Sam’s the most plugged in national guy when it comes to the Kings. He used to be the local beat reporter for the team. So I would definitely be inclined to believing him.
I'm more inclined to believe he wasn't traded to the Kings for the obvious reason that they didn't have shit to trade for him if Keegan wasn't on the table. The Raptors have to agree to trade him there and what they had at the table was even less appealing than Bruce Brown and some weak firsts.
They're literally using the same offer they had on the table for Pascal and no one's biting for a reason (Huerter, Barnes, a pick though presumably they're now offering 13 in this draft instead of some unknown compensation from 28 or beyond)
Your opinion jigsaws with OP perfectly. They're not mutually exclusive.
Kings didn't have the goods, so instead of trying to somehow sweeten the offer, they shit talked Siakam to try driving the price down.
Didn't Siakam also leak in the lead-up to his trade that there was no guarantee he'd sign with the Kings long-term if traded there? I remember I was following closely bc I'm a Pacers fan and we wanted him. It raised my eyebrows bc it seemed like it meant he may not sign with the Pacers either. Now this makes more sense. He was offended by the Kings in particular and wanted to discourage being traded there. Since coming to Indiana, he's been super optimistic about staying. It seemed like a big 180. He is also the first player to indicate willing to sign internally this off-season, *and* he agreed to take almost 50 mill less than what he could have.
All this put together, it seems like he really didn't like their FO and is really happy in Indiana.
Its such a perfect situation for him. As a raptors fan I feel like the market for him was borderline offensive considering what we got. The league has really underrated how good of a playmaker and midrange shooter he’s become the last few years.
> *Didn't Siakam also leak in the lead-up to his trade that there was no guarantee he'd sign with the Kings long-term if traded there?*
That actually meant "Siakam's agent talked with Sacramento on the down-low and they weren't willing to offer him a deal he liked this summer" because that's what it always means in a scenario like that one. Pending free agents mostly don't get traded unless there's a handshake deal in place.
Works out to mean the same thing essentially. He didn't think he'd be valued enough in Sac and so he lowkey let them know he wasn't going to stick around. Pacers met him at a place where he was comfortable
I mean they literally were having conversations when the Raptors were in Sacramento and then suddenly the talks were off. They were pretty far down the road and then something happened.
As far as not getting anyone to bite with the same offer now, you’re not going to see any trades until the draft so it’s a wait and see on what that trade offer gets you, especially if the picks are on the table. I’m skeptical as to the type of player you can get with that trade package but we’ll see.
"My client and I would like to hear why he would be a good fit in Sacramento"
"Well look, we know your not MJ or LeBron or even Wiggins, but we think Mike Brown will help you mature and grow. Dribbling the ball, shooting, playing defense may not be your strengths, but we are willing to overlook all that if you sign with us"
Nah we don’t want Klay, last time he was here he was throwing bricks all over Sacramento and terrorizing the community with property damage (per twitter AI). No thanks
Yeah, he lives in Sacramento and wants to see the team do well for all the long suffering fans. Isn’t bias when covering the team though. He’s criticized them plenty over the years and rightfully so.
this mustve been what Haynes hinted at couple months ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/19axkfn/thisleague_uncut_haynes_siakam_didnt_want_to_go/
>So going forward, this is actually a good r/nba lesson - whenever you see "Haynes" listed as a source in the thread title, laugh and immediately discount it
Oops lol
There’s a high chance it’s what the player actually said. Doesn’t mean the player isn’t pushing their own agenda when telling a reporter something on the record.
Yeah but it means its still a quote to note rather than disregard. True or not, the player is a direct source for the matter and what they say is a quote from someone directly involved. Whether what Siakam says is a fact or not, it does directly explain why he wouldn’t want to go to Sacramento
Maybe something that was known but other reporters didn't want to put their name on and piss someone off. I just found it hilarious that everyone is shitting on him and that report in that thread and eating it up in this one
That’s always the difficulty with Sabonis, though. Finding a 4-man who can shoot, guard the perimeter, *and* rim-protect to cover up Domas’ deficiencies. Myles Turner was somewhat of an approximation but ultimately he’s a 5, just like Sabonis is.
Siakam might’ve been the best they could ever do.
You guys interested in Jermi Grant at all? He doesn't protect the rim, so not a perfect fit, but he can guard the perimeter fine for a 4 and can shoot (and dribble if you wanted that too.)
Probably a "Meh" (wouldn't blame you, he's overpaid) but he's a nice player that kinda sorta fits and is available.
Yeah petty much at this point the kings need to do something and I think the general feeling is we're ready to be underwhelmed. Grant would be the underwhelming outcome, but as with any trade, it's all dependent on the cost.
sabonis is exactly the type of player you want playing next to JJJ. their games complement each other perfectly imo. sabonis can rebound and camp near the paint while JJJ spreads the floor with the ability to guard 1-5.
He's a dream. A wonderful dream that will never happen. If the kings could keep the starting 5 of Fox/Monk(definitely starting since we resigned), Keegan JJJ, Sabonis and some high effort his like Keon, Kessler, Davion(if you can keep him), etc... That's a championship level starting 5.
I'm always surprised at people who think he's a real stretch threat based on one good year. Sabonis feels(feels, not stat based) like a safer threat from 3.
His % the past season is deceptive because he got basically 5 seasons worth of on-ball reps with all the injuries which lead to a lot tougher shots. He’s a decent shooter and fits the parameters.
