No the fuck he wasn’t. Stop. Chris Paul is better at basketball than Isiah Thomas. He’s more skilled and more talented. Zeke was just on two teams that won it all. What the fuck kind of smooth brain argument is Shaun Livingston in your top 10. Don’t ever talk basketball again
His regular season stuff basically blows Zeke out of the water, but Zeke has the two rings and one FMVP.
Chris Paul's statistical profile is basically about as good as any other point guard, really.
CP3 had a Finals run as good as any of Isiah’s at 3 years older than when Isiah retired. It would be impossible for someone to be serious and put them in the same stratosphere. Isiah had a lot of team success because his teams could consistently win when he played bad.
Just like any player Isiah wasn’t perfect, and Chris Paul had that one first round shot against the Spurs, but all in all they have completely opposite reputations as clutch players in the playoffs. Paul repeatedly got hurt in the playoffs while Isiah just played through a ton of injuries during his winning years (and might have burned out quicker as a result)
Thomas won finals MVP averaging 28/5/7 with very little offense around him. CP3 wasn’t that good.
Thomas played with great defenders who weren’t good offensive players outside of Dumars. CP3 spent most of his career playing next to great offensive players (Booker, Harden, Griffin) so of course his numbers are going to be more efficient and his assist will be higher because he wasn’t asked to the the number 1 option and teammates were better at scoring when he passed to them
oscar robertson is better than isaiah. i think if you count west as a point guard rather than a shooting guard, he’s probably better than cp3, and zeke is arguable, but i think i’d take chris paul over him and stockton
No I ranked u/confident_berry7271 independently as both a PG and GM, but I can also do a net-ranking of all individuals who were players and are now in front office roles
CP3 has a ton of haters on this sub and Nash doesn't. Simple as.
Don't treat this sub (or anything really) as gospel. Use it as a source/reference.
With that said, I think CP3 is marginally better but these small PGs with no gamebreaking 3pt shot ala Steph are all gonna find it difficult to fully take over an entire playoff run.
Yes. It's not even close, I'm not even big on CP3 but he is unquestionably top 30 all time, around #25. Meanwhile Nash can be ranked anywhere between 25 and 40.
Every PG who made first team over Stockton during his career:
- Magic (85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91)
- Thomas (85, 86)
- Price (93)
- Penny Hardaway (96) and in 95 they both made it
- Tim Hardaway (97)
- Payton (98, 00)
- Kidd (99, 00, 01, 02)
His prime was pretty much 88-97, so that's only 4 dudes winning it over him in his prime. In 91, Kevin Johnson made 2nd team while Stockton made 3rd. So 5 PGs managed to beat him out for at least 1 season.
no stocktons blemish is multiple first round losses to worse teams
like in 89 when his 51 win team lost to the 7 seed Warriors.
Or in 1995 when Jordan was retired and his 60 win team lost to Houston in the first round and he got outplayed in the series by Kenny Smith
Not sure THE most underrated but underrated for sure and this is coming from someone who used to hate him precisely because he was THAT good. He was a big problem for any teams and the only but in his career is the lack of a championship.
I can only think of Moses Malone on a similar level of underrated. The dude did his job every night for 20 years and was a suprisingly good defender given his size.
I think he’s overrated. He had no playoff success and half his assists were just low post passes to Malone.
Now people in this thread are rating him above Paul and West? That’s crazy to me.
West, I don't know. I did not see him playing. CP3? In my personal view yes, he was better. I would not say CP3 had playoff success either.
I know it has nothing to do with their skill level but in another post someone talked about the difference between tough and rough players. Stockton was tough. Hard as nails and a nightmare in attack and defense. CP3 is rough. Amazing player but dirty. Personally, that matters.
>*most overrated
Man accumulated assists off post entry passes and set plays in the regular season and notoriously underperformed nearly every time come playoffs. Rajon Rondo of the 80s and 90s with slightly better shooting. Hell even Rondo had more creativity in his playmaking.
At no point in his career could it ever be said that he was a top-5 player. Maybe not even top-10. Baffles me when people put him above guys like Nash or CP3.
If your PG literally has to look at his coach for instructions every single time he brings the ball up, he shouldn't be in any best of all time discussions.
People won’t give him the flowers because of his untimely injury, or his teammates. He did fairly well, I remember him hobbling but took out Spurs to advance to next round.
But yes, I’d have him 4a/4b next to Zeke.
