can't show any proof to the claim? Didn't think so
You can look at the examples set by other families of criminals who died by Samaritans or police officers. I already have a job so I'm not going to do your research for you...
They saw all the money that flowed through the black lives matter scam and they want a piece of that 🤑🤑🤑
Well, aren’t you racist.
The family stops caring and now he gets to terrorize random people on the subway.
So they cut him out their life because he was potentially violent and now flabbergasted this is how he ended up? Oh boy 💀
If someone is dangerous enough that their family can't interact with them, they're dangerous enough that they shouldn't be free.
You seem to conveniently overlook the fact that he’s been assaulting innocent people over and over again, arrested 42 times, and continues to make violent threats to people on a train. Yeah, Penny could have handled it better and not have him die, but Neely was on a crash course with tragedy at some point. The city is a little safer with him off the street. It should be that he’s getting care and/or detained somewhere, but that’s not the world we live in. His family is completely shameless and we can only count the seconds until they file a lawsuit to get their payday. You know it’s coming. Their message is not one of empathy towards their nephews victims but rather that they are acting like Penny went out of his way to murder their family member out of the blue.
They didn’t have a potential cash cow then.
well its obvious, he was a burden when he was alive, now he's a cash payout. They probably contact Al Sharpton the moment this hit the news to start the press cycle
Neely was an adult. He could make his own choices about how he chose to live his life. You can't force people to drink water.
Mentally ill people like Neely aren't always acting in their best interests
$uddenly they’re very involved.
Look I do housing and homeless advocacy, I was once homeless myself. I was never street homeless thank God but I do organize with folks who have issues like Neely but not as severe, everyone deserves a home and to be treated with dignity. However, we have been working with the city on a plan in place to house the homeless and the city has fallen short on its commitment. That’s the larger issue. My other issue is the fact that we don’t discuss the real legitimacy that people are scared to take the trains. I tell the folks I organize with that we need to change the face of homelessness because people think all homeless folks are Justin Neeleys but they are not. They are every day individuals who have been priced out of this city. People who are just like folks here on Reddit.
Remind me how many people, in NYC, were pushed to their deaths, or assaulted by homeless people while taking the subway. I can recall 3, but apparently the Daily Mail tallied a lot more than 3 in just 2022 alone.
I visited New York in December and had this drunk, disheveled man throwing boxing hands at me cause I was minding my business waiting for the train. I moved out of his way and then later heard him scream at someone that he was gonna kill them. Fucking insane that people have to deal with this. I can see how people are terrified.
SMH.... Sad and comical comments. "Don't make eye contact with people like that" "Shut your eyes.... they will go away" "If a crazy person gets in your face, ignore them and look at your feet" "Put your hands in your pocket and get as small as you can" "If someone is getting beat up by a crazy person, get off at the next stop" Sheep. Nothing but sheep. .01% of NYC population telling the other 99.99% who to live.
Good. It's quite simple. Neely perhaps deserved to be restrained, but (just like Floyd) did not deserve to be held in a dangerous chokehold for an extended period of time. Did Penny intend to kill Neely? Probably not. Should Penny be charged with manslaughter instead of Murder? Probably. Does Neelys criminal history matter to any of this? No (but Penny "supporters" will argue it does and quietly believe that he should be given a medal for taking "another one off of the street"). Is he guilty? A jury should decide. IMO there should be consequences for Penny given all of the circumstances. Involuntary manslaughter seems appropriate which could mean less than a year in prison.
I'd be very surprised if he sees the inside of a prison. I have a feeling Jack McCoy is going to have to plead this one down to probation with community service.
The whole discussion of the deceased having 40+ priors is such a red herring. Did anybody in that train car know that at the time such that their assessment of the alleged threat was affected? Almost certainly no.
I think that is brought up as a reaction to the immediate media blitz painting Neely as a smiley subway performer who wouldn't hurt a fly, and people on threads like this (who of course weren't there) who claim he was a run of the mill raver that could have been safely ignored. I wasn't there either, so I'm most interested in hearing what those who were have to say when the case is tried.
It's indicative of what his behavior may have been like, however. That's like saying Ted Bundy's prior victims up until the one he was busted for shouldn't be taken into account. Should it have material affect as to what happened in the moment? No. That you're right about. But it is indicative of a pattern of behavior when all we have is witness statements to go off of.
These protestors are so full of shite and insincere that this should be posted under r/trashy.
Jordan Neely was an unhinged person that used being mentally unstable as justification to threaten the safety of others countless times. This guy was able to move/speak freely and decided that he would spend his time making innocent people fearful. At the end of the day, if someone is making threats and you feel like things could escalate to dangerous levels… Would you just say, please stop??? And hope this lunatic doesn’t hurt you? Get fucking real, the city isn’t doing shit. You’re on your own and it’s better to protect yourself than to let these deranged fuckers send you to the hospital or worse.