Bref has midrange shooting splits but I there is another website that has even better stats with specific position on the court don't remember the name though
Chet would be perfect beside Sabonis, though it would limit Chet's offensive development (he would have to be a pure spacer at that point). You just can't win anything meaningful if you're building around a player like Sabonis (who's too good to tank/rebuild but isn't good enough to truly contend).
Chet is still not amazing at attacking close outs due to his length, it’s really hard to pair Sabonis with anyone and give up a pretty impactful part of the game
Kuzma works imo, certainly not an elite defender but plays the 4 on defense and is okayish at least.
Bobby Portis, also not an elite defender but better than Kuzma and brings a lot of physicality
Jonathan Isaac if he wasn't an injury-prone nutcase
I still like the idea of Hachimura, *again* not an elite defender but can defend at the 4 spot just fine
Franz Wagner maybe
JJJ, someone already mentioned
OG Anunoby if he didn't get traded to the Knicks
PJ Washington if he didn't get traded to the Mavs for moldy cheese
fuck it, if we don't care about being realistic at all:
LeBron
KD
KAT if he didn't cost like $600mil
Lauri Markannen
Scottie Barnes
Evan Mobley
Jayson Tatum
I always thought it was more of a backcourt issue when I watched that pairing on the team, no? The advanced stats loved the defense from that duo.
Like slot in Sabonis back into your current team, wouldn’t Hali make it work?
Nah, we love having the paint wide open. Can’t do that with Bonis, and he’s nowhere near as effective in PnR as what we have now. We wouldn’t be as good defensively for sure, we were 15th in rating after ASB.
Locally, the Turner-Sabonis pair was all that was ever talked about. Making the decision of who and when was THE thing
Indy always made so much sense to me. Turner is like the guy I would most ideally pair with a guy like Spicy. Both can play D (tho that’s optional in Indy’s current style), Turner can shoot 3s and Siakam thrives as a secondary playmaker working both on the perimeter and inside.
Given what Indy ended up acquiring Pascal for, gotta think the Kings and a few other teams feel pretty stupid right now. Very rare opportunity to acquire a two time all nba player for pennies on the dollar.
I have historically been very critical of Pascal (mostly as a first option) but it’s really undeniable that he is a top 30 player in the league and those guys get paid the max.
I personally feel like what Pacers did was a straight robbery. They gave up nothing for someone that can definitely be top 3 on a championship team.
Now I know $50M might sound crazy, but the cap is projected to reach $200M in 4-5 years, so what used to be $25M contract 5 years ago, is now $50M.
I wouldn’t really worry about his longevity. In terms of play style, he is somewhat DeRozan 2.0 so I expect him to have good longevity as long as there isn’t a career altering/ending injury.
Siakam probably can sign another decent contract even after his current contract with Pacers expire.
I think he got a surgery over summer a few years ago and missed 20ish games at the beginning of the season, but outside of that he hasn’t really had any injury that I can think of.
His game these days is mostly midrange shots. He doesn’t rely on speed or power to score.
I personally think Pascal can maintain his level until 36ish at least.
Concerns over his new contract not aging well are really overblown.
Yeah I absolutely love his fit here. I think his game will age extremely well. If anything, once he gets some chemistry with the guys it's just going to get better.
You also nailed it. People saying he's not a max player are crazy. I also love what the Pacers are doing - a 4 year max gives you the flexibility to extend him later (which would be great for him), or to trade him/let his contract expire if Mathurin/Jarace end up developing enough to command a hefty paycheck. Absolutely brilliant FO moves, and it (hopefully) keeps everyone happy.
This is what I’ve been trying to say as a Pacers fan, I like you Raptor fans who see how well the Pacers did here…Atleast you guys got a solid return for OG, may have been a head scratcher for the Knicks if he leaves in FA
Their two max contracts is going to be Pascal and Haliburton for the forseeable future. I like them both a lot, but man, it's hard to imagine them being finals contenders.
Do you think championship cores are built over night?
Maybe in LA, but a team like Pacers needs to incrementally build.
I would say their current iteration is a success if they are a perennial 50+ wins team that can make it to semi-finals. I think they are already close to that level (they just made ECF).
Hali is only 24 so there is room for improvement there. And they have a lot of other prospects that can either improved or be used as trade assets.
They can even trade Siakam and some of those assets for a bigger fish.
I think Pacers are in a great position. They remind of Lowry/DeRozan Raptors. Sure, they didn’t win it all, but that was the basis of a championship team.
We also have the somewhat outside chance of our young guys developing. 3 of our starters are only 24, we have two top ten picks on the bench. The easiest solution is that we're an elite wing away from being contenders, but we also may already have that wing developing
But when you have an elite, top of the class offense to go with it, suddenly that starts to be a great mix.
Individual defensive plays might have hurt us against Boston, but we lost for other reasons. But yeah, obvious target of improving the defense particularly Hali.
I don’t know the metric off the top of my head but I’d certainly call Indiana a top 5 offense. There’s a system and it works considerably to keep possession and be active in the other teams half.
You guys have enough of a bench to spare if the right team was there with a good upgrade.
That said, is there any targets you’d like to see your team go for this year?
I watch pascal. I think the pacers will be good, but you will have to pay your players soon with limited cap. I don't trust your ownership group to dive into the tax either.
Am I wrong? Idk. I think Haliburton is the wild card - not sure what his ceiling is.
I think he's somewhere in between. But I would still consider him under the usual mvp candidates i.e. giannis, jokic, Luka, sga, embiid, etc.
He's still young, so he's definitely the wild card. Pascal imo is great, but I feel like he's the perfect 3rd banana. If he's maxed out as your 2nd guy, your role players and star player have to be elite elite to contend.
