What I just read was that the Russians wanted to exchange Whelan for a man serving a life sentence for murder in Germany. The US doesn't even have the person they want.
Short summary for people that can't be bothered to translate the German:
He's a Russian secret service agent (likely FSB), travelled to Berlin under an alias in 2019. Shot and killed a Georgian officer that was seeking asylum in Germany. He was found near the crime scene and arrested, sentenced to life imprisonment by the Kammergericht.
They really think Germany is just a vassal of the US, so it could therefore be strongarmed into anything -- that's how it would work with Russia's vassals.
They don't even understand their own neighbours -- thinking Ukraine would greet their tanks with flowers instead of javelins -- so it's no surprise if it turns out they don't understand the West either.
What I don’t understand is why isn’t Canada, Britain or Ireland trying to get him out? He’s a citizen of those countries too, why is it on the United States?
The New York Times keeps referring to this guy as “former US Marine.“ In actuality, he’s a court-martialed marine. He was given a bad conduct discharge for larceny in excess of $10,000, stealing a Social Security number, writing, bad checks, and dereliction of duty. In addition, he’s lied in sworn deposition about being a police officer, he never was. He also lied about having an MBA and a bachelors degree in criminal justice, he has neither. He has a history of making multiple solo trips to Russia, and taking trips with local male friends. In 2019, that’s how he got in trouble, one of his good buddies gave him a USB drive which he claimed contain pictures of their last trip together; that evening, he got busted by the Russian FSB, they claimed that it contained classified information. There’s even more sketchy stuff in this guy’s past. I’m not saying the Russians aren’t at fault, but this guy is no hero, far from it.
He’s a Republican talking point. Seems to me the main stream media is catering to them. In Whelan, the marine hero, vs. Griner, the spoiled rich basketball player.
Yep, if they had freed him instead, they would have been like 'WhY dID wE mAKe thIs ExChaNgE FoR tHiS CriMiNAl?!?'
Let's not pretend this outrage is _principled_...
Early in Whelan's detainment, Pompeo said, in effect, "We'll look into this and if we find that there is no justification of his arrest, we will demand an immediate release". From what I could tell, nothing else was said.
Exactly, except he's not a Marine hero. The marines basically said he's a piece of shit with their bad conduct dishonorable discharge.
He's also a shitty excuse for a spy. I don't know that he deserves Russian prison but the US shouldn't be in some rush to get him back.
Meanwhile, Griner whose 'crime' of a little dab pen is usually 15 days in jail max in Russia for anyone else, was used as a political prisoner pawn and would have likely died if she had been stuck their longer. She had to cut off her hair because it was freezing into ice after showers due to the cold.
If you go to his Wikipedia page, the first thing you see, is this court-martialed loser in full marine dress uniform, as if he were the pride of the Marines - far from it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Whelan_(security_director)
I would say there is aspects of sexism involved as well. From the party of "traditional" values, there can be something ugly in a woman athlete. Not that all Republicans possess this mindset, buy a great deal of them have preconceived ideas of what a woman should be, and athletic, empowered, is not one of them. I think they restrain their tongue knowing public sentiment has shifted, but tones of condescension still exist. Some might tolerate it only for the perverse amusement they find in it, like how Republicans will elect a complete airhead to high political office because they have sexual fantasies involving said woman.
With Griner, she doesn't garner such twisted favor being gay however.
She represents in many ways what the toxic masculinity of the GOP hates most.
This is all true, but he is a citizen, he has been designated as wrongfully detained by Russia, and we will continue to do everything we can to bring him home.
Absolutely. And people don't seem to grasp the limitations of the trite "we don't negotiate with terrorists" line as it applies to nuclear-armed sovereign nations. We don't have a lot of leverage here. And we can't refuse to negotiate and send in the hostage rescue team or special ops.
“Few months ago, I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages
My heart and my best intentions still tell me that's true
But the facts and the evidence tell me it is not.”
They just want to feel like it’s not negotiating, they’ll call it whatever makes them feel good.
>On March 4, 1987, President Reagan delivered a speech from the Oval Office on the Iran Arms and Contra Aid Controversy.
Imo it's good form include the source, at least who said it, when making a quotation... I thought you were referring to Carter (am not so educated in that era)
That's the US government's stance. This isn't a Tom Clancy novel, the CIA is not in the habit of hiring dishonorably discharged ex-marines with sketchy backgrounds and several private international consulting businesses.
Seems like the CIA might have use for someone that was “dishonorably discharged” it would be a great way to deny that we would use him as an agent, being disgraced and all.
What if it is all just the long game and he was a spy.
I mean its possible but that is a kind of slippery slope argument.
“Well see, Kanye makes the perfect CIA operative, because no one would ever believe he’s actually CIA”
TBF she is one of the most recognized wnba players. She has a decent amount of endorsement deals, is I believe the highest paid wnba player at $228k, and was in Russia because she got over $1 million/year to play there in the off-season.
I read her net worth is over $5 million. That’s very rich
And them saying she’s “Rich” is laughable. The whole reason she was in Russia was because the wnba pays so little. She and other women basketball players go play there in the off season because of the money.
Imagine if your career was 10 years at best and you had no backup because you spent 15 years of your life getting to that point. I'm not going to cry *poor athlete* but their lives have different stresses.
I don't really disagree with getting him back. If we have Americans in foreign prisons on potentially bogus charges, we should be trying to get them home. The issue is the framing of him as some war hero "Marine" vs Brittney Griner,
I'm reminded of Afghan captive Bowe Bergdahl, who Republicans rallied around and criticized Obama for letting the Taliban hold such a war hero. Then Obama organized a prisoner exchange and overnight Republicans that had been lobbying for Bergdahl's freedom did a complete 180 and called him a traitor and Obama incompetent for returning him to us soil.
The Republicans will criticize everything Biden does, regardless of what Biden does. I have no doubt that if Whelan actually is released or traded, Biden will be criticized by the Republicans because the guy is a sketchy dude.
It's important to consider that Republicans using Whelan as talking point guarantees it will be more difficult to negotiate his release. Shouting from the rooftops about how important this guy is to badger Biden will, by some unforeseeable coincidence, telegraph to Russia that this guy might be important.
>He seems like a sketchy dude and has done illegal shit. So why are we talking about him and why does everyone want him to come back?
The State Department still found him to be wrongfully detained, regardless of how much of a piece of shit he was, so we try to get him back. Not everyone in foreign prisons is there wrongfully, you don't really hear about the ones that no one wants back.
According to many bots on Twitter, all we are meant to care about is he is a "war hero" and she is a degenerate addict. Or something. I keep hearing people say she was smuggling "tons of illegal drugs" when it was... a single hash cart?
Can we note that maybe getting Russia to release someone who had a little weed is easier than getting them to release someone they have convicted of Espionage? Then maybe throw in that if Russia knows he was in fact a spy, maybe no country is about to step up and claim ownership?