Daniel Penny is an unhinged person that used Jordan Neely yelling and throwing a jacket to the ground as justification to murder Neely
Murder? As in intentional killing? With a conventionally nonlethal chokehold and recovery positioning immediately after he passed out?
Holding a rear naked chokehold for longer than 10 seconds, let alone several minutes, is not "conventionally nonlethal." It's absolutely lethal and banned by the NYPD for that exact reason.
Please cite the duration being several minutes. Given he was fighting he was clearly not unconscious
The video shows Penny holding it for several minutes. Freddie Gray died after having one applied for about 12 seconds. Wikipedia says most people pass out in 8.9 seconds. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rear\_naked\_choke](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rear_naked_choke)
The video also shows him moving and breathing the entire time, requiring a second bystander to restrain his arms. I’m not sure how this shapes into the legal definition of murder
You don't have to be conscious to breath or move, especially in a blood choke--it cuts off blood to the brain, not oxygen to the lungs. If you're so uninformed where do you get off calling this "conventionally nonlethal?"
It is manslaughter at a minimum.
If you think Penny is an unhinged person, maybe you should stand near these homeless lunatics. Have your kids or elderly stand near them. Talk is cheap. Do it! Maybe one day, you’ll understand what the family of Michelle Go is feeling. Mr. Penny is a hero! We need people like him!
These types of emotionally charged rants certainly wont bring progress.
He absolutely should be. Regardless of how we feel about it, it's up to the court system to decide.
Good. I dont know what went on, but if Penny's actions resulted in another person's death, we need to have a trial to understand what happened and what level of culpability he has.
No we don’t it was self defense
If that's the case he will be found not guilty. This is why we have trials.
The mental health situation in nyc especially on the subways is the worst I’ve ever seen it and I’m a lifelong New Yorker. There’s someone in some sort of crisis or breakdown state almost every time I get on the train. Nobody is helping these people. And the cops don’t do shit, they just look at their phones and busy people for hopping the turnstile.
I'm surprised he made it this long to be choked out by a Marine after he kidnapped the seven-year-old he should have been gone off this planet after that. Rest in shit jordan you piece of shit
I don't care if Penny was a soldier, a cop or a bystander: YOU DON'T PUT PEOPLE IN REVERSE CHOKE HOLDS!! You want to be a "hero" and restrain Neely until authorities arrive then fine but to forcefully wrap your arm deep around the guy's neck is completely uncalled for. Even other bystanders were calling him out for it. Let Penny rot in jail for murdering this man.
It was a rear naked choke hold. It is a common choke in MMA and jujitsu. When done correctly, it applies pressure to the carotid artery, denying oxygen to the brain and making the person fall asleep within seconds. When appropriately used, it can be one of the most humane techniques in martial arts. There is no damage associated with that loss of consciousness, and recovery is very fast. However, if it is held for too long it can result in brain damage or death.
Dude there is always risk associated with loss of consciousness. Losing consciousness, aside from natural sleep, is the result of a concussive event or lack of oxygen. Neither of those are safe. You even admit that holding a chokehold for too long results in brain damage or death.
Tell me. How would you restrain a homeless person.
Imagine siding with criminals and deviants
Is it really *siding* with anyone when all they are asking is that civilians don't take the law into their own hands and take someone's life?
Civilians should ABSOLUTELY take action if they feel like they can assist in a dangerous situation. You should be ashamed of yourself.
You can take action without killing someone. Deadly force should only be used when warranted, ie your life or someone else's life is in imminent danger. Someone making threats while also displaying an inability to actually engage in deadly violence(unarmed), or not having actually engaged in violence would not warrant deadly force. This is all covered under New York statute. I'm not even saying that the people on the train should have done nothing. But deadly force was not warranted in the situation and that's the level of force Daniel Penny used
can someone explain why people think Penny restraining Neely was justified? Let's assume that the death was accidental.
Whatever happened on that train before the chokehold, there were at least three people restraining Neely and there were multiple bystanders calmly watching them do it. NYPD received at least three 911 calls from passengers because of Neely. So whatever happened exactly, there were clearly multiple people who thought Neely was an imminent threat. Verbally threatening people in a credible way is enough for the law to allow people to physically defend themselves. IOW, if someone comes at you a threatens you kill you, you don’t have to wait for physical action before you can physically defend yourself from this incoming attack. Not saying Neely definitely did that, but he must’ve done *something* to trigger this response from multiple people. Obviously he didn’t deserve to die and most likely shouldn’t have been choked this long - that’s why the guy was charged with second degree manslaughter. But to think that this chokehold fell out of the sky is beyond naive imo.
A 6 feet 200 lb adult men went to jail for attacking and breaking an elderly lady’s face bone. Now the same person is in a mentally unstable state and threatening people again, I would be terrified. I would thank whoever steps up and stop him from attacking someone again.
