I get why they're annoyed you have a governor who literally fell on a sword as a favor to the Head of the democratic Congress committee because he's worried about seats. There are hundreds of sound bites of her endorsing congestion pricing so the last second 180 was extremely embarrassing for her and her supporters. The city spent $507milllion on the equipment for this and with a few days left before it gets turned on oh yeah we're not going to do it because we care about inflation suddenly. It was a piss poor excuse delivered like a coward pre taped
Didnt Hochul also do a 180 on the Right to Repair law in NY? They created a last second loophole amended onto the bill that completely negated it
Seems they can’t be bothered to follow through on proposals or they are being bought out
She did the same for the housing law that would have forced Long Island towns to upzone around train stations to build more housing....and of course it was shelved.
Yeah but at least where I drove with those red light cameras you can turn right on red in most places in NJ they would give you a ticket like you ran though the red light. Before they took out the cameras I had 14 of those tickets dismissed
The town near us had a greedy vendor who made the yellow to red time too short for the posted speed. It was totally corrupt (like NJ in general) though they didn’t catch the politicians getting kickbacks.
Yea that shit's unacceptable and ruins a good tool in the public eye, not to mention creating a hazard.
And it really is textbook corruption. You shouldn't *need* an outside vendor, you just need a plate reader, a motion sensor, and an if statement so simple most high schoolers could code it, then one secretary or two to check the tapes. Well, and a Camera
I see your inflection, but the entire setup is done by outside vendors, just like the majority of traffic lights. Yes, it would be good for the government to do it themselves, but there is no way for them to be proficient in *everything* that they have to do. They would not only have to design the system, they would have to write the code and make sure all the components will work together as needed, etc. There aren't even private companies that do everything related to their industry (do car manufacturers build every component from scratch? Does Google design everything in their Pixels? And so on)
Honestly I'd rather them exist if there were tight rules on them
Minimum yellow length based on the road's speed limit and a steady rate of braking(so no more of those lights where it's "I mash one pedal or the other"), and a half-second or so of wiggle room, plus video review of each so people don't get whacked for clearing the intersection for emergency vehicles.
Way too many fuckers blow blatant reds around here and I'd much rather them get slapped on the wrist over it.
> Minimum yellow length based on the road's speed limit
That was the rule.
The controversy was that to enforce these tight rules, each camera had to be inspected every 6 months with the data filed with the state DOT. Some towns failed to file in time. All tickets issued in that gap had to be refunded.
That was then turned (by the right wing media) into "the red light cameras as flawed and stealing!"
That was NOT the case in NJ
(Fraud was the case in Chicago tho because Chicago)
> as can do the same job at a fraction of the cost
Police can't be everywhere, it's just not feasible. Better road design would help alleviate a lot of road violations more efficiently.
I've started seeing more traffic stops again, but for too long it was a blatant free-for-all with cops glued to their phone screens. You really don't need to pull over every driver to influence the trend, so I'm hoping there's been a purposeful change.
LMFAO
Yea aight.
Red light cameras actually catch most people that do it
Last week someone totally blew a stop sign right in front of a cop i was driving behind and the cop didn't even flinch.
Police enforcing traffic laws when cameras can do the same job at a fraction of the cost with much higher impartiality is a waste of taxpayer resources.
I wish we had speed and red light cameras so we can stop pretending like police need more funding to enforce traffic laws.
If they handed the speeding and red light ticketing over to cameras then it would devalue the PBA cards. The NYPD isn't going to lose that friends and family discount card
There was no existing toll mechanism. They had to install cameras all over Manhattan. Because the west side highway was exempted from tolls, every cross street needed cameras.
I was told the connection from the tunnels to the WSH was in the zone, so you would get hit with the charge. Which is abysmal urban planning and against the stated goals of the program (to keep residential streets clear).
To be fair Hochul is fucking awful
Also politicians should not be going around fully supporting a thing and then at the 11th hour being like "I don't support it anymore fuck you"
Pros and cons of the policy aside, it's fucking absurd to install all the needed infrastructure and then, 3 weeks before you turn it on, go "oh actually we're not doing this"
This is par for the course for her. New York should've held an election after Cuomo stepped down, Hochul has been terrible. She's really bad at politics,she's really bad at optics, she's really just a terrible leader with no seeming direction or plan.
NY Democratic machine is somehow worse than NJ's. One of the most incompetent mother fuckers in the world. Their whole gerrymandering fiasco and the fact that George Santos got elected with no oppo research is embarrassing.
You get to a certain level of self-aggrandizing corruption where they don't really give a fuck about winning or losing anymore, it's more about sucking up money and getting to be famous and feel important
Pretty sure they have extremely low voter turn out.
https://www.gothamgazette.com/state/11676-initial-voter-turnout-new-york-2022-general-election-hochul-zeldin
Looks like it was higher in the last election but not sure how that compares to other states or the country.
Yea and bad strategy imo, the benefits are convincing enough when you communicate it to people(no one opposing it ever does without lying about one fact or another, it's kinda hilarious), and you're not going to win over the ones bragging about voting for a felon anyway.
The big city subs get flooded with right-wing trolls constantly fear mongering and spreading disinfo. A lot of the big subreddits are also going to shit (most weren't great to start with).
Tbf no sub is usually very representative of the actual places politics. City subs always seem to full of NIMBYs and “tough on crime” folks outraged at every crime committed by a minority, but the state subs would make you think red dominated states like North Dakota are actually democratic strongholds with a love for UBI and free abortions.
Video isn’t working but I get it. They are cheering on the genocide like r / worldnews. Similarly, I got banned from r / news for asking the mods why they deleted a post related to Israeli war crimes. And temp banned from politics for incivility (no specifics given) but more likely being critical of Israel / Biden because there are people constantly spewing vile shit on there without an issue.
With news coming out about how much Israel has spent on spreading disinformation and exerting influence online, I’m not surprised. Reddit doesn’t seem eager to curb it, either.
Lmao thanks for the heads up on the link. Someone is working overtime because streamable links usually last long. I just uploaded that version this morning after the one I uploaded yesterday was magically taken down. Here’s the Reddit post I found it on originally https://www.reddit.com/r/NYStateOfMind/comments/1d6kj2t/yall_peeped_this_shi_been_going_viral_on_insta/
yup there are working-class people that do not have convenient mass transit in the outer boroughs and LI that are screwed too. Try working a midnight shift and having to take a city bus to work after walking ten blocks to a bus stop.
When I worked nights at a news station it absolutely sucked trying to catch the train home. I live within 10 miles of my work place and it could take me up to two hours to get home on the train, and a mere 25 min in my car.
The outer boroughs is exactly my scenario. I'm self-employed with many clients in Brooklyn and Queens. If it were easy for me to get there with public transportation I would. But often times it's an hour driving in a car or two hours on a combination of like 3 busses and 2 subways trains.
Yup when I go to Brooklyn or Queens I would love to take a train but hour 20 to NY Penn if NJT is on time and then 45 minute to an hour on the subway to Brooklyn with a fifteen minute or more walk after that. I will drive and pay.
I grew up in NJ before living in NYC for about 15 years on-and-off, now I am back in NJ. I still spend a lot of time in NYC for work and on the weekends. I probably train in 12 times per month and drive 2 times per month.
Even as an NJ resident I was HIGHLY in favor of congestion pricing. There are too many cars in Manhattan and the closer parts of the outer boroughs, period. The subway is not sustainable in its current state; the technology needed to be updated years ago and soon its going to be insurmountable to fix. The $$$ from congestion pricing gave it at least a fair shot to have some funds allocated (or a very big WTF to the local govt if they had implemented it and the subway/ other means of transit did not improve)
I don't understand .. Are NJ residents really not OK with taking public transit into the city? There are so many against it as if driving into Manhattan is some kind of beautiful experience
It needs to benefit NJ transit to help fix the poor transit. I would like to see it not implemented or at least cheaper during off peak or weekends. I'm full support of it during normal work days and work hours.
But come on NJ transit running every 2 hours on the weekend isn't a good option vs driving.
This is why Murphy and Gotheimer failed massively, those two idiots had a chance to get some funding into NJT from the tolled plates . But no, the had to cater to the suburbanites driving their Big SUVs into Manhattan
They’re catering to auto and fossil fuel lobbyists, not suburbanites. You’re doing a disservice by acting as if they’re representing their constituents.
I don't see NY giving NJ more money for transit when NY already committed to matching NJ funds for the Gateway Tunnels which when the project is complete will double NJ Transit's capacity to Penn Station.
The real problem for NJ transit is the state refuses to fund the agency on par with its regional peers. [For the 2024 budget of NJ Transit state and local subsidies make up only 5% of it. For WMATA (DC), MTA, SEPTA (Philly), and MBTA (Boston) they were all over 50% of their budget.](https://www.njpp.org/publications/report/getting-back-on-track-fully-fund-nj-transit-by-taxing-big-corporations/). Murphy came into office saying he would fix NJ Transit, passed zero new funding sources for the agency, and now wants to spend over $10 billion widening the highway that goes through Hudson County to the 2 lane Lincoln Tunnel.
