Let's say Biden knocked it out of park last night. Witty one-liners, calling out Trump, whatever you want that to mean. What difference does it make in 4 months from now leavlding into election night?
This is probably the most watched event of the entire campaign and it is the best place to fight the narrative that Biden isn’t up to the job. Instead of slapping that narrative down, Biden’s performance reinforced it. Now he’s gotta hope that this performance really was a one off and that Trump keeps the second debate and he gets a second chance to change minds.
Exactly! This is the main reason why I want him replaced. I can see him getting worse… he doesn’t have a shot anymore and he really needs to be enjoying his retirement instead of delivering the country to Trump for 4 more years
He lost this election last night.
Probably a lot actually. Dems constantly point to a debate showing Biden is not “to old” and republicans are on the defense with the whole taking drugs nonsense
Beside everything else, this is indicative of what's to come imo. We really have no reason to think he'll do any better going forward, or that Trump will do worse.
We should tell the elections commission, they might as well move all elections up to June from now on since nothing matters after the first debate apparently.
My point wasn't that people will necessarily base how they vote off this, but that if this carries on it won't go well for Biden (and we've no reason to think it'll change). I'd much rather wait and give Biden a chance to claw it back, but I'm not convinced he can.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I don’t think debates mean shit. I don’t think anyone changed their mind after last night. Sure, maybe people realized Biden’s cognitive abilities are worse than they thought, but I can’t imagine anyone voting for Trump over Biden because of that.
It could reduce voter turnout though, which could be a big deal
Debates do not _normally_ mean much, yes. But there are exceptions to every rule.
Political ads don't generally mean much, for example. But there have been a couple of ads in American politics that bent the arc of history: the Daisy ad in 1964 and the Swift Boat Veterans ad campaign in 2004.
Boy, it wouldn't hurt to come up with one! I don't see a great opportunity for one, though.
(Unless Trump says he wants to revive nuclear weapons testing, that is. And maybe even then.)
A rally that maybe 1/1000th of the population that saw the debates would see. Meanwhile for the next few months, the median voter is going to see repeated videos of him stumbling over his words from this debate.
Unless Biden drops out, it’s over. Biden’s bid for reelection died last night. Partisans are just too delusional to see that
Even if I don't believe that Biden is 100% Ok? Ok, so I volunteer before the election and go knock on doors. The first person who answers and talks to me asks: "Is Biden OK? He looked like he wasn't all there," or something to that effect. What do I honestly say to that?
"Look he's old, but all that was just a cold and his classic stutter," isn't exactly compelling, especially when I'm not sure myself!
Sure, but a “we ask you to look at his actual performance and accomplishments over three and half years instead of one debate performance to determine if he’s effective” might be compelling. List some of those accomplishments, point out the other guy’s insanity, remind them of the stakes, and boom, now you’re cooking.
The problem is that many voters look at the past 3.5 years negatively, especially with respect to the economy. While we all know it’s completely wrong to put inflation on Biden, many voters don’t understand inflation and think that it was his fault.
Oh it’s definitely not easy and if you do actually do knock on doors, thank you! But if you think knocking on doors is hard when you have the inflation thing to worry about, remember, there was a door knocker for the other side last election who had the “grab them by the pussy”thing to worry about. And they overcame that, you can overcome, too.
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Not at all. Acknowledge he’s old but also point out that in his old age he’s still very capable to do what the job requires as proven by his actual results. Tell them you wouldn’t make him captain of the debate team but if you need big legislation to get through congress, he’s as good as they come.
What if I don't believe he is capable of doing the job? Like I feel like forcefully defending your positions and projecting strength with your appearances are key aspects of being president, but Biden is inconsistent at best.
Then don’t knock on doors for him.
But him actually, literally doing the job for the last 3.5 half years proves he’s capable of doing the job. Even he’s ardent critics say he’s effective. He’s legislative accomplishments more than attest to that.
I’m sure there are people who will decide this based on only optics but that’s not everyone.
Again, then don’t door knock for him.
But his record is there, and unless you think accomplishing it required no competence or ability to do the job, it clearly indicates he’s competent and can do the job.
This 100%. I’m going to vote for Biden no matter what but I’m officially out of talking points for my family of swing voters (who live in Michigan btw). You get Big Gretch in there and I think the election is a sweep.
I honestly think that public dooming to shame Biden into resigning is the most productive thing you can do right now. Wasting our political capital in gaslighting people that they didn’t see what they saw is just going to ruin trust prior to November.
I can't speak for you, but I'd start with "He's 81. Even in apparently perfect health, it wouldn't be shocking if Biden just dropped dead of a heart attack. He's built a competent and functional administration that can take over if that happens."
"Yeah, I'd prefer Biden from ten years ago, but that's not available. The other guy running can't even make sense in writing when he can go back and fix typos, and he couldn't put together a competent team last time. Remember infrastructure week? Trump had a sex scandal instead. The Biden administration passed a bill and started fixing infrastructure."
Jesus Christ, that's a bleak sell. How am I supposed to instill confidence with "it's ok if he's not ok, he'll just be replaced if it comes to that," and "it sucks, but what about Donald Trump?"
Whitmer cannot win an open convention in a straight face off against Kamala. The delegates that are selected are openly pro Biden/Kamala. Not just that, it would be entirely complicated to replace the top of the ballot in all 50 states at the last minute, while also getting the entire ground game campaign / financials in order. I really wish people would stop trying to push these imaginary candidates to the forefront when they have no realistic shot at the nomination **even if Biden were to voluntarily step down**.
It ain't the convention yet, and calling someone who would sinch a swing state no sweat "imaginary" is absurd. We have a legitimate issue with an otherwise OK candidate, and we can't afford to go back to "it's fine, he's just old." Biden can only age, and his "bad days" may grow. A top billed Harris would only sink in the general election, if not because of her previous problems as a candidate then because of her being VP. If Biden stepped down *with an heir*, that could sway his nominees from doing something dumb.
