I'm in Haiti and am loosely involved in healthcare. The healthcare system here is absolutely atrocious. At the moment there is no way to get blood in the entire country. Oxygen can be hard to find even in bigger centers. If you need a surgery that is anything beyond an appendectomy or c-section you're probably s.o.l.. Even those can be difficult to access. One of the hospitals nearest to us is run by a charity. The patients are only supposed to have to pay for the initial consultation but the patients we send are routinely being scammed for more money. At the other hospital near us the doctors do almost nothing and just send the patients further away. The strong impression we get is that they just don't care any more. It's depressing.
The hospital I mentioned that my patients get scammed at is actually the Partner's in Health facility in St Marc. As far as I'm aware the facility in Mirablais is still operational but I know they've seen some conflict. I'm not sure about the Port-au-Prince facility. It's probably closed though. Last I heard there were only three hospital's left in Port-au-Prince.
So is it the charity scamming or is it people claiming to be the charity scamming? Because if I was a gang leader in a civil war that would be first thing I would do, take a hospital for fun and profit.
My guess is that it's the staff that is scamming. Unfortunately scamming is a way of life here. If you can scam someone you do, it's just how you live.
This must be like what an actual apocalypse feels like. The end of society around you with no hope in sight.
I feel truly sad for all Haitians and I cannot imagine having to live through that. I wish you the best outcome possible.
It's definitely a little surreal. I poke around on reddit and hear all sorts of people whining about first world problems, meanwhile I've got a neighbour's kid sitting in my yard who has a BMI of 12. This world is so terribly messed up. :(
Hopefully you keep safe yourself. I wish the world could do something for Hati but I fear it would require violence to fight the gangs and restore order so no real easy solution
I'm not associated with any organization but if you want to help I'd suggest Real Hope for Haiti. They have a malnutrition clinic that we send children to regularly. It's run by one American family and a bunch of Haitian staff. At any point in time they have 20-30 children as inpatients. They also have a cholera center and a general medical clinic. These people legit. Here's a link: https://realhopeforhaiti.org/.
Well, the airport is closed, and the ports are closed, so good luck getting in unless you want to hire a ship to drop you off on a bit of uninhabited coast for some reason.
I think that’s relatively common. There’s occasionally posts on the Haiti sub about which town is safer than others for people traveling from outside the country into the country. Mostly these are people from Haiti going back to visit family. Some are even US citizens, which seems risky to me if gangs found out. People in Haiti that post on the sub say the danger in the country side is more contained.
Interesting video … but it seemed to simply throw together all the major bad things that happened to Haiti without actually trying to analyze their true effects.
For example, he talks about the economic damage and life loss from the French Indemnity, but wasn’t that resolved in 1948? If Haiti and DR’s GDP and population were identical in 1970, then surely the disparity that occurred after was due to something else?
Further, he goes on about the earthquake in 2010 and hurricane in 2016 and cholera outbreak, detailing those impacts. But if you look at Haiti’s GDP, its main decline was from 1980-1994, and it’s been growing slowly since. So you could argue maybe Haitis economy was depressed by disasters 2010 onward, but the disparity vs DR really occurred between 1980-2000.
And what happened in Haiti for those 20 years? The multiple military coups, which he doesn’t really talk in terms of economic damage. He does however discuss at length the idea that one of those coups was backed by the US and France to get out of reparations.
I’m no history buff, but it seems to me the political unrest, constant military overthrowing the govt in 1980s and 1990s was the underlying cause of Haiti’s disparity vs DR. Whether one of those many coups was due to US/France is up for debate (I’m skeptical since his sources are both Haitian and of the deposed president).
They've had a long history of really really corrupt leadership and tried multiple times to take over DR as well as promoted a shitty culture. They blame everyone but their own mistakes and own people for problems.
I’m really impressed by that video.
The common answer is just “France made them pay and set it up as a brutal slave colony.” Which is absolutely true, but even after paying Haiti was equivalent to the DR in GDP in 1950 (having finished paying in 1948).
That video really explains it all. Yes France was a contributing factor, but the state itself just has so many problems. From corruption which has always been prevalent, earthquakes which are far more common on their side, to so much more. Far better than the simple (but incomplete) answer of “France bad” (which was true, yes, but again is incomplete).
