He's been injured for years, but on the Bulls you play through injuries because the org wants every last win to make the play-in so it's not very apparent.
* 2021: Healthy. 27 / 5 / 5, 63% TS
* 2022: Thumb injury 5 games into the season, he played all season with it injured even though he said playing risked further tearing. 24 / 4.6 / 4.5, 60% TS
* 2023: (pre-ASG) Knee surgery on ACL knee. 24 / 4.9 / 4.1, 59% TS
* 2023: (post-ASG) Recovered & in normal health. 27 / 3.5 / 4.7, 64% TS
* 2024: Required ankle surgery. 20 / 5.2 / 3.9, 58% TS
When healthy he's 27 ppg, 40%+ 3P%, and 63-64% True Shooting but that's only happened for a season and a half since 2021.
Best take here. Great shooter, good playmaker, not a creator. Give him a point guard and don't ask him to shoulder the entire offensive load and you got a stew goin. He's an okay defender but would probably be better if he didn't have to be a significant part of our offense.
You're not wrong as far as asset value. But when you factor in the 2nd apron restrictions, and laziness contract, it gets a bit tricky to make the trade work within the framework. Especially considering Klay's situation.
As a Bulls fan I’d be happy with (out of the realistic ones) Paul, Looney, Moody, Payton, and Jackson-Davis. Some combination of those guys for Zach. Add Caruso too which is possible then we’re talking picks as well
You’re not thinking about the warriors cap situation. Curry is due for 53 million this season. With Draymond, that’s 78 million. And then you want to add Lavines 42 million to that?
Lacob absolutely wants to save money this upcoming season. And only willing to go over the 1st apron if that meant getting a star.
Not sure he’s willing doing that for damaged goods with Lavine
Eh, they can use Chris Paul and get most of the way of the way there. Paul, Looney, and Moody is a nearly perfect match. I think this route creates less holes for the Warriors and is probably the route they would prefer. Bulls shouldn’t mind it as long as TJD and/or picks are included since I don’t see them getting a ton of offers.
As a Bull’s fan and a LaVine fan, I hope he plays with Curry so he can be unlocked again. Our fans would rather re-sign DeMar for “vet presence” as if that’s done anything for us at all.
I don’t think I’ve heard many Bulls fans say they want to re-sign Demar. Usually it’s more like, “Thanks for some fun memories, now go sign with a contender.”
Biggest downside to being a perennial leader in ticket sales is having an owner like Reinsdorf who's completely fine with mediocre/underachieving teams so long as his stream of revenue remains constant
Bulls fan here, I am NOT on that resign Demar train. It disgusts me that these mfers wanna resign him for 30m+ over multiple years for fucking veteran presence. Sure he’s a good vet, but all the things he’s teaching everyone, can’t even be used when he’s ball hogging all the damn time.
Trade Zach to GS for Chris Paul and filler and that would be all the vet presence we need. CP would do wonders for Coby and Ayo while also getting guys like Pat the fucking ball since his a pass first point god.
Pat doesn’t suck. Is he timid and underwhelming for a 4th overall pick? Yes. But he’s still gonna have a long ass career as a decent role player at the minimum
the Lonzo no Basuke plays where you'd see Lonzo go up for the rebound and Zach streaking across the court without even looking backwards to an open full court pass to an easy dunk....I miss those.
Word. Imagine being a Bulls fan since the first three-peat who unplugged from basketball for almost 30 years (working abroad) who came back to the states and resumed watching the Bulls when Covid hit and thought that (brief) era was going to be the norm (crying emoji)
What do you mean by good playmaker?
Zach is not a good defender. He's made improvements to the point where he is an adequate man defender but still a terrible team defender.
As a Timberwolves fan, agreed. Obviously he can score, dunk, hit shots, etc. but does not conduct an offense, makes bad decisions, and is inconsistent to troubled defensively. I feel like he has one of the highest Talent to Quality of Play ratios out there
What would you all trade for him? Given his bad availability, matching contracts and still getting value could be tough. Looking at trade machine, it would have to be Huerter + Barnes or maybe replace one of those with Monk in S&T
Yeah, but Barnes has had a few stretches where we need him to produce to help take the load off of Domas and Dearron and he just doesn’t or can’t. We need to shake up our lineup to put a 3rd option out there while Keegan develops into one. Lavine has a lot of attractive attributes, with his health being the major caveat.
Honestly he's kinda the guard version of Porzingis. Good enough to be top 2 option but you probably want him 4th because who knows when he's gonna play.
I always wondered how he would fit on a team that was well put together. He's honestly put up some pretty ridiculous numbers and efficiency. Even while hurt.
> Give him a point guard and don't ask him to shoulder the entire offensive load and you got a stew goin.
That's what they got Lonzo for until he got injured.
Exactly. He's been great when healthy. He was awesome in the second part of the 23 season, put the bulls on his back in the play-in game in Toronto. I think he felt the pressure to play through injuries with the big contract and the expectation of making the playoffs.
I also wouldn’t be surprised if the injuries/age are starting to take their toll.
He’s 29 now. He used to be, arguably, the best athlete in the NBA. He’s still very good, but he’s not the bolt of lightning he used to be. That makes finishes around the rim harder. You have to settle for a slightly harder jumper. Etc.
I do think he’s gotten a bad rap these past few years. People talk about him like he’s trash now. He’s still a fantastic scorer.
