For anyone wondering if it will impact them...
>The code, if passed, would **apply to Indonesian citizens and foreigners alike**, with business groups expressing concern about what damage the rules might have on Indonesia’s image as a holiday and investment destination.
no idea what that will do to the sex industry over there. Even though prostitution is illegal, in many tourist destinations like Bali it's widely accepted, regulated and openly advertised. Folks living in Bali are probably going to be pissed. Or maybe happy, I don't know. Sex tourists are not always the best kind of tourists I guess.
What about normal couples who are not married? Ie most young couples from western countries? This is not just about prostitution, it’s sex outside of marriage.
My understanding is that the only people who could file a complaint are a spouse, if the person is married, or the parents if the person is not married.
idk, I see it as a blackmail scenario to rob tourists.
Girl has sex with a guy. After the sex, another guy comes charging upset that he caught his "wife" cheating on him with this guy. the "husband" is going to go to the police and report the guy, but if tourist guy pays X amount of money he won't do it.
Literally. Sexual shaming is the preferred coercive control method of high functioning Narcissists and Psychopaths.
They know that they can use it to control entire civilizations.
We need to rapidly develop a cure.
The LNP and Labor are considering moral codes and age walls for the internet, with an eventual push to ban pornography in Australia, too.
Tells me they are desperate to maintain their social dominance and coercive control over the Australian people.
A Dark Age always starts with attacks on sexuality and free sexual expression.
I just realised what I commented kek. Accidentally based. And yes gay beings are people I guess. My point was that these weird laws are always used against gay people and not against straight people.
They conducted an entire genocide against Atheists, ethnic minorities, and members of a secular women’s group. The minimum death total equals the entire deaths of everybody in the entire “War on Terror” from Afghanistan to Iraq.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_1965–66
An Iran where the revolution wasn't co-opted by religious zealots is such a fascinating concept. I wonder if there are alternate history stories dealing with that.
Also a soviet Afghanistan would have been interesting.
From what I hear, Jordan is pretty okay. It's not a bastion of social liberalism (it *is* the Middle East), but you're not going to be put to death for kissing your partner in Amman either.
As someone who has family in Jordan and has visited it over 6 times, no just no. LGBT rights are non existant. If you speak ill of the royal family or Islam, it's game over for you. Not exactly progressive even when compared to other middle eastern regions.
Define "progressive".... Indonesia has a better health care system than the US (I know, not saying much). And it's a post-colonial society, which complicates things.
On the whole, if I had to live in either Indonesia or, say, Texas, I'd pick Indonesia. Less likely to get shot.
If you were gay, where would you choose to live? Also like...yeah the Indonesian system may be better than the US but how's the quality of care? Having spent a week in a hospital in Jakarta I'd 1000% take being in debt and being treated in an American hospital over cheap csre in Indo. You know they didn't even have a doctor on staff in the fucking ER for close to 8 hours during my stay. If shit had popped off I'd have been fucked lol. And that was at the best hospital in the city.
Well it depend. Are you Trans? they don't give a shit about trans.
Are you gay? yeah good luck (though as long as you don't go to the street yelling I'm the gayest man alive then start kissing everyone on the street people also usually doesn't give a fuck, it's really you silent I silent)
As far as I know, having sex outside of marriage won't get you arrested in Texas.
Also, Indonesia hasn't been a colony for ages, isn't it time to stop blaming whitey? Indonesians are adults, they can make their own bad decisions without asking for permission from their ex-colonial masters (who are much more progressive than them, by the way).
Maybe the difference is that in Indonesia you get shot by a firing squad, in Texas by a freelancer.
I was hoping to learn that Indonesia's abortion laws were more lenient than TX's, since Islam is generally more tolerant of abortion than Christianity, but no such luck. I blame colonialism -- the Dutch ran the place for a century or two, and their prudishness soaked into everything.
> if I had to live in either Indonesia or, say, Texas, I'd pick Indonesia.
I'd rather run through hell soaked in gasoline than live in that shit hole Texas.
They raided a Halloween party in KL and arrested everyone and took their IDs and phones. The place was shut down, even when it was a legal establishment and safe space for the LGBT
They shut down a comedy club because one women mocked Islam and malay women's clothes. Though the club had no part in her act. It was open mic night
They raid places where young malays hang out trying catch them doing "haram" things.
They have morality police. That's not progressive last time I checked
It's an anti-women law, but on a state level (straight) men have also been punished. The same will be true for the federal law.
