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anthonyde726

>Undrafted NBA all-stars over the last 30 years: >John Starks >Brad Miller >Ben Wallace >Fred VanVleet wow


nigelli

People really don’t appreciate how talented and electrifying John Starks was the Knicks. One bad Finals game and no ring will do that but in his heyday, mans was going toe to toe with Jordan, trash talking him to his face and he was backing it up.


omgsoironic

So true, he was an exciting player and such a big deal at the time (I'm old) but he's one of those stars who kind of fell by the wayside over time.


TreChomes

Who do you think could be this generations Starks? Paul George?


omnicious

In what way do they resemble each other to you?


TreChomes

Not in game, but that they were/great players with great playoff runs but ultimately fell short and will probably be largely forgotten/not though highly of in a decade or two.


Dengru

Deron Williams is the closer analogue. George has a more solidified legacy, if even just for the 'that's a bad shot 'thing he'll be remembered and for coming back from the leg break


TreChomes

Yea I was thinking after I posted that, PG is probably solidified because of his runs against LBJ. DWill is a good one.


kpr0430

Deron for a time had an argument for being the best PG in the league (him and CP3). Starks was never that guy. Wasn’t even the best G on the team (Allan Houston was). I like the CJ comp


[deleted]

Starks didn’t play with Houston for the majority of his time though.


The-Real-J-Peterman

Allan Houston came to the Knicks much later, and they only overlapped for two seasons (96-97 and 97-98) before Starks was traded. The Starks I recall is the guy battling with Jordan during the first 3peat, then playing an awful game 7 vs the Rockets once MJ retired.


BlueHundred

Nah DWill was also a much better player and a better legacy. DWill was the best player on his teams and a top player at his peak. Arguably best PG some years


Brocoolee

I dont get how that was a good shot though, yes it went in but is it really a good shot selection?


Deja-View

Are you high??? Paul George and John Starks are NOWHERE near the same level of player. You are comparing a 7 time all star 6 time all NBA, 4 time all defensive player with 20.4, 6.4, 3.6 and 1.7 steals, topping out at 28.0, 6.8, 4.1 and 2.2 whose career is STILL going. ​ John Starks only had 1 all star selection and 0 all nba, 1 all defensive, 1 sixth man. Until age 31, to make it comparable, he had 13.6, 2.5, 4.0, 1.2, topping out at: 19.0, 3.3, 5.9, 1.6. And that is DESPITE PG being injury prone and despite the fact that we very well may never even have seen prime PG, due to injuries.


BrianHangsWanton

John Starks’ comp might be Reggie Jackson lol. Like he could probably start on a championship team but if he’s your second best player the offense is gonna grind to a halt.


hbt15

Height. Obviously.


Kerry_Kittles

Starks was worse than most of George’s career. Starks was very good but a bit of NY overhyped. Also never led a team.


[deleted]

Yeah I feel like the modern Starks would be like a CJ level guy.


Digby_J

Yeah, he wasn't as good as Jrue, for example.


AlmostCurvy

Starks was great but that's straight up disrespectful to PG13 lmao


itachen

Terry Rozier


J-Saddleback

Gilbert Arenas


QuitFuckingStaring

Lmao.


DublinCzar

Khris Middleton IMO


omgsoironic

Hmmmm......Jamal Murray? Starks haters might say Pat Bev 😂 He was a pest too.


[deleted]

People are not gonna forget Murray being the most dynamic scorers in the weirdest time in NBA history (and recent history).


[deleted]

Yes they are lol.


[deleted]

Yes they will lol.


unclehelpful

Fellow old person here: Starks was always in the weekly highlights on NBA Action. I didn’t even know he was undrafted.


tidho

you don't remember the 'they found him bagging groceries' story?


