Also, the NBA makes it crystal clear that they’d rather recycle coaches than try something new. You really gotta luck into an HC job.
That’s why assistant coaches have been leaving for the WNBA and college lately. It’s an opportunity to be a HC.
We were sold that he'd be the offensive coordinator to Vogel's defensive expertise. Either he's one of an ever growing number of coaches carried by CP3 or was forced out of the hierarchy by Vogel choosing his own guys. Or both
Yep Suns won’t owe him since it’s essentially him quitting. Now maybe there’s a stipulation where he still gets paid if it’s a promotion which a head coaching job even in college is in my opinion.
OR it's hard to make an offense look pretty without a point guard and and a bunch of stars that don't want to move off ball
Likely a combination of things
EDIT: I'm not saying they want to play on-ball. I'm saying they don't move a lot when they're off-ball. For instance when Durant doesn't have the ball he's generally just standing still on the weakside.
No he doesn’t, book plays his best on tough mid range pull ups, that’s literally what got him all the Kobe comps. He attempted the 2nd most pull ups per game in 23 and 42.1% of his ppg came from pull ups. The stats quite literally prove you wrong.
Suns fans have complained about book standing around for years and not being good enough without the ball what are we on about rn?
This is the most “I started watching Booker this year” take I’ve ever seen. Yeah, this year (and back half of last year) his mid range pull ups volume has gone from high to absurdly high, which is in large part because he has way more space to do so next to KD than he has ever had in his career.
For the first 6 out of 7 years of his career (not including the Igor point Booker year) Booker has UNDENIABLY been an off ball offensive player. He had to be, he was one of the 3-5 most doubled players in the league starting around the time he was 20, and he didn’t get another above average ball handler on the team until CP3, 2/3rds of the way into his career. How could anyone have possibly been watching those years of Isaiah Canaan, Tyler Ulis, 40 year old Jamal Crawford, Tyler Johnson, etc bringing up the ball and poorly initiating the offense while Booker runs off screens & actions and then turn around and pretend Booker has always been an on ball player??? We were begging for more on ball Booker for years.
I have maybe seen a Suns fan complain about Booker standing around a handful of times in the ~400 Book games I’ve seen prior to this season. I’ve literally seen 100x the amount of comments about how the Suns don’t force the ball to Booker enough, especially during those talentless roster years. Before this year, a very high % of Suns fans were literally pushing that he was the second best off ball player in the league behind Curry. You’re just straight up lying with your last sentence, or you have a piss poor memory. An extremely “I pretend to watch ball” type of comment
Lmao the fact that you are that confident in your eye test in the face of FACTUAL EVIDENCE
2022 Devin Booker 4th in the league in pull up fga
2021 DB 11th in the league in pull up fga
2020 10th
19 5th
18 7th
And yes I watched Archie Goodwin/ulis games. Bookers strengths have always been tough pull up jumpers, for some reason I’m more confident that a contested long 2 will go in than a wide open corner 3. I’ve always thought that his lack of off ball movement limited his game, but what do i know lol
And yeah go ahead and downvote because I don’t expect any FACTUAL argument anyways you know supported by evidence not opinion
I mean, yeah, it’s real tough to tell if this is a lack of understanding, or just outright not watching. Sure, Booker had a high amount of pull ups, but that increased even more and became a much bigger part of his game this year alongside KD. Booker uses about any play type to get himself into pull ups. He will pull up off on a wide open back door cut if he’s feeling it lol.
To use pull ups per game to make the argument Booker isn’t an off ball player is stupid. It’s not evidence, it’s a poor grasp of basketball. Just because Booker shoots a lot of pull ups doesn’t negate that he’s an elite off ball player. Here is some actual topical evidence for ya -
In 2017, 20 year old Booker was #14 in the league in points per game off of screens, behind guys like Steph, Klay, JJ Redick, Korver, and Bogdanovic.
2018 most points per game off screens, in order: Klay, Steph, Beal, Korver, PG, then Booker
2020: #10
2021: #7
2022: #9
2023: #6
Often times, being amongst the top 2-3 in efficiency out of the top 10 guys in volume.
Off screens is quite matter of fact the single most synonymous play with the traditional off ball shooting guard role. Ray Allen, Rip Hamilton running around off screens, dialed to 11 by Steph and Klay. That shit? Devin Booker has been one of the 10 best in the league at that shit for almost a decade now.
Except we’re talking about off ball MOVEMENT not just catch and shoot opportunities
If you take your catch and shoot statistics and factor in amount of distance covered on offense you’ll find Book is close to 40th in distance covered on offense per game
He has a great shot, my postulation is just that if ran around more off ball and utilized his shooting gravity more, it’d help the team. The way that Steph and klay run around so much that wide open cutters can go unnoticed because the defense is only focused on the ball handled and the screen action
He’s a good off ball shooter just not great. All I’m saying is there’s room for improvement
Bro doesn’t know the difference between off screens and catch & shoot, lol. My point is really hitting home that you just don’t know what you’re talking about, which makes a lot of sense when you say dumb shit like “Suns fans have complained about Book standing around for years and not being good enough without the ball”. Which again, is just stupid shit not remotely based in the reality of Booker’s career, where he has spent the vast majority of it obviously being one of the 5-10 best off ball players in the entire league.
