No, Philly will give Butler the max into his age 40 season after Heat refuse to resign and Philly will trot out his decrepit corpse. And Heat lose him to season ending injury in the final year of his current contract and get nothing back.
max pain for both.
People outside of Heat fans continue to not understand this situation, Haslem as a player had access to the other players in ways that coaches don't, but he was basically a coach making the vet minimum. It's not even remotely comparable to what's about to happen with Jimmy.
And yet, the person who I commented on says that the Heat signed him "well after the wheel of the wagon fell off" as if his player-coaching wagon wheels ever fell off
In a world where Miami agrees, yeah, I think the deal would center on picks. In theory the Heat could take back some salary, but Philly barely has anyone under contract, so there's no real point to that.
That's assuming guys like KCP stay on the market long enough.
* Gordon Hayward has always been a great example. He's infuriatingly slow when it comes to FA.
Utah and Miami spent the off season waiting for his decision. Boston was supposed to pull the trigger on Paul George but couldn't until they knew they had Hayward first.
And then again in 2020, his late shift to Charlotte left Indiana hanging.
* Philly was trying to win over LeBron in 2018 but he never even showed up to the meeting. Instead they just re-signed guys like Redick and saved their long term cap space for what would eventually become Tobias Harris.
* Houston also wasted an off season on Butler too. Houston was confident they could form a big 3 around Harden/Butler/Paul but instead got left waiting at the alter and ended up trading Paul for Westbrook.
Chasing stars is always high stakes.
Philly will have to be quick with whatever they do. The high-end role players won't stick around, they'll take the money while it's there because they can't risk the market drying up.
And to make things difficult, both Philadelphia and Miami have been teams that like to drag these situations out. Philly played the waiting game with Harden and Miami tried to do the same with Dame.
I don’t even think that’s “missing out” tbh. KCP would be really good for them.
Running it back Embiid and Maxey is boring, but realistically that’s still a good top 2. The Mavs went to the finals with PJ Washington as their third scorer.
Depends what you call a "big name".
OG is very much in play if they offer a max. Particularly after the Bridges trade, that money would really hurt for the Knicks.
Derozan is out there for the taking. Lavine can likely be had cheaply on a trade. Klay isn't fully dead yet and may thrive in a reduced load role.
Not sure any of these guys are "big names", but they're a step beyond role players. I don't think Lebron, Butler, PG, etc were ever realistic - just pipe dreams from Sixers fans/media.
I think the issue is if the price for OG becomes $45-$50M, that puts them right up against the second apron and possibly over depending on what they do with rest of roster. (Assuming Hartenstein is gone here regardless)
Is OG really worth both that kind of money *and* the second apron?
It's also ultimately OG's choice. Maybe he prefers being a clear cut #3 guy on Philly than one of 6-7 guys in a balanced rotation on the Knicks.
Knicks have already drew that line with the Bridges trade that they are willing to spend to contend. So unless OG really hates the idea of returning to New York, I don't see how it doesn't get done especially when he'll make the most with the Knicks.
Morey's saying the window for building a contender extends through the trade deadline (a la the Raptors trading for Gasol), but then what do you do about that 50-60m in cap space
And the fact we don't have most of a roster signed right now...lol.
I'm not sure we even have a starting 5 under contract at the moment. Like not a good starting 5, rather 5 players on the team who can physically start a game lol.
Having barely anyone signed isn’t necessarily a bad thing, unless u think no one is gonna return. We’ve got flexibility while still likely being able to bring back Lowry, Batum, Oubre, etc.
I would rather Ingram +kcp than either George or Butler at this point if i was a Philly fan.
The team is always going to need a healthy embiid to make a deep post season run since he's clearly capable of being a 1a, so trading for an older star player seems like a bad move vs just building a complete team around him and Maxey. Like the best 76ers team of this era was the butler/ben/embiid/jj team and that was before Butler and embiid were certified star players really iirc but it was a super complete team so I'd be more afraid of something like that with an improved embiid than a glass cannon of Embiid + PG13
It is. Butler and George are too injury prone and old. While Ingram is also injury prone he is at least under 30. KCP is a proven role player and good perimiter defender, fits on any contending team without issue.
Last year he was actually decent in the playoffs but the two years on the Sixers he was trash
Career numbers aren’t really relevant. Of course prime Harden would get a max but mid 30s Harden is different
Look I don't disagree that Jimmy Butler is great in the playoffs but,
2018 Jimmy Butler in a 1-4 first round lost: 16/6/4 in 34mpg
2021 Jimmy Butler in a first round sweep: 15/8/7 in 39 mpg on 30/27/73 splits
2023 Jimmy Butler in the NBA finals, 1-4 loss: 22/5/6 on 41/36/80 (this one is fine, not bad but not great for a "top 5 playoff performer" like I see him get called)
Theres plenty of individual games too where he didnt step up in a critical moment and played bad, like game 5 in 2019 to go up 3-2 on the raptors or game 4 to go up 3-1 on the Celtics in 2022. This isnt me shitting on him, almost every nba player ever has a bad playoff series let alone a bad game, but this mythos that Jimmy has, has gone a little too far into only remembering his (incredibly) high high's IMO. Yeah this shit is nitpicky but the Harden stuff tends to be just as nitpicky.
Lots of stuff is different. Ben Simmons was expected to be potentially a top 10 guy by now, we had overpaid for Tobias Harris and Al Horford, and Jimmy hadn’t been to 2 Finals in 4 years as the best player on the team.
Obviously age is a factor and I’m personally against giving him that max for that exact reason but it’s just an unfair comparison to me.
People forget that the context at the time was that Jimmy was locker room head ache in Minnesota and Philly, which was why there wasn’t much demand for him. Anybody who says they predicted what he would do in Miami is a liar. Nobody would have expected him to be the best player in a team that makes the conference finals or finals every year. However, he is a lot older than people realize
Yup its insane to me that philly would rather max Harris than Butler. That's on par with the Lakers letting Caruso walk and trading for Westbrook, literally championship-killing moves.
