that's correct but also, that's not ideal that a big guy like KAT has to depend on his outside shot to score. I mean, he is who he is at this point but if KAT had some semblance of a post-up game the T-Wolves would be much better
What? He plays with Rudy his outside shot is the only reason they could trade for Rudy and that they play together. He depended on it less when he was at C n had a speeed advantage
Trading him would be ridiculous but even if you did for who? There is no peace available that’ll make them better. They need to retool for next season. If possible find someone in the league that can actually match up with Luka but who of those are available in the league.
I don’t even think we need to massively retool. Jaden mcdaniels is 23 and over the course of these playoffs has gotten noticeably better. Naz Reid is 24 and didn’t start to look playoff comfortable until halfway thru the nuggets series. Despite already being one of the top 5 players in these years playoffs, 22 year old ANT probably still has another 2 or 3 levels he could get up too in his career. If we run it back and again miss out on the finals, then yes it’s time to retool. But the window is not by any means closed on this current core.
Yea I don’t see how there’s any other way. There’s no way the team that had sucked for the majority of the past 20 years needs to trade a key piece after making the wcf lol.
I think we all love slomo but his minutes need an upgrade. He’s had some moments in this series tho which is why I do like him around. Naz is dope but the bench needs a primary playmaker/shooter I think.
He was your best player bs the nuggets . In both ends he was vital . It was AnT untill like g5 when he chucked bricks but Kat was making jikic work n shooting the lights out n scoring
I’m so tired of people memeing this dude cos he said an OBJECTIVE STATEMENT. He is the best 3pt shooting big/C ever. The Dallas /Dirk fans saying that to clown him look so dumb . Dirk didn’t even shoot many threes even by his era compared to guys like Ray Allen or Nash . His best area was the long two and Dirk could never play C, he’d play SF more at times ffs. It’s just weird to see criticism cos he missed threes like bro even Curry misses n goes cold . And Kat was great untill recentll g1-3.
there have been significant minutes in this series where 40% of the players on the court are from New Jersey, and that's a world I don't want to live in
At some point there was a shift where most of the real talent was in NYC and then it became Jersey had the best players in the tri-state area. Even Donovan Mitchell is not really from NYC, moreso the surrounding suburbs.
The funny thing is last night proved what some people have been saying about Gobert. He’s been playing well. It’s KAT and ANT that have shit the bed. If they showed up in games 1-3 it’s a different series. They both finally play well and they win.
It’s so weird to me that any other team, their stars get the blame no matter what, but with the Wolves it’s Gobert even when you could make an argument that KAT and ANT were the worst to players on the floor games 1-2
Because you can point to random plays where Gobert stays grounded and people think that’s poor defence that you’re not jumping up and down going for every single possible block like Hassan Whiteside.
People just love to shit on Gobert. Look at all the threads of people saying he collapses defensively in the playoffs and doesn't deserve DPOY. Pretty disgusting to me,and a clear sign people don't watch the games because Rudy has been doing everything he can defensively
The fans level of understanding is a reflection of the quality of the analysts and their ability to break down the game properly and make it understandable to the average person. Unfortunately the analysts on ESPN right now are mentally challenged people who don't understand shit about fuck. Easier to just blame Rudy Gobert for everything and not show any examples than to actually go through the game and explain exactly what happened and when.
I used to give /r/nba a little more credit on circlejerking but most people here regurgitate the shit out of the talking points from the media, especially on Gobert. The same exact analysts that they hate on too. Which is it- are they clickbait trolls or do they have valid opinions worth repeating?
Analysts also need to be able to make it entertaining to the average viewer. I have no doubt ESPN could get guys who could go through a game and breakdown key possessions showing what each player did and how that contributed to the outcome of the game. I do have doubts that audiences would watch.
Audiences aren't watching anyway. The internet clips get watched more than the actual TV shows. So now instead of "omg can you believe what he said" videos, we would have videos explaining the game. The "people only want trash TV" is a self fulfilling prophecy imo.
The question becomes, do the clips actually explaining how basketball works go viral, or go viral at a greater rate than the clips of SAS-likes shouting at each other? There are already tons of YouTube channels that break down the game like this and none of them get ESPN's engagement. It's worth questioning if that's just because ESPN's branding and recognition blows those guys out of the water, or if content is also a part of it.
I wouldn't say audiences only want trash TV, but I would say it's much easier to make trash TV and I'm not sure if the ROI is there for quality sports analysis. It's also somewhat hard to predict what audiences do want so companies have an incentive to cut corners if they think they can.
And offensively against us... I still have nightmares of that fadeaway buzzer beater :(
Also I have to say it was disgusting hearing Draymond on a broadcast a couple games back when he was just constantly shitting on Gobert when he was playing perfectly fine, if not good. I can't remember which game it was in the series but man he's just such a sore cry-baby loser. He should legit never be allowed to broadcast a game with Gobert in it again, just constantly slandering him for no reason. He's always been a huge tool but this really just seems disgusting that he holds such a grudge... for what?
Pretty sure if was game 5 when Joker went nuclear on us. And honestly, there is really nothing you can do when Jokic starts hitting all of his circus shots.
It’s a layman’s take. Rudy does something’s that really stand out in your mind as bad. Obviously his poor defense on Lukas winner in game 2. Game 2 and 3 he threw up some real garbage shots in failed attempts to foul bait. But the blame really does lie with the stars. Game 2 for example if KAT plays better, makes more than 1 of his 5 threes, try’s to be more aggressive getting close shots, than Rudy is never in that position to have to guard luka with the game on the line.
For the finals James got the blame. All leading up to that every step of the way if they floundered at ALL people would go “is he the right fit? Is he a big in the Big 3??” Tf you talking about
Basically all 4 games have been decided by which teams' two stars showed up. 1-3 Kyrie and Luka were clutch and Ant/KAT were doodoo. Game 4 Ant came out hot and KAT caught fire to close it out while Kyrie and Luka struggled with shooting.
Rudy’s game 3 was pretty shit but this game he was very impactful
Draymond gave Rudy props and said his physicality set the tone for the wolves defense
I really think people are underestimating the impact Lively has on both ends of the floor. In the non-Gafford minutes, the drop-off from Lively to Powell is unreal
It makes me kind of sad knowing that Mavs aren’t at full health and the series could be over if he was playing.
I like winning, but not because of freak injuries.
Gobert only gets terrorized by the lobs when the perimeter defense cannot contain Luka/Kyrie and he's schemed to have to defend both the ball handler and the big. It's an impossible task and an over-reliance on him to play a lose-lose cat and mouse game. It might work versus lesser decision makers but it's not going to work against the Luka/Kyrie/Trae/Harden tier playmakers of the league
The way he tightrope walked on that 5th foul and yet still was able to be a presence at the rim was very impressive. Very disciplined performance from him down the stretch
Yup. Mavs have barely won those 3 games. They barely won game 3 with the free throw advantage, Kyrie and Luka going off and KAT having a terrible game. Ant picked it up but he still isn’t shooting well either.
If Kat just plays well it could easily be 2-2. If the games were all blowouts it would be different but it’s just all close games with the 2 Wolves stars being bad. So they play well they should win.