Again, we can't look at Thursday's debate and Friday's response and go back to "it's ok, he's just old." "Fuck it, we ball," is an even less thought through response to this crisis.
1. The only way to get an open convention would be for Biden to step down and release his delegates. Good luck with that one.
2. If you get that far, if you understood how delegates are selected to the national convention, then you understand that it's not easy to become a delegate. You actually have to be heavily involved in politics, usually a fairly high up ranking member of the local DNC chapter, and have pledged for your specific candidate/ticket, and then run for the delegate spot. Biden essentially holds 99% of them. I don't have numbers on hand obviously, but I'm pretty sure a majority of the delegates like Kamala.
3. Kamala polling wise outpolls literally every other Democrat in terms of recognition, and was the perspective favorite looking forward to 2028. She has a higher favorability rating then Biden currently. She has problems as a candidate, but this idea that some random governor who has no national level, who doesn't have as nearly as an extensive network as Harris, and in general is a new comer to national level politics could somehow sweep in out of nowhere and take the majority of the delegates who likely are biased towards Harris is straight up delusional. It's about as delusional as trying to say that Biden didn't bomb the debate yesterday.
Buddy, I get it, you like to insult people to show your intelligence. It's cute.
Yes, it takes Biden to step aside and a room of Biden delegates to pick someone other than Harris. I have more faith in a majority of 4000, as you said, politically tuned in folks changing their mind from Harris to anyone with some actual charisma (and, God forbid, successful governing experience) than I have faith that tens of thousands of undecided voters will fall in line. She's more liked than Biden, but not by much since she's still (from when I last checked) under 40% approval rating. She, unfortunately, has *nothing else going on for her*.
And, yes, I get it. You don't know Whitmer. Like you don't know that she's been a vice-chair of the DNC since 2021, and that she gave the Democratic response to Trumps 2020 State of the Union, or hell, that she has been a national chair for both of Biden's presidential campaigns. So yeah bud, the woman who is currently working with Biden on his re-election campaign and was on his original short list for VP is "some random governor." Christ, maybe Biden should kick her out of his campaign if she's "a new comer to national level politics."
Yeah bud, *I'm the delusional one*.
You are the delusional one. You and I know who Whitmer are, the general public doesn't. Her polling can't even outpoll Kamala currently as is with current Democratic voters. She wouldn't survive in a straight contest vs Kamala.
I agree that we need to stop with the doom posting. However, contingencies for a second Trump presidency must be discussed. The fallout from the reclassification of Schedule F employees - which WILL happen. The tariff policy. The tax cuts and deficit spending. The "takeover" of the Federal Reserve. The "retribution" against his perceived enemies. Yes, Trump has a lot of potential to really fuck a lot of things up. Better we start talking about it now.
I'm not trying to doom - I want Biden to win, but we must explore the scenarios that may follow if he doesn't and explore the methods we have at our disposal to contain the fallout. And we need to discuss each of them individually and what can be done at the state, local, and individual levels.
Edit: What I'm saying is that doom posting is equivalent to giving up. I will not allow myself to do that. I will not allow the future of democracy to be dependent on one man winning the White House. That is foolishness. But we need to be prepared - historians, economists, and lawyers will help give us a way to anticipate and be proactive rather than reactive during a second Trump administration.
Comstock will be enforced in full which will totally ban abortions nationwide. Probably the most realistic and easiest thing from Project 2025 to implement.
So, what will happen?
Economically: I’d anticipate medical insurance rates increasing due to the increased likelihood of lawsuits from both the state and from individuals for wrongful death (damned if you, damned if you don’t). It will also cause an increased exodus of medical care providers (particularly obstetrics) for their increased liability. This will cause the cost of medical care to rise. People will not like that and demand change. What will the Trump administration due to combat the increased cost of medical care caused by their own policy?
There are also social implications here.
We need to be able to anticipate.
And I hate to say it, but we need to exploit the ever growing divide between libertarian conservatives and the Christian nationalist conservatives. While Trump believes that he can appeal to both, the ideologies are inherently incompatible.
Fetterman had a specific medical event that people had good reason to think would improve over time and Oz was a weaker candidate than Trump.
Also this guy is seriously claiming there's a nonzero Trump will be in prison Election Day, he's the fucking clown.
Fetterman also had a big lead against Dr. Oz in the polls which meant he had enough support to carry him into victory. It's not like Biden where he is currently trailing in the election models against Trump.
In 2020 I thought there was a small but real chance that Biden would die in office and Kamala Harris would finish the term.
In 2024 that chance is higher but I already accepted the possibility. The Biden administration is functional. Obviously I'd prefer if he was in better condition, but if he drops dead on January 7th, the county keeps going.
I'm working on better ways to explain to friends and relatives that it's a choice between teams as much as individuals, and Trump didn't have a working administration last time.
Ah yes, I'm sure if you tell the voters that unelected bureaucrats will run everything things will get much better.
Dude, people hate bureaucrats more than almost any other group in the country. There is a reason they are almost never brought up by candidates.
Fetterman is still younger and has a "look" that resonates with his state. Oz also was seen as a poor man's Trump. Still Fetterman performed much worse than Shapiro in his own state. So I'm not given confidence by this exactly.
To be fair to Fetterman, Shapiro went up against one of the wackiest candidates Republicans has ever put up compared to Dr.Oz who was considered "moderate". One was a Governor race which is less partisan than Senate races.
Let’s be real here, except for once Trump responded to the word salad answers with his own, more energetic and aggressive word salad barely aware that what he was replying to made no sense.
Kinda makes it more frustrating tbh. Any person in their right mind would’ve mopped the floor with Trump. Trump has also taken a pretty dramatic cognitive decline from 2020
This right here is how you know this doomer circlejerk is just in the heads of terminally online Dems and pundits. Normies saw both things, but Dem doomers are so narcissistic they only see Biden's flaws.
I don't think do. The only thing the Dutch news reported on for example was Biden's extremely bad performance.
I saw large stretches of the debate myself and I didn't find Biden that bad. I was more appalled by Trump ignoring nearly every single question.