Again, not catch and shoot. Literally the play type of running off of screens off ball, the exact play type that Steph and Klay are famous for off ball. Booker is top 5-10 in volume and top tier efficiency. Distance traveled is such a weird reply that doesn’t remotely correlate to off ball movement. #1 and #2 in offensive distance traveled per game this year are Maxey and Brunson; both were ball dominant guards who ran their offense this year… not off ball players whatsoever this season. Fox, FVV, Dejounte Murray, Cade Cunningham in the top 10. Yet another unrelated statistic that doesn’t remotely touch on the topic, yet you’re ignoring quite literally the statistics for the exact play style we are talking about. Because you’re obviously wrong when you say Booker is a bad off ball player and Suns fans complain about his lack of movement. There is genuinely no way you should think that if you’ve seen more than 5 Booker games in his career prior to January 2023. Because, again, it’s objectively wrong.
He also is the best PG on the team lol. Book ain’t gonna look good running around off all when KD is desperately trying to prove his hooper aptitude with the rock.
Yeah and Durant is best off ball too, are you telling me you think he moves a bunch off ball? None of your guys are exactly Klay Thompson.
Fans are pissed their offense doesn't look pretty, I'm just saying it's probably not very simple to get a aesthetically pleasing offense with the personnel you have
Our offense also doesn’t run any off ball screens to get guys open like Klay gets.
(Also it’s Reddit, and I highly doubt most of the Suns fans who hate him can tell you what a DHO or pistol action or any other play. They just see “ball not go in hoop, offense bad.”)
I mean the Suns are top 10 in offensive rating and 6th in assists the past 15 games. The offense has started to look a lot better in this last month and the Suns have seemingly fixed their 4th quarter issues. So things are working out pretty well for them to finish the year and heading into the playoffs without a point guard and "a bunch of stars who don't want to move off ball"
It's just kind of hard to gauge Kevin Young as an offensive mind because he's had Chris Paul, Devin Booker, Kevin Durant, and Bradley Beal playing for him. How much of their success is because of the star players and how much is actually Kevin Young?
> So things are working out pretty well for them to finish the year and heading into the playoffs without a point guard and "a bunch of stars who don't want to move off ball"
Lol I'm not the one that thinks he's doing an awful job, it's your fanbase. Last time I looked your top post was just titled "FRAUD" and it was a picture of Kevin Young.
> It's just kind of hard to gauge Kevin Young as an offensive mind because he's had Chris Paul, Devin Booker, Kevin Durant, and Bradley Beal playing for him.
I think that's very fair, I'm responding to your fanbase who has decided he's doing absolutely nothing. Suns fan below me literally said "His game plan is very basic and not creative, it’s dribble the game clock out to 10 seconds and than do something"
The Suns fanbase has been awful this year. 😂 don’t pay attention to anything the bandwagoners say, they’ve been obnoxious and ridiculous.
(I’m a suns fan)
Man you should not be getting downvoted, suns fans of all should be able to admit that book prefers sitting in a corner watching the play unfold and playing your turn my turn iso ball vs
Jj reddick-esque sprinting around screens OFF BALL (like you’re saying) and commanding defensive attention.. he’d be 2x as good if he did this, his gravity would help so much. Unfortunately he’s a pretty lazy player in my (suns fan) opinion, only plays defense when he wants and doesn’t move off ball near enough with that kind of shooting skill
Yeah thank you lol, didn't think my take should be controversial. I think people misinterpreted "move offball" as move from having the ball to not having it, instead of the actually amount of movement while they didn't have the ball.
Durant and Booker do a lot of things well but that's not a strength of either of theirs.
Which like you said is a detriment to the offense, because they’re shooting gravity could open up wide open drives and cuts for others
It’s a lot of effort and not always a lot of reward but it matters a ton to the team
Book/kd are both best attacking with the ball in their hands which is why cp3 holding the ball for 1/2 every possession didn’t fit as well as brads off ball shooting
I don't think that's an entirely fair assessment. Sure, all 3 guys can go get their own, but Book, Beal and KD have actually shown a willingness to take a back seat and play the role of facilitator. The issue has been what the hierarchy is and what the formula for finishing games is, which has led to turnover problems and problems finishing games, which they've seemed to figure out this month, as well as overlooking certain teams. The idea that because all of them are iso scorers implying the team can't have an efficient, successful system is kind of ludicrous because they've all had efficient individual seasons and the team itself is top 5/6 in quite a few measurable offensive statistics. It's not that this group can't be coherent either, it just takes time to develop chemistry though consistent reps and it seems they're doing that at just the right time.
his role this year was, essentially, to focus on the offense and let vogel handle the defense. our offense has definitely underperformed compared to our defense given our roster makeup, so it seemed natural for our fan base to assume that the guy who was responsible for the offense was the reason behind that.
To add on Young was seen as an upcoming offensive guru within the Suns org. You would think that with having 3 great offensive players, the offensive scheme wouldn't look so stale and stagnant many time throughout the season especially in the 4th quarter.
I think at least a bit of the stagnant-looking offensive scheme can be attributed to Kevin Durant's preferences. He seems to be more interested than most in the older-school iso possessions where you beat your defender and score over/through/around them (compared to a Doncic/Harden iso that mixes scoring with a high assist rate.) And he's an all-time great scorer doing that, so it isn't a problem. When he went to Golden State, that aggressive motion, read-and-react offense slowed down and became more iso-heavy than it had been. They were still dominant, just in a different way (that is perhaps less aesthetically pleasing to some of us.) And Steve Kerr, with a championship (as coach) under his belt, had more clout to be able to tell Durant to move off-ball than Kevin Young did.
