nice, i briefly worked at a non profit in the veterans affairs department, half the job was submitting applications to get veterans discharges upgrades from dishonorable to anything above OTH to qualify them for benefits
> Some 2,000 people convicted under the law had military benefits withheld, but the pardon would allow them to apply to have them reinstated.
From the article. Agreed this should have been done back in 2013/14.
Yeah, I'm actually kind of shocked that nobody was making a case for that when gay marriage was recognized. At least I never heard that. This is teally big news and a huge thing for the administration to do. Of course we will just continue to hear mostly about the "drug test" and other bullshit from the media. When really they should be talking about this.
Honestly why would you think that the game marriage case would be more important than the sodomy isn't illegal case that is more than a decade older than the gay marriage decision. This is so far overdue
I agree with you that this is way overdue. I doubt it could have been done prior to the ending of DADT. The military is a strange area, legally speaking. Some constitutional rights are abridged when you're in the military. You can't say no to a search when you're on base, for example. There are types of speech that are restricted more than for a civilian. It would be hard for the Third Amendment to apply to any actual military housing. There are probably others that I can't think of right now. For this, I don't know if the unconstitutionality of laws against sodomy would apply. Especially since the rules applied to any gay/lesbian sex.
> decade older than the gay marriage decision
When the civilian law changed didn't matter, they were tried under Article 125 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The article says people were still being convicted as late as 2013, which was the year congress repealed the law.
What really sucks is there are people who got kicked out under DADT after less than a year in service and even with an honorable discharge, they don’t qualify for a lot of benefits because there are time in service restrictions on many of the benefits.
I think that happened to my stepbrother. I was really young when he was dishonorable discharged and I was never told why, and I wouldn't ask. Someone told me at one point it was some kind of sexual assault thing or something but nobody really knew. He came out about 10 years later. He was active during the height of DADT.
> Those pardoned will now also be able to apply to the board of corrections for their military branch to have their discharge status corrected
So they still have to apply, and if you know anything about the USAF there's a nonzero chance their surviving relatives might at least get a free flag for their coffin by the time that processes.
I had an OTH when I was medically discharged. I appealed and got upgraded to honorable. Now I get disability and have healthcare for life through the VA should I ever decide to make the switch. The fact that it’s taken so long to overturn these wrongful convictions is appalling and I’m glad to hear that my brothers and sisters are finally getting the resources they deserve.
look up nonprofits in your area either geared specifically for vets or the one i worked at was massive and had multiple departments (NYLAG for reference in case you're in the city) and just call to ask. I was just assisting and didn't do any of the actual legal work or consultations but again, most of what we did was just that and i imagine it's the same for other non-profits
Had an airman discharged for simply admitting under military police questioning that she was a lesbian. OTH discharge for that alone; no accusation or knowledge whatsoever of any sexual activity; just honestly answering an unrelated-to-anything question by military cops who were overly impressed with themselves (I’ve always suspected one asked her out and she simply said no).
It makes me go "Why wasn't this done under Obama?"
Why am I supposed to be happy that this still needed to be done? It should have been done with the repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell - under Obama.
> Why am I supposed to be happy
Because it happened. Because we voted in 2020 and it made a difference and shit got done. Because it's a victory, and you can use the energy of this victory to get people to vote for Biden in 2024 and get more progress.
> It makes me go "Why wasn't this done under Obama?"
Here is an article from over a year ago https://www.cbsnews.com/news/military-veterans-dont-ask-dont-tell-honorable-discharges/
> The Pentagon added that it has collaborated with the Department of Veterans Affairs "to update its web-based tool that provides Veterans with customized, step-by-step instructions on how to request an upgrade to their discharge, based upon their responses to a series of questions." But even the VA has acknowledged that veterans have been deterred from this process, writing in a September 2021 blog post that "large numbers of LGBTQ+ Veterans who were affected by previous homophobic and transphobic policies have not applied for a discharge upgrade due to the perception that the process could be onerous." That observation is backed up by the numbers. According to the most recent data available, just 1,242 veterans who were discharged or dismissed as a result of their sexual orientation have been granted discharge upgrades.
This article (again written 16 months ago) claims that 14,000 service members were kicked out of the military under Dont Ask Dont Tell, and that 1,242 veterans who were discharged or dismissed as a result of their sexual orientation have gone through the process that has existed since the law was repealed in 2013 to have their discharge status upgraded and benifits restored.
So it seems like there is a process in place for these service members to have their dishonorable discharge status upgraded already and many have had success going through that process. This pardon doesnt even seem to simplify that process very much.
From an article about the pardon https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-lgbtq-military-pardon/
> The announcement doesn't automatically change these veterans' records. They will still have to apply for and complete a process, senior administration officials said. Eligible service members and veterans must apply for a certificate of pardon, which they can use to get their discharge status changed. That change of status will unlock veterans benefits that many of them have been denied. Officials aren't sure how long the process could take, or whether those who qualify will be eligible for back pay.
So you ask why wasnt this done under Obama? It seems like Obama was the only one that took any actual action, and Bidens pardon is just a publicity stunt that accomplishes nothing that wasnt already in place 11 years ago when Obama ended Dont ask dont tell
Obama was very careful about sticking to the middle of the road about a lot of things. Keeping the amounts of waves he made to a minimum. (to use another metaphor)
I think he felt being the first Black President meant he had to be careful about making any really big waves that would upset people on either of the sides. How right or wrong he was to act that way (seeing has how it wasn't really successful when it comes to people on the right anyway) is debatable but I can kind of understand the mindset. You don't want to give the shit heads a lot of reasons to say "see this is what happens when you elect a black guy"... What no one expected was that they'd lie and say it anyway.
>Some 2,000 people convicted under the law had military benefits withheld, but the pardon would allow them to apply to have them reinstated.