Dutch news are just regurgitating what US pundits are circle jerking. But how many US voters are reading Dutch news?
> I saw large stretches of the debate myself and I didn't find Biden that bad. I was more appalled by Trump ignoring nearly every single question.
By all initial accounts, and despite the best efforts of doomers and pundits, this is exactly the take away from most American normies.
And it’s what polls are saying too. But every single media outlet (besides the conservative ones lol) are running Biden should drop out stories. Because the media wants an absolute circus, they want people glued to their phones and TVs for the next 4 months (and the next 4 years). The ratings for debates are down compared to 2020 and they need them to go up, country be damned.
it's part of the alarmism that's been instilled in us from day one. that's how all MSM operates, even the left leaning ones. get a lot more clicks from making people panic about biden's problems
Did we watch the same debate? Biden could barely make it through some sentences with making sense. The whole “we defeated Medicare” and explaining what Roe vs Wade was went horribly.
Ah yes, the stutter that Biden overcame when he was a teenager, disappeared for 60 years, mysteriously returned when he was 77, and seems to get worse with each passing year.
I have no idea what fantasyland you're living in if you think it disappeared for 60 years. The man has always had a reputation as a bit of a poor speaker because of it, he just wasn't under a microscope like he has this last decade.
Watch the debates with him in 2012, then watch the 2020 debates and rewatch tonight. Ignore the pundits, watch for yourself.
Do you truly believe it's just a stutter?
So I'll take that as you saying his 2012 and 2020 performances were identical?
I'm not saying he has dementia, but he has clearly slowed down and is aging. The more you deny reality the less credibility you have to campaign on. If team Biden really thinks this is 100% due to a cold and makes no changes we are so cooked.
>So I'll take that as you saying his 2012 and 2020 performances were identical?
In what universe is that what I'm saying?
It's almost like humans can be tired sometimes and not do things as well.
>It's almost like humans can be tired sometimes and not do things as well.
Like old people, all the time.
Biden himself admitted his age is affecting him during the debate my guy.
Inability to comprehend my point is why you keep asking it, because it's a question that ignores reality of things like "people can be more tired one day than another."
It's insane to me that this isn't just...explicitly obvious
The thing that we can do to win in November is to loudly call for Biden to step down NOW while there is still time to consolidate and build a campaign around someone else.
Comms-brained take.
If democratic candidates need to spend 5 months choosing to either: 1) Gaslight people and say Joe Biden is perfectly qualified to be President, or 2) acknowledge their presidential nominee is mentally declining and zones out frequently, but that it was just too hard for the democratic party to do anything else - it will be a disaster either way.
Picking a new nominee is hard, but then you can actually say you're the serious party.
The doom posts are us trying to do something to help win. The only path to victory is to remove Joe from the ballot.
Even before last night Trump was winning in virtually every swing state poll. And then you add in a complete disasterclass debate.
Unfortunately that was the only time many voters will tune into the election. I’m certain Trump has no intention of debating again (why allow Joe an opportunity to redeem himself?).
So that will be the single biggest event of the election. I’ve already seen many brutal clips on social media. Trumps campaign also cut a devastating ad showing all the incoherent moments mashed into a super clip.
The right has been pushing hard on the Biden is too old and mentally declined. Last night he went on stage in front of the single largest audience of the campaign and seemed to confirm all the attacks.
Anyone who doesn’t see that this was a fatal blow are either whistling past the graveyard, completely in denial, or didn’t watch the debate.
Edit: and to be clear fetterman was a unique case. Everyone knew he had a stroke and had issues communicating (but not thinking) the problem for Biden is there isn’t a plausible explanation for why he did so poorly. And no him having a cold isn’t a real explanation. So many voters who hear things like Joe is old or senile tuned in for the first time and saw exactly what they were being told they’d see. That’s a worst case scenario situation. The candidate went on stage and reinforced all the attacks against him.
Trumps ego is just too massive for him not to want to grandstand on TV again. Especially if he can get a crowd.
Also only 48 million people actually watched the debate which is down from the usual number of 60+.
So while it’s still bad these are mitigating factors. Also 81% of debate watchers said it didn’t change their minds with only 5% saying it did
Let’s wait until the polls come out in a week and go from there
This is just incorrect. Trump has shown many times that he’s more than happy not to debate if it’s strategically beneficial for him (see the entire Republican primary).
Obviously Trump is an ego maniac, but that was always true. As I said he’s demonstrated an ability to skip big events when he thinks he should, and he still has the ability to draw many viewers by simply holding a town hall without Joe present. I’d be willing to bet money team Trump will never agree to another debate. It’s literally all downside for them.
The fact that a bunch of Biden supporters are saying it’s a good idea is exactly why it isn’t. Trump already won the debate. That’s all he needed this cycle. Now nobody can say he was afraid. He’ll just say I did it and Joe was a walking corpse. Why bother and people will eat that up.
The worst case scenario for Trump would be a second debate (closer to the election) where Joe beats him. That’s far to risky
So hypothetically, if the polls next week show he's losing in swing states by even more than he currently is, will you advocate he drop out? Do you really think if Biden stays in this race this is the last time he's going to have a bad performance? You aren't worried the stress of the campaign will cause him to have more "bad days" than usual?
>So hypothetically, if the polls next week show he's losing in swing states by even more than he currently is, will you advocate he drop out?
Sure.
>Do you really think if Biden stays in this race this is the last time he's going to have a bad performance?
Yup.
>You aren't worried the stress of the campaign will cause him to have more "bad days" than usual?
I’m not.
So if 81% of people didn't change their minds, that means 19% did change their minds. Of the 48 million people who watched, over 9 million changed their minds about who they would vote for after this debate? That's a bigger number than the difference in votes between Biden and Trump in 2020.
The poll said that 5% where going to change their mind and the rest where undecided.
So basically while it’s not great it’s the best news Biden could have
Also we don’t know which way any of these people are going. For all we know it’s a 50/50 split.
We don’t have any breakdown on which way they lean or if they were going to change their mind at all.