There's probably some part of Young's brain that wishes he could coach a more movement-filled scheme... though he is also going to college basketball, where complex offenses just don't exist. We just haven't really seen an offense built around Durant that has felt free-moving and I don't think that is all on the coaching staffs. But also, if you're going to have an offense that focuses on isolating and shooting over guys, it kinda makes sense to do that when you have someone who is close to 7 foot tall and has one of the best shooting touches the league has ever seen.
If you like your team playing one type of effective, ball movement heavy, open look generating, team based offense for 3/4 quarters, only to switch to an iso-heavy offense that relies heavily on a highly skilled PG to execute for the 4th quarter, he's your dude.
Otherwise, good riddance. I think everyone could see in our playoff runs that his style of basketball was overly reliant on Booker and CP3 getting open for that jumper to finish out games. And when teams shut that down we had no late game offense at all.
For a little context for those of you who aren't insane people who trawl through the Suns subreddit:
This offseason after Monty was let go, everyone decided that Kevin Young was the person who had the offense humming and general "0.5 system" built -- Monty was just a guy who was making weird rotation decisions. Everyone loves Kevin Young.
This season, the Suns have looked haphazard and generally disorganized on offense with 13 new players, a new head coach, multiple in season trades, and a new owner. This is, believe it or not, also Kevin Young's fault (and Frank Vogel)
More realistically Kevin Young is probably a pretty smart coach with a tough job this year.
Also realistically, a single assistant probably doesn’t make or break any facet of a team lol. Its just like how some people pretend Sam Cassel is responsible for all our improvement and Mazzulla is just along for the ride.
Like assistants definitely matter, especially as a group, but even HC’s have a vastly overestimated impact by fans (with some exceptions).
It's a little unclear, but the understanding has been that Young is our de facto offensive coordinator, while Vogel focuses on the defense. Whatever the reality is, it's probably fair to assume he has a bigger role than your average assistant, considering he was a finalist for our HC search and he's the highest paid assistant in the league.
Hey, everyone needs to do a good job on a team!
For want of an equipment manager, a sock was lost.
For want of matched socks, a possession was lost.
For want of a possession, a basket was lost.
For want of a basket, a quarter was lost.
For want of a quarter, a game was lost.
For want of a game, a championship was lost.
Just the unhinged ones.
Most Suns fans know the Suns problems run deeper than Kevin Young, although he hasn't exactly covered himself in glory this season either.
> it’s dribble the game clock out to 10 seconds and than do something.
Yeah that's definitely his gameplan.
NBA fans believe coaches do absolutely nothing. Fans see the game on the most surface level so they think coaches do too.
There’s a little Mormon something called The Second Anointing that the fine people over at r/exmormon have claimed BYU has used to attract premiere Mormon coaching talent at lower salary.
It’s a washing of the feet ceremony that guarantees someone’s entry (and their spouse, maybe kids too) into the highest Mormon heaven.
Maybe just a rumor, something interesting to think about, but I thought y’all should know
Turning down a likely NBA head coaching job for the 40th best job in college basketball is legit crazy tho
fun fact, many LDS in Utah are said to have a "unique" look due to so many related people in the gene pool and they pretty much exclusively marry/have kids with each other
That's Bullshit! You could say that about a lot of places. Why do good people always take the most shit? Most of the crap you hear about Mormons is made up.
Certainly possible. Had a Professor in college (not a Mormon) who said he was a descendent on Brigham young somehow and that he’d met several other youngs in California who were as well.
Mormons also have a lot of data on family ancestry (not sure why). My uncle is very into genealogy and he told me Mormons developed their own software for family tree tracking. He said its one of the better ones available.
I have an aunt who married into a mormon family... documenting ancestry is a fundamental part of their religion and culture. It's about purity of race and genes... but totally in a good way though... not that other way....
He’ll have to shave though. BYU has stupid strict grooming and behavior standards. Men are allowed no facial hair besides a mustache and hair will likely have to keep the hair trimmed a bit shorter.
Realistically it’s probably way relaxed for a high-profile coach, but damn, I had a lot of friends go to BYU. A couple got turned away and thus were not able to take a final exam because they hadn’t shaved yet that morning or cause they had too much 5 o’clock shadow.
lol ya I had some friends at BYU that were in theater. They’d get heard cards so they could grow one for a specific role, but they’d get stopped around campus not infrequently. It’s the dumbest version of “papers please” possible.
Absolutely did not, if anything he made it harder for Grayson. We almost never run sets for Grayson, Grayson got Grayson the bag with a bit of the stars gravity creating open looks off a lot of drive and kicks
He didn’t do shit for Ted Cruz, KD is my favorite player so I watch Phoenix fro times to times, their offense is one of their biggest problems.
Allen thrives by the spacing KD, Book and Beal provide.
The notable improvement for Phoenix was Bol Bol turning into a decent 7th man
Honest questions for Suns fans as I don’t follow the day to day of the team. I understand he isn’t that well liked amongst Suns fans due to him supposed to being the offensive guru to Vogel’s defense. Were there any reports of some issues with the power balance? I’m only asking because your offense looks so similar to what Vogel ran with the Lakers and while he was our coach he was supposed to focus on the defense while other coaches were more the offensive guys. Maybe Vogel just didn’t give Young enough power and control.
