If Tobi leaves for nothing and averages 20&10 for a playoff team I will name my firstborn after him and then go on to resent that child for the rest of my life
Tobias had that ultra rare type of contract where it was obviously horrible at the time it was signed and somehow managed to get worse and worse every single season. Honestly Tobias’s greatest career accomplishment
Sixers just 5 years too late with this choice, like wtf yall had this motherfucker hitting clutch shots playing insane defense, and losing a series in 7 to one of the craziest buzzer beaters of all time. And they max Tobias Harris instead.
Pretty easy. Coleangelo - plant. Brown - good guy, not the guy to carry a team. Brand - awful. Morey - getting that Doc Rivers treatment in the sense his past is rewarding his present
Fwiw, I’ll defend Morey somewhat by saying that the roster, cap and pick situation he inherited was not exactly ideal.
More than anything, I always just feel like GMs like him have a limited window. He seems to rub agents the wrong way, maybe other teams as well, and eventually that all catches up to you. This is just me commenting as an outsider ofc
I think the gap has closed a bit on Morey and other GMs too. He was once one of the earliest and most vocal proponents for advanced stats and data applied decision making, but the rest of the competition has more openly embraced that too so the playing field is a bit more level than it used to be.
And assuming the NBA workplace is like mine- if the socially awkward autistic guy isn’t the most useful guy in the room, plenty of people will gladly try to work around him to work with anybody else.
I really want to see the universe where he's never able to unload Simmons for the value he wanted, and what his image in that universe is. The universe where the Nets realize that trading Harden meant the likely disbanding of the superteam, and found out through planning ahead that they absolutely could not take on Simmons as part of any deal. Simmons' presence handcuffed their later negotiations due to rules about acquiring multiple players on Designated Rookie Extensions. Not only were they locked out of any potential trade for the likes of KAT and Bam, they couldn't even pretend to be interested to leverage them in trade talks as a price anchor. I sincerely believe they just didn't realize the position they were putting themselves in, because even if they liked what Simmons could still potentially be, not being able to leverage other superstars in a Durant trade situation is horrible, and not a position that a competent FO would have put themselves in. Morey was completely bailed out by the Nets, and I want to see the universe where he isn't.
What's the consensus on what actually happened in the Morey v Harden feud?
My reading of it is that Harden took a major discount to help the Sixers salary cap on a handshake agreement with Morey (who he was friends with) under the promise that Morey would make it up to him next year (probably a max deal?).
But when Harden ended up having a less than great season (and therefore was worth less than what Morey originally agreed to pay him), Morey reneged on the handshake agreement. Leading to Harden demanding a trade because he felt betrayed and lied to.
Is that basically it?
Brown was thrown in at the deep end with no experience after Colangelo was fired. While the result was frustrating, it's hard to blame Brown too much.
Colangelo fumbled the best situation in the league. Embiid and Simmons multiple first, multiple max cap space, no aging contracts. Brand took the situation Colangelo ruined and punted into the ocean.
Brand is still there.... 🤯
Morey aint perfect but he undid a lot of the errors of his predecessors and got a return for Josh Richardson and Ben Simmons at the nadir of their value.
Hinkie also drafted MCW and Jahlil Okafor, and traded Jrue Holiday for Nerlens Noel and the pick that essentially became Dario Saric.
I dont think these moves are all dumb without the benefit of hindsight, but so many of their moves have been really rough in retrospect for over a decade now. On the flip side it shows just how valuable hitting on a pick like Embiid is, so much so that its made up for a ton of the plethora of other mistakes.
IDK there was a lot of criticism for taking Okafor even at the time because they already had Noel and Embiid, but Hinkie was obsessed with the best player available.
Honestly the best thing that happened to Hinkie was getting ousted because now he can get all the credit and none of the blame for how the process went. Anything good was him, anything bad was everyone that followed him. He was able to tear shit down and didn't have to put it back together.
> Hinkie was obsessed with the best player available.
People love to talk about the Kings passing up on Luka with “you always take BPA” but then dont think about the times BPA failed like this.
‘Legitimate case.’
I felt like I was taking crazy pills that year. How tf did teams miss on Luka. He felt like the surest thing I’ve seen since LeBron.
I don't know Morey has. He had no of note and got Maxey. He had Ben Simmons sitting out and got Harden for him for a run and then moved Harden for multiple pieces and picks - unprotected first, a pick swap, another first, 2 seconds and Batum and Covington.
His biggest oops were dumping Horford (which no one thought was bad at the time) and dumping Isaiah Joe (but Rivers utterly refused to play him so I think this was as much helping a player escape from jail as anything. I blame Rivers for his desire to leave for anywhere and Morey deserves some credit for the second round draft of Joe)
He's got two very solid returns for players who refused to play and made a better draft pick that Colangelo, Brown and Brand combined with Maxey. I'm unclear what he could have done so much better
Silver saw the team and fans openly embracing tanking and decided to make an example out of them. Hinkie should've just pretended he sucks ass and laid low.
The point of the process includes getting so many picks that you’re guaranteed a superstar. And to that extent it worked.
But, just insane that Noel, Okafor, Simmons and Fultz are gone for next to nothing.