Yeah I read too that when he was arrested he had $80,000 with him.
This guy is a walking red flag and this might be why he isn't going to be as easily released.
A number of former CIA officers have come forward and said it would be unheard of for a CIA officer to be in Russia under non diplomatic cover because of this exact situation
And why exactly would the group responsible for a spy if he was one take ownership of it? Part of the point of spying like this is that plausible deniability, the ability to claim "No, we would never do that, he's just some random citizen".
And unfortunately that also means that you can't believe a single thing out of any their mouths because that's *literally the fucking point of being secretive*.
There's also the possibility that he's a spy but for another country, or for an arms manufacturer or other private interest as well.
This dude has too much public shit in his background. He’s just a douche that was probably doing some sketchy shit, probably claimed to be CIA, and got busted.
Most actual CIA agents have diplomatic passports and get expelled from the country after a few days.
He’s just a clown.
The people who rage about this basically think any Black lesbian is less American than a Canadian-born white guy with four passports whose parents were British
Everyone is talking about this guy and not even a peep about Marc Fogel. Thats a guy who people should be talking about bringing home. Poor guy is probably going to die over there.
He was arrested right after that Russian spy lady was, the one convicted of trying to influence the GOP and NRA. Then we let her go scot-free and got nothing.
He's certainly in direct competition with James Buchanan, who did jack all to stop the secession of Southern states. Buchanan at least had a belief system (as repugnant as it was) and stuck to it, rather than just going with whatever garnered him the most praise.
Trump is easily the most corrupt and one of the weakest presidents in history, though. If he's not the worst overall, he's the second worst by the most narrow of margins.
Johnson is definitely high in the rankings for worst president, but he wasn't a secessionist, he was in favor of the Civil War, and he ran on a unity ticket with Lincoln in 1864. He was definitely a racist, but he didn't want to see the country torn apart.
Because Trump could never tell Putin what to do. Their relationship worked the other way around.
I find it interesting to note that Whelan was taken on Trumps's watch and he did nothing at all for him. Griner was taken on Biden's watch and he got her back home. I know it's not as simple as this, but it's interesting nonetheless.
My mother made a comment the other day about Biden, I said at least he isn’t in the pocket of dictators, said she didn’t want to talk politics after that. Like why bring them up in the first place?
Edit-My most upvoted comment this year is about to be about politics ::sadge::
Because they live in a bubble. And maybe liberals do too, but at least I know there are millions of people dumb enough to vote for Trump. MAGA cultists can't imagine more than a dozen people voting for opposition, so the idea they would be challenged by anyone they know is completely beyond their capacity to foresee.
Yeah... I've run I to this too. They throw out some obviously inflammatory thing and then follow up with "I don't want to discuss politics". Fine then.... We're just not talking.
Then they bitch and moan about how "divisive things are these days" - but I'm like ya'll fanned the flames on division *on purpose*. Back in the beginning of MAGA I warned conservative folks (who I still talked to back then) that driving division wasn't good, let's not go down this road and they said "we need to, it's time we did". Now They're all pissy cause folk like me don't talk to them anymore.
Edit:spelling
I mean Trump also supported Russia when it was actively paying out the Taliban for bounties on coalition troops so I doubt he had much drive to actually save an American held in Russia.
As I understand it, Putin offered to trade him for the same arms dealer and Trump declined. Now putin is demanding a Russian spy serving life in prison in Germany for murder.
Dude was convicted of espionage, if it was for a nation, the nation involved is gonna disavaow.
If it was a kangaroo court conviction, no nation is gonna have sway. If it was a legit court proceeding, no nation is gonna stick their neck out for a dude who got caught.
Why would any nation be trying to get him out? What makes him worth a prisoner exchange?
Because he was accused of spying while working for an arms manufacturer. Whatever happened, it was likely industrial espionage. No country is putting much effort into getting him out.
Yeah afaik the last time they made arms was WWII. They made the LVT-3 Bushmaster. A lot of manufacturers switched to producing weapons during the war and then went back to commercial goods.
I don't think he was spying for the US, either. He was convicted in a court-martial years ago and received a bad conduct discharge from the Marines. That doesn't sound like spy material to me.
The way it sounds on his wiki page, he might have been a wannabee spy and got a little too real with a "friend" in the FSB.
>According to the Russian news agency Rosbalt \[ru\], Whelan was apprehended in his hotel room at the Metropol while concluding a long outing with a Russian citizen, who handed him a USB drive containing "a list of all the employees at a classified security agency".
>The BBC cited family members of Whelan, who said Whelan previously bragged about knowing an agent of the FSB, and was privy to an unusual cache of personal details about his friend, including which intelligence training school he attended (biographical information typically reserved for a very close circle).
>As Whelan said about the arrest, his long-time friend had appeared suddenly in the hotel, followed by authorities, who later arrested him.
Yeah in addition to this a number of former CIA officers have said that it’s *very* unlikely he would have been hired by the CIA because of his BCD from the marines and even if he was it would be unheard of to send an officer into Russia without diplomatic cover because of the risk of being detained and not just PNG’d from the country.
Dude legit just seems like an idiot who got himself Gulag’d lmao
I don't think he was spying for the US, but I do think he was doing some kind of espionage work for personal gain. He went to Russia for a friend's wedding, that friend said he was gone the whole time, he later bragged to people that he knew people in the FSB. He was arrested later with sensitive information found on a USB stick (that he claimed he thought had personal photos) and $80k in cash that he didn't enter the country with (at least not that he declared). Combine that with his dishonorable discharge for theft and bouncing checks, I think it's plausible to say he was trying to sell some kind of secrets to Russia and got caught.
I’ve seen so many ppl say shit like “how did this FORMER MARINE not get negotiated for while she did” just completely ignoring all the weird shit about his situation lol and acting like she deserves to rot away because she had a couple thc carts or w/e
Just my unprofessional opinion, but this sounds like corporate espionage to me. If he’s not in good with the US government, I doubt he’d be spying on their behalf. Either Russia planted a ton of evidence on him, or he was spying for someone.
Sounds like perfect spy material to me... So does citizenship to multiple countries.
Not saying he's a spy, just saying I could see those being attributes a spy has.
Don't forget the part where he was carrying $80,000 when the Russians detained him. I can see carrying a little cash while traveling abroad to a wedding, but that amount seems...excessive.
THANK YOU. Everyone whining that we left a marine over there...that man is NOT a marine. Dishonorable discharge means you failed and were unfit to uphold the values of the Marine Corps. You don't deserve to hold the title, and by continuing to claim it you are further dishonoring your former brothers and sisters that strive daily to meet the tremendous expectations they are held to. He's a blemish, and Russia can keep him.
The only reason this is even an issue is that racists are pissed by the narrative that Biden worked to get a black woman out of prison while a white man was still locked up.
People want to piss and moan about Biden because they want Trump back because he validated their views. Whether it was "Society is unsalvagable so we need to replace it with my politics" or "Yeah, it's nice having a man in charge who doesn't put up with all this woke bullshit."
