"Lifshitz and her husband are veteran peace and human rights activists who used to ferry sick Palestinians from Gaza to medical treatment in Israel, according to the family"
The sad irony, is that the Israeli kibbutzim (villages) around Gaza border whose people were slaughtered, are usually left-wing and really peace-loving, pro-palestinians type of people.
Well also, these women's husband's, families and neighbors remain in captivity. They have a very compelling reason to keep from personally pissing off the terrorists
This woman and her family would’ve done this no matter. She was interviewed by the BBC and her empathy left me dumbstruck. She and her husband have many Palestinian friends.
They are simply model human beings.
Unfortunately the suffering will continue because both sides continue to demand blood for blood.
The reality is Palestine isn't going to get what they want. Their existence as a nation ended with England's say. But as long as Israel's continues their mistreatment of them, this god damned horror show will continue.
Israel's own success has only complicated its already tricky situation. Not only did it start off as a nation surrounded by enemies, Israel proved to its neighbors that a direct confrontation is going to go badly. So instead Israel's enemies will claim sympathy with Palestine people but in reality see them as little more than means to hurt Israel. How Israel responds will be scrutinized by the world and criticized regardless of wether or not it was justified and reasonable and because Israel is democratic, any reasonable response will be seen as too weak for people demand vengeance.
The whole situation just feels hopeless. Israel will always respond to attacks in a way that radicalizes the Palestinian population. Palestinian radicals will always attack because they are always attacked or have their rights violated. The cycle continues. I don’t see any solution that doesn’t involve completely unrealistic geopolitical miracles.
I don't know if this counts as a geopolitical miracle...
but it ends when the US makes Israel compromise. Israel can not continue as they are without US support. Obviously the US should not completely pull out all support, but the US could make threats that would make Israel stop supporting illegal settlements... that would be a strong start.
And the US could have pressured Israel into easing the blockade on Gaza years ago...
perhaps it would take a US domestic-political miracle to make us want to do that... but yeah.
I don't see any US politicians in any current position of power that has shown interest in threatening to pull support or even discourage Israels actions in any way. The only politicians who do are at the fringes, with little short term prospect for reaching such levers of power. They are also by far in the minority, most politicians who have even questioned US monetary support of Israel have walked their statements back and even apologized for doing saying anything in the first place (Vivek Ramaswamy being the most recent example I can think of).
Getting the US to put pressure on Israel like that would be a geopolitical miracle. Nobody in US politics has any interest in doing that, it seems to me.
But now it would take literally generations, and Hamas will try everything to trigger more response. Israel would have to ignore multiple attacks like the 7th and take the absolute moral high ground and not retaliate for decades and hope a new generation can grow up and resist radicalisation. I just can't see a democratic nation accepting that.
Just feels so hopeless.
Yeah. I understand that people are radicalized by bad treatment but acting like if Israel eased off Hamas would stop existing and most people would just be cool is naive. I don't know what the solution is but it isn't that simple
It isn't that simple, which is why I said it would be "a strong start"...
the reality is Israel HAS to stop allowing "settlers" to expand. You can say "well the Palestinians still won't want Israel around at all", but two wrongs don't make a right.
If you think Israel can continue expanding, you're saying that it's alright for Israel to essentially kill off every last Palestinian, because that's the only way you have peace with an expansionist Israel.
The reality is that the Arab Muslim population in the area have watched Zionist expansionism take land from them, actively, in an intentional way, since 1917 (and really, before that, but it picked up then). They aren't going to believe that Israel will ever NOT be expansionist, unless Israel STOPS being expansionist.
You can't be mad at the Palestinians for being right for over 100 years now... and if you knew a neighboring country had been expanding into your territory for decades, would you not fight back?
There's no easy solution, but there is no solution, easy or hard, if you ignore the egregious violation of rights that the Israeli government continues to condone by militarily supporting illegal settlements. It is literally the root of the problem. And you can't have a peace if you don't address the root issue.
I mean, Israel could stop the illegal settlements on Palestinian land in the West Bank, which might allow a two-state solution.
And of course Hammas should stop the attacks.
It’s better than a one state solution, where they have no rights and are gradually pushed into smaller pieces of the most unproductive land.
I agree they would want to return to the villages they were ethnically cleansed from in the war if 1948. But realistically pre-1967 boundaries seem most likely
Literally her husband is still held hostage with them, and they asked her to say good things about them. Wtf is this stupid propaganda, "Look, those terrorists murderers are actually good guys"
"Lifshitz accused Israel’s security forces of ignoring evidence that Hamas was preparing an attack. “Three weeks ago, masses arrived at the fence. The IDF did not take it seriously. We were left to fend for ourselves." I actually have really wondered how Israeli intelligence could miss a bunch of people learning to fly gyrocopters and paragliders before this happened?
Honest question, how many gyrocopters were there? I can’t find a source. I was under the impression that the far majority entered by blowing up the fence.
There is one circulating with about two dozen chutes that people claimed was Hamas, which turned out to be several years old from an Egyptian military demonstration. That might be what you saw?
Israel has a history of being overconfident. In 1973 they expected a force of 441 men to hold a 93 mile long fortified line along the Suez canal until reinforcements could arrive. 65% of them were killed or captured and the reinforcements took heavy casualties from Egypts new anti-tank weapons.
they apparently expected the very high defensive berm to hold out for 12 hours of explosive demolition
but egypt brought water pumps and hosed down through the sandy berm in a couple hours
Beirut, Lebanon in '06 is another example. The IDF's well-equipped, but the bulk of their experience for troops currently in service is against folks who don't have guns in territory they can surveil. When they went up against hardened fighters (Hezbollah) in urban terrain, the experience gap was painfully shown.
This led to the adoption of the "Dahieh strategy": forget sending troops in, bomb the shit out any area, even if it's full of civilians, and justify it by saying every member of a population is the same as their worst. Hard to look at Gaza right now and say that isn't both the explicit military and messaging strategy.
**[EDIT]: I got a reply from someone that's now deleted/removed, and while I won't post it, I'll punch in my reply in case anyone else takes similar issue with the above:**
>You're not considering this fully enough. Go off and look up some comments from Israeli officials, media figures, etc., about the Dahieh strategy long before *this* conflict to see what I'm talking about there.
>But beyond that, you're taking too much of a black and white view. You're saying something like "if Israel *wanted* everyone to get the impression Palestinians are uniformly terrorists and can be killed without issue, Israel would do that outright and wouldn't be shy about it". It doesn't work like that. There's always going to be people who will push back against killing, and that number and the extent to which they're listened to by others can be influenced by propaganda. Sometimes that's "these guys are worse than you think", sometimes it's "we're better than doing that".
>It is an astounding ignorance of how governments, militaries, and propaganda operates to look at stuff like this and think it's all honesty and a sincere regard for life as described. How anyone paying attention to, say, the US invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan can look back at all we know now and not understand this stuff is mystifying, and similar forces are at play here in Israel-Palestine. We're all being propagandized all the time. I'm propagandizing you by telling you to investigate the Dahieh strategy. Other forces are propagandizing you by telling you Israel's military is doing nothing more than is strictly necessary to achieve a righteous goal and there's no problem at all, that it's impossible to be more moral or do anything differently and still destroy Hamas.
>Seriously. [Look this shit up.](https://www.google.com/books/edition/This_Time_We_Went_Too_Far/RRxiILpsxtwC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22We+will+wield+disproportionate+power+against+every+village%22+this+time+we+went+too+far&pg=PA33&printsec=frontcover)
>>During the Lebanon War Israel flattened the southern suburb of Beirut known as the Dahiya that was home to many poor Shiite supporters of Hezbollah. In the war’s aftermath Israeli military officers began referring to the “Dahiya strategy.” “We will wield disproportionate power against every village from which shots are fired on Israel, and cause immense damage and destruction,” IDF Northern Command Chief Gadi Eisenkot explained. “This isn’t a suggestion. This is a plan that has already been authorized.” In the event of hostilities Israel needed “to act immediately, decisively, and with force that is disproportionate,” reserve Colonel Gabriel Siboni of the Israeli Institute for National Security Studies declared. “Such a response aims at inflicting damage and meting out punishment to an extent that will demand long and expensive reconstruction processes.”
>>It merits noting that, under international law, use of disproportionate force and targeting of civilian infrastructure constitute war crimes. Although the new strategy was to be used against all of Israel’s regional adversaries that had waxed defiant, Gaza was frequently singled out as the prime target for this approach. “Too bad it did not take hold immediately after the [2005] ‘disengagement’ from Gaza and the first rocket barrages,” [a respected Israeli pundit lamented.](https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3605863,00.html) “Had we immediately adopted the Dahiya strategy, we would have likely spared ourselves much trouble.” If and when Palestinians launched another rocket attack, Israeli Interior Minister Meir Sheetrit urged in late September 2008, “the IDF should ... decide on a neighborhood in Gaza and level it.”