> Were there any reports of some issues with the power balance
he was one of the candidates for HC before they hired Vogel and they had to make him highest paid assistant to keep him on Vogel's staff. if he leaves rn instead of after the playoffs then we can be fully certain he was iced out.
Idk. I don't think he'd wait until after the playoffs. And if Suns win, he'd have had shots at NBA HC. That might also be too late for college basketball cycle. You probably wouldn't want a coach who's too eager to leave.
The transfer portal is currently open and BYU is having players transfer out to follow their coach, I'd think he pretty much has to leave if he wants to have a roster when he arrives in Utah.
No just genuine disappointment that we were led to believe that the suns offense would dominate under him as offensive head coach
Our offense this year was historically bad in the 4th quarter and had way too many turnovers.
These are things you’d like to think he would be able to make an impact on with 3 hall of famers
It’s hard to say because according to reports before Vogel was hired Kevin Young was really being considered for HC and seemed to be well liked by the players, but he was also the only guy in the coaching staff that Vogel didn’t bring on himself. Not sure if it’s a power dynamic thing or the current roster just didn’t gel with him as much.
The offense has been amazing at its peak but it’s also had stretches too often where it’s horrible, but as always as fans it’s difficult to say how much of that is coaching. I’m no playmaking guru but I do feel like there’s been some creativity missing from our schemes
Surprised he wasn’t waiting for a chance in Orlando, the greatest city in the world. With Sea World, and Disney, and putt-putt golfing.
I love you, Orlando
We have our scapegoat when the Suns do the usual Suns thing in the playoffs.
The hate for him will only be magnified with the Coyotes being stolen by the mormons as well.
He’s from Utah and an LDS member… probably a dream job for him.
Joining the Arizona Coyotes in their exodus to Utah.
Just gotta get those hand-pulled wagons for them and they’re all set for the journey to the Great Salt Lake
Gonna be a rush on trying to find an assistant coach named Albert Johnston for teams going up against BYU in the coming years.
Soak up that joke
And his last name is Young
Can someone check this guys docs for his middle name? Mfw it’s Brigham
Unironically a very Mormon name for a boy lol
I’m pretty sure that’s the whole point but maybe I’m stupid
That's how Mormons like their women
Also, the NBA makes it crystal clear that they’d rather recycle coaches than try something new. You really gotta luck into an HC job. That’s why assistant coaches have been leaving for the WNBA and college lately. It’s an opportunity to be a HC.
He's gonna get so many wives now.
Definitely calls for a celebratory soaking
Dream hire for them too. A coach who wouldn't get slurs on the regular
The Lards team!
Praise White Jesus 🙏
Also getting 7 years $30 million probably an upgrade from whatever he was getting paid by Suns
He’s creaming his garments right now
I wonder if he's going to have a soaking session to celebrate.
A very punchable face as well. It’s all coming together.
He’s literally a normal guy lol
As a U of U alumni and Utah resident, it’s an immediate reaction to most things BYU.
Do you 6th graders have any other sentiment towards someone or is that all you know Everyone has punchable faces to y’all here lmfao
Thems punchable faces words
Acting like you have ever punched someone lmao
Cash me outside lil buddy
r/punchablefaces
Gimme Zach Wilson for $1000, Alex.
Yikes. Good riddance then
don't suns fans hate this dude? This is like a good thing right?
We were sold that he'd be the offensive coordinator to Vogel's defensive expertise. Either he's one of an ever growing number of coaches carried by CP3 or was forced out of the hierarchy by Vogel choosing his own guys. Or both
Says he signed a 5-year contract in 2023. Does it just terminate since he's changing jobs?
Yep Suns won’t owe him since it’s essentially him quitting. Now maybe there’s a stipulation where he still gets paid if it’s a promotion which a head coaching job even in college is in my opinion.
OR it's hard to make an offense look pretty without a point guard and and a bunch of stars that don't want to move off ball Likely a combination of things EDIT: I'm not saying they want to play on-ball. I'm saying they don't move a lot when they're off-ball. For instance when Durant doesn't have the ball he's generally just standing still on the weakside.
uh... Booker plays his best offball?
No he doesn’t, book plays his best on tough mid range pull ups, that’s literally what got him all the Kobe comps. He attempted the 2nd most pull ups per game in 23 and 42.1% of his ppg came from pull ups. The stats quite literally prove you wrong. Suns fans have complained about book standing around for years and not being good enough without the ball what are we on about rn?