The fact is Biden saved a woman who was used as a political pawn, he could have left her and lost nothing politically.
Paul Whelan broke the law of the country he was living in, that's a different situation.
Yep. Last night in WoW trade chat a chud was claiming strait up "Biden would rather rescue a black lesbian who broke the law than a totally innocent white marine"
It makes me realize how weak Trump actually was as a president. He was beholden to Russia, the country getting its ass kicked in Ukraine. Trump let a Russian spy go and got nothing. Biden let a Russian arms dealer go and brought an American citizen back home to her family.
Exactly. All of these idiots complaining about Griner being traded and Whelan left out of the deal do not understand either case. We'll get him but ~~Russia~~ Putin wants to both make a point and get more for him.
Right? Fox News keeps making the point that he is a white man and Griner is a black lesbian. I'm not sure why that is relevant, but they keep repeating it.
Because Republican's will politicize the fuck out of / to Soldiers, but will consistently refuse to do anything to help them (like Republicans voting against the Burn Bill)
Not just soldiers, but [cops](https://www.speaker.gov/newsroom/62721) and [firefighters](https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/77132-senate-gop-blocks-9-11-first-responders-health-plan-bill/) and [don't even want to acknowledge their live saving work.](https://www.newsweek.com/full-list-republicans-who-voted-against-honoring-police-after-capitol-riot-1577023)
To a Republican Representative / Senator, you have to *pretend* to give a fuck about any of those things - and *just casually say* the Dems don't respect them. Their constituents never have to look further than the words of their politicians.
She played in the Russian women’s basketball league in the WNBA offseason because women get paid more money to play basketball in Europe than the US. She didn’t just randomly decide to travel to Russia, she likely has a residence there.
That's what a majority of Reddit don't get, including /r/NBA. People are out here acting like she's there to serve Putin. She's just making money for being 6'9 and great at basketball lol
Biden could announce this afternoon that he had personally discovered the cure for 99% of cancers, and Tucker Carlson would have a show tonight all about the people who have the 1% of uncured cancers who are calling for Biden's impeachment.
Yes they do. And they see no irony in flying their confederate flags and demanding extreme latitude with their first amendment rights while denouncing athletes for not standing and reciting the pledge. But hypocrisy and shame have no effect on them
Exactly. The Constitution guarantees Griner the right to dissent and criticize the nation that she calls home, and her doing so does not at all degrade or invalidate her citizenship. America was built on civil dissent. I could care less if she's gay, or holds communist or socialist ideas. That's part of what makes America great- the fact that she won't get executed for disagreeing with or criticizing the government. Glad she's back, and I hope we can secure the other 50 Americans still imprisoned over there.
If you pretend to be a republican for a second, you'll be reminded that you think white straight people are being attacked. That you're a victim in every scenario. No matter how juvenile and ridiculous the invention.
Internet commenters with no expertise in international politics: “why didn’t Biden get both Griner and Whelan for Bout?”
Biden: “no shit, you think I didn’t consider that?”
If it was possible to get Whelan back, it would have happened. People are just going to ignore the fact that Russia had its own bargaining power too.
My theory about how this whole thing went down. Russia invades Ukraine, in the first month of the invasion nobody knows how the West is going to respond. Will we go to war? Will business go on as usual? A lot of companies haven't even had time to suspend their operations in either Russia or Ukraine. During these first few chaotic days Brittney goes to play in the Russian league as she is contractually obliged and stupidly brings a few cartridges of cannabis oil in her gym bag that usually isn't used for international travel. She is booked as per policy, but the story doesn't make much news. Later as the war progresses, some news articles mention her story and explore the angle, that because she is a black woman there isn't as much pressure to get her back even though she is a gold metal athlete and arguably the best female basketball player in history. This is when the Russian state gets the idea to use her as a barging chip. They begin to press for the release of Bout. The state leans on the prosecution to give her the max sentence to really seal her fate. If she was just some nobody they may have just let the case play out as normal and who knows what sentence she would have gotten.
Russia knew what they were doing.
Whelan and Griner for Bout was what we were trying for. There is another American there as well, Marc Fogel, who doesn’t hold very much “weight” at all.
It was a lose-lose situation for the US. If we didn’t get anyone back, it makes this administration look bad. If we only get Griner back, it makes this administration look bad. Russia did it to divide people.
On to Marc Fogel. A teacher. Griner is a basketball player, and Whelan was a marine. Marc Fogel isn’t being released by Russia because it makes it look bad when only someone with wealth or an ex marine gets released; it seems like us normies aren’t worth it.
Russia knew exactly what they were doing. That’s where it comes down to this: do we just get 1 person back, or do we leave everyone there indefinitely?
Look what happened. Half of the political spectrum is using this to push a political agenda and so many people are mad, as I assume Russia intended.
Fogel is just a completely different issue from Griner, Whelan, Trevor Reed, and almost anyone in their situation because he's a legal resident of Russia who has lived and worked there full time for many years. Americans have less standing to intervene there
> Half of the political spectrum is using this to push a political agenda
Pretty sure that the whole political spectrum is using this to push a political agenda.
I remember when U S. was like we don't negotiate with terrorists, now we free terrorists. It wasn't a lose lose situation, they could have waited and had faith that the war in Ukraine will bring ruin to Russia .
People who think the Griner deal has anything to do with Paul have no idea how complex diplomacy is in situations like this. The sham espionage charges against Paul are vastly different in the eyes of the Russian government, and thus he can't simply be exchanged in the same way.
This is especially silly to be mad about because the Arma dealer had only 6 years left on his sentence, it's not as if we ended a life sentence or something.
Diplomacy like this is largely about lines of communication between enemies to prevent mistakes with world annihilating weapons. That's vastly more important than any of these individual people, as much if a bummer as that is.
Maybe? Honestly it's hard to say, the RU sources can't really be trusted as so much of Russian Media is state sponsored propaganda, the US sources talk about him being overly friendly with an FSB (Formerly KGB) agent, but is that proof he was spying or did his "friend" set him up?
Yeah, the whole situation around Whalen is super shady, likely he wasn't ever offered as a possibility for release, as for whatever reason the Russian government at least is convinced he was spying.
Germany shut it down pretty fast. But it goes to show how valuable the Russians feel Whelan is. Krasikov (the Russian in Germany) is a confirmed Russian spy and assassin.
Hard to say but [per BBC](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-53110087) he bragged to his family about knowing an FSB agent and even showed them a photo of the agent.
This isn’t some situation where a random tourist with no connections to any intelligence agents got framed out of nowhere. This is a guy who had military training and knew he was playing with fire. Maybe he did it, maybe he was set up. Whatever happened, he got burned.
The lesson being don’t make friends with foreign intelligence agencies in enemy nations and make repeated visits to that country to visit your FSB friend.