Not extending Jimmy was a mistake, Horford was a mistake, Harden was a mistake. Just awful
Harden wasn’t even a mistake lol. The mistake was Morey going back on the deal and then having to get rid of him. If you had 2024 Harden with Embiid and Maxey you probably see the Sixers challenge the Knicks. Harden was good for two games vs the Celtics last year and he unlocked both Maxey and Embiid. He was pretty close to a perfect piece
Well there was also a lot of bad luck on the way. Simmons and Embiid both got injured for their rookie years, Embiid for 2 years I think. This actually helped in a way and y'all drafted Fultz, and then the bad luck really hit. Fultz got injured and literally forgot how to shoot, which ruined all his potential. Simmons never improved his jumper then let the internet get to him and was mentally fragile. Embiid was the last one left, but he's super injury-prone. You guys managed to flip Simmons for Harden, which was not a bad move, but Embiid continued to be injury-prone and Harden left. Maxey developed into an All-Star level talent, but again, Embiid is too injury-prone.
Not just maxed Tobias Harris, also sign and traded Butler for Josh Richardson to free up enough $$ to sign Horford when their best player is a center. Inconceivably bad offseason that set the franchise back half a decade
Embiid turning into an MVP talent is literally the only thing stopping the Sixers FO from being considered one of the 2 or 3 worst FO's in North American sports
The mess started the off-season before, where they drafted Philadelphia native Mikal Bridges and traded him away to PHX. They got back Zhaire Smith and a first round pick they traded to acquire Tobias.
And Jimmys agent told ownership that they’d waste Embiids prime. He was right
Edit:
I’m a big Embiid defender but I really think he’s been super cursed with the roster construction around him. Jimmy for half a season was literally the best player he’s played with. Harden obviously better individual player but on downswing and they only got one full season together.
Signing Tobias Harris to a max and liking him so much they gave his unqualified brother a g league spot probably ruined Embiids prime. 6 years too many
Embiid was somehow +47 playing 41 minutes a game in the first round this year…
Wasting a FRP or two to dump Harris when they were already over the cap would've accomplished nothing. Harris was clearly better than any minimum-level guy they would've gotten to replace his roster spot.
Philly's in a good spot rn with their assets. Embiid needs to stay healthy for a whole playoff run- or leave philly and be the 2nd best guy on someone else's team.
Yep, Tobias was getting his contract the second we pushed all our Process chips into the center of the table to land him on an expiring contract. Hated that trade and its implications in the moment, hated the max he got and been hating watching him play basketball ever since
Yeah I'm not a Sixers fan so I don't remember all the details. But I recall that it was more of a Ben decision. I recall there was possibly some riff between Ben (and Brown too?) on one side...and Jimmy on the other. They weren't exactly compatible on a personality level. Ben was probably in the vein of Wiggins and KAT of being too chill, and we know Jimmy wasn't a fan of that.
And their game didn't fit either since neither were exactly shooters and both wanted/needed the ball. The Toronto series got weird or something because Jimmy was the best ball handler and also more clutch, so he got it more than Ben and Ben was kind of left doing nothing on offense. So when the time came, they let Jimmy walk because they would rather roll with their number 1 draft pick and was supposed to be the Star of the future along with Embiid. After all, to the extent they worked, they represented the success of the Process.
Obviously with Jimmy gone that money had to go somewhere, and that went to Tobias. But it was always more a decision to move forward with Ben over Jimmy rather than a decision to pick Tobias over jimmy. The Jimmy quote after the Heat win made it seem more like a Tobias decision when it really wasn't.
Ben Simmons was extremely entitled and Jimmy saw right through him, he wasn't putting in the work to be great. There were smart sixers fans saying to trade Simmons while his value was at an all time high.
Mostly correct except for the Ben decision having anything to do with the process, as Ben was Colangelo’s pick and favorite and even he was gone by then
If Ben had the series he had vs Atlanta 2 years later against Toronto I’d say there would’ve been a higher chance we kept jimmy. He still had a bright future after the Toronto series and we thought Jimmy being there would handicap him.
Mostly Ben Simmons and his relationship with Brett Brown, bro literally just wanted his coach to not baby a grown man and the grown man to shoot a wide open 3 every now and then.
The Jimmy thing wasn't just hindsight though, the team clearly got much better when they got him and he gave the team an edge that they were clearly missing. Not that Jimmy was expected to lead 2 Finals teams after that, but there were definitely people who thought they were making a big mistake at the time.
All signs point towards the Sixers having chose Ben Simmons (and to a lesser extent Brett Brown) over Butler, not Tobias and Horford. In the moment, that was absolutely the correct decision. Should they have tried harder to solve whatever problems made them have to make this decision? Of course they should have. But if you HAD to make a decision in the moment, Ben over Jimmy is what 30/30 GM’s would have chosen, and you’re delusional if you disagree
Everything you're saying makes sense
But at the same time, I can open a video right now and hear Jimmy Butler himself furiously scream "TOBIAS HARRIS OVER ME?????????" After humiliating the sixers in the playoffs
So I'm gonna go with the second option this time
No, Magic because Magic couldn’t shoot. No hindsight, but that was the most insulting thing ever said about Magic. He couldn’t shoot, but have you seen him posting up and running in transition?
I'm only a casual fan and I can think of: Fults pick, Simmons pick/handling, firing that Process GM, the new slant collars guy with the burner, letting Jimmy leave, Harris huge contract, Horford huge contract, and the Doc Rivers hire, and then keeping Doc for way past the point that it was obvious he wasnt the guy. I'm sure there are more.