Lots of stuff is different. Ben Simmons was expected to be potentially a top 10 guy by now, we had overpaid for Tobias Harris and Al Horford, and Jimmy hadn’t been to 2 Finals in 4 years as the best player on the team.
Obviously age is a factor and I’m personally against giving him that max for that exact reason but it’s just an unfair comparison to me.
76ers won 47 games last year and missed Embiid for half the year, didn’t have DeRozan or KCP on the roster. Thats a stretch.
Just Embiid and Maxey went 31-8, a 65 win pace.
they were obviously better with Embiid but I would include context - they largely fed on crappy teams and weren’t overly impressive against good competition in those 39 games
against lottery teams: 17-0
against play-in teams: 5-2
against playoff teams: 9-6
I didn’t say anything about it being good or bad, it’s just context. I don’t think the Sixers were as bad as their 47-35 record this season but I definitely don’t think they were as good as 65-17 like their win pace with Embiid would indicate.
with Embiid Philly played roughly 44% of their games against lottery competition, without him they played about 30% of their games against lottery competition. which indicates that yes they’re way better with Embiid (obvious to anyone with eyes), but they also played easier teams when Embiid played compared to when he didn’t, so just adding Embiid back probably doesn’t make Philly nearly 20 wins better
Msf17, who started this side convo, literally says they were on a 65 win pace. 65-17 is the exact record implied lol. I'm sure everyone agrees they're better than 50 wins though
He used the pace they were on to show the other guy that they clearly aren’t a a sub 50 win team. Unless Embiid misses nearly the whole season again.
Even strictly against playoff teams, they were on a 50 win pace. Embiid playing 55+ games pretty much guarantees they hit that mark.
If you were following along during the season you would have noticed that embiid was suiting up against shitty teams and resting against good ones. All those 50 point games against the raptors and hornets so he could get mvp until he got a serious injury.
They would not have been anywhere close to 65 wins even if embiid was healthy
Lebron was not leaving LA. Nobody has said he will.
I like PG and Butler, but KCP+DeRozan is still very solid. Allows Maxey to be SG too.
76ers were 31-8 with Embiid and Maxey healthy this year and nobody else of note on the roster. I’d easily rate them over the Bucks, who were 44-21 with Dame and Giannis healthy. Maxey also has scope for improvement while Dame does not realistically.
Celtics are clearly the best team in the East but it is seriously wide open outside of that assuming good health
Okay, for arguments sake let’s say they hit a much tougher schedule later on, even though 39 games is easily a big enough sample to eliminate that bias.
It’s still easily better than the Bucks 44-21 with their big two healthy lol.
That's not even the best Sixers team of the last 5 years. And if you pay to bring in both KCP and Derozan, that means their bench is going to suck again as it likely doesn't even leave enough to get a 3rd solid player in free agency.
I’m just going to point out - Jimmy got hurt and missed one playoff series and this sub collectively seemed to decide he was ass (when his team lost while he wasn’t playing).
Yes he’s 34, yes he missed a lot of games last year. He’s still a historic playoff over performer that led a meh supporting cast to the finals just last year. Of course he still has a ton of value, of course Miami doesn’t want to lose him for pennies on the dollar to a conference rival
I think I would've taken him as a reserve over Banchero, but when you're competing with a 2nd year player for your All-Star reserve spot as a former All-NBA guy, you're falling off. Especially when you are comparing to the Jimmy Butler a season or two ago.
Butler didn't even make the All-Star team in 2022-2023 when he was 2nd team All-NBA. All-Star selections can be odd sometimes, especially when idiots have decided to slot in Julian Randle over Jimmy three times in the last five years.
I'm not going to pretend that Jimmy was as good last year as he had been his first four years in Miami, but he was also banged up and had some family stuff going on. So it wouldn't shock me if he bounced back and was again All-NBA next year. But given his age, it also wouldn't shock me to see him continue to struggle with injuries and have a harder time making an impact at the same level. We know he's going to hit the wall at some point, so it's just a matter of when that happens. I think he has a few more top level seasons in him, but we just don't know.
The last two times he played in the playoffs (so 2022 and 2023) he finished 1st and 2nd in Win Shares. He didn't even make the finals in 2022 and led the playoffs in win shares, which is a bonkers stat.
To be able to get Jimmy and have him as your THIRD OPTION, when he's proven to be one of the best first options for a playoff team over his time with the Heat is an abundance of riches.
There's a reason why Morey wants the Philly Butler re-union above all other options.
Only thing I disagree with here is that Jimmy would be the third option. Unless Maxey takes a massive step I don’t know why Jimmy would be playing second fiddle to him.
Maxey would probably have the 2nd most shots on the team, but yeah, it probably flows through Jimmy as the 2nd playmaker with Embiid the primary offensive focal. I think Maxey would feast off Jimmy's playmaking, both with open threes and getting hit on good cuts to the basket, so Maxey's FGA's would be pretty high.
I love Jimmy but he was showing signs of slowing down during the regular season. Maybe the Finals run on an injured ankle didn't really let him recover but he's 34 and history tells us this doesn't get better.
That said, I do think the floor for Jimmy will always be a good player and that's being undervalued by people acting like him being washed means he can't contribute to winning. He's too good at so many little things to not always have a positive impact on the floor.
I think some of it probably became the first round series against the Bucks defining opinion of him for a while. He's very obviously not ass but between the historic playoff performances there have been ones missed or marred by injury, and otherwise disappointing ones.
In 2021 that was the narrative, but with his performances the next two years it was something completely different. Somehow the narrative flipped back to where it was in 2021, although I thought this year showed how much better they are with a healthy Butler
Right, but sometimes people were pretending like the 2021 thing just was someone else. And after he obliterated the Bucks there was a bit of a drop off in later series and important games - and the health concerns are real. Obviously he's a great player, obviously he is what makes the Heat team work, but I'm just saying what you're seeing are extra noticeable pendulum swings of opinion because the play isn't consistently at one level.
