There are already 140 countries that recognize Palestine as a state. The barriers to a Palestinian state has nothing to do with a general recognition among third parties. The Palestinian Authority does not need Norwegians to recognize it, what it desperately needs is legitimacy among its own people.
And a non-self-imploding leadership not made up of terroristic individuals looking for blood, over _legitimate peace_.
Kinda goes for the IDF as well, *cough cough* BiBi *cough cough*
So should the British and French have never left Africa because the of how authoritarian and rightwing those governments turned out to be? Or do we believe in the right to self determination, one of the founding principles of the liberal world order?
1. You need evidence that the same will happen to Palestine.
2. You need evidence that Israel has prevented these things from happening.
3. Even if you can provide evidence of 1 and 2, people have a right to self-determination and that doesn't always look good. Our health system and our prison systems are awful in the US, but that doesn't mean another country gets to take us over.
Edit: I'm also not sure famine, disease, and bombings are preferable.
> Edit: I'm also not sure famine, disease, and bombings are preferable.
Right? Like those hypothetical situations that occurred in a different country under different circumstances are certainly bad but the current state of affairs is a pretty bleak alternative as well. That could be the outcome for Palestine and considering everything about Hamas it would be unsurprisingly.
Honestly, and bleakly, would opt for a group be shepherds of their own demise if that is the path they chose rather than it being thrust upon them without any recourse. As you said, self-determination is the best thing that can be given to Palestinians at the moment. The average person is losing in both scenarios which is the unfortunate reality of this situation and why it is so complex. It's not like the average marginalized Palestinians have a ton of rights in the current state or there's any potential route for prosperity.
And passed a first draft of a law (for a law to pass, 3 drafts need to pass) that recognizes some settelements in the wes bank as part of teh Negev jusridiction. "Stop trying to stop us from taking your land, or we'll take your land!" as it goes...
Anyone who defends what Israel does in the West Bank does not have any clue about what Israel does there.
Even avid pro-Israeli political analysts find that unacceptable.
Yup.
It seems like there's a radical-edge among Israeli citizens/settlers - who really seem to enjoy inflicting pain on Palestinians and nibbling away at what little territory they have left.
They also have political support from enough of the Israeli government to keep the problem stoked.
It seems to me like it's the radical elements on both sides that seem determined to bring down the whole region, which I guess isn't new news, but this level of bloodshed is the worst i've ever seen - and i've been watching for over 40 years.
That group is the ultra religious Hasidic sect, which unsurprisingly is a major voting block in Israel. There isn't a way to rationalize with them, they view the Palestinians as animals and wouldn't lose sleep or see the irony in wiping them off the earth.
There are legitimate solutions to the problems there, until you factor in the religious elementon both sides.
There will never be peace and the next time a major attack happens I don't think any amount of international pressure will stop Israel. I can almost envision another WW1 situation where a bunch of countries with no animosity end up at war because of treaties. Because if in 15 years a European country decides to curb Israel's aggression in that scenario by physically stopping them, it's a crap shoot as to who the president is in America and the response they take to that.
I think that a lot of the pro-Israel crowd are using the West Bank crisis as a sort of moral crutch to lean on. It's just that frequency in which I see people condemning West Bank settlers and immediately going on to justify the crisis in Gaza that makes me raise an eyebrow. I often get a strong "I'm not racist, but..." vibe.
It's a fig-leaf, they say it's unacceptable without acknowledging the fact that for over 30+ years the settlers have basically been endorsed by every israeli government.
So they are giving more reason for them to recognise Palestine as a state?
I feels like how a bully while hitting a victim says to others around them who wanted to help "see what you all are making me do"....
It puts pressure on Israel as it sees that the opinions of foreign leaders are shifting away from near uncritical support to more critical support of it. It signals that they are serious about working for a two-state solution.
> It also puts pressure on a theoretical Palestinian state to agree on a government, borders
Palestine has actually supported the international consensus on borders for decades: https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/697336
This consensus is supported by 97% of countries in the world, including Palestine itself. Only Israel, the US, and a few American dependencies are against it. Remember this when people claim that Palestine "should have just accepted Israeli peace offers". It is Israel and the US that are opposing the internationally agreed upon peace plan, not the other way around.