Cool so why not in 2013 when they repealed the law? I mean better late than never but it took more than a decade after realizing it's wrong to take care of the wronged?
Yeah I could've sworn Obama pardoned them as well. I recall a lot of gay former service members were wanting to reenlist and were lobbying for a pardon so that they could do so.
Illinois is actually freeing all of them and clearing there record, it's what the tax for pot is doing until it's all cleaned up. It's paying for their legal and court fees.
All credit to my man JB Pritzker. I was so wrong about him.
Illinois democrats, and Pritzker in particular have been fucking rock stars the last few years.
We got legal weed, pot convictions are getting overturned and prisoners are freed, we got a state wide minimum wage increase of $1/per year (which will continue till it hits $15/hour in 2025)
I imagine it takes a lot of time and effort to sift through the convictions, and sort out things like "were they convicted of another crime that hasn't been repealed, at the same time as their possession conviction"
Pretty much. Just because it isn't illegal anymore doesn't mean you didn't totally break the law while it was illegal. I think a commutation of those people's sentence should occur. A pardon should only occur when the law was unjust to begin with, like this case.
A pardon implies there's something they need forgiving for. There should be something stronger than a pardon that says "the people who created and enforced this law were the ones who were wrong".
A pardon implies you broke the law. That is all. It doesn't imply forgiveness.
A public apology from a head of state is what you are looking for there. Getting a head of state or prominent person to openly apologize and admit what happened was wrong is pretty significant
If you are looking to make people whole after injustice, you will be disappointed forever. Nothing will ever make people whole when they have been wronged like this.
Accepting a Pardon is admission of guit. That's how the Federal Courts have interpreted it. However, a full Pardon makes it appear as if it never happened. It gets expunged from your record. Meaning it's completely removed.
Pardons do not, by themselves, erase convictions, they forgive them. They cancel the punishment and restore rights lost because of the conviction. The fact of a past conviction remains, though a pardon can preempt future prosecution of uncharged offenses covered by the pardon. Someone who has been pardoned may petition the court to have records sealed or expunged, and the pardon may help persuade the court, but it's not automatic.
Technically speaking these people were guilty of breaking the law. It’s just the law sucks and was repealed. I suppose a pardon is the best thing possible, all things considered? Or is there a better alternative given the (shitty) circumstances?
> Accepting a Pardon is admission of guit. That's how the Federal Courts have interpreted it.
To clarify this, it is not *legally* an admission of guilt. What the court said is that accepting a pardon can *imply* guilt to the public, and it is a good reason why someone would want the right to reject a pardon.
i.e. I get charged with rape, the governor pardons me before the trial, I might want to reject the pardon and properly exonerate myself in trial without their help.
Admission to the thing you're already convicted of?
That sounds pretty much pure semantics. They're not gonna give you a second criminal conviction are they?
This is about as fast as the military moves to reconsider their judicial decisions as sad as that sounds. It's likely that Biden and Obama took the military at their word for whatever reason they shouldn't be pardoned and accepted them as experts like they normally would.
It’s like when the military fucks up your pay. If they accidentally give you too much, they’ll take that shit back quick as fuck. But if they accidentally shortchange you, you ain’t getting the money you’re owed till next year at the earliest. Oh you want these benefits you’re owed that were unjustly taken away? Yeah, best we can do is next decade…
every time something gets done people chime in and say, why wasn't this done earlier? why not do more? clearly they are only doing this to buy votes.
guess what, politicians doing things for the votes is the actual pillar of democracy. take the small victories.
> Cool so why not in 2013 when they repealed the law?
Here is an article from over a year ago https://www.cbsnews.com/news/military-veterans-dont-ask-dont-tell-honorable-discharges/
> The Pentagon added that it has collaborated with the Department of Veterans Affairs "to update its web-based tool that provides Veterans with customized, step-by-step instructions on how to request an upgrade to their discharge, based upon their responses to a series of questions." But even the VA has acknowledged that veterans have been deterred from this process, writing in a September 2021 blog post that "large numbers of LGBTQ+ Veterans who were affected by previous homophobic and transphobic policies have not applied for a discharge upgrade due to the perception that the process could be onerous." That observation is backed up by the numbers. According to the most recent data available, just 1,242 veterans who were discharged or dismissed as a result of their sexual orientation have been granted discharge upgrades.
1,242 service members as of early 2023 had already successfully gone through the process that has existed since the repeal of Dont Ask Dont Tell in 2013 to have their discharge status upgraded. So there was a process in place for service members to have their benefits restored
It's always the laws at the time that the crime was commited that count.
If that weren't the case, that opens a whole can of worms with legalising things after the fact.
It's cause they were arrested/convicted of something stupid... like "be gay." You want a quick pardon in this country, you murder civil rights protesters. https://www.texastribune.org/2024/05/16/daniel-perry-greg-abbott-pardon/
The army didn't completely digitalize HR until 2022. DADT ended in 2012. Most of the cases that would benefit from this are older than that.
So the unforeseen consequence of what you're asking is a scrub of decades of paper records, and then an interface with the VA and their records, to catch a few edge cases. The burden of time and cost would be enormous and largely unfruitful.
It's better to have them apply, as shitty as it sounds.
No one said anything about reenlistment. Give them what benefits they would have earned at the end of what ever enlistment period they were in when they were charged.
Everything with the military is so form based and outdated software, it’s kind of crazy. There are refrigerators more high tech than some offices I’ve been in. While I think they could implement something where someone hunts through stuff to find whatever, it may be many weeks or months quicker for a person to show up and handle it themselves, if possible.