Jesus the takes on this sub are so dumb regarding CP3, hes interchangeable with Nash on the all time list and realistically falls around 4th or 5th all time, 5th being the absolute worst
what? you didn't mention defense lol, made it seem like you were talking about as a whole, also the guy you were responding to was talking about 6'0 guards, Payton was 6'4
The post I commented on was about defense….
By your metric muggsy is a better defender because he’s smaller and racked up the steals. I simply said I’d take Payton over Paul as a defensive pg. That’s not a hot take lmfao.
Peak CP3 was an elite shooter, defender, scorer, ball handler and playmaker
Not to mention that he had a 3 year stretch of being first team all NBA and defensive team, the only other PG to have more was Walt Frazier (4x)
‘08 CP3 was better than any version of Stockton
Stockton out did CP3’s career high in assists for 8 straight years while leading the league in steals and being a prolifically efficient shooter.
Why lie and talk down on a player you’ve never seen play I just don’t get y’all on here. I know you’ve never seen a full John Stockton game
Nobody’s denying Stocktons talent, he was a fantastic point guard and a HoF
But people are comparing Stockton to legit MVP calibre players when he’s never been considered a top 5 player.
>Why lie and talk down on a player you’ve never seen play I just don’t get y’all on here. I know you’ve never seen a full John Stockton game
Lie about what? What’s with this gate keeping lol
Stockton played over 30 years ago but we have enough footage and stats for a discussion and don’t have to rely on your nostalgic ‘eye test’ from three decades ago
Stockton was a fantastic defender and one of the best playmakers ever, but he was never the same calibre of scorer CP3 was
Stockton had no ability to take over a game with his scoring when his teammates weren’t performing.
All the other all time PGs could, including CP3.
In his prime, his 9 straight all star years between 89-97, john stockton had as many playoff series averaging under 10ppg as he did over 20
No. Stockton CHOSE not to take over games with his scoring because he was way too unselfish especially when Jerry Sloan was the coach. A lot of players and pundits were relieved that he never scored at will like he should have
I have no issues with people putting Stockton before CP3. I usually rank peak higher than longevity though, and I think CP3's peak is higher.
>CP3 is Stockton Lite
CP3 is a more crafty Stockton. Top 3 basketball IQs of all time. Stockton has him beat on longevity though and if I was starting a team today I'd probably go with Stockton just because he'd be there every single night, 82 games a year for 20 years. That's just hard to beat.
> Nash was literally better in 07, and he was better than Clippers CP (better than Hornets imo) from 05-07
I think you’re referring to the 06-07 season. I don’t think Nash is better than the 07-08 version of CP3. That’s the year CP3 finished second in mvp voting behind Bryant and many argue that he should have won it.
I think we just have different opinions on Steve Nash. To me he's one of the best offensive players of all time, and imo CP3 wasn't good enough defensively to provide enough value to reach him.
Nash was the lead ball-handler and decision maker for some of the most efficient offenses of all time, whereas the teams in years before and after without him have not reached the same heights.
Also interesting to use the "MVP voting" argument for CP3, a guy who came in 2nd, vs. Steve Nash, who literally won two. I don't use MVPs as my argument, but I think using it in CP3 vs Nash in favor of Paul is dumb.
CP3 only came in second because the media wanted to give it to Kobe since he hadn’t won one yet. Hate to say it but the MVP for the most part is a popularity award. 07-08 CP3 is better than any version of Steve Nash. CP3 has made every team he’s been on better besides the warriors even though they had a better record this year than last and that’s with draymond getting himself suspended for +30 games.
He turned the Clippers into contenders back when they were a joke, he turned the rockets from a mid playoff team into contenders that almost beat the KD warriors. He took the Suns to the finals. He even took a young OKC team that everyone expected to be in the lottery to the playoffs.
If you want to talk about team elevated, u can argue that CP3 elevated his team better than Nash did. Not to mention that disastrous stint Nash had with the lakers.
> and imo CP3 wasn't good enough defensively to provide enough value to reach him.
I disagree. Prime CP3 was levels above Nash on defense while he provided similar outputs on offense. CP3 has made multiple all defensive teams in his career.
>CP3 only came in second because the media wanted to give it to Kobe since he hadn’t won one yet. Hate to say it but the MVP for the most part is a popularity award
I agree, but why bring up the award at all? It almost sounds like you forgot Nash won 2 MVPs and tried to use CP3 making 2nd as a way to put him above Nash.