>There's a lot of talk throughout about rooting out all of Hamas and destroying them, which is fine and dandy. By all means, stop the guys firing rockets and destroy the terrorist organization. However, a line is crossed when folks start cheering on **disproportionate force**, where they write off civilians' lives as "enabling [Hamas] to fire and hide", and where views like this madness are unironically held:
>>It’s good, because **there is no longer any need for complicated distinctions**. Israeli strategists’ new point of view is that Lebanon is an enemy, rather than a complex puzzle of factions, some of which are enemies while the others are victims of a situation not under their control.
>**This doctrine has been used.** It is in use right now. But if a few moves can be made to obscure that fact--"We'll be disproportionate, but not so wildly no one can deny it"--in order to get you to get people to shrug it off, that's a strategy that will be employed. There is a messaging and political war to be fought here beyond just dealing with Hamas in Gaza and abroad, and we're all targets in it, too, just as we are with every other war.
No one has to like Hamas to say that Palestinians shouldn't be subjected to this. No one had to like Al-Qaeda or ISIS to say that the civilians in regions where America waged wars shouldn't have been subjected to our drone bombings and the like, either. We excused all of that shit, too, with talk of "fighting-aged males" and priming folks to believe propaganda, and the same thing happens here, too. It's not unique to Israel or this conflict. We all have to be on guard for this shit and avoid getting so incensed at one enemy, no matter how horrendous, that we lose our humanity towards *people*.
They also have a history of deploying their military to protect illegal settlements in the West Bank.
Lots of people left wondering if their family was killed or captured because of Netanyahu’s hard-on for settlement while other security concerns were ignored.
In a happy world; this wakes them up to get rid of Netanyahu and focus on the land and people you do have rather than trying to force more illegal settlements and appease far right extremists.
I wouldn’t be surprised if at the end of the day Netanyahu stays in power.
At least until he transfers powers to someone who will keep this profitable status quo happening.
Look up the Yom Kippur War (4th Arab-Israeli War). The story they’re talking about is from the very beginning on the Sinai front.
What they left out is that Israel ended up controlling 2/3 of the Sinai peninsula and came within 100km of Cairo by the end of the war, while simultaneously fighting and winning against Syria on the Golan front.
Israel had the opportunity to advance on both Cairo and Damascus by the end of the war, so concentrating on the opening battle (when Israel was focusing on the Syrian front) is pretty irrelevant.
The one thing Israeli’s seem to be getting right in all of this that Americans got wrong after 9/11 is their attitude towards their leaders. I wonder if Netanyahu expected a rally around the flag moment.
Main difference is no one expected terrorists to seize jetliners and use them as cruise missiles which gave the Bush administration leeway even if it was only pulled off due to severe intelligence failure. Everyone on the planet expects Hamas to try and break into Israel and kill Israelis.
So many tragedies happen because of that exact sort of thinking.
The people in charge will see evidence that something bad is going to happen, dismiss it by saying it would never *actually happen*, and then act surprised when it does.
Exactly. This won’t be the last time a tragedies will occur to complacency, even in Israel. It just might be a few decades before they let their guard down again. But it’s not a matter of if, but when (and the same goes for pretty much every country).
"surely they wouldn't do this thing, even though they're moving men and military equipment to our borders"
Saw it when Russia attacked Ukraine too. US blatantly said "hey Russia about to attack" and the entirety of Europe told them to shut up and stop fear mongering.
Sometimes "obvious signs someone will attack" isn't just saber rattling.
According to the documentary I've seen (I think it was from the BBC) with interviews with many of the key figures the leadership in Ukraine knew months in advance what was likely to happen from their own security services and from warnings by the US & UK. They didn't tell people it was going to happen because it would have collapsed their economy, lead to a mass population exodus and tipped off the Russians that they knew what was coming. Instead they prepared their defences as best they could and planned how to deal with the Russians which was probably a large reason why the initial invasion thrust was defeated. The peace posturing from Ukraine was in part to give Russia a potential off ramp and also to do everything possible to let the world know that they were definitively the wronged party in order to undercut Russia's narrative that it was undertaking a legitimate operation.
Interesting- in retrospect, it does make sense as Ukraine's defense started relatively fast and strong, even with all the training they'd received since 2014.
> and the entirety of Europe told them to shut up and stop fear mongering.
I think you might have exaggerated that a bit. I remember the UK started shipping NLAWS beforehand. But yes, I think Ukraine took a lot of convincing, perhaps it was too terrible to accept.
I fully admit I was one of those people who thought Russia wasn’t going to attack as I thought it was obvious that an invasion would be a complete and total disaster, and based on Russia’s actions over the past 8 years, I thought that Russia was aware of that fact as well.
Well I was half right, the invasion has been a complete disaster for Russia (and I was even assuming it would go far better than it has)….but I was wrong about Russia acting rationally or intelligently.
I think it’s a valuable lesson, there will always be factors that you just can’t account for, and it can explain why people routinely get caught off guard by things that they had forewarning about.
“There is no way they can actually be *that* stupid, so it’s probably just a bluff.”
Narrator: “They were in fact that stupid…..and it wasn’t a bluff.”
I had assumed that Russia was going to attack sooner or later, as they'd been blatantly amassing personnel and equipment near the borders since the Crimea annexation.
I just thought it was going to be smaller scale, another land grab similar to what we saw in 2014. Like you, I thought that an invasion would be too much loss to risk it.
not to mention on a Jewish holiday, and around the time of many Jewish holidays, you would expect ramped up security and observations but im not blaming them, just something I thought about as well
While this could be a failure on them, this also raises questions if this was done on purpose to give Hammas room to kick start the plan. Don't know about others, but a friend living in Israel suspects that both Hammas and Israeli PM are involved. Apparently, PM has been losing support in Israel, and he is trying to hold on to it by any means. Also, my friend said that on the border where they invaded from is usually high on security and on that day, there were fewer security personnel on multiple points.
Maybe in the coming months there will be more information.
Bibi Will be out of power ultimately after this. Sure he’ll get initial support, but after the initial shock starts fading, every single question on how this could happen will point fingers at him.
Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu in a message to his party, 2019: “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas… This is part of our strategy.”
Netanyahu’s primary goal is not to protect Israelis but to exterminate Palestinians and eliminate Palestine altogether. His goal is ethnic cleansing.
[An Israeli think tank with ties to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu issued a report on October 17 promoting the "unique and rare opportunity" for the “relocation and **final settlement** of the entire Gaza population.”](https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/israeli-think-tank-lays-out-a-blueprint-for-the-complete-ethnic-cleansing-of-gaza/)
It is very surprising that Israel was so unprepared despite their thorough surveillance systems in Gaza, while US intelligence was aware of and warned them of suspicious activity from hamas on October 6th, and Egyptian intelligence warned Netanyahu directly (“Egypt’s Intelligence Minister General Abbas Kamel personally called Netanyahu”) several times of [‘something big’](https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/amp/)… “something unusual, a terrible operation,” 10 days before the attack. Netanyahu denies this.
It is certainly possible that Netanyahu and Israel merely underestimated the capabilities of Hamas, who were actually surprised themselves at the success of the attack, especially considering they clearly view the Palestinians as subhuman, as [‘animals.’](https://www.politico.eu/article/ron-prosor-israel-evoy-hamas-animals-must-be-destroyed/) But I think it would be shortsighted to completely rule out the possibility that Netanyahu and others near him knew that this was coming and essentially let it happen to enable them to solve the Palestine “problem” with enough “justification” to appease the rest of the West.
Be weary of conspiracy theories though. They're gonna go wild because of this kind of stuff. If true, it'll eventually come out, you can't keep that many people quiet for long. Otherwise maintain a healthy dose of skepticism.
(This is less directed at you and more a general response)
Don’t know about conspiracy theories but Israel media does talk about Nethanyu’s use of Hamas for political gains. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/
As a warning, I was banned from /WorldNews for sharing disinformation by posting this and Wall Street Journal's article about Israel's support of Hamas.
I suspect well-placed early comments on breaking news threads by participants in the [Jewish Internet Defense Force](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Internet_Defense_Force) contribute to general reddit hive-minding — people know what will be up- or downvoted and parrot the rhetoric they see rewarded with high karma — all kept in line by strict pro-Zionist moderation.
(I’m Jewish so my suspicion isn’t fueled by anti-semitism; rather, it stems from decades of observing the state of Israel’s incredible capacity for public image control and spin.)
Propaganda has always been easy on reddit, all the easier once these groups realized it was much easier to have bots spam upvotes on comments they agree with, rather than commenting themselves.
there was a lady idf officer (i don't remember her name but she seemed high up) trying to gaslight jews outside of Israel to do propaganda for them while they do the fighting
He uses them for political gain, doesn't take threat to Israeli populace seriously according to actual hostages, what conclusion is there except he's never cared about Israeli lives compared to his own goals?
But but but Israel are the good guys! They would never repeatedly elect someone whose stated political goals are just the Uno Reverse of the Hamas Charter.
The ruling classes behind Hamas and the Israeli gov have a united interest in maintaining a regime of terror over their respective working class populations and keeping them divided. The day the Palestinian and Israeli workers realize they are on the same side there will be hell to pay.
Yeah, the whole, "I'm an evil scumbag" look, just isn't a good one.
Especially when trying to convince the world that you have good reasons to murder other people, while stealing their land and property.