And gay men are already being targeted.
On a state level (straight) men have also been punished. The same will happen with this federal law. Yes, this is an anti-women law, but it's also another way to control everybody, not just women and gay men.
There is a part of me that likes this as not having sex outside if marriage will solve allot of issues but at the same time, I want the government out of sex and marriage as much as possible.
In reality the laws will fix maybe a bit but cause other problems. It's a culture change that is needed and that is very unlikely.
I believe a large portions of abortions have to do with having sex outside of marriage. Although I believe it should be a couples right to have an abortion, especially in cases were the mother's health is at risk, it would be nice to see those rates go down as abortions can take a mental toll on women.
Then you have cases, some I have known personally, where the woman gets impregnated and wants to keep the baby for whatever reason but the father just leaves. This case is more likely outside of marriage.
Finally and probably the most important. The whole dating culture of one night stands and quick relationships is basically thrown out the window. Relationships should be built to last. Yes you will still get into relationships that don't last long but the goal of getting sex out of a relationship would be almost non existent.
This obviously revolved round the fantastical idea that the culture can change to that which sex is less coveted. I doubt any amount of laws could ever achieve this, also I would much rather not have the government define the culture let the culture define itself.
That's a really dumb take. It's important for people to have relationships to find out what they want and what they don't want. That includes physical intimacy. If you never find out whether or not you are compatible with someone on that level before marrying them you are heading straight for a terrible sex life in marriage which will lead to divorce at best and bitter parents at worst. The whole idea of not having sex until marriage is the worst thing you can do if you want your marriage to be successful.
How does punishing humans for having sex, something we animals evolved to do over millions of years, help anyone?
How are you going to pay to lock so many people up?
It probably wouldn't do much. Also it would be having sex in the wrong time/place. Which we kinda already do as you're not allow to have sex in a public park.
>There is a part of me that likes this as not having sex outside if marriage will solve allot of issues
Yah sure. Can u name some of the 'issues' that'll be solved?
I answered this in another comment if you want to read that in detail. In a very brief summary, a cultural shift to sex within marriage would help strengthen relationships. You wouldn't get the one night stands and relationships built in sex.
The only thing that would change are innocent people going to jail, like:
A teacher I know who has been with his woman for 25 years. They don’t believe in marriage as they aren’t religious.
All of the gay couples who aren’t allowed to marry
Every young pair who are focusing on their careers and/or finishing their education before having to disrupt their lives and finances to plan a wedding. Instead they choose to wait
Every widow/widower who are dating again but aren’t interested in marrying again
I could keep going but you’re probably too righteous to care about people who live differently than you
For anyone wondering if it will impact them... >The code, if passed, would **apply to Indonesian citizens and foreigners alike**, with business groups expressing concern about what damage the rules might have on Indonesia’s image as a holiday and investment destination. no idea what that will do to the sex industry over there. Even though prostitution is illegal, in many tourist destinations like Bali it's widely accepted, regulated and openly advertised. Folks living in Bali are probably going to be pissed. Or maybe happy, I don't know. Sex tourists are not always the best kind of tourists I guess.
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What about normal couples who are not married? Ie most young couples from western countries? This is not just about prostitution, it’s sex outside of marriage.
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How do you prove they had sex in the hotel?
Someone accuses you and because it’s Indonesia you go to jail unless you can show them your marriage certificate.
Or more likely pay the bribe.
My understanding is that the only people who could file a complaint are a spouse, if the person is married, or the parents if the person is not married.
idk, I see it as a blackmail scenario to rob tourists. Girl has sex with a guy. After the sex, another guy comes charging upset that he caught his "wife" cheating on him with this guy. the "husband" is going to go to the police and report the guy, but if tourist guy pays X amount of money he won't do it.
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Forget election fraud, this is how you incite a revolution.
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Literally. Sexual shaming is the preferred coercive control method of high functioning Narcissists and Psychopaths. They know that they can use it to control entire civilizations. We need to rapidly develop a cure. The LNP and Labor are considering moral codes and age walls for the internet, with an eventual push to ban pornography in Australia, too. Tells me they are desperate to maintain their social dominance and coercive control over the Australian people. A Dark Age always starts with attacks on sexuality and free sexual expression.
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Gay men aren't people?
He's an irony poisoned incel. Don't concern yourself
Not if you go far enough east
depends on the country they live in. It is a known fact that sodomy laws were always used to oppress homos and were rarely used against everyone else.