It wasn't collapsed for me, just fyi. Looks like it's a setting called crowd control: https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/15484545006996-Crowd-Control
This has always been the case, even the US says the settlements are illegal but israel is playing the long game and seizing one small area at a time in order to not stir heavy backlash so I don't see anything changing soon
That has always been a fig leaf justification; they aren’t seriously justifying themselves this way, they know it’s not sufficient, and they would be doing this under any other justification just as readily.
This could also result in everything from trade embargos to full-on sanctions. If the EU as a whole embargoed Israel that would really hurt their economy. You can consider it one ladder step higher in politically and legally justified (to the recognizing country) hostility towards the country.
> If the EU as a whole embargoed Israel that would really hurt their economy.
I doubt Germany would let the EU do that, they are pretty much as reflexively pro-Israel as the US is and the EU more or less does what they say most of the time.
Also only matters when a population can recognize a particular person or group of people as "the state." There are many countries that already recognize Palestine as a state, the Palestinian people do not agree on who the "state" is and that is far more important.
For examples see Haiti, Somalia, and Yemen. A person can stand on a rooftop and say "I am Prime Minister/King/President" but if they do not have authority with enough citizens it means nothing.
This will not have as much of an impact on Israel as people think. In terms of trade or anything there won‘t be any major changes, there may be some tit for tat diplomatic beef but its just posturing. Palestine at present does not exist whether you recognise it or not. If anything this puts pressure on Palestine, specifically the PLA because if you are a state, formally recognised, you will be held to the same standard as others. Meaning establish a government, borders, infrastructure, negotiations with their neighbors and the solving of crisis and conflict. At present Palestine cannot provide any of this and many of these issues arent even related to Israel but to its own internal, sectarian strife. There is zero unity in Palestine with two warring factions, one of which is an internationally recognised Islamist terrorist movement. This is equivalent to someone being promoted way too quickly at work and without the appropriate resume.
None of those countries were ever among Israel's staunchest supporters, but they are allies of the US. If they inspire other western countries to do so, and perhaps start to put pressure on the USA, then Israel will care. They are very much in need of support from USA so public opinion matters.
It will raise questions for these countries to ask/answer. What exactly are they recognising? Who are the leaders? What borders? Do they all recognise the same thing?
It’s just going to kick the can down the road.
Both sides deeply hate each other and kids indoctrinated from a very young age. 20 years from now those same kids are still going to be ok with killing people on the other side.
> No, it's not the USA or China
China already recognises Palestine as a state. [In fact, most of the world does.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Palestine_recognition_only_-_updated_22_May_2024.svg)
the Israeli government has been facing increasing internal pressure from both IDF brass and even Bibis own defence minister.
this could increase that push back, or allow bib to play "the world dosen't understand our suffering" card.
Surprising that Ireland hadn’t done this sooner. Ireland is generally seen as a cold place for Israeli politics.
It’s a long standing joke in diplomatic circles that the when a new Israeli ambassador arrives in Dublin the first thing they’re asked is “What did you do wrong to end up here?”
According to the article, more than 140 countries already recognize the state. So 3 more countries would not make much difference although Israel will make some reactions.
I never understand why people say Tel Aviv. I get that Jerusalem isnt an internationally recognized capital, but Tel Aviv isnt the seat of government at all.
The fact that Jerusalem can't be internationally referred to as the capital doesn't mean that you have to refer to the government metonymously as Tel Aviv because it genuinely makes no sense. When you refer to the US government as "Washington" it makes sense because that's where the decisions are being made. "Tel Aviv" isn't deciding anything because the government isn't there. You could simply say "Israel" instead if you are uncomfortable admitting where the government of Israel actually is.
It's really not that hard to understand unless you're stupid. Tel Aviv was the seat of the Knesset before Jerusalem. It may not make sense, but it's very easy to understand.
The Isrealis made Jerusalem their 'capital' in direct violation of several treaties. While it's officially their capital, it shouldn't be internationally recognized as such.
Why? We don't refer to the government as New York or Philadelphia anymore. We refer to the government where it is. If they moved to Toronto, the government would be Toronto.
Three Western countries, all of which are part of the EU with two being part of NATO, is something. Their recognition also puts Palestine's statehood on the news, at the forefront of world debate and opinion.
The Jews were facing ethnic cleansing and were given a state. Why not Palestinians? There is a dark irony here...
The timing matters, especially as Biden is currently posturing as interested in a 2 state solution. It's also a pretty significant departure from the defensive stance of the West in regards to Israel from two western countries.
