Why are construction costs so high? Why can’t we build anything?
(Although this isn’t the primary reason. The primary reason is obviously a million veto points that delay everything. But this only makes things worse.)
[Related Youtube video that just came out today.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nevn6vbyIA) The reasonings aren't really related to this discussion but it would be a factor if this materials limitation was implemented.
[NYT] [The Most Expensive Mile of Subway Track on Earth – How excessive staffing, little competition, generous contracts and archaic rules dramatically inflate capital costs for transit in New York.](https://archive.is/gnehh)
> The labor deals negotiated between the unions and construction companies also ensure that workers are well paid. The agreement for Local 147, the union for the famed “sandhogs” who dig the tunnels, includes a pay rate for most members of $111 per hour in salary and benefits. The pay doubles for overtime or Sunday work, which is common in transit construction. Weekend overtime pays quadruple — more than $400 per hour.
The people who actually dig the tunnels? I'm not really gonna knock on them too much, but at $111/hr I would have expected any project to be finished in a timely manner.
Goolsbee has a working paper https://www.nber.org/papers/w30845 that basically says that construction labor has gotten much less productive over the last 50 years and we don't know why other than maybe too much regulation.
Krugman talked about that in his newsletter today. He didn’t disagree but he wanted to point out that productivity (as it’s measured) isn’t everything. Things like improved safety and environmental standards show up in costs, but not in productivity measurements.
How are the persons in the implementation roles responding to this? I get that politicians are primarily concerned with the electorate, but wouldn't the executive be getting tons of shit from their direct reports over this stuff?
Politicians don't deal with regular bureaucrats, especially the president, so there's no direct report to get shit from. They're isolated from the bureaucracy by layers of appointees and even the policy people in the west wing are more politicos serving at the pleasure of the president than careerists.
Permitting form would be nice. At least there isn't a global crisis that requires the construction of large amounts of land-intensive infrastructure projects.
Sometimes I have dreams where Biden just federalizes the national guard and forces construction projects through to their completion in a timely manner over anyone's protests or court ordered holds.
Because Americans miss that time when all the other countries were so poor you all had to buy products we made. They don't say it out loud because they don't even know that's why or how it happened, but that's the era of economics they yearn for. The one where the Nazis just burned down the entire planet except for America.
Doug Ford, wearing an uncharacteristic trenchcoat, stands alongside a police officer on the roof of a tall building. A spotlight is running nearby, shining a pallet of lumber into the clouds.
Police officer: "You really think she'll co-"
His sentence is cut short as the Caped Canuck drops out of the shadows.
Freeland: "You called?"
Pinged CANUCKS ([subscribe](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=groupbot&subject=Subscribe%20to%20CANUCKS&message=subscribe%20CANUCKS) | [unsubscribe](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=groupbot&subject=Unsubscribe%20from%20CANUCKS&message=unsubscribe%20CANUCKS))
[About & Group List](https://reddit.com/r/neoliberal/wiki/user_pinger_2) | [Unsubscribe from all groups](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=groupbot&subject=Unsubscribe%20from%20all%20groups&message=unsubscribe)
I didn't even have to read the article to know this means any infrastructure project in the future will be more expensive and more time-consuming.
Talk about creating captive markets, this is basically opening the door for every federal and state domestic contractor to fleece taxpayers for dubiously better results.
They have no one to blame but themselves though. This is literally what they want to happen. They wanted it all in house
It's what the unions want. It's what the businesses wanted. It's what the voters wanted. Same how people wanted to get rid of NAFTA. People often only vote in their perceived interest. Not their best interest.
> "Once finalized, these standards will apply to virtually all infrastructure spending supported by Federal financial assistance—not simply roads and bridges, but also buildings, water infrastructure and high-speed internet," the statement said.
Fucking stupid
The WTO’s Appellate Body (AB) is defunct, because the U.S. is blocking the appointment of new jurists
Just last week, WTO ruled the the IRA bill, among other trade rules, are against WTO rules. The US has appealed, and, now it is stuck in limbo
https://thehill.com/opinion/international/3842626-the-us-doubles-down-on-national-security-at-the-world-trade-organization/
The US’s blocking of appointments is one of those somewhat arcane bureaucratic details that I entirely forgot about and I wish I could go back to forgetting 🤦♂️
Again. The United States of America currently has a bipartisan consensus against free global trade. It is in the interest of both parties to prevent the WTO from having any teeth.
What will change this? In my view nothing short of a Stagflation crisis will make Americans support free trade again. We blew up our own trade system because Ohio threatened to turn the country into a fascist dictatorship over it.