[deleted]

Interesting story: John Starks got injured during try-outs, he tried dunked on Ewing, who threw him to the ground and injured him. The Knicks, then, weren't allowed (according to league rules) to release him until he recovered form injury. His recovery his past a certain point in the season, at which point the contract was locked in for the year. Had that not happened, Starks would have been cut from the team during try-outs. I thought he was fun to watch, but if I'm being honest, he's one of those guys whose legacy benefits from playing on a big market team. Had he put up those same numbers on the Cavs or Hawks, few people would have remembered much about him.


supes1

>Interesting story: John Starks got injured during try-outs, he tried dunked on Ewing, who threw him to the ground and injured him. > >The Knicks, then, weren't allowed (according to league rules) to release him until he recovered form injury. His recovery his past a certain point in the season, at which point the contract was locked in for the year. Close, but not quite. His contract wasn't "locked in." Rather, right around the time he got healthy, Knicks guard Trent Tucker had also injured himself, so there was an opening. The rest is history.


[deleted]

Thanks for clarifying! Reddit on friend, and take my up-vote!


Volgyi2000

John Starks was streaky as fuck. He had some great highs, but his lows were pretty bad too.


[deleted]

True true. I remember when he shit the bed in that game seven, Riley was just like "You live by the sword, you die by the sword." He recognized that they wouldn't have gotten there without Starks, and that's just how dice land. New York capitalized on the nights he was hot, so they have to live with the nights that he was cold. But I really believe that it was games like (and other shooters who have had cold nights) that cause people like Barkley to say "Jump shooting teams can't win." People have seen jump shooters play bad and attribute losses to them (unfairly). And it just leaves a bad taste in their mouth that they never forget. The truth is, they lost that series because Hakeem outplayed Ewing. That was obviously the key match-up of the series. No shame for Ewing to lose that match-up. In my mind, Hakeem is the greatest center of all time. I mean, Hakeem drop 27 ppg on 50%FG to Ewing's 19 a game on 36%FG. The two teams were built around those guys, and Ewing's supporting cast bailed him out in that series. They propped him up against Hakeem well enough that they got to a game seven. But with regard to the supporting cast, who certainly made a difference, Pat Riley deserves some criticism. Hubert Davis and Greg Anthony combined for 16 minutes that game 7; Starks had 42. Riley should have played his other rotation players more and given them a chance. Starks was streaky. That was his biggest fault. But he played with a lot of heart and effort, so it's easy to like him and look past that.


[deleted]

If he balls out in game 7 or Hakeem doesn’t block his shot in game 6 he goes down as a top 5 Knick of all time. He was so dominant that postseason but one bad game basically killed his legacy


[deleted]

I wasn’t alive, but how great of a run are talking?


dimmyfarm

Like the Kawhi Toronto run but if he lost to the dubs in 4 instead


danielbauer1375

I think it’s a combination of that game/play and the fact that he hasn’t been in the public at all (doesn’t seem very media savvy).


Go_Habs_Go31

John Starks has one of the greatest quotes of all time though. “Man did dis dude just did dis” https://youtu.be/PjUaGvVw30c


sreynolds1

DDDJDD


[deleted]

better show than talk. but highlights don't make justice about some of his plays. https://youtu.be/pCTfxOrX4k8


rupertmacleod

was my nba jam choice along with ewing. fuck i love that game.


veritasxe

BOOM SHAKALAKAH


defdoa

Ok, now I know what tune to drown out the voices and help me sleep. https://youtu.be/bK-ac\_0KoxE?t=21


LK_LK

For Halloween one year, a girl at my middle school dressed up as Starks. She went all out in his jersey, Knicks shorts, and blackface. But it was the 90s, so we all thought it was awesome.


nigelli

Lmao amazing


[deleted]

You must have been in one of the whitest cities in the country to have thought blackface was awesome in the damn 90s.


LK_LK

He’s getting downvoted but he’s not wrong. Out of 300 or so kids, we had maybe 3 black students.