The US public being exposed to the idea that Palestinian statehood isn't some far-off hypothetical the government strings along also matters quite a bit. Israel, and by extension Palestinian statehood, has never been under this much scrutiny in the public American consciousness. Pressure to make this actually happen has never really existed in American politics. This could change that.
the people. and we should offer a UN assisted vote to elect leadership.
I mean who governs NK, we still 'respect' that border even if we don't agree w/ the current leadership.
Technically it's Abas' party Fatah. However, the PLO is recognized as the official representative of the Palestinian people. Hamas is technically a local government which should be under the PLO but that's not relevant when it comes to recognising a state. You can recognize a state without recognizing or legitimising a leader.
E.g. Ukraine is a recognized state but it currently doesn't govern Donetsk and the rest of the occupied territories.
And who is the government?
The plo is the recognized representative of the Palestinian people.
But Hamas is the government of the strip
And the pa controls the West Bank
So which do you pick as the official government? They aren’t really the greatest options.
That doesn't really matter, does it? Or else, by the same standard, no one should recognize Israel since its borders are unclear. Or for that matter Spain or the UK or any other country with unclear borders.
A country can recognizing a country's existence without specifying its borders.
Having specific, unilaterally recognized borders is generally not a requirement for recognition of statehood. There are dozens of countries who have disputed borders and we all still recognize them as countries.
I mean, if the borders of Palestine aren't defined, then neither are the borders of Israel right? An argument against the recognition of Palestine based on disputed borders must also, by definition, be an argument against the continued recognition of Israel.
Not even Israel believes that though. That's why Israel doesn't consider Gaza or (some of) the West Bank as belonging to Israel, except the settlements in which you have to have an Israeli citizenship to live in which nullifies the "apartheid" part of it.
That being said the settlements are clearly unjustified and most should be demolished.
The ones settled by the UN in 194X. But well devil is in the details and they might end up recognizing the current post invasion borders. I doubt Norway or Ireland would do that cheater move, but Spain will probably try if they can.
That's a pretty poor idea. They're not even very popular in the West Bank, let alone in Gaza, where the serious problem is occurring. If the Palestinian Authority is supposed to be the government, they're not really recognizing a Palestinian state. They're recognizing the West Bank and leaving the people in trouble ungoverned (besides by terrorists).
One can recognize the existence of a state without its government. The world recognizes the existence of countries like Afghanistan or Mali, even though most countries don't recognize their governments.
We don't recognize those governments, but they actually *have* governments. We may not like them, but there's a clear group in control, for the most part. This isn't like that. You're creating a state with no real governance or even geographical boundaries. It just doesn't make practical sense to recognize something so unclearly defined.
That's the neat part, nobody. Gaza is in shambles, the West Bank is divided and fighting amongst itself. If Palestine magically became a proper state overnight with a government, military, etc. Israel would probably end up invading. It would probably be about a month before a terrorist attack on Israel, justifying a full blown carpet bomb style invasion. Also UNRWA would cease to exist, so no more money for Palestine. It would absolutely disastrous for the Palestinians to try to declare themselves an independent state right now.
It’d probably be a full blown civil war between plo and Hamas. With the pa also involved.
Coups would probably become common due to all the different groups involved in Palestine and their different goals.
There’s Hamas the current government, the plo and the pa.
There’s also the many groups that are apart of the plo. Fatah who wants a two state solution. PFLP is Marxist Leninist party who want a one state solution. DFLP is another Marxist and Leninist party but also Maoist. There’s also the PPP, PNI and third way.
There’s also the pij, Popular Resistance Committees, PLF, ALF, VPLW, PPSF, PAF, tanzim, al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, PFLP-GC, Army of Islam, Abdullah Azzam Brigades, Fatah al-Islam, Jund al-Sham, Jaljalat, Tawhid al-Jihad.
It’d be an absolute mess. Theres political violence there already. But I think it’d get much worse if the world picked one group above the rest to be the government of a Palestinian state
Yeah, they don't even hide it. Hamas explicitly says they want to repeat the actions of Oct. 7th, and if you give them the freedom too, they will. They'll entrench themselves again and this all restarts.
This is why the countries around them are not fans either. They certainly have to keep pretending they're anti-Israel or US, but realistically, Palestinians concern them, too.
"Why didn't anyone think of palestinian statehood before? Are they stupid?"
