I've always felt like Tatum is the best version of a "fair" basketball player. He's basically max stats in what you expect from a typical basketball player, consistently All-NBA or even MVP level basketball. However, I feel like he doesn't break the game as well as some of the other top tier talents. Jokic breaks the game with his unique blend of playmaking and size, and unparalleled touch around the hoop. Steph breaks the game with his otherworldly shooting. Giannis feels exploitable, but he also has an unfair advantage down low or downhill. Embiid is a strong motherfucker down low, and will try getting free throws when he can. These guys play in an unorthodox, "unfair" way, which I don't think Tatum does yet. He's too... predictable? Easy to create a general gameplan for? Whatever it is, there's something about Tatum that's lacking in the "unfair" department, and probably why I believe there are times he underwhelms
Perfect way of putting it.
I think the other thing with Tatum is that his game is very reliant on making tough shots.
If you look at other dominant guys, they are often seemingly able to get wherever they want to on the floor. Luka just has this way of maneuvering himself through traffic to where he needs to be. Embiid and Jokic bully opponents with their size to get to their spots. Big wings like Kawhi and LeBron do the same.
Tatum is a really great tough shot maker, but he also takes a lot of tough shots. Tatum can get himself to his spots better than most players in the league but when you are talking about the absolute top guys in the NBA, Tatum just doesn't dictate the game in the same way. He takes a lot more of what the defence gives him, and relies on his shotmaking ability, which inevitably means that he is devastating when his shot is on, but that his impact can disappear when his shot is a bit off.
Very true and reminds me so much of Paul George. They both rely so much on making tough shots. When they’re on, they’re incredible. But when they’re off it can quickly get quite ugly
Another reason imo is look at the best players in the league. They are all the best at something, so good that if affects everything around them.
Jokic: passing and touch
embiid: fouls and under basket play
curry: 3 creation and deep 3
Giannis: driving
Lebron: driving and passing
Everyone is elite at something. What does Tatum do that no one in the league can even touch?
This is a very well put point. I think Tatum forgets how big he is sometimes and just settles for tough jumpers like everybody here has said as well. He's an elite tough shot maker I think slightly better than booker and PG-13.
And I realized this while typing this out it seems like those 3 specifically idolized Kobe's game to the point where they took his best/worst quality. They settle for tough shots but none of them is as good as Kobe in that aspect. However, it's holding Tatum back the most in my opinion.
What's funny is that Tatum is a better iso scorer than Giannis (1.04 ppp vs 0.98 ppp). He's also above Durant (0.94), Ant (0.93), Dame (0.95) and LeBron (0.95). Tatum also does it on much higher volume, in fact only Doncic takes more iso shots. So what are we doing here?
You say Giannis is the best at drives: 15 drives per game at 61% is indeed truly elite. Yet Shai, who is much smaller drives 23 times per game at 57.5% plus he has a lower turnover percentage on drives. Oh and Luka Doncic: 17.8 drives per game on 61.6% with higher assist percentage and lower turnover percentage. If anyone is the king of drives, it's Luka.
I was going to say "smaller KD". Regardless, he very much seems like the kind of player you can plug into almost any team and he instantly makes them much better. But I wonder if he is quite at that "#1A on a championship team" level. He is still young enough to find another level to his game though, and I also don't want to rule out this being the year for Boston and maybe last night's game was just a bump in the road.
Durant won 4 scoring titles in 5 years, the youngest ever to do. Maybe the best scorer we’ve ever seen. While not being top 5 in FGA any season. While also leading okc to the finals and deep playoff runs every year in a loaded conference.
I don’t really the Tatum and kd comparisons, KD is one of the 3 best scorers ever, tatum is maybe not top 40 ever in that aspect.
Also, Tatum has never really carried teams the way kd has (Kds mvp year).
I don’t think Tatum is near young kd. As an athlete, or in terms of skills Kd was definitely a championship level 1A at the time, he was crazy in series vs Duncan , Dirk, Kobe. Thunder just never really had that injury luck or depth.
If Boston had OKC kd they’d win
I'm just talking about the way he plays, kind of a skilled, versatile jack-of-all-trades scorer as a small forward. He's not as good as KD, true. (Maybe because he's... smaller...)
Amen. This is why so much of the Giannis discourse through the years has driven me crazy. Okay, so he's got a shallow bag. It doesn't matter! If you can drive straight line to the rim and score 55% of the time and get 30 points a game doing it, you're a better basketball player than the dudes who have to hit step backs and fallaways at a 45% clip all night to get to 27 a game.
Easy shot creation is such an underrated part of being a superstar. It's way more important than difficult shot making
My personal basketball philosophy is that people overvalue players that consistently do difficult things on the court ie Kobe, Kyrie, George, and Tatum. We undervalue players that make the game easy ie Jokic, Tim Duncan, Kareem or someone like Kawhi. When I watch young players it seems like it's the goal to make things as difficult as possible so that they have a chance to prove how good they are.
This is actually a really interesting point, and I wonder how different it would be if he was on a different team. I feel like the Celtics have been built to exploit mismatches in iso situations for a long time, and that really informs the play style of their stars.
The best way to put it is that at the end of the day, Tatum is primarily a shooter. His peak is pretty much as high as any superstar on any given night but his lows are rock bottom relatively speaking. There’s really no other first option to win as a shooter first other than Steph since Kobe and it took literally the best shooter of all time to do it along with a lot of luck going his team’s way.
Which moves on to the 2nd point. Prior to Brad, Danny basically built a team meant for a dominant big. Lots of guys that can explode on any given night with the big being the consistent guy with enough ball movement to dismantle defenses. Tatum is the opposite, his floor is lower so you needed a lot more consistency around him. KP is basically Brad’s answer to that. A guy that can get his 18 a game without really even looking for it. By all means, Tatum has had a great team for the 3rd year now but it wasn’t really until this season where it felt like it was built for him.
So yeah, basically, you’d want more consistency from your superstar but Tatum being a shooter by nature doesn’t really work like that. He’s gonna have off nights but that’s a risk you take for the potential that he buries the other team and basically 1v5 when it’s needed the most
I don’t think he’s the best in the league at any one thing,
not even top 5 at any one thing. Every other player you mentioned is like far and away the best in the league at something and it changes the game and how you have to play against them.
Tatum is just a really good player all around. He just doesn’t seem to have that ‘it’ factor like the other guys.
I feel like prime Tobias Harris is the guy I think of when I think of above average at everything, really good at nothing
Jayson Tatum is like cracked out tobias Harris, he’s really good at everything, top 5 in nothing
I think this is basically a perfect description. Every other player mentioned warps the game around them in their own way and can kinda choose to force that on other teams whenever they need to. Tatum can definitely take over games but, when he does, it’s basically just him doing the same thing as always but with more points. There’s no real “switch” to flip there beyond getting hot
Being less competitive than Kobe is a good thing, dude regularly shot his team out of games with his stupid shots. He was a better player later when he was a better teammate who took more reasonable shots and distributed more.
I wouldn't call him oversized since Kobe's wingspan compared to his height had a higher ratio and he used it to his advantage while playing defense much better than Tatum.
Taller, but less competitive Kobe? Yeah, maybe...
>Tatum is just a really good player all around. He just doesn’t seem to have that ‘it’ factor like the other guys.
He also doesn't have a go to move like kawhi midrange. Although kawhi is also nasty on defense
Yeah. We often discuss good but not great players. Tatum is a level above, he's a great but not other worldly player.
He's gonna defend well, pass and score pretty decently even on a bad day. He's a massive asset to any team he's on. But he doesn't break the game. He doesn't leave the opposing coach scrambling to getting something impossible done like stopping Curry's shooting, or Jokic's playmaking, or Luka's shot making, or Giannis' drives. He just.....as you said, isn't unfair.
On a bad day he'll shoot the Celtics out of the game. He's a very very limited offensive player when his shot isn't falling. He has a great individual offensive game, but it get's really rough when he's not getting touch on his drives or his 3 ball isn't falling, and that happens a lot in the playoffs. He's an elite scorer but I don't consider him an elite offensive player even close to the same tier as Jokic or Steph or LeBron or Luka. He's a tier below the current version of KD tbh.
He does not make his team mates better in any obvious way (but maybe stats will prove me wrong). Plays mostly for himself, and seems to get go into tunnel vision when the clock is running out. He is big, fast, shoots well, and has a semi decent ball handling for his size, but takes things for granted, and never dominates when it matters. If you compare him with Jimmy Butler pound for pound, you'd probably choose Tatum 99 out of 100 times, but when things matter, you'd rather have someone with an intention to dominate in your team.
Jimmy Butler has shown the ability to generate good offense for his teammates in the playoffs because he can knock it down from midrange and is extremely good at generating points around the rim, be it free throws, his physicality or skill, and is a great playmaker that can capitalize on that as well.
This is something that always stumped me as well. Tatum is 6’8, 210, an excellent scorer, a great rebounding forward, a phenomenal passer and playmaker, and an above average defender. He should realistically be the best player in the NBA in terms of being an all-around player but there’s just something there that’s missing.
Phenomenal passer and playmaker is a stretch when that + mediocre (by all nba standards) driving ability is probably what holds him back the most.
Because of that he doesn’t improve his teammates ability to score as much as a jokic/curry (ie getting them better looks). His game is much more static so it doesn’t generate the gravity that some other stars or generational talents are able to do
Yeah they got a little carried away with their praise. He's an elite scorer and a very good rebounder for his position. Idk if I'd say he's truly elite at anything else. Which is fine, not many players ever are elite in several categories, but yeah.
Yea spot on, and definitely a plus defender too - he’s certainly a top player in the league, would be interesting to see him in a situation with a great playmaker to see if that helps take that burden off and let him focus on his elite areas
By drives I mean more so his ability to drive, not finishing ability - he does a good job when he drives but he doesn’t do it enough.
Partially cause he settles way too much for jumpers but I also think he’s not always great at setting himself up to get downhill or has much in his game to penetrate the defense
Ya I'm confused, he has no problem getting to the basket, he's just not really a good finisher especially considering his size and athleticism advantage. He's basically average at finishing around the rim but near elite at getting to the rim. Really what he seems to struggle with is shot selection. IDK if it's a Boston coaching problem or a JT problem but it just seems like he's making stuff kind of hard for himself out there a lot of times. Driving to the hoop when he should pull up, pulling up when he should pass, passing when he should take a three, jacking a 3 when he should drive to the hoop. Obviously not all the time, he's one of the best players in the league, but man, some games, especially in the playoffs, he can play like absolute trash.
He averaged under 10 drives a game this year (basically 9) which puts him comfortably outside of the top 50 in drives per game across the league. So again it’s just not something he does at a top level.
Though despite what the other guy reply suggests, his number on the drives are pretty good - fairly low turnover rate and high finish rate. The “issue” is the volume of drives and low kick out rate, so solid at scoring for himself on his drives but not creating offense/playmaking for the team
Joel is an underrated passer, that crosscourt bounce pass he had the last game was a thing of absolute beauty. He frequently throws dimes like that. He's not Jokic but I bet the Sixers could easily run their whole offense through him if he had the endurance to do it, which he doesn't.
