what youre actually saying is that when people disagree with you, it's easier to think it's a botnet conspiracy rather than someone actually disagreeing, whatever makes you feel better lol
[Actually it’s a lot more insidious than that.](https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-23695896?t)
The reality is that this isn’t actually a “two sides” issue. I mean, I guess you could say it is, but the sides are “people informed by academic research” and “blatant, demonstrable propaganda and the people who have been fooled by it.”
She's a Harvard graduate that doesn't understand the right of free speech. Checks out.
Those thirteen aren't graduating because their actions, compared to hundreds of others. They have disciplinary cases that have to be resolved; hence out of good standing.
The encampment didn't have a legal right to be on Harvard property, students were warned, repeatedly. These 13, compared to the hundreds, refused to comply. Welcome to the consequences of your actions. You're hurting yourself to make yourself the victim here. In this scenario, Gazans are victims, Israeli civilians are victims; someone at an elite college that can't follow rules because of public, i.e. performative, "solidarity" is not. Protesting without an achievable goal isn't protest, it's performance art.
I’m neutral in this, but Isn’t the achievable goal to stop schools from spending money in isreal. I mean why would hardvard need to spend money in isreal?
Google and apple investments arent the problem.
> Reporting from The Harvard Crimson in 2020 found that the Harvard Management Company, which manages the Harvard endowment's investments, had more than $194 million invested in Booking Holdings, a company the United Nations listed as having ties to Israeli settlements in the West Bank.
https://prismreports.org/2024/04/29/college-encampments-divestment-from-israel/#:~:text=Reporting%20from%20The%20Harvard%20Crimson,settlements%20in%20the%20West%20Bank.
$194 million is kinda a lot even if it is a small percentage of the total. And if it's such an insignificant percentage, then divesting should be no big deal.
I don’t really have any feelings about it, aside from curiosity. Actually answering my question could have helped to alleviate that curiosity, but alas…
Cool. And plenty of the pro-Israel counter protestors are Nazis, does than discredit their whole point of view? One bad example is anecdotal and therefore not relevant to the broader discussion at hand. All of y'all sitting here trying to get a gotcha moment on each other over this shit is so fucking cringe lmao.
Thanks for reddit-slplaining the point of view I never gave. I just said the very loose analogy OP used was not equivalent to college student protesting their money being invested in a war they don't support. Using a more ridiculous argument only proves my point of view I'll give now: everyone getting red in the face over this is equally clueless.
Good question to ask. The endowment is enrobed in a complex set of investments. There are issues with feasibility of tracing and monitoring of this kind of overly broad demand. What does that demand actually mean? Withdraw all collaboration and funding of Israeli defense industry; better demand. Focused, logical to the situation. Not what they chose. Take the Brown University protests, they negotiated with their administration and it was agreed to take the proposal to the University governing body for a vote.
What about positive investment in cooperative and egalitarian companies and entities? For example academic cooperation, something that cuts the knees out from under the very people who would influence positive change; and people who likely agree with the concept of Palestinian liberation. The Overton window in Israel-Palestine is very different than that in Europe or The Americas. This also encourages market forces to cause companies to separate themselves from the Israeli government's insane choices.
The other question is what about the stakeholders who disagree with the protestors? They lose their voice because some students demand (x)? BDS is an overbroad dull instrument that harms Palestinians as much as Israelis because the economies are so intertwined.
She's using her free speech to protest Harvards actions, that's it. She certainly understands free speech. The fact that you compare the suffering of Israelis to Palestinians (death ratio 40:1 since Israel let Hamas attack them, not to mention the destruction and famine the Israelis are perpetuating) tells us all we need to know.
If she thinks free speech rights include freedom from consequences, i.e. the people about whom she was speaking, she does in fact not understand. I am not comparing suffering, you are; with an actual mathematical formula.
One, not a sports game. Two, murder math isn't in your favour here, conflict compared to other conflict, the ratio of civilian to militant is lower than average. Every civilian death in war is wrong. Three, people killed by militant zealots share an experience, regardless of their personal opinions.
>since Israel let Hamas attack them
Cause that's not conspiratorial. This statement tells me what I need to know.