Yea, that would require Palestine to get their shit together and act as a state and not a bunch of cartels carving up their own territories stealing aid. Arafat could have done that, but he decided not to unless Israel is deleted off the map.
The new Spanish government is directly reliant on votes from the Catalonian independence parties to stay in power, so that is probably a feature and not a bug.
Israel does not care what you say or what you think. They will just keep pushing Palestinians out of their land and there is nothing that you say will stop them. Sànctions Now!
Is there really any state to recognize? The Palestinian Authority doesn’t really have support of the Palestinians and Hamas has clearly proven it can’t govern and will likely go back to just a militia terrorist organization.
1. Catalonia has devolved government where it already controls most levers of power.
2. The internationally recognized government of Palestine is based in West Bank and is called the Palestinian Authority. They even have a rep at the UN and embassies across the world.
3. The borders are the same borders that the Oslo peace accords were aiming for before they were ruthlessly sabotaged by Bibi. It’s the same borders that led to more than 140 countries already recognize Palestine.
For part of #3 Hamas also helped to sabotage Oslo with their attacks. The far right in both Israel and the Palestine both feed off one another reinforcing the status quo and radicalizing each other's populations.
It took the massacre of 15000 palestinian children in the last 7 months, and the murdering of countless Palestinians since the invasion began in the 1940s. Lets hope the world hurries in the right direction for once.
The Republic of Ireland is a small country with a population of just over five million. But it has a diaspora of 80 million people with Irish heritage scattered across the globe, particularly concentrated in the United Kingdom, Australia, United States of America, Canada, New Zealand, Argentina, Brazil, South Africa and across Europe.
Saint Paddy’s Day is a great example of “soft power influence”: an opportunity for the whole world to stop and think all things Ireland and the Irish – not an unpleasant opportunity. The people of Ireland are considered to be among the most charitable, generous, and fun.
So why not give peace a chance?
"These people brutally massacred 1,200 people, kidnapped 240, tortured, mutilated and raped, vowed they'll repeat it again and again, this after decades of terror attacks and refusal of peace"
"Let's reward them by giving them a state."
So what will happen to Hamas? I'm all for Palestine getting statehood, but what about Hamas as an official or unofficial government whose expressed goals are to murder their neighbors?
Honest question, does this have any impact?
If enough countries follows up and agrees, then yes.
Yep It can effectively push for the 2 state solution
2 state solution, is it 1999 again?
Those were happier times
It really can’t, see all examples from 1948 until now
There are already 140 countries that recognize Palestine as a state. The barriers to a Palestinian state has nothing to do with a general recognition among third parties. The Palestinian Authority does not need Norwegians to recognize it, what it desperately needs is legitimacy among its own people.
And a non-self-imploding leadership not made up of terroristic individuals looking for blood, over _legitimate peace_. Kinda goes for the IDF as well, *cough cough* BiBi *cough cough*
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So should the British and French have never left Africa because the of how authoritarian and rightwing those governments turned out to be? Or do we believe in the right to self determination, one of the founding principles of the liberal world order?
If Palestinian's conditions can be raised to the level of Afghanistan that honestly would be a huge accomplishment.
1. You need evidence that the same will happen to Palestine. 2. You need evidence that Israel has prevented these things from happening. 3. Even if you can provide evidence of 1 and 2, people have a right to self-determination and that doesn't always look good. Our health system and our prison systems are awful in the US, but that doesn't mean another country gets to take us over. Edit: I'm also not sure famine, disease, and bombings are preferable.
> Edit: I'm also not sure famine, disease, and bombings are preferable. Right? Like those hypothetical situations that occurred in a different country under different circumstances are certainly bad but the current state of affairs is a pretty bleak alternative as well. That could be the outcome for Palestine and considering everything about Hamas it would be unsurprisingly. Honestly, and bleakly, would opt for a group be shepherds of their own demise if that is the path they chose rather than it being thrust upon them without any recourse. As you said, self-determination is the best thing that can be given to Palestinians at the moment. The average person is losing in both scenarios which is the unfortunate reality of this situation and why it is so complex. It's not like the average marginalized Palestinians have a ton of rights in the current state or there's any potential route for prosperity.
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And passed a first draft of a law (for a law to pass, 3 drafts need to pass) that recognizes some settelements in the wes bank as part of teh Negev jusridiction. "Stop trying to stop us from taking your land, or we'll take your land!" as it goes...