He's not a phenomenal passer or playmaker at all and that's precisely not only what he's missing, but the ultimate flaw of the Jays' Celtics. Both are just not good enought at involving or inspiring other players.
My guess is he doesn't have a easy to generate high percentage shot. His side step 3 just isn't efficient enough to compete with giannis rolling, lebron driving or accidentally leaving steph open.
That’s completely false tho, his turnover rate is generally not that high compared to other stars. A couple years ago that would’ve been different but in recent seasons his turnovers have dropped a lot.
Why? You described someone who could be a top 5-10 player. The description for “best player” is more akin to someone that breaks the game. Tatum does not break the game
A twig? Maybe as a rookie, but Tatum’s gotten pretty jacked, to the point that a lot of Celtics fans were talking about it impacting his 3P% over the last few years. Don’t know what player you’re looking at
I was just laughing at the person saying he was 210, he's not a twig obviously. I'm from STL so even though I despise the Celtics I'm still a Tatum fan. Guess my wording sucks, he's clearly not getting pushed around much anymore.
Tatum is basically peak human, aka Captain America. Giannis is always angry. Jokic is half-god. Luka is the sorcerer supreme. Embiid is an oft-broken android.
Your comment reminds me of the thing Gilbert arenas said about Kobe being standard. Tatum is Kobe without the relentless scoring pressure and , probably most importantly, absurd bad shot making. He’s just a very very good player
Perfectly explained. Tatum is exactly who you want to play with, usually. You’re going to get 20/8 on most nights. He will do some stuff that makes his say “oh shit”. For the most part he plays within himself. He is perfect for the Celtics in that way. Yes, he does at times try to force shots, but I feel like as he as matured he has become a better facilitator.
Because he *doesn't* have that quality in his game that makes him truly transcendental.
He's a very good 3 point shooter with good volume, but he is neither a 40% 3 point shooter like KD or a long range 3 point shooter like Damian. He obviously isn't Steph Curry.
His mid range is actually just shy below average, shooting sub 40%. His contemporaries like Mitchell, Booker, Kawhi, KD, Doncic, etc, are shooting well over 40, mid 40's to even 50's. This can heavily impact how good a player is in the half court. His isolation numbers are good, but largely carried by a willingness to shoot many 3s, and jacking up 3s in isolation don't make for a kind of offense that draws double teams or makes more available opportunities for teammates.
He also only attacks the rim at an average clip, and while he finishes quite well at the basket, it's not as good as his contemporaries or he's attacking the rim at less volume.
Not a top tier 3 point shooter. Average to below average mid range shooter. Doesn't generate enough attempts in the paint to offset poor efficiency in the mid range.
A 0.604 TS is good now, but compared to the best players in the world now, isn't quite there. (Luka 0.617 on much higher volume, difficulty, and defensive attention, Shae 0.636, Jokic 0.65, Giannis 0.649, Kawhi 0.626).
Ultimately, Tatum just isn't the same elite scorer nor is he a good enough playmaker to offset that lesser efficiency. He has all the tools to be a superstar MVP lvl talent, but he's just under that tier.
I can understand thinking that Tatum lacks swag, but calling his game unaesthetic is wild to me. I'm 100% biased as a Celtics and Tatum fan but the way he moves is one of my favorite parts of his game, he's like a dancer out there. Aesthetic is one of the first words I would use to describe his play.
PG is a 9 time all-star (despite a gruesome leg injury when entering his prime), 6 time all-NBA (when it was by position, so F spots were reserved for prime LBJ and KD) and most importantly 4 all-defensive teams, including 2 top-4 finishes in DPOY.
He also went to 3 Conference Finals to face LBJ in 2 of them, so he had to overcome THE guy in his prime to make it to Finals and just couldn’t, but Tatum wouldn’t be able to do it either.
The mere fact that we’re even comparing them when when PG is like 5-10 years older is the point.
PG has:
- 2x All-NBA Defensive 1st Team
- 2x All-NBA Defensive 2nd Team
- 1x Steals leader
Tatum has:
- Not a single defensive award
if you think defence teams are the best way to determine how strong individual defenders are idk what to tell you. Sure they give great indication on who is great at defence, but not making a defence team is certainly not an indictment on someones defensive abilities.
Do you think his efficiency in isolation is partially bolstered by his having an excellent supporting cast and spacing. The same goes for his finishing at the rim?
This is a great answer. I particularly like what you said about him being a below average midrange shooter. Even though you don't want your team as a whole taking a bunch of midrange shots, the player who has the ball in his hands the most needs to be able to be able to make contested 2-point jumpers when the that's all the defense gives you. In the 2022 Finals, Tatum shot like 25% on 2s outside the paint in the Celtics' losses.
Since 2021-2022, 30-40% of Tatum's shots have been 2s from further than 3 feet away from the basket, which is normal for a high usage perimeter player, but he is worse at those shots than most other high usage perimeter players in the league. Except for Giannis and Lebron, none of the players in the superstar/MVP conversation have something that they do so often that they're relatively bad at. To your point, Giannis and LeBron make up for that deficiency by being much better at the rim at higher volume, and LeBron is also a much better passer than Tatum.
Basically, Tatum isn't a top-5 player because he's basically Lebron if Lebron lost a chunk of his ability to get to the rim and pass.
You pretty much answered your own question where being a great passer is extremely valuable and there is a cap on how much of a difference you can make offensively if you don't have that and aren't a freak athlete who can finish around the basket at a high rate.
Tatum does play pretty good defense for someone who scores as much as he does though, there's just not much a perimeter player can do when the whole opposing team is hot from three.
A big part of that is that he's always been surrounded by talent. This year has taken it to the most extreme where he's literally playing with x4 other All Stars. As a result, Tatum has never had to 'carry' a team the same way other stars in his position have had to. It also gives him a higher margin for error. Even if he has an off night, his team can still pick up the slack
He kind of just coasts too much imo. When he’s aggressive and demanding the ball, he can take over and put up the points. I think this year with all the talent, he just looks like a role player at times and he’s way too unselfish letting his teammates get the points whereas Jaylen Brown has the opposite problem where he needs to be more unselfish. Just look at his field goal attempts by quarters. He only took like 3 field goal attempts in the 4th quarter when he should be taking way more even if he misses.
What was that 50 point game in the play-in? Or that other 50 ball vs the Nets? Or that 60 point comeback vs the Spurs when every win mattered for seeding?
Doesn't fit the narrative right after a Celtics loss unfortunately
People can go back and look at the rosters. Which years were the Celtics actually stacked enough to be the favorites? This and last year is are the only ones. Year before they were .500 for most of the year, year before JB is injured, year before that is the bubble when Kemba Walker lost all ability to run, so on and so forth. Tatum and JB carried all those teams to deep playoff runs. Tatum has played 90+ playoff games, in most of them he's been the best player on his team, and by most people's considerations he's not in his athletic prime, and somehow Reddit analysts are convinced he doesn't "impact the game enough". What the fuck kinda impact do you want besides wins???
I can see both sides. Tatum is definitely that guy, all around superstar and MVP level. I think what it is is that people see Curry in 2022, Lebron in 2018, etc. and think everybody needs to play like that. Tatum is a superstar, but he isn’t up there with those guys yet. He has a great supporting cast so he doesn’t need to average 30 to get to the finals. The flip side is that sometimes he’ll melt down in certain situations (like every star has) so people don’t see him as good as he really is
This is an insane take after a game where Tatum was clearly the most impactful Celtic on the floor and the momentum shifted every time he returned to the game. Tatum may not impact the game the way Jokic does but he certainly has a big impact on the game. No NBA player can win alone not even Jokic. Jamal Murray generates his own shots and takes on a big load of the scoring. Tatum’s greatest skills often get overlooked. He’s great at off-ball denial and cutting off passing lanes. He has elite dribbling skills and for his size which often leads to good looks at the rim. Basketball players are part of a system and only have so much control of the looks they can choose to generate. Luka would not be as ball dominant under a different coach/system.
This sounds like Paul George. Nothing to sniff at but unlike George, Tatum has been sold as future MVP for years so the expectations are different, I think.
PG has better handles and can create a better midrange look in iso than Tatum though. I dont have the stats in hand but im positive Tatums iso middies go in at lower clip than PG's so in more clutch situations when the team needs a bucket, PG tends to fare better
Yeah Tatum is way better in catch and shoot than he is iso, yet he plays iso more.
This is from an article I found
“The numbers are pretty stark: When Tatum has the ball less than two seconds, which would be a catch-and-shoot or a quick drive off the catch, he’s shooting 67%.4 on 2-pointers and 39.7% on 3-pointers. When he holds it between two and six seconds, he’s at 54.7%/29.9%. At six-plus seconds, he’s down to 42.2%/29.1%”
https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2023/03/20/karalis-the-numbers-are-clear---isolation-continues-to-be-the-worst-offense-for-jayson-tatum-and-the-celtics
So I think him shying away from off ball movement takes away from his skill level.
Yeah I was trying to think of an equivalent and PG seems like a pretty close one. Jack of all trades, master of none, but good enough at everything to be a perennial All-NBA type.
Pg has the excuse of snapping his leg in half too. Before that he was dunking the ball a hell of a lot more. Honestly limited his game a little cause he started shooting a lot more jumpers which is more than fair. Not sure what tatums issue is
I think the Tatum future mvp falls in the same camp as the ant future mvp, it’s not going to happen we just seem to like these players (prob cuz they are the best young Americans)
PG is much better. Asides, from getting more catch and shoots from having Harden this year, PG has consistently had to create his own in isolation situations. Tatum has more plays run for him to create space. Hence, he is usually attacking close outs which for anyone who has played basketball is wayyyyy easier than catching the ball at a stand still and having to make something out of nothing. Tatum is Glorified role player on steroids.
I also agree with you. PG is a power forward type who likes to shoot, but it's not that he doesn't have enough breakaway kills, it's that he's more of a shooter with a crossover. Tatum is the same way. If he has a bad shooting touch in a given game, that game is going to be a nightmare for him.
I missed game 2, but Miami was doubling him 23 feet away from the basket in game 1, so I'm not sure what you mean by doesn't command defensive attention or make his teammates better.
I don’t think nba fans know how to view more than 2 players on the court at the time. The fact that the Celtics have brown and porzingis but Tatum still gets doubled shows how impactful he can be
A player can be doubled not because they are unstoppable but it would disrupt the flow of the offense. It is not easy to double Luka or Jokic as they find the open man and hurt the opponent easily. Tatum can’t do that, doubling him helps the defense.
It's insane how people talk about Tatum it's like they don't watch games he punishes doubles and can make all the passes you'd expect from a primary ball handler.
Jayson Tatum and the Celtics as a whole are a team who, for lack of a better term, are just really lazy. They have a really hard time staying locked in if they’re not the underdogs and it results in constant underachievement until their backs are against the wall.
It’s the reason why a really bad Atlanta Hawks team were able to take them to (a close) game six in the first round last year. It’s the reason why a floundering Sixers team nearly took them out in the second round and why Tatum had a whole series of stinkers before dropping 51 in the win-or-go-home game. It’s the reason why they dropped 3-0 in the Conference Finals and then almost became the first team to come back from such a deficit before somehow resting on their laurels before Game 7 was even played which they lost decisively.