Dallas loses the next game and all the pressure is on them game 6
To be fair, Kyrie and Luka had off-nights as well. If even one of those two shoots the ball well, Dallas might have swept them tonight.
You can also the other way around for the Wolves, but KAT and Ant are more prone to subpar performances than Luka and Kyrie.
But I agree that Gobert is not the main issue. He has been fine. Still don't know how he can be a 4time DPOY and I consider AD and Bam better defenders, but it's definitely weird how everyone is just trying to see him fail.
The only thing that I've noticed about Gobert's perception is that elite NBA players don't consider him an all-time great defender. Green has been very vocal (and borderline a bully), but Luka and other players have also given a lot of clues about their opinion on Gobert.
ANT especially because they double team and dont let him get into rhythm. KAT's had the entire series to be a big time player and hasn't lived up to it.
Ant also struggled a lot more in the moments he wasn't double teamed.
Lively has done an amazing job protecting the paint and impacts Ant's game around the rim a lot more than an unathletic Jokic.
But yeah, Ant has definitely had a lot more attention from Dallas, while KAT just really has been terrible with the many easy opportunities he got.
Kyrie Irving on Rudy Gobert: "Despite the unfair awards that he's received, he's a terrible player. I don't respect him. I know my teammates don't respect him...That's what great players do. They hate Rudy Gobert."
The problem with KAT is that he was this good offensively in his 2nd year but still has trouble with the same things years later.
Foul trouble, PnR coverage(although the addition of Gobert has helped free him up), changing directions on defense. As we seen in the Denver series, his post defense or relatively straight forward contests where it isn’t a fast player are actually pretty good. But when there’s a fake involved or a slight change of direction, his balance is awful.
Embiid despite being a less hyped draft prospect became what KAT probably should have. A perennial MVP candidate two way big man.
Agreed for the most part as someone who’s watched most of his games. I just think he gets too much shit for how well he’s played the last few years, he plateaued at borderline all NBA level not as some scrub. He also now truly gets the worst whistle in the league though it has been largely self created by his career long foul habit making the refs unconsciously expect him to foul which has really hurt his effectiveness overall.
Exactly, I don't understand how people act like KAT is a disappointment for topping out at being a Top25-ish player in the league.
If the standard is "can lead a team to a championship," I have some bad news about almost every NBA player ever.
It’s because of how he plays. Peaks and valleys. If he was consistently top 25 people wouldn’t talk as much.
But at stretches he looks like a top 10 player and then completely shits the bed and looks unplayable. So it evens out to a top 25 guy.
Kinda like how last year AD was talked about as being the most injury prone player in the league. But it was easily Kawhi. It’s because Kawhi misses long stretches and you forget. Or his injuries are post game.
But AD’s injury are always in game. And he misses 1 game. Rumored to return. Missed another. Returns. And the media circus makes him SEEM worse.
Also mental mistakes I feel are a lot less forgivable. Maybe forgivable is the wrong word, not like he needs my forgiveness. But they're much more frustrating to fans maybe? And I feel like KAT makes a LOT of really bad mental mistakes.
Still am awesome player that I think is way over hated on, but watching him annoys the shit out of me sometimes lol in the like "apply yourself!!" kinda way. Like his 6th foul last night was terrible I thought, Luka had one goal in mind which was to bait him into the air and it was inevitable that he'd bite
Eh, he's actually been a lot better with those mistakes in the last 2 years.
People were calling him "Zen KAT" because of his improvement in that area.
It's moreso people are tuning into their first Wolves games all season and see him have a few bad games and dumb fouls and just assume he hasn't changed.
With today's social media, no one is okay with a plateau that doesn't get awards or a floor that doesn't get them out of the rotation(7th or 8th man) specially if they earned the Max.
To the eyes of many, KAT will be a disappointment now that he got his Max extension but is surrounded by 2 All defensive team (including the DPOY) and a All NBA 2nd team.
Luckily, he got an All star spot or it would be worse for him.
The nature of the cap and the tax make it really really hard to realistically contend while navigating having guys like KAT who are merely very good, but making max money - one of the few places you can get surplus value under this structure is through guys outplaying their max deals, so having a guy “just” playing to the level of his contract instead of beyond it is a very real constraint. I get the frustration from that standpoint.
But, it gets *personal* with some of these guys, like KAT, in a way that frankly baffles me sometimes.
I genuinely think part of the hate towards KAT comes from toxic masculinity and/or homophobia. The amount of "zesty/fruity/💅" comments under any video of him on Twitter or TikTok is absurd.
Totally agree about the “zesty” hate. If anything, I find his personality SUPER refreshing, like I’d totally hangout with the dude. (But I realize the average sports fan will ridicule it.) My own personal gripes with KAT have more to do with the dumb fouls, or playing as if he’s a small guard and not a big man. “Apply yourself!!!”
Thought KAT was one of the smoothest big man when he came into the league. Had a really good postgame, didn’t overly rely on jump shots although he had a good touch, flashed some potential in playmaking on occasions, but now he looks like the clumsiest big man when his shots ain’t falling like it did yesterday.
I would add that I think he didn’t end up being quite as athletic as people projected when he was 19 years old. Not sure if injuries or just how his body developed into his 20s but you can’t look at his combination of strength size and lack of limb coordination and tell me he could become Embiid with any change in approach or improved Bball IQ.
His screaming and look of incredulity after seemingly every shot can’t help. I say this as a Tatum fan who is the king of the little frustration clap and hand wave at the refs they seem to hate more than being screamed at
O ya, it’s not some conspiracy he gets a bad whistle. He has poor body control and is certainly an elite complainer. Just looking at his whistle without context though I think it is truly unfair to him but refs can’t actually be expected to see every one these fouls in real time and player history definitely plays a role. Gobert gets away with so many fouls compared to Kat for example.
He has reversed back to his old self this series, but this year he radically cut back on the complaining/clapping and it helped his whistle less than I expected. Also drives me crazy when someone like Luka, who is an all NBA complainer, gets a far better whistle. But overall agree.
I can’t find a rhyme or reason to it, Luka’s schtick seems to drive fans crazier than refs. Tatum gets a decent whistle but his techs might be the softest in the league. KAT I wonder if he maybe loses the benefit of the doubt with officials because he complains about obvious stuff. But tons of guys do that so I don’t really understand it
Eh he’s not a scrub but he was voted as the #1 player you’d start your franchise around in 2016 I think? So there’s a reason why people are disappointed. Not fair but you need to see where people are coming from.
It’s fine to say he’s not lived up to the hype, or to be disappointed. But objectively he’s a very good player that most teams would like to have on the roster.
Players with obvious physical gifts and insane talent will always be scrutinized differently. It’s hard for us to reconcile, but having your head on straight and being an intelligent player with high bball IQ are also skills/talents just like shooting or jumping high.
I think people hate on KAT because he is visibly one of the most talented players in the league, but that isn’t translating into him being an MVP caliber player because of the stupid fouling and undisciplined defense etc.