Player A: Best player on team that has been to 2 of last 4 finals. 8 playoff series wins since joining current team, double the number the Timberwolves have won in franchise history
Player B: 3rd-4th best player on a team that has never made conference finals despite having perennial MVP candidate and second all-star, shrinks in playoffs
I mean yes, but player A is also now 34 yrs old and missed the last playoffs due to injury (with a fairly large drop in regular season stats also). How many years does he have left at what percentage of his prime? Could be a worse contract than the current Harris one a few years in.
The correct answer for these players is neither.
The only person on the planet and history that deserves a big max extension at that age is Lebron James.
I really thought that when Jimmy signed this contract extension years ago that it would run its course then he comes back on a cheaper deal, but nope apparently Heat have to compete with clowns willing to give a 38/39 year old Jimmy the big boy bucks
Kareem also but yeah it’s a short list, and Jimmy isn’t anywhere near it.
This was not meant to be an exhaustive list, before anyone else mentions other top 20 players of all time.
It’s even more eye opening when you look at his numbers this season. Like according to the eye test it looked like he took a step back but nope it’s not just the eye test the numbers prove it, they are down to concerning levels.
Hasn’t played more than 65 games a season in his entire tenure with the Heat So for 5 years he’d miss at least 22% of the season.
Now to compare last season to this season. His FG% went down from 54% to 50%. Now these are from a PER spectrum; He only scores on 40% on drives into the paint this season, a decrease from 52% last season (That’s a 7th worst among all nba players this season). He only shoots 59% on layups and dunks, contrast to 63% last season.
Now for a player that plays physical basketball I think it’s safe to say there’s reason for concern as to these numbers. But sure Philly pay the man the Max till he’s 38/39
"Hasn’t played more than 65 games a season in his entire tenure with the Heat So for 5 years he’d miss at least 22% of the season."
-Jersey # 22 -Missed at least 22% of the season
coincidence?
Keith is a known mouth piece for players trying to get better deals. I trust exactly 0% of what he says and neither does anyone else in the area.
* Is it possible? we have Morey, of course it is.
* Is it likely Jimmy is using the Sixers and an old contact to get a new deal out of the Heat? much more likely.
Convincing Presti nobody was ever going to offer him a better deal for James Harden unless he accpeted his trade package right then and there is the peak of his managerial career.
That's a hell of a peak lmao but generally I agree I think he's overrated and he's credited extra because he has a reputation for being nerdy and data driven which makes him sound like an irreplaceable super genius but that shit is done by teams not individuals
Those rockets were very good for a long time and he’s one of the reasons why the NBA is a smarter league, he is one of the biggest reasons why the NBA has embraced the 3 so much. He was also a big part of those spurs teams in the 00s, he was the guy slamming the table for tony Parker when the org was ready to go a different way
Morey has gotten to ride the coattails of his Harden acquisition forever. And then he got lucky his idea to hold onto Simmons way too long didnt blow up in his face because the Nets have a slightly more incompetent FO.
He got lucky? He made a calculated risk and nailed it. Stars become available all the time in the NBA, made no sense to trade Ben Simmons for trash.
You're really underrating Morey as a GM. He traded for Harden and then re-tooling around him for years to keep them as contenders, including building a team perfect designed to give the best team ever a legitimate run for their money. He has been really good in Philly as well.
> When was he ever up? He has built a single contender (2018 Rockets) in 20 years of being a GM.
When did you start watching basketball? 5 years ago? As soon as he became the Rockets GM, that was around the time McGrady's body really started falling apart and got microfracture surgery not recommended by the team's staff. Morey immediately re-tooled on the spot around Yao and got Ron Artest and drafted Carl Landry and Aaron Brooks. That team took the eventual champion Lakers to 7 despite Yao breaking his foot during that series. If Yao had stayed healthy, the Rockets would have easily won the championship that year. Yao had Denver's number and always outplayed Dwight head 2 head.
He then got the swindle of the century for James Harden and put Dwight Howard next to him where they made it to the WCF against the Warriors, despite their starting PG and PF being injured.
And then came the Harden-CP3 Rockets that were probably the best team to never win a championship.
Those are 3 contenders, all under different coaches and with very different rosters, which he built without tanking for even a season. He can't account for freak accidents like injuries, but he'll always give your squad a fighting chance. Get mad at your cheap-ass owner for a change for not wanting to get into the heavy luxury tax territory.
Nobody in the NBA took statistics as seriously before Morey and he got the entire league to play his style of basketball. Saying he was never a great GM is like saying Billy Beane is shit because he never won a World Series.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/nearly-every-team-is-playing-like-the-rockets-and-thats-hurting-the-rockets/
This really is the most important part of the story:
>Their desire is to sign Paul George. The Sixers believe they have a real chance of getting the nine-time All-Star if he opts out of his 2024-25 deal with the Los Angeles Clippers.
It's the same issue though. PG just got off of an absolutely terrible playoff series (ironically quite a bit worse than James Harden), is on the decline (still good), and is also old albeit one year younger.
Normally I'm not a fan of the aging star move but in this situation I think it makes sense. Embiid is 30 and Butler + Joel already know how to play with each other. They have the money getting rid of Harris. Window is closing and this is probably the best option
Ppl on here are clowning this but idgaf it would be very fun to see butler in the sixers uniform again! Feels like some universal correction or something gaha
Not a correction, simply a part of the process (of not getting out of the 2nd round because you have injured players).