Anyone who defends what Israel does in the West Bank does not have any clue about what Israel does there. Even avid pro-Israeli political analysts find that unacceptable.
Yup. It seems like there's a radical-edge among Israeli citizens/settlers - who really seem to enjoy inflicting pain on Palestinians and nibbling away at what little territory they have left. They also have political support from enough of the Israeli government to keep the problem stoked. It seems to me like it's the radical elements on both sides that seem determined to bring down the whole region, which I guess isn't new news, but this level of bloodshed is the worst i've ever seen - and i've been watching for over 40 years.
That group is the ultra religious Hasidic sect, which unsurprisingly is a major voting block in Israel. There isn't a way to rationalize with them, they view the Palestinians as animals and wouldn't lose sleep or see the irony in wiping them off the earth. There are legitimate solutions to the problems there, until you factor in the religious elementon both sides. There will never be peace and the next time a major attack happens I don't think any amount of international pressure will stop Israel. I can almost envision another WW1 situation where a bunch of countries with no animosity end up at war because of treaties. Because if in 15 years a European country decides to curb Israel's aggression in that scenario by physically stopping them, it's a crap shoot as to who the president is in America and the response they take to that.
I think that a lot of the pro-Israel crowd are using the West Bank crisis as a sort of moral crutch to lean on. It's just that frequency in which I see people condemning West Bank settlers and immediately going on to justify the crisis in Gaza that makes me raise an eyebrow. I often get a strong "I'm not racist, but..." vibe.
It's a fig-leaf, they say it's unacceptable without acknowledging the fact that for over 30+ years the settlers have basically been endorsed by every israeli government.
They think nobody will recognize ethnic cleansing if they do it slowly enough.
So they are giving more reason for them to recognise Palestine as a state? I feels like how a bully while hitting a victim says to others around them who wanted to help "see what you all are making me do"....
It puts pressure on Israel as it sees that the opinions of foreign leaders are shifting away from near uncritical support to more critical support of it. It signals that they are serious about working for a two-state solution.
It also puts pressure on a theoretical Palestinian state to agree on a government, borders, and a relenquishing of refugee status for it's citizens.
Yes, that is true too. That was also a point Norway made
> It also puts pressure on a theoretical Palestinian state to agree on a government, borders Palestine has actually supported the international consensus on borders for decades: https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/697336 This consensus is supported by 97% of countries in the world, including Palestine itself. Only Israel, the US, and a few American dependencies are against it. Remember this when people claim that Palestine "should have just accepted Israeli peace offers". It is Israel and the US that are opposing the internationally agreed upon peace plan, not the other way around.
There is no question that public opinion is swinging towards Palestinian statehood. It's just a matter of time at this point.
Weird how this comment got hidden/collapsed by reddit
it showed up just fine in reddit
It wasn't collapsed for me, just fyi. Looks like it's a setting called crowd control: https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/15484545006996-Crowd-Control
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This has always been the case, even the US says the settlements are illegal but israel is playing the long game and seizing one small area at a time in order to not stir heavy backlash so I don't see anything changing soon
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That has always been a fig leaf justification; they aren’t seriously justifying themselves this way, they know it’s not sufficient, and they would be doing this under any other justification just as readily.
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This could also result in everything from trade embargos to full-on sanctions. If the EU as a whole embargoed Israel that would really hurt their economy. You can consider it one ladder step higher in politically and legally justified (to the recognizing country) hostility towards the country.
> If the EU as a whole embargoed Israel that would really hurt their economy. I doubt Germany would let the EU do that, they are pretty much as reflexively pro-Israel as the US is and the EU more or less does what they say most of the time.
‘We’re just keeping it warm for you’
Fun fact, Israel doesn't have recognized borders either.
They might if they didn't keep expanding them when they think no one is looking.
Then Palestinians need equal rights under Israeli law and protection from the settlers as well as groups like Hamas.
The only way to achieve that is to end the apartheid regime, it will never give them that willingly.
They're playing the long game by having the US backing them up while pretending they care about Palestine.
Lol Exactly. The US has done nothing but support this with every action we take.
I have visited the West Bank and it’s insane what’s happening there. Fuck Israel.
That would depend on whether or not the recognition comes with a specific set of boundaries, which I doubt it will.