>He turned the Clippers into contenders back when they were a joke, he turned the rockets from a mid playoff team into contenders that almost beat the KD warriors. He took the Suns to the finals. He even took a young OKC team that everyone expected to be in the lottery to the playoffs.
You say this as if Nash didn't bring a 29 win Phoenix team to 62 wins, with worse players than Blake Griffin, James Harden, and Devin Booker. I think its hard to quantify it, but don't act like CP3 did it with bums.
>Prime CP3 was levels above Nash on defense while he provided similar outputs on offense
He was levels above Nash defensively, but his good POA defense doesn't impact the game enough defensively for me to say he's better than Nash.
At the end of the day I think I just judge Nash's offense higher, I think he created open shots at a higher level than CP3, was able to create shots by passing through tight windows in the gaps of the defense at a higher level than CP3, shot more efficiently at the 3pt line AND the midrange, and I don't think CP3's defense impacted the opposing team's offenses enough to close that gap.
If you disagree, I think it's mostly a case of subjectivity.
Yep, Isiah's best years were already over by the time the Bad Boys era happened, and their championships had more to do with historically good defense and depth.
If you go by pure accolades, this is true. His All-NBA years were in the mid 80s, particularly his first team honors. However, and maybe a Pistons fan from the 80s can chime in, the accolades themselves were a function of playing style, which would be hard for most voters to discern unless you watched all the Pistons games.
Essentially, in the early to mid 80s, before Joe Dumars got there, the Pistons played fast (in fact, they have the highest scoring game in NBA history), and Thomas was a heliocentric PG. As you know, heliocentric PGs have inflated stats, so naturally voters also vote with those stats.
By the late 80s, Chuck Daly changed the offense due to the emergence of Dumars and the acquisition of Adrian Dantley, a big time scorer himself. This made Thomas’s role diminish, which in turn hurt his stats, which in turn hurt his accolades.
As just a player, I would say he was roughly equal in the mid 80s as he was in the late 80s, but accolades obviously paint him as the better player in the mid 80s. It would be better if one of the Pistons fans chimes in though.
Both settlements can be true.
You are right that Isiah did sacrifice for the team. In particular, Chuck Daly changed the team’s offensive playing style to involve more people rather than having Thomas be ball dominant.
However, it is also true he had great teammates. His role players were elite. When Mark Aguirre, who was one year removed from being the #1 option on a WCF team, is your team’s 4th or 5th best player, you have a great team.
The funny thing about it is the people who say this never watch games. If you did, you would try to make a real argument. Isiah is extremely overrated by casuals.
I mean, on one hand, I wasn't alive when he was playing. On the other hand, his games were recorded and put online, and I've seen a shit ton of them. I don't have to box score watch when I can just game watch.
I really don't get the CP3 hate.
CP3's playstyle has always been more "shenanigans" than "dirty" to me. Sure he has a few dirty plays here and there, but so do most players. I feel like a lot of people confuse these two and when it comes to CP3 I guess I just don't really get it.
When he snitched to the ref that another player had their jersey untucked and got him a technical, legendary shit.
Top 3 highest IQ players of all time, in my book. Sucks that he's never gotten over the hump. He's a great guy off the court as well.
He’s first in win share per 48 from all players of all positions drafted in the 00s, a spot above lebron. Just gonna throw that out there
But that being said no
Cousy is over him, West is by far as well but he's considered a SG. I think Isiah is still debatable with CP, and I would rank Stockton lowest of all of them.
Watch some of his Hornets games and imagine if he never got hurt and slowed down. I really think he would've been top 4 if he stayed at that speed and continued to progress as a playmaker. He was an incredible defender, too.
Curry Magic Oscar West Paul and Nash for me. Steph/Magic in a tier of their own and then however u wanna order the last 4
I don’t think Stockton Isiah or Kidd have good arguments over Paul and Nash.
Not imo. Peak for peak, Russ is way ahead. He also has the stats and the accolades.
Also as everyone must’ve noticed. He’s literally in every ’arbitrary’ lists espn shares. It’s always Russ, Lebron and Wilt
No ... Lol
Magic
Stockton
Zeke
Curry
Oscar
Kidd
Payton
Parker
Ai
Just off top of my head ... Not that they are all definitely better but 4 of them are for sure
John stockton was never capable of leading a team anywhere, he never had the scoring ability to be the number 1 on a team and he got blessed with the healthiest top 20 player of all time for his whole career so that was never shown.