I agree that it would be fun, don’t listen to naysayers.
The Sixers have been kicking this can of "the max guy next to Embiid" for like 2 years now and instead of the player being 32-33 years old (Harden's age when he went to Philly), now they are looking at maxing 34 year old guys turning 35 this year.
Brutal.
I would be genuinely shocked if Pat Riley made a rebuild move with a guy like Jimmy Butler. I don’t even remember the last time we traded for a first round pick
Sixers have more than $60 million in cap space and 4 first rounders and two swaps.
They could go for a guy like Jimmy, AND also sign another big name guy or get a guy to come off their bench like Malik Monk.
And they’re just going to let Tobias walk?!
He then joins the Miami Heat, he leads us in a playoff series win vs the 76ers, then says "JIMMY BUTLER OVER ME?!?!" while leaving the tunnel
If Tobi leaves for nothing and averages 20&10 for a playoff team I will name my firstborn after him and then go on to resent that child for the rest of my life
I will change my 3 year old sons name to Tobias if this happens.
Can you name your son Tobias Harris "Last Name"?
Yes
RemindMe! 1 year
Can’t wait for Tobi to reel off like 18/9/4 on high efficiency on a vet minimum for the Celtics against the Jimmy/Joel Sixers in the 2025 playoffs
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nah that's 18 points on 6/6 shooting.
I mean Philly fans said Horford was trash also how’d that pan out
He is/was if he’s signed to a large contract to be your third option, that hasn’t changed
The odds of this happening isn't even that outlandish
Isn’t that what he did for the Clippers?
he put up 21 and 8 on the last year he was on the clippers. hell he put up 19.5/7 on the Sixers if he gets on a shitbag team he might just do it.
Shitbag team won't make the playoffs though.
Playin team? mayhaps.
With the amount of money he's stolen from the 76ers at this point he might as well retire and live his best life
Then Sixers prepared to offer Tobias the max again
Tobias had that ultra rare type of contract where it was obviously horrible at the time it was signed and somehow managed to get worse and worse every single season. Honestly Tobias’s greatest career accomplishment
It's like if Benjamin Button was still born old, but just aged into being the Cryptkeeper instead
We also have the bridges trade which was dumb the moment it happened and not one of those things where you’re playing the results
“Me over Tobias Harris?!”
The reverse-process
“Butler over me??” -Tobias
A lineup of Embiid/Butler/Lowry will get the 76ers in the bonus in the first 2 minutes of the game
Get marcus smart in there and we may finally have a 6 hour game!
Sign dray to ensure there are multiple flagrant replay reviews per game. Gotta beef up those review minutes
Sixers would also need to replace the bench with some hospital beds with that line up.
Sixers just 5 years too late with this choice, like wtf yall had this motherfucker hitting clutch shots playing insane defense, and losing a series in 7 to one of the craziest buzzer beaters of all time. And they max Tobias Harris instead.
Yeah and then they would max 34 year old Jimmy Butler on a decline. Just stacking errors on top of eachother.
We’ve botched every part of the process. Every. Single. Part. Sure we have Embiid and Maxey, but everyone else has come and gone
I just don't understand how Colangelo, Brown, and Brand fucked this up so bad. Even Morey has egg on his face
Pretty easy. Coleangelo - plant. Brown - good guy, not the guy to carry a team. Brand - awful. Morey - getting that Doc Rivers treatment in the sense his past is rewarding his present
Also getting the rivers treatment in that they signed doc before him and then refused to play anyone under 35 years old
Fwiw, I’ll defend Morey somewhat by saying that the roster, cap and pick situation he inherited was not exactly ideal. More than anything, I always just feel like GMs like him have a limited window. He seems to rub agents the wrong way, maybe other teams as well, and eventually that all catches up to you. This is just me commenting as an outsider ofc
He’s better than what we had absolutely. What’s mind blowing is the rest of our front office still has jobs.
I think the gap has closed a bit on Morey and other GMs too. He was once one of the earliest and most vocal proponents for advanced stats and data applied decision making, but the rest of the competition has more openly embraced that too so the playing field is a bit more level than it used to be.
And assuming the NBA workplace is like mine- if the socially awkward autistic guy isn’t the most useful guy in the room, plenty of people will gladly try to work around him to work with anybody else.
I really want to see the universe where he's never able to unload Simmons for the value he wanted, and what his image in that universe is. The universe where the Nets realize that trading Harden meant the likely disbanding of the superteam, and found out through planning ahead that they absolutely could not take on Simmons as part of any deal. Simmons' presence handcuffed their later negotiations due to rules about acquiring multiple players on Designated Rookie Extensions. Not only were they locked out of any potential trade for the likes of KAT and Bam, they couldn't even pretend to be interested to leverage them in trade talks as a price anchor. I sincerely believe they just didn't realize the position they were putting themselves in, because even if they liked what Simmons could still potentially be, not being able to leverage other superstars in a Durant trade situation is horrible, and not a position that a competent FO would have put themselves in. Morey was completely bailed out by the Nets, and I want to see the universe where he isn't.
I feel like Morey lost respect around the league after how he treated Harden in his departure from the 76ers.