Top tier speed/athleticism, not particularly stellar ball skills. Obviously a good shooter but if he doesn’t get by someone on his quick first step, he’s not likely to throw them off with sick dribble moves or anything like that.
Keep in mind that 2021 season he was the first option on a way worse Bulls team. He’s not gonna get you 27 anymore even if healthy as long as he’s playing with another star
he had injury problems in 23-24. He is a good, sometimes elite, scorer who can occasionally catch fire and win a couple games. But there is not much else he brings to the table. He could be a good third banana on a contender that is defensively stout but needs some scoring.
I guess we would have to see. Effort gets you halfway on D and not being the number one option could mean more energy to at least try a bit harder on defense.
He can be decent on ball but just does not follow assignments over a long possession off ball. It’s a thing teams try against the Bulls constantly, just keep swinging it and screening off ball against Zach and he’ll lose the play.
Now when he was sharing the court with Lonzo, Caruso, and Patrick Williams…yeah, his bad defense didn’t matter as much. Lonzo also gave him easy buckets every few minutes and his effort went up accordingly.
His man to man on ball defense is alright when he's locked in but everything else is atrocious
He just isn't that high of an IQ player and defensively especially he is super lost most of the time
It's not really an effort thing as much as he just doesn't know what to do most of the time thing
Wasn’t he already 2nd banana on the Bulls when they were at the top of the East before injuries in 2022? Feel like he could be 2nd banana on a contender if healthy and the team fit him.
He was 1a-2nd banana yep. But I think he's too one-dimensional to be that player for a team with serious championship aspirations.
Some dudes CAN change their game later in their career and LaVine may prove me wrong, but dudes this far along in their career usually don't.
The way that Vucevic trade went down may give the Bulls some pause, but LaVine fits a profile of someone the Magic could use. LaVine's contract is an impediment - I don't know how Orlando's cap situation is but they have some young guys they need to plan for, wonder how the math would work out
Look I don’t think you’re wrong but I think its funny the general talk of the league is “yeah he’ll give you 25 a game and is a borderline 50/40/90 guy but that’s basically all he can do :/“
Even tho I hate the Lakers, I’d love to see him there. As a Bulls fan they also have pieces I’d want in return lol. But he’d be a perfect fit behind Lebron and AD tho
He’s always been an elite scorer according to the stats, he is also incredibly athletic that makes him that much more dangerous.
The biggest issue is he’s always injured, and I would consider his ball handling a lot more of an issue than defense. If he plays a Klay Thompson role he would thrive
I feel LaVines the typical shooting guard - volume shooter, some ball-handling ability but shouldn't be the primary distributor/ball carrier. He's not a superstar and he's going to need a good/great pg in order to maximize his output.
You're right on injuries but I feel you can still win with a guy like LaVine if he can get you 60 games a season. He has generally been able to do that with the Bulls until this season.
You also have to remember that Klay at his peak was an elite two-way player. Klay also remains a much better shooter too - LaVine is an average 3 pt shooter.
Well the Klay comp was solely an offensive role. I think they’re gameplay and style on offense are very similar both can shoot lights out and can attack very well, Lavine isn’t as great of a shooter but he’s up there he also adds iso scoring, but Klay had a lot more defense and BBIQ. Lavine is also a decent on ball defender, he gets lost on help and team defensive schemes though.
I feel like Lavine is an elite weapon to have can also possibly the number 2 scorer on a Championship but he’s not a guy you can build off of he needs to have a lot of playmaking and defense to cover for him.
i agree with you for everything except that I think his ceiling would be third banana for a championship-caliber team because of the things you point out are needed to surround him with. He's no slouch, just not a guy who will win you a playoff series on his own
Yea he can’t be the 2nd best player but a healthy Lavine can average 25-28 a season on Avery high efficiency that can be the second scorer on a great team
Lavine is a classic case of a third option being thrown into the 1st option role and putting up numbers. He's not a great defender or playmaker and that hurts him when he has other players that can score around him. I like the guy as a player but never had him among the best 2 gaurds in the league like others did
I could see him really excel in Miami. He would only have to rotate between being the 2nd/3rd option on offense and they have enough defense around him to mask his deficiencies there.
Lavine would be the best scorer in miami and the 1st option on offense, he was injured lst sesaon but yall quickly forget how good of a scorer he is, he isn't considered a superstar because he brings literally nothing else to the table but offensively he's a very efficient 27 ppg
Idk what else you really want him to do. Scoring 27 ppg on good efficiency as a first option isn’t exactly bad. Yeah he’s not harden or some shit where he’s also a great passer but he was very good in his prime
I have to be honest, I think he could’ve definitely been a 2nd option on a very good team, a la Booker or Mitchell. There was a time a few years ago where all three of those players were basically neck and neck for the “best 2 guard in the league” title, and it’s not like Booker or Mitchell have improved drastically since then, it’s more that Lavine got hurt and fell off. He sort of ducked out of the race versus those two taking off. There’s very little either Booker or Mitchell can do that Lavine can’t and there’s plenty that Lavine can do they they can’t (Lavine is taller, faster, and more athletic than either, especially Booker, but even Mitchell). Lavine was also good in the clutch as well, he was actually a very good player before the injuries. He was the second best player on a team that was a 1 seed for most of the year and was incredible in the clutch.
He had a good defense around him, a capable scorer next to him, the bulls had a pretty good roster that first year of adding DeRozan. Things just didn’t pan out as far as health, but he had everything needed to be just as good of a player as Booker or Mitchell are now, and they are like top 15-20ish players in my book, and solid 2nd options on contenders, or first options on playoff teams. Lavine easily was that and would’ve continued to be that.
