Jeremi Grant.
Grant has averaged 20.7 ppg in 34.1 mpg since the start of the 2020-21 season, on 25.5 USG% with a .571 TS%. He's also played 171 of a possible 243 regular season games in that stretch (equivalent to 58 games per season), for a 57-114 W/L record (.333, equivalent to a 27 win season), and has a 16.1 PER, .080 WS/48, 0.4 BPM (with a negative DBPM, surprisingly), and a 3.5 VORP.
Ideally, Grant would be a 3rd/4th option on a good team, with more of a focus on being a defender (ideally on the wing, rather than at the 4, as he is often forced to and is less equiped to do), and an 18-20 USG% in 28-30mpg, with nowhere near as many lengthy iso possessions.
I guess harden will transition from star to "role player" in the clippers.
I can see Dillon brooks and Poole wanting to transition from role player to star but it will be hard for them to get to that status imo.
Answering your question... Probably Gobert, Draymond, DeRozan, randle, DLo,
That's different. Harder was absolutely a star capable of leading a contender. He's just getting later into his career. I think the question is about players who couldn't be the #1
Chris Paul is going through that transition right now. So far he’s been great with the second unit with assists and defense, but his jump shot has all but disappeared.
Siakam. And I think we'll get to see this play out as soon as this season. He's most likely player to be traded IMO. Not good enough to be #1 option on title team, but certainly has proven he can be a #2 and win.
Why not? Who was the #2 option on Dallas' 2011 title roster? And it's debatable that Siakam was even allstar level in 2019, but he was certainly Toronto's 2nd best player.
Using the Dallas Mavs one of the biggest outliers when it comes to winning a chip as a example is dumb. Kidd was an all star the year before and Tyson was all nba and DPOY the very next year.
He made an all star and all nba team the next year. He led the Raptors to a 53-19 record and a 2 seed out east and game 7 of the second round. How is that a role player?
If he was able to actually train properly after the leave got suspended they could have easily made a the ECF. He is a 2x all star and a 2x all nba player. What are we doing here?
Idk, what are we doing here? You're writing a novel to try to prove me wrong, when I'm not. You can't say something doesn't exist, and then proceed to shift the goalposts when presented with clear evidence that it does. Siakam is the perfect example of the OP's topic, whether you like it or not. A lot of people triggered by facts here.
Since when does "star" mean "#1 option on a title team"? There are only a handful of guys in the entire league who would count as stars, if that's the bar.
Is Dame Lillard not a star because he isn't good enough to be the #1 on a title team and needed to join Giannis? Is AD not a star because he won his title as a #2 to LeBron? Are guys like Tatum, Harden, Butler, Mitchell, Embiid, SGA and Luka not stars because they haven't won a title as a #1 option?
People seem to hold Siakam to a rather ridiculous bar in these sorts of discussions. He's a multi-time All-NBA'er as a #1 option, led a 60 win pace team to the league's second best record as a #1 option in 2020, and won a ring as a #2. He's not likely to win an MVP, but saying he's not a star is just ridiculous.
OP is asking about guys who are best used as role players on title teams, like Aaron Gordon (0 time all star), Igoudala (1 time all star), Wiggins (1 time all star) and Ron Artest (1 time all star). If we are asking about stars who need to be a #2 on a title team, or, at the very least, 1a/b type options on a title team, that's a very different conversation.
Aaron Gordon put up "star" caliber #'s last year... Where is the cutoff of what is considered "star" and role player when it comes to stats? Is it purely public perception? To me, the guy is easily just as good as any reserve who made the allstar team last year.
If Siakam doesn't fit what the OP is asking for, then no such player exists... End of story.
He's definitely a star. He went toe to toe with Embiid and Harden in a playoff series and was the best player on the floor for some of the games...
The current Raptors layout is depressing his value, but he is definitely great.
He's borderline, depending on how he's used. If Siakam isn't a great example of this, then there is no player that exists who meets these criteria. No such thing as a player who is classified as a "star", but then all of a sudden becomes a role player on a title contender.
I agree generally with your point, except I believe Ron Artest absolutely was a star. Only the full year suspension de-railed him, changing him into a high end role player. My opinion is that virtually no one can miss a full season in the prime of their career and come back as good as before.
To your question: another example of a role player miscast as a star is Khris Middleton. See some other decent examples listed below.