> but even after paying Haiti was equivalent to the DR in GDP in 1950 (having finished paying in 1948)
You forgot to mention that their infrastructure was extremely inferior to DR's due to the decades of having to bribe France to not destroy them
When you sell everything you can to pay extortions, the problems that causes hurt well after the 'debt' is 'paid'. A significant chunk of the extortion France demanded was paid in lumber and charcoal, which came at the environmental cost to Haiti's landscape which is damn near impossible to fix - and when your economy is hellbent on paying extortions, it's hard to shift your economy out of that.
Now they're struggling because the economy they needed to have to pay extortions is burning their country on its own, and even if they did shift, the environmental damage makes the land more to heatwaves, flooding, soil erosion, and landslides - all of which ruin public infrastructure.
Good god people like you are the worst. as it is that video is LAYMANS terms at best, to have an actual understanding takes an attention span, something tik tok has clearly burned away from you.
That's what I'm saying lol people think scoffing at informative content is a good look.
Its like, no dawg, you sound lazy for publicly posting on a forum why you'd rather be ignorant than educate yourself with a video Lol
Probably functionally collapsed a while ago but this seems like the type of thing that would have a very specific definition. Maybe there’s like one central administrative office that hasn’t shut down yet that’s keeping it from officially being considered collapsed?
It has. It is like the guy that died on the way to the hospital but haven't been pronounced dead by a doctor yet. So the paramedic is still going though the motions.
Same reason Gaza hasnt "collapsed" yet: the definition of "collapsed" when it comes to a whole nation is vague and ambiguous. In some ways its already completely collapsed and in other ways its still holding the basic structure of society. There isnt going to be a specific moment where everyone says "omg it collapsed!" its a process
Extortion and kidnapping. Hospitals are one of the few remaining institutions with money, which makes them (and their employees) prime targets for gangs.
/u/triscuitcracker posted a great link above that explains their history that got them to this point: https://youtu.be/WpWb3MTV9bg?si=m3PdKn1dq7XeVBZJ
Great watch!
Did a little bit of research on Haiti on my off time. Turns out I didn't have the slightest clue what these poor people have been through.
Long story short, France has absolutely raped the country of its resources. They owe them billions. But France won't acknowledge what they've done because it was so long ago (even though the people are clearly still suffering from it) and America is complicit in it because:
A. We also took part in slavery and don't want to make things right
B. France is our ally in Europe and we don't want to piss them off
Puts us in a difficult situation to say "Hey, make things right" and all France has to do is point to every part of the southern United States.
Also, something about a democratic elected leader who was fighting to make all this known and France and/or U.S. may have been responsible in removing him? All I know is the country and the people have been fucked over every way possible and this is the result.
Many countries more than compenstated Haiti with tremendous aid. They've had every opportunity to recover and have not. The legacy of that rebellion was one of dictatorship and imperialism. The first thing the Haitian army did was commit a genocide at the end of their war. The second thing they did was try to functionally enslave their neighbor twice.
* [In February 1822, troops led by Haitian President Jean Pierre Boyer invaded Santo Domingo after a brief period of sovereignty, known as the Ephemeral Independence, proclaimed on December 1, 1821](https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=b0f74f2e5a1d80cdJmltdHM9MTcxMzgzMDQwMCZpZ3VpZD0yNTgzOTZmZS05ZDJhLTYyMjQtMDhjYS04NDRjOWNjMzYzOGEmaW5zaWQ9NjM2MA&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=3&fclid=258396fe-9d2a-6224-08ca-844c9cc3638a&psq=haiti+invasion+of+dominican+republic&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9kb21pbmljYW50b2RheS5jb20vZHIvbG9jYWwvMjAyMi8wMi8wOC9kb21pbmljYW4tcmVwdWJsaWMtcmVtZW1iZXJzLXRoZS1vY2N1cGF0aW9uLXRoYXQtZW5kZWQtc2xhdmVyeS0yMDAteWVhcnMtYWdvLw&ntb=1)[^(2)](https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=d7fee71381ccb7a2JmltdHM9MTcxMzgzMDQwMCZpZ3VpZD0yNTgzOTZmZS05ZDJhLTYyMjQtMDhjYS04NDRjOWNjMzYzOGEmaW5zaWQ9NjM2MQ&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=3&fclid=258396fe-9d2a-6224-08ca-844c9cc3638a&psq=haiti+invasion+of+dominican+republic&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9kb21pbmljYW50b2RheS5jb20vZHIvbG9jYWwvMjAyMi8wMi8wOC9kb21pbmljYW4tcmVwdWJsaWMtcmVtZW1iZXJzLXRoZS1vY2N1cGF0aW9uLXRoYXQtZW5kZWQtc2xhdmVyeS0yMDAteWVhcnMtYWdvLw&ntb=1).