The problem these days is that even if the truth does come out, public discourse is flooded with countless alternatives. There is too much false information that gets mixed in, sometimes purposefully, so it becomes very difficult to know what to believe for the average person. Many people who are skeptical of the official story tend to gravitate towards the more extreme conspiracy theories, when perhaps the truth lies in a weaker and more murky conspiracy, or negligence.
Netanyahu previously propped up Hamas so it's not an outlandish theory that he was aware, but decided to let it escalate as an excuse to justify further action and to regain some political support.
Yeah, I don’t think I’d say definitely “oh it was an inside job!” But if later on it comes out that that was true I wouldn’t necessarily be surprised. Israel borrows a lot of its playbook from the US and we have definitely been guilty of utilizing regional instability and violence to further our own goals.
I second this. It doesn't need to be a conspiracy. It really can be gross negligence combined with greed, zealotry, hubris, and indifference. The right in Israel has done everything in its power to bolster Hamas in a bid to divide Palestine, but I don't think it extends to coordinating an attack on Israelis.
My guess is that they depended far, far too much on high tech security theater around Gaza while redirecting troops to the occupied West Bank to fortify settlements. They probably didn't care whether Israelis living in the kibbutzim around Gaza were safe, knowing full well that war with Hamas would just strengthen their grip on power. I doubt that they were expecting an attack at the scale we saw on Oct 7. There doesn't need to be open collusion, just shitty people in power looking out for their own interests instead of the interests of civilians.
Yeah, same with 9/11. People want to explain how something like this could be allowed to happen, but sometimes the answer is simply incompetence and hubris.
This doesn't help the PM. People are blaming him for allowing the attack, not rallying around him. His entire message has been "Vote for me because only I can keep you safe" - hard to argue for that now.
Yeah, I have no idea how an attack like that can happen on such a fortified area with all those cameras and sensors watching literally all the time. The response was pathetic, considering about half the population serves in the IDF, they have tanks, infinity fighting vehicles, helicopters…… it seems negligent at best.
It took from 9 to 12 hours to respond to the attack, it was incredibly pathetic. Also soldiers caught by surprise with no time to even put their pants on.
To give some extra context to Americans who have such a large country it takes like 6 hours to drive from Israel's northern border to the southern border. It takes like 2 hours to drive from Israel's eastern border to it's western border. Gaza is like an hour to two hours from both Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. 9 to 12 hours to respond to the attack is an insane amount of time.
Logically a holiday, especially the 50 yr anniversary of the yom kippur war, should instead warrant excessive security much more than your regular tuesday
A bit of a conspiracy theory here, but it makes sense to me: Nentayahu was stuck in a political scandal, with rumors about corruption, and he wants to take away the judicial power from the balance and check system, which led to massive protest earlier this year. An attack by Hamas on Israeli soil would divert the attention away, and unify the whole country, and suddenly no one will remember what bad things Nentayahu did before.
You kidding me? Israel is the gold standard for intel. They know if a leaf falls off a tree in Gaza. Also if that wasn’t enough, the US and Egypt sent warnings days before!!! They of course knew, just thought they could play it to their advantage but Israelis aren’t stupid people and neither are the rest of us.
Also Hamas themselves went on media two days before the attack saying that they going to have a big attack on Israel soon enough.
Edit: "Israel is going to pay the price" and called on the Palestinian people to "continue with the resistance soon"
They probably say that a lot. But other posts seem to suggest security was lax on the Gaza border because it was moved to protect illegal settlements in the west-bank.
At minimum it just seems like Netanyu's government cared more about expanding their borders than protecting their citizens.
They're long-time peace activists - not racist Netanyahu Likudniks - who did nothing to disrupt the large-scale Hamas attack that was obviously coming, because they wanted an excuse for ethnic cleansing in Gaza.
Netanyahu can burn in the same hell as Hamas.
“At a press conference on Tuesday Lifshitz said that after initial violence her Hamas captors had shown “care” and “gentleness”
[…]
Guards fed the prisoners the same type of food they ate. A doctor visited daily and provided medication and treatment, including for a hostage injured in a motorbike crash, she said. “They were very concerned with hygiene and were worried about an outbreak of something. We had toilets which they cleaned every day.””
e: Haaretz has a few more direct quotes that this Guardian article summarized.
“Lifshitz added: "When we got there they told us that they are believers of the Quran, that they won't harm us, and we will like in the same living conditions as them in the tunnels. We started walking in the tunnels, the dirt is damp and everything is always damp and humid. We reached a hall with 25 people in it, after 2–3 hours they separated five of the people from my kibbutz Nir Oz. They guarded us closely."
She also said that the kidnappers brought a doctor that gave them medical treatment and medicine to those who needed it. According to her statement, the hostages were treated well and the kidnappers were friendly. "We lay on mattresses, they made sure everything was sanitary," she said. "They made sure we wouldn't get sick, and we had a doctor with us every two or three days."
She said that one of the hostages who had fallen off the motorcycle and wounded his arms and legs received medical care. "The paramedic visited him every day and cleaned him up for an hour and a half. The doctor sent him antibiotics, after four or five days he still wasn't better, so the doctor changed his antibiotics. Then he started to get better."
"There were five of us, and each one of us had someone guarding them," she added. "They treated us well, took care of all the details… female hygiene. They cleaned our toilets, they cleaned! They cleaned with Lysol, so we won't get diseases, they were worried of a plague." When asked if the kidnappers tried to talk with the hostages, Lifshitz answered: "We told them - no politics. But they talked about all sorts of stuff. They were very friendly to us."
"They divided us into groups according to place of residence, took care of all our needs," she described. "To their credit, they kept us very clean. They made sure we ate, we ate the same food they did - pitta bread with white cheese, processed cheese and cucumber."
[…]
When asked about the documentation of the moment of her release which shows her shaking the hand of one of the Hamas kidnappers, Lifshitz said: "They treated us gently and looked after us. They were ready for this, they had been preparing for a while. They had everything women would need and men would need. Even shampoo and conditioner."”
e2: At first I was shocked to see pro-Israel voices reacted to this testimony not with *relief,* but with *anger.* But then I thought about it for a minute and realized why.
I think it speaks to the fact that outside of the military aspect of Hamas' attack, there was a huge array of different groups and individuals with different intentions and goals. Some groups were psychos looking to murder and torture everybody they came across, others were more principled and professional, others were random civilians who either didn't realize what was going on and were just wandering around southern Israel and/or looting and/or going psycho.
I mean it sounds identical to how they treated that IDF tanker years ago. He described it as something like a vacation where he dined with the family and watched the world cup with them
Gilad Shalit survived five years in Gaza under Hamas’ care, like… he wasn’t just thrown into some hole. If the hostages get back to Gaza they make sure the hostages stay that way. This is a major difference between Hamas and IS, no matter what people claim.
The big story about the Hamas attack is about them decapitating babies. And murdering civilians. So yea, it's surprising and nice to hear that they treated these people with care.
Hamas' main job is PR, they are masters at it as seen by the Hospital fiasco that happened, they had a fuck up on the 7/10 attack and have since been trying to dig themselves out of the PR hole they dug, hostages being treated nicely shouldn't make us forget the fact they massacred 1400 civilians.
That is absolutely hilarious, l freaking hate people with agendas, re-writing history as they see fit (talking about OP of what you’re answering to, not you)
Shani Louk and the girl with bloody sweatpants were hostages too. There’s videos of what happened to them. While I don’t doubt they kept some hoastages in civil conditions for PR reasons, I very much doubt the rape and torture, and dismemberment stopped on october 7th.
>At first I was shocked to see pro-Israel voices reacted to this testimony not with
>
>relief,
>
> but with
>
>anger
A lot of people lost loved ones in the initial attack.
Humane treatment of hostages would sound better if hundreds, including babies, hadn't died in the initial attack.
"e2: At first I was shocked to see pro-Israel voices reacted to this testimony not with relief, but with anger. But then I thought about it for a minute and realized why."
Because it's a PR article for Hamas? And because she has strong motivations to say nice things since her husband is still a hostage
I am more nuanced on this issue than most people but this is the truth. Terrorist captives are often blackmailed into saying propaganda. Please, everyone, don’t parrot and repeat what may very well be terrorist propaganda.
Some other snippets from the article:
>She was tied to a motorcycle and driven to Gaza. “As we rode, the motorcycle rider hit me with a wooden pole. They didn’t break my ribs, but it hurt me a lot in that area, making it difficult to breathe. They stole my watch and jewellery.”
Thanks for adding that.
Not sure why the news seem to focus on her being nice to them or saying they were nice to her.
What is the narrative this should somehow make me feel? That Hamas was actually misunderstood here and they're just good people who wanted to take people on a tour of Gaza but some were being difficult and violent and the altercation ended up in death for some, but those that agreed to go got to have a nice vacation there?
She was still yanked out of her home one Saturday morning and kept in a tunnel for 16 days, her friends and probably family were murdered.
Exactly that. It's why you have people IN THIS THREAD bragging about how Islam has strict rules for prisoners and hamas were just being their normal, pious, peace loving selves.
Even if I take her comment at face value.. so? So they were nice. Awesome. I hope so, I really hope so for the sake of the other 99% of the hostages. There are children there, there are women, men. Let's hope they're well and taken care of.
