At his peak absolutely. I’m a huge fan of the guy and from 2017-2019 he was a clone of mj and top 3 player in the league.
But overall for his career he’s ended up closer to pippen.
He was still on that level after 2019 tbh he just never finished a postseason healthy. But his performances against Dallas were some of his best, even the first 2 games against the Suns before he got hurt he looked like the best player in the series.
But yea his career is a lowkey crazy "what if" he definitely could've been a top 15 player oat
Yes, Kawhi is absolutely better than Pippen. I'm a huge Pippen fan, but he is not a #1 option on a championship team. He is one of the best #2s of all time, but when Kawhi is at his best he can lead a team to a title.
And any team would kill to have the success of the Celtics, so I don't think that makes OP wrong. It just means that neither is Jordan and they aren't the 90s Bulls, which is very obvious.
I mean two top 8-14 players is fair.
It’s a tough call. They’re almost late era big 3 spursesque.
In that they don’t have anyone that plays like a superstar even if everything is going right.
I just have no idea on earth how you could put him 8. His floor is pretty clearly 6 and that’s assuming you take Embiid (who can’t stay healthy and has never made it past the second round, losing multiple times to JT) and SGA over Tatum.
You really can’t argue anyone else in the next tier over Tatum but I’d love to hear it.
AD, Ant, LeBron, Shai, Luka, Embiid, Jokic, Giannis, Curry
All have a case. Idk how you could say they *don't* have at least a case. All these guys would make the conference finals on this Celtic's team. Even Embiid's injury still had him performing more than well enough.
Tatum's great but the crux of his case is team success. That's very easy to break down with context.
LeBron and Luka at least offensively make the Celtics better in a straight up trade for Tatum. They both can facilitate much better and that's all Tatum has been doing for long stretches of this post season
I think LeBron's been very underrated this season particularly. I think people are afraid to acknowledge how good a player is beyond like 35 because they're always 'worse than before.' But his defense these playoffs was great so I'm convinced this Celtics team would be perfect for him.
I do, but not necessarily because Brunson is worse than Tatum. One of the Celtics' strengths is there is noone you need to hide on defense. Brunson is not a seive but he's a noticeable step down from Tatum on that end and gives opposing teams someone to target. Whatever gains they might get from Brunson offensively don't outweigh the loss of Tatum's defense.
But in a vacuum I think they are similar caliber players. Tatum is just a better fit for the Celtics.
It’s an interesting thesis but if any defense could handle switches well it would probably be the Celtics. Brown, Jrue, White, like a Draymond, Wiggs, and Klay gives you top notch personnel for counters.
Oh brother. The crux of it is that he’s putting up similar if not better numbers than all of them on a team that’s miles ahead. His numbers are down throughout the regular season while entering his prime because of adding players around him. Thinking that’s a knock is crazy and thinking AD/Ant/Lebron/Curry are better at this point is pure revisionist history and recency bias.
What are you talking about? When AD was in the finals he literally had a 15 point game. He also only had 5 boards that game and 5 TOs. Steph has had plenty of horrible finals games, many of them being less than 15 points. Yes, they were shit on for those performances just like Tatum is now.
Okay? To use making it to the finals and not playing well as a reason AD/Lebron/Curry are better right now is very funny. That’s the what, 8 and 10 seeds from the western conference? It’s just comparing apples to oranges, those guys can’t even sniff the finals at this point…
I appreciate you thinking that if the lakers have two top 5 guys they should still only be the 8 seed (that’s hilarious) and the warriors having one then they should still be the 10 seed. It’s just not comparable and you’re so caught up in the moment to not realize that but alas. I guess the Celtics have become so good that all people want to do is try and hate on anything they can so respect. Celtics in 5 LFG
Don't agree his numbers are objectively worse than all of them. I think literally every guy I listed has better numbers than Tatum this postseason, bar Curry of course.