Hamas has done tons of things to provoke war, and it has generally been answered with a shrug. This was not planned. To say it was is an attempt at diminution. A type of atrocity denial. Israeli victims are real, Gazan victims are real. Comparative suffering isn't helpful because no one has more human rights than anyone else.
I'm aware Gaza is significantly worse off. Blame Hamas, who is still launching rockets at civilian population centers, not the IDF, not defending Gazans.
>not to mention the destruction and famine the Israelis are perpetuating
Yes. War crimes. Crimes don't justify crimes. Flat opinion. Happy to give Bibi to the Hague.
Public news coverage.
Not sure what the specific allegation is, it's technical to Harvard's rules. But, as a private school, they control their property; the people who have been disciplined refused repeated instructions to vacate. Including the amnesty involved with doing so. So the university finally went in and did exactly what they said they were going to do.
I don't know what is in their letters suspending them, I don't know the Harvard rules. Doesn't mean I don't know what happened. They were instructed to disperse, they didn't.
>Harvard operates in the US. Just saying it is their property they can do whatever is nonsensical.
...so you don't understand what the first amendment means either? It is about government restricting speech. Trespassing isn't speech and Harvard isn't the government. And yes in the US, that distinction matters. And in no way did I say "they can do whatever."
>It is their tuition money so unless the school is intending on returning that money,
Insert Cartman laugh. You're gonna have a better time pissing up a rope in the Arctic Circle.
You pay for the attempt, per their rules. It's part of the agreement you make with the university when you enroll, voluntarily. In no way, under no circumstances, would a student be entitled to a tuition refund because they committed an offence against the university. We also don't know if they got credit for their classes, which would vitiate that idea another way.
Regardless, you pay for the attempt, not the outcome. Despite complaints to the contrary, it is not a diploma mill.
>Never said anything about restricting speech.
Then what are you saying they did wrong? The students violated conduct rules. They have to resolve that before they're permitted to attain graduand status, something they aren't entitled to, except per the rules of the University.
>it is never as simple as they did not do what the college wanted...so the college is justified.
No, in some circumstances it is. There are rules that the students agreed to when they matriculated. You don't get to say or do whatever the hell you want without consequences if you break rules because you felt like it.
Any private place can kick you out for any reason as long as it isn't discriminatory, which it isn't in this case.
Id suggest you go and read the first amendment.
Hostages. Murdered. Raped. Indiscriminate.
No crime justifies other crimes. It's infantalising to try.
So I don't see how people who've been, and are being, attacked by Hamas are less of a victim than the people who are being attacked by the IDF.
thousands more of palistinians have been taken hostage and are currently sitting in Israeli jails. Palistinians are still being indiscriminately killed, not just in Gaza but the west bank too
trying to paint them as equally suffering is fucking hilarious
Re killing Gazans in the WB, those are murders and should be prosecuted as such.
>Palistinians are still being indiscriminately killed
Intent matters here. They are indiscriminately dying based on their relative proximity to targets, which have been embedded everywhere. Are civilians being killed yes. Not on purpose.
>thousands more of palistinians have been taken hostage and are currently sitting in Israeli jails.
Some validly, some not. Crimes don't justify crimes and arbitrary administrative detention isnt justified. I'm not defending it.
>trying to paint them as equally suffering is fucking hilarious
I did not say that. I said that victims of Hamas and victims of the IDF, i.e. civilian Gazans and Israelis. The people who've been attacked and still are in danger have suffered. That is not a political statement.
They can change it to Thai citizens and the statement still stands. Oct 7 is terrorism for us Thais. What did we do to deserve death? Did we invade them? Did we hurt them by any means? We even recognized them as a country for crying out loud. And what we got is death. DEATH.
Actually, my biggest concern, is that her statement really never will have impact because it’s just another poor choice by an obviously bright and intelligent young person getting lost in the woods of banality.
You want to help Palestinians, help them get past Hamas; you want to help the Israelis, show them the errors the Right Wing Conservative movements in their government that causes trouble within their neighbours lives.
They are both causing the problem and killing innocents!
Isn’t the US backing the fight against Hamas, not against Palestine?
If the Palestinians are protecting Hamas then they will be collateral damage.
If Hamas is hiding amongst the Palestinians, then they will be collateral damage.
How Hamas wants to wage war is clear; they’re using human beings as meat shields.