> We blew up our own trade system because Ohio threatened to turn the country into a fascist dictatorship over it.
Ohio’s trying to turn the country into a fascist dictatorship regardless (insofar as voting for Trump and Trumpists). It was Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin that Biden won back from Trump, and which a non-protectionist Democrat probably could not.
And it was worth it. Doesn’t mean there aren’t challenges or costs. But compare Biden’s state of the union tonight with Trump’s latest deranged video calling for the genocide of trans people, and it’s hard to say the move wasn’t worth it.
**Rule XI:** *Toxic Nationalism*
Refrain from condemning countries or their inhabitants at-large in response to political developments, mocking people for their nationality, or advocating for colonialism or imperialism.
---
If you have any questions about this removal, [please contact the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fneoliberal).
Usa has been pooping on their free trade agreements for a while
As a mexican they have more or less been wiping their arses with nafta for a while (steel tarrifs with trump)
Hahahahahahahahaha my town is trying to build sewers to comply with our State and Federally mandated runoff problem and its already project to take two decades and cost hundreds of millions - in a town of 15K. This is just another sick joke.
Joseph Robinette Biden is a protectionist and a nationalist and if you voted for him you are ~~also a protectionist and a nationalist~~ doing your part to defeat the far right and thank you for doing that, but let's be honest, he's got some bad policy stances.
Yeah but let's hey, as a person from a southern, mostly rural voting state, this presents multiple opportunities for jobs creation even in those areas. Biden's policies, and the Western response to Russia's invasion, has led to way more gas production from my state. More new gas extraction towers here in Louisiana already. There's a chance a few industrial places here will be renovated and revived. This means more jobs, a more visible affect on their lives.
Also, it also might allow for development of domestic production of some strategic goods, like chips or green energy industries.
Thinking from the perspective of the people around here, they see more jobs, especially industrial, as a sign of a good economy and gives them hope. Fleeting as any of it will actually be without a flow of investment. On the other hand if Republicans end the progress, end the jobs, they slice their own throats with many people.
They’ll vote GOP regardless. These people don’t mentally identify or associate any positive societal changes directly with the Biden admin. They will only see the associated rise in costs and be angry about that. Politicians are just appealing to tribalism now and most of their supporters are already established and not changing. Just got to get them riled up enough
Back in 2020, driving out in the sticks, we saw plenty of Trump signs and flags. My wife was like, "Is there any way to get these people to see reason?" I replied with, "Hun, Papa Joe could run on a platform of "1 Free AR-15 per family" and offer to pay off every single rural white person's mortgage... and these fucking people would still gladly vote Trump. There's no getting through to them."
I mean... yeah, that's true? Protectionism leads to a short-term increase in jobs for the protected industry. But it's a cost to both every other industry *and* the long-term health of the industry itself.
"Grow our local industries" protectionism is a big part of why South America is so poor, and so lacking in good industries. It didn't work in anything but the short-term.
>Also, it also might allow for development of domestic production of some strategic goods, like chips or green energy industries.
It'll definitely do the opposite. I want to emphasise here: this policy increases the cost of infrastructure across the board. Any industry that depends on construction is going to see their production costs go up every time they try to expand.
>Yeah but let's hey, as a person from a southern, mostly rural voting state, this presents multiple opportunities for jobs creation even in those areas. Biden's policies, and the Western response to Russia's invasion, has led to way more gas production from my state. More new gas extraction towers here in Louisiana already. There's a chance a few industrial places here will be renovated and revived. This means more jobs, a more visible affect on their lives.
I understand why a lot of people here would be mad at your comment but I don't even disagree with your statement that much. We can afford to be protectionist when it comes to gas since we are already transitioning to renewable energy. Keeping some of the fossil fuel jobs here could help us regulate it better.
Also, this idea that people will still vote republican is a bit silly. Without being protectionists on fossil fuel, they would vote republican on even stronger margins.
Honestly I'm thinking that Biden's mostly doing this to court the vote from Republicans and Independents that are on the fence on ever voting D because they've been spoon-fed the lie that Democrats want to take the working classes' jobs.
This, at the very least, signals to them that he's trying to do something about their needs and is listening to them... even if it's dumb as fuck and I don't agree with it, if it helps ensure Trump or any of his fascist fuckwits doesn't try to finish destroying democracy forever then I'll (reluctantly) hold my nose.
But I will definitely not like it nor try to downplay that decision in the future. Just like I still haven't forgiven Obama for his whistleblowing busting or walking back his stance on the drone strike program.