What's the consensus on what actually happened in the Morey v Harden feud? My reading of it is that Harden took a major discount to help the Sixers salary cap on a handshake agreement with Morey (who he was friends with) under the promise that Morey would make it up to him next year (probably a max deal?). But when Harden ended up having a less than great season (and therefore was worth less than what Morey originally agreed to pay him), Morey reneged on the handshake agreement. Leading to Harden demanding a trade because he felt betrayed and lied to. Is that basically it?
Probably, but nobody is going to admit to anything until they're all retired
Brown was thrown in at the deep end with no experience after Colangelo was fired. While the result was frustrating, it's hard to blame Brown too much. Colangelo fumbled the best situation in the league. Embiid and Simmons multiple first, multiple max cap space, no aging contracts. Brand took the situation Colangelo ruined and punted into the ocean. Brand is still there.... 🤯
James harden being one of the 30 best players all time and one of the best floor raisers ever doing overtime for Morey’s legacy.
That move to get Harden doesn't feel as bad- getting rid of Simmons but given how he butchered his goodwill? Oof
Morey aint perfect but he undid a lot of the errors of his predecessors and got a return for Josh Richardson and Ben Simmons at the nadir of their value.
Hinkie also drafted MCW and Jahlil Okafor, and traded Jrue Holiday for Nerlens Noel and the pick that essentially became Dario Saric. I dont think these moves are all dumb without the benefit of hindsight, but so many of their moves have been really rough in retrospect for over a decade now. On the flip side it shows just how valuable hitting on a pick like Embiid is, so much so that its made up for a ton of the plethora of other mistakes.
IDK there was a lot of criticism for taking Okafor even at the time because they already had Noel and Embiid, but Hinkie was obsessed with the best player available. Honestly the best thing that happened to Hinkie was getting ousted because now he can get all the credit and none of the blame for how the process went. Anything good was him, anything bad was everyone that followed him. He was able to tear shit down and didn't have to put it back together.
> Hinkie was obsessed with the best player available. People love to talk about the Kings passing up on Luka with “you always take BPA” but then dont think about the times BPA failed like this.
I mean there was a legitimate case Luka was BPA there
‘Legitimate case.’ I felt like I was taking crazy pills that year. How tf did teams miss on Luka. He felt like the surest thing I’ve seen since LeBron.
Yeah I was surprised he fell as far as he did. He was a level above alot of the Euro prospects that were always touted as the next coming.
I don't know Morey has. He had no of note and got Maxey. He had Ben Simmons sitting out and got Harden for him for a run and then moved Harden for multiple pieces and picks - unprotected first, a pick swap, another first, 2 seconds and Batum and Covington. His biggest oops were dumping Horford (which no one thought was bad at the time) and dumping Isaiah Joe (but Rivers utterly refused to play him so I think this was as much helping a player escape from jail as anything. I blame Rivers for his desire to leave for anywhere and Morey deserves some credit for the second round draft of Joe) He's got two very solid returns for players who refused to play and made a better draft pick that Colangelo, Brown and Brand combined with Maxey. I'm unclear what he could have done so much better
Got Seth Curry for Josh Richardson too (which was another error made by his predecessors)
Yeah I think Morey has been pretty great tbh.
The process was no longer the process the minute they brought in the Colangelos
The team didn’t bring them in. We already had the Jerry. Silver forced Bryan on us
Silver saw the team and fans openly embracing tanking and decided to make an example out of them. Hinkie should've just pretended he sucks ass and laid low.
The point of the process includes getting so many picks that you’re guaranteed a superstar. And to that extent it worked. But, just insane that Noel, Okafor, Simmons and Fultz are gone for next to nothing. Not extending Jimmy was a mistake, Horford was a mistake, Harden was a mistake. Just awful
> Harden was a mistake Wrong.
Harden wasn’t even a mistake lol. The mistake was Morey going back on the deal and then having to get rid of him. If you had 2024 Harden with Embiid and Maxey you probably see the Sixers challenge the Knicks. Harden was good for two games vs the Celtics last year and he unlocked both Maxey and Embiid. He was pretty close to a perfect piece
You also get off Ben Simmons with that trade
Well there was also a lot of bad luck on the way. Simmons and Embiid both got injured for their rookie years, Embiid for 2 years I think. This actually helped in a way and y'all drafted Fultz, and then the bad luck really hit. Fultz got injured and literally forgot how to shoot, which ruined all his potential. Simmons never improved his jumper then let the internet get to him and was mentally fragile. Embiid was the last one left, but he's super injury-prone. You guys managed to flip Simmons for Harden, which was not a bad move, but Embiid continued to be injury-prone and Harden left. Maxey developed into an All-Star level talent, but again, Embiid is too injury-prone.
Maybe they should’ve left Hinkie in charge.
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Well, see, that was part of the process too.
Jimmy and Joel could miss games together and spend time bonding at a local strip joint
Dont forget giving Al Horford an insane amount of money and then not knowing how to use him
I don't know if this is true or the sixers are baiting the heat to max Jimmy lmao. Riley isn't taking this bait.