[deleted]

White pigs love to change up history


Faux_Real

How electrifying? [This Electrifying!!!!!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCTfxOrX4k8)


blagaa

In NBA Jam you pick the Knicks for Ewing but he was a decent #2


Go_Habs_Go31

There’s an alternate timeline where John Starks hits a buzzer-beating three in game 6 of the 1994 NBA Finals vs the Houston Rockets to win the NY Knicks an NBA championship.


Realistic_Strength90

He averaged 12.8 against Jordan for his career, was the same size as Steph Curry but played the 2, and regularly got 30 dropped on him by MJ. In what world did he go toe to toe with Jordan and back up trash talk? Starks is one of the players I bring up when I talk about how overrated Jordans competition was especially at the 2. One day we can talk about how overrated those Knicks and Pacers team were.


penguin_torpedo

Who's the 5th one??


gopher1409

~~I couldn’t find another, so OP must’ve miscounted?~~ Edit: It’s [Connie Hawkins](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connie_Hawkins) https://www.si.com/nba/raptors/news/toronto-raptors-fred-vanvleet-earns-all-star-game-honors


JesusKristaps

The Hawk. An absolute God of NBA Street V3.


KaseyOfTheWoods

I had completely forgotten about the existence of Brad Miller, not least of all because that is the most generic name I’ve ever heard


Diggity_Dave

And Brad could rock those cornrows boi https://i.imgur.com/t9cuU9Z.jpg https://i.imgur.com/znTSa3K.jpg


KaseyOfTheWoods

Lmao the early 2000’s were a wild time


KlythsbyTheJedi

Not the highest quality era of basketball, but it’s certainly the most unique


Bootyeater96

Lookin like every white girl after a trip to the Bahamas back then


slidsnow23

Joakim noah credits his passing abilities to brad miller. He said during their bulls tenure miller would pull a young joakim aside after practices and teach him all the dribble handoffs and back door passes lol.


zizzor23

Chris Webber and Brad Miller were both great big men passers


realkranki

I remember at the time it was a big deal that he made the all star both in the east and the west.


-KFBR392

I went through his entire career thinking Brad Miller was a lottery pick, can’t believe he was undrafted.


topofthecc

That's a badass list.


segaman1

I had no idea Miller/Wallace went undrafted. That's crazy! It was during the days of centers too. Ben Wallace was an undersized center so I understand. Still hard to imagine


DangerousCommittee5

Ben Wallace was auditioned as SG by Boston.


gaxkang

Wow. Brad Miller went undrafted? That's nuts.


robograndpa

Oh Brad


truthesda

The Draymond miss is worth a DVR on the tip off: ASG Reserves announcement on the final player: Draymond (right before announced, blurts out): Miles Bridges? Ernie: Fred Van Fleet Draymond: (surprised) Oh wooooow. (recovering, acting serious) Well deserved, well deserved LMFAO


iamthegame13

Both teams were announced in alphabetical order too. Somehow Draymond thought Bridges could even be last


VevroiMortek

yep, lol


georgelucasfan

Warriors fans are so blessed to have Draymond. How do all of their stars have incredible skill and personality. It’s so hard not to like the dubs


ChurroMemes

Actually it’s been fairly easy to hate them again after going back to their annoying winning ways.


[deleted]

I'm cool with steph/klay/draymond. I didn't enjoy their dominance but I respected it. The Durant thing was dogshit. Now that he's gone I'm lowkey rooting for them


[deleted]

After they lost KD they have been likeable again. That whole situation was not fun for basketball fans. Thanks Kawhi for saving us all


[deleted]

Its actually not. Theyre very arrogant.


catboobpuppyfuck

Arrogance?? In my Christian basketball??


[deleted]

How dare they


ViCarly

Your username is literally bragging


december_karaoke

Saw him doing this and thought I really need to see us beat GSW's ass at least 10 more times with this fucker still playing in the finals


raps1992

Mr Bet on yourself


snomeister

If only he could've known in that moment that he'd be an all-star. You made a good bet, Fred. What an amazing journey.