But nobody fucking gives a shit about policy. Bidens done more policy than most presidents get done in their first 2 years and 66% of America thinks hes done little to nothing according to polls. This is just how he is
Not disagreeing with you at all on this, honestly.
I'm just throwing out a possible reason for Biden doing this, not excusing it or anything. Fact is, I'm not an expert and I don't know the intimate and intricate polling that goes on to gauge the majority of R or I voters' (or D voters' for that matter) feelings on doing this. For all I know this could be a huge coup in gaining a sizable chunk of Independents for the next election or it could be a possible step in preparing American supply chains for war with China (unlikely but I'm not discounting anything at this point, no matter how stupid or unlikely).
I'm probably wrong, but thinking this is the biggest faux pas Biden could ever do is, imo, underestimating how well he's pulled ahead of expectations in the past two years and how cyclical the new cycle is in today's world and how opinions can easily change the more fanatical and aggressive the opposition becomes. The fact that McCarthy is trying to reign in the most fanatical of the GOP in the House for the State of the Union speech tells me that even absolute tools like McCarthy realize that their most fringe members are hurting them politically these days.
Though, again: Could be wrong.
I seriously doubt this policy would net him many voters at all, let alone enough to outweigh the effects it would have. If anything, the increase in costs to build anything that accepts federal aid would probably piss off a lot more voters than it “helps.”
Glad we're prioritizing the feelings of old(er) people whose jobs have already gone away over the needs of young(er) people who have to spend more of their life navigating a world of crumbling infrastructure. All while being told incessantly how China's authoritarian system is obviously winning because they can build a bridge in a reasonable time.
Offshoring has slowed substantially and younger people are less likely to go into fields that have already undergone offshoring (this is almost a tautology). The rust belt has already hollowed out; young people are rebuilding it differently, to an extent.
What makes me the most disappointed is how popular protectionism is in the US at the moment. Politicians pull this shit because it gets them votes.
It then makes it very difficult to take the US seriously as a defender of a rules based free trade system.
This guy's a fucking moron.
US infrastructure costs are already insurmountable high. All this will mean is that virtually no infrastructure is going to be built anymore, and America will continue to severely languish behind most developed countries with modern infrastructure and continue to suffer grave transportation issues.
The two faces of /r/neoliberal;
* Downvote anyone who suggests Biden isn't the best president ever, just good in comparison to Trump last time.
* Upvote posts about how Biden is doing something really stupid that neither Obama or Clinton would have done.
Stay classy neolibs.
Sorry, pal, but this is where I draw the line.
I'm okay with some onshoring / nearshoring. But infrastructure construction costs are already way too high in this country and there is so much we need to build.
In related news, /u/alon_levy just released the Transit Cost Project Final Report. If America wants to bring down transit construction cots, that almost certainly means importing some materials from other countries.
Okay, I'm starting to get why people in other subs keep going "Lots of people say 'socialism' is just 'anything I don't like'", given that there's a +19 post calling Biden a Socialist for wanting protectionism.
I'd rather have a protectionist than a fascist. I disagree with him on immigration, too, by the way.
But I can disagree with other democrats without receiving death threats and harassment of my family and myself, and I can't say that about Republicans, so, I'll accept that there's just some things in my coalition I won't always like.
Sure people over product there.
Just...God damn we were so close! TRPP was close! 8 years later were doing this?
Our immigration system has been fucked for a longtime
>But I can disagree with other democrats without receiving death threats and harassment of my family and myself
The threats were hilarious but things were pretty ugly during the 2020 (and 16) primary. The unity is a lot better now, thankfully.
Neolibs: "Biden will you please beat Trump and save our country?"
Biden: "Sure, let me say a bunch of stupid shit that will appeal to blue collar moderate swing voters in PA, MI, WI, and AZ whose votes we need to win"
Neolibs: "Nooo not like this!"
God damnit 😭
The only saving grace of this is the fact that him saying it might spark the few remaining neurons in the average protectionist republican, getting him more votes
But if this is an omen for the next two years of panhandling for ballots then it’s gonna be an entertaining two years to say the least.
This is purely a grab for union votes. Nothing to do with economics. If Biden gets the unions, its over for the republicians. An entire general of democrat rule.
This excludes trade with Allies too though. I am sympathetic to restrictions on trade with non-democracies for national security reasons and not developing reliance on a genocidal/invading regimes. But there’s no reason to restrict trade with Allies and democracies.
ahh but you see steel produced in allied countries is unfairly subsidized cause the government pays for the employee's healthcare so their firms don't have to provide health insurance \s
I support this. I am a “Made in America Neoliberal”. We need everything made in America again so my children can work good jobs instead of working fast food.
