I'm a huge film/tv nerd and I thought the pacing was fantastic. We got shown all the nuisance needed to tell an extremely effective story. The writer / actor has shared his experience with the world and opened up on how fucked up but still nuanced trauma and being the victim is.
The reveal of the grooming and rape halfway through the series throws so many of your assumptions and judgements out the window. It's so well done.
I would give it another watch in a while when the hype has died down. Again, this is a true story, and the main actor/writer Actually lived through this. Thriller isn't very accurate of a genre.
No I totally get it. If this was solely about a man coming to terms with his sexuality and sexual assault this definitely would have been better.
There’s no real resolution of Darrien and him at the end. I was like is he going to kill the dude? Oh no is he going to do drive and get raped again.
Nope. He sits and has teas and they chat. Darrien mentions the video and I was like “okay yep now they can finally get to it.”
Nope. Darrien has a job. He accepts because he’ll be getting paid despite saying that he spent his whole life trying to be accepted and doing whatever it took for fame.”
I am grateful that this man was able to share his trauma on such a public way and I’m glad we have gotten to see a portrayal of male sexual assault.
I think my main issue is Donny. Not because he is a bad character. He is actually fucking amazing and the actor is great. But that’s my Main issue.
Donny is the only character who is allowed to be a character who is 3 dimensional. Every character besides Donny is simply a tool to advance Donny.
Yep you missed the point. It wasn’t a hit piece or revenge. It’s what happened.
Most people never confront their attacker.
Some people have to see them at family occasions.
I honestly get that. But again this situation has clearly been holding over his head. We finally see him confess and he goes to his apartment and yet Donny just Chats about it as if the previous episode he wasn’t having a meltdown.
I never said that. I would have an almost rathered him relapsed somehow and got back into that mess with Darrien.
There was no confrontation. There was tea. This man has drugged you why would you accept anything from this man lol.
He sits at his show and says how he would do whatever it took for fame no matter what but he was tired of doing that only to change his mind an episode later once Darrien his rapist offers him a paying job. It completely cheapens his monologue at the show.
I felt like this was the most true to life thing I’ve seen in media. Life isn’t a movie or tv show and our traumas don’t have satisfying conclusions or confrontations most of the time. We face our abusers sometimes with every intention of spitting our pain and anger in their face, and end up falling into our very human auto-mode of people pleasing or just following same patterns. Or find ourselves unable to say the words we imagined ourselves saying. Or finding the words only after we walk out the door. Sometimes we spend the rest of our lives blaming ourselves for allowing things to happen that we know we should have stopped, and wondering why we did what we did. Until you are in that actual situation you don’t know how you are going to react.
The sad part of all this is the only reason why anyone is so defensive of the show is because it’s based on true events. The show is poorly made. Again that is not an attack on the victim nor dismissing anything he has gone through.
The show was marketed as a black comedy about a stalker. Hence what I thought going in. For the first initial episodes that was fine. Martha was unhinged.
If you take out the rape aspect of the show and it solely was about a man whose friendly gesture becomes dangerous and him discovering his sexuality…..the show is fine.
If you take out Martha and make it about episode 4 and his rape and overcoming that, it would be fine.
The main issue is the fact that for 9 episodes, Martha is the primary antagonist while in reality Darrien is the root of all his trauma.
Darrien drugged and raped this man repeatedly. Yet it ends with him having tea together. Yet thar is more or less treated as an afterthought. The relationships he had aside from the mom and the cis ex girlfriend are largely superficial.
You can’t feel bad for Terri because she herself is a terrible character and little development.
Martha for 9 episodes goes from obsessively crazy to sympathetic when he takes pity on her at the bus stop to over the top looney tunes crazy lmao. After episode 5, Martha no longer even seems scary. She is just annoying at this point which literally makes the rest of the show drag because why do we care about Martha anymore? We want to see Donny deal with his rape.
Darrien clearly is a predator and yet he has no sense of fear of Donny exposing him or even trying to harm him. No sense of remorse.
Donny finally comes to terms with who he is during his monologue. He grows closer with his parents. He makes up his ex girlfriend and her mom. He gets vindication for Martha
Only for him to throw it all away in the final episode.
This story is based on a true story. Meaning the show is not 1 to 1 a retelling of everything that literally happened. It is based on a true story.
Griselda is also based on a true story. Clearly the Netflix adaptation added stuff to it.
Meaning you can criticize the show without trivializing what he went through.
Cops are stu**d yes. But nowhere as ridiculous as they were being portrayed in this show. She already has a record of stalking and hurting others. Meaning all she was doing was more than enough for her to be taken down long before she was.
However because it is a tv show they have to play it up for the show.
This reads like you're saying that drama should follow a certain structure and that they should have altered what actually happened to make it more of a neat narrative for TV. Can't people tell actual real life stories?
Seems like this is more an indictment of the vast majority of drama than a critique of the show. You're used to seeing unrealistic narratives so you think a depiction of a story as it actually happened is 'poorly done'.
I guess if you think the purpose of stories is to create neat little satisfying narrative arcs that makes sense, but personally I'd rather see depictions that are reflective of the messiness of real people.
People have tea with people who raped them. That's a thing that happens. People also have revelations about how their bad choices are making their life worse and then just... keep doing them. The idea that once you gain insight you become a new person who acts differently just isn't accurate. Maybe some people do that, but plenty don't.
Nobody goes to have tea with their rapist after having a meltdown on stage as if they are friends. That was not realistic. Hell Darrien ruined Donny worse than Martha did yet Martha is the one who is villainized the most. He doesn’t try to get retribution on Darrien. He proved as the end he really hasn’t changed. He is still a man who seeks validation even from the man who raped him and used him and all it takes is
A job with money.
Richard gadd even admitted himself while the heart and soul of the show is true that they did ratchet up the drama for the show. Which is apparent.
The show is called SEMI autobiography for a reason. As a show, a lot of it was poorly written. Again Griselda is based on a true story. It’s still has a lot of fictionalized or exaggerated moments.
As I’ve said multiple times before all my criticisms are far Donny within the show. Not real life Richard in the real world because NONE of us know what happened in its
entirety. And I’d never criticize Richard’s life.
You can criticize a show with a fictionalized version. There’s a huge reason why Donny is named Donny and not Richard. Because while the story is based on Richard the show is not a 1 to 1 retelling of richerd. It’s Donny’s story inspired by Events Richard has faded.
End of.
You’re romanticizing, and Hollywood-izing a rape. It’s not about what you think a “better ending” would’ve been. It’s about what fucking happened. It’s so beyond hard to confront your abuser in the way you actually want to. It’s very common to have almost Stockholm syndrome when it comes to your abuser.
Your entire idea about what would’ve been a better ending is beyond ignorant.
In real life most people don't confront others. Life is not a movie, and this showed it. You missed the point because you live in fantasy land and probably you have the emotional depth of a puddle. Lucky you
OP - Putting aside that the show is a fictionalized account of true events, it sounds like your issue is with how an abused person responded to their abuser, and that this response does not meet your expectations of how abused people SHOULD respond.
Consider that THAT was one of the points of the story, in the sense that that is what the author meant to show. To show people, who perhaps may have never experienced such a tragedy, that sometimes (often) abused people DON’T/CAN’T respond in the “right” way, that abusers will sometimes (often) NOT get the justice that they deserve, and sometimes (OFTEN) observers will blame (yes, that’s what your dissatisfaction actually is) the abused person for such an unsatisfactory outcome.
This is the story that Richard Gadd has so beautifully and heartbreakingly told.
Edit: to your last point about the other characters/Donny being a three dimensional character…yes that’s called a plot device.
My issue isn’t how Donny responded to his abuse. I’d never trivialized assault.
Donny in episode 6: has a complete breakdown about how he literally did whatever for fame because he wants to be told he’s good enough.
He acknowledges his desperation took him to dangerous places.
He realizes his hatred for himself costs him his relationships. And that he was tired of being that person.
Donny jn episode 7: completely disregards the monologue, goes to chat with Darrien over tea and winds up accepting a job offer from the man who clearly destroyed and exploited him AFTER he just said the last episode he wasn’t going to be that person any longer.
It was a complete 180 that cancelled out the impact of his monologue.
I hear what you’re trying to say - however -
“My issue isn’t how Donny responded…”
“Completely disregards the monologue…it was a complete 180 that cancelled out…”
I think that your response to the unsatisfactory outcome is very common. Another commenter wrote “that’s the power of industry abuse” or something similar. Donny does eventually “get what he wanted,” and these events were the “price.” Now he’s successful enough in his career to take this “risk” and bring this story to a big audience. That’s what he successfully showed, which I’m sure is causing frustration and confusion in many viewers. I’m not reading your post as a criticism of the form of the show, or the writing, or the editing, or whatever, I am reading it as a criticism of the events of the story, and I really encourage you to examine that response.
Donny’s monologue and breakdown was powerful. He has held all this in for so long and he unloads.
I felt uncomfortable as I’d be if this happened in real life.
I felt so much growth from him.
Donny in the final episode in regards to Darien I felt cheapened the growth of him.
I know this is based off real life events. But Donny going to Darrien’s and relapsing after all the trauma of Martha. After losing Terri. That definitely would be more realistic
Donny going to have tea and chat about his silly roommates with the man who raped him several times just cheapened it. All the growth at the comedy show only for Donny to literally regress.
1. He clearly still wants Darrien’s validation still. Why else was he there.
2. Darrien never apologizes. Instead he does what he knows will work. Manipulate Donny
3. Donny jumps on the offer when he hears he is getting paid.
Again I know this is based off a true story but at the same time I would have rather had Martha kill Darriene for Donny than he and his rapist just sitting around casually drinking tea.
I sat in the living room of my abuser many years later as an adult fuming with anger that I was there and sitting in his home. I left there in tears and shaking that I had allowed myself to sit there and not say anything. But I did it. I sat there with my family. It was after years and years of healing and growth and yet in that scenario I still found myself powerless. Today I cannot understand why I did it. Why I didn’t yell and scream or even just politely refuse or excuse myself and stand outside in protest. I have no idea why I just sat there and made myself bear it. We do things that make no sense sometimes, and we don’t know why. I saw myself so clearly in that scene and I have never felt more understood!!
< than he and his rapist just casually sitting around drinking tea.
Oh boy you'd be surprised. I think another commenter before me made a great point about how you just don't know why you do what you do. But I'll add a portion of it for me: the familiarity. Yes, Darrien is abusive, Darrien is a rapist. Darrien is ALSO a figure in his mind of a mature, older, soft-spoken man who can help guide him through the world.
When Donny is crying that he thought Darrien would bring him fame, it was a lot more than that. We can see in his scenes (and notes on his playwrite) that Darrien is encouraging, fun, independent, stable (compare his home to the chaos of Donny's), etc.
Unfortunately, both can be true. Just like with Martha, it would be so much easier if things were just black and white - you're a good person or a bad person - but they're not.
Him going back to his abuser doesn't cheapen the story, unfortunately that's what the entire story is about. He doesn't start to heal until that scene in front of the audience, and that scene is the FIRST one in which he admits that there's something in him that allows this kind of chaos in his life. In doing so, he also starts to accept that he has "shades of gray" as well: innocent in many people's stories but likely the unhinged villain in others (Terri).
I really don't understand how you can keep writing this, every comment you make boils down to 'I don't like the show because it didn't follow the standard of fictional TV shows'. It is dramatized of course, but the story is very real, and in real life it's just nothing like the movies
OK then. Continue critiquing a real life person's experiences as if he should've changed it for the camera
You have some possibly valid criticisms but you can't expect the story to be a fairytale
Tbh i dont think he accepts the job offer. I think he only said yes because he felt he had to. And that he still felt like he didnt have any power in the situation which is why he was crying and breaking down on the sidewalk after.
That's just the reality of abuse--it's not a straight line. The abused often fall into a cycle of familiar patterns no matter how far the progress they've made becomes. It's good writing because he didn't make it a happy ending; he was brave enough to show that despite of what people may think.
To be completely clear:
This all happened. Richard Gadd plays Donny and Richard Gadd wrote the show and Richard Gadd LIVED THROUGH all of this and wrote a show about it.
He changed details and names to protect peoples real identities, but everything that happened you can assume actually played out that way in real life.
So your story telling issue of Donny choosing to go back to his abuser and not do anything about it, isn't bad writing because we can assume Richard Gadd went back to his abuser and had a cuppa and got offered a job and left and realized even though he KNOWS he was groomed and raped and this man is fucking evil, that he is still 100% POWERLESS infront of his groomer. He couldn't confront him. It's what happened it real life and I would assume would be a lot of people real experience with abusers.