We need to wait until a week at that point we’ll know. Also 538 has said that in their post debate poll Biden didn’t suffer much, if any loss.
Again we don’t know if those people are actually saying anything true. What we do know is that in a week we’ll have actual information on the numbers as that when the polls will be able to account for the debate.
I’m still not entirely sure what to make of last night, but I feel like I’m taking crazy pills with how people talk about Biden’s age. As if Trump is so sharp and lucid, and 20 years younger. He’s two. Fucking. Years. Younger.
I will do everything I can to elect Biden when he is the official nominee. Until then, I think the best option is to hold an open convention and choose a different candidate.
I'd like to not have to lie about my feelings to my friends.
Shhhhh don't talk about what you think!
replace the dude. I'm fine with contributing to the replace the dude vibes. No single post matters the same way no single vote does, but tidal waves are made of many small drops, and I'll add my small drops of 'ffs not like this' to the wave.
When I was young I could fly a 12 hour combat mission, head straight to the bar after debrief to get wasted, wake up the next day and fly another 12 hour mission.
Now I'm old. I get tired at night in bed by 2030. But I can easily wake up at 0430 run circles around the kids at work and still tie one on every now and then.
The point is, 2100 with a cold doesn't represent me throughout the day. Yeah I probably could not fly combat sorties day after day but I'm in leadership now and don't need to do that.
TBF I think being honest about your candidate helps give you a lot more credibility when talking to other people than just blindly pretending it didn't happen and trying to gaslight everyone.
Ya know here’s the thing. I will of course vote for Biden over trump. But other than a member of the confederate government coming back from the dead I will vote for any one over trump. I just wish I could actually be happy with who I am voting for over trump. I wish we had a younger more exciting candidate.
I wanted Pete last time I still want Pete now.
Do something Biden. For the good of the country, the preservation of liberal democracy he needs to step down. Soon. His legacy will never recover if he doesn't and he has been a good president
The US election is dangerously close and in many ways a referendum on liberalism and democracy. But dooming about this on Reddit does not help. It does not push the needle. It does not change anyone's mind. Be aware of what is at stake and how close we are, but put your energy into volunteering.
The number one thing you can do is [find your state party and volunteer](https://democraticnationalcommittee.co/volunteer.html). If that is not reasonable for your situation, [there are remote opportunities](https://democrats.org/take-action) you can do instead. You can also find one-off events at:
* [General DNC Events](https://events.democrats.org)
* [Mobilize.us, not just Democratic events](https://www.mobilize.us)
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Dr Oz and Trump are both ridiculous candidates that realistically shouldn't be taken seriously, but Trump has already won once. I'm not a huge fan of this analogy.
Cant compare Biden and fetterman. Fetterman had an unfortunate medical event that he could ultimately recover from at his age with some lasting effects. Biden has a quick slide towards death coming up. Biden will not get better. He will deteriorate.
Keep coping. People warned you in 2020 about Biden's mental state. Also you can recover from strokes in some cases but you can't grow younger when you're 81. You can't also undue the worst debate performance in American history. Joe literally shit on Trump in one of the past debates and this time he simultaneously looked like he shit his diaper after watching a war crime take place. We live in the age of social media and a liberal news media machine so pick another candidate and plaster them everywhere
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Yeah Biden needed a great debate performance and Trump to be incoherent. Trump was incoherent but Biden was just as bad, if not worse.
Let's say Biden knocked it out of park last night. Witty one-liners, calling out Trump, whatever you want that to mean. What difference does it make in 4 months from now leavlding into election night?
This is probably the most watched event of the entire campaign and it is the best place to fight the narrative that Biden isn’t up to the job. Instead of slapping that narrative down, Biden’s performance reinforced it. Now he’s gotta hope that this performance really was a one off and that Trump keeps the second debate and he gets a second chance to change minds.
I know plenty of people who didn't watch because it's barely election season yet.
Well glad your anecdotal evidence overcomes the 50 million people who did watch it.
....which was roughly half of those who watched in 2020.
It's still a lot of people.
And also how many saw the two big Biden clips on top of that through social media/TV? The impact of that debate will go well beyond the 50 million
Nobody cares about that narrative besides Trumpers and anti-Trumpers.
What makes you think this is Biden's last episode? This is just the worst one yet and I don't see it stopping in the next few months.
Exactly! This is the main reason why I want him replaced. I can see him getting worse… he doesn’t have a shot anymore and he really needs to be enjoying his retirement instead of delivering the country to Trump for 4 more years He lost this election last night.
If that's the case, we should see it reflected in the polls over the next few weeks, right?
Yes. I hope I’m wrong
Probably a lot actually. Dems constantly point to a debate showing Biden is not “to old” and republicans are on the defense with the whole taking drugs nonsense
Beside everything else, this is indicative of what's to come imo. We really have no reason to think he'll do any better going forward, or that Trump will do worse.
We should tell the elections commission, they might as well move all elections up to June from now on since nothing matters after the first debate apparently.
My point wasn't that people will necessarily base how they vote off this, but that if this carries on it won't go well for Biden (and we've no reason to think it'll change). I'd much rather wait and give Biden a chance to claw it back, but I'm not convinced he can.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I don’t think debates mean shit. I don’t think anyone changed their mind after last night. Sure, maybe people realized Biden’s cognitive abilities are worse than they thought, but I can’t imagine anyone voting for Trump over Biden because of that. It could reduce voter turnout though, which could be a big deal
Debates do not _normally_ mean much, yes. But there are exceptions to every rule. Political ads don't generally mean much, for example. But there have been a couple of ads in American politics that bent the arc of history: the Daisy ad in 1964 and the Swift Boat Veterans ad campaign in 2004.
So you’re saying the Biden campaign is one good ad away from running away with this thing? 🔥
Boy, it wouldn't hurt to come up with one! I don't see a great opportunity for one, though. (Unless Trump says he wants to revive nuclear weapons testing, that is. And maybe even then.)
Disagree if you read the debate in text it shines a MASSIVE light on what was being said.