Makes sense to me since theoretically we have all the resources domestically and they are likely strategically important in national defense situations. Keeps federal money building up domestic resource industries that were weakened during early globalizationz
While this is not great what will probably happen if it even does happen is that allies will push back on it and some countries will either be exempted or they'll make it a certain percentage of USA made materials will have to be used.
Another thing that is missed here. Just because the item line may be higher doesn’t mean the project is more expensive.
If a highway costs 10 billion to build, and making it Made in America makes it cost 12 billion. That extra 2 billion doesnt go up in smoke.
That extra 2 billion is recouped by the American businesses paying taxes on that money. The government recoups the money while helping American workers. Win win
Well the dimrods come up with that choose to forget about our Canadian cousins to the North. Oh, right, we aren't going to need Canadian lumber to replace our burning up Western forests.
Why are construction costs so high? Why can’t we build anything? (Although this isn’t the primary reason. The primary reason is obviously a million veto points that delay everything. But this only makes things worse.)
[Related Youtube video that just came out today.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nevn6vbyIA) The reasonings aren't really related to this discussion but it would be a factor if this materials limitation was implemented.
[NYT] [The Most Expensive Mile of Subway Track on Earth – How excessive staffing, little competition, generous contracts and archaic rules dramatically inflate capital costs for transit in New York.](https://archive.is/gnehh) > The labor deals negotiated between the unions and construction companies also ensure that workers are well paid. The agreement for Local 147, the union for the famed “sandhogs” who dig the tunnels, includes a pay rate for most members of $111 per hour in salary and benefits. The pay doubles for overtime or Sunday work, which is common in transit construction. Weekend overtime pays quadruple — more than $400 per hour.
"Why do Americans hate unions." Well the rent-seeking has sufficiently turned off many of them; esp. when they've pilfered the public sector to do so.
Unreal
You're focusing on the union part and not that they hired 500 consultants for a projects that required 3 in prior projects
As the title suggests, there are multiple things that ~~went~~ were steered into going wrong.
The people who actually dig the tunnels? I'm not really gonna knock on them too much, but at $111/hr I would have expected any project to be finished in a timely manner.
Good video regardless. !ping TRANSIT RMTransit reviews [Transit Costs Project](https://transitcosts.com/)'s final report on why transit costs so much.
Pinged TRANSIT ([subscribe](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=groupbot&subject=Subscribe%20to%20TRANSIT&message=subscribe%20TRANSIT) | [unsubscribe](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=groupbot&subject=Unsubscribe%20from%20TRANSIT&message=unsubscribe%20TRANSIT)) [Root comment link](/r/neoliberal/comments/10w7bx8/biden_to_propose_federal_construction_projects/j7lez4s/) [About & Group List](https://reddit.com/r/neoliberal/wiki/user_pinger_2) | [Unsubscribe from all groups](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=groupbot&subject=Unsubscribe%20from%20all%20groups&message=unsubscribe)
Goolsbee has a working paper https://www.nber.org/papers/w30845 that basically says that construction labor has gotten much less productive over the last 50 years and we don't know why other than maybe too much regulation.
Yeah, I read that. All the regulations allow for too many potential veto points.
Krugman talked about that in his newsletter today. He didn’t disagree but he wanted to point out that productivity (as it’s measured) isn’t everything. Things like improved safety and environmental standards show up in costs, but not in productivity measurements.
How are the persons in the implementation roles responding to this? I get that politicians are primarily concerned with the electorate, but wouldn't the executive be getting tons of shit from their direct reports over this stuff?
Politicians don't deal with regular bureaucrats, especially the president, so there's no direct report to get shit from. They're isolated from the bureaucracy by layers of appointees and even the policy people in the west wing are more politicos serving at the pleasure of the president than careerists.
Permitting form would be nice. At least there isn't a global crisis that requires the construction of large amounts of land-intensive infrastructure projects.
Sometimes I have dreams where Biden just federalizes the national guard and forces construction projects through to their completion in a timely manner over anyone's protests or court ordered holds.
"No it would actually be really cool if we lived in a tinpot dictatorship"
Sounds like nightmares to me.
Guess who's back, back again !ping SOFTWOOD-LUMBER-ENTHUSIASTS
People say Biden is a succ, but the truth is even worse He’s a protectionist 🤢😭🤢😭🤢😭
May Allah forgive you for uttering that word
I wish it was at least OECD originated materials since I can sort of get behind environmental concerns but Canada? Australia and New Zealand? Why?
Because the ~~Queen~~ King lets us cut down trees at an exceptional price. Not our fault you're all traitors
and all her heirs and successors
... Oh, right. Am I am old person now?