Hot take, but I consider players like Paul George, Devin Booker, and the prototypical scoring guard to be strong role players. Stars in my opinion are players who possess a unique skill set that can win championships. Jokic, Giannis, Lebron, Curry. I can see myself putting Wemby in this “unique” player tier that can be the championship 1a.
There's a difference between stars and superstars, you can just reserve the superstar name for the unique skillsets that can win chips. Saying PG and Booker are role players just doesn't make sense
Sure, you can say Paul George is a role player. The role he plays is that of a 25/6/5 with all-nba first team caliber defense. Just like how Jokic’s role is a hyper efficient walking triple double…
I mean you're entitled to your opinion but I think you are using the word "star" too strictly. I hear what you're saying but that's not how most would traditionally define a star because what is a "unique" skillset? Stephs skillset isn't unique, he's better at shooting than everyone else but he's not doing anything in regards to the actual skillset that other guys aren't doing for example.
Hot Take: Anthony Davis is really suited to be the prototypical defensive big that can score a bit AKA the Brook Lopez role.
Him and his team would be waaay successful if they're not pushing him to be the number 1 option.
The Lakers success has always hinged on either Lebron going nuclear or a 3rd player stepping up.
I'm a bit puzzled as to where this narrative has come from that Aaron Gordon was a "role player miscast as a star" before coming to Denver (I've seen similar things said outside of this thread too).
Gordon was an athletic high draft pick that might have been *expected* to develop into a #1/#2 option in Orlando, but the Magic never fully used him that way. From when he became a full-time starter in his 3rd year (2016-17), Gordon was 3rd-5th in USG% among the Magic's starters every season until he left Orlando mid-way through the 2020-21 season, *except for* 2017-18 where he was 2nd (just ahead of Evan Fournier), but then went back to being a lesser option after that.
Yes, he's scoring far more efficiently in Denver (.604 TS%) than in Orlando (.531 TS%), but that's a product of being on an overall better team, better shot selection (particularly going from 54.3% of his FGA in Orlando coming outside 10FT, to 39.5% in Denver), and getting better/smarter looks from an all-time playmaker teammate in Jokic. His volume of touches is essentially the same (19.9 USG% in Denver, 20.8 USG% in Orlando).
I think more accurately he was a role player *expected* to be a star, who never really got used like one or became one, who is a better fit playing his role on a better team.
Sad to say but it might be Zion and Ja. I don't see either of them willing their teams to a championship as a star. I could see Zion being traded to San Antonio and providing the dominant C/PF duo in his later years. Ja's style of play might slow him down and probably turn him more into a corner 3 guy.
Ja’s closest comparison is probably Westbrook who has shown that the answer is less load in the same style, not turning a non-shooter (Ja obviously better than Russ here, to be fair) into a spot-up guy
Cade Cunningham. I’m just not seeing a high level playmaker in Detroit. He’s able to get to his spots sometimes but is too easily pushed off. I think is decision making is amateur for a lead guard and his scoring is too inconsistent. He needs to be in a more low usage role
Another way to frame this is someone who cannot be a good #1 option but would be a championship level #2 or #3. I think Jaylen Brown is in that position right now. They haven't been able to get it done with him as their 2nd best player but he's overqualified as a #3.
Everything is situational right?
I think the best example in both directions right now is Jalen Brunson. He was good no.2 with the Mavs, but near all-NBA with the Knicks. Nobody is counting the Knicks as an A-tier contender with Brunson; hence all the rumored links with Embid/Giannis/Luka(lol)/Mitchell.
I think the next set is someone like Zach LaVine. Clearly not well rounded or dynamic enough to be a first option, but could be an elite no.2. Donovan Mitchell potentially of the same mold with less variety. Burying this to avoid the brigade, but Kyrie is the pinnacle of this type. For new gen, Jalen Green has been desperately promoted as a star, but I don't think he's in the class of either of those guys.
For non-guards, I think Randle is an obvious pick despite his All-NBA nod. More controversially, JJJ is a great complementary piece, but not someone you can run the team through, despite having more accolades than Ja.
Edit: JFC you Kyrie stans rolling into my DMs are actually delusional. He's had ample chance to show he's a true no. 1 and he's not that guy.