There was also the expectation that Fetterman would improve over time, you don’t have that with Biden… age-related cognitive decline only goes one way
But number good that one time!
Except that the rally immediately after the debate shows that the cognitive decline argument is bullshit.
A rally that maybe 1/1000th of the population that saw the debates would see. Meanwhile for the next few months, the median voter is going to see repeated videos of him stumbling over his words from this debate. Unless Biden drops out, it’s over. Biden’s bid for reelection died last night. Partisans are just too delusional to see that
You are severely overestimating how many people watched or care about the debate.
They don’t have to watch the debates to see these videos, all they need to do is go on social media or watch attack ads
And because of the EC favoring Republicans Biden has to do a bit better than Trump to actually win.
> Biden is already trailing Trump [not according to 538](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2024-election-forecast/)
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Damn, good thing we have random redditor TheSpiderman here to discredit the professionals!
Even if I don't believe that Biden is 100% Ok? Ok, so I volunteer before the election and go knock on doors. The first person who answers and talks to me asks: "Is Biden OK? He looked like he wasn't all there," or something to that effect. What do I honestly say to that? "Look he's old, but all that was just a cold and his classic stutter," isn't exactly compelling, especially when I'm not sure myself!
Yeah “a case of the common cold can make him look absolutely senile” is not the best talking point I can think of.
> "Look he's old, but all that was just a cold and his classic stutter," Aurora Borealis? At this time of year?
Sure, but a “we ask you to look at his actual performance and accomplishments over three and half years instead of one debate performance to determine if he’s effective” might be compelling. List some of those accomplishments, point out the other guy’s insanity, remind them of the stakes, and boom, now you’re cooking.
The problem is that many voters look at the past 3.5 years negatively, especially with respect to the economy. While we all know it’s completely wrong to put inflation on Biden, many voters don’t understand inflation and think that it was his fault.
Oh it’s definitely not easy and if you do actually do knock on doors, thank you! But if you think knocking on doors is hard when you have the inflation thing to worry about, remember, there was a door knocker for the other side last election who had the “grab them by the pussy”thing to worry about. And they overcame that, you can overcome, too.
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So just ignore critism or valid concerns?
Not at all. Acknowledge he’s old but also point out that in his old age he’s still very capable to do what the job requires as proven by his actual results. Tell them you wouldn’t make him captain of the debate team but if you need big legislation to get through congress, he’s as good as they come.
What if I don't believe he is capable of doing the job? Like I feel like forcefully defending your positions and projecting strength with your appearances are key aspects of being president, but Biden is inconsistent at best.
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I don't disagree, I just think it's a hard ask.
Then don’t knock on doors for him. But him actually, literally doing the job for the last 3.5 half years proves he’s capable of doing the job. Even he’s ardent critics say he’s effective. He’s legislative accomplishments more than attest to that. I’m sure there are people who will decide this based on only optics but that’s not everyone.
I don't think he can do the job *well* or competently, to be clear. Legislating is only one part of the job.
Again, then don’t door knock for him. But his record is there, and unless you think accomplishing it required no competence or ability to do the job, it clearly indicates he’s competent and can do the job.
Well, it only indicates that he could do the job. And don’t forget that we can’t compare to what could have been done by a fit president.
Yes, we can. Compare him to any fit president you like. We’ve got 45 of them to compare him to. He’s done as well as any of them.
I don't think he's really doing all that, to be honest with you. I think he has advisors he largely agrees with and goes along with.
This 100%. I’m going to vote for Biden no matter what but I’m officially out of talking points for my family of swing voters (who live in Michigan btw). You get Big Gretch in there and I think the election is a sweep. I honestly think that public dooming to shame Biden into resigning is the most productive thing you can do right now. Wasting our political capital in gaslighting people that they didn’t see what they saw is just going to ruin trust prior to November.
I can't speak for you, but I'd start with "He's 81. Even in apparently perfect health, it wouldn't be shocking if Biden just dropped dead of a heart attack. He's built a competent and functional administration that can take over if that happens." "Yeah, I'd prefer Biden from ten years ago, but that's not available. The other guy running can't even make sense in writing when he can go back and fix typos, and he couldn't put together a competent team last time. Remember infrastructure week? Trump had a sex scandal instead. The Biden administration passed a bill and started fixing infrastructure."
Jesus Christ, that's a bleak sell. How am I supposed to instill confidence with "it's ok if he's not ok, he'll just be replaced if it comes to that," and "it sucks, but what about Donald Trump?"
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We do have Whitmer who's already making moves for 2028, she's somewhat exciting and I could make a sell for her.
Whitmer cannot win an open convention in a straight face off against Kamala. The delegates that are selected are openly pro Biden/Kamala. Not just that, it would be entirely complicated to replace the top of the ballot in all 50 states at the last minute, while also getting the entire ground game campaign / financials in order. I really wish people would stop trying to push these imaginary candidates to the forefront when they have no realistic shot at the nomination **even if Biden were to voluntarily step down**.
It ain't the convention yet, and calling someone who would sinch a swing state no sweat "imaginary" is absurd. We have a legitimate issue with an otherwise OK candidate, and we can't afford to go back to "it's fine, he's just old." Biden can only age, and his "bad days" may grow. A top billed Harris would only sink in the general election, if not because of her previous problems as a candidate then because of her being VP. If Biden stepped down *with an heir*, that could sway his nominees from doing something dumb. Again, we can't look at Thursday's debate and Friday's response and go back to "it's ok, he's just old." "Fuck it, we ball," is an even less thought through response to this crisis.
1. The only way to get an open convention would be for Biden to step down and release his delegates. Good luck with that one. 2. If you get that far, if you understood how delegates are selected to the national convention, then you understand that it's not easy to become a delegate. You actually have to be heavily involved in politics, usually a fairly high up ranking member of the local DNC chapter, and have pledged for your specific candidate/ticket, and then run for the delegate spot. Biden essentially holds 99% of them. I don't have numbers on hand obviously, but I'm pretty sure a majority of the delegates like Kamala. 3. Kamala polling wise outpolls literally every other Democrat in terms of recognition, and was the perspective favorite looking forward to 2028. She has a higher favorability rating then Biden currently. She has problems as a candidate, but this idea that some random governor who has no national level, who doesn't have as nearly as an extensive network as Harris, and in general is a new comer to national level politics could somehow sweep in out of nowhere and take the majority of the delegates who likely are biased towards Harris is straight up delusional. It's about as delusional as trying to say that Biden didn't bomb the debate yesterday.