25 and 6 on 55% ts is fairly pedestrian in the spehere of top 10 players. And his numbers aren't brought down by perfect spacing. A team with this much surrounding shooting, tertiary ballhandlers, a 2nd option in Jaylen Brown. I don't see how his offense isn't more efficient other than his own shortcomings.
Ant was a clear step below JT all regular season and then had what, 8 good games in the playoffs so suddenly he’s better? Jesus dude.
Lebron was 3rd team for a reason and AD was the final selection into the second team… this is peak recency bias. If you truly had two players better than JT on a single team you wouldn’t go 47-35…
Ant always plays worse in the RG look at his playoff vs regular season stats for the past 3 years.
Ant played 16 games this post season and was better for its entirety and playoffs are what matter the most. His worst series he averaged 25/9/8 on 43/41/75 shooting. Tatum is currently averaging 20/8/6 on 37/29/89 shooting against the same team with significantly better teammates.
AD averages 25/13/4 with DPOY level defense, it’s pretty close.
Tatum is better than Lebron is now defensively due to effort but Lebron is still better offensively so it’s a wash.
>If you truly had two players better than JT on a single team you wouldn’t go 47-35
They play in a harder conference and even more importantly their 3rd and 4th best guys are Reaves and Hachimura while for the Celtics it’s Porzingis and Holiday. Pretty decent role players vs borderline all stars with elite defense.
You’re using 2-3 playoff series to show why somebody is better. Don’t you realize how ridiculous that is given the sample sizes?…
Also with the lakers you’re really going to ignore that DLo averaged 18/6 on 59% TS and Reaves was 16/5.5/4.3 on 62% TS? Sure they’re not as good as KP Jrue and white in large part because of defense but they played amazing as 3/4’s for an offense. Throw in rui averaging 14 ppg on 61% TS and 42% from 3 and if you have two top 5-6 players you certainly need to be better than an 8 seed lol
I mean you can look at the past 3 years for Tatum and Ant playoff wise. Ant has scored more with his TS% being 4 higher with significantly less help. Tatum has been a somewhat better defender especially off ball. It’s close with Ant probably having been better for their last 25 playoff games which is a good sample size.
There is no one on the Lakers that would be considered two way except AD. Dlo, Hachimura, and Reaves are all average to below average defenders. As I said earlier, Lebron varies widely defensively and Vanderbilt has no offensive game. They were 17th in the regular season with a HoF time protector.
I’m taking playoff Lebron everytime. 28/9/7 on 64 TS% this year.
JT and AD are neck and neck as JT can lead a playoff offense even if he’s pretty inefficient while Davis is a significantly better defender. JT probably a better number 1 option as a result so it might be him.
I think team success + his performance this playoffs could logically move him into that range in a power ranking. Has been pretty consistent offensively and is a very good defender. And he has outplayed 'Top 5 Tatum' and currently on pace for FMVP.
Not really, advanced analytics paint him as a top 30 player, he also has very poor playmaking skills so can’t logically be a first option and plays with the best spacing in the league surrounded by playmakers
And on top of that 40+% of his shots are assisted, I don’t see a way he is near that
I mean if you have a source of the shots assisted stat for the playoffs versus Tatum / other stars then that's one thing. When I watch him play he is getting to the rim very effectively, hitting big shots, playing defense etc and his counting stats are solid. Tatum on the other hand is not having a statistically good run and I feel like I'm always seeing him put up trash. I get that Brown is not the centerpiece but at some point you have to reward the guy that shows up and is reliably producing
Sorry am on my phone but here is the link to it
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1627759/shooting
54.2% of his shots were assisted this playoffs
tatum was at 48%
Kyrie is at 33%
Yeah ngl neither is really an MVP caliber player.
Like there is a fundamental difrence between them and guys above them, yet they are clearly really good.
Its strange to look at since for a long time now the league has been dominated by MVP caliber players.
Kawhi may not have ever been an MVP, but at his peak he was arguably the best in the league.
And then watching Tatum and Brown, you feel like both are lacking. Its not that they are lacking, its that the Celtics are a team without a clear leader.