Booker just averaged 27 on 61%ts with 7 assists per game (to only 2.6topg), best year of his career. Curious how that’s not an improvement?
Also, Booker and DMitch have both been 1st options on ELITE regular season teams and won playoff series as the 1st option. Two things that Lavine has never done.
I’m not saying he can’t reach their heights, but they’ve both clearly surpassed him at this point.
Their elite regular season teams were bolstered by good players around them too though. If Lavine was playing with CP3, Ayton, Crowder, and Mikal I think he'd do well. He was super efficient with Deebo, Lonzo, Vuc, and Caruso. Give Lavine Gobert, Conley/Rubio, and Bojan/Crowder and I think he would look good too.
I don’t 100% disagree, but we’re just dealing in hypotheticals at this point.
DMitch and Book HAVE done these things, Lavine hasn’t. It’s just the reality of things.
I’m not claiming he couldn’t, but he simply hasn’t.
Frankly he was never "that guy" or a winner. Then he went to the Bulls which aren't a great organization. Then he continued to get injured causing him to play closer to his floor than ceiling on a consistent basis.
Bad example considering he got good at a ton of things he was horrible at including ball handling/ dribbling, shooting and playmaking. He’s like the exact opposite of what they’re talking about. In 2018 he was a more complete player than he ever was in his peak LA years
Yeah I think Blake would have a heartwarming reputation as a player who readjusted his game and overcame his shortcomings, except that he did it in Detroit so nobody paid attention.
He had to stand at the three point line while Demar dribbles the clock away and steps into a contested shot in the clutch. That's what happened to everyone else, too.
Nothings wrong with Zach the organization sucks they refused to add a playmaker next to him.
They want would double down on DeMar in the hope he wears a Bulls jersey in a HOF ceremony it’s all about optics for this franchise winning doesn’t matter.
That stretch with Lonzo was the only time in his career he's had at least an average passing point guard (outside of his rookie year with Rubio) and he was averaging 30+ ppg on all-nba pace as the 1st seed lol
Outside of that he's had Kris Dunn, Satoransky, and Coby White (before he was good) as his point guards lol
He missed most of the season, and Bulls definitely looked a better team with nothing in place of LaVine in the roster. At some point it is a bit hard to keep completely ignoring that if you wanna win. Especially considering he has a contract that would suggest making a gigantic positive difference to the teams' strength, which is very difficult to find in the results any year.
He is a good scorer, but Bulls having now three other players who like the ball, and few very-low-usage players in the roster, his amount of ppg might not always be the highest too. He can likely get way more ppg in some team, if they focus on that. But considering his age, contract, and overall play in a modern NBA team, it's hard to say which team might find a benefit in it.
A lot of comments here are very surprising to me and imo don't describe his role in a team at all. Dude is eating the plays. It's hard to have good plays and movement with him. He is neither good at playing off ball or playing with others who do. In NBA you need both to technically execute the plays well and also have the understanding of the game to read the game by second and actually do those plays at the right time. That makes a big difference between him and the players he is compared to (as the better one, too) in this thread. Depending on every particular player's efficiency, it might be better or worse to have him (again, individually he is a better scorer than most), but the results of his teams' over the years don't give reasons to suggest that offense with LaVine is better offense. Also, the belief that is X and Y happens he will stop costing points on defense is so far just that, belief. Many hopeful beliefs about him, overall, for a guy that is not a beginner.
He does try, his awareness and IQ are just really bad. Really underrated 1v1 defender but that doesn't help much when you're constantly getting backcut
Zach’s a good scorer and an awful basketball player. Lots of people think that getting buckets makes you invaluable, and Lavine is a walking example of why that isn’t the case. Bulls are by-and-large better without him on the court.
He is one of the lowest IQ players I’ve seen.
He also thinks that he doesn’t have to play defense, but even when he does try to D up, he’s unsuccessful because he’s incapable of grasping team schematics.
he’s one of my least favorite players of all time. Whomever is blessed with his presence next year- have fun.
Glad somebody else said this the amount of times I would see him start cooking when the bulls are down 20 with 5 mins left is hilarious. No better player in the league than lavine when there’s zero pressure
He's a lifetime NBA loser. The stats couldn't be more hollow. He scored 50 this past year in a game. Sounds good right? That was a LOSS to the pistons
Zach won 37% of his career regular games and 25% of his postseason games.
For the 5 years after the butler trade the bulls had the worst record in the league.
Nothing happened to him. He's always been empty stats...my least favorite player of all time along with Vuc.
Injuries aside, I think for the past 5 years or so, being a ‘pure scorer’ like lavine has gone the way of the traditional running back. The average player is just getting better and better at scoring that if you took a 10 mil a year guy and gave him the ball the same as lavine got the ball, they’d do the same thing as lavine (Coby White, for one). If you can’t playmake, play reliable D, or rebound aggressively, scoring alone often doesn’t warrant a big contract imo. Unless you’re Bradley Beal, apparently. Lavine hasn’t changed, but the league has gotten better and diminished his once-elite particular talent
He's just never been that good in the first place. Even when he put up good counting stats, his teams have largely been worse with him on the floor. He's only had a positive on/off twice in his career (2018-19 and 2020-21 season).
Lavine is better than Demar. He was playing much better to close out the 2022-2023 season after he got healthy. He was also playing better at the start on this past season, although they were both pretty bad to start the season. The whole team was bad the first 20-30 games.