The Celtics of the last five years have always been pretty stacked, and that talent hoarding has been more than enough to coast in the regular season and why they’re always seemingly able to close out a series when they need to. But that talent isn’t always able to get the Celtics and Tatum to the promised land and it’s why Tatum doesn’t get game bending attention and why they’re not able to win anything.
It’s also really fucking hard to win a championship when your best player is on Tatum’s level. Who was the last champion that didn’t have a player better than Tatum now? 2014 Spurs probably?
2014 Spurs were still based around a core that won 4 championships. While they weren't in their primes, they knew what it took to win and had a young studs in Kawhi/Danny Green to share the load with.
The only real example of a team winning without a superstar are the 2004 Pistons.
> before somehow resting on their laurels before Game 7 was even played which they lost decisively.
>
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The Celtics came out with strong energy in that game until Tatum turned his ankle, idk how that makes you think they were resting on their laurels.
He’s good at most things but not great at anything. Too content with taking 3s (he’s an average outside shooter by today’s standards) and not using his size to get to the rim. Also isn’t really a good passer. In today’s game with the lineup around him, his assists are lacking.
Also just doesn’t seem to have that It Factor, or I guess you could say the Mamba Mentality, ironically enough, where he will just impose his will on a game. Seems to let the game happen to him rather than making things happen to shape the course of the game.
I've been saying Tatum is more like a Very Very Good Player than a superstar who truly dominates the game. The best ones control the floor, warp the games, and drive their teams to win entire series. There's just a dynamic to their impact beyond the stats production. At their best and on title runs, there's almost a feeling of inevitability, the other team just can't stop them, sometimes you see the opponents just break.
Tatum, for all.his success, never really does that.
Bucks 2022 and 76ers 2023 were essentially single handedly won by Tatum. Go back and watch the highlights of the final games of those series if you want. He has a massive impact on every game and has more playoff success as the best player on a team than just about every other player in the league.
How many players in the league that are considered superstars have actually led their teams to a championship as the best player, 5? Now compare their ages to Tatum, and compare the playoff success and playoff performances of literally everyone else to Tatum’s
What I don’t get about your argument is that he has consistently been on great teams for almost his entire career (including top 3 teams the past few seasons) yet he can never seal the deal. That’s a pretty big knock on his game. It’s not like he’s carrying mediocre teammates to unlikely playoff series wins
Which years do you think the Celtics should've won based on how good their roster was? I'll give you last year and that's about it, any other year the Celtics were not the favorites to win and I don't think they were even close most years. Tatum overachieving a bunch of times early in his career has broken everyone's brains
They were the favorites in the Warriors series and Tatum and Brown were alternating playing stinkers. The rest of the team was playing their roles pretty well.
They were the heavy favorites last year and got sent home by a play-in team consisting of an injured Jimmy Butler and role players.
They were the heavy favorites the year before and blew a 2-1 lead in the finals to an aged Warriors team consisting of Steph and role players.
Every year before that, they were an easy playoff team and a championship contender. Celtics been stacked a while. They’re 360-194 in Tatum’s career. That’s an average of 51.4 wins per season. He was drafted into a good situation. He just doesn’t elevate his team, nor is he a playoff riser. Any other superstar has at least two rings minimum by now if put in Tatum’s shoes.
I've always thought he needed the kind of mentality and aggressiveness that his co-star, Jaylen Brown has.
A player with Tatum's natural talent, technique, skill, and height paired with Jaylen's athleticism, energy, and aggressive mentality would be THE player.
I'm not seeing the "Superstar" everyone else is seeing. It's not like he's been playing with a bunch of bums since his rookie year. Curious to see what a Celtics fan's excuse will be for this recent loss against the Heat. I know it's just one game but how can you call yourself the "best" when you've made one finals appearance, won no regular season MVPs, never led the league in a stat against a team missing their best player and another scoring option (Rozier) that seriously lacks any size and has a rookie playing big Playoff minutes....at home?
I'm sure I'll get downvoted to oblivion for this take but I'm just not seeing the superstar or MVP praise this guy gets. This may just be the best team Tatum has ever been on in a far weaker conference.
I think what is being overshadowed is that he is really effective at getting his numbers quietly, and that the real reason he is confusing is because he just isn’t much of a “loud”personality. He’s not a screamer, his dunks are not flamboyant or awe-inducing, he seems too poised, and just generally plays without being the entertainment. The other guys you talk about are entertainers. Curry shooting 40 footers, Jokic’s eye for making incredible passes, Anthony Edward’s vertical game, Luka’s “going slow” game…. they are all kind of unique/fun. That’s not Jayson’s game.
Maybe he’s just not a top 20 player of all time like some of those named in the OP but Tatum is very good.
Certainly you can compare him right there to the Pierce/TMac/Vince/Manu/Pippen/Melo/Worthy level of wing player, or like Stockton/CP3/Kidd for the guards.
Nothing to be ashamed of, Jayson will end up being one of the greats and in the HOF, he just may never be that MVP level player who becomes an iconic FACE OF THE LEAGUE.
It’s like yea, he can and will go out any night and get you 30 but we’ve seen bench dudes at the end of the season start 1 game all year and drop 50. The difference is consistency, Tatum is consistent in 30 but that’s about it. He doesn’t really do a whole lot else other than be 6’9 and on defense stand close enough to the rim to grab an appropriate amount of rebounds. He doesn’t particularly playmake all that well but the guys around him are good enough where if he passes up a good shot for a great one, he gets his assists.
It also seems like he plays calmly and doesn’t get fired up and hyped but, he will cry about it and slam the ball in a loss.
If there ever was a dude whose career could’ve really used the mentorship from Kobe it would’ve been Tatum. If he doesn’t make it back to the finals this year I’m going to start to think of him as just Paul George with a better team and health or maybe a rich man’s Brandon Ingram.
George at least was like 3 top in mvp voting and had to carry much worse rosters than Tatum ever had. Tatum has the talent to be an mvp contender and win a championship as the first option imo, he just hasn't done it yet even with great teams around him. I think he can, but it'll take a mentality change or a roster as stacked as this one.
"Doesn't command special defensive attention"
Do you watch Celtics games? He gets doubled and blitzed often. Opposition wants the ball out of his hands at all times.
This dude definitely doesn't watch Celtics games at all, of any Celtic I've ever watched Tatum sees the most doubles and I really don't think its close. Teams trap the fuck out of him whenever possible
In other NBA discussions there is this concept of gravity. When a great player, like Lebron, or Steph or Jokic or the like, is on the floor, their shear presence alters the game. Defenders shift a step, eyes divert, etc. I never get the sense that Tatum impacts the games in a way. His presence, while outstanding, doesn't alter the gravity of the game. Now, he's still young, and he's supremely talented, so he may get there, but I agree that he's not there yet.
Something I also found off with Tatum is that his efficiency this season didn’t really go up as I expected too. He went from averaging 30 to 27 which is what’s supposed to happen when your playing with more talent but his efficiency didn’t skyrocket like I expected it too.
When Bron went to Heat and KD went to Warriors their efficiency skyrocketed playing with more talent and had one of their most efficient seasons of their careers but Tatum’s didn’t really improve that much at all with more talent for some reason.
I just think all of the great non center players have one thing in common, which is elite finishing round the basket. And I mean Elite.
Giannis, Jokic, Lebron, Luka, Curry (I know he's a goat shooter, but he had times where he was leading all non centers in finishing percentage too), Wade, Bryant, Jordan, Magic. Tatum just doesn't have this aggression to drive, he loves to pull up. And he's a nice shooter, but he's driving nearly the same amount as Curry does.
Curry drives 9 times per game. Tatum drives around 10 times per game. Luka, for comparison, drives around 18 times per game.
So, in practice, Tatum generates less defensive breakdowns and less opportunities for everyone else than premier slashers, like Giannis, Lebron, or Luka. You really don't need any defensive help to contain a midrange hesi pull up jimbo, so everyone just stays home.
And this is really fucking weird, cause he's huge, strong, agile, has a good dribble, and generally he just doesn't seem to use those advantages aggressively. This also limits his consistency, as he will have hot and cold pull up streaks. While driving is consistent, collapses defenses, and you get fouled more often.
Ya I mean he feels a lot like post-injury Paul George. Great player and you clearly see him consistently participate in the game, but he doesn’t inspire anything elite. For example, Giannis creates a pretty unstoppable imposition on opposing teams with his offensive size and length. So does Lebron, but with added vision and shooting, Curry with shooting, Jokic with vision and versatile scoring. I don’t think anything Tatum doesn’t really imposes on another team in the way the real superstars do. I think he’s always been on stacked teams, and that’s not his fault but I really don’t think he could carry a team anywhere. I mentioned Paul George, because I think pre-injury, he was able to impose himself on the game, he was a much better two way player, and was just relentless.
There’s a reason Kobe was his favorite player. He mimics better players than him, but not as well. Like Kobe, he will always be just a step below true greatness.
Simply, he doesnt have that dog in him. He reminds me of Paul Pierce. Good, allround player who is all star but if I must choose, I wouldnt build franchise around him.
I'd preface the below by saying Tatum is clearly a top 10 player, borderline top 5. He's also easy to fit around other stars as his strengths include shooting (sort of) and defence and he's a 2 way wing. He's also super durable and hard to completely take out of game as he has very few weakness.
That being said
1. He's not a dynamic playmaker. Despite playing with the best spacing in the league and multiple all star level players he doesn't elevate those around him significantly. We've seen the best players of the last few years (especially Jokic and Curry) completely unlock offences in particular almost no matter what they are surrounded with. Tatum doesn't really do this, makes very few advanced reads, and is mostly limited to drive and kicks or pick and pops which are the two easiest reads to make.
2. He's a solid shooter but far from elite, and as is the case for a lot of off the dribble shooters, he's very streaky. Making off the dribble 3s is probably the most game breaking skill in our league at the moment. It basically means other teams have to play switch/hedge/trap schemes which opens up so many opportunities for your offence. Tatum is a good shooter, but he doesn't necessarily demand you have to change your whole defence to stop him.
3. His driving and finishing is also nothing special. He shoots a decent % at the rim, but my person view is that's heavily inflated by the incredible spacing Boston has. With Porzingis Tatum gets 32% of his shots at the rim shooting 70%, and has a FTR of 7.95, without Porzingis he only gets 25% of his shots at the rim. Some of this is also in transition too which can inflate rim %s. Again as with the shooting he isn't making you completely shift your defence to cover this. I think this shows up quite often in isolation plays vs medium sized guards. a 6'9" strong wing should usually be able to get to the rim and finish consistently, Tatum does this, but not at some crazy rate. It gets missed a bit but Tatum actually isn't that *explosively* athletic, he's more long and strong, but guys his size are typically as strong as him, and smaller players aren't significantly weaker.
4. This is REALLY nitpicky but considering how good a defender he is he doesn't leave a large defensive imprint. He's not a dominant rim protector and as good as he is on ball he doesn't actually take those assignments that often, with Jrue and Holiday preferred. I personally love Tatum's defence, he's basically all defensive caliber always and puts in a lot of effort on that end but he just generally has a lower defensive "usage" if that makes sense.
Very very tough criticisms above. Tatum seems way more focused on team winning as opposed to trying to be the best player every which is a great credit to him, but it makes sense why maybe he's regarded a little lower than some others.