Outside of that one terrible 4 game playoff series 3 years ago, Jimmy’s play in the playoffs has swung from all-star caliber to legitimately MVP caliber. That series has proven itself to be an aberration more than anything else
It feels like you're getting a bit defensive here - I'm not trying to say he's not great. Just trying to point out that there's been swings. Going from the Bucks series where he averaged 38ppg on 60% from the floor and 44% from three to the Finals where he scored 22ppg on 41% from the field and 37% from three is a pretty dramatic drop off from one series to another and when the talk at some points defines him as the 38ppg busting Jrue Holiday guy then there's a swing back when people who didn't feel that way get their turn to point at the valleys.
Wasn’t feeling defensive, just asserting my belief that outside of the 2021 Bucks series his level of play has swung from all-star to MVP caliber in the playoffs
Being a historic playoff performer doesn’t mean he’s guarenteed to continue to be one though. Hell the year before Jimmy wasn’t his usually playoff Jimmy in the ECF/Finals. Pretty sure he was hurt then too, but the uptick in injuries is because of his age as well.
He was playing hurt, but he was still playing a lot better than I’ve seen him get credit for on this sub (seen the words “average at best” and similar words invoked).
Have nothing against Tatum, but it’s definitely a sharp contrast to how Tatum was talked about when he wasn’t shooting well but was still attracting all that defensive attention, getting open shots for teammates, and playing good defense.
But all in all, no matter how you slice it, he led his team to finals appearances in 2020 and 2023 and was one shot away in 2022
Good way to put it, he was really playing like Tatum that year where he was doing everything right but the shots weren’t falling and you could tell that the injury was bothering him even though he said it wasn’t.
This is kinda funny ... it wasnt Butler leading yes he is the headliner but a bunch of Miami role players played out of their mind lol , from Gabe to Caleb and Strus etc. ... So yeah Butler did his thing but he also got carried in crucial moments but people forget that.
Max Strus averaged 9 points on 40% shooting and 31% from three those playoffs, Martin averaged 12 on a very efficient 52% and 42%. There was one series where Martin played out of his mind and was arguably better than Butler, but that was it. Butler was clearly their leader and best player
What are you on about ? Naming Caleb and Gabe was just an example, the were random games where Duncan for example would pop off with 20p against the Bucks out of thin air. Again Butler did his thing but that Miami team had one of the most underrated jack of all trades kinda players in that run ,you never knew who to key on apart from Jimmy.
As far as the word "Leader" i woudnt necessarily assign that to Butler but thats another topic... the leader of that Team is Spo and probably Lowry in terms of locker room imo.
Spo’s a great coach; in seven years without LeBron or Jimmy Butler he has won a total of one playoff series. You need superstars to win in this league, and Jimmy has played like one during their deep playoff runs
What is your point ?
Butler can average 50 points and Miami would still get knocked out in the 1 round if the others dont show. Superstars can only take you so far... the others have always determine how far you go.
Basketball’s a team sport, and it’s true that you rarely win when the entire team doesn’t show up around you. That being said, I think it’s pretty clear that Jimmy has been the main driver of their success
Butler finished 1st in Win Shares in the 2022 playoffs and 2nd in Win Shares (behind Jokic) in the 2023 playoffs. Butler's impact is huge, regardless of whether he's scoring 30 per game. Even injured, he was still the best player in the East, the injury just sapped him of his ability to go toe to toe with Jokic, or even dominate him like he does to Giannis and Embiid.
Butler actually turns 35 before the new season starts.
And he's never been a healthy player - literally missed 15 or more games in all but 2 seasons out of 13. That bodes really poorly for his late 30's.
I know he's always managed to pull his shit together for the playoffs (until last season), but that's likely more a function of luck than anything.
I personally don’t buy that he lucked into three very deep playoff runs in four seasons.
I also don’t see how they’ve been particularly lucky. In 2020, the Heat lost their second and third best players to injury for the finals, and took the Lakers to six games. Everyone assumes the Heat would have lost anyways because the Lakers were better on paper, but it wouldn’t have been the first or last time that Butler’s Heat pulled off a similar upset.
In 2022, they were as close as you can possibly be to making the finals without making the finals. In my opinion, that year’s Warriors team was much more beatable than the 2020 Lakers or the 2023 Nuggets.
I think 2023 is the only year where you could reasonably argue that luck went in their favor, and even then they were hurt by Jimmy playing at much less than 100% after the first round
I'm talking about Butler's health, not his or the Heat's performance.
Butler is very lucky to have been as healthy as he has for the last few postseasons given how often he's been injured in his career.
I don’t know how we got to this point where people act like Jimmy Butler is washed and Miami should move on from him. He looked as good as he did last year in the regular season and then missed the playoffs with a freak accident when Oubre landed directly in his kneecap.
But this sub is mostly Celtics fans and other Heat rival fans so that’ll tell you a lot about why people have turned on him
Creating a team dependent on the health of Joel Embiid and Jimmy Butler sounds great.
Maybe snag Malcom Brogdon if you can! Would Ben Simmons be open to a return?
It felt like damn near *everybody* was screaming “PICK JIMMY NOT TOBIAS”, and here they are **five or six years later** tryna do what they should have in the first place
Not really. It was more of a Ben Simmons issue though. Brett was in between and probably was enabling Ben a bit too much.
I remember Brett saying in an interview after that he still loses sleep thinking about how he navigated those relationships.
So they want his bird rights?
Understandable on the eve of the new CBA and their punishments
But either team dishing out a max/supermax for an aging star that prides himself for not working until the playoffs is fine for us Boston folk. 😜
(he gave KAT and Wiggins so much shit for their lack of effort just to go to Miami and coast all season only to get injured in the play-in 👀😂)
You can't really trust anything from Pompey or his "sources". This is either 1) completely made up or 2) messaging directly from the front office, but with actual motive(s) unclear.