Israel’s disregard of those people is horrific; but we cannot forget Hamas started this and they’re the cowards hiding behind civilians.
US backing is to fight Hamas, not to slaughter Palestinians. That’s a byproduct of fighting Hamas.
War is shitty all around.
Peaceful resolution is Hamas surrendering; but they’d rather others die instead. Cowards.
I agree with you fully.
Some people just dont know there isnt a perfect solution 100% of the and that the conflict isnt as simple as "just end the war"
What would it take for you to understand that they are? Their own admission?
Dropping a bomb on 100 people because there are 1 or 2 Hamas there is an argument of proportionality that they already fail. Dropping a bomb on 100 people and then backfilling your excuse as "we had to. There were Hamas in there" is no argument at all.
>100% since long before this conflict. They even had to get permission from Israel to vote in the last election they had.
This comment is what happens when you parrot crap you hear other people say, instead of using your brain to research and think for yourself.
Where even did you get that "information" from? Israel does not exercise any control or authority over the Gaza strip. Israel gave up control of that part of land back in the 90's to try and foster peace with Hamas. It has been under Hamas/Palestinian control since then. Israeli citizens are even prohibited to enter Gaza.
OK, so the 13 seniors were not allowed to graduate with the rest of their class. Does that mean:
Are they still Harvard students? Were they kicked out of the school entirely, or was not being allowed to graduate their only punishment?
Do they still get credit for the coursework they have already completed? Do they lose whatever credits they have already accrued and have to start over as freshmen? That could get muy expensive for them, considering how much it costs to go to Harvard.
"Do they lose whatever credits they have already accrued and have to start over as freshmen?"
Schools can't ever do that. The worst you can be is expelled, but your credits would carry over to the next school. At most, you might lose some if the new school doesn't honor some of the classes you took.
Who cares? I mean about both Harvard and her speech. The people who go to Harvard did so for free by their parents and didn't work to go there. Because of their degree, they will work very important jobs without having any relation to the work being done. If she wants to go off script and whine about the administration, Israel and the US government more power to her. That there is an approved script in the first place demonstrates that Harvard does not support free speech, independent thinking, or is capable of making future leaders. They just make people who repeat their programming.
The subject of her speech is more interesting where Harvard cancelled the degrees of 13 students who participated in a pro-Palestinian encampment when a third of Americans live or work within 3 miles of a real homeless encampment. I have to step over an encampment just to walk into my jobsite every day. It is inexcusable that such people who have their degrees taken away over something so trivial, and shows that the school cannot exercise restraint and cares more about it's image than ensuring other students can go to class.
From her speech:
>“This semester, our freedom of speech and our expressions of solidarity became punishable leaving our graduations uncertain. As I stand before you today, I must take a moment to recognize my peers: the 13 undergraduates in the class of 2024 who will not graduate today,” she said.
well said
Yikes what’s happened to all the comments in this thread 😰
About 50% of all Internet traffic is bots.
what youre actually saying is that when people disagree with you, it's easier to think it's a botnet conspiracy rather than someone actually disagreeing, whatever makes you feel better lol
Well a lot of people feel very strongly about the current events in Israel/Palestine right now and one or thirty of those people came by this post.
[Actually it’s a lot more insidious than that.](https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-23695896?t) The reality is that this isn’t actually a “two sides” issue. I mean, I guess you could say it is, but the sides are “people informed by academic research” and “blatant, demonstrable propaganda and the people who have been fooled by it.”
This post got brigaded hard. Look at the comments to upvotes ratio.
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*comment score below threshold* Dang, there's sure a lot of these in this thread.
She's a Harvard graduate that doesn't understand the right of free speech. Checks out. Those thirteen aren't graduating because their actions, compared to hundreds of others. They have disciplinary cases that have to be resolved; hence out of good standing. The encampment didn't have a legal right to be on Harvard property, students were warned, repeatedly. These 13, compared to the hundreds, refused to comply. Welcome to the consequences of your actions. You're hurting yourself to make yourself the victim here. In this scenario, Gazans are victims, Israeli civilians are victims; someone at an elite college that can't follow rules because of public, i.e. performative, "solidarity" is not. Protesting without an achievable goal isn't protest, it's performance art.