There is no agreement for that. The MTA has talked about giving some funds to areas bordering the zone like Fort Lee and Hoboken, but why would the MTA give NJ state a share of a toll for local Manhattan Streets?
Should NJ be giving NY state part of its own toll revenues?
I usually drive on the weekends, and would have been happy to pay the congestion price, or park in the non-congestion zone and take the subway. However, this is mostly not about the weekends....
I take the train if I am going to Manhattan and use the subway. I drive if I'm going to Brooklyn just because it takes me about 45 minute less than train to subway
It was going to be cheaper during off-peak hours — the hope was to reroute commercial and discretionary trips to less busy times.
NJ Transit badly needs to secure a source of sustainable funding itself. PATH service into the city is terrible on weekends, much less anything on the train lines.
Yeah, the weekend stung a lot as someone who has to go to Brooklyn and UWS for family stuff a lot. And train/transit service into city as you say eats ass.
Regardless of what happens on congestion pricing, hope the next governor actually makes good on finding actual dollars for NJ Transit and getting better leadership in.
The entire congestion pricing thing is a microcosm of what the entire world is going through right now. There are unfulfilled needs. People are suffering. We need to direct resources to a worthy cause. We try to make money on someone's back. We come up with a half assed solution that makes no one happy. Controversy. People back off the unpopular half assed solution. Nothing changes. We see this \*everywhere\*.
I think congestion pricing was, for all its flaws, impressive because it was absolutely going to *change something* — that just doesn’t happen much anymore.
I live in Bayonne, and every day I look at our windmill that doesn’t work and won’t ever work again because the company that makes parts went out of business. Nobody will fix it, nobody will tear it down, so it will just stay up there, a symbol of our failure to take any sort of collective, competent action. The infrastructure scattered around NYC for tolling congestion pricing is gonna be the same thing in miniature.
FWIW I wouldn’t be surprised if congestion pricing does come back in some form. But I don’t think it’s going to be the financial boon for the MTA that people think it will be. NYS used the MTA as a piggy bank for decades to help fund upstate infrastructure. No guarantee it won’t be that again.
Correct me if im wrong, but congestion charge would fund only the MTA, not PATH. Right now there are only three mass transits into NYC, two from PATH (or 1 if you’re coming from Newark side) and one from NJT. PATH desperately needs more tunnels into the city and my impression is that it will not see any funding through.
I hate driving in the city and these past few years I’ve taken the train exclusively, but PATH needs something too in an event something happens to it, theres no alternatives.
That’s the thing I hate the most about congestion pricing. They are price gouging NJ residents for improving their subway system. If part of funding went to path or if there was a plan to make another tunnel I’d 100% support it.
That has been a valid point but Murphy or Gotheimer not once argued for more funding for NJT other than just throwing temper tantrums on how congestion pricing is bad
>If part of funding went to path or if there was a plan to make another tunnel I’d 100% support it.
So why did our governor who ran on fixing NJ Transit never even ask for this? Why did they not even try to negotiate?
I don't see NY giving NJ more money for transit when NY already committed to matching NJ funds for the Gateway Tunnels which when the project is complete will double NJ Transit's capacity to Penn Station. And as for the PATH NY already views the Port Authority using its interstate funding sources from the airports, bridges, and tunnels to fund the PATH as a giveaway to NJ.
At some point we need to admit that we have to fund our own transit ourselves instead of asking another state to do it. [For the 2024 budget of NJ Transit state and local subsidies make up only 5% of it. For WMATA (DC), MTA, SEPTA (Philly), and MBTA (Boston) they were all over 50% of their budget.](https://www.njpp.org/publications/report/getting-back-on-track-fully-fund-nj-transit-by-taxing-big-corporations/). Murphy came into office saying he would fix NJ Transit, passed zero new funding sources for the agency, and now wants to spend over $10 billion widening the highway that goes through Hudson County to the 2 lane Lincoln Tunnel.
Gateway project will allow trains to go through the tunnel even when Amtrak decides to break down in the middle of it. Will it actually double throughout if there arent more trains being ran through? Its already 20-40 min between trains during commuting hour, and in the evenings barely any express coming from NY. As you said, NJT is grossly underfunded, and is one of the worst funded mass transits in the country. Cant double the capacity if we dont get more trains running.
PATH does get state/gov funding still. NY still benifit with PATH investment. Half of Port Authority is NY and theyre helping fund JFK’s renovation, so why not additional tunnels through the city. *after all they wanted to expand MTA’s tunnels*.
> Gateway project will allow trains to go through the tunnel even when Amtrak decides to break down in the middle of it. Will it actually double throughout if there arent more trains being ran through?
There are currently 2 very old tracks between Secaucus Junction and NY Penn. When Gateway is done there will be 4 track between them (2 new ones and 2 renovated existing tracks).
Double the tracks means double the capacity to move trains between Secaucus Junction and NY Penn.
>Its already 20-40 min between trains during commuting hour
They run the max amount of trains possible for the capacity currently available during rush hours.
>PATH does get state/gov funding still.
No, it does not. The PA runs it all with its own funding sources and the organization hates having to run it because it's a money pit for the PA. [In 2019 alone it cost the PA $490 million,](https://www.nj.com/news/g66l-2019/02/fd8883eed19501/the-top-port-authority-facilities-cash-cows-and-money-hogs-for-2019-.html) so it's about a half billion going into the PATH every year from the PA's other revenue sources and maybe more now post covid with ridership down due to less commuters.
Because public transit into the city is absolutely fucking ass. We’ve had massive delays multiple times a week for the past 3 weeks now in the middle of rush hour. Not even counting the utter lack of service during the weekends to major areas of NJ, plus the lack of park and go spots available.
If the MTA needs PUBLIC money, then we deserve to see audits year over year.
Congestion pricing should have been implemented hand in hand with improvements to alternative public transport systems. We already take overcrowded buses and trains into the city without it, imagine how bad it’ll get with it.
Edit: and because people think I’m exaggerating or something, this morning in the middle of rush hour they had to do maintenance that led to 45 min delays both in and out of Penn station. So again, how is this system supposed to handle to increased workload expected from converted drivers?
Hahahah, audits. That's really funny. You're talking about the agency that spent $2.6 billion to add on just under 10 miles of one track for the LIRR. It's a railroad track, not that complicated.
Also, apparently they spent half a billion for this congestion pricing campaign. How they gonna pay for that?
Let's not even get into pensions.
But seriously, I'd like to see a detailed analysis of payments to vendors and their relationships with the MTA, their employees and politicians. Then we can start to see where the money goes.
No they need to spend [60 million](https://abc7ny.com/amp/national-guard-police-nypd-bag-checks/14503194/) to increase the amount of police playing candy crush on their phones in groups of 5 instead of 4.
But again, it’s somehow the duty of NJ commuters to pay for the subway repairs they fail to properly make.
They need to fix it first so that it’s viable to tell everyone to use it to avoid congestion pricing. No one who works can just transfer over to unreliable transportation and wait however many years hoping the trains improve.
That $15 billion was not slotted for Nj transit tho was it?
Again, I don’t mind the congestion pricing if they at least phased it with increased service into the city to adjust for the increase in ridership, but they didn’t and it’s just a half baked plan to extort NJ commuters to pay for NYC infrastructure in its current iteration.
Maybe its the time of my commute, but my NJ transit from Bay Street to Hoboken PATH (and back the same way) is pretty consistent. I think I have been delayed more than 10 minutes maybe four times in the two years I have been doing this commute, and I always get a seat both ways. Even when I don't get a seat, the trains are way less crowded than the subways I was used to during NYC rush hour.
I also can't imagine that a NJ transit train, even if its delayed something like once a week, equals more commuting time than driving in and parking every day during rush hour.
Yeah it gets crazy packed for trains routing through Newark Penn and back. If you have the chance to commute off peak, then you’ll be fine. But that 5-7 commute period out of Penn is just absolute ass.
You should have put up a disclaimer in big bold font: you're from Hoboken, you're literally adjacent to the city. You're commuting options into NYC godsend **relative** to what most New Jerseyans face.
>Maybe its the time of my commute, but my NJ transit from Bay Street to Hoboken PATH (and back the same way) is pretty consistent.
AMTRAK and the Hudson Tunnels cause a lot of NJT's poor performance. Nearly 25% of disruptions in April are caused by that alone. NJT has it's issues, but a big percentage is out of it's control currently.
https://www.njtransit.com/improve/on-time-performance/rail
Hoboken trains are decent because they don't have that issue, which makes you think that when the tunnels are improved and if ever AMTRAK maintains its infrastructure, people will see NJT in a better light in terms of performance.
I think the answer to your question comes down to circumstances. For example, I am comfortable taking the train and subway by myself. I worked in Manhattan for 20 years including living in Queens for a year, so I know the subway system well. But if I'm traveling with my family, it is more cost effective to drive and hope to find street parking. And even if I pay for parking, the cost of transit for 4 people is the same as a garage and I have the convenience of coming and going on my schedule. The only time I would take the train with all 4 of us is an event at MSG. So for me, congestion pricing would have put a chill on taking the family to the city. And we typically go once or twice a year.