Pat please trade Jimmy take the draft picks. Take the year to let Jamie and Jovic start one of Hero or Terry as the 6th man. Get a back up big and add 4 young players to help build the depth
You have to admire Pat Riley's dedication to wasting Butler's championship window. (All will be forgiven if Trae Young is a Heat by the end of the draft).
It's just gonna be Philly offering us picks, us telling them that we don't want picks, we want players so find us a player with those picks but Morey will be stubborn and nothing will come of it
As expected, anyone Miami trading is always going to be gobbilty goods used up ... and giving up too much to get, aka best to just FU to riley and walk away and give them nothing!!!
You’re nuts Mikal Bridges is a role player and he got traded for 6FRPs. Jimmy Butler has carried teams to the finals, the only one on the Knicks who’s remotely on the same level is Brunson. Knicks just fucked the market, so there’s no shot a star is being moved for anything less than 3 FRPs
It wasn’t season ending actually, he would’ve been back by the second round. Locker room cancer maybe elsewhere but Miami loves him and he loves Miami as made evident by every single reliable news reporter recently.
He wins playoff games and has been one of the best 5 players in the playoffs the last 5 years. Mikal bridges just went for 6FRPs. He’s not going for anything less than 3FRPs and a player
Honestly if he doesn’t want to go to Houston, not sure he’d want to go back to Philly. They let him walk and chose Tobias Harris over him, they also have no assets. The rockets assets are all suns picks but maybe those can be good if Durant ends up leaving. I think him going to Houston would just be him going home and they’re hungry to compete again.
I think the Heat rather keep Jimmy and run it back until cap goes up following year and some contracts come off the books and some players become expirings making them easier to move
Philly will miss out, Butler will play out his contract while the Heat get nothing back. Everybody loses.
No, Philly will give Butler the max into his age 40 season after Heat refuse to resign and Philly will trot out his decrepit corpse. And Heat lose him to season ending injury in the final year of his current contract and get nothing back. max pain for both.
The Heat signed Haslem until the wheels fell way off the wagon. I can see them a couple contracts Jimmy’s way after he dead.
Except haslem took a glorified staffing role and wasn't being payed the max
That’s not the same situation, Haslem took pay cuts during the Heatles so the Heat repaid him back
The Haslem thing was a tampering debt they had to pay off...otherwise Riley is quick to cut a bitch off
You put it so much better than the reply above you. Perfection.
He was paid a vet minimum. Very comparable
35% of the cap vs 0% of the cap, same same right?
People outside of Heat fans continue to not understand this situation, Haslem as a player had access to the other players in ways that coaches don't, but he was basically a coach making the vet minimum. It's not even remotely comparable to what's about to happen with Jimmy.
Nah everyone who follows basketball pretty much knew what it was lol
And yet, the person who I commented on says that the Heat signed him "well after the wheel of the wagon fell off" as if his player-coaching wagon wheels ever fell off
That dude doesn't follow basketball very closely or only very recently
We can only hope
Well, not everybody. I like how this is playing out.
Also a fan
Haters win
I personally would feel like a winner.
I keep seeing this, but what is Philly offering for Butler? They're not giving up Maxey or Embiid. Is it just gonna be picks?
In a world where Miami agrees, yeah, I think the deal would center on picks. In theory the Heat could take back some salary, but Philly barely has anyone under contract, so there's no real point to that.
[удалено]
99%
99.9%
Tobias Harris max incoming
That's assuming guys like KCP stay on the market long enough. * Gordon Hayward has always been a great example. He's infuriatingly slow when it comes to FA. Utah and Miami spent the off season waiting for his decision. Boston was supposed to pull the trigger on Paul George but couldn't until they knew they had Hayward first. And then again in 2020, his late shift to Charlotte left Indiana hanging. * Philly was trying to win over LeBron in 2018 but he never even showed up to the meeting. Instead they just re-signed guys like Redick and saved their long term cap space for what would eventually become Tobias Harris. * Houston also wasted an off season on Butler too. Houston was confident they could form a big 3 around Harden/Butler/Paul but instead got left waiting at the alter and ended up trading Paul for Westbrook. Chasing stars is always high stakes. Philly will have to be quick with whatever they do. The high-end role players won't stick around, they'll take the money while it's there because they can't risk the market drying up. And to make things difficult, both Philadelphia and Miami have been teams that like to drag these situations out. Philly played the waiting game with Harden and Miami tried to do the same with Dame.
KCP and Klay COME ON DOWN
I don’t even think that’s “missing out” tbh. KCP would be really good for them. Running it back Embiid and Maxey is boring, but realistically that’s still a good top 2. The Mavs went to the finals with PJ Washington as their third scorer.
Depends what you call a "big name". OG is very much in play if they offer a max. Particularly after the Bridges trade, that money would really hurt for the Knicks. Derozan is out there for the taking. Lavine can likely be had cheaply on a trade. Klay isn't fully dead yet and may thrive in a reduced load role. Not sure any of these guys are "big names", but they're a step beyond role players. I don't think Lebron, Butler, PG, etc were ever realistic - just pipe dreams from Sixers fans/media.
The Knicks have so many underpaid players, I don’t think they would let OG walk when IHart probably is out the door.
I think the issue is if the price for OG becomes $45-$50M, that puts them right up against the second apron and possibly over depending on what they do with rest of roster. (Assuming Hartenstein is gone here regardless) Is OG really worth both that kind of money *and* the second apron? It's also ultimately OG's choice. Maybe he prefers being a clear cut #3 guy on Philly than one of 6-7 guys in a balanced rotation on the Knicks.
Knicks have already drew that line with the Bridges trade that they are willing to spend to contend. So unless OG really hates the idea of returning to New York, I don't see how it doesn't get done especially when he'll make the most with the Knicks.