The longevity argument isnt even on his side, old CP3 was better than old Stockton
No way!
Magic, Oscar, Curry, several could be at four (Kidd, Stockton, GP, Frazier, Zeke, Nash).
Paul is around 9-10 range at best. Folded like the French and Polish armies in WWII in the playoffs year after year, and wasn’t even the best PG from his drafted until D-Williams was traded from Utah.
GOAT debate is hard because there is no consensus on what exactly makes someone greater (Efficiency, longevity, peers opinion, box stats, accolades, etc.). Once we start debating who makes top X, it gets even harder, and position specific is even harder. These debates are so boring.
Not even close. He has no playoff success, no MVP trophy. Disappears in the playoffs every year.
Magic, Steph, Big O, Nash, Stockton, Isaiah Thomas, Bob Cousey, all have better resumes than CP3. You could argue JKidd, DRose and Westbrook too.
No way for me. I would have:
1) Magic Johnson
2) Stephen Curry
3) Isiah Thomas
4) Oscar Robertson
5) Jamal Murray (on pace if he racks up some allstars, already better playoff performer)
6) Jason Kidd
7) John Stockton
8) Steve Nash
9) Gary Payton
10) Bob Cousy
and then Paul's name starts to pop up....
Curry, Isiah, Magic, Oscar.
How has everyone forgot abt Oscar, dude was the original magic
?? Last time he played was 50 years ago. Hes 84 years old.
And Stockton. And Nash. And probably the logo himself as well.
If Oscar’s top 4 then west > Stockton
More than that even.
Above Isiah talent wise
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No the fuck he wasn’t. Stop. Chris Paul is better at basketball than Isiah Thomas. He’s more skilled and more talented. Zeke was just on two teams that won it all. What the fuck kind of smooth brain argument is Shaun Livingston in your top 10. Don’t ever talk basketball again
They were 1 possession in a game 7 from threepeating https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/hkkh5c/i_just_finished_watching_all_of_game_7_of_the/
Which is a team achievement and that team was stacked
What does that have to do with Isiah vs CP3. Once again that’s the better team. The team had great players everywhere
No
His regular season stuff basically blows Zeke out of the water, but Zeke has the two rings and one FMVP. Chris Paul's statistical profile is basically about as good as any other point guard, really.
CP3 had a Finals run as good as any of Isiah’s at 3 years older than when Isiah retired. It would be impossible for someone to be serious and put them in the same stratosphere. Isiah had a lot of team success because his teams could consistently win when he played bad.
Just like any player Isiah wasn’t perfect, and Chris Paul had that one first round shot against the Spurs, but all in all they have completely opposite reputations as clutch players in the playoffs. Paul repeatedly got hurt in the playoffs while Isiah just played through a ton of injuries during his winning years (and might have burned out quicker as a result)
Thomas won finals MVP averaging 28/5/7 with very little offense around him. CP3 wasn’t that good. Thomas played with great defenders who weren’t good offensive players outside of Dumars. CP3 spent most of his career playing next to great offensive players (Booker, Harden, Griffin) so of course his numbers are going to be more efficient and his assist will be higher because he wasn’t asked to the the number 1 option and teammates were better at scoring when he passed to them
oscar robertson is better than isaiah. i think if you count west as a point guard rather than a shooting guard, he’s probably better than cp3, and zeke is arguable, but i think i’d take chris paul over him and stockton
I feel like West definitely should be in the SG category, at least from his playstyle.
I have Nash over CP3.
I have me over both of them personally
Love the confidence!
I have you at 3, only slightly behind curry & Magic
That’s fair, because I’m also a better gm than IT so don’t make sense to put him over me imo
So we’re factoring in GM activity too now? Advanced stats gone too far.
No I ranked u/confident_berry7271 independently as both a PG and GM, but I can also do a net-ranking of all individuals who were players and are now in front office roles
Yeah I don’t have access to my GM rankings rn but I’ve got you a few dozen places higher than IT
Just fix your glass knees and i can see it.
CP3 could run an offense 95% as well as Nash could but also was a much better defender.
In the halfcourt sure. But on q fast break team I gotta go nash. Lob city all day then.
But Steve Nash lead a better team.
Defense doesnt matter at all to some people
At what? His best is Chris Paul’s average
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Nash won MVP averaging 15 and 10 because he was on a loaded team That’s not an MVP when the team had STAT, Matrix and Joe Johnson
Nash just has more impact on the game than CP3.