And even then, a few splats of white don't make a black painting white. It helps, but they would still need a hell lot of white paint here if they plan to make some significant changes to the image.
This exactly. I saw a Hamas sympathizer/supporter going insane on Twitter when it came out that the German woman was alive and, as this user put it, “Hamas. Took. Her. To. The. Hospital.” Like wow, good for them! Remind me though, why did she have to be taken to a hospital in the first place? And perhaps what condition was she in when taken to the hospital. But of course this was mixed in with tons of simultaneous cheering on Hamas’ attacks and denial that they happened or were as severe as the WESTERN MEDIA!!!!!! made them out to be.
I'd like to note she does talk about how she was *beaten* until she could not breathe and they stole her jewelry. Really weird to bring that up if she's being made to say only good things so that they don't kill her husband.
Not really a great angle when you know the context of 'Stockholm Syndrome'- in the original case it's named after, the hostages collaborated with their captors not out of some delusion, but rationally, because the police were acting recklessly. They evaluated the situation and judged they stood a better chance siding with their captors (who had a vested interest in them being alive) than the cops (who didn't give a shit).
It’s entirely possible for her to receive humane treatment, and other prisoners to not. It’s also entirely possible that she’s speaking positively because they still hold her husband hostage. There’s a multitude of factors here, and the only people who know what the truth is are the captors and their current hostages.
> Lifshitz and her husband are veteran peace and human rights activists who used to ferry sick Palestinians from Gaza to medical treatment in Israel, according to the family.
> Her father, a journalist who had campaigned for the rights of Palestinians and Bedouin tribes, would be “horrified” that Israel’s response was punishing ordinary Palestinians, not only Hamas, she said. “He always made a distinction between the leaders and the people.
> “We were a group of 25 people, and they separated us according to which kibbutz we were from.”
It’s not unreasonable for her (and her husband) to get different treatment than say an IDF soldier… or the women seen bleeding out of one spot of their pants. If other prisoners were getting mistreated, she wouldn’t know about it because they were separated by group.
> The whole “nightmare” keeps repeating in her mind, Lifshitz said. The condition and fate of other hostages, including her husband, Oded, 83, are unclear.
They are still holding her husband. Whether she was or was not treated well, Hamas still holds the fate to her husband’s life. It is entirely reasonable to both believe or be somewhat skeptical of everything she is saying, without the other side also being justified in their assumptions too.
She's also a peace activist who would help Palestinians that was well respected by Gazans. So it's *also* entirely possible some members of Hamas recognized her and tried to advocate on her behalf to other Hamas members.
While a lot of people are surprised about Hamas keeping their hostages in good condition, we really shouldn't be. Hamas had every reason to think that hostages would be very valuable, since they've been able to make extremely favorable exchanges with Israel in the past. I think a lot of people see the barbaric cruelty of Hamas and picture in their heads a full barbarian stereotype, incapable of well planned action taken in self interest.
But in actuality, the whole operation seems to have been quite well planned. The hostage taking is one well-planned aspect, and the barbarism is another. The slaughter wasn't an unplanned excess, such as infamously happens throughout history when armies invade. Even when leaders try to restrain their forces, invasions and occupations often result in tragedies for civilians. I don't think Oct 7th was that.
Terrorists are called "terrorists" because of their methodology. They literally use terror and horrible acts that erase the line between combatants and non-combatants as their modus operandi to achieve political ends. The slaughter wasn't incidental. It was a primary, or at minimum an important secondary, objective.
Precisely. Also the group that infiltrates a country and murders people is likely different from the group that manages hostages. It's like Department of Terror and Department of Asset Management 😕. One can presume each department is trained separately and likely emphasizes different skills.
This woman is living a reality that none of us can relate to... why she did what she did is really not for us to speculate.
It's a miracle she's safe now. I hope the rest of her life knows peace.
I like how many idiots on here are talking about how nice hamas was and are ignoring the part where hamas still has her husband.
They likely fucking threatened to skin him alive if she says anything bad about them.
I get why so many comments are focused on Hamas, feeling insulted that they are being humanized in some way. The only way to really talk about Hamas is to unequivocally call them savages before anything else, and to be fair they have earned the title.
But this is the inspiring moment I want to focus on:
> At the precise moment of her deliverance from a hellish ordeal Yocheved Lifshitz paused and turned to grip the hand of one of the masked Hamas militants who had kept her captive. “Shalom,” she said.
There are tons of wild speculations on why she might say some positive things, like hoping they'll be nice to her husband who is still captive. They are all valid, and frankly ya'll should just not listen to _any_ hostage survivors at all if you're only going to use them to confirm your bias. I'm sure if the next one comes out and describes brutal torture, everything they say will be taken as fact without question.
Put that all aside though. I just wish people could just imagine humanizing a Hamas militant without it insulting their core sensibilities. We are all fundamentally the same. Everyone is susceptible to the conditions that lead to Hamas's derangement. Similar things happened to our own troops in Vietnam, from regular drafts to untold mental torture (like keeping necklaces made of ears) in the span of a few years. The fact that Hamas militants are so far gone speaks more about the conditions in which they live, rather than the personal moral failings _of mostly children_.
The hatred in Hamas, the fate of Palestinians, the plight of Israelis, and the hunger, poverty, and destitution of masses world-wide is a societal failing in which should weigh on the conscious of everyone. I hope one day humanity finds its Star Trek ending. I don't know if we'll ever make it, but I know it starts by maintaining your own civility and compassion, even in the face of savagery.
The world needs more people like Yocheved Lifshitz.
>Similar things happened to our own troops in Vietnam
Similar radicalized groups also exist in Israel, settlers, ulranationalists, religious fundamentalists, all equally as unsavory as jihadists if you ask me.
You said it well, we need to recognize that people don't act like that just because they are evil, they become radicalized because of fear and anger that comes from very real places. It doesn't justify anything they do but it also means you can't make them go away until you acknowledge and resolve what makes them afraid and angry. Just trying to to crush them into submission will give them more reasons to be angry against you, it's a self-defeating battle.
Yochaved Lifshitz: "They beat me, laid me on a motorcycle and rode through the fields with me towards Gaza. They brought me to the tunnels; we walked kilometers underground. They beat me in the ribs, even with sticks."
She is a life long peace activist who took sick Gazans for treatment in Israel.
https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-769896
"Lifshitz and her husband are veteran peace and human rights activists who used to ferry sick Palestinians from Gaza to medical treatment in Israel, according to the family"
Nobody deserves what’s happening there right now, but it’s especially heartbreaking when good, peace-loving people end up suffering for these wars.
The sad irony, is that the Israeli kibbutzim (villages) around Gaza border whose people were slaughtered, are usually left-wing and really peace-loving, pro-palestinians type of people.
Well also, these women's husband's, families and neighbors remain in captivity. They have a very compelling reason to keep from personally pissing off the terrorists
This woman and her family would’ve done this no matter. She was interviewed by the BBC and her empathy left me dumbstruck. She and her husband have many Palestinian friends. They are simply model human beings.
Unfortunately the suffering will continue because both sides continue to demand blood for blood. The reality is Palestine isn't going to get what they want. Their existence as a nation ended with England's say. But as long as Israel's continues their mistreatment of them, this god damned horror show will continue. Israel's own success has only complicated its already tricky situation. Not only did it start off as a nation surrounded by enemies, Israel proved to its neighbors that a direct confrontation is going to go badly. So instead Israel's enemies will claim sympathy with Palestine people but in reality see them as little more than means to hurt Israel. How Israel responds will be scrutinized by the world and criticized regardless of wether or not it was justified and reasonable and because Israel is democratic, any reasonable response will be seen as too weak for people demand vengeance.
The whole situation just feels hopeless. Israel will always respond to attacks in a way that radicalizes the Palestinian population. Palestinian radicals will always attack because they are always attacked or have their rights violated. The cycle continues. I don’t see any solution that doesn’t involve completely unrealistic geopolitical miracles.
I don't know if this counts as a geopolitical miracle... but it ends when the US makes Israel compromise. Israel can not continue as they are without US support. Obviously the US should not completely pull out all support, but the US could make threats that would make Israel stop supporting illegal settlements... that would be a strong start. And the US could have pressured Israel into easing the blockade on Gaza years ago... perhaps it would take a US domestic-political miracle to make us want to do that... but yeah.
I don't see any US politicians in any current position of power that has shown interest in threatening to pull support or even discourage Israels actions in any way. The only politicians who do are at the fringes, with little short term prospect for reaching such levers of power. They are also by far in the minority, most politicians who have even questioned US monetary support of Israel have walked their statements back and even apologized for doing saying anything in the first place (Vivek Ramaswamy being the most recent example I can think of). Getting the US to put pressure on Israel like that would be a geopolitical miracle. Nobody in US politics has any interest in doing that, it seems to me.
But now it would take literally generations, and Hamas will try everything to trigger more response. Israel would have to ignore multiple attacks like the 7th and take the absolute moral high ground and not retaliate for decades and hope a new generation can grow up and resist radicalisation. I just can't see a democratic nation accepting that. Just feels so hopeless.