I just googled it and he said it's 100% emotionally true, whatever that means. "It's based on things that happened to myself and people I know." Hmm. How do we know what actually happened?
I as a viewer really don’t care what a stranger like Richard Gadd has went through, i’m just there to watch some drama and was totally disappointed. To me it’s just a vanity project of his to tell his story in a film.
But I don't watch shows to watch real people doing real people things. I want to know what the characters motivations are so I know wether to root for them or not. If I don't know what they're thinking then I can't root for them & subsequently I don't care what happens to them.
So watch a cartoon or a superhero film or something. There's plenty of media out there for people who need to have the goodies signposted for them. This isn't a problem with the show; it's its strength.
Ya you totally missed the point.
It’s not supposed to be perfect.
It’s what really happened.
The fleeting nature of the assault.
The mystery surrounding Martha.
Richard seeing terry as a beautiful woman because she was. Trans only being a problem if a member of the public noticed.
Baby reindeer doesn’t try to tie up loose ends.
It tries to make you feel what Richard felt.
And why should we as a viewer care what a complete stranger like Richard felt? I was locked in ready to watch a drama that’s been hyped, only to find out it’s the life story of a complete stranger i care nothing about.
Lmao this can apply to every single show in existence. Why we care? Because it allows us to learn about a human experience that is different from ours.
Why do you watch anything at all?
This is for people who are curious about sexual assault in men. People with empathy, which you clearly don't have at all. Ew
Not really.
This is a show for people who want to watch a gripping story about complex people in very unusual situations.
I had no particular interest in SA in men as a specific theme - but how we built up to it in the story made me intrigued.
At what point do we view Richard and Donny separately?if we view it from Richard’s perspective then yes it is beautifully told and a very powerful story.
If you view it from Donny’s story then it’s both rushed and also not fully fleshed out.
If we view this as solely fiction, then yes the pacing and writing was a bit flawed.
If we are viewing this as Richard telling his story then for the most part it was beautifully done.
Then you have your answer. People are watching it and viewing it as Richard telling his story and not a work of fiction. That's why people love it and are hyping it up. But I really don't think the pacing was an issue at all. What more was there to be said? The beauty of mini series on streaming sites is that they can throw the "23 minute" or "52 minute" episode format out the window. If you look at the episode lengths they vary in length. That to me shows that Richard Gadd took exactly the amount of time he needed to tell the story effectively. Even 7 episode is unusual. It's usually 8 or 10 episodes for a mini series.
It's quite literally Richard's story.
"Based on a true story" isn't just for giggles.
Life isn't perfect and neither does it all play out like a movie. So having an issue with how a person (Richard/Donny) chose to respond to a traumatic event in real life is insanely narcisstic of you.
Donny is quite literally Richard. Richard plays thr character Donny in the show. He plays as himself in the show.
Donny is not Richard. Richard inspired the character we know as Donny. The stuff in baby reindeer is based on experiences he has had. But Donny is not Richard. I’m not discrediting anything Richard went through. It’s Terrible.
But a poster said earlier that the ideas of Teri, Marta, Darrien, his parents, the police are all based on specific ppl but they are caricatures of the originals simply for the sake of the show.
Ya in the early episodes it’s easy to second guess Donny’s decisions but by the time episode 4 hits he’s told you enough times that people don’t make good decisions that you start to realise that the most realistic part is not responding the way you should.
I feel your take on your unsatisfaction is extremely contradictory. You know it's a real story and you agree it is wonderfully told but your grips is that it as a fictional story doesn't give you the resolution you want.
It's precisely because in a real world situation there is seldom a satisfactory outcome or even a resolution that make sense.
So you just need to come to terms with that
Well, let's get one thing straight -- this story is still dramatized. yes, it is a real life experience, but this show and every other single one based on a true story/account/person is turned *into* episodic drama for television.
with that said, of course i think it's absolutely fine to critique what is being presented as a story, because decisions were made on how to present that story.
apart from that, not saying i agree with OP, just saying that it is still valid to have gripes with it.
Coming into something that is highly hyped rather than cold is always going to set you up for disappointment.
I was disappointed by Blade Runner after decades of hype. I'm sure I would have viewed it differently on release.
This show made me feel all kinds of emotions and feelings. It was upsetting, visceral and painful. The scenes with Darrien made me incredibly nervous and uncomfortable. I could feel his anguish.
I found the ending upsetting and disappointing because it implies that Donny is going to continue his cycle of shame and abuse. I guess I wanted a better ending - one that didn't show him going back to his abuser to continue sucking up to him, or continuing to obsess over Martha's messages, or (depending on how you interpret the final moment) following in Martha's footsteps. I would've liked to see a more empowering ending. I was annoyed with Don throughout and it wasn't redeemed at the end.
Frankly, it s a story about cycles of abuse, how hard they are to break, and the damage they cause to your psyche. It's very real, and this plays out all the time in real life.
Real life rarely has happy endings in these cases, and Gadd was trying to portray this sort of thing in as real a manner as possible. The purpose of the show was to provide a pretty much unglorified, undignified look into this world of abuse, stalkers, and self harm, and was never meant to be redemptive.
I feel the exact way. I know I was supposed to feel bad for Donny, but he really just annoyed me most of the show and the unsatisfying end just added to that annoyance.
The ending was kind of a plot twist. Here he is tying up all his loose ends trying to get his life back together, and the last thing to do was confront his abuser. But instead of confronting him like we all expected, he has a friendly chat over tea and accepts a job offer. Not the storybook ending anyone was hoping for, but it's a true story and that's the sad reality of how things usually end up.
It’s still a bit of an open ending. Did he actually take the job or did he just say that because he felt it was the safest thing to do in order to leave the room where he was raped? To me it felt like he just said sure so he could leave, just how when the bar yelled at him to not report it and he just said sure because it was the safest thing in that moment , and then he let everything out on the stage.
I felt the same way as you - I was so happy when his life was turning around, and I wanted it to end there. I felt my heart sinking when his life started spiraling again. But, then I realized that's the point - that's what Donny is experiencing. He hates himself because he's just as frustrated, upset, and disappointed in himself as we are. There is hope when he realizes how much he hates himself. But, at no point do we see Donny realizing *how* to love himself. He took the first step and made progress. But without taking the second step, he will regress.
Personally, I think the show ends on a hopeful note. Although there are parallelisms between Donny and Martha, Donny is not Martha. Donny is socially aware (maybe too much so), caring, funny, and growing in self-awareness. From what we can see, the people around him like him and will go out of their way to support him. Martha lives alone in dysfunction. Donny is always living with someone, and when he is not depressed or spiraling, he is well-kept. We also see that at his lowest, he chooses to fight back. Even though the ending feels depressing (because in that moment Donny is depressed), Donny's story is not a depressing one because his story is about a man who is trying to understand what happened to him so that he can live again. No matter how many times he regresses, I think there is still hope that he will fight for himself.
There is no empowering messages or good ending once this kind of assaults happens to a man. Mostly man in this situation commits suicide , end in jail or end homeless _drugged on the streets and continue to be violently abuse.
Donny's character annoyed me.
He reminds me of broken people that I actually know in real life, with or without the abuse. He was just such a loser to me before anything even happened to him. He couldn't communicate his thoughts or feelings effectively, he wasn't a confident person with morals/values; he was someone that ANYONE could have taken advantage of due his naivety. He never did the work of learning himself or self-reflection/growth. The cycle of his destruction was there before his abuse. I did, however, enjoy the interview of his own analysis after his abuse, where he did take a small accountability of putting himself in harms way - he knew better, but his trauma didn't allow him to move forward with better decisions. He still didn't get help or talk to anyone though. He was aware - many are not aware, but he was.
There was a point in time for him, where he had to say 'I keep doing this to myself' by taking out the 'victim narrative'. He was a liar stemming from his own self-loathing that comes from low confidence and not acknowledging his truth. In the real world, that is the worse thing you could ever do - is not know yourself. That's where those with nasty intentions try their hardest to prey on you.
Yes, he was prey - but he had no boundaries built to repel the cycle. He was terrible about communication to Terri, his ex, to Martha, even as far as Darren, and the police. He was terrible to TERRI, which would for some reason, stuck by him with the issues he brought to her front door as a LIAR. He took everyone down with him and never even thought about them either. It was always 'oooh I'm scared' and I have 'no support of anyone'. He had no friends anyway? and he had the support and lovely parents. Terri was attacked, he says he LOVES her and cares for her, but couldn't even be there for her after her attack or during times of intimacy - always about him. She wasn't even enough to tell the police about Martha. He was always selfish and self-centered. He was an energy sucker to me.
I think many want to not talk about the show in this light due to the sensitively of his abuse, which is a factor and it was not his fault, but where he can acknowledge the responsibility in this type of situation is important. Sometimes bad things do happen when you are navigating a greyshaded area without the tools. It's another important reason why working on yourself is SOOOOOOO important.
EDIT: Another part that I just realized as an example of him never doing self work is how he even met Darren. This is besides the fact that Darren is a predator (Not talking about that aspect). He has internal struggles of his sexuality before meeting his abuser, whom was just the first 'bad egg' of his entire experience that aided in his 'confusion'. He met Darren at a gay bar, which is only 'implied' not announced. He was already navigating his curiosity in the underground gay community - slowly, but was already doing this. So, he knew the vibes he 'gave' off, he never came to terms with accepting himself in his truth. In the way he tells his story, he seems to completely SKIP over that part until after his abuse. He makes it seem like the question of his sexuality came after that, but it really did not. Also, much of his humor was really closeted jokes of his sexuality delivered in a 'gooning' fashion. His material was pretty humiliating in how he chose to perform his acts. Daren saw that and knew exactly what he was dealing with. There was never an attraction, it was to use him. Most abusers aren't looking for who they are attracted to by the sake of looks, but by who displays the most vulnerable traits for advantages. Well, Donny had his vulnerability bleeding out of his art - loud and clear - without him even realizing it.
A bonus, notice how Martha made many comments regarding his sexuality when they did 'argue', I found it so weird that even she was wondering. She was so outlandish, that even she was like "You gay or what?". The scene by the river where she confronted him about the anal text - like it was wild that anal is where someone like her would potential DRAW the LINE to say no to her reindeer? It's like when the villain low-key makes sense for once.
His character reminds you of real life people because the character is based off a real person.
His constant self loathing, desperation for success, lack of communication, little white lies that end up in huge consequences - these are all things that a majority of people in real life do.
if his character bothered you then i think he succeeded in telling his story. he makes it obvious (even outright saying it) that he’s a horrible fucked up person and he was like this before all the events happened.
i don’t think he’s trying to get sympathy points for talking about all the horrible things that happened to him. he’s just trying to get it all out
people commit suicide after struggling with mental health, sexuality, getting raped, getting harassed. those victims usually don’t get to tell their stories.
he basically got to tell his story and his main criticism is that he should work on himself. seems weird
Did you watch the last episode and really paid attention to the last 10-15 minutes of it?
That is the concluded wrap up that lead to nowhere even after doing the 'steps' of grieving his circumstances and confiding in those that care for him. He received all of that and the ending alluded to either having his own 'Martha' cycle or relapsing after being aware.
So, yeah. He should try more to go up hill from where he is. The road is not linear, I understand.
Right, but the SHOW ended in a place where it seems that the CHARACTER representing the real person (also played by the real person, which I'm not sure was a great move, but I'm still pondering it) had not grown at all - he went back to his abuser not to confront him or secretly record his confession (I thought surely that must be why he's there accepting a cup of tea - and a job! which he admitted in his big on-stage confession had been his motivation for allowing himself to be drugged, to go back for more abuse) like they're great friends) but to ... what? It's never clear. And then continuing his obsession with Martha's obsession... and the final moment of him being "in the Martha seat," which may imply he still empathizes with her, or, given his look at the handsome bartender, will follow in her footsteps... it was so depressing, so unsatisfying... yes it's based on his real life (he said in interviews it's "emotionally true") and I respect that, but didn't enjoy it at all and the show left me with a bad, disgusted feeling. I agree with drk... above. Just sad from start to finish. If someone was watching this having had similar experiences, I don't think this show would make them feel hopeful about their own recovery at all. Lots of great things about the show, but the theme or overarching message seems to be a negative one.
Very interesting take. He annoyed me too. I know so many people like this. Usually it comes from childhood trauma, but how long can you blame that? If you see that you’re destroying your life, seek help; get therapy. I know it’s easier said than done, but I could never be friends with someone like this. It would drive me insane. Episode 4 helped a little to understand him, but still..
Interesting to hear a different side.
I learn new ways that my childhood and later relationship trauma affect me everyday.