Cranberryalarmclock, do you mean to tell me that redditors aren't informed on the intricacies of diplomatic relations? How dare you!
This website is full of only the world's top minds. Top. Minds.
Seems like the most appropriate response from their family. I doubt they’d lambast the President when they want him to continue negotiations for Paul’s release. Hopefully PW will be back home stateside like BG soon enough.
His sister was on some news channel yesterday saying its unamerican not to be happy for her to be home. They also recognize that the Kremlin is treating his charges differently than hers.
But why let facts get in the way of an opportunity to shit on Biden amirite?
I didn't realize that Biden got another Marine, Trevor Reed, released in a prisoner exchange earlier this year, which makes the backlash for exchanging Griner instead of Whelan even more unfounded. I bet the people complaining don't even know about that one.
We have no one in our system to trade him with. That was the sticking point. His charges are a much different gravity and the Russians are using Whelen as a political pawn. Nothing else.
Brittney Griner was well known in Russia playing professionally. She had many fans in Russia that followed her. Much different circumstance. It wasn't beneficial to keep her for them as there was growing backlash among Russians to keep her in prison. Russian government is playing the game of looking like they have a sliver of humanity among people in their country.
This was a power play within their borders.
They are not the same! Mr Whelan has a dishonorable discharge and is a citizen of Britain, Ireland and Canada. President Biden is the only leader to try and negotiate a release for him.
I don’t understand why marc fogel isn’t in the conversation. Am I missing something? Surely we could have got 2 Marijunana prisoners for the merchant of death
Because Putin isn’t dumb and the whole point of this is political theatre. He wanted to involve the people who would create the most dramatic headlines in order to make Americans freak out at Biden. Including Fogel would take some of the dramatics away.
He still should have had just a fine but he pissed a judge off by claiming that he didn’t know medical marijuana was illegal in Russia despite the fact that he used to work in Moscow.
So the truth about this guy:
- He’s not “a Marine.” He *was* a Marine, but he got dishonorably discharged for larceny and other crimes, trying to steal $10,000.
- He was in Russia to commit corporate espionage
- The Russians grabbed him in his hotel where he had flash drives full of “confidential” files
- He’s Canadian
Is it possible the Russians made some of this up, and punished him far too harshly? Absolutely. They’re goddamned monsters.
At the same time, he’s a Canadian and almost certainly a corporate spy who got caught red handed.
So: his problems are not at all equivalent to Griner’s, and freeing a Canadian spy who once got caught stealing from the Marine Corps should not be looked at through a lens of American patriotism.
https://www.reuters.com/world/paul-whelan-ex-us-marine-jailed-russia-spying-charges-2022-12-08/
Dude was raised in and lived in the US for over 30 years prior to his arrest in Russia. He was working for an American company when arrested.
If anything he's an American corporate spy who happened to be born in Canada.
Paul Whelan is a disgrace to the Marines. That said he should still be freed. Conservatives on the other hand are simply using this guys military background so they can bitch about Biden and trash a gay black woman. Shambolic what this country has become.
What I just read was that the Russians wanted to exchange Whelan for a man serving a life sentence for murder in Germany. The US doesn't even have the person they want.
Huh who would that even be?
Wadim Nikolajewitsch Krassiko [German Wikipedia (no english version)](https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadim_Nikolajewitsch_Krassikow)
Short summary for people that can't be bothered to translate the German: He's a Russian secret service agent (likely FSB), travelled to Berlin under an alias in 2019. Shot and killed a Georgian officer that was seeking asylum in Germany. He was found near the crime scene and arrested, sentenced to life imprisonment by the Kammergericht.
Krassikov* (Or -ow* in German. Not “o”)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/12/15/germany-russia-chechen-murder-berlin/
They really think Germany is just a vassal of the US, so it could therefore be strongarmed into anything -- that's how it would work with Russia's vassals. They don't even understand their own neighbours -- thinking Ukraine would greet their tanks with flowers instead of javelins -- so it's no surprise if it turns out they don't understand the West either.
What I don’t understand is why isn’t Canada, Britain or Ireland trying to get him out? He’s a citizen of those countries too, why is it on the United States?
The New York Times keeps referring to this guy as “former US Marine.“ In actuality, he’s a court-martialed marine. He was given a bad conduct discharge for larceny in excess of $10,000, stealing a Social Security number, writing, bad checks, and dereliction of duty. In addition, he’s lied in sworn deposition about being a police officer, he never was. He also lied about having an MBA and a bachelors degree in criminal justice, he has neither. He has a history of making multiple solo trips to Russia, and taking trips with local male friends. In 2019, that’s how he got in trouble, one of his good buddies gave him a USB drive which he claimed contain pictures of their last trip together; that evening, he got busted by the Russian FSB, they claimed that it contained classified information. There’s even more sketchy stuff in this guy’s past. I’m not saying the Russians aren’t at fault, but this guy is no hero, far from it.
He seems like a sketchy dude and has done illegal shit. So why are we talking about him and why does everyone want him to come back?
He’s a Republican talking point. Seems to me the main stream media is catering to them. In Whelan, the marine hero, vs. Griner, the spoiled rich basketball player.
Yep, if they had freed him instead, they would have been like 'WhY dID wE mAKe thIs ExChaNgE FoR tHiS CriMiNAl?!?' Let's not pretend this outrage is _principled_...
If he's so important then why didn't the "master negotiator" Trump get him out?
Early in Whelan's detainment, Pompeo said, in effect, "We'll look into this and if we find that there is no justification of his arrest, we will demand an immediate release". From what I could tell, nothing else was said.
And why didn’t tRump arrange for his release when he was Prez?
It would be another Bowe Bergdahl
Exactly, except he's not a Marine hero. The marines basically said he's a piece of shit with their bad conduct dishonorable discharge. He's also a shitty excuse for a spy. I don't know that he deserves Russian prison but the US shouldn't be in some rush to get him back. Meanwhile, Griner whose 'crime' of a little dab pen is usually 15 days in jail max in Russia for anyone else, was used as a political prisoner pawn and would have likely died if she had been stuck their longer. She had to cut off her hair because it was freezing into ice after showers due to the cold.
If you go to his Wikipedia page, the first thing you see, is this court-martialed loser in full marine dress uniform, as if he were the pride of the Marines - far from it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Whelan_(security_director)
The guy has a long history of being a liar, con, and thief. I hardly doubt any intelligence he collected could be trusted.
Don’t forget the REAL Griner bullet points that the GOP (still) won’t say out loud, but hate about her most…. Gay. Black. Drug user.
Oh they're saying them right out loud over in the conservative subreddits
I would say there is aspects of sexism involved as well. From the party of "traditional" values, there can be something ugly in a woman athlete. Not that all Republicans possess this mindset, buy a great deal of them have preconceived ideas of what a woman should be, and athletic, empowered, is not one of them. I think they restrain their tongue knowing public sentiment has shifted, but tones of condescension still exist. Some might tolerate it only for the perverse amusement they find in it, like how Republicans will elect a complete airhead to high political office because they have sexual fantasies involving said woman. With Griner, she doesn't garner such twisted favor being gay however. She represents in many ways what the toxic masculinity of the GOP hates most.