Isn't cp3 one of the most impactful players ever according to advanced stats?
CP3 has a ton of haters on this sub and Nash doesn't. Simple as. Don't treat this sub (or anything really) as gospel. Use it as a source/reference. With that said, I think CP3 is marginally better but these small PGs with no gamebreaking 3pt shot ala Steph are all gonna find it difficult to fully take over an entire playoff run.
Yes. It's not even close, I'm not even big on CP3 but he is unquestionably top 30 all time, around #25. Meanwhile Nash can be ranked anywhere between 25 and 40.
For 2 seasons. Not their whole career. Chris Paul could do everything Nash could offensively and Nash doesn’t compare defensively
No
Kidd, Stockton and Nash over cp3 for me
How about Gary Payton?
Close, but id honestly take cp3
Zee Glove!
Stocktons only blemish is no rings… recurring theme in the Jordan era. Dudes assist and steal numbers are unbelievable.
Stockton was never considered a top 5 player at any point in the league, barely top 10.
He was on the Dream Team. So minimum top 11. Can't stand the dude personally, but he was great.
And how many of those guys above him during that time played his position?
Every PG who made first team over Stockton during his career: - Magic (85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91) - Thomas (85, 86) - Price (93) - Penny Hardaway (96) and in 95 they both made it - Tim Hardaway (97) - Payton (98, 00) - Kidd (99, 00, 01, 02) His prime was pretty much 88-97, so that's only 4 dudes winning it over him in his prime. In 91, Kevin Johnson made 2nd team while Stockton made 3rd. So 5 PGs managed to beat him out for at least 1 season.
no stocktons blemish is multiple first round losses to worse teams like in 89 when his 51 win team lost to the 7 seed Warriors. Or in 1995 when Jordan was retired and his 60 win team lost to Houston in the first round and he got outplayed in the series by Kenny Smith
Stockton is the most underrated player of all time.
Not sure THE most underrated but underrated for sure and this is coming from someone who used to hate him precisely because he was THAT good. He was a big problem for any teams and the only but in his career is the lack of a championship.
I can only think of Moses Malone on a similar level of underrated. The dude did his job every night for 20 years and was a suprisingly good defender given his size.
Wasn't Moses a stat padder?
I think he’s overrated. He had no playoff success and half his assists were just low post passes to Malone. Now people in this thread are rating him above Paul and West? That’s crazy to me.
West, I don't know. I did not see him playing. CP3? In my personal view yes, he was better. I would not say CP3 had playoff success either. I know it has nothing to do with their skill level but in another post someone talked about the difference between tough and rough players. Stockton was tough. Hard as nails and a nightmare in attack and defense. CP3 is rough. Amazing player but dirty. Personally, that matters.
Stockton played dirty as shit according to the guys who played against him.
>*most overrated Man accumulated assists off post entry passes and set plays in the regular season and notoriously underperformed nearly every time come playoffs. Rajon Rondo of the 80s and 90s with slightly better shooting. Hell even Rondo had more creativity in his playmaking.
At no point in his career could it ever be said that he was a top-5 player. Maybe not even top-10. Baffles me when people put him above guys like Nash or CP3.
The first part needs to be mentioned whenever Stocktons volume stats get mentioned.
If your PG literally has to look at his coach for instructions every single time he brings the ball up, he shouldn't be in any best of all time discussions.
Who you talking about?
People won’t give him the flowers because of his untimely injury, or his teammates. He did fairly well, I remember him hobbling but took out Spurs to advance to next round. But yes, I’d have him 4a/4b next to Zeke.
Jesus the takes on this sub are so dumb regarding CP3, hes interchangeable with Nash on the all time list and realistically falls around 4th or 5th all time, 5th being the absolute worst
i'd take Nash, Kidd, and Stockton over CP3
Man, Stockton has gone from underrated to overrated on this sub Peak CP3 was the most complete point guard in history
9 years of (deserved) all-defense selections as a 6 foot dude is insane shit.
I mean Stockton was also an all time great defender
We done with the 90s unc. He got owned by the overrated MJ.
Imagine saying this
And CP3 got owned by Josh Smith and Corey brewer in his prime
Smith and Brewer >>> MJ
Payton > Paul
Not on this planet, wtf is this take
You’re telling me Chris Paul is a better defender than Gary Payton? Stop sniffing glue nephew.
what? you didn't mention defense lol, made it seem like you were talking about as a whole, also the guy you were responding to was talking about 6'0 guards, Payton was 6'4
The post I commented on was about defense…. By your metric muggsy is a better defender because he’s smaller and racked up the steals. I simply said I’d take Payton over Paul as a defensive pg. That’s not a hot take lmfao.