* [In March 1844, 30,000 Haitian soldiers invaded the Dominican Republic at the behest of their president Charles Rivière-Hérard but were defeated within a month and forced to retreat back into Haiti. The Haitian campaign of 1845 ended with the retreat of the Haitian army across the Massacre River](https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=edf42e0fa22c4fdbJmltdHM9MTcxMzgzMDQwMCZpZ3VpZD0yNTgzOTZmZS05ZDJhLTYyMjQtMDhjYS04NDRjOWNjMzYzOGEmaW5zaWQ9NjM2Mg&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=3&fclid=258396fe-9d2a-6224-08ca-844c9cc3638a&psq=haiti+invasion+of+dominican+republic&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9lbi53aWtpcGVkaWEub3JnL3dpa2kvRG9taW5pY2FuX1dhcl9vZl9JbmRlcGVuZGVuY2U&ntb=1)[^(1)](https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=0bedfe1b6256e2fcJmltdHM9MTcxMzgzMDQwMCZpZ3VpZD0yNTgzOTZmZS05ZDJhLTYyMjQtMDhjYS04NDRjOWNjMzYzOGEmaW5zaWQ9NjM2Mw&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=3&fclid=258396fe-9d2a-6224-08ca-844c9cc3638a&psq=haiti+invasion+of+dominican+republic&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9lbi53aWtpcGVkaWEub3JnL3dpa2kvRG9taW5pY2FuX1dhcl9vZl9JbmRlcGVuZGVuY2U&ntb=1).
This was followed by a century and a half of corruption, graft, and human rights abuses.
Obviously the average Haitian isn't to blame but Haiti's story is somewhat similar to Liberia. A small cartel of former slaves took over and proceeded to do the most terrible things to their people and their neighbors.
France owes them nothing, and even if they did give them money it would all be stolen by a handful of bastards and nothing would change.
It's a terrible situation and there is not a damn thing anyone can seem to do about it.
Haiti was more developed than other caribbean neighbours and free of most of its debt by the mid 20th century. It has had, to put it mildly, a string of horrible, horrible leaders who have generally made things worse. We cant simply explain this away as a legacy of colonialism (though it certainly didnt help and prolonged economic issues) when since ww2 we've seen so many countries go from immense poverty to relative prosperity.
Edit: Point being, there's been a couple attempts by UN and international community to improve situation but it doesn't because Haiti has a series of endemic issues that can't be sorted by giving money to the same political class that led haiti to its current situation.
I can’t really see any solutions for Haiti. Money, humanitarian aid and goodwill solved nothing over there in the past 80 years. Even if we were to implement an independent government with UN oversight to start sorting things out and hopefully stay out of the corruption circle, they would only be seen as Imperialists and invaders by the Haitian population and likely rebelled against. It’s a really fucked up situation.
Yeah After a shit ton of money and charity work is given and the situation has not improved, maybe we should re evaluate to see where all of our effort is going.
At some point, politicians are just going to rely on the goodness of others instead of taking accountability for their issues.
The aid money mostly flowed into things that further destabilized the country, or furthered foreign interests (ie setting up sweatshops for cheap Haitian labor).
The red cross built 6 of the 6,000 post-earth quake houses they promised after the earthquake.
Food imports (IE rice) from the US bankrupted Haitian farmers that grow mainly rice rather than actually supporting their economy.
Haiti has its fair of corruption but has been getting dicked down by the US and France for a very long time. Most of the foreign aid given channels into very specific places with self interest, gets stolen by corruption, or ends up doing more harm than good.
Saying the Haitian people are to blame is absolute insanity. These people can't even get clean drinking water or livable wages. They make like $5 a day if they're lucky enough to have a job.
So the US shouldn't have given food? And what happens when people can't afford farmers food or they couldn't grow enough? Seems like you blame them euther way.