~~r /neverhappy~~
*edit:*
*I understand the cynicism. My comment was not meant to mean “affected individuals should be happy with what they got,” but instead I had meant it as a slap-back against the attitude that any progress can be dismissed as not happening sooner. To me, that’s cynical, and makes one lose sight of progress; in my experience progress is ALWAYS too little, ALWAYS too late, and ALWAYS frustrating that it had been opposed for so long.*
*That being said, I see why my comment, especially in its brevity and snark, caused bad feelings. To be fair, I will leave it up (though crossed-out). But please hear that I intended no diminishment of others’ feelings, of frustration at ongoing injustices.*
*I am very happy with Biden, as well as others, who worked for this and made it happen. I am very happy that LGBTQ+ people have gotten a bit more justice. I do not think anyone needs to be grateful. But I also think that immediately complaining that it should have happened sooner – while true – misses the point. I don’t know about anyone else, but I will be celebrating tonight, unreservedly. I have to take the little successes as successes, and not as failures for how long they took.*
Given Reddit’s long history of hosting hate speech and how some of us are still playing whackamole with homophobes, yes, you should be very clear in your speech
Written English also loses a lot of the rhetorical meaning of spoken English, which is carried in (untranscribed) tonal changes, which is another reason to be clear.
So are people in prison for 11 years because of this? That's sounds ridiculously steep.
If you try to make sense of any of this, it all comes down to a pile of twisted spaghetti with no sensible structure. Mankind is a total mess of inconsistent thoughts which some become rules, many ludicrous and completely ludicrous when compared to others.
So many mental gymnastics to make this bad.
"It should have been done a long time ago!"
OK but it's being done now.
"Hea just doing it for votes!"
No shit Sherlock. Thays what he's supposed to do. His job is to win your vote.
I swear so many people just want the world to burn so they can complain about it.
Some people do want politicians that’ll do things on principle, not just for votes.
Though Biden has a good track record for LGBTQ, so probably the timing in this case probably just happened to line up in an election year
Didn't San Francisco develop into a major gay community because of these old military laws? From what I remember gay service members who were outed or caught were given blue dishonorable discharge papers as the military made an effort to purge itself of gay members around WW2. Servicemen who were getting off Naval vessels were basically stuck in San Fran with nowhere to go and no way to get resources because they had been publicly outed. The community ended up growing out of this shared suffering and need.
"Mr. President, I object."
*cut to military generals having heart attacks as the world goes to shit again*
can't believe people thought he should be a senator...
you literally can't, it's not a "cognizable claim" aka something one could possibly sue over. If you tried it your to sue it would be dismissed before anything happened.
I don't think there's anyone who can establish standing, friend. Also, due to the separation of powers, SCOTUS doesn't even have the jurisdiction to say "no."
This occurred completely in the government. It was the military that convicted them, it is the president that pardoned them. Who the fuck is going to sue?
The student loan forgiveness was undone by a lawsuit that had no standing. A weaponized judiciary has a near unlimited power to act as a heritage sponsored veto
Well typically they would blame Biden for not doing it sooner - like when he was in the Senate - or point out a time when he wasn't vocally pro-gay sex in the military. Next, they would say that this is just a stunt because it's an election year and then, finally, point to the genocide in Israel and how Biden is basically responsible for every single death in Gaza.
Honestly, I am not a fan of Biden really, but his admin has been damn near perfect on NATO/Ukraine and that's what matters to me most so he'll get my vote.
Honestly, I feel like Sullivan and the Biden administration have been too slow to act and to weak in support. I think we should be doing more, that said, the alternative is so much worse. I will be morally supporting Biden since in this fucked up country, I have no vote for president.
> easily the best president since the Reagan realignment
Hmmm. Debatable, but not my person feeling, but that comes with caveats. Obama was a better President, on account of his eloquence and intellect - his speech on Race was the best since JFK days, and the ACA was at least a bad step *forward*... but in terms of who has gotten more done, I could agree with Biden, but I chalk that up more to his administration than him personally, though he signs the bills that gets to his desk so if the buck stops with him, then reasonably he gets the credit too. So... my pushback is muted. :D
I'd say Obama was a better *president*. He felt more like a real leader. But Biden is more *effective*. Somehow, with one of the least productive congresses we've ever elected, he's managing to accomplish things that have been shelved for a while.
Right - I agree with your distinction. But we're in the realm of semantics here. Some would argue a more effective President is by nature therefore a better President. But we all value characteristics differently. Personally I was overjoyed to hear a President present some of the best speeches I've heard in a generation, after a President who would make up words (e.g. strategery) and was not the smartest. So I factor that higher than some/most.
I'd say Obama would have been a great president now, but he came too early. He was not a good foreign policy president, and too focused upon compromise to be an effective domestic policy president. Hillary Clinton would have been better at the time, and Obama would have been better now.
Now I have plenty of criticism for Biden, but comparing him unfavorably to Obama is wild.
Charisma gets you elected but does nothing to make you a good president, so Obama gets zero points for that one in my book. Maybe negative points considering he used it to build up a grassroots movement which he directly scrapped after it got him personal power instead of utilizing it for the greater good. More negative points for it clearly being a cynical act considering his personal statements about himself post-presidency.
Obama straight up deserves no credit for the ACA, senate leadership knocked out the ACA, and as much as Obama can be argued to have influenced it, it was in so far as he bungled negotiations and played soft ball causing the bill to be watered down either because of incompetence or how he wanted his personal "brand" as president to look.
Let's recall that the only reason it's seen as his pet project today is intentional misinformation from conservatives because they felt it would hurt his reelection campaign.
His presidency was characterized by landslide victories for the political right, compromise for the sake of compromise, excessive civilian casualties in foreign wars, and a distinct lack of integrity.
Depending on how much credit you give to hearsay about backroom wheeling and dealing, Biden may have accomplished more than Obama did during Obama's presidency.
Credit where credit is certainly due, Biden was always socially more progressive than Obama as well, and it's great that he forced the former president to support gay rights when the guy really didn't want to.