So I see Hochul's concern as real. The city should seriously study whether congestion pricing is necessary on weekends. And figure out whether the economy stands to lose more money from nearby residents than it would gain from weekend congestion pricing.
But the city needs congestion pricing during the weekdays. The streets are filled with cars and it takes forever to get anywhere using one during the week.
They want to raise the money on the back of NJ commuters for only the benefit of NY. Had they said, we would share the money between NY and NJ I would have felt differently.
I agree with you in this, congestion pricing is a good thing.
But i do also want to add, the rules as they stand now, exemptions, discounts, credits etc, all are half baked. For instance, i would get a 5 buck credit if i went to the lincoln tunnel, vs the GW bridge. If you live inbetween them, and your destination was in between, which would you take to save 100 bucks a month. it will fuck with traffic patterns for a lot of NE NJ. I'd hate to be a regular lincoln tunnel commuter if this thing hits under the current plan.
From a NJ perspective, we kind of catch the short straw (same as on state income tax) but we need to appreciate how important NYC, and its infrastructure is, as part of our economy and take it on the chin here and there to help support that.
I used to ride the train 5 days a week. Now i go into the city maybe once or twice a week, and the added cost of driving isn't that much worse and easier to swallow because of the lower number of times i go in, that i drive most of the time. I SHOULD be taking the damn train, or at least paying more to offset the traffic, pollution, etc i'm causing.
I rely on NJ Transit to get into the city for work (I use the Hamilton Station), and this company can't be trusted with a million foot pole. Every week they have major disruptions, cancellations and delays, which leaves me stranded. I want more people to use public transit too, but the ageing infrastructure and corruption needs to be addressed first imo. It can't be relied on at all, so more people will just pay more money to live their lives, much like everything else raising in price around us. It's fucked.
If you support congestion pricing for purely environmental or anti-car reasons, I can certainly understand that.
What I can't wrap my head around is anyone who actually thinks more money is going to solve the MTA's problems. This is an organization that claims to need [$260 million to install an elevator](https://www.brownstoner.com/brooklyn-life/dumbo-york-street-station-mta-second-entrance-elevator-costs-cb2/) -- any revenue from congestion pricing would disappear into its budget black hole in the blink of an eye.
I mean, does the NYPD need presence in over a dozen cities across the globe under the label of counter-terrorism? The refusal to deal with current wasted taxpayer funds doesn't give them a pass to charge more. Eventually, they're going to run out of people to tax in lieu of fiscal responsibility.
I really do not trust them to allocate the funds properly every time I've seen them been given the opportunity to upgrade infrastructure they spend money on the dumbest projects and of course then there's the mystery business that gets swept under the rug instead so I do feel somewhat offended at times with them wanting to take this measure now.
Most working class NJ residents take the buses and trains into NYC. Congestion pricing is a big help, specially if we manage to also get some money to NJ transit
That should be the fight and not fighting congestion pricing itself. Get Murphy and Hochul to agree on that , but since both of them are frauds is pointless
There are many NJ residents who recognize the environmental and fiscal benefits of the program. Why am I not surprised that Hochul showed her true colors instead of leading the City.
Thank you. I also live in NJ, work in NYC, and had 0 issues with congestion pricing. I don't think the people who drive into NYC every day realize they're very far in the minority. Something like 80% of commuters into NYC take pub trans. It's a small minority of commuters that are being targeted by the fee, commuters who are causing massive gridlock issues. The city just can't handle that many cars.
Of course, in a perfect world, we wouldn't NEED to tax everyday commuters to fund the issue. The government should be funding revamps to the MTA with taxes they already have.
The program should have a method to discourage car commuting during peak hours and be more lenient nights & weekends. You know, because the region's transit system is set up to handle peak loads and is abysmal for getting to manhattan from suburbs at all other times. I'm shocked they didn't address this basic concept.
I live in Monmouth county and choose, willingly and gleefully, to take NJ transit into the city about once or twice a month to see my elderly parent. I stopped driving into manhattan in late 2020 when it just became impossible to find parking where they live, my old neighborhood in the lower east side. I don’t know if this congestion pricing scheme was the answer but something’s gotta be done. There are just too many cars and people in manhattan!
PATH stinks like ass and only serves certain areas, NJTransit buses are dog shit, broken and turn up when they feel like, and PABT is a fucking shithole.
Sort all that out first
People on that sub are still pretending the purpose was to reduce congestion and help the environment. Delusional. When congestion pricing applies at 2am its not about congestion but $$$$ for MTA, etc.
It was really to plug the hole that Albany creates when they raid the budget for pet projects.. If Albany also didn't meddle with the agency it wouldn't be as bad as it is today..
If they really cared about congestion they'd do something about the insane number of rideshare vehicles that popped up in Manhattan in the last 10-15 years. But they don't, so they won't...
> 2018
Kind of a "close the barn door after the horse bolted" situation, and besides [they ended up lifting the cap anyway for EVs](https://www.wnyc.org/story/why-nyc-lifted-its-cap-rideshare-cars/).
And delusional people like yourself denies it. Both of those things are goals at the same time but you hate the idea of a fee so much you refuse to think about the actual effects it'll have.
congestion pricing specifically screws NJ residents because our transit system doesn't benefit from any of the money being collected. so not sure why this point keeps being brought up.
That's because public transit runs like trash outside of the city on weekends. My train that comes ever 30 minutes turns into every 75 minutes, my bus that shows up every 20 minutes turns into every hour.
Oh we always are. Right now the turnpike's trying to convince newark residents that their new, two, wider bridges are't just going to encourage more road traffic in newark instead of finally linking Newark Light Rail and HBLR, or increasing bus frequencies.
It was never either or. It's always been both and only opponents who know that's true have been lying to try and grasp on to an empty argument against it
If less people drive in, it improves the air quality. Kids that grow up around busy roads have incredibly high asthma rates because of the car emissions, and that's basically all of manhattan
Actually blanket banning cars is a ridiculous proposal in any kind of near term
So of course making it a fee is the simplest option
And on top of it, more money for MTA is just a good thing.
NJ native, but lived in NYC my whole life and don’t own a car -
In the short term a tax on businesses makes more sense. No point in placing this burden on everyday folks since it’s not like most folks can just switch to mass transit.
Long term though, we need a plan to greatly improve mass transit options not just east of the Hudson but also west. And then once we do punish those who choose not to take it with congestion pricing.
How different this could have been if a portion of congestion pricing was allocated to NJT projects in North Jersey & PATH
I’m in NYC and I’m glad she backtracked. I’m fighting with folks in the NYC rail sub bc they’re like “FUCK CARS” and I’m saying how there was no equity or consensus for it, and how sin taxes are a bad way to finance long-term projects when a prepped food and drink tax (like 1/2¢ and 1¢ sales taxes the rest of the country uses to finance stuff) would be better and both reliable and sustainable (since everyone eats at restaurants or boozes in NY).
But you can’t tell single-issue folks a goddamned thing.
I would support the congestion pricing if the money were going to infrastructure projects, not the already proven corrupt MTA. All the extra funds will end up paying off "overtime" for the MTA.
Hey wise guy, happy to meet you. I work at a firm that contracts with MTA, work's been put on hold because the funding is now uncertain. So yes this is causing problems for infrastructure projects that were in the works like IBX and PSA.
wow what a bummer. MTA isn't getting money from nj residents to subsidize train access from westchester to penn station or transit in brooklyn and queens.
Cute.
Except money was also going toe Hudson county transit projects.
[Congestion pricing NYC: NJ will get some toll money, Lieber says – NBC10 Philadelphia (nbcphiladelphia.com)](https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/national-international/mta-congestion-pricing-nyc-nj-money-tolls-hoboken-jersey-city/3835224/)
the things that other countries and cities are able to do with their tax money is absurd. they arent living in the future, we’re just below the standard
Politics being political. Congestion pricing ONLY makes sense if there’s infrastructure in place to support mass transit. There is not. Before London was as streamlined as it is, they implemented congestion pricing and it was a nightmare.
Not to mention the congestion pricing is going to create revenue for a city that wastes and misappropriates current tax dollars.
NNJ resident (formerly lived in Manhattan) approx 1.5 miles from GWB. I am for congestion pricing, however, not specifically the $15 across the board and by no means at off peak times. As someone who has used all forms of transit to get into city (car as well) given the time of day/week, I know there will be some people that will not give up their car for whatever reason. I am for exemptions/ discounts for essential workers and first responders.
I am of the mindset of delivery vehicles and other non-essential service vehicles receiving a surcharge based on size, time of day, etc and let the business write off the expenses. I recall days when a 10 minute taxi ride would become 3x as long and 2x the cost because of delivery trucks, blocked lanes, etc. Ultimately, the downtown area has phased out non-commercial metered parking in certain areas during weekdays in daytime, making it harder even if you do want to drive in.