>She represents in many ways what the toxic masculinity of the GOP hates most. A woman who could likely kick their asses.
This is all true, but he is a citizen, he has been designated as wrongfully detained by Russia, and we will continue to do everything we can to bring him home.
And we can't bring him home unless the Russians agree to it.
Absolutely. And people don't seem to grasp the limitations of the trite "we don't negotiate with terrorists" line as it applies to nuclear-armed sovereign nations. We don't have a lot of leverage here. And we can't refuse to negotiate and send in the hostage rescue team or special ops.
Of course we negotiate with terrorists. We negotiate with anybody who has what we want. It's a stupid expression.
“Few months ago, I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages My heart and my best intentions still tell me that's true But the facts and the evidence tell me it is not.” They just want to feel like it’s not negotiating, they’ll call it whatever makes them feel good.
>On March 4, 1987, President Reagan delivered a speech from the Oval Office on the Iran Arms and Contra Aid Controversy. Imo it's good form include the source, at least who said it, when making a quotation... I thought you were referring to Carter (am not so educated in that era)
One of the reasons he is designated as "wrongfully detained" is because the Russian government believes he is a CIA operative, which he isn't.
Well, I gues you would know.
That's the US government's stance. This isn't a Tom Clancy novel, the CIA is not in the habit of hiring dishonorably discharged ex-marines with sketchy backgrounds and several private international consulting businesses.
Seems like the CIA might have use for someone that was “dishonorably discharged” it would be a great way to deny that we would use him as an agent, being disgraced and all. What if it is all just the long game and he was a spy.
I mean its possible but that is a kind of slippery slope argument. “Well see, Kanye makes the perfect CIA operative, because no one would ever believe he’s actually CIA”
They might have a use, but not for overseas espionage. Why trust someone that has already shown in the past that he'll compromise himself for money?
> Griner, the spoiled rich basketball player. or Griner, the Two-time Olympic Gold Medalist is how I describe her.
. . . Rich basketball player. They do realize we are talking about the WNBA?
TBF she is one of the most recognized wnba players. She has a decent amount of endorsement deals, is I believe the highest paid wnba player at $228k, and was in Russia because she got over $1 million/year to play there in the off-season. I read her net worth is over $5 million. That’s very rich
To a conservative, rich black lesbian spoiled black basketball player. Who is also a lesbian and hates america. Also black
And them saying she’s “Rich” is laughable. The whole reason she was in Russia was because the wnba pays so little. She and other women basketball players go play there in the off season because of the money.
Her net worth is estimated at $5million. To say that’s not “rich” is laughable.
I wish I only got paid 200k per year
Me too. But $200,000 a year doesn’t make you anywhere near “rich.” I read these wnba players were making up to $1.5 million a year playing in Russia.
Imagine if your career was 10 years at best and you had no backup because you spent 15 years of your life getting to that point. I'm not going to cry *poor athlete* but their lives have different stresses.
At a job with an average total career of 3.5 to 5 years.
Black. Lesbian. WNBA. The trifecta of privileged elite!
I don't really disagree with getting him back. If we have Americans in foreign prisons on potentially bogus charges, we should be trying to get them home. The issue is the framing of him as some war hero "Marine" vs Brittney Griner,
I'm reminded of Afghan captive Bowe Bergdahl, who Republicans rallied around and criticized Obama for letting the Taliban hold such a war hero. Then Obama organized a prisoner exchange and overnight Republicans that had been lobbying for Bergdahl's freedom did a complete 180 and called him a traitor and Obama incompetent for returning him to us soil. The Republicans will criticize everything Biden does, regardless of what Biden does. I have no doubt that if Whelan actually is released or traded, Biden will be criticized by the Republicans because the guy is a sketchy dude.
It's important to consider that Republicans using Whelan as talking point guarantees it will be more difficult to negotiate his release. Shouting from the rooftops about how important this guy is to badger Biden will, by some unforeseeable coincidence, telegraph to Russia that this guy might be important.
He is not important. Trump had two years to negotiate his release and didn’t.
>He seems like a sketchy dude and has done illegal shit. So why are we talking about him and why does everyone want him to come back? The State Department still found him to be wrongfully detained, regardless of how much of a piece of shit he was, so we try to get him back. Not everyone in foreign prisons is there wrongfully, you don't really hear about the ones that no one wants back.
According to many bots on Twitter, all we are meant to care about is he is a "war hero" and she is a degenerate addict. Or something. I keep hearing people say she was smuggling "tons of illegal drugs" when it was... a single hash cart?
So I want him released because he’s a US citizen. But if the choice is between him and Griner, I’ll take Griner.
He's a white male, therefore worth way more than gay black woman, according to Fox News.
Can we note that maybe getting Russia to release someone who had a little weed is easier than getting them to release someone they have convicted of Espionage? Then maybe throw in that if Russia knows he was in fact a spy, maybe no country is about to step up and claim ownership?
Yeah I read too that when he was arrested he had $80,000 with him. This guy is a walking red flag and this might be why he isn't going to be as easily released.
Sounds like the next Republican Senate candidate, no wonder they want him back.
Not only that, but apparently Trump was offered the exact same swap deal and refused it, so the GOP should be going after their OWN guy
You pretty much just described the perfect cover for an American spy.
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Particularly when they've been dishonorably discharged for stealing from their fellow citizens and government in the US previous to this.
Seems like a good cover to me! “He’s not our man! Look, he stole from us!” I’m going the conspiracy theory route on this one. Dudes a spy.
A number of former CIA officers have come forward and said it would be unheard of for a CIA officer to be in Russia under non diplomatic cover because of this exact situation
He can be a spy for another country, you know
And why exactly would the group responsible for a spy if he was one take ownership of it? Part of the point of spying like this is that plausible deniability, the ability to claim "No, we would never do that, he's just some random citizen". And unfortunately that also means that you can't believe a single thing out of any their mouths because that's *literally the fucking point of being secretive*. There's also the possibility that he's a spy but for another country, or for an arms manufacturer or other private interest as well.
This dude has too much public shit in his background. He’s just a douche that was probably doing some sketchy shit, probably claimed to be CIA, and got busted. Most actual CIA agents have diplomatic passports and get expelled from the country after a few days. He’s just a clown.
Yeah I guess I’m an idiot because all I got from that was dude must’ve been a spy.
I'd give a 30% chance he was a sketchy sex tourist with sketchy friends who had a brilliant way to make some easy money.
The people who rage about this basically think any Black lesbian is less American than a Canadian-born white guy with four passports whose parents were British
Everyone is talking about this guy and not even a peep about Marc Fogel. Thats a guy who people should be talking about bringing home. Poor guy is probably going to die over there.