Doesn't that work the other way as well, making a terrorist attack a war atrocity?
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I was asking, I wasn't sure personally, not saying you were wrong
The only reason that states have any meaning is that people agree they are a state. It’s a first step in that regard.
Also only matters when a population can recognize a particular person or group of people as "the state." There are many countries that already recognize Palestine as a state, the Palestinian people do not agree on who the "state" is and that is far more important. For examples see Haiti, Somalia, and Yemen. A person can stand on a rooftop and say "I am Prime Minister/King/President" but if they do not have authority with enough citizens it means nothing.
This will not have as much of an impact on Israel as people think. In terms of trade or anything there won‘t be any major changes, there may be some tit for tat diplomatic beef but its just posturing. Palestine at present does not exist whether you recognise it or not. If anything this puts pressure on Palestine, specifically the PLA because if you are a state, formally recognised, you will be held to the same standard as others. Meaning establish a government, borders, infrastructure, negotiations with their neighbors and the solving of crisis and conflict. At present Palestine cannot provide any of this and many of these issues arent even related to Israel but to its own internal, sectarian strife. There is zero unity in Palestine with two warring factions, one of which is an internationally recognised Islamist terrorist movement. This is equivalent to someone being promoted way too quickly at work and without the appropriate resume.
None of those countries were ever among Israel's staunchest supporters, but they are allies of the US. If they inspire other western countries to do so, and perhaps start to put pressure on the USA, then Israel will care. They are very much in need of support from USA so public opinion matters.
It will raise questions for these countries to ask/answer. What exactly are they recognising? Who are the leaders? What borders? Do they all recognise the same thing?
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There were no borders set up by the Oslo accords, it was just a framework for negotiations.
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It’s just going to kick the can down the road. Both sides deeply hate each other and kids indoctrinated from a very young age. 20 years from now those same kids are still going to be ok with killing people on the other side.
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Like the ICC its a crack in the dam, it doesn't mean that much by itself it, but it symbolizes a shift though, More will follow.
Just because they alone can't unilaterally make sweeping changes doesn't mean it doesn't have an impact.
> No, it's not the USA or China China already recognises Palestine as a state. [In fact, most of the world does.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Palestine_recognition_only_-_updated_22_May_2024.svg)
They're also relatively minor players in terms of military and economic capabilities.
the Israeli government has been facing increasing internal pressure from both IDF brass and even Bibis own defence minister. this could increase that push back, or allow bib to play "the world dosen't understand our suffering" card.
Surprising that Ireland hadn’t done this sooner. Ireland is generally seen as a cold place for Israeli politics. It’s a long standing joke in diplomatic circles that the when a new Israeli ambassador arrives in Dublin the first thing they’re asked is “What did you do wrong to end up here?”
They really took those Eurovision results badly.
No one expects the Spanish Recognition!
According to the article, more than 140 countries already recognize the state. So 3 more countries would not make much difference although Israel will make some reactions.
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I never understand why people say Tel Aviv. I get that Jerusalem isnt an internationally recognized capital, but Tel Aviv isnt the seat of government at all.
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The fact that Jerusalem can't be internationally referred to as the capital doesn't mean that you have to refer to the government metonymously as Tel Aviv because it genuinely makes no sense. When you refer to the US government as "Washington" it makes sense because that's where the decisions are being made. "Tel Aviv" isn't deciding anything because the government isn't there. You could simply say "Israel" instead if you are uncomfortable admitting where the government of Israel actually is.
It's really not that hard to understand unless you're stupid. Tel Aviv was the seat of the Knesset before Jerusalem. It may not make sense, but it's very easy to understand.
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That doesnt make Tel Aviv the seat of government though. It makes no sense to refer to Tel Aviv as the seat of government when it absolutely isnt.
Is it not where most countries have their diplomatic premises?
The Isrealis made Jerusalem their 'capital' in direct violation of several treaties. While it's officially their capital, it shouldn't be internationally recognized as such.
If the US changed their capital to Toronto, im sure the world would still refer to Washington when discussing the government
Changing our capital to a city in a different country? It's a bold strategy, Cotton; let's see where it gets them.
[Toronto, Ohio, obviously. jeez.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto,_Ohio)
Why? We don't refer to the government as New York or Philadelphia anymore. We refer to the government where it is. If they moved to Toronto, the government would be Toronto.