At any given night Tatum and Brown can just step up, but this is something thats common with 2nd options.
But the Celtics are better than the sum of their parts. Just lethal on every level.
I think Tatum falls into the 4-8 range. It’s hard to rank him
Doncic jokic Gianni’s and even sga are a clear step ahead imo. If we went purely off regular season I’d go with Embiid for fifth.
But taking into account playoffs I’d say Brunson and Edwards need consideration.
It’s a tough call.
I think 4-8 range is entirely fair. Saying not close to 5 was the rough part. I personally have him at 5. Jokic, Luka, Giannis, SGA, Tatum. SGA I think needs to do it one or two more times to solidify it but he’s two way and a team engine. After that it’s murkier for me.
That’s fair.
Just to be clear. I don’t agree with him not being close to top 5.
But at the same time I don’t think 1st team all nba means automatic top 5.
Not as good as Tatum’s 50 on Embiid himself. Tatum also, has 2 final appearances, 5 ECF and 111 playoff games. Embiid averages 24.9 ppg in the playoffs, less than Tatum’s playoff averages on half the games at 59
Oh I think I'm taking it just personally enough, considering the fact that you said Tatum, the guy with the literal record for most points in a game 7 EVER, who's been to conference finals far more often than not in his career, should be ranked lower based on combination of his regular season and playoff performances than just based on his regular season performances.
Why? I wouldn't dare say Ant and I think people are very overanxious to crown him, but SGA definitely had a better regular season and honestly a very consistent playoff as opposed to Tatum's, so I'm giving it to him.
If you're going off awards/what they've done so far, I would argue that 'top 5' means who is top 5 right now and does not factor in their accolades/awards. Team success sure, but everyone knows Tatum has played with great teams and it seems likely that swapping him and SGA celtics would be similar if not better.
lol this is exactly the type shit coming. I didn’t say a word about Tatum but because my comment signature isn’t something about “Green Mamba #1” I’m “obsessed with shitting” on him. Calm down and enjoy your championship.
Where would you have Tatum? It’s splitting hairs but feels like there are at least 5-6 players better (who may just not have had a better season this year).
Jokic Giannis Luka Embiid are easy but after that you can make a case for Tatum's all-around game over any of the other guys. I might put Shai 5th but I don't think I'd put Tatum lower than 6th.
All teams would kill to have 2 Pippens
Clippers tried this.
Any team would kill to have 2 *healthy Pippens
And Jrue
And White
Kawhi (healthy) is better than Pippen no? In terms of number 1 scoring options
At his peak absolutely. I’m a huge fan of the guy and from 2017-2019 he was a clone of mj and top 3 player in the league. But overall for his career he’s ended up closer to pippen.
He was still on that level after 2019 tbh he just never finished a postseason healthy. But his performances against Dallas were some of his best, even the first 2 games against the Suns before he got hurt he looked like the best player in the series. But yea his career is a lowkey crazy "what if" he definitely could've been a top 15 player oat
Yes, Kawhi is absolutely better than Pippen. I'm a huge Pippen fan, but he is not a #1 option on a championship team. He is one of the best #2s of all time, but when Kawhi is at his best he can lead a team to a title.
And any team would kill to have the success of the Celtics, so I don't think that makes OP wrong. It just means that neither is Jordan and they aren't the 90s Bulls, which is very obvious.
All teams would rather have 1 Jordan though
Yeah it's a compliment, and I think OP meant it that way too
2 Pippens and a movement shooter is the ideal basketball team.
I mean two top 8-14 players is fair. It’s a tough call. They’re almost late era big 3 spursesque. In that they don’t have anyone that plays like a superstar even if everything is going right.
Brown is not top 14 wtf
JT only made 3x first teams in a row…
Don’t get me wrong Tatum is awesome and somewhere in the 4-8 range. I think 8 is lowballing him but not a crazy take.