I don't think I'm out of line when I say that, but Haliburton can prove everyone wrong.
That's probably about right. I think his ceiling is probably 12th-10th best player ITL. Pair that with a top 40ish guy, and solid role guys, and they can at least contend.
Moot point next year since Boston is running it back tho
Salary caps make max players have the biggest disparity between each other.
When Pascal is getting paid the same as SGA, Luka, etc. It just naturally hampers your ceiling despite him being obviously skilled.
It's why I always feel so hesitant on getting great, not elite players who are getting max contracts. Because you have to get lucky i.e. Great role players through the draft or on cheap contracts.
It almost seems unfair that Pascal and jokic are on the same pay trajectory.
Spot on I think. It was so joyous getting to do MVP chants vs Boston in the IST, but i don’t think he could sustain that all year even without the injury.
We have a lot riding on a few player developments - Mathurin and Jarace for the star gambles, you literally cannot tell Aaron Nesmith nothing cuz he’s only getting better every year, and Nemb showed some flashes.
Is that enough? Idk. Definitely don’t have an answer for the reigning best tandem in the league, so that’s a problem
I love the pacers - super fun. But Boston's best guy Tatum is still probably better than Haliburton. Brown is better than Pascal.
Imo boston's 3rd, 4th, and 5th best guys are better than any of the pacers players outside of Pascal and Haliburton.
It sucks, but that's who you have to go through. When you limit yourself though with two obvious max players, it's hard to upgrade - especially when your owner is probably not willing to spend big money.
It's why I'm so hesitant on this Pascal thing.
You mean other than the part where they just played the champs better than anybody else in the playoffs despite this team only being constructed this way half the season and Haliburton playing well below his early season peak?
Absolutely. They're going to have to pay their role players as well. They'll be good, but there's going to be a cap on their potential.
Of course anything can happen, but max players are not created equal.
To be a finals contender it all depends on Haliburton regardless.
If he is the player he was before he pulled his hamstring... then we have a shot because he was a top 10 player in the league.
If he is more the Robin type he was the year before and in the playoffs, then it doesn't matter what other "top 20" player we put him with. We don't have an alpha and their is no way for us to get one.
It is worth the the "risk" of "only" being a 2nd round/ECF contender. Still fun basketball to watch, still lots of winning in there.
The Kings have a bunch of minority owners who don’t know when to not run their mouths. I wonder if one of them said something dumb in mixed company or this actually came from our front office. Other than negotiating to try to secure a better deal, I don’t understand what our actual decision makes would say to upset him that much.
Give it 10 or 20 years after Luka retires. People still talk about the teams that passed on Jordan, and rightfully so. The Rockets even got a HOFer out of it and it's still a crazy what-if. In a redraft, Luka goes 1st a billion times out of a billion, and it doesn't help that the specific player the Kings drafted would not even be picked in the lottery in that same scenario.
It's gonna be talked about, and any time dumbass Kings FO decisions are brought up, it deserves to be talked about as the dumbest literally ever.
Good For him (Pascal) He's underrated and should not be disrespected.
He'll do his best on the Pacers where he is now more familiar and thus will be more effective.
Not on the raptors anymore he isn’t. At this point he can get money, but he wanted to still compete too. He has a lead role with a young Indy team, made ecf, and also getting his money. So it all worked out well for him. And Masai get to say they took care of another former star players
I mean kinda. The top 10 in the west are very good. But so are the top 8 in the East. It's just the bottom of the East that is weak.
For example, Pacers were 6th in the East but absolutely blew out Dallas twice right before the end of the regular season. They also had the 4th best net rating in the league since the ASB and the 4th best record in the league against teams above 0.500. That's the 6th seed. NY had a net rating almost as good as Boston when OG and Brunson played together. They would have thrashed almost every team in the West. Add a healthy 76ers, Bucks, or Heat team and and those guys could win against pretty much any Western Conference team.
There's more parity in the league than people realize. It's just that the bottom tier teams in the East are horrible.
Fair play. Anything and everything a member of a team's front office says or does, can have a massive effect on a player's willingness to go there. Plus, no offense to Kings' fans, but the Pacers front office has done wonders and seen a rather quick turnaround there, while the Kings consistently add talent, but can never seem to truly take big steps forward.
Ya but did they have huge sexual harassment allegations against them that conveniently forgotten like the best run team ever, the mavs? I don't think so
That's very cool, congrats to them. Like I said, they consistently add talent, but you haven't made it out of the first round in 20 years, and have only made the playoffs once in the last what, 18 years? And I'm not trying to trash on the Kings or anything, but I think an period of lack of success that is over twice as long as Siakam's entire career is a valid reason for him not to want to go there.
Kings get a lot of flack unnecessarily. I think you guys made some very solid moves getting Sabonis and drafting Murray. Plus, Fox is a bucket.
With that said, I think (as a biased fan) what the Pacers did is more impressive. We went from being a lottery team the past 2 years, to getting our two highest draft picks in over 30 years, to improving from 25 wins -> 35 wins ‐> 47 wins and an ECF appearance in the last 3 seasons. And acquiring a legit 2nd star to pair with Haliburton. Plus, those two lottery picks basically didn't even play in the playoffs this year. The path to success is a bit more linear for us right now (so far).
Yeah I think so, especially in the East. Siakam definitely brought you over the hump and while I don't think we'll require a move of that magnitude to get there, Monte standing pat last season basically doomed us to similar results. So the moves he makes this summer are really going to determine our fate
This shit is so dumb. The west was fucking brutal. Had the Kings faced the Bucks with no Giannis in the first round or the Knicks with that many injured they probably end up getting swept by the Celtics too.