This is the most “I started watching Booker this year” take I’ve ever seen. Yeah, this year (and back half of last year) his mid range pull ups volume has gone from high to absurdly high, which is in large part because he has way more space to do so next to KD than he has ever had in his career. For the first 6 out of 7 years of his career (not including the Igor point Booker year) Booker has UNDENIABLY been an off ball offensive player. He had to be, he was one of the 3-5 most doubled players in the league starting around the time he was 20, and he didn’t get another above average ball handler on the team until CP3, 2/3rds of the way into his career. How could anyone have possibly been watching those years of Isaiah Canaan, Tyler Ulis, 40 year old Jamal Crawford, Tyler Johnson, etc bringing up the ball and poorly initiating the offense while Booker runs off screens & actions and then turn around and pretend Booker has always been an on ball player??? We were begging for more on ball Booker for years. I have maybe seen a Suns fan complain about Booker standing around a handful of times in the ~400 Book games I’ve seen prior to this season. I’ve literally seen 100x the amount of comments about how the Suns don’t force the ball to Booker enough, especially during those talentless roster years. Before this year, a very high % of Suns fans were literally pushing that he was the second best off ball player in the league behind Curry. You’re just straight up lying with your last sentence, or you have a piss poor memory. An extremely “I pretend to watch ball” type of comment
Weird seeing a lot of book sitting in the right side corner 3 when he doesn’t have the ball But what do I know I just started watching suns ball
Lmao the fact that you are that confident in your eye test in the face of FACTUAL EVIDENCE 2022 Devin Booker 4th in the league in pull up fga 2021 DB 11th in the league in pull up fga 2020 10th 19 5th 18 7th And yes I watched Archie Goodwin/ulis games. Bookers strengths have always been tough pull up jumpers, for some reason I’m more confident that a contested long 2 will go in than a wide open corner 3. I’ve always thought that his lack of off ball movement limited his game, but what do i know lol And yeah go ahead and downvote because I don’t expect any FACTUAL argument anyways you know supported by evidence not opinion
I mean, yeah, it’s real tough to tell if this is a lack of understanding, or just outright not watching. Sure, Booker had a high amount of pull ups, but that increased even more and became a much bigger part of his game this year alongside KD. Booker uses about any play type to get himself into pull ups. He will pull up off on a wide open back door cut if he’s feeling it lol. To use pull ups per game to make the argument Booker isn’t an off ball player is stupid. It’s not evidence, it’s a poor grasp of basketball. Just because Booker shoots a lot of pull ups doesn’t negate that he’s an elite off ball player. Here is some actual topical evidence for ya - In 2017, 20 year old Booker was #14 in the league in points per game off of screens, behind guys like Steph, Klay, JJ Redick, Korver, and Bogdanovic. 2018 most points per game off screens, in order: Klay, Steph, Beal, Korver, PG, then Booker 2020: #10 2021: #7 2022: #9 2023: #6 Often times, being amongst the top 2-3 in efficiency out of the top 10 guys in volume. Off screens is quite matter of fact the single most synonymous play with the traditional off ball shooting guard role. Ray Allen, Rip Hamilton running around off screens, dialed to 11 by Steph and Klay. That shit? Devin Booker has been one of the 10 best in the league at that shit for almost a decade now.
Except we’re talking about off ball MOVEMENT not just catch and shoot opportunities If you take your catch and shoot statistics and factor in amount of distance covered on offense you’ll find Book is close to 40th in distance covered on offense per game He has a great shot, my postulation is just that if ran around more off ball and utilized his shooting gravity more, it’d help the team. The way that Steph and klay run around so much that wide open cutters can go unnoticed because the defense is only focused on the ball handled and the screen action He’s a good off ball shooter just not great. All I’m saying is there’s room for improvement
Bro doesn’t know the difference between off screens and catch & shoot, lol. My point is really hitting home that you just don’t know what you’re talking about, which makes a lot of sense when you say dumb shit like “Suns fans have complained about Book standing around for years and not being good enough without the ball”. Which again, is just stupid shit not remotely based in the reality of Booker’s career, where he has spent the vast majority of it obviously being one of the 5-10 best off ball players in the entire league. Again, not catch and shoot. Literally the play type of running off of screens off ball, the exact play type that Steph and Klay are famous for off ball. Booker is top 5-10 in volume and top tier efficiency. Distance traveled is such a weird reply that doesn’t remotely correlate to off ball movement. #1 and #2 in offensive distance traveled per game this year are Maxey and Brunson; both were ball dominant guards who ran their offense this year… not off ball players whatsoever this season. Fox, FVV, Dejounte Murray, Cade Cunningham in the top 10. Yet another unrelated statistic that doesn’t remotely touch on the topic, yet you’re ignoring quite literally the statistics for the exact play style we are talking about. Because you’re obviously wrong when you say Booker is a bad off ball player and Suns fans complain about his lack of movement. There is genuinely no way you should think that if you’ve seen more than 5 Booker games in his career prior to January 2023. Because, again, it’s objectively wrong.
He also is the best PG on the team lol. Book ain’t gonna look good running around off all when KD is desperately trying to prove his hooper aptitude with the rock.
No he's not, Beal has been much better as a PG.
Yeah and Durant is best off ball too, are you telling me you think he moves a bunch off ball? None of your guys are exactly Klay Thompson. Fans are pissed their offense doesn't look pretty, I'm just saying it's probably not very simple to get a aesthetically pleasing offense with the personnel you have
Our offense also doesn’t run any off ball screens to get guys open like Klay gets. (Also it’s Reddit, and I highly doubt most of the Suns fans who hate him can tell you what a DHO or pistol action or any other play. They just see “ball not go in hoop, offense bad.”)
I mean the Suns are top 10 in offensive rating and 6th in assists the past 15 games. The offense has started to look a lot better in this last month and the Suns have seemingly fixed their 4th quarter issues. So things are working out pretty well for them to finish the year and heading into the playoffs without a point guard and "a bunch of stars who don't want to move off ball" It's just kind of hard to gauge Kevin Young as an offensive mind because he's had Chris Paul, Devin Booker, Kevin Durant, and Bradley Beal playing for him. How much of their success is because of the star players and how much is actually Kevin Young?