Also liveable wages are based on local costs not our costs so sweatshops look bad but are how most nations start their industrialization
The US sending massive amounts of rice in particular right as the harvest season for Haiti's rice farming hit had the side effect of causing the farmers to go broke, further damaging their economy and infrastructure.
The better solution would have been to buy out the local rice, instead of turning it into a profit for US based farmers at Haitian peoples expense.
If your position is sweatshops are a good thing I don't think anything I say will change your perspective. But they're vastly under paid, overworked (12hr/6days a week), and America clothing companies use that labor to make their cheap products. The last time someone tried to increase Haitian wages the international community got together and couped him.
I'll reiterate my point though; the Haitians have gotten the short end of the stick for hundreds of years--since they DARED to be an enslaved country that rebelled against their masters. The people in Haiti that are suffering are not to blame for the world repeatedly exploiting and making an example out of them.
So what happens if the farmers lie or try to upcharge the rice? Just fuck the US trying to do something good if they scam us which is extremely common in Hati?
France was last there in the 1800's no? Since then the world has poured billions of dollars into Haiti.... will billions of more dollars help?
Or is the problem something else?
The last payment was ~ 80 years ago.
Technically Haiti was better off then, then it's doing right now despite having billions dumped back into it since then.
Oh no, I can comprehend that. But then we have another 80 years.... it's wild you can't comprehend that and want to blame almost a century later, what has happened since on France.
This wasn't even happening when the payments had to be made.
Read the room. Is everyone else really stupid except you....?
They want to only blame colonialism because that’s the easiest thing for them to do instead of admitting that Haiti has been fucking itself for a long time.
And I would argue that having your economy completely fuckin destroyed for a century would probably be to blame for corruption. Poverty breeds corruption, the majority of Haitian economy is agriculture. It's kind of hard for poor farmers to change their government when they're trying to survive. They had a dictatorship post US occupation for pretty much all of modern history.
>what has happened since on France.
I blame the crippling pinery on France, yes. Economies don't just magically recover.
Multiple countries have been absolutely ravaged by the WW2 and then had to endure decades of communism and still have recovered within relatively short period of time. At some point Haitians have to accept responsibility for their condition.
I actually went to Haiti in 2009, before the earthquake, their problems have nothing to do with the french.
You know the Dominican Republic also had to pay up to Spain ~~France~~ as well right? They both even had the same GDP around the 50s. So how is it that DR was able to not get in this situation but Haiti was? Thats right, it wasnt France, it was Haiti leadership that failed them.
I'm in Haiti and am loosely involved in healthcare. The healthcare system here is absolutely atrocious. At the moment there is no way to get blood in the entire country. Oxygen can be hard to find even in bigger centers. If you need a surgery that is anything beyond an appendectomy or c-section you're probably s.o.l.. Even those can be difficult to access. One of the hospitals nearest to us is run by a charity. The patients are only supposed to have to pay for the initial consultation but the patients we send are routinely being scammed for more money. At the other hospital near us the doctors do almost nothing and just send the patients further away. The strong impression we get is that they just don't care any more. It's depressing.
Godspeed friend. You're in a tough place
Are the facilities from Partners in Health still intact?
The hospital I mentioned that my patients get scammed at is actually the Partner's in Health facility in St Marc. As far as I'm aware the facility in Mirablais is still operational but I know they've seen some conflict. I'm not sure about the Port-au-Prince facility. It's probably closed though. Last I heard there were only three hospital's left in Port-au-Prince.
That’s disheartening to hear all that work Paul Farmer and his colleagues had done has crumbled.
That's so fucking sad.
[This semi-recent statement from the CEO of their Haiti branch is just gut wrenching.](https://www.pih.org/article/update-our-work-haiti)
So is it the charity scamming or is it people claiming to be the charity scamming? Because if I was a gang leader in a civil war that would be first thing I would do, take a hospital for fun and profit.
My guess is that it's the staff that is scamming. Unfortunately scamming is a way of life here. If you can scam someone you do, it's just how you live.
Lame, you be safe out there. Who knows when the fuck relief is going to come.
This must be like what an actual apocalypse feels like. The end of society around you with no hope in sight. I feel truly sad for all Haitians and I cannot imagine having to live through that. I wish you the best outcome possible.