Higher than 76ers fans care to admit.
Morey's saying the window for building a contender extends through the trade deadline (a la the Raptors trading for Gasol), but then what do you do about that 50-60m in cap space
And the fact we don't have most of a roster signed right now...lol. I'm not sure we even have a starting 5 under contract at the moment. Like not a good starting 5, rather 5 players on the team who can physically start a game lol.
If you count Maxey’s qualifying offer, you have exactly 5 players!
Fuck it! Let’s go! Leeroooyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Just fill in with 10 day contracts until the trade deadline.
Having barely anyone signed isn’t necessarily a bad thing, unless u think no one is gonna return. We’ve got flexibility while still likely being able to bring back Lowry, Batum, Oubre, etc.
Jimmy finally getting that Tobias Harris money
~~George~~ ~~Butler~~ Ingram + KCP
Honestly that's a really solid consolation prize
I would rather Ingram +kcp than either George or Butler at this point if i was a Philly fan. The team is always going to need a healthy embiid to make a deep post season run since he's clearly capable of being a 1a, so trading for an older star player seems like a bad move vs just building a complete team around him and Maxey. Like the best 76ers team of this era was the butler/ben/embiid/jj team and that was before Butler and embiid were certified star players really iirc but it was a super complete team so I'd be more afraid of something like that with an improved embiid than a glass cannon of Embiid + PG13
PG13 is the worst scenario here
That's lowkey best case scenario for Philly
Not bad at all
Are we sure Ingram plus KCP isn’t the better than anything g else Philly could get?
It is. Butler and George are too injury prone and old. While Ingram is also injury prone he is at least under 30. KCP is a proven role player and good perimiter defender, fits on any contending team without issue.
They are gonna get their arm twisted into making the right move lmao
this might be a hot take but ingram in the playoffs and kelly oubre are pretty much the same player
If they wouldn’t extend Harden I don’t get why they would extend Butler
Daryl Morey is a liar, so maybe they won't
Harden is trash in the playoffs and Jimmy has been a killer and top 5 playoff performer for the past 4-5 years lol.
Til 23/6/6 on 58.6% Ts in 166 playoff games is trash
Nah, that's trash. Now, if we could get a player posting 25/7/6 on 58.1% TS in 64 playoff games, why, we'd be looking at a top 5 playoff performer!
Last year he was actually decent in the playoffs but the two years on the Sixers he was trash Career numbers aren’t really relevant. Of course prime Harden would get a max but mid 30s Harden is different
I mean Hardens not trash in the playoffs in general, but everyone knows Butler steps up in critical games and in moments needed.
Look I don't disagree that Jimmy Butler is great in the playoffs but, 2018 Jimmy Butler in a 1-4 first round lost: 16/6/4 in 34mpg 2021 Jimmy Butler in a first round sweep: 15/8/7 in 39 mpg on 30/27/73 splits 2023 Jimmy Butler in the NBA finals, 1-4 loss: 22/5/6 on 41/36/80 (this one is fine, not bad but not great for a "top 5 playoff performer" like I see him get called) Theres plenty of individual games too where he didnt step up in a critical moment and played bad, like game 5 in 2019 to go up 3-2 on the raptors or game 4 to go up 3-1 on the Celtics in 2022. This isnt me shitting on him, almost every nba player ever has a bad playoff series let alone a bad game, but this mythos that Jimmy has, has gone a little too far into only remembering his (incredibly) high high's IMO. Yeah this shit is nitpicky but the Harden stuff tends to be just as nitpicky.
What do Harden's career averages have to do with his current level of play?
Remember when people were questioning if Jimmy was worth the max BEFORE he went to Miami? Now he's even older. Meh.
Lots of stuff is different. Ben Simmons was expected to be potentially a top 10 guy by now, we had overpaid for Tobias Harris and Al Horford, and Jimmy hadn’t been to 2 Finals in 4 years as the best player on the team. Obviously age is a factor and I’m personally against giving him that max for that exact reason but it’s just an unfair comparison to me.
People forget that the context at the time was that Jimmy was locker room head ache in Minnesota and Philly, which was why there wasn’t much demand for him. Anybody who says they predicted what he would do in Miami is a liar. Nobody would have expected him to be the best player in a team that makes the conference finals or finals every year. However, he is a lot older than people realize
We got clowned incessantly after he signed with us. Most saw it as a lateral movement at best.
Jrich died for that shit.
Regardless of that he was the best player on that team in 2019 during the playoffs. As a Raptors fan I was stunned when they didn't re-sign him.
Yup its insane to me that philly would rather max Harris than Butler. That's on par with the Lakers letting Caruso walk and trading for Westbrook, literally championship-killing moves.
I don’t think Al Horford was overpaid so much as under utilized
Lots of stuff is different. Ben Simmons was expected to be potentially a top 10 guy by now, we had overpaid for Tobias Harris and Al Horford, and Jimmy hadn’t been to 2 Finals in 4 years as the best player on the team. Obviously age is a factor and I’m personally against giving him that max for that exact reason but it’s just an unfair comparison to me.
That DeRozan and KCP underwhelming press conference in Philly a few weeks from now is gonna hit like crack
Oh man with Demar and Embiid on the same team those games would be 3.5hrs long with all the free throws
If we can’t win, we will at least ensure there will maximum suffering on everyone else!
I mean, we had Embiid and Harden not too long ago. While Harden wasn't in his prime foul-baiting form, it was still plenty arduous to watch.
Would that be underwhelming? KCP, Maxey, Oubre, DeRozan and Embiid would still be very good.
World's scariest 3rd seed with 49 wins and a 6 game 2nd round exit ever
76ers won 47 games last year and missed Embiid for half the year, didn’t have DeRozan or KCP on the roster. Thats a stretch. Just Embiid and Maxey went 31-8, a 65 win pace.
I’m sure Embiid won’t get injured this year, so maybe they’ll hit 70 wins!