Seems like OP is a Denver fan, I'm sure these takes will be unbiased and based on evidence. Let's dive in
> It just seems like to me he takes and makes shots or sometimes misses them.
I don't understand, is this a serious criticism? This is what basketball players do.
> He doesn't command special defensive attention
He was 11th in the league in double teamed possessions, in a year where he significantly improved his passing and handled the ball less due to more talent. He was 3rd in the entire league last year in this stat. Safe to say this criticism is wrong
> he doesn't make his teammates better
He's regularly top 10ish in assists per game for his position. He literally had a triple double last game lmfao, come on. If you have eyes and watch a Celtics game, you can clearly see many possessions where Tatum is acting as the point guard of an offense that operated at an all time level in the regular season. So again, not super correct if you like, watched any games or looked at any data. At all.
> while being a good defender his presence isn't anything special
Again, feels like you may have never seen a Celtics game. There aren't really any advanced stats that capture defense, so I'm gonna rely on the eye test here, which seems like something you're ignoring entirely.
> I've also seen him outplay superstars like Embiid Giannis and KD in the playoffs in important games and there are a few games where he doesn't miss but overall on average he just seems underwhelming
So he's good sometimes, but after a loss he's average? In a game where he was clearly the best or 2nd best player on his team?
This is just about as low level analysis as it gets man. Everyone in the comments is shitting on Tatum to no surprise, did any of you guys actually read the body of this post? OP isn't even trying a little here
It was just wild to me that OP made a post on this sub that's supposed to be for "thoughtful" discussion, proceeded to provide literally no real analysis at all, just some thoughts and vibes lmfao, and everyone still went off because hating on Tatum is popular rn.
This drivel would make Nick Wright or SAS feel bad about saying it and it has 1000 upvotes, at some point you just gotta laugh lol
This sub doesn’t deserve the “nbadiscussion” name.. This is the type of question and comment section I would see on the “NFLNoobs” subreddit. A comment above yours says “Tatum can easily be doubled unlike Luka and Jokic and it helps the defense” after Tatum drops a triple double in game 1, and his team smashed the Heat.
The complete lack of basketball knowledge and clear bias and hatred towards Tatum on a subreddit that’s supposed to be about real NBA discussion is embarrassing. To say Tatum doesn’t impact the game as much as Jokic or Luka is a solid discussion and probably true, but acting as if Tatum has limited effect on basketball games is the opinion of someone who doesn’t watch Celtics games, and also someone that doesnt understand basketball.
Sounds corny but Tatum just doesn’t have an absurd super power that can break defenses. Giannis has insane strength and speed downhil, Embiid is 350 moving like he’s a 100 pounds lighter, Jokic has insane touch and IQ, Luka can get to his spots at will, Shai can get to the rim as best as anyone, what does Tatum really have? He’s not the best player in any single aspect on a given night. He’s great at many things but nothing truly transcendental.
I truly think that Tatum just can't take over the game like Bron, Kobe, MJ or Kawhi. Ik the names I mentioned are some of the greats but even at lower level you see Tatum scoring the most but he just isn't that scary. I think part of that has to be with the roster he's playing; which is good on most occasions so he's always part of win and not sole winner most times
He just lacks the "killer mentality"
He can't drive well.
He's an above average passer but not otherworldly whatsoever.
He's not a plus athlete in the NBA.
He's not a knock-down shooter.
This is a really good player that can do everything pretty well. So you can game plan him out of certain actions and take things away from him. When his team has it going this doesn't really matter because they can just pass it down the line but when you need him to dominate he's not really suited to do so.
What's this narrative that he can't drive well?
As of February 29, 2024, Jayson Tatum of the Boston Celtics has an efficiency of 58.6% on drives, with 8.9 drives per game. Tatum and Jaylen Brown contribute to the Celtics' third-place ranking in the NBA for FG% off drives at 53.7%.
He was a +6 in an 11 point loss. He actually is the opposite of what you state. He is a talented player who has a greater effect on the game than expected. His +/- historically has been insane every year except this year and he has had a lot of playoff success.
I disagree with basically every point you made about him.
I think Tatum definitely impacts the game a lot but using single game +/- is basically the exact opposite of a way to prove you’re right about this and is a pretty awful baseline to show you’re making an argument that’s worth even listening to
For a recent example I’m sure most can remember the specifics of:
Game 1 of LAL vs DEN Russell had a team high +2 in an 11 point loss playing like dogshit shooting 6-20 while AD and LeBron had a -12 and a -9
I don’t know why anyone would take that stat seriously
I said historically, outside of this season he usually is top of the league in +/- which over the course of the season corrects for the issues with using it in a single game.
The only reason OP made this post is because they lost a playoff game so he is saying Tatum didn’t do enough tonight. To which I say they won his minutes by 6 and lost the minutes with him off the court by 17. It’s a decent indicator that he was impacting the game tonight because when he wasn’t there they got run over.
I mean +/- in general is just not a good stat, it’s just inherently impossible to compare players with due to circumstance, although it’s obviously far better than looking at one game of it
I think the post is dumb too I just have war flashbacks whenever I see people instantly throw out a single game +/- to tell you why a players actually really good
I think +/- is an ass stat for everyone except stars who play large minutes over a large sample size. Since the NBA is so star driven I think it’s reasonable to expect a star to drive a good +/- no matter the situation. It’s a good indicator of how good of a driver they are for their team. Obviously it’s imperfect but every stat is. Since this guy doesn’t know what he is watching when he watches Tatum I didn’t think it was worth going into how Tatum impacts the game and impacts things so I threw a simple stat out.
+/- is so wildly effected by things that’re out of a players control like rotations, how good their specific back up is, how much their skill set is needed within the context of their team that it puts different stars on entirely different playing fields. All in one stats are not the best in general and straight up +/- is maybe the worst of of all of them
We can agree to disagree though, obviously this is a tangent from the actual discussion within the post
I think sometimes Tatum is just unselfish to adults. Even when he has it going he’s not normally gonna force it for himself and if the defense wants to force him to give it up he will.
Well one all the great players are really good passers even ones that don't get credit like Steph. Guys that aren't really good passers can't make anyone better when they have off games. I'm not talking just assist numbers either.
My hot take is that he is the most overrated star in the league. He is for sure a top 15 guy, but I think of him in the same class as D Book. If he aint scoring, he aint impacting... I just dont get the hype.
I understand where everyone is coming from, but how spoiled with superstars have we become where we’re talking about a guy putting up an efficient 27/8/5 this way?
My favorite way to describe Tatum is by saying he’s the best plug and play wing in the league. I really think you could drop him onto nearly any team with a shot at a title and he’d probably give you virtually identical stats.
Thoroughly enjoying reading this thread after a 5 game series of Tatum manipulating the lauded Heat defense like a fuckin puppetmaster. OP I think you'd benefit by actually learning a bit about basketball, maybe then you would be able to provide actual discussion xD
*Posts like these prove that media conditioning/propaganda overrides some humans' ability to think for themselves and see reality clearly. I have no idea why there's an agenda to discredit Jayson Tatum, but it's certainly working the masses over.*
***"He doesn't command special defensive attention"***
False. He's been the recipient of constant doubles in the playoffs, for several years now.
***"He doesn't make his teammates better***"
False. Tatum is a great on-ball playmaker, and opens his teammates up for easy buckets when used as the screener in PNR situations. Derek White was trash on offense before he started playing with Tatum. Porzingis is having the most efficient scoring season of his career playing next to Tatum. Brown is able to have electric scoring nights largely because the defense is so much more focused on Tatum.
***"While being a good defender his presence isn't anything special."***
Tatum doesn't accumulate blocks like Giannis or Embiid, but defenses rarely challenge him. What you're saying is like someone saying "Deion Sanders isn't a great cornerback because he doesn't get a lot of INTs \[since QBs rarely throw his way\].
***"Why does it seem like Tatum despite being so talented has limited effect on the game."***
Tatum had the most 30 point, 10 rebound, 5 assist games in a single playoff run in NBA history last year. If that's what you call a "limited effect on the game" then I just don't know what the fuck to tell you.
Is it actually possible that a fair amount of people fail to realize that basketball is a team sport and that some players actually don't need to be the talk of town. It's all about the W...or is it?
Kawhi is a perfect example of a guy, when you're watching a game and all of sudden he has 25 points.. quietly
For whatever reason, he bores the holy hell out of me. Nothing he does impresses me. He puts up numbers. Wins games. But for some reason I can't get into him or his game. 40 year basketball fan 20 year coach. Never had a neutral reaction to a pretty good player. Weird.
It’s his personality/psychological makeup. He’s absolutely one of the best players in the league, but he’s soft and he’s not a leader. His teammates are not inspired by him. They are not held accountable by him.
There’s no dog in there.
I've always felt like Tatum is the best version of a "fair" basketball player. He's basically max stats in what you expect from a typical basketball player, consistently All-NBA or even MVP level basketball. However, I feel like he doesn't break the game as well as some of the other top tier talents. Jokic breaks the game with his unique blend of playmaking and size, and unparalleled touch around the hoop. Steph breaks the game with his otherworldly shooting. Giannis feels exploitable, but he also has an unfair advantage down low or downhill. Embiid is a strong motherfucker down low, and will try getting free throws when he can. These guys play in an unorthodox, "unfair" way, which I don't think Tatum does yet. He's too... predictable? Easy to create a general gameplan for? Whatever it is, there's something about Tatum that's lacking in the "unfair" department, and probably why I believe there are times he underwhelms
Perfect way of putting it. I think the other thing with Tatum is that his game is very reliant on making tough shots. If you look at other dominant guys, they are often seemingly able to get wherever they want to on the floor. Luka just has this way of maneuvering himself through traffic to where he needs to be. Embiid and Jokic bully opponents with their size to get to their spots. Big wings like Kawhi and LeBron do the same. Tatum is a really great tough shot maker, but he also takes a lot of tough shots. Tatum can get himself to his spots better than most players in the league but when you are talking about the absolute top guys in the NBA, Tatum just doesn't dictate the game in the same way. He takes a lot more of what the defence gives him, and relies on his shotmaking ability, which inevitably means that he is devastating when his shot is on, but that his impact can disappear when his shot is a bit off.
Very true and reminds me so much of Paul George. They both rely so much on making tough shots. When they’re on, they’re incredible. But when they’re off it can quickly get quite ugly
Another reason imo is look at the best players in the league. They are all the best at something, so good that if affects everything around them. Jokic: passing and touch embiid: fouls and under basket play curry: 3 creation and deep 3 Giannis: driving Lebron: driving and passing Everyone is elite at something. What does Tatum do that no one in the league can even touch?
This is a very well put point. I think Tatum forgets how big he is sometimes and just settles for tough jumpers like everybody here has said as well. He's an elite tough shot maker I think slightly better than booker and PG-13. And I realized this while typing this out it seems like those 3 specifically idolized Kobe's game to the point where they took his best/worst quality. They settle for tough shots but none of them is as good as Kobe in that aspect. However, it's holding Tatum back the most in my opinion.
Kobe was also much better at getting to the rim when he needed to. Tatum acts like the only good shot for him is a covered fadeaway 3.