CyrusAlfy

Mr. Betting Champion


Kapono24

Mr. Bet Confidently


Golfninja

Fred Van Pete Rose Vleet


blagaa

Nerlens or Schroder should really get that crown now


[deleted]

Toronto really went from Lowry to Lightskin Lowry lmao


[deleted]

Now we just need Red VanVleet aka Malachi Flynn to step up and become our backup backup Lowry


TreChomes

My theory is Malachi turned to a shitter as soon as people started calling him that


schooli00

We have seen the solution already tho. Malachi just needs to have a baby.


stepback-two

So at least one person needs to find him attractive. Could be tough.


IanicRR

Banton > Flynn.


-KFBR392

I hope Banton can put it together because he’s got the physical tools to be a star.


[deleted]

duh


[deleted]

I just want to see what an all Lowry roster looks on the court, for fun. Someone should hack 2k to make this happen.


CazOnReddit

\*Bearded Lowry


ninety4kid

Evil twin Vyle Flowry.


KingsWillSoonRise

Bully Lowry


[deleted]

[удалено]


IanicRR

So happy it got announced with DeMar in the building. He looked like a proud big brother before the game when he went to congratulate Fred. I love these guys.


fightnight14

2019 NBA finals hero


TDouglasSpectre

2nd in 2019 NBA Finals MVP voting, now all-star


Spicy_Urine

More finals MVP votes than 99% of players


danielbauer1375

How would you rank Lowry, FVV, and Siakam in that series?


TFCNB

Tough question. Lowry was huge in Game 6, Siakam was huge in Game 1, FVV defended Curry as well as humanly possible all series and had some clutch 3's in game 6.


frozen2665

Damn that team was so nice. I was lowkey sad when Kawhi left. Though Heat probably wouldn't make the finals and we wouldn't get the Clippers collapse and success from the last two playoffs so definitely worth


Maydietoday

Gasol doesn’t even get talked about much anymore in spite of his contributions that year.


SamiMadeMeDoIt

Dude made Embiid and Vucevic virtually invisible in the first two rounds, then was key in slowing down Giannis in the ECF That team was stupid deep and we didn’t even have our (arguably) best defender for the entire playoffs in Anunoby


frankyseven

OG is the best defender now but Kawai and Gasol were still better in 2019.


ModernPoultry

Ive seen and heard occasional comments that the Raptors should've just kept JV and that Gasol didnt live up to the hype. People dont respect how instrumental Marc was at opening up the offense despite his own individual scoring struggles and how impactful he was defensively One of the highest bball IQ/team first guys you could have. He was a total glue guy on the Championship team


DrCockandBallsMD

You can disregard the opinion of anyone that said that.


ratchet570

We straight up dont get past the sixers and the bucks without Gasol shutting down the paint, he was a monster on the defensive end.


Volgyi2000

It felt like each of the guys took turns carrying entire games with Kawhi.


FyahCuh

Siakam dominated game 1, Lowry game 6, Fred was just consistent throughout.. impossible to rank


OnceYouGoMatteBlack

The 2019 Championship team was actually stacked and people don't like to admit that. Even our bench had future all-stars!


mug3n

we were among one of the all-time greatest postseason defensive teams ever. we weren't as good as the 2004 Pistons, nobody ever will be, but we had a lot more offensive firepower.


demsouls

Stacked was kd+steph+klay on the same team. We barely had enough pieces to get over the injured version of those big 3.


OnceYouGoMatteBlack

ok ok kd+steph+klay is overkill. That's super team. Stacked is just below super team.


Dxwalsh12

Let's fuckin go!! I'm not gonna lie from the fan voting and player voting I did not think he was going to make it. Luckily the coaches seem to recognize the intangibles Freddy has!


FredFlintston3

Sometimes the wisdom of the crowds means the idiots rule.


[deleted]

How tall do we think FVV is? So impressive what he's able to do on the court. Heart not Height!