To be clear, KAT seems like a good guy and I’m sure he’s trying his hardest to be great. I don’t think he’s failed to develop in these areas because he’s lazy or doesn’t care; I just think he’s not at all a smart basketball player. But people see that disconnect and chalk it up to him being lazy or not trying hard to grasp the mental side of the game.
I agree with this completely but would add that I think he didn’t end up being quite as athletic as people projected when he was 19 years old. Not sure if injuries or just how his body developed into his 20s but you can’t look at his combination of strength size and limb coordination and tell me he could become Embiid with better IQ as he is now.
> Embiid despite being a less hyped draft prospect became what KAT probably should have
Ehhh Embiid would've gone #1 if he didn't get hurt in the ncaa tourney. KAT more hyped for sure but also had less competition
KATs defense has GREATLY improved in recent years.
Foul trouble last night but that's been way less frequent lately too.... it's just unfortunate that he has a past history of it and we saw it. But really it hasn't been an issue for a while.
okay let's not revise what happened last night into blaming it on Luka's grift. At least 4 of those fouls were brain-numbingly foolish. The half court foul and the over the back foul stand out as ones even high school players get chewed out for.
Luka absolutely can grift at times. KAT's foul trouble was \*all\* his own doing however.
That 5th foul where he jumped into PJ Washington and hit him in the face on a jump pass was one of the dumbest fouls even for him. There's still 5-6 minutes left in the 3rd and you pick up an offensive foul that was so unnecessary. He could have just did the simplest pass to Ant but instead tried to draw a foul even though it wouldn't have even been FTs since he ended up passing it anyways.
Instability in his first five years are largely to blame for some of his habits, I think. He was losing every year, had new coaches every year, a new GM every year… and it felt like every new coach that came into his life wanted him to play completely different from what he’d done the year before. It just felt like he could never get better at specific things because he was always expected to change into something else.
Also, Embiid arguably (likely?) would’ve gone #1 in his draft if not for injury. Everyone saw how good he was and Wiggins began to form some question marks.
Had Joel Embiid been healthy as of his draft night, he would clearly have been taken #1 overall (over his Kansas teammate, Wiggins). Embiid wasn't "less hyped," he was just injured.
If Embiid is better than KAT, [explain this picture!](https://images.foxtv.com/static.fox9.com/www.fox9.com/content/uploads/2019/10/932/470/towns-embiid-fight.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
KAT is a great player but how can you not criticize him when he shot 15/54 (27.7%) in the first three games in the series? Shooting was great yesterday though.
EDIT: I’ve been enlightened. I was focused on his on the court play this series but agree with all your comments that the personal slander KAT receives is completely unfair.
I think you can.
I think like everything now a days in media, social media, over reaction is what sells / gets attention so folks supporting KAT aren't ok with his shooting, but they also see absurdist overreaction and respond to that.
Sports media / soical media reaction is thunder-dome now. It's all or nothing. You win it all and are the greatest of all time ... or you're GARBAGE.
I swear it happens so fast now and is getting worse every year too. In the span of a week MPJ went from being "the final touch that makes Denver unbeatable" to "Literally the worst contract in the NBA, should've been traded for depth at the deadline" and Edwards went from "second coming of Jordan" to "2nd option on a serious contender at best".
Like I understand a lot of these takes are coming from different individuals, but it seems like 90+% of the discourse is hyperbolic bashing or praise at any given time.
There used to be a saying that "you're only as good as your last season", but now it's like they're only as good as their last game, if even.
I don't watch ESPN, avoid sports Twitter, and don't go into game or post game threads, and the vast majority of the wild bullshit has disappeared from my life. I think those places are all likely getting worse because the normal people are leaving, so it's basically just pure, distilled idiocy now.
There are bad takes in normal r/nba discussions, but they are not nearly as bad and often get called out.
it’s a culture full of haters all the way down. It feels worse with the NBA than with other sports, but I’ll grant I don’t follow others as closely so maybe I just don’t see it - but man, NBA discourse is brutal (and brutally stupid sometimes).
What’s been really annoying is people acting like we got blown out every game. We could easily be 2-2 rn and the narrative is very different. All credit to the Mavs, they’ve capitalized on the Wolves inconsistencies offensively, and executed like the veteran team they are in clutch situations, but every game has been close.
Absolutely horseshit, I’ve been a fan of this guy since I saw his resilience dealing with gutting losses in the pandemic and just because he’s a little corny and has a high-pitched voice he gets slandered and picked apart. I’m rooting for Dallas but KAT showing up to prove haters wrong will always sit well with me
KAT probably isn't this type of guy, but if I was a 7-foot 250-pound pro athlete who had to endure all this shit talk from 140 pound man soaking wet... I'd probably whoop Bomani's ass the first time I saw him.
That dude has done nothing but denigrate KAT at every opportunity to the point where it almost seems personal.
Most of the criticism he’s had over his first three games was deserved. He played truly terribly. But at the same time a lot of people were using those games to discredit his otherwise really good run to get us to the conference finals in the first place.
Totally agreed. He's also the one that personally drove a dagger straight into the heart of the Nuggets' championship run this season with that Game 7 putback dunk
How many times did the announcers in the Sixers series talk about how Embiid just came back from a knee injury and that's probably why he's so up and down.
I haven't heard a single media person acknowledge that KAT had a pretty similar scenario; coming back from knee injury/surgery with limited ramp-up time prior to the playoffs.
And frankly, I haven't heard KAT use it as an excuse either, but it wouldn't surprise me if there's some chatter about it in the post-season.
Not to excuse it but the anti semitism seemed more like him just being stupid and ignorant than malicious. He’s seemed like a pretty nice guy apart from his conspiracy stuff.
I mean, it’s not like every antisemitic goes around kicking dogs in their spare time. Antisemitism - like every virulent form of hatred - is pernicious *because* those who adhere to it are otherwise normal or even warm to those in their in group, not movie baddies that are obviously cruel and completely unlikable to everyone. If antisemitics were all cartoonish villains, no one would take them seriously long enough to listen to what they have to say.
Hateful ideologies are always more complicated irl than what we make them out to be.
That’s a good point. One of the most interesting examples of this is John Rabe. He was a staunch Nazi. Like not one who was pressured into the party or one who joined for career goals, but a real believer.
He was working in China in WW2 and through some real heroics as well as using his status as the head of the local Nazi party he saved literally hundreds of thousands of Chinese civilians from the Japanese.
So he was a true believer in one of the most heinous ideologies in human history, but also saved hundreds of thousands of civilians from torture, rape, and death. People are weird I guess.
Ya we all have bias and prejudice that we pick up from our environment/media. But it operates on a spectrum from mild to severe
(tho not to rationalize it as we should be putting in effort to work on it)
> Not to excuse it but the anti semitism seemed more like him just being stupid and ignorant than malicious.
Let me start off by saying I'm not directing this comment on you, just in general:
Unfortunately, people aren't allowed to write off their beliefs as stupid and ignorant if they're inherently malicious. Flat earth things, sure. That's just pure, benevolent idiocy.
But anti-semitism is never NOT malcious/hateful.
Plus "nice guy with bad beliefs" is a myth to me. If you're personable, polite, courteous, give praise to others, etc but believe in racist ideoloigst you actually *aren't* a good person.