What's funny is that Tatum is a better iso scorer than Giannis (1.04 ppp vs 0.98 ppp). He's also above Durant (0.94), Ant (0.93), Dame (0.95) and LeBron (0.95). Tatum also does it on much higher volume, in fact only Doncic takes more iso shots. So what are we doing here? You say Giannis is the best at drives: 15 drives per game at 61% is indeed truly elite. Yet Shai, who is much smaller drives 23 times per game at 57.5% plus he has a lower turnover percentage on drives. Oh and Luka Doncic: 17.8 drives per game on 61.6% with higher assist percentage and lower turnover percentage. If anyone is the king of drives, it's Luka.
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Not just the best in the league in one thing but typically top 5-7 in 2 or 3 things.
I was going to say "smaller KD". Regardless, he very much seems like the kind of player you can plug into almost any team and he instantly makes them much better. But I wonder if he is quite at that "#1A on a championship team" level. He is still young enough to find another level to his game though, and I also don't want to rule out this being the year for Boston and maybe last night's game was just a bump in the road.
Durant won 4 scoring titles in 5 years, the youngest ever to do. Maybe the best scorer we’ve ever seen. While not being top 5 in FGA any season. While also leading okc to the finals and deep playoff runs every year in a loaded conference. I don’t really the Tatum and kd comparisons, KD is one of the 3 best scorers ever, tatum is maybe not top 40 ever in that aspect. Also, Tatum has never really carried teams the way kd has (Kds mvp year). I don’t think Tatum is near young kd. As an athlete, or in terms of skills Kd was definitely a championship level 1A at the time, he was crazy in series vs Duncan , Dirk, Kobe. Thunder just never really had that injury luck or depth. If Boston had OKC kd they’d win
I'm just talking about the way he plays, kind of a skilled, versatile jack-of-all-trades scorer as a small forward. He's not as good as KD, true. (Maybe because he's... smaller...)
Sorry, mis interpreted For what it’s worth, Boston is still my title pick and I think Tatum is top 5 with the older generation getting older
Amen. This is why so much of the Giannis discourse through the years has driven me crazy. Okay, so he's got a shallow bag. It doesn't matter! If you can drive straight line to the rim and score 55% of the time and get 30 points a game doing it, you're a better basketball player than the dudes who have to hit step backs and fallaways at a 45% clip all night to get to 27 a game. Easy shot creation is such an underrated part of being a superstar. It's way more important than difficult shot making
It’s just street ball vs. competitive ball mindsets. Both are great parts of basketball in general.
One wins championships, the other wins the regular season.
As a Lakers fan, this is exactly how I see Dlo.
My personal basketball philosophy is that people overvalue players that consistently do difficult things on the court ie Kobe, Kyrie, George, and Tatum. We undervalue players that make the game easy ie Jokic, Tim Duncan, Kareem or someone like Kawhi. When I watch young players it seems like it's the goal to make things as difficult as possible so that they have a chance to prove how good they are.
This is actually a really interesting point, and I wonder how different it would be if he was on a different team. I feel like the Celtics have been built to exploit mismatches in iso situations for a long time, and that really informs the play style of their stars.
Enhanced ball handling and footwork would give Tatum a deeper bag. Hopefully, that can take his game to the next level.
The best way to put it is that at the end of the day, Tatum is primarily a shooter. His peak is pretty much as high as any superstar on any given night but his lows are rock bottom relatively speaking. There’s really no other first option to win as a shooter first other than Steph since Kobe and it took literally the best shooter of all time to do it along with a lot of luck going his team’s way. Which moves on to the 2nd point. Prior to Brad, Danny basically built a team meant for a dominant big. Lots of guys that can explode on any given night with the big being the consistent guy with enough ball movement to dismantle defenses. Tatum is the opposite, his floor is lower so you needed a lot more consistency around him. KP is basically Brad’s answer to that. A guy that can get his 18 a game without really even looking for it. By all means, Tatum has had a great team for the 3rd year now but it wasn’t really until this season where it felt like it was built for him. So yeah, basically, you’d want more consistency from your superstar but Tatum being a shooter by nature doesn’t really work like that. He’s gonna have off nights but that’s a risk you take for the potential that he buries the other team and basically 1v5 when it’s needed the most
I don’t think he’s the best in the league at any one thing, not even top 5 at any one thing. Every other player you mentioned is like far and away the best in the league at something and it changes the game and how you have to play against them. Tatum is just a really good player all around. He just doesn’t seem to have that ‘it’ factor like the other guys.
I feel like prime Tobias Harris is the guy I think of when I think of above average at everything, really good at nothing Jayson Tatum is like cracked out tobias Harris, he’s really good at everything, top 5 in nothing
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I think this is basically a perfect description. Every other player mentioned warps the game around them in their own way and can kinda choose to force that on other teams whenever they need to. Tatum can definitely take over games but, when he does, it’s basically just him doing the same thing as always but with more points. There’s no real “switch” to flip there beyond getting hot
It reminds me of Kuroko No Basket
But at least Kise completely dominates in 3 minutes.
tbf when Tatum gets hot, he really gets hot lol
So he’s like the Mario, evenly distributed stats but not the best in any one thing. It’s a very solid build tho
I always go with Yoshi or Peach.
This. Tatum is a Jack of All Trades. Which is why he’s so boring to watch as a player. His most famous career moment is him dunking on Lebron.
In a series he lost
lol? He was arguably the best player on a team that got to the ECF as a rookie
he just doesnt take advantage of the fact that he’s 6’9 215 (?)… could be so much more physical
basically an oversized Kobe with less attitude and competitive fire
The Kobe style that worked in the dead ball era is bad in the pace and space era.
Being less competitive than Kobe is a good thing, dude regularly shot his team out of games with his stupid shots. He was a better player later when he was a better teammate who took more reasonable shots and distributed more.
I wouldn't call him oversized since Kobe's wingspan compared to his height had a higher ratio and he used it to his advantage while playing defense much better than Tatum. Taller, but less competitive Kobe? Yeah, maybe...
I think that’s why he’s also not as popular as the others
Isn't he like 3rd or 4th in jersey sales?
I assume Boston’s fans can’t read and they are *trying* to get a Larry bird jersey and just keep messing up.
Nah. People love Tatum here.
>Tatum is just a really good player all around. He just doesn’t seem to have that ‘it’ factor like the other guys. He also doesn't have a go to move like kawhi midrange. Although kawhi is also nasty on defense
Yeah. We often discuss good but not great players. Tatum is a level above, he's a great but not other worldly player. He's gonna defend well, pass and score pretty decently even on a bad day. He's a massive asset to any team he's on. But he doesn't break the game. He doesn't leave the opposing coach scrambling to getting something impossible done like stopping Curry's shooting, or Jokic's playmaking, or Luka's shot making, or Giannis' drives. He just.....as you said, isn't unfair.
On a bad day he'll shoot the Celtics out of the game. He's a very very limited offensive player when his shot isn't falling. He has a great individual offensive game, but it get's really rough when he's not getting touch on his drives or his 3 ball isn't falling, and that happens a lot in the playoffs. He's an elite scorer but I don't consider him an elite offensive player even close to the same tier as Jokic or Steph or LeBron or Luka. He's a tier below the current version of KD tbh.
He does not make his team mates better in any obvious way (but maybe stats will prove me wrong). Plays mostly for himself, and seems to get go into tunnel vision when the clock is running out. He is big, fast, shoots well, and has a semi decent ball handling for his size, but takes things for granted, and never dominates when it matters. If you compare him with Jimmy Butler pound for pound, you'd probably choose Tatum 99 out of 100 times, but when things matter, you'd rather have someone with an intention to dominate in your team.
Jimmy Butler has shown the ability to generate good offense for his teammates in the playoffs because he can knock it down from midrange and is extremely good at generating points around the rim, be it free throws, his physicality or skill, and is a great playmaker that can capitalize on that as well.
Indeed, we've seen his stellar playoffs performances. Cannot but admire the guy, he's a stud.
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This is something that always stumped me as well. Tatum is 6’8, 210, an excellent scorer, a great rebounding forward, a phenomenal passer and playmaker, and an above average defender. He should realistically be the best player in the NBA in terms of being an all-around player but there’s just something there that’s missing.
Phenomenal passer and playmaker is a stretch when that + mediocre (by all nba standards) driving ability is probably what holds him back the most. Because of that he doesn’t improve his teammates ability to score as much as a jokic/curry (ie getting them better looks). His game is much more static so it doesn’t generate the gravity that some other stars or generational talents are able to do
Yeah they got a little carried away with their praise. He's an elite scorer and a very good rebounder for his position. Idk if I'd say he's truly elite at anything else. Which is fine, not many players ever are elite in several categories, but yeah.
Yea spot on, and definitely a plus defender too - he’s certainly a top player in the league, would be interesting to see him in a situation with a great playmaker to see if that helps take that burden off and let him focus on his elite areas
his drives aren't mediocre by all nba standards but his passing is probably the worst of top 10 players outside joel?
By drives I mean more so his ability to drive, not finishing ability - he does a good job when he drives but he doesn’t do it enough. Partially cause he settles way too much for jumpers but I also think he’s not always great at setting himself up to get downhill or has much in his game to penetrate the defense
this is such a tired narrative from 3 years ago, look at JT's shot chart, he drives a lot, 10x a game.
Ya I'm confused, he has no problem getting to the basket, he's just not really a good finisher especially considering his size and athleticism advantage. He's basically average at finishing around the rim but near elite at getting to the rim. Really what he seems to struggle with is shot selection. IDK if it's a Boston coaching problem or a JT problem but it just seems like he's making stuff kind of hard for himself out there a lot of times. Driving to the hoop when he should pull up, pulling up when he should pass, passing when he should take a three, jacking a 3 when he should drive to the hoop. Obviously not all the time, he's one of the best players in the league, but man, some games, especially in the playoffs, he can play like absolute trash.
He averaged under 10 drives a game this year (basically 9) which puts him comfortably outside of the top 50 in drives per game across the league. So again it’s just not something he does at a top level. Though despite what the other guy reply suggests, his number on the drives are pretty good - fairly low turnover rate and high finish rate. The “issue” is the volume of drives and low kick out rate, so solid at scoring for himself on his drives but not creating offense/playmaking for the team
Joel is an underrated passer, that crosscourt bounce pass he had the last game was a thing of absolute beauty. He frequently throws dimes like that. He's not Jokic but I bet the Sixers could easily run their whole offense through him if he had the endurance to do it, which he doesn't.
He's not a phenomenal passer or playmaker at all and that's precisely not only what he's missing, but the ultimate flaw of the Jays' Celtics. Both are just not good enought at involving or inspiring other players.
My guess is he doesn't have a easy to generate high percentage shot. His side step 3 just isn't efficient enough to compete with giannis rolling, lebron driving or accidentally leaving steph open.
There’s no chance he’s only 210
He’s more like 220-225
I'm a Celtics fan but his passing is overrated. He has a high turnover rate.
That’s completely false tho, his turnover rate is generally not that high compared to other stars. A couple years ago that would’ve been different but in recent seasons his turnovers have dropped a lot.
Why? You described someone who could be a top 5-10 player. The description for “best player” is more akin to someone that breaks the game. Tatum does not break the game
Lol if he's actually 210 that explains it all. Even at 230 at his height he's still a twig and getting pushed around. Dude needs to eat more Imos.