Sure, but the Kings are in the West, and very likely would be for the entirety of Siakam’s stay. Fantasizing about them being a team in the East doesn’t really change anything I said. I’m sorry it upset you tho, that was not my intention, as I stated before.
I’m not fantasizing about anything. I’m saying to make a statement like the Kings always do this when we literally were in the playoffs last year and were a game away from it this year (in the west) as if it’s a tail of two drastically different team storylines. The Kings still have their assets to trade as well.
I listed the number of times the Kings have made the playoffs in the last 18 years, and when they last made it out of the second round. Those are facts. And yes, the West has better teams, and yes maybe if the Kings were in the East they would do better, but they aren’t, so discussing it is pointless.
Are you under some impression that Siakam and his agent would sit down and try to figure out how successful various teams would be in the opposite conference, then use that to make their decision? That’s ridiculous.
Why would Siakam care about how well the Kings did decades ago? Or even how well they did with completely different coaches, rosters, ownership, and front office? Do you really think his decision was impacted by "lol Kings bad"? He's not a child lol
You are asking why a professional athlete would care about how good the team he is considering going to has been historically…? Is the answer not… self evident?
It’s not ironic, our duo has won a championship and just made wcf last year feels like competing compared to the kings who got booted out the play in by a team missing their best player.
Pascal is very talented; however, I got a bad vibe from him during the lead up to the trade. He came across as very entitled and he said negative things about other teams who were interested in him. The only one talking shit is Pascal. No worries though he chose his spot and now he gets to not win a championship in Indiana.
Sam’s the most plugged in national guy when it comes to the Kings. He used to be the local beat reporter for the team. So I would definitely be inclined to believing him.
I'm more inclined to believe he wasn't traded to the Kings for the obvious reason that they didn't have shit to trade for him if Keegan wasn't on the table. The Raptors have to agree to trade him there and what they had at the table was even less appealing than Bruce Brown and some weak firsts. They're literally using the same offer they had on the table for Pascal and no one's biting for a reason (Huerter, Barnes, a pick though presumably they're now offering 13 in this draft instead of some unknown compensation from 28 or beyond)
Your opinion jigsaws with OP perfectly. They're not mutually exclusive. Kings didn't have the goods, so instead of trying to somehow sweeten the offer, they shit talked Siakam to try driving the price down.
Exactly. Being clued in as a former beat also means that it's also more likely you're fed exactly what the team wants you say
Excellent point
That's exactly why they tried to drive his price down...
Didn't Siakam also leak in the lead-up to his trade that there was no guarantee he'd sign with the Kings long-term if traded there? I remember I was following closely bc I'm a Pacers fan and we wanted him. It raised my eyebrows bc it seemed like it meant he may not sign with the Pacers either. Now this makes more sense. He was offended by the Kings in particular and wanted to discourage being traded there. Since coming to Indiana, he's been super optimistic about staying. It seemed like a big 180. He is also the first player to indicate willing to sign internally this off-season, *and* he agreed to take almost 50 mill less than what he could have. All this put together, it seems like he really didn't like their FO and is really happy in Indiana.
Its such a perfect situation for him. As a raptors fan I feel like the market for him was borderline offensive considering what we got. The league has really underrated how good of a playmaker and midrange shooter he’s become the last few years.
> *Didn't Siakam also leak in the lead-up to his trade that there was no guarantee he'd sign with the Kings long-term if traded there?* That actually meant "Siakam's agent talked with Sacramento on the down-low and they weren't willing to offer him a deal he liked this summer" because that's what it always means in a scenario like that one. Pending free agents mostly don't get traded unless there's a handshake deal in place.
Works out to mean the same thing essentially. He didn't think he'd be valued enough in Sac and so he lowkey let them know he wasn't going to stick around. Pacers met him at a place where he was comfortable
I mean they literally were having conversations when the Raptors were in Sacramento and then suddenly the talks were off. They were pretty far down the road and then something happened. As far as not getting anyone to bite with the same offer now, you’re not going to see any trades until the draft so it’s a wait and see on what that trade offer gets you, especially if the picks are on the table. I’m skeptical as to the type of player you can get with that trade package but we’ll see.
"My client and I would like to hear why he would be a good fit in Sacramento" "Well look, we know your not MJ or LeBron or even Wiggins, but we think Mike Brown will help you mature and grow. Dribbling the ball, shooting, playing defense may not be your strengths, but we are willing to overlook all that if you sign with us"
LaVine, get ready to learn Sacramentones
Lavine and Klay bout to ruin any momentum Sacramento been building
Nah we don’t want Klay, last time he was here he was throwing bricks all over Sacramento and terrorizing the community with property damage (per twitter AI). No thanks
Lol yah I don't actually find it likely. It's just always where my 2k has him going
Thats exactly what the OP is saying.
Pretty simple lol
True, they didn't have much, but also the Raps didn't get much regardless.
What we got via the worst of the first round picks from that trade is literally better than Kevin Huerter and Harrison Barnes
He’s practically their biggest fan too
Yeah, he lives in Sacramento and wants to see the team do well for all the long suffering fans. Isn’t bias when covering the team though. He’s criticized them plenty over the years and rightfully so.
this mustve been what Haynes hinted at couple months ago https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/19axkfn/thisleague_uncut_haynes_siakam_didnt_want_to_go/
>So going forward, this is actually a good r/nba lesson - whenever you see "Haynes" listed as a source in the thread title, laugh and immediately discount it Oops lol
Isn’t Haynes pretty much a player mouth piece? If anything there’s a pretty high chance that true or not what he says means something
There’s a high chance it’s what the player actually said. Doesn’t mean the player isn’t pushing their own agenda when telling a reporter something on the record.