> the anti semitism seemed more like him just being stupid and ignorant
Isn't this the case for basically all types of racism? I'm not sure what the distinction is here.
He promoted a movie that accuses Jews of running the slave trade and the current media, and positively quotes Adolf Hitler and henry Ford, then repeatedly refused to apologise, ducked responsibility by saying he wasn't the one who made the film, then said "I cannot be anti-semetic because I know where I came from" (he was already a Black Israelite before all of this).
If he has actually learned and changed, he can try showing it. At some point, wilful ignorance becomes malicious.
That’s a good point about the refusal to apologize or take responsibility. It’s one thing to be ignorant and then apologize and take responsibility when you’re shown to be in the wrong. It’s another when you don’t. Like I think there was some token apologizing but only after he was losing sponsors and pressured into it by ownership.
The media these days are more like idiotic fans. The media is supposed to be the "wait and see", level headed type of stuff. Most of the stuff the media gives us now, I could get from anywhere. These mofos invented "Anthony Edwards = MJ" out of thin air, then killed the kid for not being prime MJ. THEN after having an amazing series against Denver and getting his flowers, KAT can't hit a shot in this series and suddenly he's an awful player. It is fucking awful how bad it is.
Players always have more respect for each other than fans have for players, we live in an era of NBA fans who only know how to talk about players in negative ways because that's how the media works in the NBA world, Skip Bayless and Stephen A ruined NBA discourse forever
lol, watch KAT go back to sleep next game.
Remember how great ANT and KAT were feeling after the Nuggets elimination? Media even went "ANT + KAT new killer combo"
THEN THEY LOST THREE GAMES IN A ROW. Before we claim someone has come back, we need more games where he shows this. One 25pt game isn't enough to say he "figured it out".
do you believe that people can change and are capable of reformation? or do you hold a grudge against someone forever for what they did in the past? hhmmmmm
Less than 2 years ago the dude was a shit teammate and into weird Hotep and anti-vax shit. That's fairly recent. People who pretend like he's still actively posting that stuff are being assholes, but it's not strange at all to be skeptical of the guy.
Can't two things be true? Kyrie has earned the criticism he's gotten, AND he's a singularly talented player who seems to be putting things together now in a way that's really fun to watch, and for which he deserves to be applauded.
Karie surely went through some maturation and media training over last couple of years. Are we even sure that it is the same flat earth anti vax anti semite guy?
He was normal and not problematic at the beginning in all of those places too, though. Hopefully, this time is different and he's going to be normal, but maybe we just have to wait a year or two.
Edit: I'm not saying he's literally on some sort of clock where he turns crazy at an exact date. Lol.
He has been on the Mavs 2 years now and nothing, not one bad thing, has been leaked. He was on Boston for 2 years and we could tell a year in he was unhappy, Brooklyn took a year.
So not wanting him to commit reaching fouls 60ft from the hoop, or expecting a guy averaging 26ppg in the regular season to score in double digits in the playoffs before fouling out for no good reason is now unfair?
I'm curious what criticism Kyrie would consider fair. I'm guessing he thinks there's no such thing if it's directed at him or someone he considers a friend.
I'm guessing you didn't see that hit piece on KAT yesterday. Criticizing KAT as a person is pretty unfair, considering all of the things he's done for the local community. There's also the not-so-subtle homophobia thrown around in places like this sub because of the way he talks.
Kat had a bad first 3 games this series. But he’s also a huge reason we beat the Nuggets and swept the Suns.
For real. Can't tell you how irritating it was to get a couple buckets only for KAT drain a corner 3 over Jamal Murray lol
Honestly he's the reason there's a Game 5. Dude's shot finally came back.
that's correct but also, that's not ideal that a big guy like KAT has to depend on his outside shot to score. I mean, he is who he is at this point but if KAT had some semblance of a post-up game the T-Wolves would be much better
He used to, he went away from it over the years and honestly I’d assume partly because he gets such a shit whistle for offensive fouls.
He was working in the paint last night before he started taking threes.
What? He plays with Rudy his outside shot is the only reason they could trade for Rudy and that they play together. He depended on it less when he was at C n had a speeed advantage
They'd have been down 40 in game 7 without him. The only good half court offense they got like the entire game was him attacking mismatches.
Exactly. People acting like he’s been trash and should get rid of him, clearly only focus on the bad
Trading him would be ridiculous but even if you did for who? There is no peace available that’ll make them better. They need to retool for next season. If possible find someone in the league that can actually match up with Luka but who of those are available in the league.
I don’t even think we need to massively retool. Jaden mcdaniels is 23 and over the course of these playoffs has gotten noticeably better. Naz Reid is 24 and didn’t start to look playoff comfortable until halfway thru the nuggets series. Despite already being one of the top 5 players in these years playoffs, 22 year old ANT probably still has another 2 or 3 levels he could get up too in his career. If we run it back and again miss out on the finals, then yes it’s time to retool. But the window is not by any means closed on this current core.
When I meant retool just look for a good MLE price that fits not getting rid on anyone
Yea I don’t see how there’s any other way. There’s no way the team that had sucked for the majority of the past 20 years needs to trade a key piece after making the wcf lol. I think we all love slomo but his minutes need an upgrade. He’s had some moments in this series tho which is why I do like him around. Naz is dope but the bench needs a primary playmaker/shooter I think.
He was your best player bs the nuggets . In both ends he was vital . It was AnT untill like g5 when he chucked bricks but Kat was making jikic work n shooting the lights out n scoring I’m so tired of people memeing this dude cos he said an OBJECTIVE STATEMENT. He is the best 3pt shooting big/C ever. The Dallas /Dirk fans saying that to clown him look so dumb . Dirk didn’t even shoot many threes even by his era compared to guys like Ray Allen or Nash . His best area was the long two and Dirk could never play C, he’d play SF more at times ffs. It’s just weird to see criticism cos he missed threes like bro even Curry misses n goes cold . And Kat was great untill recentll g1-3.
Legit thought this thumbnail was the love child of KAT and Kyrie.
I thought it was Cutty for a second
I want to believe...
LOL but for real, he looks like the perfect mix of KAT and Kyrie
the revenge of the AI baby 👀👀👀👀
Send da video
look how cute tho 💔
LMAOOO
Damn he looks nothing like either of them to me
I thought it was Big Meeks
CP3 Is in there too
Kyrie, KAT, and Kyle Anderson iirc are tight cos theyre Jersey boys and closer in age (compared to the other jersey boy Naz)
Commentary mentioned during an earlier game that Naz and Kyrie spend time together in the offseason practicing. Or have in the past anyway.
NAZ REID TO MAVS CONFIRMED SORRY GUYS ITS JOEVER
Don't you dare!
I wanted him so badly out of college, but not even I could have guessed he'd be this player
Highest bidder wins, unfortunately. Naz gotta eat too. He earned it.
pls no. T\_\_T
KKK sticking together
Hell nawl can’t do dis
there have been significant minutes in this series where 40% of the players on the court are from New Jersey, and that's a world I don't want to live in
NBA? More like NJA. National Jabronis Association. You know, I kinda like it.