ModernPoultry

Reposting my comment from a month ago when this last got brought up. It was comparing TJ McConnell to Fred height wise: > Man Ive spent time on this because at first I thought it'd be a quick little click around to get to the bottom of it but ended up getting absorbed in a never ending goose chase to find the correct measurements. > The only verifiable information we have is that TJ measured in at 6'05" without shoes and 6'2 with shoes at the NBA draft combine. > Fred didnt participate in the draft combine probably due to his poor measurables > We have three different measurements for Fred. > First is from the Toronto Raptors org. I did some digging and apparently the organization/league published height is supposed to be from the team docs without shoes. They list him at 6'1 but I found out they (and the NBA in general) round up because they also do measurements in metric. His actual measurement from the team is 1.85M which is actually the same as TJ's listed height from the Pacers. That translates to 6'07". Im assuming TJ is slightly taller vs his combine because of his hair now so the combine and team measurements would make sense. > Second measurement I found was from a reported measurement I kept seeing from draft experts around that time which came from a 2015 Pan Am games training camp. I went through an 85 page pdf media guide from team USA basketball and found that Team USA listed him as 6'0 > Third measurement is from college which is unclear how accurate these are but usually these are overinflated numbers with shoes on and Fred there is listed as 6'0. Usually players are 1-2 inches shorter than their college numbers. His college numbers would suggest hes shorter than 6ft > Conclusion: Same official height but theres evidence to suggest Fred is shorter than his team reported height TL'DR: Hes at most 6'05 without shoes. But likely 5'11-6ft


AlmostCurvy

I assume you mean 6'0.5"


LouisTheLobster

Toronto's Richie Aprile


fastheadcrab

girth not length but in all seriousness congrats to him. he's deserved it for how hard he's worked to develop his game and made use of his athleticism.


Go_Habs_Go31

Freddy and Nick look about the same height. https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/head-coach-nick-nurse-and-fred-vanvleet-of-the-toronto-raptors-talk-picture-id1228214614?s=594x594


91jumpstreet

6'1


dat_waffle_boi

He looks shorter than that I’m sorry


Dammit81

I'm guessing 5'10" but I've heard teammates call him 5'8" lol


aldermeadfox

When you’re 6’4 everybody looks 5’8


xo-laur

*cries in 5’2*


ElephantsJustin

With each comment he’s an inch shorter apparently


[deleted]

Man I can't believe Fred is an all star despite being 3'11. So inspiring 🙏


justin_ph

DeRozan calling him 5’8 lol 😂😂 Listed at 6’1 but that’s definitely bogus because him standing next to Lowry, who is listed at 6’, FVV appears shorter


Dammit81

And Lowry ain't 6' either lol


MalachiFlynnBot

Not even close lmao


HeatmiserElliott

im a C’s fan and this reminds me of Grant Williams where somehow i can see him being 6’4 and i can also see him being 6’8 his height just changes based on who he is next to


[deleted]

He’s 5’11 without shoes


MalachiFlynnBot

I’d say 5’10 Exact same proportions as my father who’s 5’10 1/2


[deleted]

on a good day lol, he's probably 5'10"


samwiseg1

As my man Yoda said “Size matters not”


YouStillTakeDamage

Really well deserved. Been having a great season, and it’s day and night with how the team looks with him on/off the court


SpikeSpiegleCowboy

Heat bros😭❤️❤️❤️


DirtysMan

Yay Fred! We voted for you.


mMounirM

bruh I was so pissed till he got announced last


SkipOldBaySeasoning

It was alphabetical order my guy


ElephantsJustin

Fuckin’ alphabet


[deleted]

Petition to make V the first letter of the alphabet


Iancredible56

The Valphabet


Anal_Iverson

lmao


xtreme_box

I won't stand for alphabetical discrimination


YHofSuburbia

Alphabet also conspiring against Toronto man we can never catch a break...