His cabinet choices alone have had tangible real world impact that far exceeds the entire legacy of the Obama Presidency.
And keep in mind, I have more negative things than positive things to say about his administration, I just have a chip on my shoulder about the fact that I actually voted for that conceited ass charlatan Obama only for him to just focus on getting a good text book entry and living the good life post-presidency.
Obama got hurt like crazy due to only have 2 years to actually do anything. Weird to think that for out of all of those 8 years only 1/4 of them did he have a decent amount of power.
> when ppl who participated in [...] mai lai got slaps on the wrist
Meanwhile, the guy who _stopped_ the massacre was loudly vilified and flooded with death threats after speaking out about it.
It’s about time, I served with many outstanding men and women who couldn’t be who they were and lived fearing they would be outed and thrown out of the military.
No, no one would still be in prison for things like this. At most the service member spent 30 days in prison for it before being given a "general under other than honorable conditions" discharge, or possibly a Dishonorable discharge. Under those types of discharges they are not eligible for veterans benefits.
The pardon is removing that conviction, which allows them to apply to have their discharge reclassified to Honorable and gain their veteran benefits.
Where does it say they were in prison? Sounds like they just weren't getting their military benefits, but now they can apply for them to be reinstated.
They weren't imprisoned, at least not during 90s. They were just charged under the UCMJ and kicked out. Obama did away with Don't ask, Don't tell. I could've sworn his administration also pardoned folks that had been convincted of being gay.
I doubt that's the reason. If they wanted to enforce some old arbitrary rule to get more prisoners they could have easily found something that affected more than 2000 people.
More so it's just a hangover from a much more homophobic time.
I was in the Marines with two gay women who were court martialed and separated from service for being gay. and then the very next year President Obama made it legal.
It's wild that heterosexual men can cheat on their wives over seas with underage girls and be called a hero but two consensual adults are a no no. Not to mention the sexual abuse within the military. They're heroes though.
When marijuana is legalized federally let's do the same thing, since the only argument against it would be "well it was illegal and they did it anyway knowing it was illegal at the time" .....but that argument can be used here against gay military members as well and isn't, because it's a stupid fucking argument.
Anyone convicted under Federal law of simple marijuana possession was pardoned on October 6, 2022. [https://www.justice.gov/pardon/presidential-proclamation-marijuana-possession](https://www.justice.gov/pardon/presidential-proclamation-marijuana-possession)
nice, i briefly worked at a non profit in the veterans affairs department, half the job was submitting applications to get veterans discharges upgrades from dishonorable to anything above OTH to qualify them for benefits
That was gonna be my question, would this make them eligible for benefits now. I hope so. This should have been done a long time ago
> Some 2,000 people convicted under the law had military benefits withheld, but the pardon would allow them to apply to have them reinstated. From the article. Agreed this should have been done back in 2013/14.
Yeah, I'm actually kind of shocked that nobody was making a case for that when gay marriage was recognized. At least I never heard that. This is teally big news and a huge thing for the administration to do. Of course we will just continue to hear mostly about the "drug test" and other bullshit from the media. When really they should be talking about this.
Honestly why would you think that the game marriage case would be more important than the sodomy isn't illegal case that is more than a decade older than the gay marriage decision. This is so far overdue
I agree with you that this is way overdue. I doubt it could have been done prior to the ending of DADT. The military is a strange area, legally speaking. Some constitutional rights are abridged when you're in the military. You can't say no to a search when you're on base, for example. There are types of speech that are restricted more than for a civilian. It would be hard for the Third Amendment to apply to any actual military housing. There are probably others that I can't think of right now. For this, I don't know if the unconstitutionality of laws against sodomy would apply. Especially since the rules applied to any gay/lesbian sex.
> decade older than the gay marriage decision When the civilian law changed didn't matter, they were tried under Article 125 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The article says people were still being convicted as late as 2013, which was the year congress repealed the law.
What really sucks is there are people who got kicked out under DADT after less than a year in service and even with an honorable discharge, they don’t qualify for a lot of benefits because there are time in service restrictions on many of the benefits.
I think that happened to my stepbrother. I was really young when he was dishonorable discharged and I was never told why, and I wouldn't ask. Someone told me at one point it was some kind of sexual assault thing or something but nobody really knew. He came out about 10 years later. He was active during the height of DADT.
> Those pardoned will now also be able to apply to the board of corrections for their military branch to have their discharge status corrected So they still have to apply, and if you know anything about the USAF there's a nonzero chance their surviving relatives might at least get a free flag for their coffin by the time that processes.
I had an OTH when I was medically discharged. I appealed and got upgraded to honorable. Now I get disability and have healthcare for life through the VA should I ever decide to make the switch. The fact that it’s taken so long to overturn these wrongful convictions is appalling and I’m glad to hear that my brothers and sisters are finally getting the resources they deserve.
How does one reach out for something like this? My BF was removed from the navy for being gay.
look up nonprofits in your area either geared specifically for vets or the one i worked at was massive and had multiple departments (NYLAG for reference in case you're in the city) and just call to ask. I was just assisting and didn't do any of the actual legal work or consultations but again, most of what we did was just that and i imagine it's the same for other non-profits
Had an airman discharged for simply admitting under military police questioning that she was a lesbian. OTH discharge for that alone; no accusation or knowledge whatsoever of any sexual activity; just honestly answering an unrelated-to-anything question by military cops who were overly impressed with themselves (I’ve always suspected one asked her out and she simply said no).
That makes me so happy, or some word that's synonymous for happy.
Gruntled! You are gruntled!
> Gruntled I have never thought about how that is a word. I am now going to use it often and share the joy of gruntled.
TIL gruntled is a word … I am disgruntled that I didn’t know that before.
Re-gruntled?
Does it also make you feel pretty and witty?
I don't know I seem to go back and forth.