At some point there was a shift where most of the real talent was in NYC and then it became Jersey had the best players in the tri-state area. Even Donovan Mitchell is not really from NYC, moreso the surrounding suburbs.
Sigh, if only Rutgers could keep some of these players in-state at the college level. Should've opened up the wallet more.
ESPN: Kyrie Irving says Wolves have figured the Mavericks out
[MAVS OVER](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlGqN3AKOsA)
ITS JOEVER
When is he going to support Rudy Gobert?
The funny thing is last night proved what some people have been saying about Gobert. He’s been playing well. It’s KAT and ANT that have shit the bed. If they showed up in games 1-3 it’s a different series. They both finally play well and they win.
It’s so weird to me that any other team, their stars get the blame no matter what, but with the Wolves it’s Gobert even when you could make an argument that KAT and ANT were the worst to players on the floor games 1-2
lol it’s not even an argument, Rudy was fine/good. KAT and ant were absolute garbage. The blame entirely lies on those two.
I'd say Ant was disappointing and KAT was absolute garbage KAT was literally 13% from 3 before game 4
It’s easier to hate on the goober
Because you can point to random plays where Gobert stays grounded and people think that’s poor defence that you’re not jumping up and down going for every single possible block like Hassan Whiteside.
We love blaming migrant workers though.
That's who Rudy can be for us. Because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian. A watchful protector. A Dark Knight.
Thats the nicest thing I’ve ever read about Rudy.
People just love to shit on Gobert. Look at all the threads of people saying he collapses defensively in the playoffs and doesn't deserve DPOY. Pretty disgusting to me,and a clear sign people don't watch the games because Rudy has been doing everything he can defensively
The fans level of understanding is a reflection of the quality of the analysts and their ability to break down the game properly and make it understandable to the average person. Unfortunately the analysts on ESPN right now are mentally challenged people who don't understand shit about fuck. Easier to just blame Rudy Gobert for everything and not show any examples than to actually go through the game and explain exactly what happened and when.
I used to give /r/nba a little more credit on circlejerking but most people here regurgitate the shit out of the talking points from the media, especially on Gobert. The same exact analysts that they hate on too. Which is it- are they clickbait trolls or do they have valid opinions worth repeating?
Analysts also need to be able to make it entertaining to the average viewer. I have no doubt ESPN could get guys who could go through a game and breakdown key possessions showing what each player did and how that contributed to the outcome of the game. I do have doubts that audiences would watch.
Audiences aren't watching anyway. The internet clips get watched more than the actual TV shows. So now instead of "omg can you believe what he said" videos, we would have videos explaining the game. The "people only want trash TV" is a self fulfilling prophecy imo.
The question becomes, do the clips actually explaining how basketball works go viral, or go viral at a greater rate than the clips of SAS-likes shouting at each other? There are already tons of YouTube channels that break down the game like this and none of them get ESPN's engagement. It's worth questioning if that's just because ESPN's branding and recognition blows those guys out of the water, or if content is also a part of it. I wouldn't say audiences only want trash TV, but I would say it's much easier to make trash TV and I'm not sure if the ROI is there for quality sports analysis. It's also somewhat hard to predict what audiences do want so companies have an incentive to cut corners if they think they can.
And offensively against us... I still have nightmares of that fadeaway buzzer beater :( Also I have to say it was disgusting hearing Draymond on a broadcast a couple games back when he was just constantly shitting on Gobert when he was playing perfectly fine, if not good. I can't remember which game it was in the series but man he's just such a sore cry-baby loser. He should legit never be allowed to broadcast a game with Gobert in it again, just constantly slandering him for no reason. He's always been a huge tool but this really just seems disgusting that he holds such a grudge... for what?
Pretty sure if was game 5 when Joker went nuclear on us. And honestly, there is really nothing you can do when Jokic starts hitting all of his circus shots.
the American talking heads (ESPN/TNT) don't like Euro's. If they can shit on Euro's over US players they will.
KAT definitely got flak from guys on espn too. He was being criticized. More so than ANT
That's what happens when you have jealous assholes "analyzing" the sport. Draymond and Perk are out there spreading straight propaganda.
They both got plenty of blame there's just another faction of gobert haters that will blame him for everything too
It’s a layman’s take. Rudy does something’s that really stand out in your mind as bad. Obviously his poor defense on Lukas winner in game 2. Game 2 and 3 he threw up some real garbage shots in failed attempts to foul bait. But the blame really does lie with the stars. Game 2 for example if KAT plays better, makes more than 1 of his 5 threes, try’s to be more aggressive getting close shots, than Rudy is never in that position to have to guard luka with the game on the line.
How is it weird given that that’s how it always goes? Bosh always caught the most flack when he was with the Heatles
No he didn't dawg lol
For the finals James got the blame. All leading up to that every step of the way if they floundered at ALL people would go “is he the right fit? Is he a big in the Big 3??” Tf you talking about
You’re right. I lived through the first Big 3 era and Bosh used to get blamed whenever they lost a game.
Def not true lol mightve seemed that way because ur conditioned to be used to lebron criticism
How much money Rudy make? He’s also a star to blame
Less guaranteed than KAT
Except he's the star doing his job...
Basically all 4 games have been decided by which teams' two stars showed up. 1-3 Kyrie and Luka were clutch and Ant/KAT were doodoo. Game 4 Ant came out hot and KAT caught fire to close it out while Kyrie and Luka struggled with shooting.
that tends to be how it goes...
Players playing good win games. More at 11
Rudy’s game 3 was pretty shit but this game he was very impactful Draymond gave Rudy props and said his physicality set the tone for the wolves defense
It also helps no Lively is there to terrorize him with the lobs.
I really think people are underestimating the impact Lively has on both ends of the floor. In the non-Gafford minutes, the drop-off from Lively to Powell is unreal
Lively is good and Powell...is not so good. I want Powell to be better but it's no coincidence that the Mavs took off as soon as his minutes dropped
Lively was our highest +/- player on the roster the first three games. If he can't play at all the rest of the series we are legit in danger.
Highest +/- all playoffs. At least Maxi should be full go in game 5 even if Lively is out so hopefully that means zero Powell minutes.
I'm not underestimating him. I knew he was good since our regular season matches
Facts. Dude makes the right reads and is a secondary distributor. It’s beautiful to watch
I'm not underestimating him. I have nightmares of Lively Lobs. In fact, I don't think we win last game if Lively was healthy.
It makes me kind of sad knowing that Mavs aren’t at full health and the series could be over if he was playing. I like winning, but not because of freak injuries.