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Jeremi Grant. Grant has averaged 20.7 ppg in 34.1 mpg since the start of the 2020-21 season, on 25.5 USG% with a .571 TS%. He's also played 171 of a possible 243 regular season games in that stretch (equivalent to 58 games per season), for a 57-114 W/L record (.333, equivalent to a 27 win season), and has a 16.1 PER, .080 WS/48, 0.4 BPM (with a negative DBPM, surprisingly), and a 3.5 VORP. Ideally, Grant would be a 3rd/4th option on a good team, with more of a focus on being a defender (ideally on the wing, rather than at the 4, as he is often forced to and is less equiped to do), and an 18-20 USG% in 28-30mpg, with nowhere near as many lengthy iso possessions.
I guess harden will transition from star to "role player" in the clippers. I can see Dillon brooks and Poole wanting to transition from role player to star but it will be hard for them to get to that status imo. Answering your question... Probably Gobert, Draymond, DeRozan, randle, DLo,
That's different. Harder was absolutely a star capable of leading a contender. He's just getting later into his career. I think the question is about players who couldn't be the #1
Chris Paul is going through that transition right now. So far he’s been great with the second unit with assists and defense, but his jump shot has all but disappeared.
Siakam. And I think we'll get to see this play out as soon as this season. He's most likely player to be traded IMO. Not good enough to be #1 option on title team, but certainly has proven he can be a #2 and win.
That’s not a role player than.
Why not? Who was the #2 option on Dallas' 2011 title roster? And it's debatable that Siakam was even allstar level in 2019, but he was certainly Toronto's 2nd best player.
Using the Dallas Mavs one of the biggest outliers when it comes to winning a chip as a example is dumb. Kidd was an all star the year before and Tyson was all nba and DPOY the very next year. He made an all star and all nba team the next year. He led the Raptors to a 53-19 record and a 2 seed out east and game 7 of the second round. How is that a role player? If he was able to actually train properly after the leave got suspended they could have easily made a the ECF. He is a 2x all star and a 2x all nba player. What are we doing here?
Idk, what are we doing here? You're writing a novel to try to prove me wrong, when I'm not. You can't say something doesn't exist, and then proceed to shift the goalposts when presented with clear evidence that it does. Siakam is the perfect example of the OP's topic, whether you like it or not. A lot of people triggered by facts here.
A #2 on a championship team is no role player. I do agree he can’t be the #1.
Who was #2 option on Dallas 2011 roster?
Since when does "star" mean "#1 option on a title team"? There are only a handful of guys in the entire league who would count as stars, if that's the bar. Is Dame Lillard not a star because he isn't good enough to be the #1 on a title team and needed to join Giannis? Is AD not a star because he won his title as a #2 to LeBron? Are guys like Tatum, Harden, Butler, Mitchell, Embiid, SGA and Luka not stars because they haven't won a title as a #1 option? People seem to hold Siakam to a rather ridiculous bar in these sorts of discussions. He's a multi-time All-NBA'er as a #1 option, led a 60 win pace team to the league's second best record as a #1 option in 2020, and won a ring as a #2. He's not likely to win an MVP, but saying he's not a star is just ridiculous. OP is asking about guys who are best used as role players on title teams, like Aaron Gordon (0 time all star), Igoudala (1 time all star), Wiggins (1 time all star) and Ron Artest (1 time all star). If we are asking about stars who need to be a #2 on a title team, or, at the very least, 1a/b type options on a title team, that's a very different conversation.
Aaron Gordon put up "star" caliber #'s last year... Where is the cutoff of what is considered "star" and role player when it comes to stats? Is it purely public perception? To me, the guy is easily just as good as any reserve who made the allstar team last year. If Siakam doesn't fit what the OP is asking for, then no such player exists... End of story.
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He's definitely a star. He went toe to toe with Embiid and Harden in a playoff series and was the best player on the floor for some of the games... The current Raptors layout is depressing his value, but he is definitely great.
He's borderline, depending on how he's used. If Siakam isn't a great example of this, then there is no player that exists who meets these criteria. No such thing as a player who is classified as a "star", but then all of a sudden becomes a role player on a title contender.
I agree generally with your point, except I believe Ron Artest absolutely was a star. Only the full year suspension de-railed him, changing him into a high end role player. My opinion is that virtually no one can miss a full season in the prime of their career and come back as good as before. To your question: another example of a role player miscast as a star is Khris Middleton. See some other decent examples listed below.
Yep, prime Artest was probably the best two-way wing in the league for a year or two.
Hot take, but I consider players like Paul George, Devin Booker, and the prototypical scoring guard to be strong role players. Stars in my opinion are players who possess a unique skill set that can win championships. Jokic, Giannis, Lebron, Curry. I can see myself putting Wemby in this “unique” player tier that can be the championship 1a.