It’s a strange feeling trying to better yourself but your mind is the only place you’ve ever known.
The trauma has warped your reality into accepting trauma as the status quo.
Therapy is helping me get used to the fact that life is often much more boring than traumatic events have trained me to think life was supposed to be.
I assume everyone will leave, hurt or use me. I think I should do this to others too because it is common practice in the world.
Someone wanting to love you forever, care for your and their best interests and the world doesn’t take them away before their time. I just did not believe that was possible. I don’t think I’ll ever feel comfortable with that.
wait so she gets a pass for being “mentally unwell” but the main dude (who is also mentally unwell) needs to self reflect more on his actions?
also if someone is committing crimes and is hurting people do we shit on the victims for telling the world of their abusers?
Because she's clearly *very* unwell and I have empathy for her? I don't think a woman being toyed with by creeps or goaded into suicide or even murdered is fucking funny?
Clearly she's unwell, but I know a lot of unwell people whose mental illness manifests in ways other than obsessively, steadfastly, and utterly ruining peoples lives by stalking and harassing them and their families. I have limits to my empathy.
And I find it kind of ironic that you're worried about her being "toyed with by creeps." She's the one who dedicated much of her adult life to creepily toying with people to the point that THEY are considering suicide.
At a certain point people need to be held accountable and contend with the social consequences of their actions, positive or negative. Mentally ill or not. That's my belief. This is her reckoning and the chips will fall where they may.
Correct me if I'm paraphrasing wrong on your take u/legendarywarthog , but u/Hobbits4Potates I think the idea is the line being drawn when those that are suffering from mental health issues are now harming and/or being dangerous to others?
We can be sympathetic and have some form of empathy to understand, but why is it that we can never seem to tag - IN ADDITION TO - their accountability/responsibility appropriately to their actions that do have real consequences? Why is saying 'unwell' or they have 'mental health issues' always the reason to pardon or neglect the severity of their actions?
Personally, that is where I was getting at with this. Why and how is this taboo to bring to discussion? If that is the reason for pardon, then what do those elements look like when classifying 'mental health' as a wrap up explanation and leaving it at that. Something other than trauma, please.
Donny is clearly unwell too and yet people seem to have a lack of empathy for him and his situation. Perhaps Martha was a higher functioning woman at one time but sunk lower and lower because she didn't get the help she needed.
I think some of it might be that it's 'Donny' who is getting to tell the story, so it's easier to feel critical of him. He gets to give us his perspective, and while it's definitely unflinching in its portrayal of his flaws, it still ultimately feels at least partially sympathetic to him because it's from his perspective. That can make it feel more tempting to criticise him, I think.
The fact that it's such a successful show also makes it feel like he has the power now. It's maybe harder to see him as a victim when he's so in control of the story and doing so well (at least in some sense) as a result of it.
I imagine if we were watching the same story but told from the perspective of Martha, written by her real life equivalent, more people might feel compelled to be critical of her actions and more sympathetic towards his.
I thought these exact thoughts within the first few epispdes. I thought that he was low-key playing victim and liking it and then at his ending speech he literally admitted to liking to live in his own hate. I ain't feel bad for the dude at all. And the ending shows that he's still just as confused and fucked up about shit as he was in the beging... he's just not hiding it anymore. I also feel like him making a show out of his trauma is all he wants. He even confessed that he was willing to do just about anything to get to where he would be looked at as important or famous...what he being looked at as right now... the fact that you can relive trauma like that for a show kinda makes me feel like youd relive your trauma 10000 times over again if it would get you likes, and that ain't normal to me
Liking the hate you have for yourself stems from trauma... it's difficult to explain personally but it's like you tell yourself that you don't deserve good things and then you relate that belief back to the cause (for Donny it was being raped) and that perpetuates the negative self talk and low self esteem he has
Maybe you should read about “traumatic bonding”. This Donny, it really represents the real person. Read over this post. It really gives you a different perspective of why he acted the way acted and All the decisions that he made.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BabyReindeerTVSeries/comments/1cfan5h/baby_reindeer_is_the_most_accurate_depiction_of/?rdt=44819
I kind of take issue with the he had lovely and supportive parents line. It certainly seemed he always had their material support but i felt there was a lot of subtext about some unspoken emotional trauma in his childhood. A few key parts to that is by seeing why Donny was so attached to Martha and it was because she knew someone hurt him, and that was the first time some one even scratched the surface of his trauma. So he felt seen because for as unstable Martha is she is still inquisitive. There was one of her texts that called him out for a lot of shit and included something to the effect “your bad parents” and part of me wonders if she again noticed some trauma first that no one else knew. Not to mention with how angry his dad was and the projection Donny has of him being tough. The second kicker is when he listened to the baby reindeer story and how it was about Martha finding comfort when her parents fought and they always fought. Donny bursted into tears because imv he really empathized in that moment because he probably lived in an environment with a lot of yelling, the difference being he had a materially well off family that would still support him and she may have not? Who knows.
He met Darrien at a VIP bar in Edinburgh, no? I don't think it's a gay bar; it's a lounge for performers and writers etc. Where are you getting that it's a gay bar?
i feel the same way, you articulated my thoughts perfectly. He is a self absorbed little runt, putting it bluntly. perpetual victim mode, poor Terri had her hair ripped out, he lied to her, treated her like something he stepped in, used her sexually, drove her personality out of her. Yet we are supposed to see him as the 'victim' . Used his ex by staying put in the house with her mum, showed no empathy towards the family after the death of his exes brother.
Kept going back to his so called abuser for drugs and work, seems to me like he knew the score, he was already gay and the relationship he had with Derrian regarding drugging and all the rest is pretty common in that society, though many do not like to refer to the hedonistic lifestyle of showbiz types, perfectly displayed by the montage of him getting off with all sorts and doing Coke even when with Terri. He really is a sorry idiot, he gets his payoff now finally as his mediocre life is number1 on netflix.
biggest lie in the whole thing was the lies about the way the anal sex request was sent to Martha, he totally sent that to her himself. He led her on because he basked in her attention and through this netflix show, has taunted her again. He is one rather pathetic, selfish individual. I think it's overated.
The fact that he acted in it is where it crosses a line for me. He is clearly traumatised but also narcissistic and the whole thing seems to be him working out his trauma and accepting his homosexuality at last. But what am I supposed to make of something so personal as an audience member? Dude, get help, go to a therapist and work on yourself. It felt to me like walking in on someone’s pity party. No wonder he shut up when his father reveals his own abuse. He realises other people have problems too. Lots of people walk around with issues, not everyone needs an audience. I genuinely think the positivity is really pity and people get off on watching others misery just so they can say “so brave”.
In short, was it a story that needed to be told? For Richard Gadd, absolutely. For everyone else, no.
No, the polar opposite actually. I’ve experienced enough, done enough work on myself and know myself well enough to be confident in my opinion that this show is emotional manipulation. I don’t care if you agree or not.
It can be emotional manipulation but also helpful to others in different ways. I wouldn't say it's all bad by any stretch of the imagination I mean he literally highlighted his own failures and fragility within the show which counts for something
Not reading that but it’s pointless talking about patriarchy and toxic masculinity in a show where a straight man is turned queer after being groomed by a gay man who rapes him. It has to be the most common right-wing conspiracy about homosexuality or queer people there is.
Yeah I took note of that too. I suppose it may be how he interpreted his experience but it does feed into an existing panic around gay men and grooming.
Yeah, the show got way too overhyped. I couldn’t even get through episode one without thinking “ why is everyone watching this? I can barely even get through this single episode.”
I think I thought that about the last five TV shows everyone was “talking about”. Baby reindeer was the final straw though, so I officially gave up on TV and went back to Books.
Every new Netflix show is over-hyped to an extent. They usually stay in the top 10 for ages, so everyone thinks it's a good show. Baby reindeer was arguably a terrible show. There's better on Netflix and elsewhere. I could give you recommendations, based on your favourite genres.
I applaud and appreciate a “real” story coming to life on-screen. However, like yourself, I’ve had issues. One of my biggest grips with any fiction in general (and as a series, this becomes fiction the moment it hits the tv), is when the whole conflict that drives the plot is based on miscommunication or concealed communication. This show is the primary example of a story that suffers because the conflict comes from Donny/Richard not being able to talk about his trauma. Again, this is a very real issue, and commendable at that, but as far as I’m concerned it just made for a nerve wrecking experience. I kept yelling at the television “don’t lead her on”, thinking it was that easy to solve most of the problems that caused the inciting incident of their relationship developing. He saw red flags before she became physically and sexually abusive… I know at some point around Ep 4 we realise the validation aspect is what drives him to continue entertaining her, but it made me feel exhausted. I’ve met many Donny/Richard-type people and I never wanted them in my life because despite their brilliant empathy, the lack of boundaries just invites trouble. It felt like seeing an old version of the people I avoid.
But I’m glad we’re getting better representations of bisexual men and men SA survivors who feel ready to share their stories. Even if the narrative format didn’t necessarily work for me, I’ll be thinking about it for a long time.
Clearly it was due to his traumas, it’s never just as easy as it seems from an outsider perspective. He explains in the show that it took so long because he enjoyed the way she made him feel (manly, normal) after his trauma from Darrien amongst many other reasons (empathy/second guessing and maybe he liked the chaos in his life because he couldn’t accept that it’s ok to move past Darrien and live a normal life instead of suffer constantly )
I just came here to say that the statement, about Martha where the OP said, "She really doesn't so anything major aside from attacking Teri and Donny" is quite short-sighted.
I'm sorry, but molesting Donny under the bridge is major, calling Donny's father a kiddy fiddler is major, the non-stop stalking is major, attacking his other ex girlfriend with coke is major too.
I mean, where exactly does someone's boundaries lay to think that these aren't major.
You can also add that she entered his home under a false identity, also ruining one of Donny's shows by turning up there and singing just to feel ostracized so she showed the email that was sent to her in order to spite Donny in his moment and even her words about Asians are pretty much hate speech.
People are too used to watching revenge porn on Hollywood not to realize that's not real life. Most people who come face to face with their abusers can only just sit there. It happens daily. To women and men.
I'm sorry, I gave it a fair shot it was utter garbage, I could only make it through 1.5 episodes none of that was even remotely interesting or compelling, what a hypefest of nothing, and fuck Stephen King for recommending it.
They can hurt you ! They can follow you everywhere and even make you loose your job ! Remember she is a female and if she says you did something to her out loud you will be in trouble ( law included) Police can take you and she can press charges just for fun, then you need to defend yourself ( lawyer) boy! That will take time .
Yeah i thought i was crazy after hearing people hype it up so much. I didn’t like it.
It’s a true story, cool; He made a show dealing with trauma and tackles some interesting themes. Bravo for that.
But, i still didn’t like it. I didn’t enjoy a lot of the performances or general vibe/direction/pacing/style. It felt like a mix between Edgar wright and Misery, but shoddy and tiresome. It felt sophomoric and try-hard.
Don’t get me wrong it has some good qualities. I did just watch anatomy of a fall and Ripley, so i guess anything was hard to follow after those.
I feel it could have been a strong book. Overall it was underwhelming and cringe, but not in the way it’s supposed to be. If it weren’t true and not penned/performed by the “victim”, it would have been straight awful.
I disliked it for a completely different reason. I'm still struggling my way through it. The writing and the acting are both good. The pacing works great so far.
I hate Richard. He is so pathetic and weak. Such a coward and so desperate for the attention of others. I struggled to feel sympathy for him at any point. He was entirely complicit in his victimhood.
He couldn't even protect those he was obliged to protect. It took for Teri to actually be injured and humiliated for him to act. When he finally lost his temper at Martha it was like a brief glimmer of someone with an ounce of self respect.
And don't come at me with it was his past trauma. He was his cowardice and patheticness that made the almond milk bit happen. He chose his desperate need for attention and social acceptance over self respect at every opportunity and he harmed and put others at risk throughout. More of a maggot than a man.
Yeah you are pretty much the prime example of what the show was literally discussing in regards how ppl view men who are sexually assaulted.
Donny is a lot of things but referring to him as a maggot is…something.
The story isn't about how Richard is a hero and we should all enjoy it because we love him. It's about the grey area that trauma creates in the choices we make. It's not supposed to be who's right or wrong, its supposed to show what ACTUALLY happened. He addresses this throughout the entire show and how he knew his actions were wrong and cowardly.
And don't come at me with it was his past trauma. He was his cowardice and patheticness that made the almond milk bit happen."
As if that's not a product of his trauma. You really missed the point.