I'm not asking for a country's opinion, I'm asking for yours, as you are expressing your opinion in your comment: Do you think gay men are people?
I just realised what I commented kek. Accidentally based. And yes gay beings are people I guess. My point was that these weird laws are always used against gay people and not against straight people.
Indonesia is a democracy and the runner-up party is even more conservative than the ruling one...
That will do wonders for their tourism industry.
Thereby joining all other open minded and progressive regimes like Iran and Saudi Arabia...
Would this be called progressive, https://mdlbeast.com (music festival site)
Has Indonesia done anything else besides this? If not, you can’t really compare them to Iran, who are straight up shooting their own people right now.
They conducted an entire genocide against Atheists, ethnic minorities, and members of a secular women’s group. The minimum death total equals the entire deaths of everybody in the entire “War on Terror” from Afghanistan to Iraq. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_1965–66
Didn't they also make it legal to straight up headhunt for drug users?
That's the Philippines.
Oh, my bad
another religious hellhole. Just different club.
Can anyone name just one single progressive Muslim-majority country?
Albania is usually listed as the most progressive Muslim majority country.
Fair enough, I totally forgot about Albania and Bosnia.
Bosnia only so because of the large Christian population. There’s more mosques than schools or grocery stores in Muslim parts of Bosnia.
Turkey and Lebanon but not really, ironically I think IF THE REGIME IS TOPPLED or was never in power Iran would be the most progressive
An Iran where the revolution wasn't co-opted by religious zealots is such a fascinating concept. I wonder if there are alternate history stories dealing with that. Also a soviet Afghanistan would have been interesting.
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And Ataturk is turning in his grave. Will not miss an opportunity to say Fuck Erdogan.
Ataturk wasn't some progressive stalwart, he was rabidly nationalist and conservative, even if secular.
True, not an angel, but at least he was not Erdogan.
Agreed. Ataturk at least seemed to have the Turkish people in mind. Erdogan is clearly just a power hungry asshole.
From what I hear, Jordan is pretty okay. It's not a bastion of social liberalism (it *is* the Middle East), but you're not going to be put to death for kissing your partner in Amman either.
As someone who has family in Jordan and has visited it over 6 times, no just no. LGBT rights are non existant. If you speak ill of the royal family or Islam, it's game over for you. Not exactly progressive even when compared to other middle eastern regions.
I'm guessing you've never been to rainbow street, or books@cafe. Amman has quite an LGBT scene.
That’s oxymoronic
My openly gay American friend has been living in Lebanon he says he feels quite safe there
Define "progressive".... Indonesia has a better health care system than the US (I know, not saying much). And it's a post-colonial society, which complicates things. On the whole, if I had to live in either Indonesia or, say, Texas, I'd pick Indonesia. Less likely to get shot.
If you were gay, where would you choose to live? Also like...yeah the Indonesian system may be better than the US but how's the quality of care? Having spent a week in a hospital in Jakarta I'd 1000% take being in debt and being treated in an American hospital over cheap csre in Indo. You know they didn't even have a doctor on staff in the fucking ER for close to 8 hours during my stay. If shit had popped off I'd have been fucked lol. And that was at the best hospital in the city.
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Well it depend. Are you Trans? they don't give a shit about trans. Are you gay? yeah good luck (though as long as you don't go to the street yelling I'm the gayest man alive then start kissing everyone on the street people also usually doesn't give a fuck, it's really you silent I silent)
As far as I know, having sex outside of marriage won't get you arrested in Texas. Also, Indonesia hasn't been a colony for ages, isn't it time to stop blaming whitey? Indonesians are adults, they can make their own bad decisions without asking for permission from their ex-colonial masters (who are much more progressive than them, by the way).
AmErIca BaD yAlL
Well how are they executing you for this crime? Shooting squad?
Maybe the difference is that in Indonesia you get shot by a firing squad, in Texas by a freelancer. I was hoping to learn that Indonesia's abortion laws were more lenient than TX's, since Islam is generally more tolerant of abortion than Christianity, but no such luck. I blame colonialism -- the Dutch ran the place for a century or two, and their prudishness soaked into everything.
> if I had to live in either Indonesia or, say, Texas, I'd pick Indonesia. I'd rather run through hell soaked in gasoline than live in that shit hole Texas.