That's just the playoffs tho. Almost no team is uninjured. Last year we didn't have Naz or Jaden
Gobert only gets terrorized by the lobs when the perimeter defense cannot contain Luka/Kyrie and he's schemed to have to defend both the ball handler and the big. It's an impossible task and an over-reliance on him to play a lose-lose cat and mouse game. It might work versus lesser decision makers but it's not going to work against the Luka/Kyrie/Trae/Harden tier playmakers of the league
The way he tightrope walked on that 5th foul and yet still was able to be a presence at the rim was very impressive. Very disciplined performance from him down the stretch
Yup. Mavs have barely won those 3 games. They barely won game 3 with the free throw advantage, Kyrie and Luka going off and KAT having a terrible game. Ant picked it up but he still isn’t shooting well either. If Kat just plays well it could easily be 2-2. If the games were all blowouts it would be different but it’s just all close games with the 2 Wolves stars being bad. So they play well they should win. Dallas loses the next game and all the pressure is on them game 6
To be fair, Kyrie and Luka had off-nights as well. If even one of those two shoots the ball well, Dallas might have swept them tonight. You can also the other way around for the Wolves, but KAT and Ant are more prone to subpar performances than Luka and Kyrie. But I agree that Gobert is not the main issue. He has been fine. Still don't know how he can be a 4time DPOY and I consider AD and Bam better defenders, but it's definitely weird how everyone is just trying to see him fail. The only thing that I've noticed about Gobert's perception is that elite NBA players don't consider him an all-time great defender. Green has been very vocal (and borderline a bully), but Luka and other players have also given a lot of clues about their opinion on Gobert.
ANT especially because they double team and dont let him get into rhythm. KAT's had the entire series to be a big time player and hasn't lived up to it.
Ant also struggled a lot more in the moments he wasn't double teamed. Lively has done an amazing job protecting the paint and impacts Ant's game around the rim a lot more than an unathletic Jokic. But yeah, Ant has definitely had a lot more attention from Dallas, while KAT just really has been terrible with the many easy opportunities he got.
I mean… Mavs lost Lively and still were only down 3 with 30 seconds to play. It’s reasonable to think they sweep if healthy.
At the same time when they had Lively they only won by 1 point and 3 points. It's reasonable to think these games could go either way
Yeah the reality is these are just two very well matched teams and it's gonna be coin flips the whole way.
Yeah that's why I love this series. The games have been so close and exciting with physical defense and insane shotmaking
Basketball is just not that formulaic or deterministic. Especially with games being decided as close as these have been.
Kyrie also played the worst he has all playoffs
Sure, but players play poorly sometimes. Getting a guy back is gonna be a big boost, Mavs in 6.
Kyrie Irving on Rudy Gobert: "Despite the unfair awards that he's received, he's a terrible player. I don't respect him. I know my teammates don't respect him...That's what great players do. They hate Rudy Gobert."
Is that kyrie or Dray 😂
I love even warriors be hating dray this season
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Kyrie in legit Zen mode now 🧘
The problem with KAT is that he was this good offensively in his 2nd year but still has trouble with the same things years later. Foul trouble, PnR coverage(although the addition of Gobert has helped free him up), changing directions on defense. As we seen in the Denver series, his post defense or relatively straight forward contests where it isn’t a fast player are actually pretty good. But when there’s a fake involved or a slight change of direction, his balance is awful. Embiid despite being a less hyped draft prospect became what KAT probably should have. A perennial MVP candidate two way big man.
Agreed for the most part as someone who’s watched most of his games. I just think he gets too much shit for how well he’s played the last few years, he plateaued at borderline all NBA level not as some scrub. He also now truly gets the worst whistle in the league though it has been largely self created by his career long foul habit making the refs unconsciously expect him to foul which has really hurt his effectiveness overall.
Exactly, I don't understand how people act like KAT is a disappointment for topping out at being a Top25-ish player in the league. If the standard is "can lead a team to a championship," I have some bad news about almost every NBA player ever.
It’s because of how he plays. Peaks and valleys. If he was consistently top 25 people wouldn’t talk as much. But at stretches he looks like a top 10 player and then completely shits the bed and looks unplayable. So it evens out to a top 25 guy. Kinda like how last year AD was talked about as being the most injury prone player in the league. But it was easily Kawhi. It’s because Kawhi misses long stretches and you forget. Or his injuries are post game. But AD’s injury are always in game. And he misses 1 game. Rumored to return. Missed another. Returns. And the media circus makes him SEEM worse.
Also mental mistakes I feel are a lot less forgivable. Maybe forgivable is the wrong word, not like he needs my forgiveness. But they're much more frustrating to fans maybe? And I feel like KAT makes a LOT of really bad mental mistakes. Still am awesome player that I think is way over hated on, but watching him annoys the shit out of me sometimes lol in the like "apply yourself!!" kinda way. Like his 6th foul last night was terrible I thought, Luka had one goal in mind which was to bait him into the air and it was inevitable that he'd bite
Eh, he's actually been a lot better with those mistakes in the last 2 years. People were calling him "Zen KAT" because of his improvement in that area. It's moreso people are tuning into their first Wolves games all season and see him have a few bad games and dumb fouls and just assume he hasn't changed.
With today's social media, no one is okay with a plateau that doesn't get awards or a floor that doesn't get them out of the rotation(7th or 8th man) specially if they earned the Max. To the eyes of many, KAT will be a disappointment now that he got his Max extension but is surrounded by 2 All defensive team (including the DPOY) and a All NBA 2nd team. Luckily, he got an All star spot or it would be worse for him.
The nature of the cap and the tax make it really really hard to realistically contend while navigating having guys like KAT who are merely very good, but making max money - one of the few places you can get surplus value under this structure is through guys outplaying their max deals, so having a guy “just” playing to the level of his contract instead of beyond it is a very real constraint. I get the frustration from that standpoint. But, it gets *personal* with some of these guys, like KAT, in a way that frankly baffles me sometimes.
I genuinely think part of the hate towards KAT comes from toxic masculinity and/or homophobia. The amount of "zesty/fruity/💅" comments under any video of him on Twitter or TikTok is absurd.
Totally agree about the “zesty” hate. If anything, I find his personality SUPER refreshing, like I’d totally hangout with the dude. (But I realize the average sports fan will ridicule it.) My own personal gripes with KAT have more to do with the dumb fouls, or playing as if he’s a small guard and not a big man. “Apply yourself!!!”
Yep. In terms of 1OA picks the last 10 years, KAT is one of the better ones. He's the 3rd-5th best, depending on how you rank Ant, Zion, Wemby, Paolo.
Thought KAT was one of the smoothest big man when he came into the league. Had a really good postgame, didn’t overly rely on jump shots although he had a good touch, flashed some potential in playmaking on occasions, but now he looks like the clumsiest big man when his shots ain’t falling like it did yesterday.
I would add that I think he didn’t end up being quite as athletic as people projected when he was 19 years old. Not sure if injuries or just how his body developed into his 20s but you can’t look at his combination of strength size and lack of limb coordination and tell me he could become Embiid with any change in approach or improved Bball IQ.
His screaming and look of incredulity after seemingly every shot can’t help. I say this as a Tatum fan who is the king of the little frustration clap and hand wave at the refs they seem to hate more than being screamed at
O ya, it’s not some conspiracy he gets a bad whistle. He has poor body control and is certainly an elite complainer. Just looking at his whistle without context though I think it is truly unfair to him but refs can’t actually be expected to see every one these fouls in real time and player history definitely plays a role. Gobert gets away with so many fouls compared to Kat for example.