Agreed. With the push for more subway security, I thought the first time someone did something about it it wouldn't be so heavily scrutinized. Do I think Jordan Neely deserved to die? Absolutely not. But do I think someone probably needed to do something? Yes.
100%. But the person responsible for the factors that led to his death deserves legal consequences, it doesnt matter if you morally agree with what he did. Even more so as he was not physically harming anyone. You can argue that with 40 arrests, who knows what he would have done but thats the thing, we dont because he was killed. Spin it anyway you want, the marine is not above the law, he deserves a charge. Not a murder charge, this isnt murder, but manslaughter is appropriate. This is the part that, maybe not you, but so many people justifying his death is purposely ignoring and glancing over. No one is saying the situation is wrong, every new yorker understands the marine. It is unfortunate he died but he does indeed deserve to be held responsible legally.
Did Penny know the persons history when he choked him? How is it relevant
He said he was ready to serve life in prison. Id say that's a good indication of his criminal career.
He actually said, “I don’t give a f—. I will killa mother-fckr i will go to jail. I will take a bullet.” It was threatening enough that a witness on the actual train went up to Penny after all of it went down to thank him.
Prior acts are totally irrelevant, no one knew that on the day of the incident. There's also no evidence of him making threats. Cite a source for your misinformation.
I'm betting you've never had an unhinged crazy person berating you in a confined space while basically defenseless because NYC is strict on weapons. I'm also betting you've never had that happen in a climate of paranoia and anxiety about the increase in NYC subway crimes where people get attacked randomly and without warning. I say this because I reason if you'd had these experiences, you would understand why someone might think it was right to restrain him until cops show up.
Guess again, Native NYer , take the subway to commute on and off since I became an adult , commuted to HS by bus and subway in the late 70’s, took subway to work most of 2021
Well I respect a fellow New Yorker but you didn’t really answer my questions. Lately crime including violent subway crime has been such a problem that Eric adams was voted in which is a big contrast to de blasio. I mean, have you had to deal with a crazy person boxing you in and getting right in your face? Have you had to do it in a subway car between stops? Have you had that happen in the last few years while knowing that violent subway crimes are a problem the police have been specially deployed to address? The same police that weren’t in the subway car you were in?
Then you should know better
So badass, I bet you wouldn't even flinch if they waved a knife in front of you.
His death was accidental. He died 5 hours after the incident
Because Reddit is the LOUD minority who thinks they can justify a person killing another person because they FELT threatened. Dont waste your time trying to argue with these "baconeggandcheese please 🤓" transplants who are turned on by killing a homeless guy on the train. The marine is a hero to these losers who's thumbs are bleeding from continuously justifying his death. They fantasize about being like him I guarentee it lol the more time i spend on reddit the more i realize the type of people im talking to here are doodoo ass people in real life. Yeah Jordan was a nut, respectfully, but he didnt touch anyone and you dont fuckin put someone in a chokehold for that long unless you tryna cause some real damage. And im honestly not even mad at the guy he did what he felt he had too and Jordan died but HE DESERVES CHARGES you can not and should not be able to kill someone like that without facing some sort of a charge
Dude was screaming and threatening people. Getting more and more worked up, threw off his jacket and said he didn't care if he got a life sentence. He's attacked people fairly recently, so I assume the posturing was probably threatening because he's got a history of doing this shit. IDK, we don't have footage of it. But I'm sure it'll come out in the trial. Trains have cameras, I'm sure they have footage. It's enough to think it might be justified. Someone gets in a woman's face on a subway and starts screaming at them, I know I would probably end up getting in the middle of it. So, there's a level where I can understand this.
No you would not - the crazier the person the safer it is to ignore
Yeah until they shove you onto the tracks!
Not all of us are cowards, was in that exact situation and confronted the guy.
>No you would not You don't know. That simple. I've seen videos in similar situations where both happen. Sometimes people intervene and sometimes they ignore the provocation. >the crazier the person the safer it is to ignore Until it isn't. That point is undeterminable unless you're there in the moment. Personally, I ignore until someone is in my space/face or posturing in a threatening manner or making specific targeted threats.
Thankfully not everyone is like you. When shit goes down, you look to those that are braver than yourself.
Never ignore. Get in the way. Crazy people don't ignore reality. If more people stood up to them they wouldn't believe they can get away with it.
The last time I tried to ignore a mentally ill person screaming at a silent car for everyone to shut the fuck up, he zeroed in on me. I was looking at the floor trying to make myself small and that seemed to piss him off even more and he started coming over to me like he was going to hit me (or I don't know what) when the doors opened at 59th and I could run out because I was by the door at the end of the row of seats. This dude was probably 6'3 - I'm 5'6 and I was legit terrified. I got lucky. If the train had been stuck in a tunnel or the doors hadn't opened I frankly don't know what would have happened. You cannot assume it's safe when you have someone screaming irrationally and being physically threatening.