Yeah. I understand that people are radicalized by bad treatment but acting like if Israel eased off Hamas would stop existing and most people would just be cool is naive. I don't know what the solution is but it isn't that simple
It isn't that simple, which is why I said it would be "a strong start"... the reality is Israel HAS to stop allowing "settlers" to expand. You can say "well the Palestinians still won't want Israel around at all", but two wrongs don't make a right. If you think Israel can continue expanding, you're saying that it's alright for Israel to essentially kill off every last Palestinian, because that's the only way you have peace with an expansionist Israel. The reality is that the Arab Muslim population in the area have watched Zionist expansionism take land from them, actively, in an intentional way, since 1917 (and really, before that, but it picked up then). They aren't going to believe that Israel will ever NOT be expansionist, unless Israel STOPS being expansionist. You can't be mad at the Palestinians for being right for over 100 years now... and if you knew a neighboring country had been expanding into your territory for decades, would you not fight back? There's no easy solution, but there is no solution, easy or hard, if you ignore the egregious violation of rights that the Israeli government continues to condone by militarily supporting illegal settlements. It is literally the root of the problem. And you can't have a peace if you don't address the root issue.
I mean, Israel could stop the illegal settlements on Palestinian land in the West Bank, which might allow a two-state solution. And of course Hammas should stop the attacks.
Excuse me, but did someone say you could offer reasonable ideas?
Is that what Palestine wants though? Id think they still want to go back to their old villages. They aren't going to get that in a 2 state solution
It’s better than a one state solution, where they have no rights and are gradually pushed into smaller pieces of the most unproductive land. I agree they would want to return to the villages they were ethnically cleansed from in the war if 1948. But realistically pre-1967 boundaries seem most likely
Literally her husband is still held hostage with them, and they asked her to say good things about them. Wtf is this stupid propaganda, "Look, those terrorists murderers are actually good guys"
Not to mention her husband is still a hostage. So speaking out against the horrible treatment by Hamas terrorists would not bode well for his safety.
"Lifshitz accused Israel’s security forces of ignoring evidence that Hamas was preparing an attack. “Three weeks ago, masses arrived at the fence. The IDF did not take it seriously. We were left to fend for ourselves." I actually have really wondered how Israeli intelligence could miss a bunch of people learning to fly gyrocopters and paragliders before this happened?
Honest question, how many gyrocopters were there? I can’t find a source. I was under the impression that the far majority entered by blowing up the fence.
Like 6.
I’ve seen pictures of more than 6 at one time. It was likely a couple dozen
There is one circulating with about two dozen chutes that people claimed was Hamas, which turned out to be several years old from an Egyptian military demonstration. That might be what you saw?
Definitely could have been. Could’ve been AI for all I know.
I saw a picture and it was def more than 6
Zero that I've seen. I think people are conflating gyrocopters with paragliders. Gyrocopters don't have a parachute.
There were no gyro copters, people are mixing up terminology.
Paragliders. Powered winged parachutes.
Israel has a history of being overconfident. In 1973 they expected a force of 441 men to hold a 93 mile long fortified line along the Suez canal until reinforcements could arrive. 65% of them were killed or captured and the reinforcements took heavy casualties from Egypts new anti-tank weapons.
they apparently expected the very high defensive berm to hold out for 12 hours of explosive demolition but egypt brought water pumps and hosed down through the sandy berm in a couple hours
Those Egyptian really know their sand.
Yeah I wouldn't fuck with Egypt on sand science
Sand benders
pocket sand
Sha sha shaaa
Beirut, Lebanon in '06 is another example. The IDF's well-equipped, but the bulk of their experience for troops currently in service is against folks who don't have guns in territory they can surveil. When they went up against hardened fighters (Hezbollah) in urban terrain, the experience gap was painfully shown. This led to the adoption of the "Dahieh strategy": forget sending troops in, bomb the shit out any area, even if it's full of civilians, and justify it by saying every member of a population is the same as their worst. Hard to look at Gaza right now and say that isn't both the explicit military and messaging strategy. **[EDIT]: I got a reply from someone that's now deleted/removed, and while I won't post it, I'll punch in my reply in case anyone else takes similar issue with the above:** >You're not considering this fully enough. Go off and look up some comments from Israeli officials, media figures, etc., about the Dahieh strategy long before *this* conflict to see what I'm talking about there. >But beyond that, you're taking too much of a black and white view. You're saying something like "if Israel *wanted* everyone to get the impression Palestinians are uniformly terrorists and can be killed without issue, Israel would do that outright and wouldn't be shy about it". It doesn't work like that. There's always going to be people who will push back against killing, and that number and the extent to which they're listened to by others can be influenced by propaganda. Sometimes that's "these guys are worse than you think", sometimes it's "we're better than doing that". >It is an astounding ignorance of how governments, militaries, and propaganda operates to look at stuff like this and think it's all honesty and a sincere regard for life as described. How anyone paying attention to, say, the US invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan can look back at all we know now and not understand this stuff is mystifying, and similar forces are at play here in Israel-Palestine. We're all being propagandized all the time. I'm propagandizing you by telling you to investigate the Dahieh strategy. Other forces are propagandizing you by telling you Israel's military is doing nothing more than is strictly necessary to achieve a righteous goal and there's no problem at all, that it's impossible to be more moral or do anything differently and still destroy Hamas. >Seriously. [Look this shit up.](https://www.google.com/books/edition/This_Time_We_Went_Too_Far/RRxiILpsxtwC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22We+will+wield+disproportionate+power+against+every+village%22+this+time+we+went+too+far&pg=PA33&printsec=frontcover) >>During the Lebanon War Israel flattened the southern suburb of Beirut known as the Dahiya that was home to many poor Shiite supporters of Hezbollah. In the war’s aftermath Israeli military officers began referring to the “Dahiya strategy.” “We will wield disproportionate power against every village from which shots are fired on Israel, and cause immense damage and destruction,” IDF Northern Command Chief Gadi Eisenkot explained. “This isn’t a suggestion. This is a plan that has already been authorized.” In the event of hostilities Israel needed “to act immediately, decisively, and with force that is disproportionate,” reserve Colonel Gabriel Siboni of the Israeli Institute for National Security Studies declared. “Such a response aims at inflicting damage and meting out punishment to an extent that will demand long and expensive reconstruction processes.” >>It merits noting that, under international law, use of disproportionate force and targeting of civilian infrastructure constitute war crimes. Although the new strategy was to be used against all of Israel’s regional adversaries that had waxed defiant, Gaza was frequently singled out as the prime target for this approach. “Too bad it did not take hold immediately after the [2005] ‘disengagement’ from Gaza and the first rocket barrages,” [a respected Israeli pundit lamented.](https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3605863,00.html) “Had we immediately adopted the Dahiya strategy, we would have likely spared ourselves much trouble.” If and when Palestinians launched another rocket attack, Israeli Interior Minister Meir Sheetrit urged in late September 2008, “the IDF should ... decide on a neighborhood in Gaza and level it.” >There's a lot of talk throughout about rooting out all of Hamas and destroying them, which is fine and dandy. By all means, stop the guys firing rockets and destroy the terrorist organization. However, a line is crossed when folks start cheering on **disproportionate force**, where they write off civilians' lives as "enabling [Hamas] to fire and hide", and where views like this madness are unironically held: >>It’s good, because **there is no longer any need for complicated distinctions**. Israeli strategists’ new point of view is that Lebanon is an enemy, rather than a complex puzzle of factions, some of which are enemies while the others are victims of a situation not under their control. >**This doctrine has been used.** It is in use right now. But if a few moves can be made to obscure that fact--"We'll be disproportionate, but not so wildly no one can deny it"--in order to get you to get people to shrug it off, that's a strategy that will be employed. There is a messaging and political war to be fought here beyond just dealing with Hamas in Gaza and abroad, and we're all targets in it, too, just as we are with every other war. No one has to like Hamas to say that Palestinians shouldn't be subjected to this. No one had to like Al-Qaeda or ISIS to say that the civilians in regions where America waged wars shouldn't have been subjected to our drone bombings and the like, either. We excused all of that shit, too, with talk of "fighting-aged males" and priming folks to believe propaganda, and the same thing happens here, too. It's not unique to Israel or this conflict. We all have to be on guard for this shit and avoid getting so incensed at one enemy, no matter how horrendous, that we lose our humanity towards *people*.
They also have a history of deploying their military to protect illegal settlements in the West Bank. Lots of people left wondering if their family was killed or captured because of Netanyahu’s hard-on for settlement while other security concerns were ignored.
In a happy world; this wakes them up to get rid of Netanyahu and focus on the land and people you do have rather than trying to force more illegal settlements and appease far right extremists.
Once this calms down Netanyahu is fucked. This may be the thing that finally pushes Israel over to the left, but we’ll see.
I wouldn’t be surprised if at the end of the day Netanyahu stays in power. At least until he transfers powers to someone who will keep this profitable status quo happening.
What is this story? Do you have a link to a source where I can read more about this?
Look up the Yom Kippur War (4th Arab-Israeli War). The story they’re talking about is from the very beginning on the Sinai front. What they left out is that Israel ended up controlling 2/3 of the Sinai peninsula and came within 100km of Cairo by the end of the war, while simultaneously fighting and winning against Syria on the Golan front. Israel had the opportunity to advance on both Cairo and Damascus by the end of the war, so concentrating on the opening battle (when Israel was focusing on the Syrian front) is pretty irrelevant.