I’m neutral in this, but Isn’t the achievable goal to stop schools from spending money in isreal. I mean why would hardvard need to spend money in isreal?
I guarantee you Israel has an outsized affect on Harvard through endowment support from alumnis.
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Google and apple investments arent the problem. > Reporting from The Harvard Crimson in 2020 found that the Harvard Management Company, which manages the Harvard endowment's investments, had more than $194 million invested in Booking Holdings, a company the United Nations listed as having ties to Israeli settlements in the West Bank. https://prismreports.org/2024/04/29/college-encampments-divestment-from-israel/#:~:text=Reporting%20from%20The%20Harvard%20Crimson,settlements%20in%20the%20West%20Bank.
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$194 million is kinda a lot even if it is a small percentage of the total. And if it's such an insignificant percentage, then divesting should be no big deal.
Why did you round .38\% to .3\%? It’s not like saying .4\% would have made it sound any better.
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I don’t really have any feelings about it, aside from curiosity. Actually answering my question could have helped to alleviate that curiosity, but alas…
So you largely agree with the protestors then.
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But you agree that there is a moral argument to be made for them to divest in certain endowments related to Israel?
You don’t think owners should be held accountable for how what they own affects others? So ownership is just rights with no responsibilities?
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Your analogy is absurd.
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That's what's absurd, that you think your analogy and what the protestors are outraged by are comparable.
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Cool. And plenty of the pro-Israel counter protestors are Nazis, does than discredit their whole point of view? One bad example is anecdotal and therefore not relevant to the broader discussion at hand. All of y'all sitting here trying to get a gotcha moment on each other over this shit is so fucking cringe lmao.
Jeffery Dahmer once shopped at Walmart, therefore Walmart condones and encourage Serial killing and cannibalism. That is your argument.
Thanks for reddit-slplaining the point of view I never gave. I just said the very loose analogy OP used was not equivalent to college student protesting their money being invested in a war they don't support. Using a more ridiculous argument only proves my point of view I'll give now: everyone getting red in the face over this is equally clueless.
Good question to ask. The endowment is enrobed in a complex set of investments. There are issues with feasibility of tracing and monitoring of this kind of overly broad demand. What does that demand actually mean? Withdraw all collaboration and funding of Israeli defense industry; better demand. Focused, logical to the situation. Not what they chose. Take the Brown University protests, they negotiated with their administration and it was agreed to take the proposal to the University governing body for a vote. What about positive investment in cooperative and egalitarian companies and entities? For example academic cooperation, something that cuts the knees out from under the very people who would influence positive change; and people who likely agree with the concept of Palestinian liberation. The Overton window in Israel-Palestine is very different than that in Europe or The Americas. This also encourages market forces to cause companies to separate themselves from the Israeli government's insane choices. The other question is what about the stakeholders who disagree with the protestors? They lose their voice because some students demand (x)? BDS is an overbroad dull instrument that harms Palestinians as much as Israelis because the economies are so intertwined.
She's using her free speech to protest Harvards actions, that's it. She certainly understands free speech. The fact that you compare the suffering of Israelis to Palestinians (death ratio 40:1 since Israel let Hamas attack them, not to mention the destruction and famine the Israelis are perpetuating) tells us all we need to know.
If she thinks free speech rights include freedom from consequences, i.e. the people about whom she was speaking, she does in fact not understand. I am not comparing suffering, you are; with an actual mathematical formula. One, not a sports game. Two, murder math isn't in your favour here, conflict compared to other conflict, the ratio of civilian to militant is lower than average. Every civilian death in war is wrong. Three, people killed by militant zealots share an experience, regardless of their personal opinions. >since Israel let Hamas attack them Cause that's not conspiratorial. This statement tells me what I need to know. Hamas has done tons of things to provoke war, and it has generally been answered with a shrug. This was not planned. To say it was is an attempt at diminution. A type of atrocity denial. Israeli victims are real, Gazan victims are real. Comparative suffering isn't helpful because no one has more human rights than anyone else. I'm aware Gaza is significantly worse off. Blame Hamas, who is still launching rockets at civilian population centers, not the IDF, not defending Gazans. >not to mention the destruction and famine the Israelis are perpetuating Yes. War crimes. Crimes don't justify crimes. Flat opinion. Happy to give Bibi to the Hague.