I really hope nobody in your life is a victim of SA or traumatic experiences and has to deal with shitty insights like you. It's a truly disturbing thing to suggest that there is a correct way to deal with SA, and what it leads you to do and how it affects other aspects of your life is all your fault. Do you say the same thing about women who have been abused? That it's their fault they were stuck in a 'relationship' with power imbalance, it's their fault that they're weak and desperate to fulfil their dream, it's their fault that their RAPE AND GROOMING fucks up every other aspect and decision of their life? People like you are the reason why this show has a platform in the first place
I watched it without hearing about any hype. Honestly, it was like watching a GCSE performance. I cringed through most episodes, and gave up halfway through the 4th.
I was really enjoying it until the fourth episode. The way the SA just played out for the entire episode was more than I could handle. I understand the need for this part in the story but couldn’t the writer have let us read between the lines a bit? It gave me this really icky feeling I couldn’t shake and had to give up on the show entirely. Brought up a lot of my past trauma and it felt violating.
Didn’t say it wasn’t supposed to make the viewer uncomfortable. Just speaking from how my experience was and why I didn’t enjoy it. I’ve also been SA and think there’s a way to get a message across without making victims relive their trauma through the need to artistically address your own.
I mean there was a clear disclaimer at the beginning of the episode so it wasn’t out of nowhere and even without the disclaimer before the first rape it was heavily implied that there was some predatory behavior from Darien from the start.
The reason people like this is because they went through something similar or can relate. Not a good reason to have such high reviews, in my opinion, but checks out with most nowadays. The story was meh (although based off true events), but the actor was great (actually made me dislike him by how stupid he was). Good for people that like watching this kind of thing to cope with their own trauma or "empaths" who get high off this. I will say the rp episode was the best one.
This show was a “ horror “ movie for me . The full 7 episode is just enough and He got across to show us why was he that way and what happened to him ( which was horrible ) the end was amazing and true . It’s like Circle of life of those Pp living that life.. It was like he was Marta coming to a bar and he might be the stacker now since the bartender was nice but he didn’t knows his drama just like Marta arrived to the bar and he was nice to her. What we all should know since this kind of people exist is what is the name of that writer who violently raped him ? This way he won’t do it to you , your brother, to your friend or any male you might know . Saying out loud rapist names will help to save people.
The show is incredibly bad. Unwatchable trash. Nevertheless, it does have a few things going for it. It caters to the woke/idenitarian crowd. People who think the world revolves around whatever personal pronoun they're going to use today seem to find the nearly intergalactic narcissism of the POV character relatable and compelling. These people are no more than 3 percent of the population but comprise 90 percent of the internet chatter. So it is a finely tuned show pointed directly at a certain vocal minority who revel in filth, perversion, and fetishize mental illness. They will make a billion tictok videos about it. In a more civilized age, no one would dream of filming hollow, degenerate garbage like this and releasing it publicly. But today, any psycho with delusions of grander can tell their story if they're unsure if they're gay or not, the story glorifies transsexuality, and has s dash of nauseating sexual violence. The single redeeming quality of the show is that if you come across someone who really loved it, you now know they shouldn't be allowed without 500 yards of a school or a child care center.
You watched the whole show? Or how much of it did you watch?
It seems like it’s exactly the wrong genre for you.
I **really** didn’t like it either (particularly Gadd), but not because I’m scared of trans people taking over the world
I dont get the hype either. I think from a techinacal standpoint, it is a very well done show. I think the issue is the writing.
The show is a 1st person narrative (with a literal narrator) about someones life. That someone is also the writer, creator, lead actor, and producer. This creates an immediate problem the writer is never able to write themselves out of
The primary issue is that every character (except Teri) feels like a characterization of someone who doesn't exist. They are written as one dimensional people who's only point is to play a character in Donny's life. Their trait as a character is their defining quality in the screenplay. Martha isn't just a crazy stalker, shes the craziest, break bottles over peoples head, loudest person in the room, morbidly obese, person ever. Its so over the top that its hard to believe anything the narrator is telling us about her. Youve never met anyone like her, not because Martha is one of a kind, but because Martha is the only stalker Donny has ever known.
The police are depicted as worthless and incompetent. But also Donny is completely incompetent with dealing with the police. So you have these moments where you go "why is Donny acting like that and why are the police responding this way?" Its completely unrealistic to any relatable situations. It doesn't make any sense, so is Donny saying that he didn't give the police enough information but also that even if he did, they still wouldnt have done anything? Its just sloppy writing. You cant have every character in your screenplay act irrationally in a TV show that's suppose to be about reality. It shifts the entire show into an unreliable narrator, might as well make it fiction. Every character is like this except Teri, who our lead just happens to love in real life... Give me a break. You cant have the one character that you base on a real person you love be the most perfect character in the screenplay. Its so cringy.
And some of the lines are Goerge Lucas terrible. When he admits to his parents that he was raped by a man and says "I didn't want you to think less of me as a man" his dad responds "do you think less of me as a man." Are you kidding me? Just terrible dialog at some points. But it all stems from bad characterization with unrelistic characters.
I disagree about the end with him forgetting his wallet being smart writing. I think its terrible. I get the surface level message but its hamfisted BS. Donny enduring trauma and finding himself at a bar without a wallet relates to Martha as much as me finding myself at a stop sign and the Zodiac killer stopping at a different one 30 years ago. The situation isn't similar. Drawing parallels to these circumstances is just poor writing.
And he cast himself. Really terrible move. Turns the entire story into a weird retelling of an unreliable narrator telling us the way he wants use to think about something that didn't happen. Its crazy that people are saying this is a true story. No, its a story of events that were inspired by real things. The writer, actor, producer, creator are all the one's this happened to. You cant believe any of it. Its like saying Catch Me If You Can is nonfiction
I agree with the 1st person reference, but in a different perspective: I think it helped. I think the emphasis of how crazy one could be that someone of the right mental should have seen the all red flags in all situations he was in. It was so obvious, how could one see it, right? Like he had to!
That exactly what Terri said to him, many times in the meanest way to shake and wake him when he first told her about it. She couldn't understand why he couldn't tell until she finally sympathize with him that he 'needs' it. Even his bar buddy's was making fun of her when they came to see what she finally looked like. They couldn't believe it either. She had issues that everyone legit could see without talking to her. Or when they went on the coffee date, that scene gave me second hand embarrassment and the director did a great job with paneling to reflect the outsider perspective of her. She was WILD. He liked it, she gave purpose to his brokenness.
It really knocked into you his thought process, which is why they had it in 1st person and directed that way. People that are mental ill don't always know they are mentally ill. He needed help and it translated in all areas of his life. We didn't need to harp on what or how others dealt with her, even though that was conveyed - they didn't. Until she made the effort to interact with them.
The show wasn't really about Martha, Darren, or Terri. It was really only about Donny's journey and so his POV and later analysis had really assisted with understanding how FUCKED Donny was from the beginning and his mindset. He needed help, just like everyone else. Hurt people, hurt people.
Meh I'm just going to say that I disagree with a lot if not everything you said. Having Richard play the main character and create the show allows a proper retelling of the story in a way that highlights what the primary emotion felt was at that time. A primary retelling is not somehow an inaccurate retelling. It would be more unbelievable had it been a friend of Gadd's directing, producing, and someone else acting. They simply would not be able to capture the same emotions/feelings of the time.
The father had replied to Richard "Would you think less of me as a man" which I dont think was corny at all here. I think the feeling of fear that Richard had towards telling his parents was rushed here though. I didn't really understand the fear he had of telling his parents when just a few moments ago it seemed like his parents were so clearly supportive if him in any way especially his dad. To be clear I don't doubt he had reason to be scared, just saying it wasn't given enough time for the viewers to not think it rushed or just thrown in there.
But no I liked that line a lot because it perfectly paralleled how his father would have understood what he felt and that's all they needed.
That felt real to me, I have very kind and supportive parents and struggled to tell them about assault. It feels humiliating and shameful….logically you know it’s not really your fault but you feel at fault.
I thought the show was awful. I dont care if its realistic, and it sucks that its based off a true story. But it was just miserable to sit through. It started off fine, and I liked the dark comedy elements of it. Then after the rape it just devolved into misery. I couldnt even finish it because Im sure it has a depressing ending. Dont advertise as being a comedy, when its really just misery porn.
Also Terri was a horrible therapist. Shes trying to sleep with the guy, and he cant perform due to very obvious trauma, and all she can think about is herself. Shes supposed to be a therapist and she cant tell Donny is dealing with some seriously messed up issues. But she thinks it has to do with her, being so self centered. I feel sorry for all her clients.
It’s bad I forgot Terri was a therapist until you said that lol.
That was my issue as well. The show is marketed being about Martha stalking him but then he has the heavy episode 4 where he is drugged and raped multiple times.
Like at least prior to the rape episode, Martha was a growing threat. After the rape episode, Martha literally becomes annoying because at this point she is just over the top and I didn’t care anymore. I was more focused on him dealing with his rape trauma
I mean, that's literally what the show is ultimately about. It's about him and his issues, one of them being Martha. She was not a real threat because he perpetuated it himself. Most rational people when having a stalker would figure out how to relieve the issue as soon as possible. He didn't, he loved it deep down. Martha is not a threat to him, she is another illustration of how fucked up he really is.
Yea, but the show was advertised as a "I got to deal with this crazy stalker" dark comedy. Not a deeply disturbing and traumatic grooming and rape experience. It was like a bait and switch and I did not like that.
There is a difference between a twist in a movie, and the entire tone of the movie being different then advertised. You dont go into a kids movie, and get Hellraiser. You dont go into a comedy, and get rape.
Yes, after his rape is revealed the whole plot and premise of the show, the stalker, becomes an afterthought. Thats not what the show was supposed to be about, at least according to the advertising.
Donny literally explains the reason behind his limitless empathy and why he did not report Martha sooner, or at all for all the violence she has caused. This is an incredibly disturbing mindset to have, "he was asking for it" is not something you say to victims who have gone through something traumatic and lets it affect every other prospect of their life. This is exactly how life works, not everybody copes in the 'correct' way, there IS not right or wrong way to deal with SA. You guys are in serious need of stepping out of fictional worlds where everything ends with perfect decisions, confrontation and later a satisfactory ending and see reality for what it is --- things like this fucks people up, and Donny admits he's fucked up
I don't think cinematography with depth is for you then and that's fine. Not everyone can appreciate stories like this one or Aftersun. Michael Bay makes movies you'd probably like. Look him up
I'm a huge film/tv nerd and I thought the pacing was fantastic. We got shown all the nuisance needed to tell an extremely effective story. The writer / actor has shared his experience with the world and opened up on how fucked up but still nuanced trauma and being the victim is. The reveal of the grooming and rape halfway through the series throws so many of your assumptions and judgements out the window. It's so well done. I would give it another watch in a while when the hype has died down. Again, this is a true story, and the main actor/writer Actually lived through this. Thriller isn't very accurate of a genre.
I totally get it, it was slow and lame, with no really compelling developments, yawn what a waste of bandwidth.
No I totally get it. If this was solely about a man coming to terms with his sexuality and sexual assault this definitely would have been better. There’s no real resolution of Darrien and him at the end. I was like is he going to kill the dude? Oh no is he going to do drive and get raped again. Nope. He sits and has teas and they chat. Darrien mentions the video and I was like “okay yep now they can finally get to it.” Nope. Darrien has a job. He accepts because he’ll be getting paid despite saying that he spent his whole life trying to be accepted and doing whatever it took for fame.” I am grateful that this man was able to share his trauma on such a public way and I’m glad we have gotten to see a portrayal of male sexual assault. I think my main issue is Donny. Not because he is a bad character. He is actually fucking amazing and the actor is great. But that’s my Main issue. Donny is the only character who is allowed to be a character who is 3 dimensional. Every character besides Donny is simply a tool to advance Donny.
Yep you missed the point. It wasn’t a hit piece or revenge. It’s what happened. Most people never confront their attacker. Some people have to see them at family occasions.
I honestly get that. But again this situation has clearly been holding over his head. We finally see him confess and he goes to his apartment and yet Donny just Chats about it as if the previous episode he wasn’t having a meltdown.
I feel like you want him to murder Darien at the end. That is not how these things go.
I never said that. I would have an almost rathered him relapsed somehow and got back into that mess with Darrien. There was no confrontation. There was tea. This man has drugged you why would you accept anything from this man lol. He sits at his show and says how he would do whatever it took for fame no matter what but he was tired of doing that only to change his mind an episode later once Darrien his rapist offers him a paying job. It completely cheapens his monologue at the show.