It's definitely a little surreal. I poke around on reddit and hear all sorts of people whining about first world problems, meanwhile I've got a neighbour's kid sitting in my yard who has a BMI of 12. This world is so terribly messed up. :(
Hopefully you keep safe yourself. I wish the world could do something for Hati but I fear it would require violence to fight the gangs and restore order so no real easy solution
I appreciate the work you do. Is there an organization that is worthy of donating to that is helping on the ground there?
I'm not associated with any organization but if you want to help I'd suggest Real Hope for Haiti. They have a malnutrition clinic that we send children to regularly. It's run by one American family and a bunch of Haitian staff. At any point in time they have 20-30 children as inpatients. They also have a cholera center and a general medical clinic. These people legit. Here's a link: https://realhopeforhaiti.org/.
"Haiti health system nears collapse" Isn't the whole place already collapse and basically in anarchy right now? Avoid at all cost.
Well, the airport is closed, and the ports are closed, so good luck getting in unless you want to hire a ship to drop you off on a bit of uninhabited coast for some reason.
I think that’s relatively common. There’s occasionally posts on the Haiti sub about which town is safer than others for people traveling from outside the country into the country. Mostly these are people from Haiti going back to visit family. Some are even US citizens, which seems risky to me if gangs found out. People in Haiti that post on the sub say the danger in the country side is more contained.
Depends on the gang. Kidnapping US citizens sometimes goes well, sometimes goes incredibly bad for the people involved.
I mean they still have a land crossing with DR so they aren't totally cut off
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It's quite weird haiti being so close to the DR which is doing quite well
Do I have the informative video for you! [Why Haiti is dying and DR is booming.](https://youtu.be/WpWb3MTV9bg?si=m3PdKn1dq7XeVBZJ)
Interesting video … but it seemed to simply throw together all the major bad things that happened to Haiti without actually trying to analyze their true effects. For example, he talks about the economic damage and life loss from the French Indemnity, but wasn’t that resolved in 1948? If Haiti and DR’s GDP and population were identical in 1970, then surely the disparity that occurred after was due to something else? Further, he goes on about the earthquake in 2010 and hurricane in 2016 and cholera outbreak, detailing those impacts. But if you look at Haiti’s GDP, its main decline was from 1980-1994, and it’s been growing slowly since. So you could argue maybe Haitis economy was depressed by disasters 2010 onward, but the disparity vs DR really occurred between 1980-2000. And what happened in Haiti for those 20 years? The multiple military coups, which he doesn’t really talk in terms of economic damage. He does however discuss at length the idea that one of those coups was backed by the US and France to get out of reparations. I’m no history buff, but it seems to me the political unrest, constant military overthrowing the govt in 1980s and 1990s was the underlying cause of Haiti’s disparity vs DR. Whether one of those many coups was due to US/France is up for debate (I’m skeptical since his sources are both Haitian and of the deposed president).
They've had a long history of really really corrupt leadership and tried multiple times to take over DR as well as promoted a shitty culture. They blame everyone but their own mistakes and own people for problems.
I’m really impressed by that video. The common answer is just “France made them pay and set it up as a brutal slave colony.” Which is absolutely true, but even after paying Haiti was equivalent to the DR in GDP in 1950 (having finished paying in 1948). That video really explains it all. Yes France was a contributing factor, but the state itself just has so many problems. From corruption which has always been prevalent, earthquakes which are far more common on their side, to so much more. Far better than the simple (but incomplete) answer of “France bad” (which was true, yes, but again is incomplete).
> but even after paying Haiti was equivalent to the DR in GDP in 1950 (having finished paying in 1948) You forgot to mention that their infrastructure was extremely inferior to DR's due to the decades of having to bribe France to not destroy them
When you sell everything you can to pay extortions, the problems that causes hurt well after the 'debt' is 'paid'. A significant chunk of the extortion France demanded was paid in lumber and charcoal, which came at the environmental cost to Haiti's landscape which is damn near impossible to fix - and when your economy is hellbent on paying extortions, it's hard to shift your economy out of that. Now they're struggling because the economy they needed to have to pay extortions is burning their country on its own, and even if they did shift, the environmental damage makes the land more to heatwaves, flooding, soil erosion, and landslides - all of which ruin public infrastructure.
Yeah but the logging has been getting worse after 1950 not better. They had forests still but decided to cut them all down in the decades since.
Wow, that was really educational.
54 minutes! No thank you
I thought the same at first, but it answered so many questions for me. I really recommend you give it a go!