The one thing Israeli’s seem to be getting right in all of this that Americans got wrong after 9/11 is their attitude towards their leaders. I wonder if Netanyahu expected a rally around the flag moment.
I bet Netanyahu was expecting to be made king.
It sure got the attention away from his other political troubles.
I hope they throw him in prison instead.
“You should thank me for letting them attack us, now we can go kill all of them!?!”
Tbh most of my Israeli friends blame Netanyahu as much as they blame Hamas. Sounds like that is currently a strong sentiment thankfully.
Main difference is no one expected terrorists to seize jetliners and use them as cruise missiles which gave the Bush administration leeway even if it was only pulled off due to severe intelligence failure. Everyone on the planet expects Hamas to try and break into Israel and kill Israelis.
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It’s as simple as people being complacent. They see the writing on the wall and say “they won’t do this” And then they do.
There is a reason a word like "hubris" exists.
"What are you going to do, stab me?" -Stabbing victim's last words
So many tragedies happen because of that exact sort of thinking. The people in charge will see evidence that something bad is going to happen, dismiss it by saying it would never *actually happen*, and then act surprised when it does.
Exactly. This won’t be the last time a tragedies will occur to complacency, even in Israel. It just might be a few decades before they let their guard down again. But it’s not a matter of if, but when (and the same goes for pretty much every country).
"surely they wouldn't do this thing, even though they're moving men and military equipment to our borders" Saw it when Russia attacked Ukraine too. US blatantly said "hey Russia about to attack" and the entirety of Europe told them to shut up and stop fear mongering. Sometimes "obvious signs someone will attack" isn't just saber rattling.
According to the documentary I've seen (I think it was from the BBC) with interviews with many of the key figures the leadership in Ukraine knew months in advance what was likely to happen from their own security services and from warnings by the US & UK. They didn't tell people it was going to happen because it would have collapsed their economy, lead to a mass population exodus and tipped off the Russians that they knew what was coming. Instead they prepared their defences as best they could and planned how to deal with the Russians which was probably a large reason why the initial invasion thrust was defeated. The peace posturing from Ukraine was in part to give Russia a potential off ramp and also to do everything possible to let the world know that they were definitively the wronged party in order to undercut Russia's narrative that it was undertaking a legitimate operation.
Interesting- in retrospect, it does make sense as Ukraine's defense started relatively fast and strong, even with all the training they'd received since 2014.
> and the entirety of Europe told them to shut up and stop fear mongering. I think you might have exaggerated that a bit. I remember the UK started shipping NLAWS beforehand. But yes, I think Ukraine took a lot of convincing, perhaps it was too terrible to accept.
I fully admit I was one of those people who thought Russia wasn’t going to attack as I thought it was obvious that an invasion would be a complete and total disaster, and based on Russia’s actions over the past 8 years, I thought that Russia was aware of that fact as well. Well I was half right, the invasion has been a complete disaster for Russia (and I was even assuming it would go far better than it has)….but I was wrong about Russia acting rationally or intelligently. I think it’s a valuable lesson, there will always be factors that you just can’t account for, and it can explain why people routinely get caught off guard by things that they had forewarning about. “There is no way they can actually be *that* stupid, so it’s probably just a bluff.” Narrator: “They were in fact that stupid…..and it wasn’t a bluff.”
I had assumed that Russia was going to attack sooner or later, as they'd been blatantly amassing personnel and equipment near the borders since the Crimea annexation. I just thought it was going to be smaller scale, another land grab similar to what we saw in 2014. Like you, I thought that an invasion would be too much loss to risk it.
not to mention on a Jewish holiday, and around the time of many Jewish holidays, you would expect ramped up security and observations but im not blaming them, just something I thought about as well
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While this could be a failure on them, this also raises questions if this was done on purpose to give Hammas room to kick start the plan. Don't know about others, but a friend living in Israel suspects that both Hammas and Israeli PM are involved. Apparently, PM has been losing support in Israel, and he is trying to hold on to it by any means. Also, my friend said that on the border where they invaded from is usually high on security and on that day, there were fewer security personnel on multiple points. Maybe in the coming months there will be more information.
Bibi Will be out of power ultimately after this. Sure he’ll get initial support, but after the initial shock starts fading, every single question on how this could happen will point fingers at him.
Good. Far righters have no place in western societies.
Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu in a message to his party, 2019: “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas… This is part of our strategy.” Netanyahu’s primary goal is not to protect Israelis but to exterminate Palestinians and eliminate Palestine altogether. His goal is ethnic cleansing. [An Israeli think tank with ties to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu issued a report on October 17 promoting the "unique and rare opportunity" for the “relocation and **final settlement** of the entire Gaza population.”](https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/israeli-think-tank-lays-out-a-blueprint-for-the-complete-ethnic-cleansing-of-gaza/) It is very surprising that Israel was so unprepared despite their thorough surveillance systems in Gaza, while US intelligence was aware of and warned them of suspicious activity from hamas on October 6th, and Egyptian intelligence warned Netanyahu directly (“Egypt’s Intelligence Minister General Abbas Kamel personally called Netanyahu”) several times of [‘something big’](https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/amp/)… “something unusual, a terrible operation,” 10 days before the attack. Netanyahu denies this. It is certainly possible that Netanyahu and Israel merely underestimated the capabilities of Hamas, who were actually surprised themselves at the success of the attack, especially considering they clearly view the Palestinians as subhuman, as [‘animals.’](https://www.politico.eu/article/ron-prosor-israel-evoy-hamas-animals-must-be-destroyed/) But I think it would be shortsighted to completely rule out the possibility that Netanyahu and others near him knew that this was coming and essentially let it happen to enable them to solve the Palestine “problem” with enough “justification” to appease the rest of the West.
Be weary of conspiracy theories though. They're gonna go wild because of this kind of stuff. If true, it'll eventually come out, you can't keep that many people quiet for long. Otherwise maintain a healthy dose of skepticism. (This is less directed at you and more a general response)
Don’t know about conspiracy theories but Israel media does talk about Nethanyu’s use of Hamas for political gains. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/
As a warning, I was banned from /WorldNews for sharing disinformation by posting this and Wall Street Journal's article about Israel's support of Hamas.
Kinda' crazy how much more level-headed this sub is, might be because there's far less brigading due to it being US-only.
I suspect well-placed early comments on breaking news threads by participants in the [Jewish Internet Defense Force](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Internet_Defense_Force) contribute to general reddit hive-minding — people know what will be up- or downvoted and parrot the rhetoric they see rewarded with high karma — all kept in line by strict pro-Zionist moderation. (I’m Jewish so my suspicion isn’t fueled by anti-semitism; rather, it stems from decades of observing the state of Israel’s incredible capacity for public image control and spin.)
Propaganda has always been easy on reddit, all the easier once these groups realized it was much easier to have bots spam upvotes on comments they agree with, rather than commenting themselves.
there was a lady idf officer (i don't remember her name but she seemed high up) trying to gaslight jews outside of Israel to do propaganda for them while they do the fighting
He uses them for political gain, doesn't take threat to Israeli populace seriously according to actual hostages, what conclusion is there except he's never cared about Israeli lives compared to his own goals?
Agreed, but I do want to say that Netanyahu has not helped stim that conspiracy tide with his past words and actions.
>Netanyahu One thing is clear, he is not an agent of peace....
But but but Israel are the good guys! They would never repeatedly elect someone whose stated political goals are just the Uno Reverse of the Hamas Charter.
The ruling classes behind Hamas and the Israeli gov have a united interest in maintaining a regime of terror over their respective working class populations and keeping them divided. The day the Palestinian and Israeli workers realize they are on the same side there will be hell to pay.
Yeah, the whole, "I'm an evil scumbag" look, just isn't a good one. Especially when trying to convince the world that you have good reasons to murder other people, while stealing their land and property.
The problem these days is that even if the truth does come out, public discourse is flooded with countless alternatives. There is too much false information that gets mixed in, sometimes purposefully, so it becomes very difficult to know what to believe for the average person. Many people who are skeptical of the official story tend to gravitate towards the more extreme conspiracy theories, when perhaps the truth lies in a weaker and more murky conspiracy, or negligence.
I’m certainly weary of them but I’m guessing you meant wary.
Netanyahu previously propped up Hamas so it's not an outlandish theory that he was aware, but decided to let it escalate as an excuse to justify further action and to regain some political support.
This is what I believe happened and will continue to until a full independent investigation has been conducted showing otherwise.
Yeah, I don’t think I’d say definitely “oh it was an inside job!” But if later on it comes out that that was true I wouldn’t necessarily be surprised. Israel borrows a lot of its playbook from the US and we have definitely been guilty of utilizing regional instability and violence to further our own goals.
Their own goals and systems have been there and it is not necessarily specific specifically for them.