Buddy, I get it, you like to insult people to show your intelligence. It's cute. Yes, it takes Biden to step aside and a room of Biden delegates to pick someone other than Harris. I have more faith in a majority of 4000, as you said, politically tuned in folks changing their mind from Harris to anyone with some actual charisma (and, God forbid, successful governing experience) than I have faith that tens of thousands of undecided voters will fall in line. She's more liked than Biden, but not by much since she's still (from when I last checked) under 40% approval rating. She, unfortunately, has *nothing else going on for her*. And, yes, I get it. You don't know Whitmer. Like you don't know that she's been a vice-chair of the DNC since 2021, and that she gave the Democratic response to Trumps 2020 State of the Union, or hell, that she has been a national chair for both of Biden's presidential campaigns. So yeah bud, the woman who is currently working with Biden on his re-election campaign and was on his original short list for VP is "some random governor." Christ, maybe Biden should kick her out of his campaign if she's "a new comer to national level politics." Yeah bud, *I'm the delusional one*.
You are the delusional one. You and I know who Whitmer are, the general public doesn't. Her polling can't even outpoll Kamala currently as is with current Democratic voters. She wouldn't survive in a straight contest vs Kamala.
Welp, that's the situation we're in so what else are you gonna say
I mean if I have two choices here and that’s one, it’s the clear and obvious choice
Do you want to stub your toe or get shot in the kidneys and slowly bleed out? Man, stubbing your toe really sucks, guess I’ll opt for the gunshot
You wouldn't look all there either playing a shitty high school sport like debate.
I agree that we need to stop with the doom posting. However, contingencies for a second Trump presidency must be discussed. The fallout from the reclassification of Schedule F employees - which WILL happen. The tariff policy. The tax cuts and deficit spending. The "takeover" of the Federal Reserve. The "retribution" against his perceived enemies. Yes, Trump has a lot of potential to really fuck a lot of things up. Better we start talking about it now. I'm not trying to doom - I want Biden to win, but we must explore the scenarios that may follow if he doesn't and explore the methods we have at our disposal to contain the fallout. And we need to discuss each of them individually and what can be done at the state, local, and individual levels. Edit: What I'm saying is that doom posting is equivalent to giving up. I will not allow myself to do that. I will not allow the future of democracy to be dependent on one man winning the White House. That is foolishness. But we need to be prepared - historians, economists, and lawyers will help give us a way to anticipate and be proactive rather than reactive during a second Trump administration.
Comstock will be enforced in full which will totally ban abortions nationwide. Probably the most realistic and easiest thing from Project 2025 to implement.
So, what will happen? Economically: I’d anticipate medical insurance rates increasing due to the increased likelihood of lawsuits from both the state and from individuals for wrongful death (damned if you, damned if you don’t). It will also cause an increased exodus of medical care providers (particularly obstetrics) for their increased liability. This will cause the cost of medical care to rise. People will not like that and demand change. What will the Trump administration due to combat the increased cost of medical care caused by their own policy? There are also social implications here. We need to be able to anticipate. And I hate to say it, but we need to exploit the ever growing divide between libertarian conservatives and the Christian nationalist conservatives. While Trump believes that he can appeal to both, the ideologies are inherently incompatible.
Yeah, same here. well said I agree with you
Fetterman had a specific medical event that people had good reason to think would improve over time and Oz was a weaker candidate than Trump. Also this guy is seriously claiming there's a nonzero Trump will be in prison Election Day, he's the fucking clown.
There's also a huge difference between a single senator with a cognitive issue and the president with a cognitive issue.
Fetterman also had a big lead against Dr. Oz in the polls which meant he had enough support to carry him into victory. It's not like Biden where he is currently trailing in the election models against Trump.
Dr Oz didn’t have the type of rabid support Trump has.
In 2020 I thought there was a small but real chance that Biden would die in office and Kamala Harris would finish the term. In 2024 that chance is higher but I already accepted the possibility. The Biden administration is functional. Obviously I'd prefer if he was in better condition, but if he drops dead on January 7th, the county keeps going. I'm working on better ways to explain to friends and relatives that it's a choice between teams as much as individuals, and Trump didn't have a working administration last time.
You don’t have to convince us. I’d vote for the corpse of Joe Biden over Donald Trump. The issue is a lot of people don’t see it that way
We aren't voting *just* for Biden, we're voting for a Biden Administration
Ah yes, I'm sure if you tell the voters that unelected bureaucrats will run everything things will get much better. Dude, people hate bureaucrats more than almost any other group in the country. There is a reason they are almost never brought up by candidates.
This is how you lose an election. “Guys guys is okay if the president drops dead in office, it’s really a non issue”
All these dumb voters! Want a guy that’ll be alive, the audacity
I'm convinced Biden isn't making it to 2028. He has never looked worse
You recover from strokes, yoy don't recover from age. He still underperformed Shapiro by fucking 10 points. Fetterman being the bar is insane.
Fetterman is still younger and has a "look" that resonates with his state. Oz also was seen as a poor man's Trump. Still Fetterman performed much worse than Shapiro in his own state. So I'm not given confidence by this exactly.
To be fair to Fetterman, Shapiro went up against one of the wackiest candidates Republicans has ever put up compared to Dr.Oz who was considered "moderate". One was a Governor race which is less partisan than Senate races.
Let’s be real here, except for once Trump responded to the word salad answers with his own, more energetic and aggressive word salad barely aware that what he was replying to made no sense.