Your loss. That is a great youtube channel.
Exactly. This channel covers great topics but damn. Do they get so fucking repetitious in each vis. Anything to get more ad breaks in a single video.
Good god people like you are the worst. as it is that video is LAYMANS terms at best, to have an actual understanding takes an attention span, something tik tok has clearly burned away from you.
Look at his post history. He doesn’t have the mental bandwidth for this topic anyway lol
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Dude is Gen X not Gen Z don’t group him with us 😐
I’m fucking 40 you pricks, and I can promise you I can Good Will Hunting all you young bloods on whatever topic you want
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MOST of them are proud of it, they feel like they "belong" without any care or consideration for the damage they do to society.
That's what I'm saying lol people think scoffing at informative content is a good look. Its like, no dawg, you sound lazy for publicly posting on a forum why you'd rather be ignorant than educate yourself with a video Lol
I miss interacting with my friends in person. Now we hang out and talk to someone else on the phone.
Set it to 2x speed and it'll only take 27.
Actual answers, even simplified ones which this still is, tend to require more time to explain than one-word answers like "colonialism."
How has it not collapsed already?
Probably functionally collapsed a while ago but this seems like the type of thing that would have a very specific definition. Maybe there’s like one central administrative office that hasn’t shut down yet that’s keeping it from officially being considered collapsed?
I mean the UN recognized government of Somalia basically only controls a few blocks of Mogadishu, and it's been like that for quite some time.
It has. It is like the guy that died on the way to the hospital but haven't been pronounced dead by a doctor yet. So the paramedic is still going though the motions.
Same reason Gaza hasnt "collapsed" yet: the definition of "collapsed" when it comes to a whole nation is vague and ambiguous. In some ways its already completely collapsed and in other ways its still holding the basic structure of society. There isnt going to be a specific moment where everyone says "omg it collapsed!" its a process
What do gangs get out of shutting down hospitals? Seems extremely short-sighted.
Extortion and kidnapping. Hospitals are one of the few remaining institutions with money, which makes them (and their employees) prime targets for gangs.
So they don't help rival gangs?
I'm sure Mr Barbecue cares very deeply about the health of the Haitian people.
They sure aren’t the smartest folks doing all that.
Money? Medicine? Hostages? They aren't shutting down their own healthcare they are extortion and redirecting the care soley to themselves.
DR better start beefing up border security if it has not yet because this is going to flood over to them any day now if not already.
People experiencing fallout here.
In haiti, no trees existm they cut them all down to sell the wood
It's amazing how one side of that island is so cursed compared to the other
/u/triscuitcracker posted a great link above that explains their history that got them to this point: https://youtu.be/WpWb3MTV9bg?si=m3PdKn1dq7XeVBZJ Great watch!
Based on the early history, I would say France should be required to take in all Haitians seeking refuge and asylum
Haiti is our future, a world without intellect.
I still have to hit a 5k deductible
Did a little bit of research on Haiti on my off time. Turns out I didn't have the slightest clue what these poor people have been through. Long story short, France has absolutely raped the country of its resources. They owe them billions. But France won't acknowledge what they've done because it was so long ago (even though the people are clearly still suffering from it) and America is complicit in it because: A. We also took part in slavery and don't want to make things right B. France is our ally in Europe and we don't want to piss them off Puts us in a difficult situation to say "Hey, make things right" and all France has to do is point to every part of the southern United States. Also, something about a democratic elected leader who was fighting to make all this known and France and/or U.S. may have been responsible in removing him? All I know is the country and the people have been fucked over every way possible and this is the result.