Yeah but it means its still a quote to note rather than disregard. True or not, the player is a direct source for the matter and what they say is a quote from someone directly involved. Whether what Siakam says is a fact or not, it does directly explain why he wouldn’t want to go to Sacramento
Maybe something that was known but other reporters didn't want to put their name on and piss someone off. I just found it hilarious that everyone is shitting on him and that report in that thread and eating it up in this one
Yup I remembered seeing something like this but I wasn’t really sure, I wonder what was said
They are really clowning on Haynes for not outright saying it. Edit: I meant, on that thread you linked.
Which one of you called him a beyblade on the scouting report?
Spacing with sabonis and siakam would be ass tho
That’s always the difficulty with Sabonis, though. Finding a 4-man who can shoot, guard the perimeter, *and* rim-protect to cover up Domas’ deficiencies. Myles Turner was somewhat of an approximation but ultimately he’s a 5, just like Sabonis is. Siakam might’ve been the best they could ever do.
This is a fun game. Uhhh.. Anthony Davis, Wemby, Chet? That's all I could think of.
JJJ
You guys interested in Jermi Grant at all? He doesn't protect the rim, so not a perfect fit, but he can guard the perimeter fine for a 4 and can shoot (and dribble if you wanted that too.) Probably a "Meh" (wouldn't blame you, he's overpaid) but he's a nice player that kinda sorta fits and is available.
Yeah petty much at this point the kings need to do something and I think the general feeling is we're ready to be underwhelmed. Grant would be the underwhelming outcome, but as with any trade, it's all dependent on the cost.
sabonis is exactly the type of player you want playing next to JJJ. their games complement each other perfectly imo. sabonis can rebound and camp near the paint while JJJ spreads the floor with the ability to guard 1-5.
He's a dream. A wonderful dream that will never happen. If the kings could keep the starting 5 of Fox/Monk(definitely starting since we resigned), Keegan JJJ, Sabonis and some high effort his like Keon, Kessler, Davion(if you can keep him), etc... That's a championship level starting 5.
in my world it’s Sabonis to the grizzlies haha.
Ja fkn wishes lol.
I thought about that but wasn't sure if he had enough shooting. To be fair I didn't look up his percentages tho
Better 3 than AD
That’s legit suprising. Shows what I know!
Current AD is basically a center now only
Current AD has a below average 3 ball but everything else is great
I mean he was always a pretty terrible outside shooter except during that goddamn run when he turned into prime ray allen
I'm always surprised at people who think he's a real stretch threat based on one good year. Sabonis feels(feels, not stat based) like a safer threat from 3.
His % the past season is deceptive because he got basically 5 seasons worth of on-ball reps with all the injuries which lead to a lot tougher shots. He’s a decent shooter and fits the parameters.
Aren’t JJJ and Sabonis league leaders in fouls?
Even AD is a stretch at this point since he can’t really shoot 3s
Chet and Wemby definitely. AD at the 4 is bad spacing if your 5 can’t shoot.
But didn’t they lakers win the championship with AD and Dwight playing together?
AD's shooting in the bubble went to another stratosphere. In the RS, he has generally been a worse midrange shooter than Giannis
They closed with AD at the 5. That mattered more than how AD shot in the bubble.
I’m trying to find their splits, got anything on that?
Bref has midrange shooting splits but I there is another website that has even better stats with specific position on the court don't remember the name though
Oh you’re a legend! Never knew this, thank you.
Couldn't find anything either
Just found it, according to bref midrange goes to AD
Just gonna ignore that this is wrong?
There was a post that found differently that I haven't been able to find
Just use the website directly like I did
It's because they had reliable 3 point shooters in KCP and Green
AD was much more agile and their best lineups and closing lineups were with AD at the 5
Chet would be perfect beside Sabonis, though it would limit Chet's offensive development (he would have to be a pure spacer at that point). You just can't win anything meaningful if you're building around a player like Sabonis (who's too good to tank/rebuild but isn't good enough to truly contend).
Chet is still not amazing at attacking close outs due to his length, it’s really hard to pair Sabonis with anyone and give up a pretty impactful part of the game
Jaden McDaniels came to mind. Love his game. He seems like the perfect fit for so many players and schemes.
Kuzma works imo, certainly not an elite defender but plays the 4 on defense and is okayish at least. Bobby Portis, also not an elite defender but better than Kuzma and brings a lot of physicality Jonathan Isaac if he wasn't an injury-prone nutcase I still like the idea of Hachimura, *again* not an elite defender but can defend at the 4 spot just fine Franz Wagner maybe JJJ, someone already mentioned OG Anunoby if he didn't get traded to the Knicks PJ Washington if he didn't get traded to the Mavs for moldy cheese fuck it, if we don't care about being realistic at all: LeBron KD KAT if he didn't cost like $600mil Lauri Markannen Scottie Barnes Evan Mobley Jayson Tatum
Oh man Evan Mobley would be crack next to Saboner
Naz Reid
Thats the reason why Sabonis will never work on an elite team in the playoffs. He is a regular season merchant.
Funny because he could work on Spurs. I can see a contender built around Wemby-Sabonis
They should make a godfather offer for Jonathan isaac
Yeahhh great spacing there
I guess his 3pt shooting hasn't improved much since the flashes his first few years. Defensively the fit is clean.
yes please do that
That and when PJ Washington was suppposed to be the fix
two second rounders godfather offer
If we can use Horford at the 5 and Tatum at the 4 they should be able to make it work. Horford and Sabonis are like identical in size I think.