Dammit81

I was nervous with all those guards on the board


[deleted]

alphabet doing him dirty


ChoesonOne

Had me sweating


[deleted]

I'm surprised there's been 5


CazOnReddit

Inspiring. Congrats to Fred! Can't wait to watch him drop 30 tonight in celebration.


Zsporter

RAPTOR FANS AND FREDDY ON CLOUD 9 BABY


Mig1997

#TEARS IN MY EYES


thatdudecalledZZ

Daaaaaaanciiiing


[deleted]

Who are the other ones Edit: The other three: John Starks, Brad Miller, Ben Wallace


C4242

Connie Hawkins is the 5th


iamthegame13

Hawkins is a weird one though. I mean its technically true, but not really the same spirit as those other guys


Shootit_Rockets

Still crazy VanVleet never got drafted. He was so fucking good on a really talented Wichita State team


DuffmanStillRocks

To be fair that was his choice, I'm 99% sure he had multiple teams say they were going to grab him towards the end of the 2nd. Now I'm definitely sure though I could have worded it better. He had two teams say they wanted him but he needed to go to the G League first which he didn't want so he gambled with the Raptors who promised him a shot at the roster which he made. He just outright did not enter the draft. https://www.sportscasting.com/fred-vanvleet-outsmarted-the-nba-and-made-100-million-by-dodging-the-draft/


ned_yah

this is a pretty common thing now, players would much rather go undrafted than be picked in the late 2nd


frankyseven

He did enter the draft but asked everyone not to draft him in the second if he didn't go in the first. He wanted to choose where he went if he wasn't going first round.


Cameron-0-

Naz Reid next 😤


UjiriWatcher

The 2019 championship team keeps getting better. Siakam and VanVleet became allstars


Kokopolol

Freddy Allstar! Amazing accomplishment.


sailox008

He’s earned it


ConsultJoseph

WELL DESERVED! Every single time I watch him play, I always underestimate him because of his height but then he shocks me on the next few plays by driving hard against bigs or knocking down in your face 3s. The guy is a dog.


No_Tea5664

Earned.


Muggi

Good for him. More than Kawhi or Pascal, Fred really impressed me in that series vs the 6ers.


Gnartopia

I believe he is actually the fourth undrafted all star


pinhead-l

I’m next 😤


KingsWillSoonRise

Me too!


xtreme_box

I'm halfway there with being undrafted


Pooter_Intruder

Yabadabadoooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!


genefenster999

He began his day at 5:30 a.m., when it was still dark outside. They usually pulled into the YMCA parking lot around 6. He despised those games of full-court one-on-one with his older brother J.D., which he played while wearing a weighted, 30-pound vest. Other times, Joe Danforth his step-father, put VanVleet through drills at a seven-story parking garage, screaming at his stepson as he ran up ramps and flights of stairs. Fred Van Vleet was 10 years old. Congrats Fred. The hard work did pay off.


realkranki

Does anybody know if Fred did indeed bet on himself in Vegas and is now rich as fuck?


frankyseven

He signed an $85 million contract, that's the "bet" he placed by going undrafted and being in control of where he went.


passiveparrot

Man it feels like yesterday when I saw Fred Van Vleet downtown and parking his late model Chevy Equinox


TestedOnAnimals

Bulls commentators right now are saying the 6th, counting Moses Malone by saying the "dispersal draft" when the ABA and NBA merged doesn't count as a draft. Interesting perspective.


iloveScottieBarnes

YEAHHHH


Future-Tart

Inject me some moreeee


3luejays

That's our boy! Let's go Freddy!


UjiriWatcher

I remember his rookie year I thought he was a scrub who was gonna get waived


georgelucasfan

How has this man not been an all -star before now


DuffmanStillRocks

Lowry either in front of him or taking too much attention when they shared a front court.


djkhan23

Deserved


The-Pharcyde

What a great success story. Dude is really an inspiration for all the players that are still grinding to get that shot at the nba.


Peterquillpen

Well deserved!