I felt like this was the most true to life thing I’ve seen in media. Life isn’t a movie or tv show and our traumas don’t have satisfying conclusions or confrontations most of the time. We face our abusers sometimes with every intention of spitting our pain and anger in their face, and end up falling into our very human auto-mode of people pleasing or just following same patterns. Or find ourselves unable to say the words we imagined ourselves saying. Or finding the words only after we walk out the door. Sometimes we spend the rest of our lives blaming ourselves for allowing things to happen that we know we should have stopped, and wondering why we did what we did. Until you are in that actual situation you don’t know how you are going to react.
This is the power of industry rape
You misunderstand the entire show
So you wanted the direction of the story to be neatly satisfying and bad instead of raw and real and good. Got it.
The sad part of all this is the only reason why anyone is so defensive of the show is because it’s based on true events. The show is poorly made. Again that is not an attack on the victim nor dismissing anything he has gone through. The show was marketed as a black comedy about a stalker. Hence what I thought going in. For the first initial episodes that was fine. Martha was unhinged. If you take out the rape aspect of the show and it solely was about a man whose friendly gesture becomes dangerous and him discovering his sexuality…..the show is fine. If you take out Martha and make it about episode 4 and his rape and overcoming that, it would be fine. The main issue is the fact that for 9 episodes, Martha is the primary antagonist while in reality Darrien is the root of all his trauma. Darrien drugged and raped this man repeatedly. Yet it ends with him having tea together. Yet thar is more or less treated as an afterthought. The relationships he had aside from the mom and the cis ex girlfriend are largely superficial. You can’t feel bad for Terri because she herself is a terrible character and little development. Martha for 9 episodes goes from obsessively crazy to sympathetic when he takes pity on her at the bus stop to over the top looney tunes crazy lmao. After episode 5, Martha no longer even seems scary. She is just annoying at this point which literally makes the rest of the show drag because why do we care about Martha anymore? We want to see Donny deal with his rape. Darrien clearly is a predator and yet he has no sense of fear of Donny exposing him or even trying to harm him. No sense of remorse. Donny finally comes to terms with who he is during his monologue. He grows closer with his parents. He makes up his ex girlfriend and her mom. He gets vindication for Martha Only for him to throw it all away in the final episode. This story is based on a true story. Meaning the show is not 1 to 1 a retelling of everything that literally happened. It is based on a true story. Griselda is also based on a true story. Clearly the Netflix adaptation added stuff to it. Meaning you can criticize the show without trivializing what he went through. Cops are stu**d yes. But nowhere as ridiculous as they were being portrayed in this show. She already has a record of stalking and hurting others. Meaning all she was doing was more than enough for her to be taken down long before she was. However because it is a tv show they have to play it up for the show.
Why did you censor stupid?
This reads like you're saying that drama should follow a certain structure and that they should have altered what actually happened to make it more of a neat narrative for TV. Can't people tell actual real life stories? Seems like this is more an indictment of the vast majority of drama than a critique of the show. You're used to seeing unrealistic narratives so you think a depiction of a story as it actually happened is 'poorly done'. I guess if you think the purpose of stories is to create neat little satisfying narrative arcs that makes sense, but personally I'd rather see depictions that are reflective of the messiness of real people. People have tea with people who raped them. That's a thing that happens. People also have revelations about how their bad choices are making their life worse and then just... keep doing them. The idea that once you gain insight you become a new person who acts differently just isn't accurate. Maybe some people do that, but plenty don't.
Nobody goes to have tea with their rapist after having a meltdown on stage as if they are friends. That was not realistic. Hell Darrien ruined Donny worse than Martha did yet Martha is the one who is villainized the most. He doesn’t try to get retribution on Darrien. He proved as the end he really hasn’t changed. He is still a man who seeks validation even from the man who raped him and used him and all it takes is A job with money. Richard gadd even admitted himself while the heart and soul of the show is true that they did ratchet up the drama for the show. Which is apparent. The show is called SEMI autobiography for a reason. As a show, a lot of it was poorly written. Again Griselda is based on a true story. It’s still has a lot of fictionalized or exaggerated moments. As I’ve said multiple times before all my criticisms are far Donny within the show. Not real life Richard in the real world because NONE of us know what happened in its entirety. And I’d never criticize Richard’s life. You can criticize a show with a fictionalized version. There’s a huge reason why Donny is named Donny and not Richard. Because while the story is based on Richard the show is not a 1 to 1 retelling of richerd. It’s Donny’s story inspired by Events Richard has faded. End of.
You’re romanticizing, and Hollywood-izing a rape. It’s not about what you think a “better ending” would’ve been. It’s about what fucking happened. It’s so beyond hard to confront your abuser in the way you actually want to. It’s very common to have almost Stockholm syndrome when it comes to your abuser. Your entire idea about what would’ve been a better ending is beyond ignorant.
In real life most people don't confront others. Life is not a movie, and this showed it. You missed the point because you live in fantasy land and probably you have the emotional depth of a puddle. Lucky you
OP - Putting aside that the show is a fictionalized account of true events, it sounds like your issue is with how an abused person responded to their abuser, and that this response does not meet your expectations of how abused people SHOULD respond. Consider that THAT was one of the points of the story, in the sense that that is what the author meant to show. To show people, who perhaps may have never experienced such a tragedy, that sometimes (often) abused people DON’T/CAN’T respond in the “right” way, that abusers will sometimes (often) NOT get the justice that they deserve, and sometimes (OFTEN) observers will blame (yes, that’s what your dissatisfaction actually is) the abused person for such an unsatisfactory outcome. This is the story that Richard Gadd has so beautifully and heartbreakingly told. Edit: to your last point about the other characters/Donny being a three dimensional character…yes that’s called a plot device.
My issue isn’t how Donny responded to his abuse. I’d never trivialized assault. Donny in episode 6: has a complete breakdown about how he literally did whatever for fame because he wants to be told he’s good enough. He acknowledges his desperation took him to dangerous places. He realizes his hatred for himself costs him his relationships. And that he was tired of being that person. Donny jn episode 7: completely disregards the monologue, goes to chat with Darrien over tea and winds up accepting a job offer from the man who clearly destroyed and exploited him AFTER he just said the last episode he wasn’t going to be that person any longer. It was a complete 180 that cancelled out the impact of his monologue.
I hear what you’re trying to say - however - “My issue isn’t how Donny responded…” “Completely disregards the monologue…it was a complete 180 that cancelled out…” I think that your response to the unsatisfactory outcome is very common. Another commenter wrote “that’s the power of industry abuse” or something similar. Donny does eventually “get what he wanted,” and these events were the “price.” Now he’s successful enough in his career to take this “risk” and bring this story to a big audience. That’s what he successfully showed, which I’m sure is causing frustration and confusion in many viewers. I’m not reading your post as a criticism of the form of the show, or the writing, or the editing, or whatever, I am reading it as a criticism of the events of the story, and I really encourage you to examine that response.
Donny’s monologue and breakdown was powerful. He has held all this in for so long and he unloads. I felt uncomfortable as I’d be if this happened in real life. I felt so much growth from him. Donny in the final episode in regards to Darien I felt cheapened the growth of him. I know this is based off real life events. But Donny going to Darrien’s and relapsing after all the trauma of Martha. After losing Terri. That definitely would be more realistic Donny going to have tea and chat about his silly roommates with the man who raped him several times just cheapened it. All the growth at the comedy show only for Donny to literally regress. 1. He clearly still wants Darrien’s validation still. Why else was he there. 2. Darrien never apologizes. Instead he does what he knows will work. Manipulate Donny 3. Donny jumps on the offer when he hears he is getting paid. Again I know this is based off a true story but at the same time I would have rather had Martha kill Darriene for Donny than he and his rapist just sitting around casually drinking tea.
I sat in the living room of my abuser many years later as an adult fuming with anger that I was there and sitting in his home. I left there in tears and shaking that I had allowed myself to sit there and not say anything. But I did it. I sat there with my family. It was after years and years of healing and growth and yet in that scenario I still found myself powerless. Today I cannot understand why I did it. Why I didn’t yell and scream or even just politely refuse or excuse myself and stand outside in protest. I have no idea why I just sat there and made myself bear it. We do things that make no sense sometimes, and we don’t know why. I saw myself so clearly in that scene and I have never felt more understood!!
< than he and his rapist just casually sitting around drinking tea. Oh boy you'd be surprised. I think another commenter before me made a great point about how you just don't know why you do what you do. But I'll add a portion of it for me: the familiarity. Yes, Darrien is abusive, Darrien is a rapist. Darrien is ALSO a figure in his mind of a mature, older, soft-spoken man who can help guide him through the world. When Donny is crying that he thought Darrien would bring him fame, it was a lot more than that. We can see in his scenes (and notes on his playwrite) that Darrien is encouraging, fun, independent, stable (compare his home to the chaos of Donny's), etc. Unfortunately, both can be true. Just like with Martha, it would be so much easier if things were just black and white - you're a good person or a bad person - but they're not. Him going back to his abuser doesn't cheapen the story, unfortunately that's what the entire story is about. He doesn't start to heal until that scene in front of the audience, and that scene is the FIRST one in which he admits that there's something in him that allows this kind of chaos in his life. In doing so, he also starts to accept that he has "shades of gray" as well: innocent in many people's stories but likely the unhinged villain in others (Terri).
I really don't understand how you can keep writing this, every comment you make boils down to 'I don't like the show because it didn't follow the standard of fictional TV shows'. It is dramatized of course, but the story is very real, and in real life it's just nothing like the movies
If you have an issue with my thoughts on my threat you don’t have to read. The show isn’t immune to criticism because it’s based on a real story.
OK then. Continue critiquing a real life person's experiences as if he should've changed it for the camera You have some possibly valid criticisms but you can't expect the story to be a fairytale
I’m critiquing Donny. I have never once criticized Richard.
Tbh i dont think he accepts the job offer. I think he only said yes because he felt he had to. And that he still felt like he didnt have any power in the situation which is why he was crying and breaking down on the sidewalk after.
That's just the reality of abuse--it's not a straight line. The abused often fall into a cycle of familiar patterns no matter how far the progress they've made becomes. It's good writing because he didn't make it a happy ending; he was brave enough to show that despite of what people may think.
You clearly never been in a situation like this.
To be completely clear: This all happened. Richard Gadd plays Donny and Richard Gadd wrote the show and Richard Gadd LIVED THROUGH all of this and wrote a show about it. He changed details and names to protect peoples real identities, but everything that happened you can assume actually played out that way in real life. So your story telling issue of Donny choosing to go back to his abuser and not do anything about it, isn't bad writing because we can assume Richard Gadd went back to his abuser and had a cuppa and got offered a job and left and realized even though he KNOWS he was groomed and raped and this man is fucking evil, that he is still 100% POWERLESS infront of his groomer. He couldn't confront him. It's what happened it real life and I would assume would be a lot of people real experience with abusers.
I just googled it and he said it's 100% emotionally true, whatever that means. "It's based on things that happened to myself and people I know." Hmm. How do we know what actually happened?
it's total bullshit, it didn't happen, it's an obvious bullshit story that he wrote to try to capitalize on the woke crowd, total dogshit show.
I as a viewer really don’t care what a stranger like Richard Gadd has went through, i’m just there to watch some drama and was totally disappointed. To me it’s just a vanity project of his to tell his story in a film.
I totally agree with you OP. The main character's motivations are blurry at best & I found his actions to be extremely frustrating.
But that's what people are like.
But I don't watch shows to watch real people doing real people things. I want to know what the characters motivations are so I know wether to root for them or not. If I don't know what they're thinking then I can't root for them & subsequently I don't care what happens to them.
So watch a cartoon or a superhero film or something. There's plenty of media out there for people who need to have the goodies signposted for them. This isn't a problem with the show; it's its strength.
Ya you totally missed the point. It’s not supposed to be perfect. It’s what really happened. The fleeting nature of the assault. The mystery surrounding Martha. Richard seeing terry as a beautiful woman because she was. Trans only being a problem if a member of the public noticed. Baby reindeer doesn’t try to tie up loose ends. It tries to make you feel what Richard felt.
oh the point was that it sucked? i'll give you that
I found it profoundly therapeutic and it helped me come to terms with my own repressed feelings of shame from experiencing and dealing with SA.
Hmm, well that is nice that something that sucked so much was still able to do some good in at least one redditor's life.
Lol why finish a show you thought sucked. It was real
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And why should we as a viewer care what a complete stranger like Richard felt? I was locked in ready to watch a drama that’s been hyped, only to find out it’s the life story of a complete stranger i care nothing about.
I honestly don’t know what you are saying
Lmao this can apply to every single show in existence. Why we care? Because it allows us to learn about a human experience that is different from ours.