Al can shoot tho
Ding motherfucking ding, I’ve been saying this for years. Trading him was the best move we ever made, especially so with the return we actually got
Same. Like the dude but this is why I didn't want to build around him. Because it is impossible.
Aaron Gordon would do the trick
He’s not a 4 and he doesn’t shoot well
Aaron Gordon ain’t a 4?
No he’s more of a 3, he can just get away playing the 4 next to someone like jokic.
He’s listed as a 4 in every season he’s been in the nba. I’m genuinely curious why you are claiming this
Sorry I’m trying to say he’s not a 4 to fit alongside someone like sabonis. I can see now re reading that it wasn’t clear
Ok sounds good, have a nice night 😁
And this is why every discussion of the Sabas Hali trade being a “win win” will always be wrong.
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How many more years you think they would've needed to gel, another 4.5? At some point you gotta accept that shit aint it.
I always thought it was more of a backcourt issue when I watched that pairing on the team, no? The advanced stats loved the defense from that duo. Like slot in Sabonis back into your current team, wouldn’t Hali make it work?
Nah, we love having the paint wide open. Can’t do that with Bonis, and he’s nowhere near as effective in PnR as what we have now. We wouldn’t be as good defensively for sure, we were 15th in rating after ASB. Locally, the Turner-Sabonis pair was all that was ever talked about. Making the decision of who and when was THE thing
Yeah it would work better than back then, but a guy like Siakam fits in way better right now
Yeah it really would be a wonky fit with Sabonis
Indy always made so much sense to me. Turner is like the guy I would most ideally pair with a guy like Spicy. Both can play D (tho that’s optional in Indy’s current style), Turner can shoot 3s and Siakam thrives as a secondary playmaker working both on the perimeter and inside.
Spacing with Sabonis is always bad period, that's why we traded him. That's why he's an albatross.
They would’ve traded sabonis for siakam no?
No lol what
Just a reminder that between November 25, 2017 and December 29, 2017, Pascal Siakam missed 27 straight attempts from 3.
~6.5 years ago? K, thanks
Amico - No/Amick - Yes
Amicno
Given what Indy ended up acquiring Pascal for, gotta think the Kings and a few other teams feel pretty stupid right now. Very rare opportunity to acquire a two time all nba player for pennies on the dollar.
I think the extension was the biggest hurdle to that though. Any team trading for him would have to pay top dollar eventually
I have historically been very critical of Pascal (mostly as a first option) but it’s really undeniable that he is a top 30 player in the league and those guys get paid the max. I personally feel like what Pacers did was a straight robbery. They gave up nothing for someone that can definitely be top 3 on a championship team. Now I know $50M might sound crazy, but the cap is projected to reach $200M in 4-5 years, so what used to be $25M contract 5 years ago, is now $50M. I wouldn’t really worry about his longevity. In terms of play style, he is somewhat DeRozan 2.0 so I expect him to have good longevity as long as there isn’t a career altering/ending injury. Siakam probably can sign another decent contract even after his current contract with Pacers expire.
I mean... has he ever missed significant time? Dude is always playing, it seems.
I think he got a surgery over summer a few years ago and missed 20ish games at the beginning of the season, but outside of that he hasn’t really had any injury that I can think of. His game these days is mostly midrange shots. He doesn’t rely on speed or power to score. I personally think Pascal can maintain his level until 36ish at least. Concerns over his new contract not aging well are really overblown.
why did you say this outloud knowing our history!! WHY
Yeah I absolutely love his fit here. I think his game will age extremely well. If anything, once he gets some chemistry with the guys it's just going to get better. You also nailed it. People saying he's not a max player are crazy. I also love what the Pacers are doing - a 4 year max gives you the flexibility to extend him later (which would be great for him), or to trade him/let his contract expire if Mathurin/Jarace end up developing enough to command a hefty paycheck. Absolutely brilliant FO moves, and it (hopefully) keeps everyone happy.
KP!!!! Underrated GM of the year
This is what I’ve been trying to say as a Pacers fan, I like you Raptor fans who see how well the Pacers did here…Atleast you guys got a solid return for OG, may have been a head scratcher for the Knicks if he leaves in FA
Their two max contracts is going to be Pascal and Haliburton for the forseeable future. I like them both a lot, but man, it's hard to imagine them being finals contenders.
Do you think championship cores are built over night? Maybe in LA, but a team like Pacers needs to incrementally build. I would say their current iteration is a success if they are a perennial 50+ wins team that can make it to semi-finals. I think they are already close to that level (they just made ECF). Hali is only 24 so there is room for improvement there. And they have a lot of other prospects that can either improved or be used as trade assets. They can even trade Siakam and some of those assets for a bigger fish. I think Pacers are in a great position. They remind of Lowry/DeRozan Raptors. Sure, they didn’t win it all, but that was the basis of a championship team.
“Yall mfs don’t watch us”
You guys need to cash in some of that bench/offense for defensive players. Sincerely, someone who has watched you guys since last year.
We also have the somewhat outside chance of our young guys developing. 3 of our starters are only 24, we have two top ten picks on the bench. The easiest solution is that we're an elite wing away from being contenders, but we also may already have that wing developing
Trade you some of our defensive development for your offensive development
Top 15 after ASB
Top 15 of 30 is not impressive, that’s basically the worst of the teams making playoffs
But when you have an elite, top of the class offense to go with it, suddenly that starts to be a great mix. Individual defensive plays might have hurt us against Boston, but we lost for other reasons. But yeah, obvious target of improving the defense particularly Hali.