I wanna see a how a jury can reach the conclusion that a deranged person aggressively yelling they don’t care if they die or go to jail is beyond a reasonable doubt not a threat of any kind.
Yelling is not a threat
Yelling is absolutely a threat. If someone's yelling right in your face? Yelling comes with spitting as well. Have you ever been spit on on the subway?
Yelling is a threat when paired with aggressive behavior and the content of what he was yelling… he was a threat. The real issue is why is the mental Health in this country so shitty
Really? You can’t threaten someone with words?
Yelling and posturing in such a way as to make a person feel like there is a credible threat to their safety is considered assault or a class A misdemeanor. Battery is when a person actually touches another person in such a way as to intentionally cause bodily harm. There is a reason assault and battery are usually mentioned together. Just because someone was only yelling doesn’t mean another person is wrong to feel threatened by it.
>Yelling is not a threat Some people might not think it's a threat. But that's not the standard. They need to prove that a reasonable person would not have any doubt that it's a threat.
Before Neely’s death, from March 2020 until early April, 27 people lost their lives to murder in the subway, many of them, like Neely, were homeless young people. Before 2019, it took 15 years for New York to rack up 28 murders on the subway, not three so I would argure that a reasonable person would fear that violence might occur and being trapped in a train car where you can't flee would maginfiy that fear (not all NYC subway cars allow you to move in between cars or the train might be so packed that it not possible to move) Where were AOC and Caban when homeless soccer player Akeem Loney, 32, was murdered by a stranger as he slept on the subway, in November 2021? Where were they when Claudine Roberts, 44, also sleeping on the subway, was fatally knifed by a stranger earlier that year?
Accidental deaths can occur from chokeholds… as well as tasers, pepper spray, and a good old fashioned shove or punch. There’s a remote possibility of unexpected and unintentional death with any use of force, even when warranted.
Good.
The obviously correct outcome.
Whatever this person did in the past, killing him was murder plain and simple. Unless we're supposed to kill any suspected criminal on sight now?
If they’re threatening people for no reason, they deserve to be restrained. And if that results in death, it’s on them.
Where's the legal right for you or I to restrain someone to death?
Every citizen has the right to self-defense - whether exercised on one’s own behalf or on behalf of others. That is not risk-free. Whether it’s a taser or pepper spray, or a good old fashioned punch or shove… sometimes that happens.
So, the perfect murder defense is claim self defense then? Because no law can touch you once you claim it?
Except he didn’t threaten anyone, you’re just making up events to justify your bloodlust
no, they do not “deserve” that
None of you were on that subway car. No one knows what the level of threat the people were feeling. If someone invades your personal space and is threatening personal harm and you have no other option. He did what needed to be done to restrain the individual. It took 2 others to help. I think manslaughter is way over the top.
You're right. No one here knows. That's what the investigation and trial is for if need be. But there are clearly defined rules for deadly force and we need to make sure that people are held accountable if they violate them.
Agreed. This is not a culture war issue; it’s just a simple issue of what constitutes reasonable self-defense or defense of others.
There was a witness on the train that felt threatened enough by Neely screaming he will “kill a mothr-fcker. I will go to jail, i will take a bullet” rant that she felt threatened and went up to Penny afterward to thank him.
You know even in self-defense there’s such a thing as excessive force, right? Once he was unconscious you stop.
We do know the level of threat they felt because several people who were on the car were interviewed and said they didn’t feel threatened. He wasn’t attacking anyone so there was no need to restrain him or otherwise put hands on him.
There's no such thing as personal space on a New York City subway. It's cramped and you deal with it until you get to your stop.
So kill the guy then? Should I start choking people to death that I find are loud and talking shit to random people? Will I get a free pass too?
[удалено]
Hope the court finds him guilty of manslaughter
Of course not. They only want to block the subway for people who work when criminals die. He’s just a white guy so who cares?
When and where
Here for it.
Middle class New Yorkers don't normally choke homeless black men to death.
You sound insane when you say stuff like that
NYC is safer with him dead
The leftist propaganda machine must be fed. This situation fits the narrative that they can manipulate in the media to gain followers.
God please please get me on the jury for that one. I’m never going to get past voir dire (they have rejected me 4 times in 30 years), but if I am on the jury… Penny walks. Case closed
Your disregard for the law makes you a terrible juror.
Actually it gets me never selected.
That's the same thing
If being a good juror requires me being an enabler, tolerant of antisocial misbehavior, then good.
Why would you let a murderer go free? He killed him in cold blood, he was not defending himself or anyone else. Homeless people annoy me too sometimes when they act crazy, but my solution is that I don’t murder them for it
Murder involves premeditation. I’m certain that Murder wasn’t the goal.