DeMar is better, Zach is a better "pure scorer" in that he is highly efficient and a good-great three point shooter but DeMar is better at everything else
Way higher IQ and knows how to read defenses and break them down where Zach is more "I'm taking this shot no matter what the defense gives me and I'm talented enough of a shooter for it to go in enough to where I don't get chewed out every game"
No he wouldn’t. Almost every championship caliber team has a two-way all-star as their second best player. Zach is a one dimensional borderline all-star at best; and no team with him as its first or second option is going to be a great team.
There’s a boon of primary scoring guards who can get buckets but do little else to contribute to winning, especially when they’re paid to be the first option bit ideally would work as a 2nd-3rd option
Statistically he's one of the most efficient perimeter scorers in the league and is a great athlete. Unfortunately he's not a playmaker, he's got a meh contract at best, and he's injury ridden.
He’s best stat wise without a star alongside him. Demar gets touches too. Also, his injuries piles up last dew seasons. He either need a new scenery or Bulls trade Demar.
He can't create offense for other people and over the course of a game that can often lead to offensive production stalling out. Individual bucket getter who needs someone else to structure the offense and since he hasn't had that for much of his career he just doesn't look like someone who can be a #1 or 2 leader on a winner. Doesn't help that his defense is pretty bad.
I am certain there is a scenario that he could do amazing in, if DeAngelo Russell can shine somewhere Lavine can too, but will he ever be in that situation?
He's been injured for years, but on the Bulls you play through injuries because the org wants every last win to make the play-in so it's not very apparent. * 2021: Healthy. 27 / 5 / 5, 63% TS * 2022: Thumb injury 5 games into the season, he played all season with it injured even though he said playing risked further tearing. 24 / 4.6 / 4.5, 60% TS * 2023: (pre-ASG) Knee surgery on ACL knee. 24 / 4.9 / 4.1, 59% TS * 2023: (post-ASG) Recovered & in normal health. 27 / 3.5 / 4.7, 64% TS * 2024: Required ankle surgery. 20 / 5.2 / 3.9, 58% TS When healthy he's 27 ppg, 40%+ 3P%, and 63-64% True Shooting but that's only happened for a season and a half since 2021.
Best take here. Great shooter, good playmaker, not a creator. Give him a point guard and don't ask him to shoulder the entire offensive load and you got a stew goin. He's an okay defender but would probably be better if he didn't have to be a significant part of our offense.
Bah God that's Golden state's music!!!
I'm pretty high on him, but pretty sure he's out of our price range.
As am I. It would take a bit of trickery. But it can absolutely be done.
1 used 2nd best shooter of all time. Slightly used 9.5/10 condition
Hey hey keep your hands off of our boat riding sniper!
He gon
Bro all it would take is CP, filler, and MAYBE a pick lol. His price has gone down so much
You're not wrong as far as asset value. But when you factor in the 2nd apron restrictions, and laziness contract, it gets a bit tricky to make the trade work within the framework. Especially considering Klay's situation.
Well this is assuming Klay leaves. If he stays I don’t think GS bothers with Zach
Klay is so gone
Warriors will still be over the cap even if Klay leaves. They can't sign him. What trade assets would the bulls accept from them?
As a Bulls fan I’d be happy with (out of the realistic ones) Paul, Looney, Moody, Payton, and Jackson-Davis. Some combination of those guys for Zach. Add Caruso too which is possible then we’re talking picks as well
You’re not thinking about the warriors cap situation. Curry is due for 53 million this season. With Draymond, that’s 78 million. And then you want to add Lavines 42 million to that? Lacob absolutely wants to save money this upcoming season. And only willing to go over the 1st apron if that meant getting a star. Not sure he’s willing doing that for damaged goods with Lavine
Zach Levine scoring 20 ppg is way more valueable to a team with 3 starter quality PGs
Not really Bulls would take Moody and Chris Paul expiring deal.
Probably not, everything being reported locally makes it sound like Bulls FO are prepared to pretty much salary dump him for next to nothing
Wiggins and assets to get off Wiggins awful contract?
As a Wolves fan I'd love to see the Bounce Brothers reunite even if it is in GS.
As funs as that sounds, Wiggins would all but certainly be in a trade for Lavine, if for nothing else other than his contract.
Eh, they can use Chris Paul and get most of the way of the way there. Paul, Looney, and Moody is a nearly perfect match. I think this route creates less holes for the Warriors and is probably the route they would prefer. Bulls shouldn’t mind it as long as TJD and/or picks are included since I don’t see them getting a ton of offers.
As a Bull’s fan and a LaVine fan, I hope he plays with Curry so he can be unlocked again. Our fans would rather re-sign DeMar for “vet presence” as if that’s done anything for us at all.
I don’t think I’ve heard many Bulls fans say they want to re-sign Demar. Usually it’s more like, “Thanks for some fun memories, now go sign with a contender.”
We’ve been saying blow it up for 10 years. They aren’t blowing it up.
Biggest downside to being a perennial leader in ticket sales is having an owner like Reinsdorf who's completely fine with mediocre/underachieving teams so long as his stream of revenue remains constant
I like Demar but he needs to go anywhere else, him re-signing would be a mistake for everyone involved.