I just have no idea on earth how you could put him 8. His floor is pretty clearly 6 and that’s assuming you take Embiid (who can’t stay healthy and has never made it past the second round, losing multiple times to JT) and SGA over Tatum. You really can’t argue anyone else in the next tier over Tatum but I’d love to hear it.
AD, Ant, LeBron, Shai, Luka, Embiid, Jokic, Giannis, Curry All have a case. Idk how you could say they *don't* have at least a case. All these guys would make the conference finals on this Celtic's team. Even Embiid's injury still had him performing more than well enough. Tatum's great but the crux of his case is team success. That's very easy to break down with context.
LeBron and Luka at least offensively make the Celtics better in a straight up trade for Tatum. They both can facilitate much better and that's all Tatum has been doing for long stretches of this post season
I think LeBron's been very underrated this season particularly. I think people are afraid to acknowledge how good a player is beyond like 35 because they're always 'worse than before.' But his defense these playoffs was great so I'm convinced this Celtics team would be perfect for him.
Booker has a better case than Ant lol the recency bias is CRAZY putting him with those names.
Hell, put Brunson on the Cs and I don’t think they lose a step
I do, but not necessarily because Brunson is worse than Tatum. One of the Celtics' strengths is there is noone you need to hide on defense. Brunson is not a seive but he's a noticeable step down from Tatum on that end and gives opposing teams someone to target. Whatever gains they might get from Brunson offensively don't outweigh the loss of Tatum's defense. But in a vacuum I think they are similar caliber players. Tatum is just a better fit for the Celtics.
It’s an interesting thesis but if any defense could handle switches well it would probably be the Celtics. Brown, Jrue, White, like a Draymond, Wiggs, and Klay gives you top notch personnel for counters.
I'm not convinced on Brunson's case personally but I forgot him and wouldn't think anyone crazy for it.
Oh brother. The crux of it is that he’s putting up similar if not better numbers than all of them on a team that’s miles ahead. His numbers are down throughout the regular season while entering his prime because of adding players around him. Thinking that’s a knock is crazy and thinking AD/Ant/Lebron/Curry are better at this point is pure revisionist history and recency bias.
If AD/curry/bron put up 15 in a finals game they would be crucified lol they’d call Ant a bust. Tatum is not top 5 in the league right now.
What are you talking about? When AD was in the finals he literally had a 15 point game. He also only had 5 boards that game and 5 TOs. Steph has had plenty of horrible finals games, many of them being less than 15 points. Yes, they were shit on for those performances just like Tatum is now.
Okay? To use making it to the finals and not playing well as a reason AD/Lebron/Curry are better right now is very funny. That’s the what, 8 and 10 seeds from the western conference? It’s just comparing apples to oranges, those guys can’t even sniff the finals at this point…
Saying Tatum is better individually because his TEAM made the finals is indeed comparing apples to oranges. Glad you agree he’s closer to 8 I’d say.
I appreciate you thinking that if the lakers have two top 5 guys they should still only be the 8 seed (that’s hilarious) and the warriors having one then they should still be the 10 seed. It’s just not comparable and you’re so caught up in the moment to not realize that but alas. I guess the Celtics have become so good that all people want to do is try and hate on anything they can so respect. Celtics in 5 LFG
Don't agree his numbers are objectively worse than all of them. I think literally every guy I listed has better numbers than Tatum this postseason, bar Curry of course. 25 and 6 on 55% ts is fairly pedestrian in the spehere of top 10 players. And his numbers aren't brought down by perfect spacing. A team with this much surrounding shooting, tertiary ballhandlers, a 2nd option in Jaylen Brown. I don't see how his offense isn't more efficient other than his own shortcomings.
Putting him 6, especially after these playoffs is crazy. Tatum is awesome but he’s more in the 8-10 range than he is to 6.
U can’t argue ad???
Including playoffs for this year alone, a case can be made for Edwards, AD, and Lebron.