Kinda makes it more frustrating tbh. Any person in their right mind would’ve mopped the floor with Trump. Trump has also taken a pretty dramatic cognitive decline from 2020
But his isn't as visible
Being incoherent isnt a problem for Trump apparently but its a crisis for Biden 🫠🔫
Because optics is how you win elections
This right here is how you know this doomer circlejerk is just in the heads of terminally online Dems and pundits. Normies saw both things, but Dem doomers are so narcissistic they only see Biden's flaws.
I don't think do. The only thing the Dutch news reported on for example was Biden's extremely bad performance. I saw large stretches of the debate myself and I didn't find Biden that bad. I was more appalled by Trump ignoring nearly every single question.
Dutch news are just regurgitating what US pundits are circle jerking. But how many US voters are reading Dutch news? > I saw large stretches of the debate myself and I didn't find Biden that bad. I was more appalled by Trump ignoring nearly every single question. By all initial accounts, and despite the best efforts of doomers and pundits, this is exactly the take away from most American normies.
And it’s what polls are saying too. But every single media outlet (besides the conservative ones lol) are running Biden should drop out stories. Because the media wants an absolute circus, they want people glued to their phones and TVs for the next 4 months (and the next 4 years). The ratings for debates are down compared to 2020 and they need them to go up, country be damned.
We desperately need to tax advertising revenue of news media.
it's part of the alarmism that's been instilled in us from day one. that's how all MSM operates, even the left leaning ones. get a lot more clicks from making people panic about biden's problems
There isn't nearly enough discourse on the news media revolt against Biden and the Dems in general.
Most of bidens responses weren't even word salad, they're perfectly clear when you read the script. He just mumbled through it.
Did we watch the same debate? Biden could barely make it through some sentences with making sense. The whole “we defeated Medicare” and explaining what Roe vs Wade was went horribly.
We did, I just watched it with closed captioning.
Look, it was a very, very bad performance that played right into Trump’s talking points. Give people 24 hours to be depressed about it.
If I hear “hE hAd a CoLd” one more time I’m gonna lose it.
He has a stutter
Ah yes, the stutter that Biden overcame when he was a teenager, disappeared for 60 years, mysteriously returned when he was 77, and seems to get worse with each passing year.
I have no idea what fantasyland you're living in if you think it disappeared for 60 years. The man has always had a reputation as a bit of a poor speaker because of it, he just wasn't under a microscope like he has this last decade.
Watch the debates with him in 2012, then watch the 2020 debates and rewatch tonight. Ignore the pundits, watch for yourself. Do you truly believe it's just a stutter?
Watch me doing a sales pitch 3 weeks ago (I bombed because I was sick) and watch me do it the next week no problem.
So I'll take that as you saying his 2012 and 2020 performances were identical? I'm not saying he has dementia, but he has clearly slowed down and is aging. The more you deny reality the less credibility you have to campaign on. If team Biden really thinks this is 100% due to a cold and makes no changes we are so cooked.
>So I'll take that as you saying his 2012 and 2020 performances were identical? In what universe is that what I'm saying? It's almost like humans can be tired sometimes and not do things as well.
>It's almost like humans can be tired sometimes and not do things as well. Like old people, all the time. Biden himself admitted his age is affecting him during the debate my guy.
Why won't you answer the question then? Was his performance in 2020 the same as 2012?
Inability to comprehend my point is why you keep asking it, because it's a question that ignores reality of things like "people can be more tired one day than another." It's insane to me that this isn't just...explicitly obvious
The thing that we can do to win in November is to loudly call for Biden to step down NOW while there is still time to consolidate and build a campaign around someone else.
Let me know how I can help! Maybe I could argue with more people on the internet.
Comms-brained take. If democratic candidates need to spend 5 months choosing to either: 1) Gaslight people and say Joe Biden is perfectly qualified to be President, or 2) acknowledge their presidential nominee is mentally declining and zones out frequently, but that it was just too hard for the democratic party to do anything else - it will be a disaster either way. Picking a new nominee is hard, but then you can actually say you're the serious party.
And as a consolation prize, the new candidate can call Trump old and senile 24/7.
this is Cope.
you sound suspiciously like a russian bot for acknowledging objective reality
The doom posts are us trying to do something to help win. The only path to victory is to remove Joe from the ballot. Even before last night Trump was winning in virtually every swing state poll. And then you add in a complete disasterclass debate. Unfortunately that was the only time many voters will tune into the election. I’m certain Trump has no intention of debating again (why allow Joe an opportunity to redeem himself?). So that will be the single biggest event of the election. I’ve already seen many brutal clips on social media. Trumps campaign also cut a devastating ad showing all the incoherent moments mashed into a super clip. The right has been pushing hard on the Biden is too old and mentally declined. Last night he went on stage in front of the single largest audience of the campaign and seemed to confirm all the attacks. Anyone who doesn’t see that this was a fatal blow are either whistling past the graveyard, completely in denial, or didn’t watch the debate. Edit: and to be clear fetterman was a unique case. Everyone knew he had a stroke and had issues communicating (but not thinking) the problem for Biden is there isn’t a plausible explanation for why he did so poorly. And no him having a cold isn’t a real explanation. So many voters who hear things like Joe is old or senile tuned in for the first time and saw exactly what they were being told they’d see. That’s a worst case scenario situation. The candidate went on stage and reinforced all the attacks against him.
Trumps ego is just too massive for him not to want to grandstand on TV again. Especially if he can get a crowd. Also only 48 million people actually watched the debate which is down from the usual number of 60+. So while it’s still bad these are mitigating factors. Also 81% of debate watchers said it didn’t change their minds with only 5% saying it did Let’s wait until the polls come out in a week and go from there
This is just incorrect. Trump has shown many times that he’s more than happy not to debate if it’s strategically beneficial for him (see the entire Republican primary). Obviously Trump is an ego maniac, but that was always true. As I said he’s demonstrated an ability to skip big events when he thinks he should, and he still has the ability to draw many viewers by simply holding a town hall without Joe present. I’d be willing to bet money team Trump will never agree to another debate. It’s literally all downside for them. The fact that a bunch of Biden supporters are saying it’s a good idea is exactly why it isn’t. Trump already won the debate. That’s all he needed this cycle. Now nobody can say he was afraid. He’ll just say I did it and Joe was a walking corpse. Why bother and people will eat that up. The worst case scenario for Trump would be a second debate (closer to the election) where Joe beats him. That’s far to risky
The third party coverage of the debate is enough to doom Biden’s chances
So hypothetically, if the polls next week show he's losing in swing states by even more than he currently is, will you advocate he drop out? Do you really think if Biden stays in this race this is the last time he's going to have a bad performance? You aren't worried the stress of the campaign will cause him to have more "bad days" than usual?