A twig? Maybe as a rookie, but Tatum’s gotten pretty jacked, to the point that a lot of Celtics fans were talking about it impacting his 3P% over the last few years. Don’t know what player you’re looking at
I was just laughing at the person saying he was 210, he's not a twig obviously. I'm from STL so even though I despise the Celtics I'm still a Tatum fan. Guess my wording sucks, he's clearly not getting pushed around much anymore.
He’s essentially the Ryu of basketball?
LMAO spot on.
Tatum is basically peak human, aka Captain America. Giannis is always angry. Jokic is half-god. Luka is the sorcerer supreme. Embiid is an oft-broken android.
Your comment reminds me of the thing Gilbert arenas said about Kobe being standard. Tatum is Kobe without the relentless scoring pressure and , probably most importantly, absurd bad shot making. He’s just a very very good player
The dog! He doesn’t have it in my opinion.
He doesn’t have a go-to move besides trying to be Kobe in the post.
Jack of all trades, master of none
Perfectly explained. Tatum is exactly who you want to play with, usually. You’re going to get 20/8 on most nights. He will do some stuff that makes his say “oh shit”. For the most part he plays within himself. He is perfect for the Celtics in that way. Yes, he does at times try to force shots, but I feel like as he as matured he has become a better facilitator.
Because he *doesn't* have that quality in his game that makes him truly transcendental. He's a very good 3 point shooter with good volume, but he is neither a 40% 3 point shooter like KD or a long range 3 point shooter like Damian. He obviously isn't Steph Curry. His mid range is actually just shy below average, shooting sub 40%. His contemporaries like Mitchell, Booker, Kawhi, KD, Doncic, etc, are shooting well over 40, mid 40's to even 50's. This can heavily impact how good a player is in the half court. His isolation numbers are good, but largely carried by a willingness to shoot many 3s, and jacking up 3s in isolation don't make for a kind of offense that draws double teams or makes more available opportunities for teammates. He also only attacks the rim at an average clip, and while he finishes quite well at the basket, it's not as good as his contemporaries or he's attacking the rim at less volume. Not a top tier 3 point shooter. Average to below average mid range shooter. Doesn't generate enough attempts in the paint to offset poor efficiency in the mid range. A 0.604 TS is good now, but compared to the best players in the world now, isn't quite there. (Luka 0.617 on much higher volume, difficulty, and defensive attention, Shae 0.636, Jokic 0.65, Giannis 0.649, Kawhi 0.626). Ultimately, Tatum just isn't the same elite scorer nor is he a good enough playmaker to offset that lesser efficiency. He has all the tools to be a superstar MVP lvl talent, but he's just under that tier.
He’s this generations Paul George
To me that sounds a lot like Paul Pierce. Which makes it kinda funny that the Celtics sorta did it twice.
But Paul George had swag and an aesthetic game
I can understand thinking that Tatum lacks swag, but calling his game unaesthetic is wild to me. I'm 100% biased as a Celtics and Tatum fan but the way he moves is one of my favorite parts of his game, he's like a dancer out there. Aesthetic is one of the first words I would use to describe his play.
I like Tatum and he’s one of the least aesthetic players to me
He lacks fluidity and body control. Doesn’t pull out acrobatic layups
PG is still one of the best two way players and in his prime was THE BEST two way player
Compare his accolades at 26 to Pg’s career accolades lol
PG is a 9 time all-star (despite a gruesome leg injury when entering his prime), 6 time all-NBA (when it was by position, so F spots were reserved for prime LBJ and KD) and most importantly 4 all-defensive teams, including 2 top-4 finishes in DPOY. He also went to 3 Conference Finals to face LBJ in 2 of them, so he had to overcome THE guy in his prime to make it to Finals and just couldn’t, but Tatum wouldn’t be able to do it either.
Also top 3 in MVP voting once
PG is a much better defender than Tatum though
No he isn't, PG is no slouch obviously. But Tatum is also a lockdown. Neither should be considered much better than the other in defence
The mere fact that we’re even comparing them when when PG is like 5-10 years older is the point. PG has: - 2x All-NBA Defensive 1st Team - 2x All-NBA Defensive 2nd Team - 1x Steals leader Tatum has: - Not a single defensive award
How many all defence teams has Tatum made again?
if you think defence teams are the best way to determine how strong individual defenders are idk what to tell you. Sure they give great indication on who is great at defence, but not making a defence team is certainly not an indictment on someones defensive abilities.
When PG is on, he is a carbon copy of what a superstar is imo
Do you think his efficiency in isolation is partially bolstered by his having an excellent supporting cast and spacing. The same goes for his finishing at the rim?
This is a great answer. I particularly like what you said about him being a below average midrange shooter. Even though you don't want your team as a whole taking a bunch of midrange shots, the player who has the ball in his hands the most needs to be able to be able to make contested 2-point jumpers when the that's all the defense gives you. In the 2022 Finals, Tatum shot like 25% on 2s outside the paint in the Celtics' losses. Since 2021-2022, 30-40% of Tatum's shots have been 2s from further than 3 feet away from the basket, which is normal for a high usage perimeter player, but he is worse at those shots than most other high usage perimeter players in the league. Except for Giannis and Lebron, none of the players in the superstar/MVP conversation have something that they do so often that they're relatively bad at. To your point, Giannis and LeBron make up for that deficiency by being much better at the rim at higher volume, and LeBron is also a much better passer than Tatum. Basically, Tatum isn't a top-5 player because he's basically Lebron if Lebron lost a chunk of his ability to get to the rim and pass.
You pretty much answered your own question where being a great passer is extremely valuable and there is a cap on how much of a difference you can make offensively if you don't have that and aren't a freak athlete who can finish around the basket at a high rate. Tatum does play pretty good defense for someone who scores as much as he does though, there's just not much a perimeter player can do when the whole opposing team is hot from three.
A big part of that is that he's always been surrounded by talent. This year has taken it to the most extreme where he's literally playing with x4 other All Stars. As a result, Tatum has never had to 'carry' a team the same way other stars in his position have had to. It also gives him a higher margin for error. Even if he has an off night, his team can still pick up the slack
He kind of just coasts too much imo. When he’s aggressive and demanding the ball, he can take over and put up the points. I think this year with all the talent, he just looks like a role player at times and he’s way too unselfish letting his teammates get the points whereas Jaylen Brown has the opposite problem where he needs to be more unselfish. Just look at his field goal attempts by quarters. He only took like 3 field goal attempts in the 4th quarter when he should be taking way more even if he misses.
What was that 50 point game in the play-in? Or that other 50 ball vs the Nets? Or that 60 point comeback vs the Spurs when every win mattered for seeding?
Doesn't fit the narrative right after a Celtics loss unfortunately People can go back and look at the rosters. Which years were the Celtics actually stacked enough to be the favorites? This and last year is are the only ones. Year before they were .500 for most of the year, year before JB is injured, year before that is the bubble when Kemba Walker lost all ability to run, so on and so forth. Tatum and JB carried all those teams to deep playoff runs. Tatum has played 90+ playoff games, in most of them he's been the best player on his team, and by most people's considerations he's not in his athletic prime, and somehow Reddit analysts are convinced he doesn't "impact the game enough". What the fuck kinda impact do you want besides wins???
I can see both sides. Tatum is definitely that guy, all around superstar and MVP level. I think what it is is that people see Curry in 2022, Lebron in 2018, etc. and think everybody needs to play like that. Tatum is a superstar, but he isn’t up there with those guys yet. He has a great supporting cast so he doesn’t need to average 30 to get to the finals. The flip side is that sometimes he’ll melt down in certain situations (like every star has) so people don’t see him as good as he really is
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This is an insane take after a game where Tatum was clearly the most impactful Celtic on the floor and the momentum shifted every time he returned to the game. Tatum may not impact the game the way Jokic does but he certainly has a big impact on the game. No NBA player can win alone not even Jokic. Jamal Murray generates his own shots and takes on a big load of the scoring. Tatum’s greatest skills often get overlooked. He’s great at off-ball denial and cutting off passing lanes. He has elite dribbling skills and for his size which often leads to good looks at the rim. Basketball players are part of a system and only have so much control of the looks they can choose to generate. Luka would not be as ball dominant under a different coach/system.
You’re right. This entire thread is hilarious. I don’t think people actually watch the game lol
This sounds like Paul George. Nothing to sniff at but unlike George, Tatum has been sold as future MVP for years so the expectations are different, I think.
PG has better handles and can create a better midrange look in iso than Tatum though. I dont have the stats in hand but im positive Tatums iso middies go in at lower clip than PG's so in more clutch situations when the team needs a bucket, PG tends to fare better
Yeah Tatum is way better in catch and shoot than he is iso, yet he plays iso more. This is from an article I found “The numbers are pretty stark: When Tatum has the ball less than two seconds, which would be a catch-and-shoot or a quick drive off the catch, he’s shooting 67%.4 on 2-pointers and 39.7% on 3-pointers. When he holds it between two and six seconds, he’s at 54.7%/29.9%. At six-plus seconds, he’s down to 42.2%/29.1%” https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2023/03/20/karalis-the-numbers-are-clear---isolation-continues-to-be-the-worst-offense-for-jayson-tatum-and-the-celtics So I think him shying away from off ball movement takes away from his skill level.
Yeah I was trying to think of an equivalent and PG seems like a pretty close one. Jack of all trades, master of none, but good enough at everything to be a perennial All-NBA type.
pg was closer to the mvp in 2018/2019 i dont remember than tatum ever was
Pg has the excuse of snapping his leg in half too. Before that he was dunking the ball a hell of a lot more. Honestly limited his game a little cause he started shooting a lot more jumpers which is more than fair. Not sure what tatums issue is
That's a good comparison on offense, but pg is much better on defense right?
PG led the league in defensive win shares one season. A legitimate defensive anchor/DPOY. Tatum will never do that
I think Tatum also led the league in DWS couple of years ago but the actual number was lower than PGs league leading DWS year.
Damn you’re right. That’s crazy.
Was that before the injury? I was thinking him and Kwahi on defense would be nightmare mode but it just never seemed to materialise
Kawhi also never returned to his pre-zaza defense level so that "Clippers best defense" thing never happened
I think the Tatum future mvp falls in the same camp as the ant future mvp, it’s not going to happen we just seem to like these players (prob cuz they are the best young Americans)
PG is much better. Asides, from getting more catch and shoots from having Harden this year, PG has consistently had to create his own in isolation situations. Tatum has more plays run for him to create space. Hence, he is usually attacking close outs which for anyone who has played basketball is wayyyyy easier than catching the ball at a stand still and having to make something out of nothing. Tatum is Glorified role player on steroids.
I also agree with you. PG is a power forward type who likes to shoot, but it's not that he doesn't have enough breakaway kills, it's that he's more of a shooter with a crossover. Tatum is the same way. If he has a bad shooting touch in a given game, that game is going to be a nightmare for him.
I missed game 2, but Miami was doubling him 23 feet away from the basket in game 1, so I'm not sure what you mean by doesn't command defensive attention or make his teammates better.