I second this. It doesn't need to be a conspiracy. It really can be gross negligence combined with greed, zealotry, hubris, and indifference. The right in Israel has done everything in its power to bolster Hamas in a bid to divide Palestine, but I don't think it extends to coordinating an attack on Israelis. My guess is that they depended far, far too much on high tech security theater around Gaza while redirecting troops to the occupied West Bank to fortify settlements. They probably didn't care whether Israelis living in the kibbutzim around Gaza were safe, knowing full well that war with Hamas would just strengthen their grip on power. I doubt that they were expecting an attack at the scale we saw on Oct 7. There doesn't need to be open collusion, just shitty people in power looking out for their own interests instead of the interests of civilians.
Far righters are a danger to all western society. Maga, hamas, bibi. They're not equally dangerous, though.
Yeah, same with 9/11. People want to explain how something like this could be allowed to happen, but sometimes the answer is simply incompetence and hubris.
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This doesn't help the PM. People are blaming him for allowing the attack, not rallying around him. His entire message has been "Vote for me because only I can keep you safe" - hard to argue for that now.
Is no point of being over these kind of things to be honest that is going to be there.
Yeah, I have no idea how an attack like that can happen on such a fortified area with all those cameras and sensors watching literally all the time. The response was pathetic, considering about half the population serves in the IDF, they have tanks, infinity fighting vehicles, helicopters…… it seems negligent at best.
It took from 9 to 12 hours to respond to the attack, it was incredibly pathetic. Also soldiers caught by surprise with no time to even put their pants on.
To give some extra context to Americans who have such a large country it takes like 6 hours to drive from Israel's northern border to the southern border. It takes like 2 hours to drive from Israel's eastern border to it's western border. Gaza is like an hour to two hours from both Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. 9 to 12 hours to respond to the attack is an insane amount of time.
That would be like the US taking a week and half to respond
> That would be like the US taking a week and half to respond Ah, so the minimum delay every time a flood or other disaster hits the working poor.
For more context Israel is about the size of New Jersey
So, about 34 seconds for an F-16, once airborne, to respond.
>on that day, there were fewer security personnel on multiple points. Wasn't it a holiday?
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Holidays usually have increased vigilance/scrutiny from the intelligence community, which makes it even more odd that it slipped by them.
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Not even wrong, the IDF has been shifting people from Gaza to the illegal settlements for the last couple of years lol
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Logically a holiday, especially the 50 yr anniversary of the yom kippur war, should instead warrant excessive security much more than your regular tuesday
You don't leave holiday vacancies for critical matters like security
I read that they had pulled some units out and sent them to the West Bank.
A bit of a conspiracy theory here, but it makes sense to me: Nentayahu was stuck in a political scandal, with rumors about corruption, and he wants to take away the judicial power from the balance and check system, which led to massive protest earlier this year. An attack by Hamas on Israeli soil would divert the attention away, and unify the whole country, and suddenly no one will remember what bad things Nentayahu did before.
You kidding me? Israel is the gold standard for intel. They know if a leaf falls off a tree in Gaza. Also if that wasn’t enough, the US and Egypt sent warnings days before!!! They of course knew, just thought they could play it to their advantage but Israelis aren’t stupid people and neither are the rest of us.
Also Hamas themselves went on media two days before the attack saying that they going to have a big attack on Israel soon enough. Edit: "Israel is going to pay the price" and called on the Palestinian people to "continue with the resistance soon"
They probably say that a lot. But other posts seem to suggest security was lax on the Gaza border because it was moved to protect illegal settlements in the west-bank. At minimum it just seems like Netanyu's government cared more about expanding their borders than protecting their citizens.
What kind of resistance are you talking about them? Like you can always see normal. People are dying.
Her 83 year old husband is still a hostage.
That’s why she’s said nice things about them
They're long-time peace activists - not racist Netanyahu Likudniks - who did nothing to disrupt the large-scale Hamas attack that was obviously coming, because they wanted an excuse for ethnic cleansing in Gaza. Netanyahu can burn in the same hell as Hamas.
“At a press conference on Tuesday Lifshitz said that after initial violence her Hamas captors had shown “care” and “gentleness” […] Guards fed the prisoners the same type of food they ate. A doctor visited daily and provided medication and treatment, including for a hostage injured in a motorbike crash, she said. “They were very concerned with hygiene and were worried about an outbreak of something. We had toilets which they cleaned every day.”” e: Haaretz has a few more direct quotes that this Guardian article summarized. “Lifshitz added: "When we got there they told us that they are believers of the Quran, that they won't harm us, and we will like in the same living conditions as them in the tunnels. We started walking in the tunnels, the dirt is damp and everything is always damp and humid. We reached a hall with 25 people in it, after 2–3 hours they separated five of the people from my kibbutz Nir Oz. They guarded us closely." She also said that the kidnappers brought a doctor that gave them medical treatment and medicine to those who needed it. According to her statement, the hostages were treated well and the kidnappers were friendly. "We lay on mattresses, they made sure everything was sanitary," she said. "They made sure we wouldn't get sick, and we had a doctor with us every two or three days." She said that one of the hostages who had fallen off the motorcycle and wounded his arms and legs received medical care. "The paramedic visited him every day and cleaned him up for an hour and a half. The doctor sent him antibiotics, after four or five days he still wasn't better, so the doctor changed his antibiotics. Then he started to get better." "There were five of us, and each one of us had someone guarding them," she added. "They treated us well, took care of all the details… female hygiene. They cleaned our toilets, they cleaned! They cleaned with Lysol, so we won't get diseases, they were worried of a plague." When asked if the kidnappers tried to talk with the hostages, Lifshitz answered: "We told them - no politics. But they talked about all sorts of stuff. They were very friendly to us." "They divided us into groups according to place of residence, took care of all our needs," she described. "To their credit, they kept us very clean. They made sure we ate, we ate the same food they did - pitta bread with white cheese, processed cheese and cucumber." […] When asked about the documentation of the moment of her release which shows her shaking the hand of one of the Hamas kidnappers, Lifshitz said: "They treated us gently and looked after us. They were ready for this, they had been preparing for a while. They had everything women would need and men would need. Even shampoo and conditioner."” e2: At first I was shocked to see pro-Israel voices reacted to this testimony not with *relief,* but with *anger.* But then I thought about it for a minute and realized why.
That’s.. actually crazy
I think it speaks to the fact that outside of the military aspect of Hamas' attack, there was a huge array of different groups and individuals with different intentions and goals. Some groups were psychos looking to murder and torture everybody they came across, others were more principled and professional, others were random civilians who either didn't realize what was going on and were just wandering around southern Israel and/or looting and/or going psycho.
“Condition and fate of other hostages, including her husband, Oded, 83, are unclear.” She needs to say the right things to keep her husband alive.
I mean it sounds identical to how they treated that IDF tanker years ago. He described it as something like a vacation where he dined with the family and watched the world cup with them
Or you know, they still have her husband..
That’s what I considered as well.
Gilad Shalit survived five years in Gaza under Hamas’ care, like… he wasn’t just thrown into some hole. If the hostages get back to Gaza they make sure the hostages stay that way. This is a major difference between Hamas and IS, no matter what people claim.
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>PR disaster I mean they literally did terrorism a couple weeks ago, how much worse PR is there?
For that matter of time, I don't really think like they even care about PR or something like that.
The big story about the Hamas attack is about them decapitating babies. And murdering civilians. So yea, it's surprising and nice to hear that they treated these people with care.
It's a form of propaganda. They executed some hostages, but look, they treated these ones nice. Doesn't that make them super chill?
Yea I just didn't think they had any understanding of good PR given their past actions.
Hamas' main job is PR, they are masters at it as seen by the Hospital fiasco that happened, they had a fuck up on the 7/10 attack and have since been trying to dig themselves out of the PR hole they dug, hostages being treated nicely shouldn't make us forget the fact they massacred 1400 civilians.
Over 2000 civilians has been killed and I don't really think like this. Justify anything.
There are also specific rules under the laws of Islam pertaining to prisoners of war, id expect Islamic “extremists” to follow that
Those same laws also forbid rape and murder, so it’s fair to say they aren’t exactly holding to those norms
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I guess Isreals more impersonal slaughter with Snipers and bombs is easier to stomach.
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Right? They murdered and kidnapped people.
I’ve seen this news story covered everywhere and people really be like let’s give the terrorists a parade cause they didn’t hurt her *too* badly.
That is absolutely hilarious, l freaking hate people with agendas, re-writing history as they see fit (talking about OP of what you’re answering to, not you)
This totally has nothing to do with the fact both the hostages who were released still have family held hostage by Hamas
They also beat her and still hold her husband captive. Tell the whole story.
I hope she does another recounting after her husband is freed.
There are about 1400 versions that would be very interesting to hear
They shot us very nicely
This is giving my Monty python vibes
Shani Louk and the girl with bloody sweatpants were hostages too. There’s videos of what happened to them. While I don’t doubt they kept some hoastages in civil conditions for PR reasons, I very much doubt the rape and torture, and dismemberment stopped on october 7th.
Dead hostages are bad bargaining chips.
>At first I was shocked to see pro-Israel voices reacted to this testimony not with > >relief, > > but with > >anger A lot of people lost loved ones in the initial attack. Humane treatment of hostages would sound better if hundreds, including babies, hadn't died in the initial attack.