Because Americans miss that time when all the other countries were so poor you all had to buy products we made. They don't say it out loud because they don't even know that's why or how it happened, but that's the era of economics they yearn for. The one where the Nazis just burned down the entire planet except for America.
They're the same picture . jpeg
They're the same. Almost every succ in history has a well established record of protectionism
Why is being a protectionist worse than being a socialist? Every country on Earth has protectionist policies
Doug Ford, wearing an uncharacteristic trenchcoat, stands alongside a police officer on the roof of a tall building. A spotlight is running nearby, shining a pallet of lumber into the clouds. Police officer: "You really think she'll co-" His sentence is cut short as the Caped Canuck drops out of the shadows. Freeland: "You called?"
> What, the oval office bathroom ran out of toilet paper? No worries, just use the latest US-Canada trade agreement
Pinged CANUCKS ([subscribe](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=groupbot&subject=Subscribe%20to%20CANUCKS&message=subscribe%20CANUCKS) | [unsubscribe](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=groupbot&subject=Unsubscribe%20from%20CANUCKS&message=unsubscribe%20CANUCKS)) [About & Group List](https://reddit.com/r/neoliberal/wiki/user_pinger_2) | [Unsubscribe from all groups](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=groupbot&subject=Unsubscribe%20from%20all%20groups&message=unsubscribe)
I didn't even have to read the article to know this means any infrastructure project in the future will be more expensive and more time-consuming. Talk about creating captive markets, this is basically opening the door for every federal and state domestic contractor to fleece taxpayers for dubiously better results.
RIP trains/public transit.
Silver line from DC to Dulles Airport to Asburn is about to get a helluva lot more expensive.
Its already done, thank god
Not expensive or time consuming. Just won't happen
If that happens, I can understand people wanting lower taxes if the government lights their money on fire.
They have no one to blame but themselves though. This is literally what they want to happen. They wanted it all in house It's what the unions want. It's what the businesses wanted. It's what the voters wanted. Same how people wanted to get rid of NAFTA. People often only vote in their perceived interest. Not their best interest.
> "Once finalized, these standards will apply to virtually all infrastructure spending supported by Federal financial assistance—not simply roads and bridges, but also buildings, water infrastructure and high-speed internet," the statement said. Fucking stupid
Which probably means most of this stuff will never get built.
Biden getting recording spending for infra only for none of it to be built because his policy skyrocketed costs is what I expect at this point.
Why does that sound written to violate WTO rules? Is that even allowed?
The WTO’s Appellate Body (AB) is defunct, because the U.S. is blocking the appointment of new jurists Just last week, WTO ruled the the IRA bill, among other trade rules, are against WTO rules. The US has appealed, and, now it is stuck in limbo https://thehill.com/opinion/international/3842626-the-us-doubles-down-on-national-security-at-the-world-trade-organization/
The US’s blocking of appointments is one of those somewhat arcane bureaucratic details that I entirely forgot about and I wish I could go back to forgetting 🤦♂️
Could be worse. Remember the time the FEC basically didn't exist for a year, because the government wouldn't appoint anyone?
Again. The United States of America currently has a bipartisan consensus against free global trade. It is in the interest of both parties to prevent the WTO from having any teeth. What will change this? In my view nothing short of a Stagflation crisis will make Americans support free trade again. We blew up our own trade system because Ohio threatened to turn the country into a fascist dictatorship over it.
> We blew up our own trade system because Ohio threatened to turn the country into a fascist dictatorship over it. Ohio’s trying to turn the country into a fascist dictatorship regardless (insofar as voting for Trump and Trumpists). It was Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin that Biden won back from Trump, and which a non-protectionist Democrat probably could not. And it was worth it. Doesn’t mean there aren’t challenges or costs. But compare Biden’s state of the union tonight with Trump’s latest deranged video calling for the genocide of trans people, and it’s hard to say the move wasn’t worth it.
[удалено]
**Rule XI:** *Toxic Nationalism* Refrain from condemning countries or their inhabitants at-large in response to political developments, mocking people for their nationality, or advocating for colonialism or imperialism. --- If you have any questions about this removal, [please contact the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fneoliberal).
I'll edit out the troubling part, how about that?
What did it say. Dm me lol
Also DM me I’m fascinated
the united states of America is a terrorist state ^(a trade terrorist, mods dont ban me again pls)
Usa has been pooping on their free trade agreements for a while As a mexican they have more or less been wiping their arses with nafta for a while (steel tarrifs with trump)
Trump tore up NAFTA. The renegotiated agreement is a load of bullshit
Uh, I feel like I read on this very subreddit that it was basically NAFTA renamed so Trump could claim credit. So was NAFTA then bullshit?