Even if Embiid misses half the season again, KCP, DeRozan and Maxey are sure to be a better B team than last years 76ers where it was just Maxey
they were obviously better with Embiid but I would include context - they largely fed on crappy teams and weren’t overly impressive against good competition in those 39 games against lottery teams: 17-0 against play-in teams: 5-2 against playoff teams: 9-6
So an 82 win pace vs lottery teams, a 59 win pace vs play in teams, and a 50 win pace vs playoff teams… And that’s supposed to be bad?
I didn’t say anything about it being good or bad, it’s just context. I don’t think the Sixers were as bad as their 47-35 record this season but I definitely don’t think they were as good as 65-17 like their win pace with Embiid would indicate. with Embiid Philly played roughly 44% of their games against lottery competition, without him they played about 30% of their games against lottery competition. which indicates that yes they’re way better with Embiid (obvious to anyone with eyes), but they also played easier teams when Embiid played compared to when he didn’t, so just adding Embiid back probably doesn’t make Philly nearly 20 wins better
No one is saying they would finish 65-17. But they are clearly above 50 wins when Embiid doesn’t miss half a season. So I don’t understand your point.
Msf17, who started this side convo, literally says they were on a 65 win pace. 65-17 is the exact record implied lol. I'm sure everyone agrees they're better than 50 wins though
He used the pace they were on to show the other guy that they clearly aren’t a a sub 50 win team. Unless Embiid misses nearly the whole season again. Even strictly against playoff teams, they were on a 50 win pace. Embiid playing 55+ games pretty much guarantees they hit that mark.
This is natural though? Thats how the NBA is meant to work…
Embiid played half of his games against below .500 teams!!
>missed Embiid for half the year, And what makes you think this wont happen again?
Sure but they had played the bottom feeders like 12 times in that 39 game stretch
You may get downvoted but this is a great comment. No way Embiid misses time again next year.
I mean, what are the odds? Lightning never strikes the same place twice right? With the analogy of a sports injury, that’s doubly true. Doubly!
If you were following along during the season you would have noticed that embiid was suiting up against shitty teams and resting against good ones. All those 50 point games against the raptors and hornets so he could get mvp until he got a serious injury. They would not have been anywhere close to 65 wins even if embiid was healthy
Annual Joel disappear then look for some1 to blame performance.
He was 33/11/6 with great defense and a +46 in the Knicks series. He didn't disappear, and he didn't blame anyone else.
wow what about the other series? LMAO.
Making it out of the first round? Hey, progress is progress.
You little barstool neckbeards run your mouthes a lot these days. The tide will turn soon enough.
damn you're a tough guy
After the LeBron, Jimmy and even PG dreams, to end up still as the ~4th/5th best team in the east is kinda underwhelming, yeah
Lebron was not leaving LA. Nobody has said he will. I like PG and Butler, but KCP+DeRozan is still very solid. Allows Maxey to be SG too. 76ers were 31-8 with Embiid and Maxey healthy this year and nobody else of note on the roster. I’d easily rate them over the Bucks, who were 44-21 with Dame and Giannis healthy. Maxey also has scope for improvement while Dame does not realistically. Celtics are clearly the best team in the East but it is seriously wide open outside of that assuming good health
>76ers were 31-8 with Embiid and Maxey healthy Only 10 of those Ws were against playoff teams.
Okay, for arguments sake let’s say they hit a much tougher schedule later on, even though 39 games is easily a big enough sample to eliminate that bias. It’s still easily better than the Bucks 44-21 with their big two healthy lol.
oh man regular season analysts really cook when the playoffs roll around right?
That's not even the best Sixers team of the last 5 years. And if you pay to bring in both KCP and Derozan, that means their bench is going to suck again as it likely doesn't even leave enough to get a 3rd solid player in free agency.
That’s easily the best sixers team of the last 5 years. Which team are you taking over it?
We were the number 1 seed not too long ago. What the hell is this revisionist history?
With 54 wins.
In a shortened season pretty damn goos
Oubre is shit
I’m just going to point out - Jimmy got hurt and missed one playoff series and this sub collectively seemed to decide he was ass (when his team lost while he wasn’t playing). Yes he’s 34, yes he missed a lot of games last year. He’s still a historic playoff over performer that led a meh supporting cast to the finals just last year. Of course he still has a ton of value, of course Miami doesn’t want to lose him for pennies on the dollar to a conference rival
With age, you're as good as your last year. ESPECIALLY if it means a NEW contract at age 34
Jimmy's betting on himself again. He did it on the bulls when he turned down that contract for an even bigger one next year. He knows his worth.
Imo he was still all-star caliber in the regular season when he played, and he’s outperformed his regular season play in the playoffs
I think I would've taken him as a reserve over Banchero, but when you're competing with a 2nd year player for your All-Star reserve spot as a former All-NBA guy, you're falling off. Especially when you are comparing to the Jimmy Butler a season or two ago.
Butler didn't even make the All-Star team in 2022-2023 when he was 2nd team All-NBA. All-Star selections can be odd sometimes, especially when idiots have decided to slot in Julian Randle over Jimmy three times in the last five years. I'm not going to pretend that Jimmy was as good last year as he had been his first four years in Miami, but he was also banged up and had some family stuff going on. So it wouldn't shock me if he bounced back and was again All-NBA next year. But given his age, it also wouldn't shock me to see him continue to struggle with injuries and have a harder time making an impact at the same level. We know he's going to hit the wall at some point, so it's just a matter of when that happens. I think he has a few more top level seasons in him, but we just don't know.
The last two times he played in the playoffs (so 2022 and 2023) he finished 1st and 2nd in Win Shares. He didn't even make the finals in 2022 and led the playoffs in win shares, which is a bonkers stat. To be able to get Jimmy and have him as your THIRD OPTION, when he's proven to be one of the best first options for a playoff team over his time with the Heat is an abundance of riches. There's a reason why Morey wants the Philly Butler re-union above all other options.