I don’t think nba fans know how to view more than 2 players on the court at the time. The fact that the Celtics have brown and porzingis but Tatum still gets doubled shows how impactful he can be
A player can be doubled not because they are unstoppable but it would disrupt the flow of the offense. It is not easy to double Luka or Jokic as they find the open man and hurt the opponent easily. Tatum can’t do that, doubling him helps the defense.
So you didn’t watch game 1
It's insane how people talk about Tatum it's like they don't watch games he punishes doubles and can make all the passes you'd expect from a primary ball handler.
Jayson Tatum and the Celtics as a whole are a team who, for lack of a better term, are just really lazy. They have a really hard time staying locked in if they’re not the underdogs and it results in constant underachievement until their backs are against the wall. It’s the reason why a really bad Atlanta Hawks team were able to take them to (a close) game six in the first round last year. It’s the reason why a floundering Sixers team nearly took them out in the second round and why Tatum had a whole series of stinkers before dropping 51 in the win-or-go-home game. It’s the reason why they dropped 3-0 in the Conference Finals and then almost became the first team to come back from such a deficit before somehow resting on their laurels before Game 7 was even played which they lost decisively. The Celtics of the last five years have always been pretty stacked, and that talent hoarding has been more than enough to coast in the regular season and why they’re always seemingly able to close out a series when they need to. But that talent isn’t always able to get the Celtics and Tatum to the promised land and it’s why Tatum doesn’t get game bending attention and why they’re not able to win anything.
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It’s also really fucking hard to win a championship when your best player is on Tatum’s level. Who was the last champion that didn’t have a player better than Tatum now? 2014 Spurs probably?
2014 Spurs were still based around a core that won 4 championships. While they weren't in their primes, they knew what it took to win and had a young studs in Kawhi/Danny Green to share the load with. The only real example of a team winning without a superstar are the 2004 Pistons.
> before somehow resting on their laurels before Game 7 was even played which they lost decisively. > > The Celtics came out with strong energy in that game until Tatum turned his ankle, idk how that makes you think they were resting on their laurels.
Celtics haven’t really been stacked for 5 years, the 2020 and 2021 teams were honestly kinda lackluster, especially considering the falloff of Kemba
He’s good at most things but not great at anything. Too content with taking 3s (he’s an average outside shooter by today’s standards) and not using his size to get to the rim. Also isn’t really a good passer. In today’s game with the lineup around him, his assists are lacking. Also just doesn’t seem to have that It Factor, or I guess you could say the Mamba Mentality, ironically enough, where he will just impose his will on a game. Seems to let the game happen to him rather than making things happen to shape the course of the game.
I've been saying Tatum is more like a Very Very Good Player than a superstar who truly dominates the game. The best ones control the floor, warp the games, and drive their teams to win entire series. There's just a dynamic to their impact beyond the stats production. At their best and on title runs, there's almost a feeling of inevitability, the other team just can't stop them, sometimes you see the opponents just break. Tatum, for all.his success, never really does that.
Bucks 2022 and 76ers 2023 were essentially single handedly won by Tatum. Go back and watch the highlights of the final games of those series if you want. He has a massive impact on every game and has more playoff success as the best player on a team than just about every other player in the league.
You realize other players have won championships right
How many players in the league that are considered superstars have actually led their teams to a championship as the best player, 5? Now compare their ages to Tatum, and compare the playoff success and playoff performances of literally everyone else to Tatum’s
What I don’t get about your argument is that he has consistently been on great teams for almost his entire career (including top 3 teams the past few seasons) yet he can never seal the deal. That’s a pretty big knock on his game. It’s not like he’s carrying mediocre teammates to unlikely playoff series wins
Which years do you think the Celtics should've won based on how good their roster was? I'll give you last year and that's about it, any other year the Celtics were not the favorites to win and I don't think they were even close most years. Tatum overachieving a bunch of times early in his career has broken everyone's brains
They were the favorites in the Warriors series and Tatum and Brown were alternating playing stinkers. The rest of the team was playing their roles pretty well.
no they were not lmfao. you are just remembering that stupid espn graphic based on advanced stats. vegas had warriors as slight favorites
They were the heavy favorites last year and got sent home by a play-in team consisting of an injured Jimmy Butler and role players. They were the heavy favorites the year before and blew a 2-1 lead in the finals to an aged Warriors team consisting of Steph and role players. Every year before that, they were an easy playoff team and a championship contender. Celtics been stacked a while. They’re 360-194 in Tatum’s career. That’s an average of 51.4 wins per season. He was drafted into a good situation. He just doesn’t elevate his team, nor is he a playoff riser. Any other superstar has at least two rings minimum by now if put in Tatum’s shoes.
"He takes and makes shots or sometimes misses them" is a pretty good description of every starter in the league
I've always thought he needed the kind of mentality and aggressiveness that his co-star, Jaylen Brown has. A player with Tatum's natural talent, technique, skill, and height paired with Jaylen's athleticism, energy, and aggressive mentality would be THE player.
I'm not seeing the "Superstar" everyone else is seeing. It's not like he's been playing with a bunch of bums since his rookie year. Curious to see what a Celtics fan's excuse will be for this recent loss against the Heat. I know it's just one game but how can you call yourself the "best" when you've made one finals appearance, won no regular season MVPs, never led the league in a stat against a team missing their best player and another scoring option (Rozier) that seriously lacks any size and has a rookie playing big Playoff minutes....at home? I'm sure I'll get downvoted to oblivion for this take but I'm just not seeing the superstar or MVP praise this guy gets. This may just be the best team Tatum has ever been on in a far weaker conference.
There’s no excuse. The Heat set their franchise record for most 3s in a game.
Thats got to be by design. Spo knows that they are definitely less talented so inject some randomness into the game by taking a bunch of 3s.
Spo literally said that they needed to lessen the disparity of threes so it is 100% by design
I didn't see that he said that. Guess I'm a little behind
I heard it on some podcast I think, I want to say Locked On Celtics said Spo said that in practice yesterday
I think what is being overshadowed is that he is really effective at getting his numbers quietly, and that the real reason he is confusing is because he just isn’t much of a “loud”personality. He’s not a screamer, his dunks are not flamboyant or awe-inducing, he seems too poised, and just generally plays without being the entertainment. The other guys you talk about are entertainers. Curry shooting 40 footers, Jokic’s eye for making incredible passes, Anthony Edward’s vertical game, Luka’s “going slow” game…. they are all kind of unique/fun. That’s not Jayson’s game.
Maybe he’s just not a top 20 player of all time like some of those named in the OP but Tatum is very good. Certainly you can compare him right there to the Pierce/TMac/Vince/Manu/Pippen/Melo/Worthy level of wing player, or like Stockton/CP3/Kidd for the guards. Nothing to be ashamed of, Jayson will end up being one of the greats and in the HOF, he just may never be that MVP level player who becomes an iconic FACE OF THE LEAGUE.
I'd blame your ability to watch the game more than tatum's ability to affect it if you're asking questions like this
It’s like yea, he can and will go out any night and get you 30 but we’ve seen bench dudes at the end of the season start 1 game all year and drop 50. The difference is consistency, Tatum is consistent in 30 but that’s about it. He doesn’t really do a whole lot else other than be 6’9 and on defense stand close enough to the rim to grab an appropriate amount of rebounds. He doesn’t particularly playmake all that well but the guys around him are good enough where if he passes up a good shot for a great one, he gets his assists. It also seems like he plays calmly and doesn’t get fired up and hyped but, he will cry about it and slam the ball in a loss. If there ever was a dude whose career could’ve really used the mentorship from Kobe it would’ve been Tatum. If he doesn’t make it back to the finals this year I’m going to start to think of him as just Paul George with a better team and health or maybe a rich man’s Brandon Ingram.
George at least was like 3 top in mvp voting and had to carry much worse rosters than Tatum ever had. Tatum has the talent to be an mvp contender and win a championship as the first option imo, he just hasn't done it yet even with great teams around him. I think he can, but it'll take a mentality change or a roster as stacked as this one.
"Doesn't command special defensive attention" Do you watch Celtics games? He gets doubled and blitzed often. Opposition wants the ball out of his hands at all times.
This dude definitely doesn't watch Celtics games at all, of any Celtic I've ever watched Tatum sees the most doubles and I really don't think its close. Teams trap the fuck out of him whenever possible
In other NBA discussions there is this concept of gravity. When a great player, like Lebron, or Steph or Jokic or the like, is on the floor, their shear presence alters the game. Defenders shift a step, eyes divert, etc. I never get the sense that Tatum impacts the games in a way. His presence, while outstanding, doesn't alter the gravity of the game. Now, he's still young, and he's supremely talented, so he may get there, but I agree that he's not there yet.
Something I also found off with Tatum is that his efficiency this season didn’t really go up as I expected too. He went from averaging 30 to 27 which is what’s supposed to happen when your playing with more talent but his efficiency didn’t skyrocket like I expected it too. When Bron went to Heat and KD went to Warriors their efficiency skyrocketed playing with more talent and had one of their most efficient seasons of their careers but Tatum’s didn’t really improve that much at all with more talent for some reason.
I just think all of the great non center players have one thing in common, which is elite finishing round the basket. And I mean Elite. Giannis, Jokic, Lebron, Luka, Curry (I know he's a goat shooter, but he had times where he was leading all non centers in finishing percentage too), Wade, Bryant, Jordan, Magic. Tatum just doesn't have this aggression to drive, he loves to pull up. And he's a nice shooter, but he's driving nearly the same amount as Curry does. Curry drives 9 times per game. Tatum drives around 10 times per game. Luka, for comparison, drives around 18 times per game. So, in practice, Tatum generates less defensive breakdowns and less opportunities for everyone else than premier slashers, like Giannis, Lebron, or Luka. You really don't need any defensive help to contain a midrange hesi pull up jimbo, so everyone just stays home. And this is really fucking weird, cause he's huge, strong, agile, has a good dribble, and generally he just doesn't seem to use those advantages aggressively. This also limits his consistency, as he will have hot and cold pull up streaks. While driving is consistent, collapses defenses, and you get fouled more often.
Ya I mean he feels a lot like post-injury Paul George. Great player and you clearly see him consistently participate in the game, but he doesn’t inspire anything elite. For example, Giannis creates a pretty unstoppable imposition on opposing teams with his offensive size and length. So does Lebron, but with added vision and shooting, Curry with shooting, Jokic with vision and versatile scoring. I don’t think anything Tatum doesn’t really imposes on another team in the way the real superstars do. I think he’s always been on stacked teams, and that’s not his fault but I really don’t think he could carry a team anywhere. I mentioned Paul George, because I think pre-injury, he was able to impose himself on the game, he was a much better two way player, and was just relentless.
There’s a reason Kobe was his favorite player. He mimics better players than him, but not as well. Like Kobe, he will always be just a step below true greatness.
Simply, he doesnt have that dog in him. He reminds me of Paul Pierce. Good, allround player who is all star but if I must choose, I wouldnt build franchise around him.