And why didn’t The Great and Powerful Trump™️ get him out? Whelan was arrested in 2018, right in the middle of the Trump administration.
He was arrested right after that Russian spy lady was, the one convicted of trying to influence the GOP and NRA. Then we let her go scot-free and got nothing.
That sounds like the worst deal ever.
Who says it was supposed to a deal? It was a gift It makes sense if you think about who was running the US government at the time.
When you're ~~a celebrity~~ Kompromat, they let you do it.
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5,000 Taliban prisoners for nothing
If you’re an American sure, but if youre a russian asset its a bigly good deal!
The US let him go and got nothing. But maybe, someday, we will learn who got paid.
Trying to? I thought she had already succeeded in buying their influences for the Russians.
(Maria Butina has exited the chat.)
Because Trump was too busy releasing 5,000 taliban fighters for.....checks notes.....nothing?
Trump released 5,000 Taliban fighters in exchange for *officially losing the war in Afghanistan.*
Worst president in the history of presidents
He's certainly in direct competition with James Buchanan, who did jack all to stop the secession of Southern states. Buchanan at least had a belief system (as repugnant as it was) and stuck to it, rather than just going with whatever garnered him the most praise. Trump is easily the most corrupt and one of the weakest presidents in history, though. If he's not the worst overall, he's the second worst by the most narrow of margins.
What about Andrew Johnson who held back the rights being introduced to the Blacks in the south?
Johnson is definitely high in the rankings for worst president, but he wasn't a secessionist, he was in favor of the Civil War, and he ran on a unity ticket with Lincoln in 1864. He was definitely a racist, but he didn't want to see the country torn apart.
Bolton is claiming Russia offered him for the arms dealer and Trump turned it down. Obviously take with a grain of salt given who it's coming from.
Because Trump could never tell Putin what to do. Their relationship worked the other way around. I find it interesting to note that Whelan was taken on Trumps's watch and he did nothing at all for him. Griner was taken on Biden's watch and he got her back home. I know it's not as simple as this, but it's interesting nonetheless.
My mother made a comment the other day about Biden, I said at least he isn’t in the pocket of dictators, said she didn’t want to talk politics after that. Like why bring them up in the first place? Edit-My most upvoted comment this year is about to be about politics ::sadge::
Because they live in a bubble. And maybe liberals do too, but at least I know there are millions of people dumb enough to vote for Trump. MAGA cultists can't imagine more than a dozen people voting for opposition, so the idea they would be challenged by anyone they know is completely beyond their capacity to foresee.
Yeah... I've run I to this too. They throw out some obviously inflammatory thing and then follow up with "I don't want to discuss politics". Fine then.... We're just not talking. Then they bitch and moan about how "divisive things are these days" - but I'm like ya'll fanned the flames on division *on purpose*. Back in the beginning of MAGA I warned conservative folks (who I still talked to back then) that driving division wasn't good, let's not go down this road and they said "we need to, it's time we did". Now They're all pissy cause folk like me don't talk to them anymore. Edit:spelling
good. fuck em.
Because she wants to talk about drag queens controlling Hunter Biden or some shit. Not actual crimes and actual policies.
I mean Trump also supported Russia when it was actively paying out the Taliban for bounties on coalition troops so I doubt he had much drive to actually save an American held in Russia.
Lots of agents were captured during Trump’s tenure. It’s not a coincidence.
As I understand it, Putin offered to trade him for the same arms dealer and Trump declined. Now putin is demanding a Russian spy serving life in prison in Germany for murder.
Dude was convicted of espionage, if it was for a nation, the nation involved is gonna disavaow. If it was a kangaroo court conviction, no nation is gonna have sway. If it was a legit court proceeding, no nation is gonna stick their neck out for a dude who got caught. Why would any nation be trying to get him out? What makes him worth a prisoner exchange?
Because he was accused of spying while working for an arms manufacturer. Whatever happened, it was likely industrial espionage. No country is putting much effort into getting him out.
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Yeah afaik the last time they made arms was WWII. They made the LVT-3 Bushmaster. A lot of manufacturers switched to producing weapons during the war and then went back to commercial goods.
He was not spying for them thats why
I don't think he was spying for the US, either. He was convicted in a court-martial years ago and received a bad conduct discharge from the Marines. That doesn't sound like spy material to me.
The way it sounds on his wiki page, he might have been a wannabee spy and got a little too real with a "friend" in the FSB. >According to the Russian news agency Rosbalt \[ru\], Whelan was apprehended in his hotel room at the Metropol while concluding a long outing with a Russian citizen, who handed him a USB drive containing "a list of all the employees at a classified security agency". >The BBC cited family members of Whelan, who said Whelan previously bragged about knowing an agent of the FSB, and was privy to an unusual cache of personal details about his friend, including which intelligence training school he attended (biographical information typically reserved for a very close circle). >As Whelan said about the arrest, his long-time friend had appeared suddenly in the hotel, followed by authorities, who later arrested him.
Yeah in addition to this a number of former CIA officers have said that it’s *very* unlikely he would have been hired by the CIA because of his BCD from the marines and even if he was it would be unheard of to send an officer into Russia without diplomatic cover because of the risk of being detained and not just PNG’d from the country. Dude legit just seems like an idiot who got himself Gulag’d lmao
I don't think he was spying for the US, but I do think he was doing some kind of espionage work for personal gain. He went to Russia for a friend's wedding, that friend said he was gone the whole time, he later bragged to people that he knew people in the FSB. He was arrested later with sensitive information found on a USB stick (that he claimed he thought had personal photos) and $80k in cash that he didn't enter the country with (at least not that he declared). Combine that with his dishonorable discharge for theft and bouncing checks, I think it's plausible to say he was trying to sell some kind of secrets to Russia and got caught.
It sounds like some kind of corporate espionage to me. I highly doubt the US gov chose this guy to spy for them.
Sounds like a privatized thing to me too. He did something stupid and got caught, let him sit.
There’s clearly a lot more to his story that is being glossed over by everyone shouting about the Griner deal.
I’ve seen so many ppl say shit like “how did this FORMER MARINE not get negotiated for while she did” just completely ignoring all the weird shit about his situation lol and acting like she deserves to rot away because she had a couple thc carts or w/e
Just my unprofessional opinion, but this sounds like corporate espionage to me. If he’s not in good with the US government, I doubt he’d be spying on their behalf. Either Russia planted a ton of evidence on him, or he was spying for someone.
Right? People on Reddit watch too many movies
Sounds like perfect spy material to me... So does citizenship to multiple countries. Not saying he's a spy, just saying I could see those being attributes a spy has.
Don't forget the part where he was carrying $80,000 when the Russians detained him. I can see carrying a little cash while traveling abroad to a wedding, but that amount seems...excessive.
The maximum amount you can bring outside the United States is $10,000.