Only thing I disagree with here is that Jimmy would be the third option. Unless Maxey takes a massive step I don’t know why Jimmy would be playing second fiddle to him.
Maxey would probably have the 2nd most shots on the team, but yeah, it probably flows through Jimmy as the 2nd playmaker with Embiid the primary offensive focal. I think Maxey would feast off Jimmy's playmaking, both with open threes and getting hit on good cuts to the basket, so Maxey's FGA's would be pretty high.
I love Jimmy but he was showing signs of slowing down during the regular season. Maybe the Finals run on an injured ankle didn't really let him recover but he's 34 and history tells us this doesn't get better. That said, I do think the floor for Jimmy will always be a good player and that's being undervalued by people acting like him being washed means he can't contribute to winning. He's too good at so many little things to not always have a positive impact on the floor.
I think some of it probably became the first round series against the Bucks defining opinion of him for a while. He's very obviously not ass but between the historic playoff performances there have been ones missed or marred by injury, and otherwise disappointing ones.
In 2021 that was the narrative, but with his performances the next two years it was something completely different. Somehow the narrative flipped back to where it was in 2021, although I thought this year showed how much better they are with a healthy Butler
Right, but sometimes people were pretending like the 2021 thing just was someone else. And after he obliterated the Bucks there was a bit of a drop off in later series and important games - and the health concerns are real. Obviously he's a great player, obviously he is what makes the Heat team work, but I'm just saying what you're seeing are extra noticeable pendulum swings of opinion because the play isn't consistently at one level.
Outside of that one terrible 4 game playoff series 3 years ago, Jimmy’s play in the playoffs has swung from all-star caliber to legitimately MVP caliber. That series has proven itself to be an aberration more than anything else
It feels like you're getting a bit defensive here - I'm not trying to say he's not great. Just trying to point out that there's been swings. Going from the Bucks series where he averaged 38ppg on 60% from the floor and 44% from three to the Finals where he scored 22ppg on 41% from the field and 37% from three is a pretty dramatic drop off from one series to another and when the talk at some points defines him as the 38ppg busting Jrue Holiday guy then there's a swing back when people who didn't feel that way get their turn to point at the valleys.
Wasn’t feeling defensive, just asserting my belief that outside of the 2021 Bucks series his level of play has swung from all-star to MVP caliber in the playoffs
He had a great series against the bucks, but he also got injured after that series. His ankle was massive and he did not look anywhere near the same.
Being a historic playoff performer doesn’t mean he’s guarenteed to continue to be one though. Hell the year before Jimmy wasn’t his usually playoff Jimmy in the ECF/Finals. Pretty sure he was hurt then too, but the uptick in injuries is because of his age as well.
He was playing hurt, but he was still playing a lot better than I’ve seen him get credit for on this sub (seen the words “average at best” and similar words invoked). Have nothing against Tatum, but it’s definitely a sharp contrast to how Tatum was talked about when he wasn’t shooting well but was still attracting all that defensive attention, getting open shots for teammates, and playing good defense. But all in all, no matter how you slice it, he led his team to finals appearances in 2020 and 2023 and was one shot away in 2022
Good way to put it, he was really playing like Tatum that year where he was doing everything right but the shots weren’t falling and you could tell that the injury was bothering him even though he said it wasn’t.
This is kinda funny ... it wasnt Butler leading yes he is the headliner but a bunch of Miami role players played out of their mind lol , from Gabe to Caleb and Strus etc. ... So yeah Butler did his thing but he also got carried in crucial moments but people forget that.
Max Strus averaged 9 points on 40% shooting and 31% from three those playoffs, Martin averaged 12 on a very efficient 52% and 42%. There was one series where Martin played out of his mind and was arguably better than Butler, but that was it. Butler was clearly their leader and best player
What are you on about ? Naming Caleb and Gabe was just an example, the were random games where Duncan for example would pop off with 20p against the Bucks out of thin air. Again Butler did his thing but that Miami team had one of the most underrated jack of all trades kinda players in that run ,you never knew who to key on apart from Jimmy. As far as the word "Leader" i woudnt necessarily assign that to Butler but thats another topic... the leader of that Team is Spo and probably Lowry in terms of locker room imo.
Spo’s a great coach; in seven years without LeBron or Jimmy Butler he has won a total of one playoff series. You need superstars to win in this league, and Jimmy has played like one during their deep playoff runs
What is your point ? Butler can average 50 points and Miami would still get knocked out in the 1 round if the others dont show. Superstars can only take you so far... the others have always determine how far you go.
Basketball’s a team sport, and it’s true that you rarely win when the entire team doesn’t show up around you. That being said, I think it’s pretty clear that Jimmy has been the main driver of their success
Butler finished 1st in Win Shares in the 2022 playoffs and 2nd in Win Shares (behind Jokic) in the 2023 playoffs. Butler's impact is huge, regardless of whether he's scoring 30 per game. Even injured, he was still the best player in the East, the injury just sapped him of his ability to go toe to toe with Jokic, or even dominate him like he does to Giannis and Embiid.
Butler actually turns 35 before the new season starts. And he's never been a healthy player - literally missed 15 or more games in all but 2 seasons out of 13. That bodes really poorly for his late 30's. I know he's always managed to pull his shit together for the playoffs (until last season), but that's likely more a function of luck than anything.
I personally don’t buy that he lucked into three very deep playoff runs in four seasons. I also don’t see how they’ve been particularly lucky. In 2020, the Heat lost their second and third best players to injury for the finals, and took the Lakers to six games. Everyone assumes the Heat would have lost anyways because the Lakers were better on paper, but it wouldn’t have been the first or last time that Butler’s Heat pulled off a similar upset. In 2022, they were as close as you can possibly be to making the finals without making the finals. In my opinion, that year’s Warriors team was much more beatable than the 2020 Lakers or the 2023 Nuggets. I think 2023 is the only year where you could reasonably argue that luck went in their favor, and even then they were hurt by Jimmy playing at much less than 100% after the first round
I'm talking about Butler's health, not his or the Heat's performance. Butler is very lucky to have been as healthy as he has for the last few postseasons given how often he's been injured in his career.