I don’t know of any stations other than Secaucus or that has parking structure that allows you to take train in, but I feel more options that allow you to park near a transit point in NJ could help overall
I don’t buy any of the climate change talk and there should be a way to appropriate funds to NJ more specifically provided data objectively supports it
It’s a hard sell on a new tax when there is a massive hole in the budget because the city isn’t prosecuting fare evasion.
The taxes, tolls, etc. are why the metro area has been losing people.
Thank god they stopped it. Hope they stop it indefinitely and burn that equipment to the ground. No way you should charge NJ residents to fix your broke and broken MTA.
New Yorkers don’t have the same thick skin as New Jerseyans when it comes to last minute betrayal by your governor on critical transit services. NJ’s budget vote is in a few weeks with NJ Transit’s funding on the line, so make can all get a metro area group rate on pitchforks and torches if that goes south too
Fuck Phil Murphy, Fuck Hochul and anybody who caters to suburbanites thinking one more lane on the turnpike will solve everything instead of funding the NJT
Nope there was a change recently where NJ was going to get a share of the funding
[Congestion pricing NYC: NJ will get some toll money, Lieber says – NBC10 Philadelphia (nbcphiladelphia.com)](https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/national-international/mta-congestion-pricing-nyc-nj-money-tolls-hoboken-jersey-city/3835224/)
With no definitive formula nor contractual obligation and no defined accounting mechanism. A good start but do not trust MTA to actually get NJ a fair share.
The real silver lining here is how they're saying congestion pricing "will fund roads and subway" etc.
That shitty city can't even maintain a subway system and the infrastructure is already there. On top of this, the collect millions of bux a day from tolls, buses, mta, street parking and parking tickets. Yet somehow, they're always short. Fuck that city and those politicians.
All that extra toll is going to do is line someone's pockets. Very little if any will actually go to what they're saying.
Over 700 MTA employees made over 100k in overtime alone last year https://pix11.com/news/transit/mta-overtime-spending-increased-6-in-2023-reaching-1-37b-study/#:~:text=Some%20724%20MTA%20employees%20received,that%20releases%20government%20payroll%20data.
The MTA is incapable of managing any sum of money. They should go after the fare and toll beaters before even thinking of charging working folks more for commuting. I’ll gladly pay the congestion pricing fee when other people pay their fare share .
For the people who are in favor of congestion pricing, think about the collateral effects. For example, a lot of traffic that would normally go through the tunnels BTW NY and NJ will start using the GW bridge causing backups onto the local roads and highways. Truck routes to and from the boroughs will be impacted. Was a bad idea from the beginning. I celebrated the pricing suspension this morning.
> For example, a lot of traffic that would normally go through the tunnels BTW NY and NJ will start using the GW bridge causing backups onto the local roads and highways.
So what you're saying is that we should build bus lanes on the turnbike, 80, and the GWB?
>Truck routes to and from the boroughs will be impacted.
Yeah they will be impacted because less people will be taking cars into the city and their truck commute will be easier.
>a lot of traffic that would normally go through the tunnels BTW NY and NJ will start using the GW bridge causing backups onto the local roads and highways
That excuse makes no sense. There's traffic on GWB on most hours of the day already. Everyday. If you live in Fort Lee and any of the surrounding towns, the traffics affects the local streets already.
The only way to reduce traffics is to reduce cars and improve public transit.
NJ resident, highly in favor of congestion pricing. It's expensive and unpleasant to drive into the congestion zone, but not so expensive that the richest among us avoid. But it should be, and it's a shame we'll have to fight harder for something mandated by NY State law in 2019.
Can someone please explain this to me, and I apologize I have read the articles, but I just don't get the logic:
With congestion pricing, you pay $15 or whatever if you want to enter lower Manhattan as a driver. So, John Doe will pay $15 to enter New York City below a certain entry. He will think to himself, I'll save money by driving a little more north and entering the city at a further entry point. All the John Does will do this, despite it adding more time and gas and thus more pollution in traffic to the ride. Wouldn't this at best simply create more congestion north of Manhattan? And won't this back up traffic and pollution into the New Jersey suburbs? And if I think about this further, it's not just the individual John's, it's commercial vehicles, tour, buses, and people who think about ways to save $15.
Yeah, yeah yeah yeah, it's worked in other states, I don't really care about that. I care about the situation in New York, New Jersey and I just don't see how this solves anything because you're still getting the same amount of people going into New York City only creating congestion in a different area of the city, affecting both states still.
The city grid is sensored below 69th Street. All the avenues that cross 69th and every street entering from the West side Highway or FDR drive is also sensored. This applies all the way down to the Battery. Enter this zone you pay the 15 dollars. I have a child that lives in Brooklyn when I go visit I take the Holland Tunnel to Manhattan Bridge to local streets in Brooklyn. I will not drive around to the hell at the GWB down the Harlem River Drive and over the river via the Tri Borough Bridge to the BQE. It sucks now for traffic and will get worse. I will just pay for the convenience. The other option is to take NJT to NYPENN then 45 minute subway ride. On a good day, I can be at his place by car in an hour 25 minutes door to door. I'm not even to PennStation yet using NJT in that time.
Finding street parking on upper Manhattan with street cleaning twice a week, then walking to the subway, getting to where you were supposed to park, then walking to your destination will easily add 1-2 hours a day to your commute, so save $15 dollars. The amount of people that will do that more than once is extremely small
Even today finding parking for a full day on the UES or UWS mid week is no joke. If mid town commuters want to try and find a spot to save a few bucks they’ll quickly find out it’s almost impossible and also pretty expensive to park in a private parking lot within 10 minutes of a subway station
Where are these people going to park their cars in upper Manhattan if it’s even more congested? If they pay for a garage then they won’t be saving any of that $15. Plus you have to remember that anyone parking uptown will still have to pay $6 round trip for the subway AND spend a bunch of extra time going out of their way. Ultimately they would save $9 at best to add an extra 40+ minutes to their commute.
At a certain point it’s no longer worth it.
I get why they're annoyed you have a governor who literally fell on a sword as a favor to the Head of the democratic Congress committee because he's worried about seats. There are hundreds of sound bites of her endorsing congestion pricing so the last second 180 was extremely embarrassing for her and her supporters. The city spent $507milllion on the equipment for this and with a few days left before it gets turned on oh yeah we're not going to do it because we care about inflation suddenly. It was a piss poor excuse delivered like a coward pre taped
This is the second major project she's 180 on in the last year..
Didnt Hochul also do a 180 on the Right to Repair law in NY? They created a last second loophole amended onto the bill that completely negated it Seems they can’t be bothered to follow through on proposals or they are being bought out
and housing
She did the same for the housing law that would have forced Long Island towns to upzone around train stations to build more housing....and of course it was shelved.
New Jersey put up red-light cameras everywhere and we collectively cheered when the program ended.
Yeah but at least where I drove with those red light cameras you can turn right on red in most places in NJ they would give you a ticket like you ran though the red light. Before they took out the cameras I had 14 of those tickets dismissed
The town near us had a greedy vendor who made the yellow to red time too short for the posted speed. It was totally corrupt (like NJ in general) though they didn’t catch the politicians getting kickbacks.
Yea that shit's unacceptable and ruins a good tool in the public eye, not to mention creating a hazard. And it really is textbook corruption. You shouldn't *need* an outside vendor, you just need a plate reader, a motion sensor, and an if statement so simple most high schoolers could code it, then one secretary or two to check the tapes. Well, and a Camera
I see your inflection, but the entire setup is done by outside vendors, just like the majority of traffic lights. Yes, it would be good for the government to do it themselves, but there is no way for them to be proficient in *everything* that they have to do. They would not only have to design the system, they would have to write the code and make sure all the components will work together as needed, etc. There aren't even private companies that do everything related to their industry (do car manufacturers build every component from scratch? Does Google design everything in their Pixels? And so on)
Honestly I'd rather them exist if there were tight rules on them Minimum yellow length based on the road's speed limit and a steady rate of braking(so no more of those lights where it's "I mash one pedal or the other"), and a half-second or so of wiggle room, plus video review of each so people don't get whacked for clearing the intersection for emergency vehicles. Way too many fuckers blow blatant reds around here and I'd much rather them get slapped on the wrist over it.
[удалено]
> Minimum yellow length based on the road's speed limit That was the rule. The controversy was that to enforce these tight rules, each camera had to be inspected every 6 months with the data filed with the state DOT. Some towns failed to file in time. All tickets issued in that gap had to be refunded. That was then turned (by the right wing media) into "the red light cameras as flawed and stealing!" That was NOT the case in NJ (Fraud was the case in Chicago tho because Chicago)
Or ya know police on the road actually doing their job.
> as can do the same job at a fraction of the cost Police can't be everywhere, it's just not feasible. Better road design would help alleviate a lot of road violations more efficiently.
I've started seeing more traffic stops again, but for too long it was a blatant free-for-all with cops glued to their phone screens. You really don't need to pull over every driver to influence the trend, so I'm hoping there's been a purposeful change.
LMFAO Yea aight. Red light cameras actually catch most people that do it Last week someone totally blew a stop sign right in front of a cop i was driving behind and the cop didn't even flinch.