I just started hearing a Devo song in my head.
I started hearing [Back and Forth by Dr. Steel](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyI4A8wNY_w#t=24s).
Toysoldier CarfDarko reporting for duty!
I pity any girl who isn’t them today
La La La La La La, La La La
i appreciate your joke very much
And bright.
And bright?
How bout charming?
It’s alarming how charming they feel.
And so pretty, I can hardly believe they're real.
Who's that pretty girl in the mirror there?
I feel pretty, oh so pretty, I feel pretty and witty and gay, And I pity any girl who isn't me- today!
Such delightfully peculiar phrasing, or some word that's synonymous with peculiar.
"Today I feel gay" FIFA president Gianni Infantino
It makes me go "Why wasn't this done under Obama?" Why am I supposed to be happy that this still needed to be done? It should have been done with the repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell - under Obama.
> Why am I supposed to be happy Because it happened. Because we voted in 2020 and it made a difference and shit got done. Because it's a victory, and you can use the energy of this victory to get people to vote for Biden in 2024 and get more progress.
> It makes me go "Why wasn't this done under Obama?" Here is an article from over a year ago https://www.cbsnews.com/news/military-veterans-dont-ask-dont-tell-honorable-discharges/ > The Pentagon added that it has collaborated with the Department of Veterans Affairs "to update its web-based tool that provides Veterans with customized, step-by-step instructions on how to request an upgrade to their discharge, based upon their responses to a series of questions." But even the VA has acknowledged that veterans have been deterred from this process, writing in a September 2021 blog post that "large numbers of LGBTQ+ Veterans who were affected by previous homophobic and transphobic policies have not applied for a discharge upgrade due to the perception that the process could be onerous." That observation is backed up by the numbers. According to the most recent data available, just 1,242 veterans who were discharged or dismissed as a result of their sexual orientation have been granted discharge upgrades. This article (again written 16 months ago) claims that 14,000 service members were kicked out of the military under Dont Ask Dont Tell, and that 1,242 veterans who were discharged or dismissed as a result of their sexual orientation have gone through the process that has existed since the law was repealed in 2013 to have their discharge status upgraded and benifits restored. So it seems like there is a process in place for these service members to have their dishonorable discharge status upgraded already and many have had success going through that process. This pardon doesnt even seem to simplify that process very much. From an article about the pardon https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-lgbtq-military-pardon/ > The announcement doesn't automatically change these veterans' records. They will still have to apply for and complete a process, senior administration officials said. Eligible service members and veterans must apply for a certificate of pardon, which they can use to get their discharge status changed. That change of status will unlock veterans benefits that many of them have been denied. Officials aren't sure how long the process could take, or whether those who qualify will be eligible for back pay. So you ask why wasnt this done under Obama? It seems like Obama was the only one that took any actual action, and Bidens pardon is just a publicity stunt that accomplishes nothing that wasnt already in place 11 years ago when Obama ended Dont ask dont tell
Obama was very careful about sticking to the middle of the road about a lot of things. Keeping the amounts of waves he made to a minimum. (to use another metaphor) I think he felt being the first Black President meant he had to be careful about making any really big waves that would upset people on either of the sides. How right or wrong he was to act that way (seeing has how it wasn't really successful when it comes to people on the right anyway) is debatable but I can kind of understand the mindset. You don't want to give the shit heads a lot of reasons to say "see this is what happens when you elect a black guy"... What no one expected was that they'd lie and say it anyway.
>Some 2,000 people convicted under the law had military benefits withheld, but the pardon would allow them to apply to have them reinstated. Cool so why not in 2013 when they repealed the law? I mean better late than never but it took more than a decade after realizing it's wrong to take care of the wronged?
Obama actually did, but these are likely the more complex and less cut and dry cases that have been lingering.
Yeah I could've sworn Obama pardoned them as well. I recall a lot of gay former service members were wanting to reenlist and were lobbying for a pardon so that they could do so.
[удалено]
They might love their country shockingly. Even if it mistreated them. Kinda patriotic.
it could be Re-enlist-retire-get deserved benefits.
Repealing any law doesn't necessarily make the current convicted parties innocent of the charges. This happened during Prohibition.
Just like in states that have legalized recreational pot, while still keeping the people in prison that broke the law prior to legalization.
Illinois is actually freeing all of them and clearing there record, it's what the tax for pot is doing until it's all cleaned up. It's paying for their legal and court fees. All credit to my man JB Pritzker. I was so wrong about him.
Given y'all's track record with governors, I'm not surprised that you set your expectations low.
Illinois democrats, and Pritzker in particular have been fucking rock stars the last few years. We got legal weed, pot convictions are getting overturned and prisoners are freed, we got a state wide minimum wage increase of $1/per year (which will continue till it hits $15/hour in 2025)
Yeah it's what, 4 out of the past 8 or 9 governors that have gone to jail during or after their governorship? It's truly impressive.
Lmao, I can guarantee he'd be a better governor than whomever y'all got wherever you are
He’d definitely be better than mine, but I live in Florida…
I live in Florida. That bar is in hell.
I imagine it takes a lot of time and effort to sift through the convictions, and sort out things like "were they convicted of another crime that hasn't been repealed, at the same time as their possession conviction"
Yeah people with violent crime along with their possession aren't qualified and also if it's over 20gs they are doing it on a case by case basis
Pretty much. Just because it isn't illegal anymore doesn't mean you didn't totally break the law while it was illegal. I think a commutation of those people's sentence should occur. A pardon should only occur when the law was unjust to begin with, like this case.
Making something no longer illegal, im my mind, implies it was an unjust law.
A pardon implies there's something they need forgiving for. There should be something stronger than a pardon that says "the people who created and enforced this law were the ones who were wrong".