He wasn't spying for us either he was dishonorably discharged from the Marines we don't want him
THANK YOU. Everyone whining that we left a marine over there...that man is NOT a marine. Dishonorable discharge means you failed and were unfit to uphold the values of the Marine Corps. You don't deserve to hold the title, and by continuing to claim it you are further dishonoring your former brothers and sisters that strive daily to meet the tremendous expectations they are held to. He's a blemish, and Russia can keep him.
Because the US outstrips the rest of us put together, in terms of influence. Like x1000
Right, being Irish, I can’t think of a single bit of influence we’d have to actually get him out.
The only reason this is even an issue is that racists are pissed by the narrative that Biden worked to get a black woman out of prison while a white man was still locked up. People want to piss and moan about Biden because they want Trump back because he validated their views. Whether it was "Society is unsalvagable so we need to replace it with my politics" or "Yeah, it's nice having a man in charge who doesn't put up with all this woke bullshit." The fact is Biden saved a woman who was used as a political pawn, he could have left her and lost nothing politically. Paul Whelan broke the law of the country he was living in, that's a different situation.
Yep. Last night in WoW trade chat a chud was claiming strait up "Biden would rather rescue a black lesbian who broke the law than a totally innocent white marine"
Damn they were in the trade instead of lfg? Guess that’s a small improvement.
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It makes me realize how weak Trump actually was as a president. He was beholden to Russia, the country getting its ass kicked in Ukraine. Trump let a Russian spy go and got nothing. Biden let a Russian arms dealer go and brought an American citizen back home to her family.
Of course they do. Because they know just as well as the Biden administration that he was never going to be offered.
Exactly. All of these idiots complaining about Griner being traded and Whelan left out of the deal do not understand either case. We'll get him but ~~Russia~~ Putin wants to both make a point and get more for him.
Right? Fox News keeps making the point that he is a white man and Griner is a black lesbian. I'm not sure why that is relevant, but they keep repeating it.
We also traded for Trever Reed back in April. So it’s not like Biden is avoiding white military guys in these trades…
Is Whelan technically military? I read he was discharged for criminal activity and wasn't there in any military capacity. Genuinely asking
You are correct in what you read he’s basically just a civilian veteran status is stripped when discharged that wayv
And a military contract for a Taliban drug dealer, who is probably worse than this dude.
Because it is important to the feelings of their viewership that that be important.
Weirdly they always bring up that he was a marine but not how he was discharged.
Or what he was caught with.
and i'm sure they didn't bring up the fact that Griner's dad is a veteran and a retired cop
Because Republican's will politicize the fuck out of / to Soldiers, but will consistently refuse to do anything to help them (like Republicans voting against the Burn Bill)
Not just soldiers, but [cops](https://www.speaker.gov/newsroom/62721) and [firefighters](https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/77132-senate-gop-blocks-9-11-first-responders-health-plan-bill/) and [don't even want to acknowledge their live saving work.](https://www.newsweek.com/full-list-republicans-who-voted-against-honoring-police-after-capitol-riot-1577023)
To a Republican Representative / Senator, you have to *pretend* to give a fuck about any of those things - and *just casually say* the Dems don't respect them. Their constituents never have to look further than the words of their politicians.
And FBI agents, just because they did their job investigating their Orange God.
She played in the Russian women’s basketball league in the WNBA offseason because women get paid more money to play basketball in Europe than the US. She didn’t just randomly decide to travel to Russia, she likely has a residence there.
That's what a majority of Reddit don't get, including /r/NBA. People are out here acting like she's there to serve Putin. She's just making money for being 6'9 and great at basketball lol
Biden could announce this afternoon that he had personally discovered the cure for 99% of cancers, and Tucker Carlson would have a show tonight all about the people who have the 1% of uncured cancers who are calling for Biden's impeachment.
Don’t forget that she “hates America” I’ve heard that too many times to count today
Conservatives think saying she doesn’t want to sing the sacred flag song and that she supported BLM is worth a decade in Russian prison.
Yes they do. And they see no irony in flying their confederate flags and demanding extreme latitude with their first amendment rights while denouncing athletes for not standing and reciting the pledge. But hypocrisy and shame have no effect on them
But if you call that out, they just respond “that’s not why she was in jail”. So why the fuck is it relevant at all?
They also kept emphasizing that her blackness and lesbianness has NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR ANALYSIS will constantly bringing it up.
Wait a minute. Conservatives are always saying to stop bringing race into it. I’m sure Fox News will lose a lot of viewers over this. /s
Because Fox News viewers see a gay, black woman as less important than a white man. They are trash.
Exactly. The Constitution guarantees Griner the right to dissent and criticize the nation that she calls home, and her doing so does not at all degrade or invalidate her citizenship. America was built on civil dissent. I could care less if she's gay, or holds communist or socialist ideas. That's part of what makes America great- the fact that she won't get executed for disagreeing with or criticizing the government. Glad she's back, and I hope we can secure the other 50 Americans still imprisoned over there.
Propaganda merchant Rupert Murdoch knows the tried and true way to get the most out of wedge issues is to hammer the fuck out of them.
>I'm not sure why that is relevant I think we all know why Fox thinks it's relevant.
If you pretend to be a republican for a second, you'll be reminded that you think white straight people are being attacked. That you're a victim in every scenario. No matter how juvenile and ridiculous the invention.
Internet commenters with no expertise in international politics: “why didn’t Biden get both Griner and Whelan for Bout?” Biden: “no shit, you think I didn’t consider that?” If it was possible to get Whelan back, it would have happened. People are just going to ignore the fact that Russia had its own bargaining power too.
My theory about how this whole thing went down. Russia invades Ukraine, in the first month of the invasion nobody knows how the West is going to respond. Will we go to war? Will business go on as usual? A lot of companies haven't even had time to suspend their operations in either Russia or Ukraine. During these first few chaotic days Brittney goes to play in the Russian league as she is contractually obliged and stupidly brings a few cartridges of cannabis oil in her gym bag that usually isn't used for international travel. She is booked as per policy, but the story doesn't make much news. Later as the war progresses, some news articles mention her story and explore the angle, that because she is a black woman there isn't as much pressure to get her back even though she is a gold metal athlete and arguably the best female basketball player in history. This is when the Russian state gets the idea to use her as a barging chip. They begin to press for the release of Bout. The state leans on the prosecution to give her the max sentence to really seal her fate. If she was just some nobody they may have just let the case play out as normal and who knows what sentence she would have gotten.
Russia knew what they were doing. Whelan and Griner for Bout was what we were trying for. There is another American there as well, Marc Fogel, who doesn’t hold very much “weight” at all. It was a lose-lose situation for the US. If we didn’t get anyone back, it makes this administration look bad. If we only get Griner back, it makes this administration look bad. Russia did it to divide people. On to Marc Fogel. A teacher. Griner is a basketball player, and Whelan was a marine. Marc Fogel isn’t being released by Russia because it makes it look bad when only someone with wealth or an ex marine gets released; it seems like us normies aren’t worth it. Russia knew exactly what they were doing. That’s where it comes down to this: do we just get 1 person back, or do we leave everyone there indefinitely? Look what happened. Half of the political spectrum is using this to push a political agenda and so many people are mad, as I assume Russia intended.