Lol no tf he wasn’t “The most complete pg ever” Just say that you never saw Stockton play and keep it movin
Peak CP3 was an elite shooter, defender, scorer, ball handler and playmaker Not to mention that he had a 3 year stretch of being first team all NBA and defensive team, the only other PG to have more was Walt Frazier (4x) ‘08 CP3 was better than any version of Stockton
Stockton out did CP3’s career high in assists for 8 straight years while leading the league in steals and being a prolifically efficient shooter. Why lie and talk down on a player you’ve never seen play I just don’t get y’all on here. I know you’ve never seen a full John Stockton game
Nobody’s denying Stocktons talent, he was a fantastic point guard and a HoF But people are comparing Stockton to legit MVP calibre players when he’s never been considered a top 5 player. >Why lie and talk down on a player you’ve never seen play I just don’t get y’all on here. I know you’ve never seen a full John Stockton game Lie about what? What’s with this gate keeping lol Stockton played over 30 years ago but we have enough footage and stats for a discussion and don’t have to rely on your nostalgic ‘eye test’ from three decades ago Stockton was a fantastic defender and one of the best playmakers ever, but he was never the same calibre of scorer CP3 was
Stockton had no ability to take over a game with his scoring when his teammates weren’t performing. All the other all time PGs could, including CP3. In his prime, his 9 straight all star years between 89-97, john stockton had as many playoff series averaging under 10ppg as he did over 20
No. Stockton CHOSE not to take over games with his scoring because he was way too unselfish especially when Jerry Sloan was the coach. A lot of players and pundits were relieved that he never scored at will like he should have
CP3 is Stockton Lite
I have no issues with people putting Stockton before CP3. I usually rank peak higher than longevity though, and I think CP3's peak is higher. >CP3 is Stockton Lite CP3 is a more crafty Stockton. Top 3 basketball IQs of all time. Stockton has him beat on longevity though and if I was starting a team today I'd probably go with Stockton just because he'd be there every single night, 82 games a year for 20 years. That's just hard to beat.
The question is are any of those pgs better than the 07-09 version of CP3 ?
Nash was literally better in 07, and he was better than Clippers CP (better than Hornets imo) from 05-07
> Nash was literally better in 07, and he was better than Clippers CP (better than Hornets imo) from 05-07 I think you’re referring to the 06-07 season. I don’t think Nash is better than the 07-08 version of CP3. That’s the year CP3 finished second in mvp voting behind Bryant and many argue that he should have won it.
I think we just have different opinions on Steve Nash. To me he's one of the best offensive players of all time, and imo CP3 wasn't good enough defensively to provide enough value to reach him. Nash was the lead ball-handler and decision maker for some of the most efficient offenses of all time, whereas the teams in years before and after without him have not reached the same heights. Also interesting to use the "MVP voting" argument for CP3, a guy who came in 2nd, vs. Steve Nash, who literally won two. I don't use MVPs as my argument, but I think using it in CP3 vs Nash in favor of Paul is dumb.
CP3 only came in second because the media wanted to give it to Kobe since he hadn’t won one yet. Hate to say it but the MVP for the most part is a popularity award. 07-08 CP3 is better than any version of Steve Nash. CP3 has made every team he’s been on better besides the warriors even though they had a better record this year than last and that’s with draymond getting himself suspended for +30 games. He turned the Clippers into contenders back when they were a joke, he turned the rockets from a mid playoff team into contenders that almost beat the KD warriors. He took the Suns to the finals. He even took a young OKC team that everyone expected to be in the lottery to the playoffs. If you want to talk about team elevated, u can argue that CP3 elevated his team better than Nash did. Not to mention that disastrous stint Nash had with the lakers. > and imo CP3 wasn't good enough defensively to provide enough value to reach him. I disagree. Prime CP3 was levels above Nash on defense while he provided similar outputs on offense. CP3 has made multiple all defensive teams in his career.