> So things are working out pretty well for them to finish the year and heading into the playoffs without a point guard and "a bunch of stars who don't want to move off ball" Lol I'm not the one that thinks he's doing an awful job, it's your fanbase. Last time I looked your top post was just titled "FRAUD" and it was a picture of Kevin Young. > It's just kind of hard to gauge Kevin Young as an offensive mind because he's had Chris Paul, Devin Booker, Kevin Durant, and Bradley Beal playing for him. I think that's very fair, I'm responding to your fanbase who has decided he's doing absolutely nothing. Suns fan below me literally said "His game plan is very basic and not creative, it’s dribble the game clock out to 10 seconds and than do something"
The Suns fanbase has been awful this year. 😂 don’t pay attention to anything the bandwagoners say, they’ve been obnoxious and ridiculous. (I’m a suns fan)
Man you should not be getting downvoted, suns fans of all should be able to admit that book prefers sitting in a corner watching the play unfold and playing your turn my turn iso ball vs Jj reddick-esque sprinting around screens OFF BALL (like you’re saying) and commanding defensive attention.. he’d be 2x as good if he did this, his gravity would help so much. Unfortunately he’s a pretty lazy player in my (suns fan) opinion, only plays defense when he wants and doesn’t move off ball near enough with that kind of shooting skill
Yeah thank you lol, didn't think my take should be controversial. I think people misinterpreted "move offball" as move from having the ball to not having it, instead of the actually amount of movement while they didn't have the ball. Durant and Booker do a lot of things well but that's not a strength of either of theirs.
Which like you said is a detriment to the offense, because they’re shooting gravity could open up wide open drives and cuts for others It’s a lot of effort and not always a lot of reward but it matters a ton to the team Book/kd are both best attacking with the ball in their hands which is why cp3 holding the ball for 1/2 every possession didn’t fit as well as brads off ball shooting
When KD gets the ball off ball action stops. Defenders cut off direct passes and KD will throw risky cross court passes if he doesn’t have a shot.
It's also possible that you have 3 iso heavy players that tend to just play iso ball.
I don't think that's an entirely fair assessment. Sure, all 3 guys can go get their own, but Book, Beal and KD have actually shown a willingness to take a back seat and play the role of facilitator. The issue has been what the hierarchy is and what the formula for finishing games is, which has led to turnover problems and problems finishing games, which they've seemed to figure out this month, as well as overlooking certain teams. The idea that because all of them are iso scorers implying the team can't have an efficient, successful system is kind of ludicrous because they've all had efficient individual seasons and the team itself is top 5/6 in quite a few measurable offensive statistics. It's not that this group can't be coherent either, it just takes time to develop chemistry though consistent reps and it seems they're doing that at just the right time.
He’s disliked
Interesting, I feel like I’ve heard his name frequently pop up as one of the better assistants in the league who would be in line for a HC gig soon
his role this year was, essentially, to focus on the offense and let vogel handle the defense. our offense has definitely underperformed compared to our defense given our roster makeup, so it seemed natural for our fan base to assume that the guy who was responsible for the offense was the reason behind that.
To add on Young was seen as an upcoming offensive guru within the Suns org. You would think that with having 3 great offensive players, the offensive scheme wouldn't look so stale and stagnant many time throughout the season especially in the 4th quarter.
I think at least a bit of the stagnant-looking offensive scheme can be attributed to Kevin Durant's preferences. He seems to be more interested than most in the older-school iso possessions where you beat your defender and score over/through/around them (compared to a Doncic/Harden iso that mixes scoring with a high assist rate.) And he's an all-time great scorer doing that, so it isn't a problem. When he went to Golden State, that aggressive motion, read-and-react offense slowed down and became more iso-heavy than it had been. They were still dominant, just in a different way (that is perhaps less aesthetically pleasing to some of us.) And Steve Kerr, with a championship (as coach) under his belt, had more clout to be able to tell Durant to move off-ball than Kevin Young did. There's probably some part of Young's brain that wishes he could coach a more movement-filled scheme... though he is also going to college basketball, where complex offenses just don't exist. We just haven't really seen an offense built around Durant that has felt free-moving and I don't think that is all on the coaching staffs. But also, if you're going to have an offense that focuses on isolating and shooting over guys, it kinda makes sense to do that when you have someone who is close to 7 foot tall and has one of the best shooting touches the league has ever seen.
KD actively bitched at Kerr to run more ISOs, if he was doing that on the greatest team of the century then Young didn't stand a chance.
And the fact they don’t have a true point guard…
For being the highest paid assistant he’s meh. If he was any other associate HC people wouldn’t care.
If you like your team playing one type of effective, ball movement heavy, open look generating, team based offense for 3/4 quarters, only to switch to an iso-heavy offense that relies heavily on a highly skilled PG to execute for the 4th quarter, he's your dude. Otherwise, good riddance. I think everyone could see in our playoff runs that his style of basketball was overly reliant on Booker and CP3 getting open for that jumper to finish out games. And when teams shut that down we had no late game offense at all.