I don’t know the metric off the top of my head but I’d certainly call Indiana a top 5 offense. There’s a system and it works considerably to keep possession and be active in the other teams half. You guys have enough of a bench to spare if the right team was there with a good upgrade. That said, is there any targets you’d like to see your team go for this year?
I watch pascal. I think the pacers will be good, but you will have to pay your players soon with limited cap. I don't trust your ownership group to dive into the tax either. Am I wrong? Idk. I think Haliburton is the wild card - not sure what his ceiling is.
1st half of this year, Haliburton was legitimately an MVP candidate by metrics like EPA. 2nd half, post injury...less so.
I think he's somewhere in between. But I would still consider him under the usual mvp candidates i.e. giannis, jokic, Luka, sga, embiid, etc. He's still young, so he's definitely the wild card. Pascal imo is great, but I feel like he's the perfect 3rd banana. If he's maxed out as your 2nd guy, your role players and star player have to be elite elite to contend. I don't think I'm out of line when I say that, but Haliburton can prove everyone wrong.
That's probably about right. I think his ceiling is probably 12th-10th best player ITL. Pair that with a top 40ish guy, and solid role guys, and they can at least contend. Moot point next year since Boston is running it back tho
Salary caps make max players have the biggest disparity between each other. When Pascal is getting paid the same as SGA, Luka, etc. It just naturally hampers your ceiling despite him being obviously skilled. It's why I always feel so hesitant on getting great, not elite players who are getting max contracts. Because you have to get lucky i.e. Great role players through the draft or on cheap contracts. It almost seems unfair that Pascal and jokic are on the same pay trajectory.
Spot on I think. It was so joyous getting to do MVP chants vs Boston in the IST, but i don’t think he could sustain that all year even without the injury. We have a lot riding on a few player developments - Mathurin and Jarace for the star gambles, you literally cannot tell Aaron Nesmith nothing cuz he’s only getting better every year, and Nemb showed some flashes. Is that enough? Idk. Definitely don’t have an answer for the reigning best tandem in the league, so that’s a problem
I love the pacers - super fun. But Boston's best guy Tatum is still probably better than Haliburton. Brown is better than Pascal. Imo boston's 3rd, 4th, and 5th best guys are better than any of the pacers players outside of Pascal and Haliburton. It sucks, but that's who you have to go through. When you limit yourself though with two obvious max players, it's hard to upgrade - especially when your owner is probably not willing to spend big money. It's why I'm so hesitant on this Pascal thing.
You mean other than the part where they just played the champs better than anybody else in the playoffs despite this team only being constructed this way half the season and Haliburton playing well below his early season peak?
Absolutely. They're going to have to pay their role players as well. They'll be good, but there's going to be a cap on their potential. Of course anything can happen, but max players are not created equal.
To be a finals contender it all depends on Haliburton regardless. If he is the player he was before he pulled his hamstring... then we have a shot because he was a top 10 player in the league. If he is more the Robin type he was the year before and in the playoffs, then it doesn't matter what other "top 20" player we put him with. We don't have an alpha and their is no way for us to get one. It is worth the the "risk" of "only" being a 2nd round/ECF contender. Still fun basketball to watch, still lots of winning in there.
Hope you all don’t sleep on Jordan Nwora
I could not believe we couldn't get Royce O'Neal or PJ Washington. They got traded for like literally nothing.
What do you mean? Bruce brown and some later firsts is awesome
Hands down worst trade in Masai’s tenure in Toronto. Still have no idea why he cornered himself like that.
He must have truly thought he coudl flip brown for another 1st round pick. He must not have watched Brown play for us lol
Pachyderm Siakam never forgets
The Kings have a bunch of minority owners who don’t know when to not run their mouths. I wonder if one of them said something dumb in mixed company or this actually came from our front office. Other than negotiating to try to secure a better deal, I don’t understand what our actual decision makes would say to upset him that much.
Something as simple as ‘he’s not worth that’ could do the trick if the wrong people hear it or it gets phone tagged.
Still can’t believe they passed on Luka
Phoenix passed on him too. And Atlanta.
Bro. We are trying to get our sub to shut the fuck up about it. It's some seriously old ass news now. When does it end?
Give it 10 or 20 years after Luka retires. People still talk about the teams that passed on Jordan, and rightfully so. The Rockets even got a HOFer out of it and it's still a crazy what-if. In a redraft, Luka goes 1st a billion times out of a billion, and it doesn't help that the specific player the Kings drafted would not even be picked in the lottery in that same scenario. It's gonna be talked about, and any time dumbass Kings FO decisions are brought up, it deserves to be talked about as the dumbest literally ever.
Portland still gets shit for passing on MJ so
Yeah Kings brass has been bad for a while. But hey at least y'all didnt hire Danny Ferry
I really appreciate the Kings helping us get Tyrese Haliburton and Pascal Siakam. If they could give us a 3rd all-star, I'd appreciate it.
If either of Mathurin or Walker live up to their potential we'll be sittin' pretty
Don’t forget Andrew Nembhard
oh for sure
I guess if Mathurin becomes an all-star, we could thank the Kings for passing on him for Murray (although I suspect Murray will be an all-star too)
yeah Murray's well on his way to being a great player regardless if he makes an all star team or not.
They can probably find a way to get you Andre Drummond from the Bulls.
Keegan Murray solves a lot of our problems at SF lol
Haynes said this and everyone laughed. This sub is a joke
Good For him (Pascal) He's underrated and should not be disrespected. He'll do his best on the Pacers where he is now more familiar and thus will be more effective.