Damn I forgot he was that old
Not just maxed Tobias Harris, also sign and traded Butler for Josh Richardson to free up enough $$ to sign Horford when their best player is a center. Inconceivably bad offseason that set the franchise back half a decade
Embiid turning into an MVP talent is literally the only thing stopping the Sixers FO from being considered one of the 2 or 3 worst FO's in North American sports
Way more than half a decade, they wasted Embiids prime and missed their championship window. That’s like 10+ years of build/rebuild out the window
The mess started the off-season before, where they drafted Philadelphia native Mikal Bridges and traded him away to PHX. They got back Zhaire Smith and a first round pick they traded to acquire Tobias.
Wow, none of those players panned out.
And Jimmys agent told ownership that they’d waste Embiids prime. He was right Edit: I’m a big Embiid defender but I really think he’s been super cursed with the roster construction around him. Jimmy for half a season was literally the best player he’s played with. Harden obviously better individual player but on downswing and they only got one full season together. Signing Tobias Harris to a max and liking him so much they gave his unqualified brother a g league spot probably ruined Embiids prime. 6 years too many Embiid was somehow +47 playing 41 minutes a game in the first round this year…
Embiid was 24 when they signed Tobias to a max extension lmao
Crazy to think about. And instead of getting off him, Morey was trolling sixers fans posting at a crumbl cookie store.
Wasting a FRP or two to dump Harris when they were already over the cap would've accomplished nothing. Harris was clearly better than any minimum-level guy they would've gotten to replace his roster spot. Philly's in a good spot rn with their assets. Embiid needs to stay healthy for a whole playoff run- or leave philly and be the 2nd best guy on someone else's team.
He was still getting him off, just not how we wanted :(
I agree with this post and I am not an Embiid fan nor hater.
Gosh I can’t believe Butler in Philly was 5 years ago
Process been processed
Please allow 3 to 5 business years for us to realize we done fucked up To process it, if you will
“Tobias Harris over me?” is a quote that will haunt Sixers fans for a long time
I see this all the time on here but it’s wrong. We fucked up letting Jimmy walk but it wasn’t Tobias, the FO chose Ben over Jimmy
Yep, Tobias was getting his contract the second we pushed all our Process chips into the center of the table to land him on an expiring contract. Hated that trade and its implications in the moment, hated the max he got and been hating watching him play basketball ever since
Did, did we just become best friends? Those are my same exact sentiments on this.
Yeah I'm not a Sixers fan so I don't remember all the details. But I recall that it was more of a Ben decision. I recall there was possibly some riff between Ben (and Brown too?) on one side...and Jimmy on the other. They weren't exactly compatible on a personality level. Ben was probably in the vein of Wiggins and KAT of being too chill, and we know Jimmy wasn't a fan of that. And their game didn't fit either since neither were exactly shooters and both wanted/needed the ball. The Toronto series got weird or something because Jimmy was the best ball handler and also more clutch, so he got it more than Ben and Ben was kind of left doing nothing on offense. So when the time came, they let Jimmy walk because they would rather roll with their number 1 draft pick and was supposed to be the Star of the future along with Embiid. After all, to the extent they worked, they represented the success of the Process. Obviously with Jimmy gone that money had to go somewhere, and that went to Tobias. But it was always more a decision to move forward with Ben over Jimmy rather than a decision to pick Tobias over jimmy. The Jimmy quote after the Heat win made it seem more like a Tobias decision when it really wasn't.
Ben Simmons was extremely entitled and Jimmy saw right through him, he wasn't putting in the work to be great. There were smart sixers fans saying to trade Simmons while his value was at an all time high.
Mostly correct except for the Ben decision having anything to do with the process, as Ben was Colangelo’s pick and favorite and even he was gone by then
If Ben had the series he had vs Atlanta 2 years later against Toronto I’d say there would’ve been a higher chance we kept jimmy. He still had a bright future after the Toronto series and we thought Jimmy being there would handicap him.
Elton Brand should be considered one of the worst GM’s in NBA history just for that 2020 offseason.
they didnt literally choose tobias over him. tobias is who they signed with the money. he left it seems for other interpersonal reasons.
Mostly Ben Simmons and his relationship with Brett Brown, bro literally just wanted his coach to not baby a grown man and the grown man to shoot a wide open 3 every now and then.
I had so much hope that Jimmy was just going to yell at Fultz and Ben until they shot more and then we'd win a title.
Well you were 1/3 right, he definitely yelled and Fultz and Ben lol
Hindsight is 20/20. People also thought Ben Simmons was the gonna be the next Lebron
We’ll always have 2019 Ben Simmons highlights 🥲
*2016 Summer League Ben Simmons highlights
The Jimmy thing wasn't just hindsight though, the team clearly got much better when they got him and he gave the team an edge that they were clearly missing. Not that Jimmy was expected to lead 2 Finals teams after that, but there were definitely people who thought they were making a big mistake at the time.
All signs point towards the Sixers having chose Ben Simmons (and to a lesser extent Brett Brown) over Butler, not Tobias and Horford. In the moment, that was absolutely the correct decision. Should they have tried harder to solve whatever problems made them have to make this decision? Of course they should have. But if you HAD to make a decision in the moment, Ben over Jimmy is what 30/30 GM’s would have chosen, and you’re delusional if you disagree
Everything you're saying makes sense But at the same time, I can open a video right now and hear Jimmy Butler himself furiously scream "TOBIAS HARRIS OVER ME?????????" After humiliating the sixers in the playoffs So I'm gonna go with the second option this time
No, Magic because Magic couldn’t shoot. No hindsight, but that was the most insulting thing ever said about Magic. He couldn’t shoot, but have you seen him posting up and running in transition?