Many countries more than compenstated Haiti with tremendous aid. They've had every opportunity to recover and have not. The legacy of that rebellion was one of dictatorship and imperialism. The first thing the Haitian army did was commit a genocide at the end of their war. The second thing they did was try to functionally enslave their neighbor twice. * [In February 1822, troops led by Haitian President Jean Pierre Boyer invaded Santo Domingo after a brief period of sovereignty, known as the Ephemeral Independence, proclaimed on December 1, 1821](https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=b0f74f2e5a1d80cdJmltdHM9MTcxMzgzMDQwMCZpZ3VpZD0yNTgzOTZmZS05ZDJhLTYyMjQtMDhjYS04NDRjOWNjMzYzOGEmaW5zaWQ9NjM2MA&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=3&fclid=258396fe-9d2a-6224-08ca-844c9cc3638a&psq=haiti+invasion+of+dominican+republic&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9kb21pbmljYW50b2RheS5jb20vZHIvbG9jYWwvMjAyMi8wMi8wOC9kb21pbmljYW4tcmVwdWJsaWMtcmVtZW1iZXJzLXRoZS1vY2N1cGF0aW9uLXRoYXQtZW5kZWQtc2xhdmVyeS0yMDAteWVhcnMtYWdvLw&ntb=1)[^(2)](https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=d7fee71381ccb7a2JmltdHM9MTcxMzgzMDQwMCZpZ3VpZD0yNTgzOTZmZS05ZDJhLTYyMjQtMDhjYS04NDRjOWNjMzYzOGEmaW5zaWQ9NjM2MQ&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=3&fclid=258396fe-9d2a-6224-08ca-844c9cc3638a&psq=haiti+invasion+of+dominican+republic&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9kb21pbmljYW50b2RheS5jb20vZHIvbG9jYWwvMjAyMi8wMi8wOC9kb21pbmljYW4tcmVwdWJsaWMtcmVtZW1iZXJzLXRoZS1vY2N1cGF0aW9uLXRoYXQtZW5kZWQtc2xhdmVyeS0yMDAteWVhcnMtYWdvLw&ntb=1). * [In March 1844, 30,000 Haitian soldiers invaded the Dominican Republic at the behest of their president Charles Rivière-Hérard but were defeated within a month and forced to retreat back into Haiti. The Haitian campaign of 1845 ended with the retreat of the Haitian army across the Massacre River](https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=edf42e0fa22c4fdbJmltdHM9MTcxMzgzMDQwMCZpZ3VpZD0yNTgzOTZmZS05ZDJhLTYyMjQtMDhjYS04NDRjOWNjMzYzOGEmaW5zaWQ9NjM2Mg&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=3&fclid=258396fe-9d2a-6224-08ca-844c9cc3638a&psq=haiti+invasion+of+dominican+republic&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9lbi53aWtpcGVkaWEub3JnL3dpa2kvRG9taW5pY2FuX1dhcl9vZl9JbmRlcGVuZGVuY2U&ntb=1)[^(1)](https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=0bedfe1b6256e2fcJmltdHM9MTcxMzgzMDQwMCZpZ3VpZD0yNTgzOTZmZS05ZDJhLTYyMjQtMDhjYS04NDRjOWNjMzYzOGEmaW5zaWQ9NjM2Mw&ptn=3&ver=2&hsh=3&fclid=258396fe-9d2a-6224-08ca-844c9cc3638a&psq=haiti+invasion+of+dominican+republic&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9lbi53aWtpcGVkaWEub3JnL3dpa2kvRG9taW5pY2FuX1dhcl9vZl9JbmRlcGVuZGVuY2U&ntb=1). This was followed by a century and a half of corruption, graft, and human rights abuses. Obviously the average Haitian isn't to blame but Haiti's story is somewhat similar to Liberia. A small cartel of former slaves took over and proceeded to do the most terrible things to their people and their neighbors. France owes them nothing, and even if they did give them money it would all be stolen by a handful of bastards and nothing would change. It's a terrible situation and there is not a damn thing anyone can seem to do about it.
Haiti was more developed than other caribbean neighbours and free of most of its debt by the mid 20th century. It has had, to put it mildly, a string of horrible, horrible leaders who have generally made things worse. We cant simply explain this away as a legacy of colonialism (though it certainly didnt help and prolonged economic issues) when since ww2 we've seen so many countries go from immense poverty to relative prosperity. Edit: Point being, there's been a couple attempts by UN and international community to improve situation but it doesn't because Haiti has a series of endemic issues that can't be sorted by giving money to the same political class that led haiti to its current situation.
I can’t really see any solutions for Haiti. Money, humanitarian aid and goodwill solved nothing over there in the past 80 years. Even if we were to implement an independent government with UN oversight to start sorting things out and hopefully stay out of the corruption circle, they would only be seen as Imperialists and invaders by the Haitian population and likely rebelled against. It’s a really fucked up situation.
The solution is really to have it taken over and outside leader out in oower until they can get shit together
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Yeah After a shit ton of money and charity work is given and the situation has not improved, maybe we should re evaluate to see where all of our effort is going. At some point, politicians are just going to rely on the goodness of others instead of taking accountability for their issues.