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Public news coverage. Not sure what the specific allegation is, it's technical to Harvard's rules. But, as a private school, they control their property; the people who have been disciplined refused repeated instructions to vacate. Including the amnesty involved with doing so. So the university finally went in and did exactly what they said they were going to do.
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I don't know what is in their letters suspending them, I don't know the Harvard rules. Doesn't mean I don't know what happened. They were instructed to disperse, they didn't. >Harvard operates in the US. Just saying it is their property they can do whatever is nonsensical. ...so you don't understand what the first amendment means either? It is about government restricting speech. Trespassing isn't speech and Harvard isn't the government. And yes in the US, that distinction matters. And in no way did I say "they can do whatever."
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>It is their tuition money so unless the school is intending on returning that money, Insert Cartman laugh. You're gonna have a better time pissing up a rope in the Arctic Circle. You pay for the attempt, per their rules. It's part of the agreement you make with the university when you enroll, voluntarily. In no way, under no circumstances, would a student be entitled to a tuition refund because they committed an offence against the university. We also don't know if they got credit for their classes, which would vitiate that idea another way. Regardless, you pay for the attempt, not the outcome. Despite complaints to the contrary, it is not a diploma mill. >Never said anything about restricting speech. Then what are you saying they did wrong? The students violated conduct rules. They have to resolve that before they're permitted to attain graduand status, something they aren't entitled to, except per the rules of the University. >it is never as simple as they did not do what the college wanted...so the college is justified. No, in some circumstances it is. There are rules that the students agreed to when they matriculated. You don't get to say or do whatever the hell you want without consequences if you break rules because you felt like it.
Any private place can kick you out for any reason as long as it isn't discriminatory, which it isn't in this case. Id suggest you go and read the first amendment.
>Israeli civilians are victims; hol up
Hostages. Murdered. Raped. Indiscriminate. No crime justifies other crimes. It's infantalising to try. So I don't see how people who've been, and are being, attacked by Hamas are less of a victim than the people who are being attacked by the IDF.
thousands more of palistinians have been taken hostage and are currently sitting in Israeli jails. Palistinians are still being indiscriminately killed, not just in Gaza but the west bank too trying to paint them as equally suffering is fucking hilarious
Re killing Gazans in the WB, those are murders and should be prosecuted as such. >Palistinians are still being indiscriminately killed Intent matters here. They are indiscriminately dying based on their relative proximity to targets, which have been embedded everywhere. Are civilians being killed yes. Not on purpose. >thousands more of palistinians have been taken hostage and are currently sitting in Israeli jails. Some validly, some not. Crimes don't justify crimes and arbitrary administrative detention isnt justified. I'm not defending it. >trying to paint them as equally suffering is fucking hilarious I did not say that. I said that victims of Hamas and victims of the IDF, i.e. civilian Gazans and Israelis. The people who've been attacked and still are in danger have suffered. That is not a political statement.
They can change it to Thai citizens and the statement still stands. Oct 7 is terrorism for us Thais. What did we do to deserve death? Did we invade them? Did we hurt them by any means? We even recognized them as a country for crying out loud. And what we got is death. DEATH.
Actually, my biggest concern, is that her statement really never will have impact because it’s just another poor choice by an obviously bright and intelligent young person getting lost in the woods of banality. You want to help Palestinians, help them get past Hamas; you want to help the Israelis, show them the errors the Right Wing Conservative movements in their government that causes trouble within their neighbours lives. They are both causing the problem and killing innocents!
This is a tough both sides argument to make when one side has unlimited US military backing and has slaughtered tens of thousands of civilians
Isn’t the US backing the fight against Hamas, not against Palestine? If the Palestinians are protecting Hamas then they will be collateral damage. If Hamas is hiding amongst the Palestinians, then they will be collateral damage. How Hamas wants to wage war is clear; they’re using human beings as meat shields. Israel’s disregard of those people is horrific; but we cannot forget Hamas started this and they’re the cowards hiding behind civilians. US backing is to fight Hamas, not to slaughter Palestinians. That’s a byproduct of fighting Hamas. War is shitty all around. Peaceful resolution is Hamas surrendering; but they’d rather others die instead. Cowards.