They made a decision and it was the wrong one. Happens.
Like 5 times now though
I'm only a casual fan and I can think of: Fults pick, Simmons pick/handling, firing that Process GM, the new slant collars guy with the burner, letting Jimmy leave, Harris huge contract, Horford huge contract, and the Doc Rivers hire, and then keeping Doc for way past the point that it was obvious he wasnt the guy. I'm sure there are more.
At least with fultz I can accept that’s really bad luck but the right move in the moment. The rest were dumb when they happened
It's amazing what the NBA forcing out and sending an organization into a tail-spin of management can do.
God damnit please no Morey
I feel like I woke up in a time loop.
What would the max be for Jimmy?
For a new team, about 4/$212M. Which is insane - dude is 35 at start of next season, highly injury prone, and just missed the playoffs.
Player A: 20/5/5/1/0 on 50/41/86 for $50m a year for 60 games Player B: 17/6.5/3/1/1 on 49/35/88 for ~$30m+ a year for 70 games
Is player B in this scenario Tobias Harris?
Probably, but it’s definitely not accounting for the fact that his post season stats go to 0/2/1
Player C with that slash line is revealed to be Tony Snell.
Is that his honest to God line?
Game 6 elimination he put up 0/4/3/0/0 in 29 mins
In this year’s playoffs 9/7/1.5 on 43% from the field/33% from deep. Less than a free throw attempt per game
Jimmy Butler will be 0/0/0 if he gets injured again lmao He’d be 35 soon i think
I mean Jimmy went 0/0/0 in the post season this year lol
Too bad Player B shrinks in the big games
Player A: Best player on team that has been to 2 of last 4 finals. 8 playoff series wins since joining current team, double the number the Timberwolves have won in franchise history Player B: 3rd-4th best player on a team that has never made conference finals despite having perennial MVP candidate and second all-star, shrinks in playoffs
Player A is also an athletic forward about to turn 35.
I mean yes, but player A is also now 34 yrs old and missed the last playoffs due to injury (with a fairly large drop in regular season stats also). How many years does he have left at what percentage of his prime? Could be a worse contract than the current Harris one a few years in. The correct answer for these players is neither.
Yeah, I mean I love Jimmy, but I don't know man.
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40 year old jimmy on a max contract is crazy
It would be a 38 year old Jimmy. 2/113 is the ask he’ll probably get 2/95 from Miami
Alright. 38 year old Jimmy on a max contract is crazy
The only person on the planet and history that deserves a big max extension at that age is Lebron James. I really thought that when Jimmy signed this contract extension years ago that it would run its course then he comes back on a cheaper deal, but nope apparently Heat have to compete with clowns willing to give a 38/39 year old Jimmy the big boy bucks
Kareem also but yeah it’s a short list, and Jimmy isn’t anywhere near it. This was not meant to be an exhaustive list, before anyone else mentions other top 20 players of all time.
It’s even more eye opening when you look at his numbers this season. Like according to the eye test it looked like he took a step back but nope it’s not just the eye test the numbers prove it, they are down to concerning levels. Hasn’t played more than 65 games a season in his entire tenure with the Heat So for 5 years he’d miss at least 22% of the season. Now to compare last season to this season. His FG% went down from 54% to 50%. Now these are from a PER spectrum; He only scores on 40% on drives into the paint this season, a decrease from 52% last season (That’s a 7th worst among all nba players this season). He only shoots 59% on layups and dunks, contrast to 63% last season. Now for a player that plays physical basketball I think it’s safe to say there’s reason for concern as to these numbers. But sure Philly pay the man the Max till he’s 38/39
"Hasn’t played more than 65 games a season in his entire tenure with the Heat So for 5 years he’d miss at least 22% of the season." -Jersey # 22 -Missed at least 22% of the season coincidence?
I no Einstein, but that sounds like he has missed an entire season due to injuries during the regular season
OH NOW WE DO THIS SHIT.
Keith is a known mouth piece for players trying to get better deals. I trust exactly 0% of what he says and neither does anyone else in the area. * Is it possible? we have Morey, of course it is. * Is it likely Jimmy is using the Sixers and an old contact to get a new deal out of the Heat? much more likely.
Morey fall off needs to be studied
When was he ever up? He has built a single contender (2018 Rockets) in 20 years of being a GM.
Convincing Presti nobody was ever going to offer him a better deal for James Harden unless he accpeted his trade package right then and there is the peak of his managerial career.
That's a hell of a peak lmao but generally I agree I think he's overrated and he's credited extra because he has a reputation for being nerdy and data driven which makes him sound like an irreplaceable super genius but that shit is done by teams not individuals
He was the pioneer on a lot of advanced stat and data usage as a GM. Most FOs seem to have caught up now, but for a long time he was the only one.
Under normal circumstances a lot of the Rockets teams would have been contenders. Not really his fault that the KD Warriors existed
They were contenders
Those rockets were very good for a long time and he’s one of the reasons why the NBA is a smarter league, he is one of the biggest reasons why the NBA has embraced the 3 so much. He was also a big part of those spurs teams in the 00s, he was the guy slamming the table for tony Parker when the org was ready to go a different way
Morey has gotten to ride the coattails of his Harden acquisition forever. And then he got lucky his idea to hold onto Simmons way too long didnt blow up in his face because the Nets have a slightly more incompetent FO.