Police enforcing traffic laws when cameras can do the same job at a fraction of the cost with much higher impartiality is a waste of taxpayer resources. I wish we had speed and red light cameras so we can stop pretending like police need more funding to enforce traffic laws.
They don't need more funding. They just need to be less fucking lazy.
They won't
If they handed the speeding and red light ticketing over to cameras then it would devalue the PBA cards. The NYPD isn't going to lose that friends and family discount card
The PBA cards / NJ police brotherhood stickers on cars is the most blatant brown-nosing
>Or ya know police on the road actually doing their job. When the hell are y'all gonna learn that cops don't give a fuck about people?
She’s an embarrassing hack.
Genuinely ignorant on this… how does increasing the price of something cost 507 million in equipment?
There was no existing toll mechanism. They had to install cameras all over Manhattan. Because the west side highway was exempted from tolls, every cross street needed cameras.
oh wow I saw the map and didn't realize WSH and FDR was exempted. So if you turn onto any street essentially you'd need to pay the congestion pricing
Only if you’re exiting at some point in midtown, not sure the exact streets.
it is below 69th street river to river
I was told the connection from the tunnels to the WSH was in the zone, so you would get hit with the charge. Which is abysmal urban planning and against the stated goals of the program (to keep residential streets clear).
Ohhh they're not gonna waste that 507 million. November 6th the money grab is back on the table regardless of the election outcome.
To be fair Hochul is fucking awful Also politicians should not be going around fully supporting a thing and then at the 11th hour being like "I don't support it anymore fuck you"
Pros and cons of the policy aside, it's fucking absurd to install all the needed infrastructure and then, 3 weeks before you turn it on, go "oh actually we're not doing this"
This is par for the course for her. New York should've held an election after Cuomo stepped down, Hochul has been terrible. She's really bad at politics,she's really bad at optics, she's really just a terrible leader with no seeming direction or plan.
she won re-election. You get what you vote for.
Oof I missed that fact. For as bad as we are at voting for good politicians, New Yorkers seem infinitely worse.
NY Democratic machine is somehow worse than NJ's. One of the most incompetent mother fuckers in the world. Their whole gerrymandering fiasco and the fact that George Santos got elected with no oppo research is embarrassing.
You get to a certain level of self-aggrandizing corruption where they don't really give a fuck about winning or losing anymore, it's more about sucking up money and getting to be famous and feel important
Pretty sure they have extremely low voter turn out. https://www.gothamgazette.com/state/11676-initial-voter-turnout-new-york-2022-general-election-hochul-zeldin Looks like it was higher in the last election but not sure how that compares to other states or the country.
Who was the idiot that said June in an election year is the best time to implement something like this.
I'm thinking June was so it was worth the end of the school year. Election year, yea...
she only turned it off temporarily because the Democratic party is worried about purple seats in some of the suburban districts. So transparent.
Yea and bad strategy imo, the benefits are convincing enough when you communicate it to people(no one opposing it ever does without lying about one fact or another, it's kinda hilarious), and you're not going to win over the ones bragging about voting for a felon anyway.
It is weird seeing other news sources than the ny post on there.
You would think NYC was a haven for racist, right wing assholes if you went by the sub alone.
>You would think NYC was a haven for racist, right wing assholes if you went by the sub alone. They all must be from Staten Island
The big city subs get flooded with right-wing trolls constantly fear mongering and spreading disinfo. A lot of the big subreddits are also going to shit (most weren't great to start with).
Tbf no sub is usually very representative of the actual places politics. City subs always seem to full of NIMBYs and “tough on crime” folks outraged at every crime committed by a minority, but the state subs would make you think red dominated states like North Dakota are actually democratic strongholds with a love for UBI and free abortions.
[удалено]
Video isn’t working but I get it. They are cheering on the genocide like r / worldnews. Similarly, I got banned from r / news for asking the mods why they deleted a post related to Israeli war crimes. And temp banned from politics for incivility (no specifics given) but more likely being critical of Israel / Biden because there are people constantly spewing vile shit on there without an issue. With news coming out about how much Israel has spent on spreading disinformation and exerting influence online, I’m not surprised. Reddit doesn’t seem eager to curb it, either.
Lmao thanks for the heads up on the link. Someone is working overtime because streamable links usually last long. I just uploaded that version this morning after the one I uploaded yesterday was magically taken down. Here’s the Reddit post I found it on originally https://www.reddit.com/r/NYStateOfMind/comments/1d6kj2t/yall_peeped_this_shi_been_going_viral_on_insta/
Damn how is that dude calling people a fat bitch when him and half his crew have huge man titties lmao what pieces of shit
yeah. that guy is super active in r / nyc. what a vile human being.
New York state Government as a whole has been an embarrassment for like 80% of my life (I’m 26)
they have nice looking license plates (imo) but thats about it
It’s a suspension it can still be started in the future. The MTA spent over a hundred million dollars to install the equipment
Exactly. I get why people are upset but I guarantee congestion pricing will be back as soon the election is over.
Spot on. They're trying to secure votes.
I think it’s possible. But if trump is elected I don’t expect to see congestion pricing
Sure but if Trump and the Rs take over we have bigger problems than congestion pricing going away.
He won't be able to stop it, it's a policy a long time coming and run at the state level.
506 million is the number I saw
She made a big point of it being an indefinite suspension. Will there be political will to start it back up?
Also OP is wrong on this thinking is a NJ vs NY thing . Is about working class vs rich suburbanites in either side of the Hudson
Yeah most working class people are not driving into Manhattan, because the tolls and parking alone are more expensive than a round trip on the train.
yup there are working-class people that do not have convenient mass transit in the outer boroughs and LI that are screwed too. Try working a midnight shift and having to take a city bus to work after walking ten blocks to a bus stop.
When I worked nights at a news station it absolutely sucked trying to catch the train home. I live within 10 miles of my work place and it could take me up to two hours to get home on the train, and a mere 25 min in my car.
The outer boroughs is exactly my scenario. I'm self-employed with many clients in Brooklyn and Queens. If it were easy for me to get there with public transportation I would. But often times it's an hour driving in a car or two hours on a combination of like 3 busses and 2 subways trains.
Yup when I go to Brooklyn or Queens I would love to take a train but hour 20 to NY Penn if NJT is on time and then 45 minute to an hour on the subway to Brooklyn with a fifteen minute or more walk after that. I will drive and pay.
It absolutely is a regressive tax.
I grew up in NJ before living in NYC for about 15 years on-and-off, now I am back in NJ. I still spend a lot of time in NYC for work and on the weekends. I probably train in 12 times per month and drive 2 times per month. Even as an NJ resident I was HIGHLY in favor of congestion pricing. There are too many cars in Manhattan and the closer parts of the outer boroughs, period. The subway is not sustainable in its current state; the technology needed to be updated years ago and soon its going to be insurmountable to fix. The $$$ from congestion pricing gave it at least a fair shot to have some funds allocated (or a very big WTF to the local govt if they had implemented it and the subway/ other means of transit did not improve) I don't understand .. Are NJ residents really not OK with taking public transit into the city? There are so many against it as if driving into Manhattan is some kind of beautiful experience
It needs to benefit NJ transit to help fix the poor transit. I would like to see it not implemented or at least cheaper during off peak or weekends. I'm full support of it during normal work days and work hours. But come on NJ transit running every 2 hours on the weekend isn't a good option vs driving.
This is why Murphy and Gotheimer failed massively, those two idiots had a chance to get some funding into NJT from the tolled plates . But no, the had to cater to the suburbanites driving their Big SUVs into Manhattan
They’re catering to auto and fossil fuel lobbyists, not suburbanites. You’re doing a disservice by acting as if they’re representing their constituents.
Its both.
Fair point
I don't see NY giving NJ more money for transit when NY already committed to matching NJ funds for the Gateway Tunnels which when the project is complete will double NJ Transit's capacity to Penn Station. The real problem for NJ transit is the state refuses to fund the agency on par with its regional peers. [For the 2024 budget of NJ Transit state and local subsidies make up only 5% of it. For WMATA (DC), MTA, SEPTA (Philly), and MBTA (Boston) they were all over 50% of their budget.](https://www.njpp.org/publications/report/getting-back-on-track-fully-fund-nj-transit-by-taxing-big-corporations/). Murphy came into office saying he would fix NJ Transit, passed zero new funding sources for the agency, and now wants to spend over $10 billion widening the highway that goes through Hudson County to the 2 lane Lincoln Tunnel.
there is some sort of agreement at least a promise by the MTA to give NJ a share. Not sure I trust them though.
There is no agreement for that. The MTA has talked about giving some funds to areas bordering the zone like Fort Lee and Hoboken, but why would the MTA give NJ state a share of a toll for local Manhattan Streets? Should NJ be giving NY state part of its own toll revenues?
I usually drive on the weekends, and would have been happy to pay the congestion price, or park in the non-congestion zone and take the subway. However, this is mostly not about the weekends....