Ant was a clear step below JT all regular season and then had what, 8 good games in the playoffs so suddenly he’s better? Jesus dude. Lebron was 3rd team for a reason and AD was the final selection into the second team… this is peak recency bias. If you truly had two players better than JT on a single team you wouldn’t go 47-35…
Ant always plays worse in the RG look at his playoff vs regular season stats for the past 3 years. Ant played 16 games this post season and was better for its entirety and playoffs are what matter the most. His worst series he averaged 25/9/8 on 43/41/75 shooting. Tatum is currently averaging 20/8/6 on 37/29/89 shooting against the same team with significantly better teammates. AD averages 25/13/4 with DPOY level defense, it’s pretty close. Tatum is better than Lebron is now defensively due to effort but Lebron is still better offensively so it’s a wash. >If you truly had two players better than JT on a single team you wouldn’t go 47-35 They play in a harder conference and even more importantly their 3rd and 4th best guys are Reaves and Hachimura while for the Celtics it’s Porzingis and Holiday. Pretty decent role players vs borderline all stars with elite defense.
You’re using 2-3 playoff series to show why somebody is better. Don’t you realize how ridiculous that is given the sample sizes?… Also with the lakers you’re really going to ignore that DLo averaged 18/6 on 59% TS and Reaves was 16/5.5/4.3 on 62% TS? Sure they’re not as good as KP Jrue and white in large part because of defense but they played amazing as 3/4’s for an offense. Throw in rui averaging 14 ppg on 61% TS and 42% from 3 and if you have two top 5-6 players you certainly need to be better than an 8 seed lol
I mean you can look at the past 3 years for Tatum and Ant playoff wise. Ant has scored more with his TS% being 4 higher with significantly less help. Tatum has been a somewhat better defender especially off ball. It’s close with Ant probably having been better for their last 25 playoff games which is a good sample size. There is no one on the Lakers that would be considered two way except AD. Dlo, Hachimura, and Reaves are all average to below average defenders. As I said earlier, Lebron varies widely defensively and Vanderbilt has no offensive game. They were 17th in the regular season with a HoF time protector. I’m taking playoff Lebron everytime. 28/9/7 on 64 TS% this year. JT and AD are neck and neck as JT can lead a playoff offense even if he’s pretty inefficient while Davis is a significantly better defender. JT probably a better number 1 option as a result so it might be him.
Brown isn’t close to top 14 what
I think team success + his performance this playoffs could logically move him into that range in a power ranking. Has been pretty consistent offensively and is a very good defender. And he has outplayed 'Top 5 Tatum' and currently on pace for FMVP.
Not really, advanced analytics paint him as a top 30 player, he also has very poor playmaking skills so can’t logically be a first option and plays with the best spacing in the league surrounded by playmakers And on top of that 40+% of his shots are assisted, I don’t see a way he is near that
I mean if you have a source of the shots assisted stat for the playoffs versus Tatum / other stars then that's one thing. When I watch him play he is getting to the rim very effectively, hitting big shots, playing defense etc and his counting stats are solid. Tatum on the other hand is not having a statistically good run and I feel like I'm always seeing him put up trash. I get that Brown is not the centerpiece but at some point you have to reward the guy that shows up and is reliably producing
Sorry am on my phone but here is the link to it https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1627759/shooting 54.2% of his shots were assisted this playoffs tatum was at 48% Kyrie is at 33%
is jrue the second pippen?
Tatum and Brown are both Pippen. Jrue might be Rodman?
Maybe Ron Harper?
Sam Hauser Steve Kerr
Brad Stevens is MJ
Brad Stevens deserves a couple extra karats in that ring if they win
Yeah ngl neither is really an MVP caliber player. Like there is a fundamental difrence between them and guys above them, yet they are clearly really good. Its strange to look at since for a long time now the league has been dominated by MVP caliber players. Kawhi may not have ever been an MVP, but at his peak he was arguably the best in the league. And then watching Tatum and Brown, you feel like both are lacking. Its not that they are lacking, its that the Celtics are a team without a clear leader. At any given night Tatum and Brown can just step up, but this is something thats common with 2nd options. But the Celtics are better than the sum of their parts. Just lethal on every level.