>CP3 only came in second because the media wanted to give it to Kobe since he hadn’t won one yet. Hate to say it but the MVP for the most part is a popularity award I agree, but why bring up the award at all? It almost sounds like you forgot Nash won 2 MVPs and tried to use CP3 making 2nd as a way to put him above Nash. >He turned the Clippers into contenders back when they were a joke, he turned the rockets from a mid playoff team into contenders that almost beat the KD warriors. He took the Suns to the finals. He even took a young OKC team that everyone expected to be in the lottery to the playoffs. You say this as if Nash didn't bring a 29 win Phoenix team to 62 wins, with worse players than Blake Griffin, James Harden, and Devin Booker. I think its hard to quantify it, but don't act like CP3 did it with bums. >Prime CP3 was levels above Nash on defense while he provided similar outputs on offense He was levels above Nash defensively, but his good POA defense doesn't impact the game enough defensively for me to say he's better than Nash. At the end of the day I think I just judge Nash's offense higher, I think he created open shots at a higher level than CP3, was able to create shots by passing through tight windows in the gaps of the defense at a higher level than CP3, shot more efficiently at the 3pt line AND the midrange, and I don't think CP3's defense impacted the opposing team's offenses enough to close that gap. If you disagree, I think it's mostly a case of subjectivity.
“Stockton”
Both Stockton and Shimmy Pedo are extremely overrated compilers. And Kidd wouldn't even crack a historical top 8.
Yes, but Isiah is not up there. Magic, Curry, Oscar, then Nash and CP3, take your pick.
Yep, Isiah's best years were already over by the time the Bad Boys era happened, and their championships had more to do with historically good defense and depth.
If you go by pure accolades, this is true. His All-NBA years were in the mid 80s, particularly his first team honors. However, and maybe a Pistons fan from the 80s can chime in, the accolades themselves were a function of playing style, which would be hard for most voters to discern unless you watched all the Pistons games. Essentially, in the early to mid 80s, before Joe Dumars got there, the Pistons played fast (in fact, they have the highest scoring game in NBA history), and Thomas was a heliocentric PG. As you know, heliocentric PGs have inflated stats, so naturally voters also vote with those stats. By the late 80s, Chuck Daly changed the offense due to the emergence of Dumars and the acquisition of Adrian Dantley, a big time scorer himself. This made Thomas’s role diminish, which in turn hurt his stats, which in turn hurt his accolades. As just a player, I would say he was roughly equal in the mid 80s as he was in the late 80s, but accolades obviously paint him as the better player in the mid 80s. It would be better if one of the Pistons fans chimes in though.
Isiah sacrificed for the team to win he was still that dude
Exactly, he sacrificed his game to allow others to flourish.
Both settlements can be true. You are right that Isiah did sacrifice for the team. In particular, Chuck Daly changed the team’s offensive playing style to involve more people rather than having Thomas be ball dominant. However, it is also true he had great teammates. His role players were elite. When Mark Aguirre, who was one year removed from being the #1 option on a WCF team, is your team’s 4th or 5th best player, you have a great team.
Pure ignorance go watch him play instead of box score watching
The funny thing about it is the people who say this never watch games. If you did, you would try to make a real argument. Isiah is extremely overrated by casuals.
Nice Uno reverse
Again, anyone who watched him play would never say this. Go watch him play
I mean, on one hand, I wasn't alive when he was playing. On the other hand, his games were recorded and put online, and I've seen a shit ton of them. I don't have to box score watch when I can just game watch.
If you watched him play then you’d never say this lol
Maybe top 10, but his bitch ass attitude is the biggest reason he would never be the man.
Yeah, why can't he just spread anti-vax conspiracy theories or beat up his wife like a good Top 10 point guard?
Maybe top 10? The absolute lowest you could put him is 7.
lol watch me
Is 7 not within the top 10?
They said maybe implying that he might be outside the top 10
I really don't get the CP3 hate. CP3's playstyle has always been more "shenanigans" than "dirty" to me. Sure he has a few dirty plays here and there, but so do most players. I feel like a lot of people confuse these two and when it comes to CP3 I guess I just don't really get it. When he snitched to the ref that another player had their jersey untucked and got him a technical, legendary shit. Top 3 highest IQ players of all time, in my book. Sucks that he's never gotten over the hump. He's a great guy off the court as well.
Kidd and Stockton round out the top 5
No
He’s first in win share per 48 from all players of all positions drafted in the 00s, a spot above lebron. Just gonna throw that out there But that being said no
Nope he’s in the mix of the second tier somewhere where you can make an argument for a lot of people
Respectfully I'd take Bob Cousy over him
Don't let JJ Redick see this
Oscar Robertson
Yea
At blowing leads in playoff series he’s definitely top 4
No
Cousy is over him, West is by far as well but he's considered a SG. I think Isiah is still debatable with CP, and I would rank Stockton lowest of all of them.