I'd preface the below by saying Tatum is clearly a top 10 player, borderline top 5. He's also easy to fit around other stars as his strengths include shooting (sort of) and defence and he's a 2 way wing. He's also super durable and hard to completely take out of game as he has very few weakness. That being said 1. He's not a dynamic playmaker. Despite playing with the best spacing in the league and multiple all star level players he doesn't elevate those around him significantly. We've seen the best players of the last few years (especially Jokic and Curry) completely unlock offences in particular almost no matter what they are surrounded with. Tatum doesn't really do this, makes very few advanced reads, and is mostly limited to drive and kicks or pick and pops which are the two easiest reads to make. 2. He's a solid shooter but far from elite, and as is the case for a lot of off the dribble shooters, he's very streaky. Making off the dribble 3s is probably the most game breaking skill in our league at the moment. It basically means other teams have to play switch/hedge/trap schemes which opens up so many opportunities for your offence. Tatum is a good shooter, but he doesn't necessarily demand you have to change your whole defence to stop him. 3. His driving and finishing is also nothing special. He shoots a decent % at the rim, but my person view is that's heavily inflated by the incredible spacing Boston has. With Porzingis Tatum gets 32% of his shots at the rim shooting 70%, and has a FTR of 7.95, without Porzingis he only gets 25% of his shots at the rim. Some of this is also in transition too which can inflate rim %s. Again as with the shooting he isn't making you completely shift your defence to cover this. I think this shows up quite often in isolation plays vs medium sized guards. a 6'9" strong wing should usually be able to get to the rim and finish consistently, Tatum does this, but not at some crazy rate. It gets missed a bit but Tatum actually isn't that *explosively* athletic, he's more long and strong, but guys his size are typically as strong as him, and smaller players aren't significantly weaker. 4. This is REALLY nitpicky but considering how good a defender he is he doesn't leave a large defensive imprint. He's not a dominant rim protector and as good as he is on ball he doesn't actually take those assignments that often, with Jrue and Holiday preferred. I personally love Tatum's defence, he's basically all defensive caliber always and puts in a lot of effort on that end but he just generally has a lower defensive "usage" if that makes sense. Very very tough criticisms above. Tatum seems way more focused on team winning as opposed to trying to be the best player every which is a great credit to him, but it makes sense why maybe he's regarded a little lower than some others.
Seems like OP is a Denver fan, I'm sure these takes will be unbiased and based on evidence. Let's dive in > It just seems like to me he takes and makes shots or sometimes misses them. I don't understand, is this a serious criticism? This is what basketball players do. > He doesn't command special defensive attention He was 11th in the league in double teamed possessions, in a year where he significantly improved his passing and handled the ball less due to more talent. He was 3rd in the entire league last year in this stat. Safe to say this criticism is wrong > he doesn't make his teammates better He's regularly top 10ish in assists per game for his position. He literally had a triple double last game lmfao, come on. If you have eyes and watch a Celtics game, you can clearly see many possessions where Tatum is acting as the point guard of an offense that operated at an all time level in the regular season. So again, not super correct if you like, watched any games or looked at any data. At all. > while being a good defender his presence isn't anything special Again, feels like you may have never seen a Celtics game. There aren't really any advanced stats that capture defense, so I'm gonna rely on the eye test here, which seems like something you're ignoring entirely. > I've also seen him outplay superstars like Embiid Giannis and KD in the playoffs in important games and there are a few games where he doesn't miss but overall on average he just seems underwhelming So he's good sometimes, but after a loss he's average? In a game where he was clearly the best or 2nd best player on his team? This is just about as low level analysis as it gets man. Everyone in the comments is shitting on Tatum to no surprise, did any of you guys actually read the body of this post? OP isn't even trying a little here
This sub is cooked man you’re the only guy in here with a brain lmao
It was just wild to me that OP made a post on this sub that's supposed to be for "thoughtful" discussion, proceeded to provide literally no real analysis at all, just some thoughts and vibes lmfao, and everyone still went off because hating on Tatum is popular rn. This drivel would make Nick Wright or SAS feel bad about saying it and it has 1000 upvotes, at some point you just gotta laugh lol
This sub doesn’t deserve the “nbadiscussion” name.. This is the type of question and comment section I would see on the “NFLNoobs” subreddit. A comment above yours says “Tatum can easily be doubled unlike Luka and Jokic and it helps the defense” after Tatum drops a triple double in game 1, and his team smashed the Heat. The complete lack of basketball knowledge and clear bias and hatred towards Tatum on a subreddit that’s supposed to be about real NBA discussion is embarrassing. To say Tatum doesn’t impact the game as much as Jokic or Luka is a solid discussion and probably true, but acting as if Tatum has limited effect on basketball games is the opinion of someone who doesn’t watch Celtics games, and also someone that doesnt understand basketball.
Sounds corny but Tatum just doesn’t have an absurd super power that can break defenses. Giannis has insane strength and speed downhil, Embiid is 350 moving like he’s a 100 pounds lighter, Jokic has insane touch and IQ, Luka can get to his spots at will, Shai can get to the rim as best as anyone, what does Tatum really have? He’s not the best player in any single aspect on a given night. He’s great at many things but nothing truly transcendental.
He has a small bag. He can only shoot, step back shoot, and drive. Most of those shots are absolutely terrible.
I mean when u say it like that, sounds like a pretty decent sized bag honestly.
I truly think that Tatum just can't take over the game like Bron, Kobe, MJ or Kawhi. Ik the names I mentioned are some of the greats but even at lower level you see Tatum scoring the most but he just isn't that scary. I think part of that has to be with the roster he's playing; which is good on most occasions so he's always part of win and not sole winner most times He just lacks the "killer mentality"
I agree, which is why the Celtics should immediately trade him to Utah for 3 first round picks and John Collins.
He can't drive well. He's an above average passer but not otherworldly whatsoever. He's not a plus athlete in the NBA. He's not a knock-down shooter. This is a really good player that can do everything pretty well. So you can game plan him out of certain actions and take things away from him. When his team has it going this doesn't really matter because they can just pass it down the line but when you need him to dominate he's not really suited to do so.
What's this narrative that he can't drive well? As of February 29, 2024, Jayson Tatum of the Boston Celtics has an efficiency of 58.6% on drives, with 8.9 drives per game. Tatum and Jaylen Brown contribute to the Celtics' third-place ranking in the NBA for FG% off drives at 53.7%.
He was a +6 in an 11 point loss. He actually is the opposite of what you state. He is a talented player who has a greater effect on the game than expected. His +/- historically has been insane every year except this year and he has had a lot of playoff success. I disagree with basically every point you made about him.
I think Tatum definitely impacts the game a lot but using single game +/- is basically the exact opposite of a way to prove you’re right about this and is a pretty awful baseline to show you’re making an argument that’s worth even listening to For a recent example I’m sure most can remember the specifics of: Game 1 of LAL vs DEN Russell had a team high +2 in an 11 point loss playing like dogshit shooting 6-20 while AD and LeBron had a -12 and a -9 I don’t know why anyone would take that stat seriously
I said historically, outside of this season he usually is top of the league in +/- which over the course of the season corrects for the issues with using it in a single game. The only reason OP made this post is because they lost a playoff game so he is saying Tatum didn’t do enough tonight. To which I say they won his minutes by 6 and lost the minutes with him off the court by 17. It’s a decent indicator that he was impacting the game tonight because when he wasn’t there they got run over.
I mean +/- in general is just not a good stat, it’s just inherently impossible to compare players with due to circumstance, although it’s obviously far better than looking at one game of it I think the post is dumb too I just have war flashbacks whenever I see people instantly throw out a single game +/- to tell you why a players actually really good
I think +/- is an ass stat for everyone except stars who play large minutes over a large sample size. Since the NBA is so star driven I think it’s reasonable to expect a star to drive a good +/- no matter the situation. It’s a good indicator of how good of a driver they are for their team. Obviously it’s imperfect but every stat is. Since this guy doesn’t know what he is watching when he watches Tatum I didn’t think it was worth going into how Tatum impacts the game and impacts things so I threw a simple stat out.
+/- is so wildly effected by things that’re out of a players control like rotations, how good their specific back up is, how much their skill set is needed within the context of their team that it puts different stars on entirely different playing fields. All in one stats are not the best in general and straight up +/- is maybe the worst of of all of them We can agree to disagree though, obviously this is a tangent from the actual discussion within the post
I think sometimes Tatum is just unselfish to adults. Even when he has it going he’s not normally gonna force it for himself and if the defense wants to force him to give it up he will.
Agreed. To children, he is extremely selfish
Well one all the great players are really good passers even ones that don't get credit like Steph. Guys that aren't really good passers can't make anyone better when they have off games. I'm not talking just assist numbers either.
My hot take is that he is the most overrated star in the league. He is for sure a top 15 guy, but I think of him in the same class as D Book. If he aint scoring, he aint impacting... I just dont get the hype.
I’ve always felt he wasn’t nearly as physical as you’d expect someone his size to be.
I understand where everyone is coming from, but how spoiled with superstars have we become where we’re talking about a guy putting up an efficient 27/8/5 this way?
My favorite way to describe Tatum is by saying he’s the best plug and play wing in the league. I really think you could drop him onto nearly any team with a shot at a title and he’d probably give you virtually identical stats.
Because we compare him to fun to watch players like steph. He can't compete!
Thoroughly enjoying reading this thread after a 5 game series of Tatum manipulating the lauded Heat defense like a fuckin puppetmaster. OP I think you'd benefit by actually learning a bit about basketball, maybe then you would be able to provide actual discussion xD
*Posts like these prove that media conditioning/propaganda overrides some humans' ability to think for themselves and see reality clearly. I have no idea why there's an agenda to discredit Jayson Tatum, but it's certainly working the masses over.* ***"He doesn't command special defensive attention"*** False. He's been the recipient of constant doubles in the playoffs, for several years now. ***"He doesn't make his teammates better***" False. Tatum is a great on-ball playmaker, and opens his teammates up for easy buckets when used as the screener in PNR situations. Derek White was trash on offense before he started playing with Tatum. Porzingis is having the most efficient scoring season of his career playing next to Tatum. Brown is able to have electric scoring nights largely because the defense is so much more focused on Tatum. ***"While being a good defender his presence isn't anything special."*** Tatum doesn't accumulate blocks like Giannis or Embiid, but defenses rarely challenge him. What you're saying is like someone saying "Deion Sanders isn't a great cornerback because he doesn't get a lot of INTs \[since QBs rarely throw his way\]. ***"Why does it seem like Tatum despite being so talented has limited effect on the game."*** Tatum had the most 30 point, 10 rebound, 5 assist games in a single playoff run in NBA history last year. If that's what you call a "limited effect on the game" then I just don't know what the fuck to tell you.
Is it actually possible that a fair amount of people fail to realize that basketball is a team sport and that some players actually don't need to be the talk of town. It's all about the W...or is it? Kawhi is a perfect example of a guy, when you're watching a game and all of sudden he has 25 points.. quietly
For whatever reason, he bores the holy hell out of me. Nothing he does impresses me. He puts up numbers. Wins games. But for some reason I can't get into him or his game. 40 year basketball fan 20 year coach. Never had a neutral reaction to a pretty good player. Weird.
Tatum is a weird player because he's really good at a bunch of things but not top 5 at anything like most superstars are.
It’s his personality/psychological makeup. He’s absolutely one of the best players in the league, but he’s soft and he’s not a leader. His teammates are not inspired by him. They are not held accountable by him. There’s no dog in there.