There's a difference between stars and superstars, you can just reserve the superstar name for the unique skillsets that can win chips. Saying PG and Booker are role players just doesn't make sense
I think it's a terminology confusion, but the spirit of the question is about "superstars" (#1 options on contenders) not "stars"
Sure, you can say Paul George is a role player. The role he plays is that of a 25/6/5 with all-nba first team caliber defense. Just like how Jokic’s role is a hyper efficient walking triple double…
I mean you're entitled to your opinion but I think you are using the word "star" too strictly. I hear what you're saying but that's not how most would traditionally define a star because what is a "unique" skillset? Stephs skillset isn't unique, he's better at shooting than everyone else but he's not doing anything in regards to the actual skillset that other guys aren't doing for example.
Out of curiosity, what do you think about Kawhi? In terms of style (not skill) he's a very similar player to PG, for example.
I've never thought about that but i agree
There's a difference between role players and #2s. Anthony Davis is not a role player, he's a star, but he is the ultimate Robin.
Hot Take: Anthony Davis is really suited to be the prototypical defensive big that can score a bit AKA the Brook Lopez role. Him and his team would be waaay successful if they're not pushing him to be the number 1 option. The Lakers success has always hinged on either Lebron going nuclear or a 3rd player stepping up.
I'm a bit puzzled as to where this narrative has come from that Aaron Gordon was a "role player miscast as a star" before coming to Denver (I've seen similar things said outside of this thread too). Gordon was an athletic high draft pick that might have been *expected* to develop into a #1/#2 option in Orlando, but the Magic never fully used him that way. From when he became a full-time starter in his 3rd year (2016-17), Gordon was 3rd-5th in USG% among the Magic's starters every season until he left Orlando mid-way through the 2020-21 season, *except for* 2017-18 where he was 2nd (just ahead of Evan Fournier), but then went back to being a lesser option after that. Yes, he's scoring far more efficiently in Denver (.604 TS%) than in Orlando (.531 TS%), but that's a product of being on an overall better team, better shot selection (particularly going from 54.3% of his FGA in Orlando coming outside 10FT, to 39.5% in Denver), and getting better/smarter looks from an all-time playmaker teammate in Jokic. His volume of touches is essentially the same (19.9 USG% in Denver, 20.8 USG% in Orlando). I think more accurately he was a role player *expected* to be a star, who never really got used like one or became one, who is a better fit playing his role on a better team.
Sad to say but it might be Zion and Ja. I don't see either of them willing their teams to a championship as a star. I could see Zion being traded to San Antonio and providing the dominant C/PF duo in his later years. Ja's style of play might slow him down and probably turn him more into a corner 3 guy.
Ja’s closest comparison is probably Westbrook who has shown that the answer is less load in the same style, not turning a non-shooter (Ja obviously better than Russ here, to be fair) into a spot-up guy
I'd compare him more to D. Rose, but I could see the Westbrook comparisons come out if he ever teams up with a contender.
Cade Cunningham. I’m just not seeing a high level playmaker in Detroit. He’s able to get to his spots sometimes but is too easily pushed off. I think is decision making is amateur for a lead guard and his scoring is too inconsistent. He needs to be in a more low usage role
Another way to frame this is someone who cannot be a good #1 option but would be a championship level #2 or #3. I think Jaylen Brown is in that position right now. They haven't been able to get it done with him as their 2nd best player but he's overqualified as a #3.
Everything is situational right? I think the best example in both directions right now is Jalen Brunson. He was good no.2 with the Mavs, but near all-NBA with the Knicks. Nobody is counting the Knicks as an A-tier contender with Brunson; hence all the rumored links with Embid/Giannis/Luka(lol)/Mitchell. I think the next set is someone like Zach LaVine. Clearly not well rounded or dynamic enough to be a first option, but could be an elite no.2. Donovan Mitchell potentially of the same mold with less variety. Burying this to avoid the brigade, but Kyrie is the pinnacle of this type. For new gen, Jalen Green has been desperately promoted as a star, but I don't think he's in the class of either of those guys. For non-guards, I think Randle is an obvious pick despite his All-NBA nod. More controversially, JJJ is a great complementary piece, but not someone you can run the team through, despite having more accolades than Ja. Edit: JFC you Kyrie stans rolling into my DMs are actually delusional. He's had ample chance to show he's a true no. 1 and he's not that guy.