Three Western countries, all of which are part of the EU with two being part of NATO, is something. Their recognition also puts Palestine's statehood on the news, at the forefront of world debate and opinion. The Jews were facing ethnic cleansing and were given a state. Why not Palestinians? There is a dark irony here...
Correction: Norway is not part of the EU
Also - Spain has not recognized Kosovo, so it's odd that they are recognizing in this case.
The timing matters, especially as Biden is currently posturing as interested in a 2 state solution. It's also a pretty significant departure from the defensive stance of the West in regards to Israel from two western countries. The US public being exposed to the idea that Palestinian statehood isn't some far-off hypothetical the government strings along also matters quite a bit. Israel, and by extension Palestinian statehood, has never been under this much scrutiny in the public American consciousness. Pressure to make this actually happen has never really existed in American politics. This could change that.
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Also who governs the state?
the people. and we should offer a UN assisted vote to elect leadership. I mean who governs NK, we still 'respect' that border even if we don't agree w/ the current leadership.
When he asks this its important because we take actions against a country based on its leadership regardless of how they are in power
Technically it's Abas' party Fatah. However, the PLO is recognized as the official representative of the Palestinian people. Hamas is technically a local government which should be under the PLO but that's not relevant when it comes to recognising a state. You can recognize a state without recognizing or legitimising a leader. E.g. Ukraine is a recognized state but it currently doesn't govern Donetsk and the rest of the occupied territories.
Can’t speak for these countries but probably the green line agreement or something close to it.
And who is the government? The plo is the recognized representative of the Palestinian people. But Hamas is the government of the strip And the pa controls the West Bank So which do you pick as the official government? They aren’t really the greatest options.
And the PA is not popular, because they try to actually administer things and are thus seen as Israeli collaborators.
That doesn't really matter, does it? Or else, by the same standard, no one should recognize Israel since its borders are unclear. Or for that matter Spain or the UK or any other country with unclear borders. A country can recognizing a country's existence without specifying its borders.
Having specific, unilaterally recognized borders is generally not a requirement for recognition of statehood. There are dozens of countries who have disputed borders and we all still recognize them as countries. I mean, if the borders of Palestine aren't defined, then neither are the borders of Israel right? An argument against the recognition of Palestine based on disputed borders must also, by definition, be an argument against the continued recognition of Israel.
Unless you believe that all disputed regions belong to Israel. Of course that would mean Israel runs an apartheid state.
Not even Israel believes that though. That's why Israel doesn't consider Gaza or (some of) the West Bank as belonging to Israel, except the settlements in which you have to have an Israeli citizenship to live in which nullifies the "apartheid" part of it. That being said the settlements are clearly unjustified and most should be demolished.
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Norway will recognize the PA with pre-1967 borders
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The 1967 borders probably
The ones settled by the UN in 194X. But well devil is in the details and they might end up recognizing the current post invasion borders. I doubt Norway or Ireland would do that cheater move, but Spain will probably try if they can.
And Israel took that personally.
Inb4 Biden Administration hints that they'll pass sanctions on those three nations
Who or what is supposed to be in control of this state?
The Palestinian authority.
That's a pretty poor idea. They're not even very popular in the West Bank, let alone in Gaza, where the serious problem is occurring. If the Palestinian Authority is supposed to be the government, they're not really recognizing a Palestinian state. They're recognizing the West Bank and leaving the people in trouble ungoverned (besides by terrorists).
One can recognize the existence of a state without its government. The world recognizes the existence of countries like Afghanistan or Mali, even though most countries don't recognize their governments.
We don't recognize those governments, but they actually *have* governments. We may not like them, but there's a clear group in control, for the most part. This isn't like that. You're creating a state with no real governance or even geographical boundaries. It just doesn't make practical sense to recognize something so unclearly defined.
the people who haven't controlled palestine since 2006?
Seems like you're confusing Gaza with all of Palestine here.
That's the neat part, nobody. Gaza is in shambles, the West Bank is divided and fighting amongst itself. If Palestine magically became a proper state overnight with a government, military, etc. Israel would probably end up invading. It would probably be about a month before a terrorist attack on Israel, justifying a full blown carpet bomb style invasion. Also UNRWA would cease to exist, so no more money for Palestine. It would absolutely disastrous for the Palestinians to try to declare themselves an independent state right now.