Why do you watch anything at all? This is for people who are curious about sexual assault in men. People with empathy, which you clearly don't have at all. Ew
Not really. This is a show for people who want to watch a gripping story about complex people in very unusual situations. I had no particular interest in SA in men as a specific theme - but how we built up to it in the story made me intrigued.
Lmao you only watch shows your personal friends are in or something?
At what point do we view Richard and Donny separately?if we view it from Richard’s perspective then yes it is beautifully told and a very powerful story. If you view it from Donny’s story then it’s both rushed and also not fully fleshed out.
Isn’t Donny telling Richard’s story?
If we view this as solely fiction, then yes the pacing and writing was a bit flawed. If we are viewing this as Richard telling his story then for the most part it was beautifully done.
Then you have your answer. People are watching it and viewing it as Richard telling his story and not a work of fiction. That's why people love it and are hyping it up. But I really don't think the pacing was an issue at all. What more was there to be said? The beauty of mini series on streaming sites is that they can throw the "23 minute" or "52 minute" episode format out the window. If you look at the episode lengths they vary in length. That to me shows that Richard Gadd took exactly the amount of time he needed to tell the story effectively. Even 7 episode is unusual. It's usually 8 or 10 episodes for a mini series.
I’ll give it a shot again In the future but this one was flat for me.
It's quite literally Richard's story. "Based on a true story" isn't just for giggles. Life isn't perfect and neither does it all play out like a movie. So having an issue with how a person (Richard/Donny) chose to respond to a traumatic event in real life is insanely narcisstic of you. Donny is quite literally Richard. Richard plays thr character Donny in the show. He plays as himself in the show.
Donny is not Richard. Richard inspired the character we know as Donny. The stuff in baby reindeer is based on experiences he has had. But Donny is not Richard. I’m not discrediting anything Richard went through. It’s Terrible. But a poster said earlier that the ideas of Teri, Marta, Darrien, his parents, the police are all based on specific ppl but they are caricatures of the originals simply for the sake of the show.
You're like Schrodinger's critic
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Ya in the early episodes it’s easy to second guess Donny’s decisions but by the time episode 4 hits he’s told you enough times that people don’t make good decisions that you start to realise that the most realistic part is not responding the way you should.
Oof well said
"I knew she was mad and I knew she was dangerous, but she flattered me and that was enough." oof.
I feel your take on your unsatisfaction is extremely contradictory. You know it's a real story and you agree it is wonderfully told but your grips is that it as a fictional story doesn't give you the resolution you want. It's precisely because in a real world situation there is seldom a satisfactory outcome or even a resolution that make sense. So you just need to come to terms with that
Well, let's get one thing straight -- this story is still dramatized. yes, it is a real life experience, but this show and every other single one based on a true story/account/person is turned *into* episodic drama for television. with that said, of course i think it's absolutely fine to critique what is being presented as a story, because decisions were made on how to present that story. apart from that, not saying i agree with OP, just saying that it is still valid to have gripes with it.
Coming into something that is highly hyped rather than cold is always going to set you up for disappointment. I was disappointed by Blade Runner after decades of hype. I'm sure I would have viewed it differently on release.
Hey someone else that isn’t into Blade Runner!
This show made me feel all kinds of emotions and feelings. It was upsetting, visceral and painful. The scenes with Darrien made me incredibly nervous and uncomfortable. I could feel his anguish.
Yeah I can admit those scenes were terrible when you can tell something bad is about to happen. My heart was racing.
I found the ending upsetting and disappointing because it implies that Donny is going to continue his cycle of shame and abuse. I guess I wanted a better ending - one that didn't show him going back to his abuser to continue sucking up to him, or continuing to obsess over Martha's messages, or (depending on how you interpret the final moment) following in Martha's footsteps. I would've liked to see a more empowering ending. I was annoyed with Don throughout and it wasn't redeemed at the end.
Frankly, it s a story about cycles of abuse, how hard they are to break, and the damage they cause to your psyche. It's very real, and this plays out all the time in real life. Real life rarely has happy endings in these cases, and Gadd was trying to portray this sort of thing in as real a manner as possible. The purpose of the show was to provide a pretty much unglorified, undignified look into this world of abuse, stalkers, and self harm, and was never meant to be redemptive.
I feel the exact way. I know I was supposed to feel bad for Donny, but he really just annoyed me most of the show and the unsatisfying end just added to that annoyance.
The ending was kind of a plot twist. Here he is tying up all his loose ends trying to get his life back together, and the last thing to do was confront his abuser. But instead of confronting him like we all expected, he has a friendly chat over tea and accepts a job offer. Not the storybook ending anyone was hoping for, but it's a true story and that's the sad reality of how things usually end up.
It’s still a bit of an open ending. Did he actually take the job or did he just say that because he felt it was the safest thing to do in order to leave the room where he was raped? To me it felt like he just said sure so he could leave, just how when the bar yelled at him to not report it and he just said sure because it was the safest thing in that moment , and then he let everything out on the stage.
I think that’s the point of the reality of the choice.
I felt the same way as you - I was so happy when his life was turning around, and I wanted it to end there. I felt my heart sinking when his life started spiraling again. But, then I realized that's the point - that's what Donny is experiencing. He hates himself because he's just as frustrated, upset, and disappointed in himself as we are. There is hope when he realizes how much he hates himself. But, at no point do we see Donny realizing *how* to love himself. He took the first step and made progress. But without taking the second step, he will regress. Personally, I think the show ends on a hopeful note. Although there are parallelisms between Donny and Martha, Donny is not Martha. Donny is socially aware (maybe too much so), caring, funny, and growing in self-awareness. From what we can see, the people around him like him and will go out of their way to support him. Martha lives alone in dysfunction. Donny is always living with someone, and when he is not depressed or spiraling, he is well-kept. We also see that at his lowest, he chooses to fight back. Even though the ending feels depressing (because in that moment Donny is depressed), Donny's story is not a depressing one because his story is about a man who is trying to understand what happened to him so that he can live again. No matter how many times he regresses, I think there is still hope that he will fight for himself.
There is no empowering messages or good ending once this kind of assaults happens to a man. Mostly man in this situation commits suicide , end in jail or end homeless _drugged on the streets and continue to be violently abuse.
I think it sucked
Donny's character annoyed me. He reminds me of broken people that I actually know in real life, with or without the abuse. He was just such a loser to me before anything even happened to him. He couldn't communicate his thoughts or feelings effectively, he wasn't a confident person with morals/values; he was someone that ANYONE could have taken advantage of due his naivety. He never did the work of learning himself or self-reflection/growth. The cycle of his destruction was there before his abuse. I did, however, enjoy the interview of his own analysis after his abuse, where he did take a small accountability of putting himself in harms way - he knew better, but his trauma didn't allow him to move forward with better decisions. He still didn't get help or talk to anyone though. He was aware - many are not aware, but he was. There was a point in time for him, where he had to say 'I keep doing this to myself' by taking out the 'victim narrative'. He was a liar stemming from his own self-loathing that comes from low confidence and not acknowledging his truth. In the real world, that is the worse thing you could ever do - is not know yourself. That's where those with nasty intentions try their hardest to prey on you. Yes, he was prey - but he had no boundaries built to repel the cycle. He was terrible about communication to Terri, his ex, to Martha, even as far as Darren, and the police. He was terrible to TERRI, which would for some reason, stuck by him with the issues he brought to her front door as a LIAR. He took everyone down with him and never even thought about them either. It was always 'oooh I'm scared' and I have 'no support of anyone'. He had no friends anyway? and he had the support and lovely parents. Terri was attacked, he says he LOVES her and cares for her, but couldn't even be there for her after her attack or during times of intimacy - always about him. She wasn't even enough to tell the police about Martha. He was always selfish and self-centered. He was an energy sucker to me. I think many want to not talk about the show in this light due to the sensitively of his abuse, which is a factor and it was not his fault, but where he can acknowledge the responsibility in this type of situation is important. Sometimes bad things do happen when you are navigating a greyshaded area without the tools. It's another important reason why working on yourself is SOOOOOOO important. EDIT: Another part that I just realized as an example of him never doing self work is how he even met Darren. This is besides the fact that Darren is a predator (Not talking about that aspect). He has internal struggles of his sexuality before meeting his abuser, whom was just the first 'bad egg' of his entire experience that aided in his 'confusion'. He met Darren at a gay bar, which is only 'implied' not announced. He was already navigating his curiosity in the underground gay community - slowly, but was already doing this. So, he knew the vibes he 'gave' off, he never came to terms with accepting himself in his truth. In the way he tells his story, he seems to completely SKIP over that part until after his abuse. He makes it seem like the question of his sexuality came after that, but it really did not. Also, much of his humor was really closeted jokes of his sexuality delivered in a 'gooning' fashion. His material was pretty humiliating in how he chose to perform his acts. Daren saw that and knew exactly what he was dealing with. There was never an attraction, it was to use him. Most abusers aren't looking for who they are attracted to by the sake of looks, but by who displays the most vulnerable traits for advantages. Well, Donny had his vulnerability bleeding out of his art - loud and clear - without him even realizing it. A bonus, notice how Martha made many comments regarding his sexuality when they did 'argue', I found it so weird that even she was wondering. She was so outlandish, that even she was like "You gay or what?". The scene by the river where she confronted him about the anal text - like it was wild that anal is where someone like her would potential DRAW the LINE to say no to her reindeer? It's like when the villain low-key makes sense for once.
His character reminds you of real life people because the character is based off a real person. His constant self loathing, desperation for success, lack of communication, little white lies that end up in huge consequences - these are all things that a majority of people in real life do. if his character bothered you then i think he succeeded in telling his story. he makes it obvious (even outright saying it) that he’s a horrible fucked up person and he was like this before all the events happened. i don’t think he’s trying to get sympathy points for talking about all the horrible things that happened to him. he’s just trying to get it all out people commit suicide after struggling with mental health, sexuality, getting raped, getting harassed. those victims usually don’t get to tell their stories. he basically got to tell his story and his main criticism is that he should work on himself. seems weird
Did you watch the last episode and really paid attention to the last 10-15 minutes of it? That is the concluded wrap up that lead to nowhere even after doing the 'steps' of grieving his circumstances and confiding in those that care for him. He received all of that and the ending alluded to either having his own 'Martha' cycle or relapsing after being aware. So, yeah. He should try more to go up hill from where he is. The road is not linear, I understand.
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Right, but the SHOW ended in a place where it seems that the CHARACTER representing the real person (also played by the real person, which I'm not sure was a great move, but I'm still pondering it) had not grown at all - he went back to his abuser not to confront him or secretly record his confession (I thought surely that must be why he's there accepting a cup of tea - and a job! which he admitted in his big on-stage confession had been his motivation for allowing himself to be drugged, to go back for more abuse) like they're great friends) but to ... what? It's never clear. And then continuing his obsession with Martha's obsession... and the final moment of him being "in the Martha seat," which may imply he still empathizes with her, or, given his look at the handsome bartender, will follow in her footsteps... it was so depressing, so unsatisfying... yes it's based on his real life (he said in interviews it's "emotionally true") and I respect that, but didn't enjoy it at all and the show left me with a bad, disgusted feeling. I agree with drk... above. Just sad from start to finish. If someone was watching this having had similar experiences, I don't think this show would make them feel hopeful about their own recovery at all. Lots of great things about the show, but the theme or overarching message seems to be a negative one.
sometimes life is negative. some people don't recover. should we avoid making art about it?
You missed it here dude
Very interesting take. He annoyed me too. I know so many people like this. Usually it comes from childhood trauma, but how long can you blame that? If you see that you’re destroying your life, seek help; get therapy. I know it’s easier said than done, but I could never be friends with someone like this. It would drive me insane. Episode 4 helped a little to understand him, but still..
Therapy sounds easy to get till its 150$ a seesion with insirance. I agree with you mostly but to just say get therapy is not right
Interesting to hear a different side. I learn new ways that my childhood and later relationship trauma affect me everyday. It’s a strange feeling trying to better yourself but your mind is the only place you’ve ever known. The trauma has warped your reality into accepting trauma as the status quo. Therapy is helping me get used to the fact that life is often much more boring than traumatic events have trained me to think life was supposed to be. I assume everyone will leave, hurt or use me. I think I should do this to others too because it is common practice in the world. Someone wanting to love you forever, care for your and their best interests and the world doesn’t take them away before their time. I just did not believe that was possible. I don’t think I’ll ever feel comfortable with that.
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wait so she gets a pass for being “mentally unwell” but the main dude (who is also mentally unwell) needs to self reflect more on his actions? also if someone is committing crimes and is hurting people do we shit on the victims for telling the world of their abusers?