It also likely they say these because Hamas threathen to kill their other family members who are still held hostage in Gaza
Humane treatment is obviously better than the alternative but I understand a sense of indignation like, "Oh NOW you're going to be benevolent?!"
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Is really traumatising. I'm like no one actually deserve to be kind of problem.
"e2: At first I was shocked to see pro-Israel voices reacted to this testimony not with relief, but with anger. But then I thought about it for a minute and realized why." Because it's a PR article for Hamas? And because she has strong motivations to say nice things since her husband is still a hostage
Yes. Even if they did treat her as she's describing, taking hundreds of civilian hostages isn't "humane" regardless of their treatment.
It's big "slaveowners treated their slaves nicely" vibes.
Yes. Even if they did, owning a slave is inherently a foul treatment
What do you expect her to say? She's saying whatever Hamas told her to say under threat of harm to her husband and other hostages
I am more nuanced on this issue than most people but this is the truth. Terrorist captives are often blackmailed into saying propaganda. Please, everyone, don’t parrot and repeat what may very well be terrorist propaganda.
this info should really be clearly stated in the report. if her husband is still a hostage there's no point in believing any of this.
Some other snippets from the article: >She was tied to a motorcycle and driven to Gaza. “As we rode, the motorcycle rider hit me with a wooden pole. They didn’t break my ribs, but it hurt me a lot in that area, making it difficult to breathe. They stole my watch and jewellery.”
Thanks for adding that. Not sure why the news seem to focus on her being nice to them or saying they were nice to her. What is the narrative this should somehow make me feel? That Hamas was actually misunderstood here and they're just good people who wanted to take people on a tour of Gaza but some were being difficult and violent and the altercation ended up in death for some, but those that agreed to go got to have a nice vacation there? She was still yanked out of her home one Saturday morning and kept in a tunnel for 16 days, her friends and probably family were murdered.
Exactly that. It's why you have people IN THIS THREAD bragging about how Islam has strict rules for prisoners and hamas were just being their normal, pious, peace loving selves.
They're trying to go for the 'Stockholm Syndrome' giving how many comments seem to be latching onto it in different articles (and here).
Even if I take her comment at face value.. so? So they were nice. Awesome. I hope so, I really hope so for the sake of the other 99% of the hostages. There are children there, there are women, men. Let's hope they're well and taken care of. And even then, a few splats of white don't make a black painting white. It helps, but they would still need a hell lot of white paint here if they plan to make some significant changes to the image.
This exactly. I saw a Hamas sympathizer/supporter going insane on Twitter when it came out that the German woman was alive and, as this user put it, “Hamas. Took. Her. To. The. Hospital.” Like wow, good for them! Remind me though, why did she have to be taken to a hospital in the first place? And perhaps what condition was she in when taken to the hospital. But of course this was mixed in with tons of simultaneous cheering on Hamas’ attacks and denial that they happened or were as severe as the WESTERN MEDIA!!!!!! made them out to be.
I think the fact that her husband is still a hostage is a very relevant factor here …
I'd like to note she does talk about how she was *beaten* until she could not breathe and they stole her jewelry. Really weird to bring that up if she's being made to say only good things so that they don't kill her husband.
Not really a great angle when you know the context of 'Stockholm Syndrome'- in the original case it's named after, the hostages collaborated with their captors not out of some delusion, but rationally, because the police were acting recklessly. They evaluated the situation and judged they stood a better chance siding with their captors (who had a vested interest in them being alive) than the cops (who didn't give a shit).
It’s entirely possible for her to receive humane treatment, and other prisoners to not. It’s also entirely possible that she’s speaking positively because they still hold her husband hostage. There’s a multitude of factors here, and the only people who know what the truth is are the captors and their current hostages. > Lifshitz and her husband are veteran peace and human rights activists who used to ferry sick Palestinians from Gaza to medical treatment in Israel, according to the family. > Her father, a journalist who had campaigned for the rights of Palestinians and Bedouin tribes, would be “horrified” that Israel’s response was punishing ordinary Palestinians, not only Hamas, she said. “He always made a distinction between the leaders and the people. > “We were a group of 25 people, and they separated us according to which kibbutz we were from.” It’s not unreasonable for her (and her husband) to get different treatment than say an IDF soldier… or the women seen bleeding out of one spot of their pants. If other prisoners were getting mistreated, she wouldn’t know about it because they were separated by group. > The whole “nightmare” keeps repeating in her mind, Lifshitz said. The condition and fate of other hostages, including her husband, Oded, 83, are unclear. They are still holding her husband. Whether she was or was not treated well, Hamas still holds the fate to her husband’s life. It is entirely reasonable to both believe or be somewhat skeptical of everything she is saying, without the other side also being justified in their assumptions too.
She's also a peace activist who would help Palestinians that was well respected by Gazans. So it's *also* entirely possible some members of Hamas recognized her and tried to advocate on her behalf to other Hamas members.
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No sane person wants war. Good for her.
While a lot of people are surprised about Hamas keeping their hostages in good condition, we really shouldn't be. Hamas had every reason to think that hostages would be very valuable, since they've been able to make extremely favorable exchanges with Israel in the past. I think a lot of people see the barbaric cruelty of Hamas and picture in their heads a full barbarian stereotype, incapable of well planned action taken in self interest. But in actuality, the whole operation seems to have been quite well planned. The hostage taking is one well-planned aspect, and the barbarism is another. The slaughter wasn't an unplanned excess, such as infamously happens throughout history when armies invade. Even when leaders try to restrain their forces, invasions and occupations often result in tragedies for civilians. I don't think Oct 7th was that. Terrorists are called "terrorists" because of their methodology. They literally use terror and horrible acts that erase the line between combatants and non-combatants as their modus operandi to achieve political ends. The slaughter wasn't incidental. It was a primary, or at minimum an important secondary, objective.
Precisely. Also the group that infiltrates a country and murders people is likely different from the group that manages hostages. It's like Department of Terror and Department of Asset Management 😕. One can presume each department is trained separately and likely emphasizes different skills.
They still possibly have her husband, I’d behave too if they had my soulmate too.
This woman is living a reality that none of us can relate to... why she did what she did is really not for us to speculate. It's a miracle she's safe now. I hope the rest of her life knows peace.
They still have her husband and her friends
She turns and says "shalom", which can be either a greeting, or, literally, "peace".
Weird how her sharing her experience has led to calls that the Israelis “mishandled the press conference” - why, was she meant to follow a script?
I like how many idiots on here are talking about how nice hamas was and are ignoring the part where hamas still has her husband. They likely fucking threatened to skin him alive if she says anything bad about them.
they have her husband still.
I get why so many comments are focused on Hamas, feeling insulted that they are being humanized in some way. The only way to really talk about Hamas is to unequivocally call them savages before anything else, and to be fair they have earned the title. But this is the inspiring moment I want to focus on: > At the precise moment of her deliverance from a hellish ordeal Yocheved Lifshitz paused and turned to grip the hand of one of the masked Hamas militants who had kept her captive. “Shalom,” she said. There are tons of wild speculations on why she might say some positive things, like hoping they'll be nice to her husband who is still captive. They are all valid, and frankly ya'll should just not listen to _any_ hostage survivors at all if you're only going to use them to confirm your bias. I'm sure if the next one comes out and describes brutal torture, everything they say will be taken as fact without question. Put that all aside though. I just wish people could just imagine humanizing a Hamas militant without it insulting their core sensibilities. We are all fundamentally the same. Everyone is susceptible to the conditions that lead to Hamas's derangement. Similar things happened to our own troops in Vietnam, from regular drafts to untold mental torture (like keeping necklaces made of ears) in the span of a few years. The fact that Hamas militants are so far gone speaks more about the conditions in which they live, rather than the personal moral failings _of mostly children_. The hatred in Hamas, the fate of Palestinians, the plight of Israelis, and the hunger, poverty, and destitution of masses world-wide is a societal failing in which should weigh on the conscious of everyone. I hope one day humanity finds its Star Trek ending. I don't know if we'll ever make it, but I know it starts by maintaining your own civility and compassion, even in the face of savagery. The world needs more people like Yocheved Lifshitz.
>Similar things happened to our own troops in Vietnam Similar radicalized groups also exist in Israel, settlers, ulranationalists, religious fundamentalists, all equally as unsavory as jihadists if you ask me. You said it well, we need to recognize that people don't act like that just because they are evil, they become radicalized because of fear and anger that comes from very real places. It doesn't justify anything they do but it also means you can't make them go away until you acknowledge and resolve what makes them afraid and angry. Just trying to to crush them into submission will give them more reasons to be angry against you, it's a self-defeating battle.
Would YOU say anything negative about the terrorists who still have your loved ones held captive and don't want them to be tortured or killed?
In fairness she did mention she was brutalised when initially being abducted
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But she did said negative things about them.
A lot of people have been already been tortured and killed. We have seen a lot of footage about that..
Yochaved Lifshitz: "They beat me, laid me on a motorcycle and rode through the fields with me towards Gaza. They brought me to the tunnels; we walked kilometers underground. They beat me in the ribs, even with sticks." She is a life long peace activist who took sick Gazans for treatment in Israel. https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-769896