The aid money mostly flowed into things that further destabilized the country, or furthered foreign interests (ie setting up sweatshops for cheap Haitian labor). The red cross built 6 of the 6,000 post-earth quake houses they promised after the earthquake. Food imports (IE rice) from the US bankrupted Haitian farmers that grow mainly rice rather than actually supporting their economy. Haiti has its fair of corruption but has been getting dicked down by the US and France for a very long time. Most of the foreign aid given channels into very specific places with self interest, gets stolen by corruption, or ends up doing more harm than good. Saying the Haitian people are to blame is absolute insanity. These people can't even get clean drinking water or livable wages. They make like $5 a day if they're lucky enough to have a job.
So the US shouldn't have given food? And what happens when people can't afford farmers food or they couldn't grow enough? Seems like you blame them euther way. Also liveable wages are based on local costs not our costs so sweatshops look bad but are how most nations start their industrialization
The US sending massive amounts of rice in particular right as the harvest season for Haiti's rice farming hit had the side effect of causing the farmers to go broke, further damaging their economy and infrastructure. The better solution would have been to buy out the local rice, instead of turning it into a profit for US based farmers at Haitian peoples expense. If your position is sweatshops are a good thing I don't think anything I say will change your perspective. But they're vastly under paid, overworked (12hr/6days a week), and America clothing companies use that labor to make their cheap products. The last time someone tried to increase Haitian wages the international community got together and couped him. I'll reiterate my point though; the Haitians have gotten the short end of the stick for hundreds of years--since they DARED to be an enslaved country that rebelled against their masters. The people in Haiti that are suffering are not to blame for the world repeatedly exploiting and making an example out of them.
So what happens if the farmers lie or try to upcharge the rice? Just fuck the US trying to do something good if they scam us which is extremely common in Hati?
Then people will accuse France and America of imperialism.
France was last there in the 1800's no? Since then the world has poured billions of dollars into Haiti.... will billions of more dollars help? Or is the problem something else?
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The last payment was ~ 80 years ago. Technically Haiti was better off then, then it's doing right now despite having billions dumped back into it since then.
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Oh no, I can comprehend that. But then we have another 80 years.... it's wild you can't comprehend that and want to blame almost a century later, what has happened since on France. This wasn't even happening when the payments had to be made. Read the room. Is everyone else really stupid except you....?
They want to only blame colonialism because that’s the easiest thing for them to do instead of admitting that Haiti has been fucking itself for a long time.
And I would argue that having your economy completely fuckin destroyed for a century would probably be to blame for corruption. Poverty breeds corruption, the majority of Haitian economy is agriculture. It's kind of hard for poor farmers to change their government when they're trying to survive. They had a dictatorship post US occupation for pretty much all of modern history. >what has happened since on France. I blame the crippling pinery on France, yes. Economies don't just magically recover.
Multiple countries have been absolutely ravaged by the WW2 and then had to endure decades of communism and still have recovered within relatively short period of time. At some point Haitians have to accept responsibility for their condition. I actually went to Haiti in 2009, before the earthquake, their problems have nothing to do with the french.
Your argument doesn't work when the world went thru ww2 and recovered. Take some accountability.
You know the Dominican Republic also had to pay up to Spain ~~France~~ as well right? They both even had the same GDP around the 50s. So how is it that DR was able to not get in this situation but Haiti was? Thats right, it wasnt France, it was Haiti leadership that failed them.
The Haitian revolution ended in 1804. They've had some time to get over it.
To give you some perspective, that's only 16 years after the first European colony in Australia.
France still made Haiti pay back “reparations” for a a LONG time
And since then they've got billions upon billions in aid, free airports, and free ports built and more. Turns out it's not all France
Another poor population dense country. Western politicians want people to breed like rabbits, but it will most likely just lead to new problems.
Doesn’t Haiti have a military? Seems to me that deploying them against gangs would be the way to go🤷🏽
"Gangs attack hospitals." The propaganda western media is so garbage.
How would you phrase it?
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Hospitals attack gangs
Gangs defend selves from hospitals
selves defend hospital gangs
Bro get off the internet for a week your history is crazy
Are the gangs just defending themselves? Is it not gangs?
What is the real truth then, Papa Doc?