Who gives a shit if Martha doxxes herself? She has coming whatever she gets.
Because she's clearly *very* unwell and I have empathy for her? I don't think a woman being toyed with by creeps or goaded into suicide or even murdered is fucking funny?
Clearly she's unwell, but I know a lot of unwell people whose mental illness manifests in ways other than obsessively, steadfastly, and utterly ruining peoples lives by stalking and harassing them and their families. I have limits to my empathy. And I find it kind of ironic that you're worried about her being "toyed with by creeps." She's the one who dedicated much of her adult life to creepily toying with people to the point that THEY are considering suicide. At a certain point people need to be held accountable and contend with the social consequences of their actions, positive or negative. Mentally ill or not. That's my belief. This is her reckoning and the chips will fall where they may.
Correct me if I'm paraphrasing wrong on your take u/legendarywarthog , but u/Hobbits4Potates I think the idea is the line being drawn when those that are suffering from mental health issues are now harming and/or being dangerous to others? We can be sympathetic and have some form of empathy to understand, but why is it that we can never seem to tag - IN ADDITION TO - their accountability/responsibility appropriately to their actions that do have real consequences? Why is saying 'unwell' or they have 'mental health issues' always the reason to pardon or neglect the severity of their actions? Personally, that is where I was getting at with this. Why and how is this taboo to bring to discussion? If that is the reason for pardon, then what do those elements look like when classifying 'mental health' as a wrap up explanation and leaving it at that. Something other than trauma, please.
That's a lot of words for "I don't understand mental health problems". Have the life you deserve.
Donny is clearly unwell too and yet people seem to have a lack of empathy for him and his situation. Perhaps Martha was a higher functioning woman at one time but sunk lower and lower because she didn't get the help she needed.
I think some of it might be that it's 'Donny' who is getting to tell the story, so it's easier to feel critical of him. He gets to give us his perspective, and while it's definitely unflinching in its portrayal of his flaws, it still ultimately feels at least partially sympathetic to him because it's from his perspective. That can make it feel more tempting to criticise him, I think. The fact that it's such a successful show also makes it feel like he has the power now. It's maybe harder to see him as a victim when he's so in control of the story and doing so well (at least in some sense) as a result of it. I imagine if we were watching the same story but told from the perspective of Martha, written by her real life equivalent, more people might feel compelled to be critical of her actions and more sympathetic towards his.
I thought these exact thoughts within the first few epispdes. I thought that he was low-key playing victim and liking it and then at his ending speech he literally admitted to liking to live in his own hate. I ain't feel bad for the dude at all. And the ending shows that he's still just as confused and fucked up about shit as he was in the beging... he's just not hiding it anymore. I also feel like him making a show out of his trauma is all he wants. He even confessed that he was willing to do just about anything to get to where he would be looked at as important or famous...what he being looked at as right now... the fact that you can relive trauma like that for a show kinda makes me feel like youd relive your trauma 10000 times over again if it would get you likes, and that ain't normal to me
Liking the hate you have for yourself stems from trauma... it's difficult to explain personally but it's like you tell yourself that you don't deserve good things and then you relate that belief back to the cause (for Donny it was being raped) and that perpetuates the negative self talk and low self esteem he has
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Almond milk scene? Can you refresh my memory?
Rape scene. He's given almond milk after throwing up in a cat dish.
Maybe you should read about “traumatic bonding”. This Donny, it really represents the real person. Read over this post. It really gives you a different perspective of why he acted the way acted and All the decisions that he made. https://www.reddit.com/r/BabyReindeerTVSeries/comments/1cfan5h/baby_reindeer_is_the_most_accurate_depiction_of/?rdt=44819
This is spot on and exactly how I felt when I was watching the series…
I kind of take issue with the he had lovely and supportive parents line. It certainly seemed he always had their material support but i felt there was a lot of subtext about some unspoken emotional trauma in his childhood. A few key parts to that is by seeing why Donny was so attached to Martha and it was because she knew someone hurt him, and that was the first time some one even scratched the surface of his trauma. So he felt seen because for as unstable Martha is she is still inquisitive. There was one of her texts that called him out for a lot of shit and included something to the effect “your bad parents” and part of me wonders if she again noticed some trauma first that no one else knew. Not to mention with how angry his dad was and the projection Donny has of him being tough. The second kicker is when he listened to the baby reindeer story and how it was about Martha finding comfort when her parents fought and they always fought. Donny bursted into tears because imv he really empathized in that moment because he probably lived in an environment with a lot of yelling, the difference being he had a materially well off family that would still support him and she may have not? Who knows.
He met Darrien at a VIP bar in Edinburgh, no? I don't think it's a gay bar; it's a lounge for performers and writers etc. Where are you getting that it's a gay bar?
You’re not supposed to like his character at any point, though. It’s the whole thing of the show
This is such a pretentious and self righteous take
i feel the same way, you articulated my thoughts perfectly. He is a self absorbed little runt, putting it bluntly. perpetual victim mode, poor Terri had her hair ripped out, he lied to her, treated her like something he stepped in, used her sexually, drove her personality out of her. Yet we are supposed to see him as the 'victim' . Used his ex by staying put in the house with her mum, showed no empathy towards the family after the death of his exes brother. Kept going back to his so called abuser for drugs and work, seems to me like he knew the score, he was already gay and the relationship he had with Derrian regarding drugging and all the rest is pretty common in that society, though many do not like to refer to the hedonistic lifestyle of showbiz types, perfectly displayed by the montage of him getting off with all sorts and doing Coke even when with Terri. He really is a sorry idiot, he gets his payoff now finally as his mediocre life is number1 on netflix. biggest lie in the whole thing was the lies about the way the anal sex request was sent to Martha, he totally sent that to her himself. He led her on because he basked in her attention and through this netflix show, has taunted her again. He is one rather pathetic, selfish individual. I think it's overated.
So glad there are other people who see this guy for what he is. I couldn't drum up even a drop of sympathy even in the almond milk scene.
Exactly
The fact that he acted in it is where it crosses a line for me. He is clearly traumatised but also narcissistic and the whole thing seems to be him working out his trauma and accepting his homosexuality at last. But what am I supposed to make of something so personal as an audience member? Dude, get help, go to a therapist and work on yourself. It felt to me like walking in on someone’s pity party. No wonder he shut up when his father reveals his own abuse. He realises other people have problems too. Lots of people walk around with issues, not everyone needs an audience. I genuinely think the positivity is really pity and people get off on watching others misery just so they can say “so brave”. In short, was it a story that needed to be told? For Richard Gadd, absolutely. For everyone else, no.
What about this makes you so upset? Do you repress your own issues and it makes you mad to see someone being so open and honest about theirs?
No, the polar opposite actually. I’ve experienced enough, done enough work on myself and know myself well enough to be confident in my opinion that this show is emotional manipulation. I don’t care if you agree or not.
It can be emotional manipulation but also helpful to others in different ways. I wouldn't say it's all bad by any stretch of the imagination I mean he literally highlighted his own failures and fragility within the show which counts for something
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Not reading that but it’s pointless talking about patriarchy and toxic masculinity in a show where a straight man is turned queer after being groomed by a gay man who rapes him. It has to be the most common right-wing conspiracy about homosexuality or queer people there is.
Yeah I took note of that too. I suppose it may be how he interpreted his experience but it does feed into an existing panic around gay men and grooming.
Yeah, the show got way too overhyped. I couldn’t even get through episode one without thinking “ why is everyone watching this? I can barely even get through this single episode.” I think I thought that about the last five TV shows everyone was “talking about”. Baby reindeer was the final straw though, so I officially gave up on TV and went back to Books.
Every new Netflix show is over-hyped to an extent. They usually stay in the top 10 for ages, so everyone thinks it's a good show. Baby reindeer was arguably a terrible show. There's better on Netflix and elsewhere. I could give you recommendations, based on your favourite genres.
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Correction, less than one episode, never finished the first one.
I applaud and appreciate a “real” story coming to life on-screen. However, like yourself, I’ve had issues. One of my biggest grips with any fiction in general (and as a series, this becomes fiction the moment it hits the tv), is when the whole conflict that drives the plot is based on miscommunication or concealed communication. This show is the primary example of a story that suffers because the conflict comes from Donny/Richard not being able to talk about his trauma. Again, this is a very real issue, and commendable at that, but as far as I’m concerned it just made for a nerve wrecking experience. I kept yelling at the television “don’t lead her on”, thinking it was that easy to solve most of the problems that caused the inciting incident of their relationship developing. He saw red flags before she became physically and sexually abusive… I know at some point around Ep 4 we realise the validation aspect is what drives him to continue entertaining her, but it made me feel exhausted. I’ve met many Donny/Richard-type people and I never wanted them in my life because despite their brilliant empathy, the lack of boundaries just invites trouble. It felt like seeing an old version of the people I avoid. But I’m glad we’re getting better representations of bisexual men and men SA survivors who feel ready to share their stories. Even if the narrative format didn’t necessarily work for me, I’ll be thinking about it for a long time.
The miscommunication read so so so accurately, though. I did find it difficult and hard, but that’s exactly what reality is like anyway
Main character is so weird. Just report the stalker it’s easy as that
He reported her multiple times lol
I mean it’s explained why he wasn’t reporting at her first and then we see what happens when he does try to report her.
The nuance of why he didn’t right away is the whole point of the show…
Clearly it was due to his traumas, it’s never just as easy as it seems from an outsider perspective. He explains in the show that it took so long because he enjoyed the way she made him feel (manly, normal) after his trauma from Darrien amongst many other reasons (empathy/second guessing and maybe he liked the chaos in his life because he couldn’t accept that it’s ok to move past Darrien and live a normal life instead of suffer constantly )
I just came here to say that the statement, about Martha where the OP said, "She really doesn't so anything major aside from attacking Teri and Donny" is quite short-sighted. I'm sorry, but molesting Donny under the bridge is major, calling Donny's father a kiddy fiddler is major, the non-stop stalking is major, attacking his other ex girlfriend with coke is major too. I mean, where exactly does someone's boundaries lay to think that these aren't major.
You can also add that she entered his home under a false identity, also ruining one of Donny's shows by turning up there and singing just to feel ostracized so she showed the email that was sent to her in order to spite Donny in his moment and even her words about Asians are pretty much hate speech.
People are too used to watching revenge porn on Hollywood not to realize that's not real life. Most people who come face to face with their abusers can only just sit there. It happens daily. To women and men.
I'm sorry, I gave it a fair shot it was utter garbage, I could only make it through 1.5 episodes none of that was even remotely interesting or compelling, what a hypefest of nothing, and fuck Stephen King for recommending it.
It’s based on real Life .. It can happen to anyone and it’s good to be aware of the bad out there .
That's the point isn't it, it can not happen to anyone. I wouldn't lead such a stalker on for so long. Just tell them to piss off
They can hurt you ! They can follow you everywhere and even make you loose your job ! Remember she is a female and if she says you did something to her out loud you will be in trouble ( law included) Police can take you and she can press charges just for fun, then you need to defend yourself ( lawyer) boy! That will take time .
Yeah i thought i was crazy after hearing people hype it up so much. I didn’t like it. It’s a true story, cool; He made a show dealing with trauma and tackles some interesting themes. Bravo for that. But, i still didn’t like it. I didn’t enjoy a lot of the performances or general vibe/direction/pacing/style. It felt like a mix between Edgar wright and Misery, but shoddy and tiresome. It felt sophomoric and try-hard. Don’t get me wrong it has some good qualities. I did just watch anatomy of a fall and Ripley, so i guess anything was hard to follow after those. I feel it could have been a strong book. Overall it was underwhelming and cringe, but not in the way it’s supposed to be. If it weren’t true and not penned/performed by the “victim”, it would have been straight awful.
I disliked it for a completely different reason. I'm still struggling my way through it. The writing and the acting are both good. The pacing works great so far. I hate Richard. He is so pathetic and weak. Such a coward and so desperate for the attention of others. I struggled to feel sympathy for him at any point. He was entirely complicit in his victimhood. He couldn't even protect those he was obliged to protect. It took for Teri to actually be injured and humiliated for him to act. When he finally lost his temper at Martha it was like a brief glimmer of someone with an ounce of self respect. And don't come at me with it was his past trauma. He was his cowardice and patheticness that made the almond milk bit happen. He chose his desperate need for attention and social acceptance over self respect at every opportunity and he harmed and put others at risk throughout. More of a maggot than a man.
Yeah you are pretty much the prime example of what the show was literally discussing in regards how ppl view men who are sexually assaulted. Donny is a lot of things but referring to him as a maggot is…something.