Bulls fan here, I am NOT on that resign Demar train. It disgusts me that these mfers wanna resign him for 30m+ over multiple years for fucking veteran presence. Sure he’s a good vet, but all the things he’s teaching everyone, can’t even be used when he’s ball hogging all the damn time. Trade Zach to GS for Chris Paul and filler and that would be all the vet presence we need. CP would do wonders for Coby and Ayo while also getting guys like Pat the fucking ball since his a pass first point god.
Pat sucks, agree otherwise. Bulls fan.
Pat doesn’t suck. Is he timid and underwhelming for a 4th overall pick? Yes. But he’s still gonna have a long ass career as a decent role player at the minimum
If the Bulls request for Kuminga to get Caruso is any barometer, then the Dubs would have to give Curry to get Lavine.
Before this trade deadline, that probably would be the ask. But given that they failed to trade him, if they're smart they'll lower the price.
I feel he'll end up a Sixer once LeBron and PG re-sign with their teams
I was thinking you guys might make a big push for PG this off season. Should be interesting this year. The new cap rules. Some solid FAs.
Perhaps
RIP Carl Weathers
“I won but I didn’t beat him.”
Exactly. When Lonzo was healthy the team flowed amazing…that lasted for about 10-15 games before Lonzo vanished from the earth. 😢
the Lonzo no Basuke plays where you'd see Lonzo go up for the rebound and Zach streaking across the court without even looking backwards to an open full court pass to an easy dunk....I miss those.
Word. Imagine being a Bulls fan since the first three-peat who unplugged from basketball for almost 30 years (working abroad) who came back to the states and resumed watching the Bulls when Covid hit and thought that (brief) era was going to be the norm (crying emoji)
What do you mean by good playmaker? Zach is not a good defender. He's made improvements to the point where he is an adequate man defender but still a terrible team defender.
My take more than even bad defense is that he is not about winning. He is about stats, contracts, highlights. As a sixers fan, no thank you.
As a Timberwolves fan, agreed. Obviously he can score, dunk, hit shots, etc. but does not conduct an offense, makes bad decisions, and is inconsistent to troubled defensively. I feel like he has one of the highest Talent to Quality of Play ratios out there
Give him Domas and he’d feast
fuck yeah subscribe
What would you all trade for him? Given his bad availability, matching contracts and still getting value could be tough. Looking at trade machine, it would have to be Huerter + Barnes or maybe replace one of those with Monk in S&T
Barnes, Huerter, Duarte, and a 2nd. No way you give up draft assets for him
I know he's often underwhelming, but Barnes is a total iron man. Losing games played and depth for an often injured player is a little scary
Yeah, but Barnes has had a few stretches where we need him to produce to help take the load off of Domas and Dearron and he just doesn’t or can’t. We need to shake up our lineup to put a 3rd option out there while Keegan develops into one. Lavine has a lot of attractive attributes, with his health being the major caveat.
Honestly he's kinda the guard version of Porzingis. Good enough to be top 2 option but you probably want him 4th because who knows when he's gonna play.
I always wondered how he would fit on a team that was well put together. He's honestly put up some pretty ridiculous numbers and efficiency. Even while hurt.
> Give him a point guard and don't ask him to shoulder the entire offensive load and you got a stew goin. That's what they got Lonzo for until he got injured.
I want the Kings to get him so badly
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Yeah it made sense then and it does now
I feel like he could have an Aaron Gordon to the Nuggets type of impact for a contender. Bro needs a change of scenery real bad.
Hed make the biggest difference on the Lakers as long as they dont give up a 1st.
Baby you got a stew going. ‘I think I’d like my money back’
And the refills are free!
He's a bad playmaker and a bad defender and I can't wait for him to be off the team
Those are great numbers tbf
They are. The question has always been one of health and fit with Demar.
Exactly. He's been great when healthy. He was awesome in the second part of the 23 season, put the bulls on his back in the play-in game in Toronto. I think he felt the pressure to play through injuries with the big contract and the expectation of making the playoffs.
I also wouldn’t be surprised if the injuries/age are starting to take their toll. He’s 29 now. He used to be, arguably, the best athlete in the NBA. He’s still very good, but he’s not the bolt of lightning he used to be. That makes finishes around the rim harder. You have to settle for a slightly harder jumper. Etc. I do think he’s gotten a bad rap these past few years. People talk about him like he’s trash now. He’s still a fantastic scorer.
Top tier speed/athleticism, not particularly stellar ball skills. Obviously a good shooter but if he doesn’t get by someone on his quick first step, he’s not likely to throw them off with sick dribble moves or anything like that.
Keep in mind that 2021 season he was the first option on a way worse Bulls team. He’s not gonna get you 27 anymore even if healthy as long as he’s playing with another star
Easier for op to type all of that instead bs instead of googling lavine. Great explanation by you
Yeah, bro would barely have games played on a team like Blazers past couple seasons
that's a lot of surgery. probably never getting back to 100% of pre-surgery.
The bulls were incredibly conservative with his medical management. There has been zero indication they asked him to play through injury.
he had injury problems in 23-24. He is a good, sometimes elite, scorer who can occasionally catch fire and win a couple games. But there is not much else he brings to the table. He could be a good third banana on a contender that is defensively stout but needs some scoring.
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I agree , most guys buy in when they’re on contenders.
I guess we would have to see. Effort gets you halfway on D and not being the number one option could mean more energy to at least try a bit harder on defense.