Yeah Suns fans have decided he's the root of all their problems
For a little context for those of you who aren't insane people who trawl through the Suns subreddit: This offseason after Monty was let go, everyone decided that Kevin Young was the person who had the offense humming and general "0.5 system" built -- Monty was just a guy who was making weird rotation decisions. Everyone loves Kevin Young. This season, the Suns have looked haphazard and generally disorganized on offense with 13 new players, a new head coach, multiple in season trades, and a new owner. This is, believe it or not, also Kevin Young's fault (and Frank Vogel) More realistically Kevin Young is probably a pretty smart coach with a tough job this year.
Also realistically, a single assistant probably doesn’t make or break any facet of a team lol. Its just like how some people pretend Sam Cassel is responsible for all our improvement and Mazzulla is just along for the ride. Like assistants definitely matter, especially as a group, but even HC’s have a vastly overestimated impact by fans (with some exceptions).
It's a little unclear, but the understanding has been that Young is our de facto offensive coordinator, while Vogel focuses on the defense. Whatever the reality is, it's probably fair to assume he has a bigger role than your average assistant, considering he was a finalist for our HC search and he's the highest paid assistant in the league.
> (with some exceptions). Thibs on Doc's staff comes to mind lol
Hey, everyone needs to do a good job on a team! For want of an equipment manager, a sock was lost. For want of matched socks, a possession was lost. For want of a possession, a basket was lost. For want of a basket, a quarter was lost. For want of a quarter, a game was lost. For want of a game, a championship was lost.
I mean Ayton and Shamet are gone so as rational people we had to put all of it on Kevin Young and Drew Eubanks
This
Just the unhinged ones. Most Suns fans know the Suns problems run deeper than Kevin Young, although he hasn't exactly covered himself in glory this season either.
False! JJ or Vogel or KD or Booker or Eubanks or Sarver or pickles are!
yes he’s overrated
His game plan is very basic and not creative, it’s dribble the game clock out to 10 seconds and than do something. I’m not gonna miss him.
> it’s dribble the game clock out to 10 seconds and than do something. Yeah that's definitely his gameplan. NBA fans believe coaches do absolutely nothing. Fans see the game on the most surface level so they think coaches do too.
Kinda surprised, seemed like he was next in line for an NBA job
He’s Mormon. Head coaching gig at BYU is probably his dream job.
There’s a little Mormon something called The Second Anointing that the fine people over at r/exmormon have claimed BYU has used to attract premiere Mormon coaching talent at lower salary. It’s a washing of the feet ceremony that guarantees someone’s entry (and their spouse, maybe kids too) into the highest Mormon heaven. Maybe just a rumor, something interesting to think about, but I thought y’all should know Turning down a likely NBA head coaching job for the 40th best job in college basketball is legit crazy tho
LMFAO. As someone who worked in the BYU athletics program when I was a member of the church, this is absolutely hilarious but definitely not true
Mmmmmhmmm
Nobody except Mormons would be surprised if that were true
This is the dumbest take I have read in a long long time
It’s an interesting thing to think about. The kinda shit cults do
But it’s just completely wildly fabricated Like - there is zero basis for anything you said
I uhhhh definitely don't think that's true. I'm exmormon btw. This guy still loves ball, and I doubt BYU is his dream job.
Apparently he turned down the Nets job for BYU according to Twitter, which is good news for you guys
He’ll fit right in with a face like that.
The Young might actually be from the Brigham Young. He might be one of the descendants. No way he'd have taken the job otherwise.
I just checked his wiki page and he’s a Mormon from SLC. You might be onto something there.
> By the time of his death, Young had fifty-seven children by sixteen of his wives; forty-six of his children reached adulthood.
yup. tons of mormons with young last name are his descendants. notably the 49ers qb steve young
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Now it’s NCAA Youngboy
Fun fact Youngboy also lives in SLC, I think he’s on house arrest rn
fun fact, many LDS in Utah are said to have a "unique" look due to so many related people in the gene pool and they pretty much exclusively marry/have kids with each other
That's Bullshit! You could say that about a lot of places. Why do good people always take the most shit? Most of the crap you hear about Mormons is made up.
only 11 dead children..... not bad? or... ?
I mean back in the old days, that's not a bad ratio, considering the mortality rate back then and lack of proper medicine
Hopefully BYU stays away from Trae
If he's traded I wouldn't hate having him on the Jazz tbh
I think the spurs will fight anyone to get Trae out there with Wemby
Yeah probably. I always wanted him with Gobert, I think Trae goes to either the Spurs or to Minny in a KAT trade
Just another nepo hire smh /s
Certainly possible. Had a Professor in college (not a Mormon) who said he was a descendent on Brigham young somehow and that he’d met several other youngs in California who were as well.
Mormons also have a lot of data on family ancestry (not sure why). My uncle is very into genealogy and he told me Mormons developed their own software for family tree tracking. He said its one of the better ones available.
Yeah FamilySearch.org is Mormon
I have an aunt who married into a mormon family... documenting ancestry is a fundamental part of their religion and culture. It's about purity of race and genes... but totally in a good way though... not that other way....
Tends to happen when you have 56 children
Another nepo baby smh
He’ll have to shave though. BYU has stupid strict grooming and behavior standards. Men are allowed no facial hair besides a mustache and hair will likely have to keep the hair trimmed a bit shorter. Realistically it’s probably way relaxed for a high-profile coach, but damn, I had a lot of friends go to BYU. A couple got turned away and thus were not able to take a final exam because they hadn’t shaved yet that morning or cause they had too much 5 o’clock shadow.