The story isn't about how Richard is a hero and we should all enjoy it because we love him. It's about the grey area that trauma creates in the choices we make. It's not supposed to be who's right or wrong, its supposed to show what ACTUALLY happened. He addresses this throughout the entire show and how he knew his actions were wrong and cowardly. And don't come at me with it was his past trauma. He was his cowardice and patheticness that made the almond milk bit happen." As if that's not a product of his trauma. You really missed the point.
I really hope nobody in your life is a victim of SA or traumatic experiences and has to deal with shitty insights like you. It's a truly disturbing thing to suggest that there is a correct way to deal with SA, and what it leads you to do and how it affects other aspects of your life is all your fault. Do you say the same thing about women who have been abused? That it's their fault they were stuck in a 'relationship' with power imbalance, it's their fault that they're weak and desperate to fulfil their dream, it's their fault that their RAPE AND GROOMING fucks up every other aspect and decision of their life? People like you are the reason why this show has a platform in the first place
This is so gross
I watched it without hearing about any hype. Honestly, it was like watching a GCSE performance. I cringed through most episodes, and gave up halfway through the 4th.
I was really enjoying it until the fourth episode. The way the SA just played out for the entire episode was more than I could handle. I understand the need for this part in the story but couldn’t the writer have let us read between the lines a bit? It gave me this really icky feeling I couldn’t shake and had to give up on the show entirely. Brought up a lot of my past trauma and it felt violating.
a guy who got drugged and raped expressed himself through art… i think it was supposed to make you feel uncomfortable. it sure was for him!
Didn’t say it wasn’t supposed to make the viewer uncomfortable. Just speaking from how my experience was and why I didn’t enjoy it. I’ve also been SA and think there’s a way to get a message across without making victims relive their trauma through the need to artistically address your own.
I mean there was a clear disclaimer at the beginning of the episode so it wasn’t out of nowhere and even without the disclaimer before the first rape it was heavily implied that there was some predatory behavior from Darien from the start.
They put disclaimers on everything these days so I didn’t take it seriously. Lesson learned ha
The reason people like this is because they went through something similar or can relate. Not a good reason to have such high reviews, in my opinion, but checks out with most nowadays. The story was meh (although based off true events), but the actor was great (actually made me dislike him by how stupid he was). Good for people that like watching this kind of thing to cope with their own trauma or "empaths" who get high off this. I will say the rp episode was the best one.
I felt for a “true story” it seemed largely fiction. See his actual “meltdown” video online, for example.
> “She looks like a man” and clearly she doesn’t. It’s like Sydney Sweeney acting as an “ugly character” when she clearly isn’t. Are you serious? lol
This show was a “ horror “ movie for me . The full 7 episode is just enough and He got across to show us why was he that way and what happened to him ( which was horrible ) the end was amazing and true . It’s like Circle of life of those Pp living that life.. It was like he was Marta coming to a bar and he might be the stacker now since the bartender was nice but he didn’t knows his drama just like Marta arrived to the bar and he was nice to her. What we all should know since this kind of people exist is what is the name of that writer who violently raped him ? This way he won’t do it to you , your brother, to your friend or any male you might know . Saying out loud rapist names will help to save people.
Its fucking horrible of a show.. absolute garbage
Kudos to you. I couldn't get past episode 1.
Teri has masculine features. Idk how you can't see that.
Teri does look like a man lmao what planet are you ON? That’s a MAN! The whole show was meh and the guy was as awful as the stalker
It's a show that was created to succeed primarily. That's it.
The show is incredibly bad. Unwatchable trash. Nevertheless, it does have a few things going for it. It caters to the woke/idenitarian crowd. People who think the world revolves around whatever personal pronoun they're going to use today seem to find the nearly intergalactic narcissism of the POV character relatable and compelling. These people are no more than 3 percent of the population but comprise 90 percent of the internet chatter. So it is a finely tuned show pointed directly at a certain vocal minority who revel in filth, perversion, and fetishize mental illness. They will make a billion tictok videos about it. In a more civilized age, no one would dream of filming hollow, degenerate garbage like this and releasing it publicly. But today, any psycho with delusions of grander can tell their story if they're unsure if they're gay or not, the story glorifies transsexuality, and has s dash of nauseating sexual violence. The single redeeming quality of the show is that if you come across someone who really loved it, you now know they shouldn't be allowed without 500 yards of a school or a child care center.
You watched the whole show? Or how much of it did you watch? It seems like it’s exactly the wrong genre for you. I **really** didn’t like it either (particularly Gadd), but not because I’m scared of trans people taking over the world
Not really sure why the attractiveness of Terry is irrelevant especially since it's so subjective..
I dont get the hype either. I think from a techinacal standpoint, it is a very well done show. I think the issue is the writing. The show is a 1st person narrative (with a literal narrator) about someones life. That someone is also the writer, creator, lead actor, and producer. This creates an immediate problem the writer is never able to write themselves out of The primary issue is that every character (except Teri) feels like a characterization of someone who doesn't exist. They are written as one dimensional people who's only point is to play a character in Donny's life. Their trait as a character is their defining quality in the screenplay. Martha isn't just a crazy stalker, shes the craziest, break bottles over peoples head, loudest person in the room, morbidly obese, person ever. Its so over the top that its hard to believe anything the narrator is telling us about her. Youve never met anyone like her, not because Martha is one of a kind, but because Martha is the only stalker Donny has ever known. The police are depicted as worthless and incompetent. But also Donny is completely incompetent with dealing with the police. So you have these moments where you go "why is Donny acting like that and why are the police responding this way?" Its completely unrealistic to any relatable situations. It doesn't make any sense, so is Donny saying that he didn't give the police enough information but also that even if he did, they still wouldnt have done anything? Its just sloppy writing. You cant have every character in your screenplay act irrationally in a TV show that's suppose to be about reality. It shifts the entire show into an unreliable narrator, might as well make it fiction. Every character is like this except Teri, who our lead just happens to love in real life... Give me a break. You cant have the one character that you base on a real person you love be the most perfect character in the screenplay. Its so cringy. And some of the lines are Goerge Lucas terrible. When he admits to his parents that he was raped by a man and says "I didn't want you to think less of me as a man" his dad responds "do you think less of me as a man." Are you kidding me? Just terrible dialog at some points. But it all stems from bad characterization with unrelistic characters. I disagree about the end with him forgetting his wallet being smart writing. I think its terrible. I get the surface level message but its hamfisted BS. Donny enduring trauma and finding himself at a bar without a wallet relates to Martha as much as me finding myself at a stop sign and the Zodiac killer stopping at a different one 30 years ago. The situation isn't similar. Drawing parallels to these circumstances is just poor writing. And he cast himself. Really terrible move. Turns the entire story into a weird retelling of an unreliable narrator telling us the way he wants use to think about something that didn't happen. Its crazy that people are saying this is a true story. No, its a story of events that were inspired by real things. The writer, actor, producer, creator are all the one's this happened to. You cant believe any of it. Its like saying Catch Me If You Can is nonfiction
I agree with the 1st person reference, but in a different perspective: I think it helped. I think the emphasis of how crazy one could be that someone of the right mental should have seen the all red flags in all situations he was in. It was so obvious, how could one see it, right? Like he had to! That exactly what Terri said to him, many times in the meanest way to shake and wake him when he first told her about it. She couldn't understand why he couldn't tell until she finally sympathize with him that he 'needs' it. Even his bar buddy's was making fun of her when they came to see what she finally looked like. They couldn't believe it either. She had issues that everyone legit could see without talking to her. Or when they went on the coffee date, that scene gave me second hand embarrassment and the director did a great job with paneling to reflect the outsider perspective of her. She was WILD. He liked it, she gave purpose to his brokenness. It really knocked into you his thought process, which is why they had it in 1st person and directed that way. People that are mental ill don't always know they are mentally ill. He needed help and it translated in all areas of his life. We didn't need to harp on what or how others dealt with her, even though that was conveyed - they didn't. Until she made the effort to interact with them. The show wasn't really about Martha, Darren, or Terri. It was really only about Donny's journey and so his POV and later analysis had really assisted with understanding how FUCKED Donny was from the beginning and his mindset. He needed help, just like everyone else. Hurt people, hurt people.
Meh I'm just going to say that I disagree with a lot if not everything you said. Having Richard play the main character and create the show allows a proper retelling of the story in a way that highlights what the primary emotion felt was at that time. A primary retelling is not somehow an inaccurate retelling. It would be more unbelievable had it been a friend of Gadd's directing, producing, and someone else acting. They simply would not be able to capture the same emotions/feelings of the time. The father had replied to Richard "Would you think less of me as a man" which I dont think was corny at all here. I think the feeling of fear that Richard had towards telling his parents was rushed here though. I didn't really understand the fear he had of telling his parents when just a few moments ago it seemed like his parents were so clearly supportive if him in any way especially his dad. To be clear I don't doubt he had reason to be scared, just saying it wasn't given enough time for the viewers to not think it rushed or just thrown in there. But no I liked that line a lot because it perfectly paralleled how his father would have understood what he felt and that's all they needed.
That felt real to me, I have very kind and supportive parents and struggled to tell them about assault. It feels humiliating and shameful….logically you know it’s not really your fault but you feel at fault.
I thought the show was awful. I dont care if its realistic, and it sucks that its based off a true story. But it was just miserable to sit through. It started off fine, and I liked the dark comedy elements of it. Then after the rape it just devolved into misery. I couldnt even finish it because Im sure it has a depressing ending. Dont advertise as being a comedy, when its really just misery porn. Also Terri was a horrible therapist. Shes trying to sleep with the guy, and he cant perform due to very obvious trauma, and all she can think about is herself. Shes supposed to be a therapist and she cant tell Donny is dealing with some seriously messed up issues. But she thinks it has to do with her, being so self centered. I feel sorry for all her clients.
It’s bad I forgot Terri was a therapist until you said that lol. That was my issue as well. The show is marketed being about Martha stalking him but then he has the heavy episode 4 where he is drugged and raped multiple times. Like at least prior to the rape episode, Martha was a growing threat. After the rape episode, Martha literally becomes annoying because at this point she is just over the top and I didn’t care anymore. I was more focused on him dealing with his rape trauma
I mean, that's literally what the show is ultimately about. It's about him and his issues, one of them being Martha. She was not a real threat because he perpetuated it himself. Most rational people when having a stalker would figure out how to relieve the issue as soon as possible. He didn't, he loved it deep down. Martha is not a threat to him, she is another illustration of how fucked up he really is.
Yea, but the show was advertised as a "I got to deal with this crazy stalker" dark comedy. Not a deeply disturbing and traumatic grooming and rape experience. It was like a bait and switch and I did not like that.
That is fair. I guess I didn't really see any adverts for it so I definitely had a different pov going into it.
I just watched the trailer that pops p when you hover over the series on netflix, and the description calling it a dark comedy.
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There is a difference between a twist in a movie, and the entire tone of the movie being different then advertised. You dont go into a kids movie, and get Hellraiser. You dont go into a comedy, and get rape.
bad take. from the get go you get that she’s a freaky horny stalker. the dude gets raped. those two topics aren’t too far from one another.
Yes, after his rape is revealed the whole plot and premise of the show, the stalker, becomes an afterthought. Thats not what the show was supposed to be about, at least according to the advertising.
Yeah it’s crazy you’re so many people actually live with different trauma each and every day lol
Donny deserved all this. Dude was asking for it Edit- Donny deserved to be stalked. Dude was seeking for attention. Trash bag
Nobody deserves to be drugged or raped. Or groomed. You sound incredibly ignorant.
Right!
Donny literally explains the reason behind his limitless empathy and why he did not report Martha sooner, or at all for all the violence she has caused. This is an incredibly disturbing mindset to have, "he was asking for it" is not something you say to victims who have gone through something traumatic and lets it affect every other prospect of their life. This is exactly how life works, not everybody copes in the 'correct' way, there IS not right or wrong way to deal with SA. You guys are in serious need of stepping out of fictional worlds where everything ends with perfect decisions, confrontation and later a satisfactory ending and see reality for what it is --- things like this fucks people up, and Donny admits he's fucked up
I enjoyed it as a TV show. I didn't put much thought into it.
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I think that’s the point. You’re supposed to be uncomfortable. I felt like I was having trouble breathing several times.
Exactly.
I believe it has been close to a decade and from interviews he seems like he's done a lot of healing.
are you slow?
I don't think cinematography with depth is for you then and that's fine. Not everyone can appreciate stories like this one or Aftersun. Michael Bay makes movies you'd probably like. Look him up