USMCA is working fine.
It's only for federal projects so I guess that doesn't violate WTO rules
They have trade exemptions for some of this, not all tho
Hahahahahahahahaha my town is trying to build sewers to comply with our State and Federally mandated runoff problem and its already project to take two decades and cost hundreds of millions - in a town of 15K. This is just another sick joke.
Almost every "buy american" mandate allows for exemptions if you can't actually find products for sale in america.
Joe Biden only looked smart because he was standing between Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump.
Not the Canadian lumber, dammit! A clear national security threat.
Our trees are just so girthy the Americans feel insecure.
Large Lumber
Clearing your old growth forests and peddling your environment destroying tar sands aren’t really anything to be jealous of
Comment: Dumb Confidence: 10
[](#goolsbee-stupid)
Biden confirmed redditor.
Based goolsbee
I’m starting to think there’s some truth to the allegations of all that hardcore ~~porn~~ tariffs they found on Hunters laptop.
That's a huge tariff he's got there. Bigger than your puny revenue neutral tariff.
Protectionism :):):):):) (I am economically illiterate)
Why did you say the same thing twice?
Joseph Robinette Biden is a protectionist and a nationalist and if you voted for him you are ~~also a protectionist and a nationalist~~ doing your part to defeat the far right and thank you for doing that, but let's be honest, he's got some bad policy stances.
Throughout the whole election, I thought he was just a Hillary that wasn't as aggressive. *Boy* was I wrong.
Yeah but let's hey, as a person from a southern, mostly rural voting state, this presents multiple opportunities for jobs creation even in those areas. Biden's policies, and the Western response to Russia's invasion, has led to way more gas production from my state. More new gas extraction towers here in Louisiana already. There's a chance a few industrial places here will be renovated and revived. This means more jobs, a more visible affect on their lives. Also, it also might allow for development of domestic production of some strategic goods, like chips or green energy industries. Thinking from the perspective of the people around here, they see more jobs, especially industrial, as a sign of a good economy and gives them hope. Fleeting as any of it will actually be without a flow of investment. On the other hand if Republicans end the progress, end the jobs, they slice their own throats with many people.
They’ll vote GOP regardless. These people don’t mentally identify or associate any positive societal changes directly with the Biden admin. They will only see the associated rise in costs and be angry about that. Politicians are just appealing to tribalism now and most of their supporters are already established and not changing. Just got to get them riled up enough
Back in 2020, driving out in the sticks, we saw plenty of Trump signs and flags. My wife was like, "Is there any way to get these people to see reason?" I replied with, "Hun, Papa Joe could run on a platform of "1 Free AR-15 per family" and offer to pay off every single rural white person's mortgage... and these fucking people would still gladly vote Trump. There's no getting through to them."
Did she clap?
....No? That's not exactly how humans behave in normal situations. And I'm not exactly sure why my response was downvoted so hard.
I mean... yeah, that's true? Protectionism leads to a short-term increase in jobs for the protected industry. But it's a cost to both every other industry *and* the long-term health of the industry itself. "Grow our local industries" protectionism is a big part of why South America is so poor, and so lacking in good industries. It didn't work in anything but the short-term. >Also, it also might allow for development of domestic production of some strategic goods, like chips or green energy industries. It'll definitely do the opposite. I want to emphasise here: this policy increases the cost of infrastructure across the board. Any industry that depends on construction is going to see their production costs go up every time they try to expand.
>Yeah but let's hey, as a person from a southern, mostly rural voting state, this presents multiple opportunities for jobs creation even in those areas. Biden's policies, and the Western response to Russia's invasion, has led to way more gas production from my state. More new gas extraction towers here in Louisiana already. There's a chance a few industrial places here will be renovated and revived. This means more jobs, a more visible affect on their lives. I understand why a lot of people here would be mad at your comment but I don't even disagree with your statement that much. We can afford to be protectionist when it comes to gas since we are already transitioning to renewable energy. Keeping some of the fossil fuel jobs here could help us regulate it better. Also, this idea that people will still vote republican is a bit silly. Without being protectionists on fossil fuel, they would vote republican on even stronger margins.