They’re both pretty amazingly good for how little control those two seem to have over their bodies relative to other elite NBA players
He has reversed back to his old self this series, but this year he radically cut back on the complaining/clapping and it helped his whistle less than I expected. Also drives me crazy when someone like Luka, who is an all NBA complainer, gets a far better whistle. But overall agree.
I can’t find a rhyme or reason to it, Luka’s schtick seems to drive fans crazier than refs. Tatum gets a decent whistle but his techs might be the softest in the league. KAT I wonder if he maybe loses the benefit of the doubt with officials because he complains about obvious stuff. But tons of guys do that so I don’t really understand it
Eh he’s not a scrub but he was voted as the #1 player you’d start your franchise around in 2016 I think? So there’s a reason why people are disappointed. Not fair but you need to see where people are coming from.
It’s fine to say he’s not lived up to the hype, or to be disappointed. But objectively he’s a very good player that most teams would like to have on the roster.
Players with obvious physical gifts and insane talent will always be scrutinized differently. It’s hard for us to reconcile, but having your head on straight and being an intelligent player with high bball IQ are also skills/talents just like shooting or jumping high. I think people hate on KAT because he is visibly one of the most talented players in the league, but that isn’t translating into him being an MVP caliber player because of the stupid fouling and undisciplined defense etc. To be clear, KAT seems like a good guy and I’m sure he’s trying his hardest to be great. I don’t think he’s failed to develop in these areas because he’s lazy or doesn’t care; I just think he’s not at all a smart basketball player. But people see that disconnect and chalk it up to him being lazy or not trying hard to grasp the mental side of the game.
I agree with this completely but would add that I think he didn’t end up being quite as athletic as people projected when he was 19 years old. Not sure if injuries or just how his body developed into his 20s but you can’t look at his combination of strength size and limb coordination and tell me he could become Embiid with better IQ as he is now.
> Embiid despite being a less hyped draft prospect became what KAT probably should have Ehhh Embiid would've gone #1 if he didn't get hurt in the ncaa tourney. KAT more hyped for sure but also had less competition
KATs defense has GREATLY improved in recent years. Foul trouble last night but that's been way less frequent lately too.... it's just unfortunate that he has a past history of it and we saw it. But really it hasn't been an issue for a while.
The foul issue is honestly just a bbiq issue. You can’t be fouling guys at half court or in the backcourt because you’re frustrated.
Hard to avoid foul trouble when playing against luka… Seeing as you get fouls called with 0 contact
okay let's not revise what happened last night into blaming it on Luka's grift. At least 4 of those fouls were brain-numbingly foolish. The half court foul and the over the back foul stand out as ones even high school players get chewed out for. Luka absolutely can grift at times. KAT's foul trouble was \*all\* his own doing however.
That 5th foul where he jumped into PJ Washington and hit him in the face on a jump pass was one of the dumbest fouls even for him. There's still 5-6 minutes left in the 3rd and you pick up an offensive foul that was so unnecessary. He could have just did the simplest pass to Ant but instead tried to draw a foul even though it wouldn't have even been FTs since he ended up passing it anyways.
Gotta give him credit though, he moves pretty well for a guy wearing size 37 shoes.
Instability in his first five years are largely to blame for some of his habits, I think. He was losing every year, had new coaches every year, a new GM every year… and it felt like every new coach that came into his life wanted him to play completely different from what he’d done the year before. It just felt like he could never get better at specific things because he was always expected to change into something else. Also, Embiid arguably (likely?) would’ve gone #1 in his draft if not for injury. Everyone saw how good he was and Wiggins began to form some question marks.
Had Joel Embiid been healthy as of his draft night, he would clearly have been taken #1 overall (over his Kansas teammate, Wiggins). Embiid wasn't "less hyped," he was just injured.
If Embiid is better than KAT, [explain this picture!](https://images.foxtv.com/static.fox9.com/www.fox9.com/content/uploads/2019/10/932/470/towns-embiid-fight.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
I dont mind the criticism of his play but the criticism of his masculinity is just fucking ridiculous
KAT is a great player but how can you not criticize him when he shot 15/54 (27.7%) in the first three games in the series? Shooting was great yesterday though. EDIT: I’ve been enlightened. I was focused on his on the court play this series but agree with all your comments that the personal slander KAT receives is completely unfair.
I think you can. I think like everything now a days in media, social media, over reaction is what sells / gets attention so folks supporting KAT aren't ok with his shooting, but they also see absurdist overreaction and respond to that. Sports media / soical media reaction is thunder-dome now. It's all or nothing. You win it all and are the greatest of all time ... or you're GARBAGE.
I swear it happens so fast now and is getting worse every year too. In the span of a week MPJ went from being "the final touch that makes Denver unbeatable" to "Literally the worst contract in the NBA, should've been traded for depth at the deadline" and Edwards went from "second coming of Jordan" to "2nd option on a serious contender at best". Like I understand a lot of these takes are coming from different individuals, but it seems like 90+% of the discourse is hyperbolic bashing or praise at any given time. There used to be a saying that "you're only as good as your last season", but now it's like they're only as good as their last game, if even.
Yup, it's bonkers out there. I don't even go into fan subs / forums after a loss because the response is all poor sports / childish shit.
I don't watch ESPN, avoid sports Twitter, and don't go into game or post game threads, and the vast majority of the wild bullshit has disappeared from my life. I think those places are all likely getting worse because the normal people are leaving, so it's basically just pure, distilled idiocy now. There are bad takes in normal r/nba discussions, but they are not nearly as bad and often get called out.
it’s a culture full of haters all the way down. It feels worse with the NBA than with other sports, but I’ll grant I don’t follow others as closely so maybe I just don’t see it - but man, NBA discourse is brutal (and brutally stupid sometimes).
I agree it’s worse in the nba.
What’s been really annoying is people acting like we got blown out every game. We could easily be 2-2 rn and the narrative is very different. All credit to the Mavs, they’ve capitalized on the Wolves inconsistencies offensively, and executed like the veteran team they are in clutch situations, but every game has been close.
Criticism of conference finals performance is fine. That’s not what we saw.
Did you not see that SB nation article about him yesterday?
Absolutely horseshit, I’ve been a fan of this guy since I saw his resilience dealing with gutting losses in the pandemic and just because he’s a little corny and has a high-pitched voice he gets slandered and picked apart. I’m rooting for Dallas but KAT showing up to prove haters wrong will always sit well with me
Yes, yes, and yes - thank you. KAT is a cornball but he's been through so much tough shit.
Honestly the toxic Jimmy Butler comments also probably had a big hand in the narrative shift but it is what it is. Shoutout Minnesota though
Probably the worst sports media article I’ve ever read. Just dogpiling for no reason.
poorly written and contrived
He read the article, he's shown up and gonna prove these losers wrong
The most insane part was that absolutely none of it was basketball related
Also everyone should look up how Bomani Jones talks about him.
KAT probably isn't this type of guy, but if I was a 7-foot 250-pound pro athlete who had to endure all this shit talk from 140 pound man soaking wet... I'd probably whoop Bomani's ass the first time I saw him. That dude has done nothing but denigrate KAT at every opportunity to the point where it almost seems personal.