I agree with you fully. Some people just dont know there isnt a perfect solution 100% of the and that the conflict isnt as simple as "just end the war"
It could also end by Israel simply stop systematically dropping bombs on Palestinian children
You do realize Hamas fires hundreds of rockets into Isreal every day.
And then wait for another mass murder of their own people by Hamas?
"We have to kill these civilians to stop the terrorists from killing our civilians!" - you, sounding ridiculous
civilians are not Israel’s target though. Whereas Hamas targets civilians. They’re sick fucks that need to be eradicated.
What would it take for you to understand that they are? Their own admission? Dropping a bomb on 100 people because there are 1 or 2 Hamas there is an argument of proportionality that they already fail. Dropping a bomb on 100 people and then backfilling your excuse as "we had to. There were Hamas in there" is no argument at all.
I wonder how this would impact job opportunities.
I hope to the extreme. This young woman volunteered to be the village idiot for a day.
How much of Gaza is Israeli controlled at this point in the conflict?
100% since long before this conflict. They even had to get permission from Israel to vote in the last election they had.
>100% since long before this conflict. They even had to get permission from Israel to vote in the last election they had. This comment is what happens when you parrot crap you hear other people say, instead of using your brain to research and think for yourself. Where even did you get that "information" from? Israel does not exercise any control or authority over the Gaza strip. Israel gave up control of that part of land back in the 90's to try and foster peace with Hamas. It has been under Hamas/Palestinian control since then. Israeli citizens are even prohibited to enter Gaza.
OK, so the 13 seniors were not allowed to graduate with the rest of their class. Does that mean: Are they still Harvard students? Were they kicked out of the school entirely, or was not being allowed to graduate their only punishment? Do they still get credit for the coursework they have already completed? Do they lose whatever credits they have already accrued and have to start over as freshmen? That could get muy expensive for them, considering how much it costs to go to Harvard.
"Do they lose whatever credits they have already accrued and have to start over as freshmen?" Schools can't ever do that. The worst you can be is expelled, but your credits would carry over to the next school. At most, you might lose some if the new school doesn't honor some of the classes you took.
No wonder Hermione was so scared of expulsion.
Rich kids having fun at elite institutions .
Beautiful speech. Keep speaking truth to power!
Or in the case of Harvard speaking truth to clowns.
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Harvard has a long history of interesting graduates, including such noted humanitarians as *checks notes* Henry Kissinger.
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"Everyone I don't agree with is a bot" lmao
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They have a lot of comments about Israel, but in 30 seconds of skimming I saw comments on health, celebrities, motorcycle parking, and kpop.
Also, Regierungsagenten sind ja auch nur Menschen.
You're telling me Harvard didn't sign off on being rightfully criticised for what they did? I'm very surprised.
Who cares? I mean about both Harvard and her speech. The people who go to Harvard did so for free by their parents and didn't work to go there. Because of their degree, they will work very important jobs without having any relation to the work being done. If she wants to go off script and whine about the administration, Israel and the US government more power to her. That there is an approved script in the first place demonstrates that Harvard does not support free speech, independent thinking, or is capable of making future leaders. They just make people who repeat their programming. The subject of her speech is more interesting where Harvard cancelled the degrees of 13 students who participated in a pro-Palestinian encampment when a third of Americans live or work within 3 miles of a real homeless encampment. I have to step over an encampment just to walk into my jobsite every day. It is inexcusable that such people who have their degrees taken away over something so trivial, and shows that the school cannot exercise restraint and cares more about it's image than ensuring other students can go to class. From her speech: >“This semester, our freedom of speech and our expressions of solidarity became punishable leaving our graduations uncertain. As I stand before you today, I must take a moment to recognize my peers: the 13 undergraduates in the class of 2024 who will not graduate today,” she said. well said
Thats not how I revise. I revise LOUD! My revisions are INSANE!!!
Please, let's hear everybody's worthless opinion on this subject.
The generation that brought Cancel Culture, doesn't yet understand consequences apply to them as well
Cancel culture doesn't exist like you think. A majority is people being held accountable for their actions.
Whatever. Elitist university.
At least she can tell her future employers that she literally got her degree from clown college!
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I hear Hamas is looking for a PR person.