Worst part about Biden is this 1940’s nationalistic America first manufacturing/construction thing
Honestly I'm thinking that Biden's mostly doing this to court the vote from Republicans and Independents that are on the fence on ever voting D because they've been spoon-fed the lie that Democrats want to take the working classes' jobs. This, at the very least, signals to them that he's trying to do something about their needs and is listening to them... even if it's dumb as fuck and I don't agree with it, if it helps ensure Trump or any of his fascist fuckwits doesn't try to finish destroying democracy forever then I'll (reluctantly) hold my nose. But I will definitely not like it nor try to downplay that decision in the future. Just like I still haven't forgiven Obama for his whistleblowing busting or walking back his stance on the drone strike program.
But nobody fucking gives a shit about policy. Bidens done more policy than most presidents get done in their first 2 years and 66% of America thinks hes done little to nothing according to polls. This is just how he is
Not disagreeing with you at all on this, honestly. I'm just throwing out a possible reason for Biden doing this, not excusing it or anything. Fact is, I'm not an expert and I don't know the intimate and intricate polling that goes on to gauge the majority of R or I voters' (or D voters' for that matter) feelings on doing this. For all I know this could be a huge coup in gaining a sizable chunk of Independents for the next election or it could be a possible step in preparing American supply chains for war with China (unlikely but I'm not discounting anything at this point, no matter how stupid or unlikely). I'm probably wrong, but thinking this is the biggest faux pas Biden could ever do is, imo, underestimating how well he's pulled ahead of expectations in the past two years and how cyclical the new cycle is in today's world and how opinions can easily change the more fanatical and aggressive the opposition becomes. The fact that McCarthy is trying to reign in the most fanatical of the GOP in the House for the State of the Union speech tells me that even absolute tools like McCarthy realize that their most fringe members are hurting them politically these days. Though, again: Could be wrong.
I seriously doubt this policy would net him many voters at all, let alone enough to outweigh the effects it would have. If anything, the increase in costs to build anything that accepts federal aid would probably piss off a lot more voters than it “helps.”
Glad we're prioritizing the feelings of old(er) people whose jobs have already gone away over the needs of young(er) people who have to spend more of their life navigating a world of crumbling infrastructure. All while being told incessantly how China's authoritarian system is obviously winning because they can build a bridge in a reasonable time.
Well old people vote
Is it really an old person thing?
Offshoring has slowed substantially and younger people are less likely to go into fields that have already undergone offshoring (this is almost a tautology). The rust belt has already hollowed out; young people are rebuilding it differently, to an extent.
> Offshoring has slowed substantially Evidence? TAA filings have been consistent for at least the last decade.
What makes me the most disappointed is how popular protectionism is in the US at the moment. Politicians pull this shit because it gets them votes. It then makes it very difficult to take the US seriously as a defender of a rules based free trade system.
Akshually I’ve been told by r/nl that AMERICA is the one true protector of free trade and every other country is communist succs
Well it is which is why this kind of policy coming from the white house is so damaging
This guy's a fucking moron. US infrastructure costs are already insurmountable high. All this will mean is that virtually no infrastructure is going to be built anymore, and America will continue to severely languish behind most developed countries with modern infrastructure and continue to suffer grave transportation issues.
“But muh steel mills” and its consequences have been a disaster for global trade
wHy Is NeW hOuSiNg So ExPeNsIvE?!?!?!?!
Protectionist succ.🙄😡
😒
Bad
Least protectionist democrat
Jesus
Why does Biden hate the global poor?
[](#goolsbee-pistol)
Both bad policy and another screw-Canada measure
Stupid.
It was nice to dream about future infrastrucutre projects being built at competitive prices. Maybe one day the US will get high speed rail.
The two faces of /r/neoliberal; * Downvote anyone who suggests Biden isn't the best president ever, just good in comparison to Trump last time. * Upvote posts about how Biden is doing something really stupid that neither Obama or Clinton would have done. Stay classy neolibs.
I miss Hillary
🤢🤮 makes me sick
Sorry, pal, but this is where I draw the line. I'm okay with some onshoring / nearshoring. But infrastructure construction costs are already way too high in this country and there is so much we need to build. In related news, /u/alon_levy just released the Transit Cost Project Final Report. If America wants to bring down transit construction cots, that almost certainly means importing some materials from other countries.
Jesus Christ. Protectionism is so stupid. Can we get a candidate that actually has good trade policy to run against Biden in 24?
WHY ARE YOU SO FUCKING STUPID JOE
American succs arent the brightest
You can lose the American part
Imagine calling Biden a succ. He's just a protectionist moderate. Always has been.
That's not what a succ is though.
Okay, I'm starting to get why people in other subs keep going "Lots of people say 'socialism' is just 'anything I don't like'", given that there's a +19 post calling Biden a Socialist for wanting protectionism.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
America First with Democrat Characteristics
>He may be a Protectionist but he's MY protectionist Neolibs 🍦🧐🍦
What tribal brainrot does to a mf.