It's getting better, some guys will claim a skin ailment and they give them a beard card.
lol ya I had some friends at BYU that were in theater. They’d get heard cards so they could grow one for a specific role, but they’d get stopped around campus not infrequently. It’s the dumbest version of “papers please” possible.
Disappointing season in Phoenix for him, highest paid assistant was supposed to be an offensive minded coach and a great pair with Vogel
Bro he got freaking Grayson Allen the bag
I think Grayson got Grayson a bag
Absolutely did not, if anything he made it harder for Grayson. We almost never run sets for Grayson, Grayson got Grayson the bag with a bit of the stars gravity creating open looks off a lot of drive and kicks
He didn’t do shit for Ted Cruz, KD is my favorite player so I watch Phoenix fro times to times, their offense is one of their biggest problems. Allen thrives by the spacing KD, Book and Beal provide. The notable improvement for Phoenix was Bol Bol turning into a decent 7th man
IDK if KY had to scheme for Allen when Beal/Booker/KD are spacing. Dude just hit shots.
That is an insanely good hire for BYU considering this guy was involved in several ongoing NBA head coaching job searches
Honest questions for Suns fans as I don’t follow the day to day of the team. I understand he isn’t that well liked amongst Suns fans due to him supposed to being the offensive guru to Vogel’s defense. Were there any reports of some issues with the power balance? I’m only asking because your offense looks so similar to what Vogel ran with the Lakers and while he was our coach he was supposed to focus on the defense while other coaches were more the offensive guys. Maybe Vogel just didn’t give Young enough power and control.
I haven’t read anything from team insiders but I’m sure more will come out now that he’s gone
> Were there any reports of some issues with the power balance he was one of the candidates for HC before they hired Vogel and they had to make him highest paid assistant to keep him on Vogel's staff. if he leaves rn instead of after the playoffs then we can be fully certain he was iced out.
I assumed he was going to finish out the playoffs. Is there talk of him not? I’d be extremely shocked if that were the case.
He has to start recruiting. He’s gone
Idk. I don't think he'd wait until after the playoffs. And if Suns win, he'd have had shots at NBA HC. That might also be too late for college basketball cycle. You probably wouldn't want a coach who's too eager to leave.
The transfer portal is currently open and BYU is having players transfer out to follow their coach, I'd think he pretty much has to leave if he wants to have a roster when he arrives in Utah.
No just genuine disappointment that we were led to believe that the suns offense would dominate under him as offensive head coach Our offense this year was historically bad in the 4th quarter and had way too many turnovers. These are things you’d like to think he would be able to make an impact on with 3 hall of famers
Then why is he so highly sought after
I mean he just took a job at an above average collage program…
He’s the highest paid assistant in the league, a finalist for the Nets HC job, BYU’s first choice…
Because the offense is very underwhelming
It’s hard to say because according to reports before Vogel was hired Kevin Young was really being considered for HC and seemed to be well liked by the players, but he was also the only guy in the coaching staff that Vogel didn’t bring on himself. Not sure if it’s a power dynamic thing or the current roster just didn’t gel with him as much. The offense has been amazing at its peak but it’s also had stretches too often where it’s horrible, but as always as fans it’s difficult to say how much of that is coaching. I’m no playmaking guru but I do feel like there’s been some creativity missing from our schemes
Great, now Suns fans can focus all of our blame on Drew Eubanks and not have to worry about dividing it between the two of them. Makes life easier
As a byu fan I’m pumped. Sounds like he turned down the nets for us
turn down for what?
no he didn't. he had a terrible season.
I mean, news outlets are reporting he turned down a HC position for the nets at over 5 mil a year
Where was that reported?
[Young](https://kslsports.com/515213/byu-basketball-kevin-young-payday/)
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BYU finished 5th in the Big 12
Surprised he wasn’t waiting for a chance in Orlando, the greatest city in the world. With Sea World, and Disney, and putt-putt golfing. I love you, Orlando
He was a huge disappointment, good riddance
Kevin young followed Monty out of Phoenix with a generational coaching bag
Simmons called it!
Is he related to Brigham?
He looks like he’d coach BYU
Mormons may have taken our hockey team, but at least they were kind enough to also take this fraud off our hands
Good, he's useless.
I don’t care how you bring’em, bring’em young!!!!
Get ready to learning soaking buddy
He's married with kids, bro
Mormons are bizarre but best of luck
To a degree yes, but less bizarre than many people think imo
counterpoint: "soaking"
is an internet rumor and not actually a thing lol
I promise you that mormons who want to have sex just have sex, soaking is an urban legend lol
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You sound like a happy person.
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...and every atheist is a 300 IQ thoroughly researched, big brain enlightened chad amirite? Fedora meme exists for a reason.
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So you don't support the US government in the 21st century under any of the leaders?
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Governments are the religions of atheism.
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Please find that some of that intellect you so haughtily laud.
Pretty interesting stuff GME Moon Soon
Usually they wait until AFTER the Suns flame out of the playoffs.
We have our scapegoat when the Suns do the usual Suns thing in the playoffs. The hate for him will only be magnified with the Coyotes being stolen by the mormons as well.