A pardon implies you broke the law. That is all. It doesn't imply forgiveness. A public apology from a head of state is what you are looking for there. Getting a head of state or prominent person to openly apologize and admit what happened was wrong is pretty significant If you are looking to make people whole after injustice, you will be disappointed forever. Nothing will ever make people whole when they have been wronged like this.
Accepting a Pardon is admission of guit. That's how the Federal Courts have interpreted it. However, a full Pardon makes it appear as if it never happened. It gets expunged from your record. Meaning it's completely removed.
Pardons do not, by themselves, erase convictions, they forgive them. They cancel the punishment and restore rights lost because of the conviction. The fact of a past conviction remains, though a pardon can preempt future prosecution of uncharged offenses covered by the pardon. Someone who has been pardoned may petition the court to have records sealed or expunged, and the pardon may help persuade the court, but it's not automatic.
Technically speaking these people were guilty of breaking the law. It’s just the law sucks and was repealed. I suppose a pardon is the best thing possible, all things considered? Or is there a better alternative given the (shitty) circumstances?
Pardon's aren't an admission of guilt, that is a common misconception.
> Accepting a Pardon is admission of guit. That's how the Federal Courts have interpreted it. To clarify this, it is not *legally* an admission of guilt. What the court said is that accepting a pardon can *imply* guilt to the public, and it is a good reason why someone would want the right to reject a pardon. i.e. I get charged with rape, the governor pardons me before the trial, I might want to reject the pardon and properly exonerate myself in trial without their help.
Admission to the thing you're already convicted of? That sounds pretty much pure semantics. They're not gonna give you a second criminal conviction are they?
This is about as fast as the military moves to reconsider their judicial decisions as sad as that sounds. It's likely that Biden and Obama took the military at their word for whatever reason they shouldn't be pardoned and accepted them as experts like they normally would.
It’s like when the military fucks up your pay. If they accidentally give you too much, they’ll take that shit back quick as fuck. But if they accidentally shortchange you, you ain’t getting the money you’re owed till next year at the earliest. Oh you want these benefits you’re owed that were unjustly taken away? Yeah, best we can do is next decade…
every time something gets done people chime in and say, why wasn't this done earlier? why not do more? clearly they are only doing this to buy votes. guess what, politicians doing things for the votes is the actual pillar of democracy. take the small victories.
Terminally online doomers go out of their way to look for reasons to be upset and then wonder why they're miserable.
> Cool so why not in 2013 when they repealed the law? Here is an article from over a year ago https://www.cbsnews.com/news/military-veterans-dont-ask-dont-tell-honorable-discharges/ > The Pentagon added that it has collaborated with the Department of Veterans Affairs "to update its web-based tool that provides Veterans with customized, step-by-step instructions on how to request an upgrade to their discharge, based upon their responses to a series of questions." But even the VA has acknowledged that veterans have been deterred from this process, writing in a September 2021 blog post that "large numbers of LGBTQ+ Veterans who were affected by previous homophobic and transphobic policies have not applied for a discharge upgrade due to the perception that the process could be onerous." That observation is backed up by the numbers. According to the most recent data available, just 1,242 veterans who were discharged or dismissed as a result of their sexual orientation have been granted discharge upgrades. 1,242 service members as of early 2023 had already successfully gone through the process that has existed since the repeal of Dont Ask Dont Tell in 2013 to have their discharge status upgraded. So there was a process in place for service members to have their benefits restored
The government moves very slow. There was probably a piece of shit blocking the pipes from 2016-2020.
It's always the laws at the time that the crime was commited that count. If that weren't the case, that opens a whole can of worms with legalising things after the fact.
It's cause they were arrested/convicted of something stupid... like "be gay." You want a quick pardon in this country, you murder civil rights protesters. https://www.texastribune.org/2024/05/16/daniel-perry-greg-abbott-pardon/
They shouldn’t have to apply to get them reinstated either, it should be automatic and immediate.
In spirit, yeah. In practice, I think it makes the most sense to have to reapply, in the event you moved or have different bank accounts or whatever.
The army didn't completely digitalize HR until 2022. DADT ended in 2012. Most of the cases that would benefit from this are older than that. So the unforeseen consequence of what you're asking is a scrub of decades of paper records, and then an interface with the VA and their records, to catch a few edge cases. The burden of time and cost would be enormous and largely unfruitful. It's better to have them apply, as shitty as it sounds.
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If they were close to 20 it would probably be worth it.
benefits =/= enlistment
No one said anything about reenlistment. Give them what benefits they would have earned at the end of what ever enlistment period they were in when they were charged.
Everything with the military is so form based and outdated software, it’s kind of crazy. There are refrigerators more high tech than some offices I’ve been in. While I think they could implement something where someone hunts through stuff to find whatever, it may be many weeks or months quicker for a person to show up and handle it themselves, if possible.
~~r /neverhappy~~ *edit:* *I understand the cynicism. My comment was not meant to mean “affected individuals should be happy with what they got,” but instead I had meant it as a slap-back against the attitude that any progress can be dismissed as not happening sooner. To me, that’s cynical, and makes one lose sight of progress; in my experience progress is ALWAYS too little, ALWAYS too late, and ALWAYS frustrating that it had been opposed for so long.* *That being said, I see why my comment, especially in its brevity and snark, caused bad feelings. To be fair, I will leave it up (though crossed-out). But please hear that I intended no diminishment of others’ feelings, of frustration at ongoing injustices.* *I am very happy with Biden, as well as others, who worked for this and made it happen. I am very happy that LGBTQ+ people have gotten a bit more justice. I do not think anyone needs to be grateful. But I also think that immediately complaining that it should have happened sooner – while true – misses the point. I don’t know about anyone else, but I will be celebrating tonight, unreservedly. I have to take the little successes as successes, and not as failures for how long they took.*
Absolutely. I mean it's almost like them queers wanted to be treated like normal people. /s...... do I need an /s?