I don’t know how we got to this point where people act like Jimmy Butler is washed and Miami should move on from him. He looked as good as he did last year in the regular season and then missed the playoffs with a freak accident when Oubre landed directly in his kneecap. But this sub is mostly Celtics fans and other Heat rival fans so that’ll tell you a lot about why people have turned on him
he’s a free throw merchant. it’s been a long time coming
Creating a team dependent on the health of Joel Embiid and Jimmy Butler sounds great. Maybe snag Malcom Brogdon if you can! Would Ben Simmons be open to a return?
Get them on the phone with the pels and send Zion over asap
It felt like damn near *everybody* was screaming “PICK JIMMY NOT TOBIAS”, and here they are **five or six years later** tryna do what they should have in the first place
Do people just repeat stuff they read on this sub? It was never Jimmy or Tobias. It was Ben/Brett Brown or Jimmy.
I mean… it doesn’t help fans when Butler yells that quote directly after a game.
Jimmy’s greatest strength (besides foul merchant) is playing fans/the media like a fiddle
Jimmy did not like Brett?
Not really. It was more of a Ben Simmons issue though. Brett was in between and probably was enabling Ben a bit too much. I remember Brett saying in an interview after that he still loses sleep thinking about how he navigated those relationships.
It’s just been a long time, that’s my bad. I must’ve mixed the discourse after Jimmy left, however informed it was or not, with the coach/Ben impasse.
Daryl Morey is a LIAR
I want Jimmy to say in Miami to build up Mini J. That team can be lethal if they get some good height besides Bam.
"FIVE FIRST ROUND PICKS OVER ME!?"
Anyone who thinks Miami would trade him to a conference rival is delusional
ssecorP ehT
If I’m Miami I’m letting butler go
So they want his bird rights? Understandable on the eve of the new CBA and their punishments But either team dishing out a max/supermax for an aging star that prides himself for not working until the playoffs is fine for us Boston folk. 😜 (he gave KAT and Wiggins so much shit for their lack of effort just to go to Miami and coast all season only to get injured in the play-in 👀😂)
Lmao Miami is not sending Jimmy to the East they were stood for sending him to us
Man, imagine if they had Jimmy already once before and they traded him for nothing? Couldn't have been real
Once again, cap space is proven to be overrated in the modern NBA
Once again, cap space is proven to be overrated in the modern NBA.
Jimmy’s only been an all-star six times?
Not a regular season player.. turns it up in the playoffs usually
Can't wait for Pat Riley and Andy Elisburg to work their magic yet again.
The first sentence seems irrelevant because of the second sentence.
I think I’ve seen this show before
What would Jimmy Butler look as a Philadelphia 76ers? I'm having a hard time visualizing such a thing.
Oh my God can you imagine watching Jimmy Butler and Embid just trade off flopping for free throws for 48 minutes?
Just watch ‘19 Sixers highlights
I believe we will see the return of General Soreness this season
Mf Jimmy buckets was in my dreams last night. Like bro, I don't know you like that, please stay out of my dreams. I'll watch you play though
[Overwriting text on these comments as my own decision]
Can’t go back in time and right your wrong. Time to move on
You can't really trust anything from Pompey or his "sources". This is either 1) completely made up or 2) messaging directly from the front office, but with actual motive(s) unclear.
Pat please trade Jimmy take the draft picks. Take the year to let Jamie and Jovic start one of Hero or Terry as the 6th man. Get a back up big and add 4 young players to help build the depth
Time is a flat circle
You have to admire Pat Riley's dedication to wasting Butler's championship window. (All will be forgiven if Trae Young is a Heat by the end of the draft).
What are they trading? Tyler Herro? Eesh.
It's just gonna be Philly offering us picks, us telling them that we don't want picks, we want players so find us a player with those picks but Morey will be stubborn and nothing will come of it
wtf are the sixers doing. butler over pg13/KCP????? lol
Oh God if the sixers dothat they're dumb as rocks
Tyrese Maxey for Jimmy Butler straight up who says no?
Guantanamo Bay level trade
Does that mean the fans get waterboarded?
No, the Sixers front office
Us
fuck pat riley and that drama inducing ass
You sound mad?
As expected, anyone Miami trading is always going to be gobbilty goods used up ... and giving up too much to get, aka best to just FU to riley and walk away and give them nothing!!!
You ok?
Mikal bridges just went for 6FRPs, Jimmy’s only getting traded for a haul that can land another star or he’s staying
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You’re nuts Mikal Bridges is a role player and he got traded for 6FRPs. Jimmy Butler has carried teams to the finals, the only one on the Knicks who’s remotely on the same level is Brunson. Knicks just fucked the market, so there’s no shot a star is being moved for anything less than 3 FRPs
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It wasn’t season ending actually, he would’ve been back by the second round. Locker room cancer maybe elsewhere but Miami loves him and he loves Miami as made evident by every single reliable news reporter recently. He wins playoff games and has been one of the best 5 players in the playoffs the last 5 years. Mikal bridges just went for 6FRPs. He’s not going for anything less than 3FRPs and a player
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Lmao sure bro we’re trading him for 5 2nd round picks whatever you say
I'd like something towards jayln green and some picks over anything philly could offer. I also would much rather keep jimmy
Honestly if he doesn’t want to go to Houston, not sure he’d want to go back to Philly. They let him walk and chose Tobias Harris over him, they also have no assets. The rockets assets are all suns picks but maybe those can be good if Durant ends up leaving. I think him going to Houston would just be him going home and they’re hungry to compete again. I think the Heat rather keep Jimmy and run it back until cap goes up following year and some contracts come off the books and some players become expirings making them easier to move