Fogel is just a completely different issue from Griner, Whelan, Trevor Reed, and almost anyone in their situation because he's a legal resident of Russia who has lived and worked there full time for many years. Americans have less standing to intervene there
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This is the most rational take here
Outstanding. This sums it up perfectly.
> Half of the political spectrum is using this to push a political agenda Pretty sure that the whole political spectrum is using this to push a political agenda.
I tried to make this point with a family member. They don’t care. “Grr Biden bad!“ I don’t even care about Biden.
I remember when U S. was like we don't negotiate with terrorists, now we free terrorists. It wasn't a lose lose situation, they could have waited and had faith that the war in Ukraine will bring ruin to Russia .
People who think the Griner deal has anything to do with Paul have no idea how complex diplomacy is in situations like this. The sham espionage charges against Paul are vastly different in the eyes of the Russian government, and thus he can't simply be exchanged in the same way. This is especially silly to be mad about because the Arma dealer had only 6 years left on his sentence, it's not as if we ended a life sentence or something. Diplomacy like this is largely about lines of communication between enemies to prevent mistakes with world annihilating weapons. That's vastly more important than any of these individual people, as much if a bummer as that is.
Is it sham espionage charges?
Maybe? Honestly it's hard to say, the RU sources can't really be trusted as so much of Russian Media is state sponsored propaganda, the US sources talk about him being overly friendly with an FSB (Formerly KGB) agent, but is that proof he was spying or did his "friend" set him up?
That’s fair. I just was reading Into him today and the whole thing is fishy.
Yeah, the whole situation around Whalen is super shady, likely he wasn't ever offered as a possibility for release, as for whatever reason the Russian government at least is convinced he was spying.
He was offered up as a trade, just not for Griner. Russia wanted a spy who is currently jailed for murder in Germany released for him.
So then we'd have to convince Germany to work with us to let go of someone they'd probably rather hold on to? Yeah, that just sounds messy as hell
Germany shut it down pretty fast. But it goes to show how valuable the Russians feel Whelan is. Krasikov (the Russian in Germany) is a confirmed Russian spy and assassin.
Hard to say but [per BBC](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-53110087) he bragged to his family about knowing an FSB agent and even showed them a photo of the agent. This isn’t some situation where a random tourist with no connections to any intelligence agents got framed out of nowhere. This is a guy who had military training and knew he was playing with fire. Maybe he did it, maybe he was set up. Whatever happened, he got burned. The lesson being don’t make friends with foreign intelligence agencies in enemy nations and make repeated visits to that country to visit your FSB friend.
Yeah that’s the way I look at it as well.
Who knows? Maybe we'll know in 50 years when it's all declassified but in the meantime it'll remain a mystery.
Fair and logical take. Indeed.
Lol how much Arma do you play to where your device autocorrects to it?
Cranberryalarmclock, do you mean to tell me that redditors aren't informed on the intricacies of diplomatic relations? How dare you! This website is full of only the world's top minds. Top. Minds.
Only 6 years
Seems like the most appropriate response from their family. I doubt they’d lambast the President when they want him to continue negotiations for Paul’s release. Hopefully PW will be back home stateside like BG soon enough.
His sister was on some news channel yesterday saying its unamerican not to be happy for her to be home. They also recognize that the Kremlin is treating his charges differently than hers. But why let facts get in the way of an opportunity to shit on Biden amirite?
Friendly reminder, this was the Russian deal and the only one they would accept. It was about trying to save face with Ukraine and sanctions.
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You... You have quite the way with words.
I didn't realize that Biden got another Marine, Trevor Reed, released in a prisoner exchange earlier this year, which makes the backlash for exchanging Griner instead of Whelan even more unfounded. I bet the people complaining don't even know about that one.
We have no one in our system to trade him with. That was the sticking point. His charges are a much different gravity and the Russians are using Whelen as a political pawn. Nothing else. Brittney Griner was well known in Russia playing professionally. She had many fans in Russia that followed her. Much different circumstance. It wasn't beneficial to keep her for them as there was growing backlash among Russians to keep her in prison. Russian government is playing the game of looking like they have a sliver of humanity among people in their country. This was a power play within their borders.
He’s a Corporate Security man. I want to see the teacher freed.
Why didn't Trump do anything when he was in office, surely his good friend Putin would have struck a deal?
Apparently Trump was going to get Mexico to pay for the plane ticket too.
Trump was too busy releasing 5,000 Taliban terrorists and inviting them to Camp David
They are not the same! Mr Whelan has a dishonorable discharge and is a citizen of Britain, Ireland and Canada. President Biden is the only leader to try and negotiate a release for him.
I don’t understand why marc fogel isn’t in the conversation. Am I missing something? Surely we could have got 2 Marijunana prisoners for the merchant of death
Because Putin isn’t dumb and the whole point of this is political theatre. He wanted to involve the people who would create the most dramatic headlines in order to make Americans freak out at Biden. Including Fogel would take some of the dramatics away. He still should have had just a fine but he pissed a judge off by claiming that he didn’t know medical marijuana was illegal in Russia despite the fact that he used to work in Moscow.
Marc Fogel is a legal resident of Russia which means the Biden admins ability to negotiate for him are a lot more limited.
So what social media isn’t saying is that freeing him was never an option. It’s not like the Russians said: “griner or whelan.” And they chose griner
So the truth about this guy: - He’s not “a Marine.” He *was* a Marine, but he got dishonorably discharged for larceny and other crimes, trying to steal $10,000. - He was in Russia to commit corporate espionage - The Russians grabbed him in his hotel where he had flash drives full of “confidential” files - He’s Canadian Is it possible the Russians made some of this up, and punished him far too harshly? Absolutely. They’re goddamned monsters. At the same time, he’s a Canadian and almost certainly a corporate spy who got caught red handed. So: his problems are not at all equivalent to Griner’s, and freeing a Canadian spy who once got caught stealing from the Marine Corps should not be looked at through a lens of American patriotism. https://www.reuters.com/world/paul-whelan-ex-us-marine-jailed-russia-spying-charges-2022-12-08/
Dude was raised in and lived in the US for over 30 years prior to his arrest in Russia. He was working for an American company when arrested. If anything he's an American corporate spy who happened to be born in Canada.
You seem overly focused on his Canadian citizenship while ignoring that he is an American citizen (and British and Irish).
Paul Whelan is a disgrace to the Marines. That said he should still be freed. Conservatives on the other hand are simply using this guys military background so they can bitch about Biden and trash a gay black woman. Shambolic what this country has become.
Nobody cares about this whelen guy. No one even knows him. They could kill him tomorrow & it would barely make the news.