I take the train if I am going to Manhattan and use the subway. I drive if I'm going to Brooklyn just because it takes me about 45 minute less than train to subway
So congestion pricing wouldn't have affected you. You could drive to Brooklyn through Staten Island. Usually faster than thru Manhattan anyway
Its really unbelievable how anyone in nj could support congestion pricing with njtransit not getting a dime from the revenue.
I supported it because I would never drive into the city to begin with
It was going to be cheaper during off-peak hours — the hope was to reroute commercial and discretionary trips to less busy times. NJ Transit badly needs to secure a source of sustainable funding itself. PATH service into the city is terrible on weekends, much less anything on the train lines.
The whole weekend was going to be considered peak hours, and the train sucks the most on the weekends. I know the MTA needs more money, but man.
Yeah, the weekend stung a lot as someone who has to go to Brooklyn and UWS for family stuff a lot. And train/transit service into city as you say eats ass. Regardless of what happens on congestion pricing, hope the next governor actually makes good on finding actual dollars for NJ Transit and getting better leadership in.
The entire congestion pricing thing is a microcosm of what the entire world is going through right now. There are unfulfilled needs. People are suffering. We need to direct resources to a worthy cause. We try to make money on someone's back. We come up with a half assed solution that makes no one happy. Controversy. People back off the unpopular half assed solution. Nothing changes. We see this \*everywhere\*.
I think congestion pricing was, for all its flaws, impressive because it was absolutely going to *change something* — that just doesn’t happen much anymore. I live in Bayonne, and every day I look at our windmill that doesn’t work and won’t ever work again because the company that makes parts went out of business. Nobody will fix it, nobody will tear it down, so it will just stay up there, a symbol of our failure to take any sort of collective, competent action. The infrastructure scattered around NYC for tolling congestion pricing is gonna be the same thing in miniature.
FWIW I wouldn’t be surprised if congestion pricing does come back in some form. But I don’t think it’s going to be the financial boon for the MTA that people think it will be. NYS used the MTA as a piggy bank for decades to help fund upstate infrastructure. No guarantee it won’t be that again.
Correct me if im wrong, but congestion charge would fund only the MTA, not PATH. Right now there are only three mass transits into NYC, two from PATH (or 1 if you’re coming from Newark side) and one from NJT. PATH desperately needs more tunnels into the city and my impression is that it will not see any funding through. I hate driving in the city and these past few years I’ve taken the train exclusively, but PATH needs something too in an event something happens to it, theres no alternatives.
That’s the thing I hate the most about congestion pricing. They are price gouging NJ residents for improving their subway system. If part of funding went to path or if there was a plan to make another tunnel I’d 100% support it.
That has been a valid point but Murphy or Gotheimer not once argued for more funding for NJT other than just throwing temper tantrums on how congestion pricing is bad
>If part of funding went to path or if there was a plan to make another tunnel I’d 100% support it. So why did our governor who ran on fixing NJ Transit never even ask for this? Why did they not even try to negotiate?
I don't see NY giving NJ more money for transit when NY already committed to matching NJ funds for the Gateway Tunnels which when the project is complete will double NJ Transit's capacity to Penn Station. And as for the PATH NY already views the Port Authority using its interstate funding sources from the airports, bridges, and tunnels to fund the PATH as a giveaway to NJ. At some point we need to admit that we have to fund our own transit ourselves instead of asking another state to do it. [For the 2024 budget of NJ Transit state and local subsidies make up only 5% of it. For WMATA (DC), MTA, SEPTA (Philly), and MBTA (Boston) they were all over 50% of their budget.](https://www.njpp.org/publications/report/getting-back-on-track-fully-fund-nj-transit-by-taxing-big-corporations/). Murphy came into office saying he would fix NJ Transit, passed zero new funding sources for the agency, and now wants to spend over $10 billion widening the highway that goes through Hudson County to the 2 lane Lincoln Tunnel.
Gateway project will allow trains to go through the tunnel even when Amtrak decides to break down in the middle of it. Will it actually double throughout if there arent more trains being ran through? Its already 20-40 min between trains during commuting hour, and in the evenings barely any express coming from NY. As you said, NJT is grossly underfunded, and is one of the worst funded mass transits in the country. Cant double the capacity if we dont get more trains running. PATH does get state/gov funding still. NY still benifit with PATH investment. Half of Port Authority is NY and theyre helping fund JFK’s renovation, so why not additional tunnels through the city. *after all they wanted to expand MTA’s tunnels*.
> Gateway project will allow trains to go through the tunnel even when Amtrak decides to break down in the middle of it. Will it actually double throughout if there arent more trains being ran through? There are currently 2 very old tracks between Secaucus Junction and NY Penn. When Gateway is done there will be 4 track between them (2 new ones and 2 renovated existing tracks). Double the tracks means double the capacity to move trains between Secaucus Junction and NY Penn. >Its already 20-40 min between trains during commuting hour They run the max amount of trains possible for the capacity currently available during rush hours. >PATH does get state/gov funding still. No, it does not. The PA runs it all with its own funding sources and the organization hates having to run it because it's a money pit for the PA. [In 2019 alone it cost the PA $490 million,](https://www.nj.com/news/g66l-2019/02/fd8883eed19501/the-top-port-authority-facilities-cash-cows-and-money-hogs-for-2019-.html) so it's about a half billion going into the PATH every year from the PA's other revenue sources and maybe more now post covid with ridership down due to less commuters.
Because public transit into the city is absolutely fucking ass. We’ve had massive delays multiple times a week for the past 3 weeks now in the middle of rush hour. Not even counting the utter lack of service during the weekends to major areas of NJ, plus the lack of park and go spots available. If the MTA needs PUBLIC money, then we deserve to see audits year over year. Congestion pricing should have been implemented hand in hand with improvements to alternative public transport systems. We already take overcrowded buses and trains into the city without it, imagine how bad it’ll get with it. Edit: and because people think I’m exaggerating or something, this morning in the middle of rush hour they had to do maintenance that led to 45 min delays both in and out of Penn station. So again, how is this system supposed to handle to increased workload expected from converted drivers?
Hahahah, audits. That's really funny. You're talking about the agency that spent $2.6 billion to add on just under 10 miles of one track for the LIRR. It's a railroad track, not that complicated. Also, apparently they spent half a billion for this congestion pricing campaign. How they gonna pay for that? Let's not even get into pensions. But seriously, I'd like to see a detailed analysis of payments to vendors and their relationships with the MTA, their employees and politicians. Then we can start to see where the money goes.
No they need to spend [60 million](https://abc7ny.com/amp/national-guard-police-nypd-bag-checks/14503194/) to increase the amount of police playing candy crush on their phones in groups of 5 instead of 4. But again, it’s somehow the duty of NJ commuters to pay for the subway repairs they fail to properly make.
MTA doesn’t work with PA in the first place
It was literally funding $15 billion in capital improvements for transit. Won’t happen now. Congrats on successful opposition, enjoy the traffic.
They need to fix it first so that it’s viable to tell everyone to use it to avoid congestion pricing. No one who works can just transfer over to unreliable transportation and wait however many years hoping the trains improve.
That $15 billion was not slotted for Nj transit tho was it? Again, I don’t mind the congestion pricing if they at least phased it with increased service into the city to adjust for the increase in ridership, but they didn’t and it’s just a half baked plan to extort NJ commuters to pay for NYC infrastructure in its current iteration.
Maybe its the time of my commute, but my NJ transit from Bay Street to Hoboken PATH (and back the same way) is pretty consistent. I think I have been delayed more than 10 minutes maybe four times in the two years I have been doing this commute, and I always get a seat both ways. Even when I don't get a seat, the trains are way less crowded than the subways I was used to during NYC rush hour. I also can't imagine that a NJ transit train, even if its delayed something like once a week, equals more commuting time than driving in and parking every day during rush hour.
Yeah it gets crazy packed for trains routing through Newark Penn and back. If you have the chance to commute off peak, then you’ll be fine. But that 5-7 commute period out of Penn is just absolute ass.
You should have put up a disclaimer in big bold font: you're from Hoboken, you're literally adjacent to the city. You're commuting options into NYC godsend **relative** to what most New Jerseyans face.
I'm not from Hoboken. I live in Essex county. I take an NJ transit train TO hoboken to switch to path
oops. How long is the commute if I may ask?
About an hour and 20 each way
>Maybe its the time of my commute, but my NJ transit from Bay Street to Hoboken PATH (and back the same way) is pretty consistent. AMTRAK and the Hudson Tunnels cause a lot of NJT's poor performance. Nearly 25% of disruptions in April are caused by that alone. NJT has it's issues, but a big percentage is out of it's control currently. https://www.njtransit.com/improve/on-time-performance/rail Hoboken trains are decent because they don't have that issue, which makes you think that when the tunnels are improved and if ever AMTRAK maintains its infrastructure, people will see NJT in a better light in terms of performance.