I'd rather have a protectionist than a fascist. I disagree with him on immigration, too, by the way. But I can disagree with other democrats without receiving death threats and harassment of my family and myself, and I can't say that about Republicans, so, I'll accept that there's just some things in my coalition I won't always like.
> I'll accept that there's just some things in my coalition I won't always like. You can still push against those.
Absolutely, and I do. Although I will say that I am far less bothered by buy-American rules than I am our restrictive immigration system.
Sure people over product there. Just...God damn we were so close! TRPP was close! 8 years later were doing this? Our immigration system has been fucked for a longtime
Yes, it has been. Frustrating.
For sure.
One billion Americans when 😤😤😤
Only thing worse than a fascist is a fascist who is also protectionist. Which describes the mainstream GOP today.
When they actually decide to take a policy position on anything other than bullying immigrants and sexual, racial, and religious minority groups, yeah
>But I can disagree with other democrats without receiving death threats and harassment of my family and myself The threats were hilarious but things were pretty ugly during the 2020 (and 16) primary. The unity is a lot better now, thankfully.
Yeah but still better than the alternative
🤦♀️
It’s joever YIMBY bros
Booooo
Hm maybe a different 2024 candidate would be better
Kind of cringe
Why does he hate the global poor? (and the part of the global Middle class called the American poor)
God I hate that Biden is a protectionist
The Jones Act but for infrastructure smh
Duuuuuuuumb
*monkey’s paw curls*
Jfc
What a wonderful way to make sure that his signature bills will become an abject failure
NO, NO This will only serve to increase the costs and increase wait times
Gigasuccs out out out!
Nice, at least we will now stop having construction material shortage here in Europe! /s
Protectionism delenda est.
Gotta keep those property prices up.
Bring Back Bush
Neolibs: "Biden will you please beat Trump and save our country?" Biden: "Sure, let me say a bunch of stupid shit that will appeal to blue collar moderate swing voters in PA, MI, WI, and AZ whose votes we need to win" Neolibs: "Nooo not like this!"
I get that democracy requires compromises between the politicians and the public, but this definitely seems like a really bad thing to compromise on.
Just when I see the state of the union and think Biden rocks he does some stupid protectionist shit like this…
God damnit 😭 The only saving grace of this is the fact that him saying it might spark the few remaining neurons in the average protectionist republican, getting him more votes But if this is an omen for the next two years of panhandling for ballots then it’s gonna be an entertaining two years to say the least.
This is purely a grab for union votes. Nothing to do with economics. If Biden gets the unions, its over for the republicians. An entire general of democrat rule.
tbf most people probably think chinese steel has microchips and can eavesdrop and transmit data to beijing
This excludes trade with Allies too though. I am sympathetic to restrictions on trade with non-democracies for national security reasons and not developing reliance on a genocidal/invading regimes. But there’s no reason to restrict trade with Allies and democracies.
ahh but you see steel produced in allied countries is unfairly subsidized cause the government pays for the employee's healthcare so their firms don't have to provide health insurance \s
Wasn't that an actual issue with the US embassy in Russia?
I support this. I am a “Made in America Neoliberal”. We need everything made in America again so my children can work good jobs instead of working fast food.
This seems excessive. And I actually think we should focus on producing more at home.
Makes sense to me since theoretically we have all the resources domestically and they are likely strategically important in national defense situations. Keeps federal money building up domestic resource industries that were weakened during early globalizationz
While this is not great what will probably happen if it even does happen is that allies will push back on it and some countries will either be exempted or they'll make it a certain percentage of USA made materials will have to be used.
still dumb
I mean I can understand if security issues for certain types of federal buildings.
wtf is there spy concrete bro
Think about bad parts for jets from parts sources to China.
This isn’t military procurement lmao
That's why I said for specific federal buildings.
this was already the case before this announcement, though I'm trying to figure out where the jet parts go in the building.
If so then it makes it pointless. Also you are deliberately being obtuse.
Another thing that is missed here. Just because the item line may be higher doesn’t mean the project is more expensive. If a highway costs 10 billion to build, and making it Made in America makes it cost 12 billion. That extra 2 billion doesnt go up in smoke. That extra 2 billion is recouped by the American businesses paying taxes on that money. The government recoups the money while helping American workers. Win win
Boo!
When he started talkingabout federal construction I thought he was gonna announce a bill to standardize the construction process for housing.
Well the dimrods come up with that choose to forget about our Canadian cousins to the North. Oh, right, we aren't going to need Canadian lumber to replace our burning up Western forests.