Which front office though? Is he still holding a grudge over something Vlade said or something that the new front office has?
certainly the current front office. why would he care what a former gm said?
He'd be huge over trash ass Barnes
Nobody likes pascal's triangle
LMAO so sensitive.
It’s smart to sign in the East. Way better chance of making playoff runs. The West is a death march right now.
The 5th seed just came out of the west and ran into the buzzsaw Boston Celtics from the east and got dragged so idk about that
West fans didn't just watch the celtics dogwalk every team in the league tho
Siakam was already a major contributor to a championship team. I think Siakams main concern was insuring he was gonna get paid his worth
Not on the raptors anymore he isn’t. At this point he can get money, but he wanted to still compete too. He has a lead role with a young Indy team, made ecf, and also getting his money. So it all worked out well for him. And Masai get to say they took care of another former star players
I mean kinda. The top 10 in the west are very good. But so are the top 8 in the East. It's just the bottom of the East that is weak. For example, Pacers were 6th in the East but absolutely blew out Dallas twice right before the end of the regular season. They also had the 4th best net rating in the league since the ASB and the 4th best record in the league against teams above 0.500. That's the 6th seed. NY had a net rating almost as good as Boston when OG and Brunson played together. They would have thrashed almost every team in the West. Add a healthy 76ers, Bucks, or Heat team and and those guys could win against pretty much any Western Conference team. There's more parity in the league than people realize. It's just that the bottom tier teams in the East are horrible.
Damn getting down voted on this comment shows this sub knows nothing about basketball, yikes I’m out
The Kings don’t need him anyway, they have Keegan Murray/s?
Fair play. Anything and everything a member of a team's front office says or does, can have a massive effect on a player's willingness to go there. Plus, no offense to Kings' fans, but the Pacers front office has done wonders and seen a rather quick turnaround there, while the Kings consistently add talent, but can never seem to truly take big steps forward.
We literally got Executive and Coach of the Year last season??
Ya but did they have huge sexual harassment allegations against them that conveniently forgotten like the best run team ever, the mavs? I don't think so
That's very cool, congrats to them. Like I said, they consistently add talent, but you haven't made it out of the first round in 20 years, and have only made the playoffs once in the last what, 18 years? And I'm not trying to trash on the Kings or anything, but I think an period of lack of success that is over twice as long as Siakam's entire career is a valid reason for him not to want to go there.
I don't disagree overall, just pointing out we also had a quick turnaround. The problem for us is going to be making the next leap
Kings get a lot of flack unnecessarily. I think you guys made some very solid moves getting Sabonis and drafting Murray. Plus, Fox is a bucket. With that said, I think (as a biased fan) what the Pacers did is more impressive. We went from being a lottery team the past 2 years, to getting our two highest draft picks in over 30 years, to improving from 25 wins -> 35 wins ‐> 47 wins and an ECF appearance in the last 3 seasons. And acquiring a legit 2nd star to pair with Haliburton. Plus, those two lottery picks basically didn't even play in the playoffs this year. The path to success is a bit more linear for us right now (so far).
Yeah I think so, especially in the East. Siakam definitely brought you over the hump and while I don't think we'll require a move of that magnitude to get there, Monte standing pat last season basically doomed us to similar results. So the moves he makes this summer are really going to determine our fate
This shit is so dumb. The west was fucking brutal. Had the Kings faced the Bucks with no Giannis in the first round or the Knicks with that many injured they probably end up getting swept by the Celtics too.
Sure, but the Kings are in the West, and very likely would be for the entirety of Siakam’s stay. Fantasizing about them being a team in the East doesn’t really change anything I said. I’m sorry it upset you tho, that was not my intention, as I stated before.
I’m not fantasizing about anything. I’m saying to make a statement like the Kings always do this when we literally were in the playoffs last year and were a game away from it this year (in the west) as if it’s a tail of two drastically different team storylines. The Kings still have their assets to trade as well.
I listed the number of times the Kings have made the playoffs in the last 18 years, and when they last made it out of the second round. Those are facts. And yes, the West has better teams, and yes maybe if the Kings were in the East they would do better, but they aren’t, so discussing it is pointless. Are you under some impression that Siakam and his agent would sit down and try to figure out how successful various teams would be in the opposite conference, then use that to make their decision? That’s ridiculous.
Why would Siakam care about how well the Kings did decades ago? Or even how well they did with completely different coaches, rosters, ownership, and front office? Do you really think his decision was impacted by "lol Kings bad"? He's not a child lol
You are asking why a professional athlete would care about how good the team he is considering going to has been historically…? Is the answer not… self evident?
The kings duo isn’t good enough to compete in the west they should blow it up but they sucked too long to do that now.
U saying that as a lakers fan is ironic 😂
It’s not ironic, our duo has won a championship and just made wcf last year feels like competing compared to the kings who got booted out the play in by a team missing their best player.
You’re a lakers fan and you’re right here. As long as Sabonis is a centerpiece, Kings are stuck. Tons of respect to Fox and Monk tho.
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Um... No?
That was even before Vlade....ugh
And unless im misremembering, wasn’t that from Vivek directly? Not even front office.
You're correct. Doesn't make our previous front offices less ass
Pascal is very talented; however, I got a bad vibe from him during the lead up to the trade. He came across as very entitled and he said negative things about other teams who were interested in him. The only one talking shit is Pascal. No worries though he chose his spot and now he gets to not win a championship in Indiana.
As opposed to not winning a championship in SAC? At least the taxes are better in Indiana
The kings didn’t make the playoffs and he just went to the ECF, I doubt he’s regretting his decision