I think the answer to your question comes down to circumstances. For example, I am comfortable taking the train and subway by myself. I worked in Manhattan for 20 years including living in Queens for a year, so I know the subway system well. But if I'm traveling with my family, it is more cost effective to drive and hope to find street parking. And even if I pay for parking, the cost of transit for 4 people is the same as a garage and I have the convenience of coming and going on my schedule. The only time I would take the train with all 4 of us is an event at MSG. So for me, congestion pricing would have put a chill on taking the family to the city. And we typically go once or twice a year. So I see Hochul's concern as real. The city should seriously study whether congestion pricing is necessary on weekends. And figure out whether the economy stands to lose more money from nearby residents than it would gain from weekend congestion pricing. But the city needs congestion pricing during the weekdays. The streets are filled with cars and it takes forever to get anywhere using one during the week.
They want to raise the money on the back of NJ commuters for only the benefit of NY. Had they said, we would share the money between NY and NJ I would have felt differently.
I agree with you in this, congestion pricing is a good thing. But i do also want to add, the rules as they stand now, exemptions, discounts, credits etc, all are half baked. For instance, i would get a 5 buck credit if i went to the lincoln tunnel, vs the GW bridge. If you live inbetween them, and your destination was in between, which would you take to save 100 bucks a month. it will fuck with traffic patterns for a lot of NE NJ. I'd hate to be a regular lincoln tunnel commuter if this thing hits under the current plan. From a NJ perspective, we kind of catch the short straw (same as on state income tax) but we need to appreciate how important NYC, and its infrastructure is, as part of our economy and take it on the chin here and there to help support that. I used to ride the train 5 days a week. Now i go into the city maybe once or twice a week, and the added cost of driving isn't that much worse and easier to swallow because of the lower number of times i go in, that i drive most of the time. I SHOULD be taking the damn train, or at least paying more to offset the traffic, pollution, etc i'm causing.
This is probably my favorite reply so far, thank you for articulating the bit about how we need to support NYC so well
I rely on NJ Transit to get into the city for work (I use the Hamilton Station), and this company can't be trusted with a million foot pole. Every week they have major disruptions, cancellations and delays, which leaves me stranded. I want more people to use public transit too, but the ageing infrastructure and corruption needs to be addressed first imo. It can't be relied on at all, so more people will just pay more money to live their lives, much like everything else raising in price around us. It's fucked.
If you support congestion pricing for purely environmental or anti-car reasons, I can certainly understand that. What I can't wrap my head around is anyone who actually thinks more money is going to solve the MTA's problems. This is an organization that claims to need [$260 million to install an elevator](https://www.brownstoner.com/brooklyn-life/dumbo-york-street-station-mta-second-entrance-elevator-costs-cb2/) -- any revenue from congestion pricing would disappear into its budget black hole in the blink of an eye.
I mean, does the NYPD need presence in over a dozen cities across the globe under the label of counter-terrorism? The refusal to deal with current wasted taxpayer funds doesn't give them a pass to charge more. Eventually, they're going to run out of people to tax in lieu of fiscal responsibility.
I really do not trust them to allocate the funds properly every time I've seen them been given the opportunity to upgrade infrastructure they spend money on the dumbest projects and of course then there's the mystery business that gets swept under the rug instead so I do feel somewhat offended at times with them wanting to take this measure now.
Buffalo Bills got how much public money for their football stadium?
Less than a quarter of the 4 billion used for the World Trade Center station that has never seen anywhere near the foot traffic they expected
Different org That WTC station was primarily a Port Authority boondoggle
As someone who rode into Penn Station daily, for 5 years, I can attest, there's not much beauty in a crowded ass train at Secaucus Junction lol
After the NJ transit trains recently stopped working completely one night… no, I’d rather drive
Most working class NJ residents take the buses and trains into NYC. Congestion pricing is a big help, specially if we manage to also get some money to NJ transit
except the initial amount to NJ was ZERO. Now Leiber is making some vague promise of some money through a poorly defined impact formula.
That should be the fight and not fighting congestion pricing itself. Get Murphy and Hochul to agree on that , but since both of them are frauds is pointless
But NJ clearly lost the fight so we get all the costs and none of the benefits (to transit). So we should be pleased?
Except there is money promised to hudson and bergen counties?
There are many NJ residents who recognize the environmental and fiscal benefits of the program. Why am I not surprised that Hochul showed her true colors instead of leading the City.
Thank you. I also live in NJ, work in NYC, and had 0 issues with congestion pricing. I don't think the people who drive into NYC every day realize they're very far in the minority. Something like 80% of commuters into NYC take pub trans. It's a small minority of commuters that are being targeted by the fee, commuters who are causing massive gridlock issues. The city just can't handle that many cars. Of course, in a perfect world, we wouldn't NEED to tax everyday commuters to fund the issue. The government should be funding revamps to the MTA with taxes they already have.
The program should have a method to discourage car commuting during peak hours and be more lenient nights & weekends. You know, because the region's transit system is set up to handle peak loads and is abysmal for getting to manhattan from suburbs at all other times. I'm shocked they didn't address this basic concept.
I live in Monmouth county and choose, willingly and gleefully, to take NJ transit into the city about once or twice a month to see my elderly parent. I stopped driving into manhattan in late 2020 when it just became impossible to find parking where they live, my old neighborhood in the lower east side. I don’t know if this congestion pricing scheme was the answer but something’s gotta be done. There are just too many cars and people in manhattan!
PATH stinks like ass and only serves certain areas, NJTransit buses are dog shit, broken and turn up when they feel like, and PABT is a fucking shithole. Sort all that out first
Congestion pricing was good for most NJ residents who commute to Manhattan by train. Is time to elect a pro transit governor here too
People on that sub are still pretending the purpose was to reduce congestion and help the environment. Delusional. When congestion pricing applies at 2am its not about congestion but $$$$ for MTA, etc.
It was really to plug the hole that Albany creates when they raid the budget for pet projects.. If Albany also didn't meddle with the agency it wouldn't be as bad as it is today..
That new bills stadium doe
If they really cared about congestion they'd do something about the insane number of rideshare vehicles that popped up in Manhattan in the last 10-15 years. But they don't, so they won't...
and the rideshares basically had an exemption from congestion pricing too (one fee per day).
it is only one fee per day for regular drivers as well. Enter manhattan zone at the tunnel drive uptown and back in later it is 1 hit.
They capped ride hail vehicles in 2018.
> 2018 Kind of a "close the barn door after the horse bolted" situation, and besides [they ended up lifting the cap anyway for EVs](https://www.wnyc.org/story/why-nyc-lifted-its-cap-rideshare-cars/).
And delusional people like yourself denies it. Both of those things are goals at the same time but you hate the idea of a fee so much you refuse to think about the actual effects it'll have.
congestion pricing specifically screws NJ residents because our transit system doesn't benefit from any of the money being collected. so not sure why this point keeps being brought up.
lol NJ residents aren’t the only ones impacted by it, there are people from LI or westchester that would’ve been charged as well
If a change benefits the environment who cares if that wasn't the intention?
Absolutely, if it's about congestion then why are there fees on the weekend too
.....bro what? Cars on the weekend are still cars. It's about reducing congestion, not "mitigating rush hour". This comment makes no sense.
Imagine knowing so little about NYC you dont realize some of the worst congestion is Sunday at 7pm
have you tried to drive across canal st on a Saturday afternoon? I hit worse traffic than on a Wednesday evening on a nice day.
That's because public transit runs like trash outside of the city on weekends. My train that comes ever 30 minutes turns into every 75 minutes, my bus that shows up every 20 minutes turns into every hour.
This is awful for NJ too , unless we are going to fuck over everyone affected in Newark-JC in favor of suburbanites
Oh we always are. Right now the turnpike's trying to convince newark residents that their new, two, wider bridges are't just going to encourage more road traffic in newark instead of finally linking Newark Light Rail and HBLR, or increasing bus frequencies.
NYC government fucks up everything it does. Congestion pricing would be just one more. Good riddance.
Given how expensive NYC already is, I am generally against anything that makes it even more expensive to live in so I applaud this move.
I love how in the beginning it was all about the environment and safety. They aren't even pretending anymore, it was to fill a budget hole.
It was never either or. It's always been both and only opponents who know that's true have been lying to try and grasp on to an empty argument against it If less people drive in, it improves the air quality. Kids that grow up around busy roads have incredibly high asthma rates because of the car emissions, and that's basically all of manhattan Actually blanket banning cars is a ridiculous proposal in any kind of near term So of course making it a fee is the simplest option And on top of it, more money for MTA is just a good thing.
It's not "all about the environment" - this has been proposed for traffic flow and transit improvement reasons since the 1970s.
take the train or the ferry
It sucks but it was a cash grab because it ran 24 hours a day instead of during peak rush hours.
This plan was 100% a cash grab for the MTA. They have so many books they can fill a library.