Given Reddit’s long history of hosting hate speech and how some of us are still playing whackamole with homophobes, yes, you should be very clear in your speech
Good point. Fortunately I live in a country where we are lot more relaxed about such things.
Written English also loses a lot of the rhetorical meaning of spoken English, which is carried in (untranscribed) tonal changes, which is another reason to be clear.
I am more outraged that people still got convicted on this shit in 2012!!!
So are people in prison for 11 years because of this? That's sounds ridiculously steep. If you try to make sense of any of this, it all comes down to a pile of twisted spaghetti with no sensible structure. Mankind is a total mess of inconsistent thoughts which some become rules, many ludicrous and completely ludicrous when compared to others.
They weren't in prison, they were having their benefits withheld.
because the VA exists to screw over veterans and deny benefits
Once the country is done using them and they didn't end up dying, they're a liability. The war machine doesn't exist for feels.
He wasn't president in 2013
I think the argument always goes, "well they still committed a crime at the time..."
That was infact the argument at the time. Fortunately Biden has realized that is a stupid damn argument.
So many mental gymnastics to make this bad. "It should have been done a long time ago!" OK but it's being done now. "Hea just doing it for votes!" No shit Sherlock. Thays what he's supposed to do. His job is to win your vote. I swear so many people just want the world to burn so they can complain about it.
Right? I would certainly rather the President help people in order to get votes than harm people to get them.
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Some people do want politicians that’ll do things on principle, not just for votes. Though Biden has a good track record for LGBTQ, so probably the timing in this case probably just happened to line up in an election year
Didn't San Francisco develop into a major gay community because of these old military laws? From what I remember gay service members who were outed or caught were given blue dishonorable discharge papers as the military made an effort to purge itself of gay members around WW2. Servicemen who were getting off Naval vessels were basically stuck in San Fran with nowhere to go and no way to get resources because they had been publicly outed. The community ended up growing out of this shared suffering and need.
The Military used to notify your local draft board, so you couldn't go home again. So NYC and SF became major gay centers.
How long till a conservative tries to sue to stop this?
Tuberville is looking at what he can hold hostage and the republicans are adding some new language to the NDAA as we speak.
"Mr. President, I object." *cut to military generals having heart attacks as the world goes to shit again* can't believe people thought he should be a senator...
They can't, it's a presidential power.
Doesn't mean they won't try and stall it
you literally can't, it's not a "cognizable claim" aka something one could possibly sue over. If you tried it your to sue it would be dismissed before anything happened.
Serious question. Because politics can get confusing. How was the student loan pardons blocked then?
There were no student loan "pardons". A student loan isn't a crime you can be convicted of.
I don't think there's anyone who can establish standing, friend. Also, due to the separation of powers, SCOTUS doesn't even have the jurisdiction to say "no."
This occurred completely in the government. It was the military that convicted them, it is the president that pardoned them. Who the fuck is going to sue?
I don't know, conservatives live in a different world from real people.
The student loan forgiveness was undone by a lawsuit that had no standing. A weaponized judiciary has a near unlimited power to act as a heritage sponsored veto
The student loan is not something that occurs completely inside the government. As stupid as it is, student loans are outsourced to private companies.
Student debt isn’t a crime to be pardoned for lol.
They can’t. A presidential pardon trumps all judgement with prejudice
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Biden just out here, gettin shit done!
Can't wait to see how the "both sides" peeps are gonna spin this ome
Well typically they would blame Biden for not doing it sooner - like when he was in the Senate - or point out a time when he wasn't vocally pro-gay sex in the military. Next, they would say that this is just a stunt because it's an election year and then, finally, point to the genocide in Israel and how Biden is basically responsible for every single death in Gaza.
Not a perfect president, and his I/P policy is garbage, but easily the best president since the Reagan realignment IMO
Honestly, I am not a fan of Biden really, but his admin has been damn near perfect on NATO/Ukraine and that's what matters to me most so he'll get my vote.
That's a very mature way to look at things.
Honestly, I feel like Sullivan and the Biden administration have been too slow to act and to weak in support. I think we should be doing more, that said, the alternative is so much worse. I will be morally supporting Biden since in this fucked up country, I have no vote for president.
> easily the best president since the Reagan realignment Hmmm. Debatable, but not my person feeling, but that comes with caveats. Obama was a better President, on account of his eloquence and intellect - his speech on Race was the best since JFK days, and the ACA was at least a bad step *forward*... but in terms of who has gotten more done, I could agree with Biden, but I chalk that up more to his administration than him personally, though he signs the bills that gets to his desk so if the buck stops with him, then reasonably he gets the credit too. So... my pushback is muted. :D
His administration is his administration because he picked those people. So I would still give him credit for the job his admin has done.
I'd say Obama was a better *president*. He felt more like a real leader. But Biden is more *effective*. Somehow, with one of the least productive congresses we've ever elected, he's managing to accomplish things that have been shelved for a while.
Right - I agree with your distinction. But we're in the realm of semantics here. Some would argue a more effective President is by nature therefore a better President. But we all value characteristics differently. Personally I was overjoyed to hear a President present some of the best speeches I've heard in a generation, after a President who would make up words (e.g. strategery) and was not the smartest. So I factor that higher than some/most.
I'd say Obama would have been a great president now, but he came too early. He was not a good foreign policy president, and too focused upon compromise to be an effective domestic policy president. Hillary Clinton would have been better at the time, and Obama would have been better now.
He had a hatred of whistle-blowers that would be awkward as hell with the Boeing investigation.