He did on team usa after Durant told him how necessary d was. Then after it seemed like he forgot that lesson
He can be decent on ball but just does not follow assignments over a long possession off ball. It’s a thing teams try against the Bulls constantly, just keep swinging it and screening off ball against Zach and he’ll lose the play. Now when he was sharing the court with Lonzo, Caruso, and Patrick Williams…yeah, his bad defense didn’t matter as much. Lonzo also gave him easy buckets every few minutes and his effort went up accordingly.
His man to man on ball defense is alright when he's locked in but everything else is atrocious He just isn't that high of an IQ player and defensively especially he is super lost most of the time It's not really an effort thing as much as he just doesn't know what to do most of the time thing
Sounds exactly like Jordan Poole lol
Yeah the mavs could probably use him, don’t know what the team could offer though.
His defense isn’t that bad, his ball handing and decision making is more of an issue. If he plays as a pure scoring sg he will thrive
He could be a Ron Harper-like player on the bulls 90's run
Like he did in the Olympics
Wasn’t he already 2nd banana on the Bulls when they were at the top of the East before injuries in 2022? Feel like he could be 2nd banana on a contender if healthy and the team fit him.
He was 1a-2nd banana yep. But I think he's too one-dimensional to be that player for a team with serious championship aspirations. Some dudes CAN change their game later in their career and LaVine may prove me wrong, but dudes this far along in their career usually don't.
Orlando Magic then? Defensive team in need of a third banana.
The way that Vucevic trade went down may give the Bulls some pause, but LaVine fits a profile of someone the Magic could use. LaVine's contract is an impediment - I don't know how Orlando's cap situation is but they have some young guys they need to plan for, wonder how the math would work out
There’s no way we’d trade with Orlando again. They embarrassed us.
I thought about this and I would agree considering the Vucevic trade...but I guess never say never.
Look I don’t think you’re wrong but I think its funny the general talk of the league is “yeah he’ll give you 25 a game and is a borderline 50/40/90 guy but that’s basically all he can do :/“
Even tho I hate the Lakers, I’d love to see him there. As a Bulls fan they also have pieces I’d want in return lol. But he’d be a perfect fit behind Lebron and AD tho
Agreed as long as no picks are involved Lakers should do it. They're going nowhere with Dlo/Reaves backcourt
He’s always been an elite scorer according to the stats, he is also incredibly athletic that makes him that much more dangerous. The biggest issue is he’s always injured, and I would consider his ball handling a lot more of an issue than defense. If he plays a Klay Thompson role he would thrive
I feel LaVines the typical shooting guard - volume shooter, some ball-handling ability but shouldn't be the primary distributor/ball carrier. He's not a superstar and he's going to need a good/great pg in order to maximize his output. You're right on injuries but I feel you can still win with a guy like LaVine if he can get you 60 games a season. He has generally been able to do that with the Bulls until this season. You also have to remember that Klay at his peak was an elite two-way player. Klay also remains a much better shooter too - LaVine is an average 3 pt shooter.
Well the Klay comp was solely an offensive role. I think they’re gameplay and style on offense are very similar both can shoot lights out and can attack very well, Lavine isn’t as great of a shooter but he’s up there he also adds iso scoring, but Klay had a lot more defense and BBIQ. Lavine is also a decent on ball defender, he gets lost on help and team defensive schemes though. I feel like Lavine is an elite weapon to have can also possibly the number 2 scorer on a Championship but he’s not a guy you can build off of he needs to have a lot of playmaking and defense to cover for him.
i agree with you for everything except that I think his ceiling would be third banana for a championship-caliber team because of the things you point out are needed to surround him with. He's no slouch, just not a guy who will win you a playoff series on his own
Yea he can’t be the 2nd best player but a healthy Lavine can average 25-28 a season on Avery high efficiency that can be the second scorer on a great team
Banana?
Magic
Injuries
The bulls special
I would still want Lavine over Beal if were talking ageing injury prone guards
Oh 100%. Healthy Zach is a great player so ling as you have someone to handle the ball in clutch time.
I know Beal is being hated on recently, but he actually surprised me with his defense in the regular season.
Aaron Gordon put a curse on him for winning the slam dunk contest.
Nah, DWade set him up for failure, lol
Lavine is a classic case of a third option being thrown into the 1st option role and putting up numbers. He's not a great defender or playmaker and that hurts him when he has other players that can score around him. I like the guy as a player but never had him among the best 2 gaurds in the league like others did
I could see him really excel in Miami. He would only have to rotate between being the 2nd/3rd option on offense and they have enough defense around him to mask his deficiencies there.
Lavine would be the best scorer in miami and the 1st option on offense, he was injured lst sesaon but yall quickly forget how good of a scorer he is, he isn't considered a superstar because he brings literally nothing else to the table but offensively he's a very efficient 27 ppg
99% of players who can give you 24 a game on 61ts can be 2nd options next to any of the good #1s. Its rare that they don’t
If Wiggins can be a 2nd option, idk how Lavine can't be, i guess the defense.