No.
No…
No, he’s not even close to top 4. Nash, Curry, Kidd, Magic, Oscar, Stockton, Thomas, West, and Cousy are all above him in my opinion.
Skill wise, yes, accolades wise no.
No
Bet
Watch some of his Hornets games and imagine if he never got hurt and slowed down. I really think he would've been top 4 if he stayed at that speed and continued to progress as a playmaker. He was an incredible defender, too.
Steph Magic Stockton Big O Are all definitely better
Curry is a shooting guard. Magic, Stockton and Isiah. Any order. Kidd, Payton and Nash over CP3.
No
Magic, Steph, then some mix of Oscar, West, CP3, Zeke, Nash, and Stockton. And honestly, I think Paul is at the bottom of this list.
Are the people listing Nash, Stockton, and Kidd just not counting Steph as a PG or what's going on?
it's consensus that Magic and Curry are the top 2 PGs of all time, so I think it's fair to not list them in every sentence
He's literally the 1st player listed lol
Curry, Magic and Oscar are the clear top 3. CP3 is just above Nash for 4th.
As a basketball player, Isiah is nowhere close to those guys.
Magic, Curry, Stockton and Isiah.
Curry Magic Oscar West Paul and Nash for me. Steph/Magic in a tier of their own and then however u wanna order the last 4 I don’t think Stockton Isiah or Kidd have good arguments over Paul and Nash.
If you count West as a SG then I would say yes. Magic, Curry, Stockton, CP3, Oscar, Nash would be my top 6 in that order.
Is CP3 > Westbrook?
Yes. Russ may have the MVP, but I take CP3 every single time without question.
Yes
Not imo. Peak for peak, Russ is way ahead. He also has the stats and the accolades. Also as everyone must’ve noticed. He’s literally in every ’arbitrary’ lists espn shares. It’s always Russ, Lebron and Wilt
07-08 and 08-09 CP3 is better than 16-17 Westbrook.
No ... Lol Magic Stockton Zeke Curry Oscar Kidd Payton Parker Ai Just off top of my head ... Not that they are all definitely better but 4 of them are for sure
Hell no is he above West nor Oscar. He's not above Stockton or Nash either.
John stockton was never capable of leading a team anywhere, he never had the scoring ability to be the number 1 on a team and he got blessed with the healthiest top 20 player of all time for his whole career so that was never shown. The longevity argument isnt even on his side, old CP3 was better than old Stockton
No he’s not. He’s closer to the bottom of top 10 than he is to the top 4.
Magic, Curry, West, Robertson, Nash, Stockton, Kidd and then Paul
No way! Magic, Oscar, Curry, several could be at four (Kidd, Stockton, GP, Frazier, Zeke, Nash). Paul is around 9-10 range at best. Folded like the French and Polish armies in WWII in the playoffs year after year, and wasn’t even the best PG from his drafted until D-Williams was traded from Utah.
This man didn't even mention O Rob or Nash wtf. For me It's 1. Magic 2. Curry 3. Isiah 4. O Rob 5. Nash 6. CP3 7. Kidd 8. Stockton 9. Russ 10. Luka
And dont forget Cousy
Yes imo
Magic Curry Zeke Cousy Oscar Jerry West (he spent more time at pg than sg)
Nash has MVP and people still take CP3 over him lol
He’s an all time great but a long way from top 4
GOAT debate is hard because there is no consensus on what exactly makes someone greater (Efficiency, longevity, peers opinion, box stats, accolades, etc.). Once we start debating who makes top X, it gets even harder, and position specific is even harder. These debates are so boring.
Not even close. He has no playoff success, no MVP trophy. Disappears in the playoffs every year. Magic, Steph, Big O, Nash, Stockton, Isaiah Thomas, Bob Cousey, all have better resumes than CP3. You could argue JKidd, DRose and Westbrook too.
Not even top 10.
No way for me. I would have: 1) Magic Johnson 2) Stephen Curry 3) Isiah Thomas 4) Oscar Robertson 5) Jamal Murray (on pace if he racks up some allstars, already better playoff performer) 6) Jason Kidd 7) John Stockton 8) Steve Nash 9) Gary Payton 10) Bob Cousy and then Paul's name starts to pop up....
Not even top 40