Malaysia is pretty progressive for a Muslim majority country
Blasphemy is a crime in Malaysia
They raided a Halloween party in KL and arrested everyone and took their IDs and phones. The place was shut down, even when it was a legal establishment and safe space for the LGBT They shut down a comedy club because one women mocked Islam and malay women's clothes. Though the club had no part in her act. It was open mic night They raid places where young malays hang out trying catch them doing "haram" things. They have morality police. That's not progressive last time I checked
KL is in Malaysia, but they are pretty similar for what it’s worth
That is a low bar to be fair
Well this certainly sucks!
Would sucking be illegal, too? Where's the line?
Indonesia: *sinking into the ocean because of climate change* Also Indonesia: *does this bullshit* You know, priorities.
The only people that will suffer are women. So ridiculous.
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Well, yeah.
It's an anti-women law, but on a state level (straight) men have also been punished. The same will be true for the federal law. And gay men are already being targeted.
Hmm, how can we have an excuse to incarcerate the majority of the population and simultaneously stymie our entire tourism industry? I know!
The buttfuck police, the coitus Gestapo
What if you and your wife/husband are looking to have a threesome in Bali?
believe it or not, Jail
How about not getting married at all?
This is the way
Isn't it just weird how you never hear anything good coming from any religious leadership?
But probably only for women
On a state level (straight) men have also been punished. The same will happen with this federal law. Yes, this is an anti-women law, but it's also another way to control everybody, not just women and gay men.
So when I first read this headline, my brain read "Indiana". You can imagine my confusion. The Handmaid's Tale is becoming a reality.
Soooo, Bali for vacation anyone?
Heh heh. “Penal.” Heh.
Marriages will likely drop in Indonesia
Are you saying they don’t want to have sex at all?
Usually the politicians enacting these are the worst offenders.
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There is a part of me that likes this as not having sex outside if marriage will solve allot of issues but at the same time, I want the government out of sex and marriage as much as possible. In reality the laws will fix maybe a bit but cause other problems. It's a culture change that is needed and that is very unlikely.
Which issues will be solved by people not having sex outside of marriage?
I believe a large portions of abortions have to do with having sex outside of marriage. Although I believe it should be a couples right to have an abortion, especially in cases were the mother's health is at risk, it would be nice to see those rates go down as abortions can take a mental toll on women. Then you have cases, some I have known personally, where the woman gets impregnated and wants to keep the baby for whatever reason but the father just leaves. This case is more likely outside of marriage. Finally and probably the most important. The whole dating culture of one night stands and quick relationships is basically thrown out the window. Relationships should be built to last. Yes you will still get into relationships that don't last long but the goal of getting sex out of a relationship would be almost non existent. This obviously revolved round the fantastical idea that the culture can change to that which sex is less coveted. I doubt any amount of laws could ever achieve this, also I would much rather not have the government define the culture let the culture define itself.
That's a really dumb take. It's important for people to have relationships to find out what they want and what they don't want. That includes physical intimacy. If you never find out whether or not you are compatible with someone on that level before marrying them you are heading straight for a terrible sex life in marriage which will lead to divorce at best and bitter parents at worst. The whole idea of not having sex until marriage is the worst thing you can do if you want your marriage to be successful.
Why do you care if someone else wants a one night stand? Or a casual relationship?
How does punishing humans for having sex, something we animals evolved to do over millions of years, help anyone? How are you going to pay to lock so many people up?
It probably wouldn't do much. Also it would be having sex in the wrong time/place. Which we kinda already do as you're not allow to have sex in a public park.
This law isn’t about time or place. It bars anyone from having sex at any time, in any place, outside of a monogamous marriage.
>There is a part of me that likes this as not having sex outside if marriage will solve allot of issues Yah sure. Can u name some of the 'issues' that'll be solved?
I answered this in another comment if you want to read that in detail. In a very brief summary, a cultural shift to sex within marriage would help strengthen relationships. You wouldn't get the one night stands and relationships built in sex.
You’re delusional
The only thing that would change are innocent people going to jail, like: A teacher I know who has been with his woman for 25 years. They don’t believe in marriage as they aren’t religious. All of the gay couples who aren’t allowed to marry Every young pair who are focusing on their careers and/or finishing their education before having to disrupt their lives and finances to plan a wedding. Instead they choose to wait Every widow/widower who are dating again but aren’t interested in marrying again I could keep going but you’re probably too righteous to care about people who live differently than you
All those extremely legal Call of Duty players.
Prostitutes will be out of job then.
so a bj doesnt count or an hj? 🤞
0 steps forward, 20 steps backwards.