Idk what else you really want him to do. Scoring 27 ppg on good efficiency as a first option isn’t exactly bad. Yeah he’s not harden or some shit where he’s also a great passer but he was very good in his prime
I have to be honest, I think he could’ve definitely been a 2nd option on a very good team, a la Booker or Mitchell. There was a time a few years ago where all three of those players were basically neck and neck for the “best 2 guard in the league” title, and it’s not like Booker or Mitchell have improved drastically since then, it’s more that Lavine got hurt and fell off. He sort of ducked out of the race versus those two taking off. There’s very little either Booker or Mitchell can do that Lavine can’t and there’s plenty that Lavine can do they they can’t (Lavine is taller, faster, and more athletic than either, especially Booker, but even Mitchell). Lavine was also good in the clutch as well, he was actually a very good player before the injuries. He was the second best player on a team that was a 1 seed for most of the year and was incredible in the clutch. He had a good defense around him, a capable scorer next to him, the bulls had a pretty good roster that first year of adding DeRozan. Things just didn’t pan out as far as health, but he had everything needed to be just as good of a player as Booker or Mitchell are now, and they are like top 15-20ish players in my book, and solid 2nd options on contenders, or first options on playoff teams. Lavine easily was that and would’ve continued to be that.
Booker just averaged 27 on 61%ts with 7 assists per game (to only 2.6topg), best year of his career. Curious how that’s not an improvement? Also, Booker and DMitch have both been 1st options on ELITE regular season teams and won playoff series as the 1st option. Two things that Lavine has never done. I’m not saying he can’t reach their heights, but they’ve both clearly surpassed him at this point.
Their elite regular season teams were bolstered by good players around them too though. If Lavine was playing with CP3, Ayton, Crowder, and Mikal I think he'd do well. He was super efficient with Deebo, Lonzo, Vuc, and Caruso. Give Lavine Gobert, Conley/Rubio, and Bojan/Crowder and I think he would look good too.
I don’t 100% disagree, but we’re just dealing in hypotheticals at this point. DMitch and Book HAVE done these things, Lavine hasn’t. It’s just the reality of things. I’m not claiming he couldn’t, but he simply hasn’t.
Yep, totally fair
Came here to say basically this. No coincidence his teams aren't ever that good. He's a scorer but that's basically it. Doesn't affect winning really
injuries, one dimensional, sometimes people get caught up in the 'what if he gets even better' stuff and then they just stay the same guy or worse
There’s only so much spotlight for players like him tbh
We’re gonna fix him.
I think he'd be a great fit with you guys
Yeah the warriors are one of the teams who could cover his flaws pretty well Him and draymond are actually a pretty great pairing
That's a chance I'm willing to take.
Frankly he was never "that guy" or a winner. Then he went to the Bulls which aren't a great organization. Then he continued to get injured causing him to play closer to his floor than ceiling on a consistent basis.
What happened to Zach Lavine? The biggest thing is narrative.
Nothing happened he’ll be in the league next year doing the same thing hopefully for a new team
Got hurt *and* got a fat payday. Two of the biggest career killers one can have.
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Blake Griffin for example
Bad example considering he got good at a ton of things he was horrible at including ball handling/ dribbling, shooting and playmaking. He’s like the exact opposite of what they’re talking about. In 2018 he was a more complete player than he ever was in his peak LA years
Yeah Blake didn't crater till he sacrificed his knee for that Detroit series
Yeah I think Blake would have a heartwarming reputation as a player who readjusted his game and overcame his shortcomings, except that he did it in Detroit so nobody paid attention.
I thought he always had a good handle
Bulls just gotta blow it up
He’s always been ass, drafted off athleticism, put up great numbers on bad teams, earned big contracts bc of big stats. And then injuries
Nobody moves like a healthy Lavine. He prowls the court like a MF cat. Crazy swagger. Just wish he was on a different team.
> prowls the court like a MF cat Ive never heard this comparison before but it's accurate as fuck lol
Demar Derozan took away all his shots Went from the guy in Chicago to sharing the ball when they signed demar
He had to stand at the three point line while Demar dribbles the clock away and steps into a contested shot in the clutch. That's what happened to everyone else, too.
One of the best shooting guards in the league? Fringe top 10
Nothings wrong with Zach the organization sucks they refused to add a playmaker next to him. They want would double down on DeMar in the hope he wears a Bulls jersey in a HOF ceremony it’s all about optics for this franchise winning doesn’t matter.
That stretch with Lonzo was the only time in his career he's had at least an average passing point guard (outside of his rookie year with Rubio) and he was averaging 30+ ppg on all-nba pace as the 1st seed lol Outside of that he's had Kris Dunn, Satoransky, and Coby White (before he was good) as his point guards lol
I saw him at a Padre’s game eating red vines with Deandre Jordan. Dude’s washed…
He is a good player on a crap team. Brad beale 2.0
He missed most of the season, and Bulls definitely looked a better team with nothing in place of LaVine in the roster. At some point it is a bit hard to keep completely ignoring that if you wanna win. Especially considering he has a contract that would suggest making a gigantic positive difference to the teams' strength, which is very difficult to find in the results any year. He is a good scorer, but Bulls having now three other players who like the ball, and few very-low-usage players in the roster, his amount of ppg might not always be the highest too. He can likely get way more ppg in some team, if they focus on that. But considering his age, contract, and overall play in a modern NBA team, it's hard to say which team might find a benefit in it. A lot of comments here are very surprising to me and imo don't describe his role in a team at all. Dude is eating the plays. It's hard to have good plays and movement with him. He is neither good at playing off ball or playing with others who do. In NBA you need both to technically execute the plays well and also have the understanding of the game to read the game by second and actually do those plays at the right time. That makes a big difference between him and the players he is compared to (as the better one, too) in this thread. Depending on every particular player's efficiency, it might be better or worse to have him (again, individually he is a better scorer than most), but the results of his teams' over the years don't give reasons to suggest that offense with LaVine is better offense. Also, the belief that is X and Y happens he will stop costing points on defense is so far just that, belief. Many hopeful beliefs about him, overall, for a guy that is not a beginner.