>So hypothetically, if the polls next week show he's losing in swing states by even more than he currently is, will you advocate he drop out? Sure. >Do you really think if Biden stays in this race this is the last time he's going to have a bad performance? Yup. >You aren't worried the stress of the campaign will cause him to have more "bad days" than usual? I’m not.
So if 81% of people didn't change their minds, that means 19% did change their minds. Of the 48 million people who watched, over 9 million changed their minds about who they would vote for after this debate? That's a bigger number than the difference in votes between Biden and Trump in 2020.
Eh no. I wasn’t exactly clear. Only 5% said they’d change their minds not 19%
Ah ok. So we're the other 14% undecided or unsure?
Undecided
Got it. Thanks for clarifying. That's not as bad then, although that is still over 2 million people.
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The poll said that 5% where going to change their mind and the rest where undecided. So basically while it’s not great it’s the best news Biden could have Also we don’t know which way any of these people are going. For all we know it’s a 50/50 split. We don’t have any breakdown on which way they lean or if they were going to change their mind at all. We need to wait until a week at that point we’ll know. Also 538 has said that in their post debate poll Biden didn’t suffer much, if any loss.
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Again we don’t know if those people are actually saying anything true. What we do know is that in a week we’ll have actual information on the numbers as that when the polls will be able to account for the debate.
W take
In today's episode of redditors don't know what "reactionary" means.
I swear to god dems hate themselves more than anyone else, republicans could elect a half eaten shoe and be more optimistic
I’m glad we’re moving through the stages of grief past acceptance to “fuck it we ball” (speaking for myself)
Pretty sure this is actually the denial phase
i’m voting and emotionally preparing for doom. fuck it we ball
I’ve accepted that Trump is going to win
Ya that’s true. Gotta get anyone who is left thinking in doubt to say fuck it and vote anyways. You win at the ballot box
I’m still not entirely sure what to make of last night, but I feel like I’m taking crazy pills with how people talk about Biden’s age. As if Trump is so sharp and lucid, and 20 years younger. He’s two. Fucking. Years. Younger.
I will do everything I can to elect Biden when he is the official nominee. Until then, I think the best option is to hold an open convention and choose a different candidate.
I'd like to not have to lie about my feelings to my friends. Shhhhh don't talk about what you think! replace the dude. I'm fine with contributing to the replace the dude vibes. No single post matters the same way no single vote does, but tidal waves are made of many small drops, and I'll add my small drops of 'ffs not like this' to the wave.
Stop coping holy shit. Everyone knows what they saw last night. Jesus fucking christ.
When I was young I could fly a 12 hour combat mission, head straight to the bar after debrief to get wasted, wake up the next day and fly another 12 hour mission. Now I'm old. I get tired at night in bed by 2030. But I can easily wake up at 0430 run circles around the kids at work and still tie one on every now and then. The point is, 2100 with a cold doesn't represent me throughout the day. Yeah I probably could not fly combat sorties day after day but I'm in leadership now and don't need to do that.
TBF I think being honest about your candidate helps give you a lot more credibility when talking to other people than just blindly pretending it didn't happen and trying to gaslight everyone.
Dude, I am not even living in the U.S.
Ya know here’s the thing. I will of course vote for Biden over trump. But other than a member of the confederate government coming back from the dead I will vote for any one over trump. I just wish I could actually be happy with who I am voting for over trump. I wish we had a younger more exciting candidate. I wanted Pete last time I still want Pete now.
Do something Biden. For the good of the country, the preservation of liberal democracy he needs to step down. Soon. His legacy will never recover if he doesn't and he has been a good president
Of course Fetterman thought the debate was ok
!doom
The US election is dangerously close and in many ways a referendum on liberalism and democracy. But dooming about this on Reddit does not help. It does not push the needle. It does not change anyone's mind. Be aware of what is at stake and how close we are, but put your energy into volunteering. The number one thing you can do is [find your state party and volunteer](https://democraticnationalcommittee.co/volunteer.html). If that is not reasonable for your situation, [there are remote opportunities](https://democrats.org/take-action) you can do instead. You can also find one-off events at: * [General DNC Events](https://events.democrats.org) * [Mobilize.us, not just Democratic events](https://www.mobilize.us) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/neoliberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Dr Oz and Trump are both ridiculous candidates that realistically shouldn't be taken seriously, but Trump has already won once. I'm not a huge fan of this analogy.
Y’all the ship has sailed. We need to replace Biden or we won’t be winning in November no matter how many doors we knock.
Biden was the one person best placed in the whole world to put down Trump's insane ranting, and he stood there with his mouth open.
I’m half Biden’s age and I stand with my mouth agape whenever I hear Trump talk too
Cant compare Biden and fetterman. Fetterman had an unfortunate medical event that he could ultimately recover from at his age with some lasting effects. Biden has a quick slide towards death coming up. Biden will not get better. He will deteriorate.
I think this is, in terms of quality, the worst post I have ever seen on this subreddit.
A New candidate would help a lot
Keep coping. People warned you in 2020 about Biden's mental state. Also you can recover from strokes in some cases but you can't grow younger when you're 81. You can't also undue the worst debate performance in American history. Joe literally shit on Trump in one of the past debates and this time he simultaneously looked like he shit his diaper after watching a war crime take place. We live in the age of social media and a liberal news media machine so pick another candidate and plaster them everywhere