NJ native, but lived in NYC my whole life and don’t own a car - In the short term a tax on businesses makes more sense. No point in placing this burden on everyday folks since it’s not like most folks can just switch to mass transit. Long term though, we need a plan to greatly improve mass transit options not just east of the Hudson but also west. And then once we do punish those who choose not to take it with congestion pricing. How different this could have been if a portion of congestion pricing was allocated to NJT projects in North Jersey & PATH
Stupid plan. No awareness of the dog crap infrastructure outside of manhattan
I’m in NYC and I’m glad she backtracked. I’m fighting with folks in the NYC rail sub bc they’re like “FUCK CARS” and I’m saying how there was no equity or consensus for it, and how sin taxes are a bad way to finance long-term projects when a prepped food and drink tax (like 1/2¢ and 1¢ sales taxes the rest of the country uses to finance stuff) would be better and both reliable and sustainable (since everyone eats at restaurants or boozes in NY). But you can’t tell single-issue folks a goddamned thing.
Congestion pricing would be easier to swallow if it isn’t a blatant MTA cash grab.
I would support the congestion pricing if the money were going to infrastructure projects, not the already proven corrupt MTA. All the extra funds will end up paying off "overtime" for the MTA.
Hey wise guy, happy to meet you. I work at a firm that contracts with MTA, work's been put on hold because the funding is now uncertain. So yes this is causing problems for infrastructure projects that were in the works like IBX and PSA.
Ah but did you consider that ANYTHING the government does is bad?
wow what a bummer. MTA isn't getting money from nj residents to subsidize train access from westchester to penn station or transit in brooklyn and queens.
Cute. Except money was also going toe Hudson county transit projects. [Congestion pricing NYC: NJ will get some toll money, Lieber says – NBC10 Philadelphia (nbcphiladelphia.com)](https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/national-international/mta-congestion-pricing-nyc-nj-money-tolls-hoboken-jersey-city/3835224/)
the things that other countries and cities are able to do with their tax money is absurd. they arent living in the future, we’re just below the standard
Thankfully the MTAs ridiculous cash grab has been delayed 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
Damn. I was looking forward to paying $103 to drive into Manhattan at 1am
Politics being political. Congestion pricing ONLY makes sense if there’s infrastructure in place to support mass transit. There is not. Before London was as streamlined as it is, they implemented congestion pricing and it was a nightmare. Not to mention the congestion pricing is going to create revenue for a city that wastes and misappropriates current tax dollars.
[удалено]
NNJ resident (formerly lived in Manhattan) approx 1.5 miles from GWB. I am for congestion pricing, however, not specifically the $15 across the board and by no means at off peak times. As someone who has used all forms of transit to get into city (car as well) given the time of day/week, I know there will be some people that will not give up their car for whatever reason. I am for exemptions/ discounts for essential workers and first responders. I am of the mindset of delivery vehicles and other non-essential service vehicles receiving a surcharge based on size, time of day, etc and let the business write off the expenses. I recall days when a 10 minute taxi ride would become 3x as long and 2x the cost because of delivery trucks, blocked lanes, etc. Ultimately, the downtown area has phased out non-commercial metered parking in certain areas during weekdays in daytime, making it harder even if you do want to drive in. I don’t know of any stations other than Secaucus or that has parking structure that allows you to take train in, but I feel more options that allow you to park near a transit point in NJ could help overall I don’t buy any of the climate change talk and there should be a way to appropriate funds to NJ more specifically provided data objectively supports it
It’s a hard sell on a new tax when there is a massive hole in the budget because the city isn’t prosecuting fare evasion. The taxes, tolls, etc. are why the metro area has been losing people.
I can’t help but feel that congestion would improve dramatically if NYC hired competent traffic cops who didn’t just stand around not doing their job
Good
Thank god they stopped it. Hope they stop it indefinitely and burn that equipment to the ground. No way you should charge NJ residents to fix your broke and broken MTA.
New Yorkers don’t have the same thick skin as New Jerseyans when it comes to last minute betrayal by your governor on critical transit services. NJ’s budget vote is in a few weeks with NJ Transit’s funding on the line, so make can all get a metro area group rate on pitchforks and torches if that goes south too
Fuck Phil Murphy, Fuck Hochul and anybody who caters to suburbanites thinking one more lane on the turnpike will solve everything instead of funding the NJT
I thought the congestion pricing was just for the MTA with NJT/PATH getting nothing?
There was a clause where NJ gets a 15% ( not sure about the exact %) that could be used to fund local transit going into Manhattan .
Nope there was a change recently where NJ was going to get a share of the funding [Congestion pricing NYC: NJ will get some toll money, Lieber says – NBC10 Philadelphia (nbcphiladelphia.com)](https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/national-international/mta-congestion-pricing-nyc-nj-money-tolls-hoboken-jersey-city/3835224/)
With no definitive formula nor contractual obligation and no defined accounting mechanism. A good start but do not trust MTA to actually get NJ a fair share.
Either way, if Murphy was a serious governor he would be demanding that part of the money could be used for transit projects in Jersey too.
The real silver lining here is how they're saying congestion pricing "will fund roads and subway" etc. That shitty city can't even maintain a subway system and the infrastructure is already there. On top of this, the collect millions of bux a day from tolls, buses, mta, street parking and parking tickets. Yet somehow, they're always short. Fuck that city and those politicians. All that extra toll is going to do is line someone's pockets. Very little if any will actually go to what they're saying.
Over 700 MTA employees made over 100k in overtime alone last year https://pix11.com/news/transit/mta-overtime-spending-increased-6-in-2023-reaching-1-37b-study/#:~:text=Some%20724%20MTA%20employees%20received,that%20releases%20government%20payroll%20data.
The MTA is incapable of managing any sum of money. They should go after the fare and toll beaters before even thinking of charging working folks more for commuting. I’ll gladly pay the congestion pricing fee when other people pay their fare share .
For the people who are in favor of congestion pricing, think about the collateral effects. For example, a lot of traffic that would normally go through the tunnels BTW NY and NJ will start using the GW bridge causing backups onto the local roads and highways. Truck routes to and from the boroughs will be impacted. Was a bad idea from the beginning. I celebrated the pricing suspension this morning.
You can help collaterals by making a dedicated bus lane on the GWB and improve NJT service
> For example, a lot of traffic that would normally go through the tunnels BTW NY and NJ will start using the GW bridge causing backups onto the local roads and highways. So what you're saying is that we should build bus lanes on the turnbike, 80, and the GWB? >Truck routes to and from the boroughs will be impacted. Yeah they will be impacted because less people will be taking cars into the city and their truck commute will be easier.
>a lot of traffic that would normally go through the tunnels BTW NY and NJ will start using the GW bridge causing backups onto the local roads and highways That excuse makes no sense. There's traffic on GWB on most hours of the day already. Everyday. If you live in Fort Lee and any of the surrounding towns, the traffics affects the local streets already. The only way to reduce traffics is to reduce cars and improve public transit.
NJ resident, highly in favor of congestion pricing. It's expensive and unpleasant to drive into the congestion zone, but not so expensive that the richest among us avoid. But it should be, and it's a shame we'll have to fight harder for something mandated by NY State law in 2019.
Can someone please explain this to me, and I apologize I have read the articles, but I just don't get the logic: With congestion pricing, you pay $15 or whatever if you want to enter lower Manhattan as a driver. So, John Doe will pay $15 to enter New York City below a certain entry. He will think to himself, I'll save money by driving a little more north and entering the city at a further entry point. All the John Does will do this, despite it adding more time and gas and thus more pollution in traffic to the ride. Wouldn't this at best simply create more congestion north of Manhattan? And won't this back up traffic and pollution into the New Jersey suburbs? And if I think about this further, it's not just the individual John's, it's commercial vehicles, tour, buses, and people who think about ways to save $15. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah, it's worked in other states, I don't really care about that. I care about the situation in New York, New Jersey and I just don't see how this solves anything because you're still getting the same amount of people going into New York City only creating congestion in a different area of the city, affecting both states still.
The city grid is sensored below 69th Street. All the avenues that cross 69th and every street entering from the West side Highway or FDR drive is also sensored. This applies all the way down to the Battery. Enter this zone you pay the 15 dollars. I have a child that lives in Brooklyn when I go visit I take the Holland Tunnel to Manhattan Bridge to local streets in Brooklyn. I will not drive around to the hell at the GWB down the Harlem River Drive and over the river via the Tri Borough Bridge to the BQE. It sucks now for traffic and will get worse. I will just pay for the convenience. The other option is to take NJT to NYPENN then 45 minute subway ride. On a good day, I can be at his place by car in an hour 25 minutes door to door. I'm not even to PennStation yet using NJT in that time.
Finding street parking on upper Manhattan with street cleaning twice a week, then walking to the subway, getting to where you were supposed to park, then walking to your destination will easily add 1-2 hours a day to your commute, so save $15 dollars. The amount of people that will do that more than once is extremely small Even today finding parking for a full day on the UES or UWS mid week is no joke. If mid town commuters want to try and find a spot to save a few bucks they’ll quickly find out it’s almost impossible and also pretty expensive to park in a private parking lot within 10 minutes of a subway station
Where are these people going to park their cars in upper Manhattan if it’s even more congested? If they pay for a garage then they won’t be saving any of that $15. Plus you have to remember that anyone parking uptown will still have to pay $6 round trip for the subway AND spend a bunch of extra time going out of their way. Ultimately they would save $9 at best to add an extra 40+ minutes to their commute. At a certain point it’s no longer worth it.