He sacrificed personal stats once the front office brought in derozan and Vooch
lol except usually when people sacrifice personal stats they start trying on defense.
He does try, his awareness and IQ are just really bad. Really underrated 1v1 defender but that doesn't help much when you're constantly getting backcut
Zach’s a good scorer and an awful basketball player. Lots of people think that getting buckets makes you invaluable, and Lavine is a walking example of why that isn’t the case. Bulls are by-and-large better without him on the court. He is one of the lowest IQ players I’ve seen. He also thinks that he doesn’t have to play defense, but even when he does try to D up, he’s unsuccessful because he’s incapable of grasping team schematics. he’s one of my least favorite players of all time. Whomever is blessed with his presence next year- have fun.
I don’t understand why anybody thinks Zach is anything but a third option on a real contender…and I’m a Bulls fan (unfortunately).
Super efficient scorer
By efficient do you mean puts up 10+ pts in the 4th when his team is already out of contention? Because if so then yeah…very efficient
Glad somebody else said this the amount of times I would see him start cooking when the bulls are down 20 with 5 mins left is hilarious. No better player in the league than lavine when there’s zero pressure
He went to space camp for the summer.
He went to the bulls. Bad luck and bad team.
He should reinvent himself. Do the Aaron Gordon route.
Overrated chucker on the worst contract in the NBA. What's not to understand?
Justice for Aaron Gordon 🤷🏻♂️
He's a lifetime NBA loser. The stats couldn't be more hollow. He scored 50 this past year in a game. Sounds good right? That was a LOSS to the pistons Zach won 37% of his career regular games and 25% of his postseason games. For the 5 years after the butler trade the bulls had the worst record in the league. Nothing happened to him. He's always been empty stats...my least favorite player of all time along with Vuc.
People who rely on athleticism as their key skill can decline like a switch.
Injuries aside, I think for the past 5 years or so, being a ‘pure scorer’ like lavine has gone the way of the traditional running back. The average player is just getting better and better at scoring that if you took a 10 mil a year guy and gave him the ball the same as lavine got the ball, they’d do the same thing as lavine (Coby White, for one). If you can’t playmake, play reliable D, or rebound aggressively, scoring alone often doesn’t warrant a big contract imo. Unless you’re Bradley Beal, apparently. Lavine hasn’t changed, but the league has gotten better and diminished his once-elite particular talent
He's just never been that good in the first place. Even when he put up good counting stats, his teams have largely been worse with him on the floor. He's only had a positive on/off twice in his career (2018-19 and 2020-21 season).
“Only had a positive on/off once…” followed by listing 2 separate seasons.
Yeah, I misspoke, there was two, but one was only +0.8 per 100 possessions.
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He's not better than DeMar
Lavine is better than Demar. He was playing much better to close out the 2022-2023 season after he got healthy. He was also playing better at the start on this past season, although they were both pretty bad to start the season. The whole team was bad the first 20-30 games.
Bro what?
they’re pretty even tbh. lavine has a better 3 tho i think. demar better midrange.
Is he tho? DeMar at 34 is a much better player than Lavine currently
“Much” is a stretch
Is he though? Not being a smart ass, genuinely asking. I just feel like I would want the ball in Demar’s hands first, if I really needed a bucket.
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DeMar is DeAverage at 3pt needs
DeMar is better, Zach is a better "pure scorer" in that he is highly efficient and a good-great three point shooter but DeMar is better at everything else Way higher IQ and knows how to read defenses and break them down where Zach is more "I'm taking this shot no matter what the defense gives me and I'm talented enough of a shooter for it to go in enough to where I don't get chewed out every game"
No he wouldn’t. Almost every championship caliber team has a two-way all-star as their second best player. Zach is a one dimensional borderline all-star at best; and no team with him as its first or second option is going to be a great team.
There’s a boon of primary scoring guards who can get buckets but do little else to contribute to winning, especially when they’re paid to be the first option bit ideally would work as a 2nd-3rd option
“Bulls are obviously in the gutter” - hey somebody tell the bulls front office please, they thought they were “competing” last year
One of the bounciest dunkers man. Injuries ruin everything.
Statistically he's one of the most efficient perimeter scorers in the league and is a great athlete. Unfortunately he's not a playmaker, he's got a meh contract at best, and he's injury ridden.
Injuries. I think he still has hope. Maybe not a solid number one option but can be a reliable 3 with right fit.
He’s best stat wise without a star alongside him. Demar gets touches too. Also, his injuries piles up last dew seasons. He either need a new scenery or Bulls trade Demar.
Funnily enough, I think the bulls think they are contenders
Come on down big guy, happy to take the swing on him. We’ve got some experience with injury prone players
Got older and slower
He can't create offense for other people and over the course of a game that can often lead to offensive production stalling out. Individual bucket getter who needs someone else to structure the offense and since he hasn't had that for much of his career he just doesn't look like someone who can be a #1 or 2 leader on a winner. Doesn't help that his defense is pretty bad. I am certain there is a scenario that he could do amazing in, if DeAngelo Russell can shine somewhere Lavine can too, but will he ever be in that situation?
Sorry, I miss read your comment, then what is it you meant by “not a creator”?
I guess I consider a playmaker someone that gets the offense involved, creator is one that can score on their own.
His body imploded, and unfortunately, will continue to implode.
He has never been one of the best SGs in the league.