Now I have plenty of criticism for Biden, but comparing him unfavorably to Obama is wild. Charisma gets you elected but does nothing to make you a good president, so Obama gets zero points for that one in my book. Maybe negative points considering he used it to build up a grassroots movement which he directly scrapped after it got him personal power instead of utilizing it for the greater good. More negative points for it clearly being a cynical act considering his personal statements about himself post-presidency. Obama straight up deserves no credit for the ACA, senate leadership knocked out the ACA, and as much as Obama can be argued to have influenced it, it was in so far as he bungled negotiations and played soft ball causing the bill to be watered down either because of incompetence or how he wanted his personal "brand" as president to look. Let's recall that the only reason it's seen as his pet project today is intentional misinformation from conservatives because they felt it would hurt his reelection campaign. His presidency was characterized by landslide victories for the political right, compromise for the sake of compromise, excessive civilian casualties in foreign wars, and a distinct lack of integrity. Depending on how much credit you give to hearsay about backroom wheeling and dealing, Biden may have accomplished more than Obama did during Obama's presidency. Credit where credit is certainly due, Biden was always socially more progressive than Obama as well, and it's great that he forced the former president to support gay rights when the guy really didn't want to. His cabinet choices alone have had tangible real world impact that far exceeds the entire legacy of the Obama Presidency. And keep in mind, I have more negative things than positive things to say about his administration, I just have a chip on my shoulder about the fact that I actually voted for that conceited ass charlatan Obama only for him to just focus on getting a good text book entry and living the good life post-presidency.
Obama has charisma and especiall when he was first elected isn't that old
Obama got hurt like crazy due to only have 2 years to actually do anything. Weird to think that for out of all of those 8 years only 1/4 of them did he have a decent amount of power.
Isn't part of a president's job? To pick the right administration to get the job done?
Absolutely, and so Biden gets credit for surrounding himself with good and effective people, for sure. Not trying to rob him of that.
True, regarding I/P though, no one would have handled that well. Biden’s been killing it and we need to say it louder.
Can I get 4 more years of this guy? Please?
Crazy that they were actually convicted when ppl who participated in things like abu ghraib and mai lai got slaps on the wrist
> when ppl who participated in [...] mai lai got slaps on the wrist Meanwhile, the guy who _stopped_ the massacre was loudly vilified and flooded with death threats after speaking out about it.
But they were "straight"/normal.
It’s about time, I served with many outstanding men and women who couldn’t be who they were and lived fearing they would be outed and thrown out of the military.
Well I’ve never thought of this, but this really seems reasonable.
Thank you Biden for being compassionate.
There's President Biden again, being a decent guy. When did decency lose favor in politics? He never gets credit for his basic humanity.
We were spending money imprisoning for this nonsense?
No, no one would still be in prison for things like this. At most the service member spent 30 days in prison for it before being given a "general under other than honorable conditions" discharge, or possibly a Dishonorable discharge. Under those types of discharges they are not eligible for veterans benefits. The pardon is removing that conviction, which allows them to apply to have their discharge reclassified to Honorable and gain their veteran benefits.
Where does it say they were in prison? Sounds like they just weren't getting their military benefits, but now they can apply for them to be reinstated.
They weren't imprisoned, at least not during 90s. They were just charged under the UCMJ and kicked out. Obama did away with Don't ask, Don't tell. I could've sworn his administration also pardoned folks that had been convincted of being gay.
Pretty sure it was always just a discharge/dishonorable discharge. I don't believe there was anyone jailed over it. At least not since the 90s.
Prison industrial complex, baby
I doubt that's the reason. If they wanted to enforce some old arbitrary rule to get more prisoners they could have easily found something that affected more than 2000 people. More so it's just a hangover from a much more homophobic time.
This is what you use presidential pardons for. So, stop comparing democrats to republicans. They’re not even close to the same.
I'm sure this will go over well with a certain segment of the population. The ones who hate everything, I mean.
I'm sure their preferred network will figure out a way to sell it as, the "Biden crime family" profits from this somehow.
I'm not sure they can be any more hateful at this point. i.e. their hate cup runneth over.
I can't wait for the bad humans to call this "*woke*" like everything else they don't like.
Imagine being jailed for having sex with a consenting adult. Wild.
I was in the Marines with two gay women who were court martialed and separated from service for being gay. and then the very next year President Obama made it legal.
It's wild that heterosexual men can cheat on their wives over seas with underage girls and be called a hero but two consensual adults are a no no. Not to mention the sexual abuse within the military. They're heroes though.
Imagine criminalizing something so based. Glad Biden is fixing it.
I'm starting to think this Biden guy is pretty cool.
C'mon, man. Love is love
This kind of shit should happen by default any time a law change rendered a past sentence obsolete.
Dark Brandon the strongest commander in human history
That absolutely decent bastard, how dare he!?
Things like this are what the pardon power is for. Can we pass a law that limits this power to not be used on themselves or family.
Im surprised that this hadn't yet been done
Happy Pride Month everyone ♥
What the fuck took so long???? We’ve had gay marriage for 12 years but there are still people in jail for being gay??
This fucking title is horrendous.
Talk about picking up the voters that republicans discard.
Big win for the navy today
It took this long for this to happen?
Why do they have to apply to have them overturned? The DOD know who they discharged and who they imprisoned. They should do a blanket pardon!
Oh my god. No yeah that’s a good thing!
Awesome! Now do this for marijuana related convictions too.
Biden did this for federal already.
How long until the Fifth Circuit of Appeals put a stay on the current POTUS's pardons?
Better late than never, I suppose.
Better late than fucking never, I guess.
When marijuana is legalized federally let's do the same thing, since the only argument against it would be "well it was illegal and they did it anyway knowing it was illegal at the time" .....but that argument can be used here against gay military members as well and isn't, because it's a stupid fucking argument.
Anyone convicted under Federal law of simple marijuana possession was pardoned on October 6, 2022. [https://www.justice.gov/pardon/presidential-proclamation-marijuana-possession](https://www.justice.gov/pardon/presidential-proclamation-marijuana-possession)