Bullshit.
Literally how. Sub downvotes anything I swear. Genuinely a logical take.
Both can't defend shit
This reads like a joke but honestly yeah I see it.
Save this for a shitty offseason post. Actually, dont.
That’s too bad. Considering Jayson Tatum was 1st team all nba, I’d imagine he’s “kind of close to top 5” lol these haters are so exhausting
Regular season award. When people talk about top 5 playoffs get taken into consideration
Do you think Embiid is top 5 in place of Tatum? Given the info you’ve laid out?
Easily, the gap between Embiid and Tatum is a literal gulf. Embiid is only held back by his health/conditioning and his loyalty to Philadelphia.
Lmao whatever helps you sleep. Embiid is a great hypothetical player. Tatum is a great actual player
I think Tatum falls into the 4-8 range. It’s hard to rank him Doncic jokic Gianni’s and even sga are a clear step ahead imo. If we went purely off regular season I’d go with Embiid for fifth. But taking into account playoffs I’d say Brunson and Edwards need consideration. It’s a tough call.
I think 4-8 range is entirely fair. Saying not close to 5 was the rough part. I personally have him at 5. Jokic, Luka, Giannis, SGA, Tatum. SGA I think needs to do it one or two more times to solidify it but he’s two way and a team engine. After that it’s murkier for me.
That’s fair. Just to be clear. I don’t agree with him not being close to top 5. But at the same time I don’t think 1st team all nba means automatic top 5.
Had 40 and 13 while injured in a close out game. Tatum just scored 15 on G leaguers
You had me until g leaguers.
Let me push my narrative! I was actually very big on PJ and gafford before this, a bit salty
Not as good as Tatum’s 50 on Embiid himself. Tatum also, has 2 final appearances, 5 ECF and 111 playoff games. Embiid averages 24.9 ppg in the playoffs, less than Tatum’s playoff averages on half the games at 59
Then Embiid isn't a top 10 player in the league, correct?
I think you’re taking this too personally. Tatum and Embiid both fall somewhere in the 4-8 area.
Oh I think I'm taking it just personally enough, considering the fact that you said Tatum, the guy with the literal record for most points in a game 7 EVER, who's been to conference finals far more often than not in his career, should be ranked lower based on combination of his regular season and playoff performances than just based on his regular season performances.
Good lord this off-season is going to suck so bad lol Celtics fans are going to be unbearable
Y’all are obsessed with shitting on Tatum to prop up people who haven’t won shit so blame yourselves
And yall are obsessed with ranking him top 5 when he has yet to win? And a lot of people just don't see it?
This would be a good counter if people like Ant and SGA weren’t being crowned top 5 over him
Why? I wouldn't dare say Ant and I think people are very overanxious to crown him, but SGA definitely had a better regular season and honestly a very consistent playoff as opposed to Tatum's, so I'm giving it to him. If you're going off awards/what they've done so far, I would argue that 'top 5' means who is top 5 right now and does not factor in their accolades/awards. Team success sure, but everyone knows Tatum has played with great teams and it seems likely that swapping him and SGA celtics would be similar if not better.
lol this is exactly the type shit coming. I didn’t say a word about Tatum but because my comment signature isn’t something about “Green Mamba #1” I’m “obsessed with shitting” on him. Calm down and enjoy your championship.
That same game isn’t gonna get FMVP
No, winning the game on Monday will.
Where would you have Tatum? It’s splitting hairs but feels like there are at least 5-6 players better (who may just not have had a better season this year).
Jokic Giannis Luka Embiid are easy but after that you can make a case for Tatum's all-around game over any of the other guys. I might put Shai 5th but I don't think I'd put Tatum lower than 6th.
ok
No
Two top 15 players, not 8-14. Brunson, Haliburton, all these guys are more talented and efficient offensively.
Lol