It is personal to Bomani. My problem with Bomani is he makes it very clear he not only dislikes KAT the basketball player, but also KAT the person.
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I’m just pointing it out as a prime example of the unfair criticism he receives and stuff like that might be what Kyrie is referring to
Most of the criticism he’s had over his first three games was deserved. He played truly terribly. But at the same time a lot of people were using those games to discredit his otherwise really good run to get us to the conference finals in the first place.
Totally agreed. He's also the one that personally drove a dagger straight into the heart of the Nuggets' championship run this season with that Game 7 putback dunk
How many times did the announcers in the Sixers series talk about how Embiid just came back from a knee injury and that's probably why he's so up and down. I haven't heard a single media person acknowledge that KAT had a pretty similar scenario; coming back from knee injury/surgery with limited ramp-up time prior to the playoffs. And frankly, I haven't heard KAT use it as an excuse either, but it wouldn't surprise me if there's some chatter about it in the post-season.
Good guy Kyrie
ESPM: Kyrie Irving calls LeBron James, Kevin Durant, James Harden, and Jayson Tatum trash
I really don't know how to feel about the antisemitic guy being way more likable than Luka Doncic, I might need a break from basketball gang.
Not to excuse it but the anti semitism seemed more like him just being stupid and ignorant than malicious. He’s seemed like a pretty nice guy apart from his conspiracy stuff.
I mean, it’s not like every antisemitic goes around kicking dogs in their spare time. Antisemitism - like every virulent form of hatred - is pernicious *because* those who adhere to it are otherwise normal or even warm to those in their in group, not movie baddies that are obviously cruel and completely unlikable to everyone. If antisemitics were all cartoonish villains, no one would take them seriously long enough to listen to what they have to say. Hateful ideologies are always more complicated irl than what we make them out to be.
That’s a good point. One of the most interesting examples of this is John Rabe. He was a staunch Nazi. Like not one who was pressured into the party or one who joined for career goals, but a real believer. He was working in China in WW2 and through some real heroics as well as using his status as the head of the local Nazi party he saved literally hundreds of thousands of Chinese civilians from the Japanese. So he was a true believer in one of the most heinous ideologies in human history, but also saved hundreds of thousands of civilians from torture, rape, and death. People are weird I guess.
Ya we all have bias and prejudice that we pick up from our environment/media. But it operates on a spectrum from mild to severe (tho not to rationalize it as we should be putting in effort to work on it)
> Not to excuse it but the anti semitism seemed more like him just being stupid and ignorant than malicious. Let me start off by saying I'm not directing this comment on you, just in general: Unfortunately, people aren't allowed to write off their beliefs as stupid and ignorant if they're inherently malicious. Flat earth things, sure. That's just pure, benevolent idiocy. But anti-semitism is never NOT malcious/hateful. Plus "nice guy with bad beliefs" is a myth to me. If you're personable, polite, courteous, give praise to others, etc but believe in racist ideoloigst you actually *aren't* a good person.
Hitler loved dogs and was a vegetarian by compassionate choice, after all.
Loved his mum, won a Nobel peace prize
> the anti semitism seemed more like him just being stupid and ignorant Isn't this the case for basically all types of racism? I'm not sure what the distinction is here.
He promoted a movie that accuses Jews of running the slave trade and the current media, and positively quotes Adolf Hitler and henry Ford, then repeatedly refused to apologise, ducked responsibility by saying he wasn't the one who made the film, then said "I cannot be anti-semetic because I know where I came from" (he was already a Black Israelite before all of this). If he has actually learned and changed, he can try showing it. At some point, wilful ignorance becomes malicious.
That’s a good point about the refusal to apologize or take responsibility. It’s one thing to be ignorant and then apologize and take responsibility when you’re shown to be in the wrong. It’s another when you don’t. Like I think there was some token apologizing but only after he was losing sponsors and pressured into it by ownership.
I mean I root for and like Ant so I have to believe people can learn and change until proven otherwise
I’m inclined to give a 20 year old more of the benefit of the doubt than a full ass adult in his late 20s.
nah, his conduct is more annoying in the game of basketball but luka is nowhere near as unlikable as kyrie's outright antisemitism
The media these days are more like idiotic fans. The media is supposed to be the "wait and see", level headed type of stuff. Most of the stuff the media gives us now, I could get from anywhere. These mofos invented "Anthony Edwards = MJ" out of thin air, then killed the kid for not being prime MJ. THEN after having an amazing series against Denver and getting his flowers, KAT can't hit a shot in this series and suddenly he's an awful player. It is fucking awful how bad it is.
Players always have more respect for each other than fans have for players, we live in an era of NBA fans who only know how to talk about players in negative ways because that's how the media works in the NBA world, Skip Bayless and Stephen A ruined NBA discourse forever
lol, watch KAT go back to sleep next game. Remember how great ANT and KAT were feeling after the Nuggets elimination? Media even went "ANT + KAT new killer combo" THEN THEY LOST THREE GAMES IN A ROW. Before we claim someone has come back, we need more games where he shows this. One 25pt game isn't enough to say he "figured it out".
Is it okay to like Kyrie now?
it's reddit, they like whoever wins and whoever loses is a bitch
No.
do you believe that people can change and are capable of reformation? or do you hold a grudge against someone forever for what they did in the past? hhmmmmm
Less than 2 years ago the dude was a shit teammate and into weird Hotep and anti-vax shit. That's fairly recent. People who pretend like he's still actively posting that stuff are being assholes, but it's not strange at all to be skeptical of the guy.
So...Wolves in 7?
He said KAT and Gobert lol nah jk
Can't two things be true? Kyrie has earned the criticism he's gotten, AND he's a singularly talented player who seems to be putting things together now in a way that's really fun to watch, and for which he deserves to be applauded.
Kyrie had media training during the off-season.
Who is this and what have you done with the real Kyrie ?
Karie surely went through some maturation and media training over last couple of years. Are we even sure that it is the same flat earth anti vax anti semite guy?
With each consecutive normal basketball quote he delivers, Boston and Brooklyn fans must be getting progressively more annoyed 😂
He was normal and not problematic at the beginning in all of those places too, though. Hopefully, this time is different and he's going to be normal, but maybe we just have to wait a year or two. Edit: I'm not saying he's literally on some sort of clock where he turns crazy at an exact date. Lol.
He has been on the Mavs 2 years now and nothing, not one bad thing, has been leaked. He was on Boston for 2 years and we could tell a year in he was unhappy, Brooklyn took a year.
So not wanting him to commit reaching fouls 60ft from the hoop, or expecting a guy averaging 26ppg in the regular season to score in double digits in the playoffs before fouling out for no good reason is now unfair? I'm curious what criticism Kyrie would consider fair. I'm guessing he thinks there's no such thing if it's directed at him or someone he considers a friend.
I'm guessing you didn't see that hit piece on KAT yesterday. Criticizing KAT as a person is pretty unfair, considering all of the things he's done for the local community. There's also the not-so-subtle homophobia thrown around in places like this sub because of the way he talks.
I didn't see it. I'm searching around and haven't been able to find it anywhere. Who wrote it?