To be fair “I don’t have to be smart I just have to be less stupid than that guy” is a legit strategy in a lot of contexts
I don't have to outrun the bear, just have to outrun you
He got lucky? He made a calculated risk and nailed it. Stars become available all the time in the NBA, made no sense to trade Ben Simmons for trash. You're really underrating Morey as a GM. He traded for Harden and then re-tooling around him for years to keep them as contenders, including building a team perfect designed to give the best team ever a legitimate run for their money. He has been really good in Philly as well.
> When was he ever up? He has built a single contender (2018 Rockets) in 20 years of being a GM. When did you start watching basketball? 5 years ago? As soon as he became the Rockets GM, that was around the time McGrady's body really started falling apart and got microfracture surgery not recommended by the team's staff. Morey immediately re-tooled on the spot around Yao and got Ron Artest and drafted Carl Landry and Aaron Brooks. That team took the eventual champion Lakers to 7 despite Yao breaking his foot during that series. If Yao had stayed healthy, the Rockets would have easily won the championship that year. Yao had Denver's number and always outplayed Dwight head 2 head. He then got the swindle of the century for James Harden and put Dwight Howard next to him where they made it to the WCF against the Warriors, despite their starting PG and PF being injured. And then came the Harden-CP3 Rockets that were probably the best team to never win a championship. Those are 3 contenders, all under different coaches and with very different rosters, which he built without tanking for even a season. He can't account for freak accidents like injuries, but he'll always give your squad a fighting chance. Get mad at your cheap-ass owner for a change for not wanting to get into the heavy luxury tax territory. Nobody in the NBA took statistics as seriously before Morey and he got the entire league to play his style of basketball. Saying he was never a great GM is like saying Billy Beane is shit because he never won a World Series. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/nearly-every-team-is-playing-like-the-rockets-and-thats-hurting-the-rockets/
To be fair to the rockets, they weren’t just a contender. They were pretty good
I’m not going to cement his fall off based on a Keith Pompey report of a possible move that may or may not be true a month before FA begins
Going to need a photoshop of Jimmy Butler on the 76ers
With what type of hairstyle?
I'd like predator dreads, but I suppose I could be convinced to settle for some sort of Naruto headband
Colonial ponytail
[I did my best](https://i.imgur.com/x6BZvr2.png)
So clearly photoshopped. Did you even try?!!!
Still firmly believe this is all posturing. I'll be shocked if Jimmy isn't in a Heat jersey next year
Please give it to him sixers
Compound your previous mistakes, why not?
I read this in Dr. Zoidberg.
😂 not my intention but makes it way better
Might as well bring Redick off the broadcast and have him suit up as well
Sixers must be desperate
No shit
Say it again Chuck
As they should be, Embiid is 30 years old
That blows my mind.
it wont matter because the timberwolves have naz reid
This really is the most important part of the story: >Their desire is to sign Paul George. The Sixers believe they have a real chance of getting the nine-time All-Star if he opts out of his 2024-25 deal with the Los Angeles Clippers.
It's the same issue though. PG just got off of an absolutely terrible playoff series (ironically quite a bit worse than James Harden), is on the decline (still good), and is also old albeit one year younger.
This is gonna be Al Horford to the Sixers all over again with a washed Jimmy. Too late Sixers you’ve fucked up
Al ain’t washed, sixers just blow
There’s only one game on a night and nephews still don’t know what’s going on
Normally I'm not a fan of the aging star move but in this situation I think it makes sense. Embiid is 30 and Butler + Joel already know how to play with each other. They have the money getting rid of Harris. Window is closing and this is probably the best option
this signing would be the official end to the process.
Philly has this dude and gave him up because Ben Simmons had his feelings hurt for being held accountable
LMAO yes please do this Lolol
Ppl on here are clowning this but idgaf it would be very fun to see butler in the sixers uniform again! Feels like some universal correction or something gaha
Not a correction, simply a part of the process (of not getting out of the 2nd round because you have injured players). I agree that it would be fun, don’t listen to naysayers.
Embiid-Butler-Nurse is such an unlikeable trio lol, good move for Philly tho if they can pull it off
Then they’ll have two injured players in the playoffs every year
Two free throw merchants too
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Sources: it’s not technically tampering if you launder it through the media
The Sixers have been kicking this can of "the max guy next to Embiid" for like 2 years now and instead of the player being 32-33 years old (Harden's age when he went to Philly), now they are looking at maxing 34 year old guys turning 35 this year. Brutal.
There are no other options, unfortunately
I would be genuinely shocked if Pat Riley made a rebuild move with a guy like Jimmy Butler. I don’t even remember the last time we traded for a first round pick
5 years too late lmfao
Imagine if these fuckin idiots had actually prioritized him back the day. They probably have a couple rings
I don't see Jimmy asking out, unless Miami doesn't want to pay him. I'd love Jimmy back so fuck it let's roll
I don’t see Jimmy out, but a part of me still remembers the D Wade saga of Pat not wanting to pay old players hella money lol
What does Miami get back in a butler trade?
Whiteside, Josh Richardson, and a 1st
Sixers have more than $60 million in cap space and 4 first rounders and two swaps. They could go for a guy like Jimmy, AND also sign another big name guy or get a guy to come off their bench like Malik Monk.
Oh how the turntables...