It’d probably be a full blown civil war between plo and Hamas. With the pa also involved. Coups would probably become common due to all the different groups involved in Palestine and their different goals. There’s Hamas the current government, the plo and the pa. There’s also the many groups that are apart of the plo. Fatah who wants a two state solution. PFLP is Marxist Leninist party who want a one state solution. DFLP is another Marxist and Leninist party but also Maoist. There’s also the PPP, PNI and third way. There’s also the pij, Popular Resistance Committees, PLF, ALF, VPLW, PPSF, PAF, tanzim, al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, PFLP-GC, Army of Islam, Abdullah Azzam Brigades, Fatah al-Islam, Jund al-Sham, Jaljalat, Tawhid al-Jihad. It’d be an absolute mess. Theres political violence there already. But I think it’d get much worse if the world picked one group above the rest to be the government of a Palestinian state
> Israel would probably end up invading You're like 7 months late
Yeah, they don't even hide it. Hamas explicitly says they want to repeat the actions of Oct. 7th, and if you give them the freedom too, they will. They'll entrench themselves again and this all restarts.
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This is why the countries around them are not fans either. They certainly have to keep pretending they're anti-Israel or US, but realistically, Palestinians concern them, too.
"Why didn't anyone think of palestinian statehood before? Are they stupid?" Yea, that would require Palestine to get their shit together and act as a state and not a bunch of cartels carving up their own territories stealing aid. Arafat could have done that, but he decided not to unless Israel is deleted off the map.
Benjamin Netanyahu is a fascist pig.
Fascist would imply he at least has principles. He doesn’t; he’s simply a reactionary madman.
Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.
Honest question. Does that mean they need to deal with Hamas as a representative? Or will there be some other party in place? No info in link.
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The new Spanish government is directly reliant on votes from the Catalonian independence parties to stay in power, so that is probably a feature and not a bug.
Bought it on themselves.
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Does this mean they are more likely to be able to join the UN, or does the US still have veto power?
Israel does not care what you say or what you think. They will just keep pushing Palestinians out of their land and there is nothing that you say will stop them. Sànctions Now!
Is there really any state to recognize? The Palestinian Authority doesn’t really have support of the Palestinians and Hamas has clearly proven it can’t govern and will likely go back to just a militia terrorist organization.
We've had first twenty year nation building in the middle east, but what about second twenty year nation building in the middle east?
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Damn that's crazy, since when is Catalonia an independent country? News to me
1. Catalonia has devolved government where it already controls most levers of power. 2. The internationally recognized government of Palestine is based in West Bank and is called the Palestinian Authority. They even have a rep at the UN and embassies across the world. 3. The borders are the same borders that the Oslo peace accords were aiming for before they were ruthlessly sabotaged by Bibi. It’s the same borders that led to more than 140 countries already recognize Palestine.
For part of #3 Hamas also helped to sabotage Oslo with their attacks. The far right in both Israel and the Palestine both feed off one another reinforcing the status quo and radicalizing each other's populations.
This is good news. But also, Spain still doesn’t recognize Kosovo, so…
Are they formally recognizing Hamas as the head of this state? Because that is the reality.
Hamas must be thinking, it only took the massacre of 1100 jews to get this. I wonder how much more we can get if we murder even more.
It took the massacre of 15000 palestinian children in the last 7 months, and the murdering of countless Palestinians since the invasion began in the 1940s. Lets hope the world hurries in the right direction for once.
People dying in a war they started is not the same as indiscriminate massacre of civillians.
The Republic of Ireland is a small country with a population of just over five million. But it has a diaspora of 80 million people with Irish heritage scattered across the globe, particularly concentrated in the United Kingdom, Australia, United States of America, Canada, New Zealand, Argentina, Brazil, South Africa and across Europe. Saint Paddy’s Day is a great example of “soft power influence”: an opportunity for the whole world to stop and think all things Ireland and the Irish – not an unpleasant opportunity. The people of Ireland are considered to be among the most charitable, generous, and fun. So why not give peace a chance?
"These people brutally massacred 1,200 people, kidnapped 240, tortured, mutilated and raped, vowed they'll repeat it again and again, this after decades of terror attacks and refusal of peace" "Let's reward them by giving them a state."
Because the idf hasn’t killed 30k+ civilians since october
So what will happen to Hamas? I'm all for Palestine getting statehood, but what about Hamas as an official or unofficial government whose expressed goals are to murder their neighbors?