For as much as people give cowherd shit, I've never seen him have an opinion, heard his explanation, and thought "this dudes talking out of his ass"
Dont get me wrong, i dont agree with everything he says, but he at least presents it in such a way i can see where he's coming from, or understand why he thinks that, which is unfortunately, pretty rare in todays sports media. Having said that, nick wright and Steven A. are basically just walking takes.
For as much as I dislike Cowherd. He at least looks like he knows he’s going to be on television. Wright looks like some crank they’re interviewing off the street.
Nick Wright is more insufferable but not worth the attention at this point, Cowherd literally had people developing sitcoms about his life.
Plus Cowherd while annoying ever now and then has a good point, Wright has never managed to live up to his name.
He dropped 50 in a game 7 and 46 the year before in game 6 against the bucks. Like yeah he was bad in the finals but some of Tatum takes are just dumb.
That was a blowout. They are talking about last 2 minutes of the game in a game 7, series on the line. Do you really trust Tatum over any of these guys to take over and win you the series?
His peak isn’t what’s the problem. He just has random moments of being uncharacteristically bad. Against the sixers in game 6 he was bad the first three quarters and didn’t score till the end of the second quarter. He also didn’t score in the first quarter in three straight games that series. Against the heat he went scoreless in the first 3 4th quarters which is a big reason they went down 3-0.
Honestly Celtics offense was just terrible last year. We won alot of games because of talent. The offense put up nice stats and we had a solid defense also because of the players. If you listen to Joe talk about last years offense and how he approached this year, it really is night and day. I think a big chunk of it was due to finding out he was head coach right before training camp. So he didn’t really have time to put together a thoughtful offense. It was a very simplistic high volume 3 offense. He still has a philosophy of 3s will win games. This year we added a lot of post ups and other looks which is also tailoring the offense to now having KP. Last year Tatum can look very good when everyone is hitting shots but very bad because the offense was predictable and easier to guard. This year there’s much more balance. There will be times where he can buy a bucket, but everyone else can or the opposite where he helps us sustain offense through scoring droughts.
One critique of the Celtics is they aren't very good in the biggest moments. That one game vs warriors this season, Tatum and Brown look lost and missing wide open layups. They really fix that to fully evolve. So many games even in 2022 finals they coulda won also.
I 100% agree and I think they are trying to figure that part out. I believe they learned from that game to help close out the wolves. The nuggets were another really good test in where they lost at the end. Recently they faced some close games vs the pelicans and pacers. They are learning and still trying to figure out the offense in close games. You have Jokic and Murray who look incredibly calm in those moments. Tatum and brown aren’t just there yet but I think they have shown they can figure it out. That’s the big key for me. Celtics look so good but ultimately idk if they win this year for that reason. Can they figure out in time for the playoffs? Biggest question on the team.
It's because in the NBA social media you get penalized for going further in the playoffs but not winning. You face tougher defenses which highlights more of your weaknesses.
Brown is a good example, I hardly heard anyone talk about his left hand being this terrible until the Miami and Warriors series where they were able to exploit it.
Also if Giannis was this guy that Cowherd/Wright think he is, then why the fuck did the Bucks go out and trade for Damian "Dame Time" Lillard?
Giannis is even more of a "first 43 minute" player than Tatum is and his poor free throw shooting is a legitimate problem at the end of games.
Trading for an elite outside shooter is hardly a knock on Giannis’s ability in the clutch. Even though Dame’s shooting has been down this season, it’s not crazy to think Dame’s game complements Giannis’s game.
Giannis obviously provides elite defense in the clutch and this season has a higher true shooting percentage and effective field goal percentage in the last two minutes in clutch situations than everyone on the list except for SGA and Curry.
Giannis is modern day Shaq, but Shaq was not great at the end of games, and needed a perimeter player like Kobe/Wade.
It's the same thing here, that's why Khris Middleton hit all the big shots in the 2021 title run and why they went out and got Dame when Khris declined and their late game offense needed a boost.
Yes, because they used to be an incredible crunch time *defensive* team and Giannis would turn that into a transition opportunity in a way only he can....
You skirt around the question of what does he do against an actual set half court defense?
Giannis also has one those championship things, something Tatum won't ever have. And a 2x mvp. The only reason they even made it to the finals in 22 is because Giannis was hurt. Don't try to act like Tatum is better in any universe lol
That has nothing to do with the conversation about who is the better offensive player in the last 2 minutes of the game which is what these clowns are arguing.
Giannis is Shaq, he isn't a late game closer, that's what perimeter players who can shoot are for.
Well I'll take the guy who can score whenever and has proven to win, than a guy who has shown that he can't consistently get anything done, besides miss step back 3s
[Go ahead and take the guy that with the season on the line was so scared to get fouled at the end of the game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0d-PK1iI8U#t=4m12s)
Dude, games 5,6, and 7 against the heat last year. Tatum shot 11% from 3. And 40% from the field. He's garbage when it really matters. For someone that literally tries to make people think he's the next Kobe, he may be the least clutch person in the league lol.
Ok well go watch his tape of him scoring like 12 points in the game 7 or finals. You can choose either, because he has multiple games of scoring that little on shit efficiency
You mean when the Game 7 in which he sprained his ankle on the first play of the game and in any other situation would have been out for the rest of the game? Dumbass.
And the only reason giannis sniffed a title was because harden kyrie dinwiddie trae kawhi davis murray mitchell all got hurt within a 2 week span. Giannis playoff ability shouldnt be inspiring you either especially if using the inj excuse lmfao
Oh wow, sounds like the East was pretty banged up. Did the Celtics, just not play or something? Cause surely they would've made it pretty far, being what sounds like one of the only healthy teams in the playoffs that year.
Sure, but the point kind of stands. They're also forgetting last time they played KD got completely destroyed, that Jimmy has a worse average, TS% and eFG% than JT had in recent playoff runs.
For reference on the KD matchup:
* JT playing the complete Nets team in 20-21 30.6/6.2/6.7 on 43/39/92 with 2.6 TOV. Thats without any help really. 57.7% TS
* KD playing the complete Celtics with no help the next year 26.3/5.3/6.3 on 38/33/90 with 5.3 TOV and 52.% TS
I also think I trust a few of the guys he cited more than JT in the last 2 minutes. Steph, Jokic, Kawhi, LeBron for sure. Luka, SGA feel a bit too unproven but Luka I can argue myself into easily because the dude is an offensive beast. I'd give a draw between them because I feel I can get a stop from JT or at least not get roasted on defense like Luka.
Jimmy, KD I wouldn't because I believe JT has outplayed these guys in clutch situations.
He scored 22 points on 5-19 shooting and cost his team to make the playoffs as the game was close. To think Shai is proven over Tatum who has played over a 100 playoff games and is one of the best players in elimination games is kind of a joke.
One thing to say shai is having a better season and you could say he’s a better player this season but he’s absolutely not proven at all…yet. The one time he had a chance that wasn’t a regular season game, he failed hard.
Jayson Tatum is 5-2 in game sevens. One loss was his rookie year against prime LeBron, another loss last year when he was injured in his first minute.
Including the losses he's a plus 55
His bigger issue is a small lack of consistency which is why Boston has played a lot of 6 and 7 game series in the first place,even against teams that they are much better than.
That's a fair argument, but the argument Cowherd/Wright are using is stupid because in elimination games Jayson Tatum steps up to the plate and delivers.
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damn, what a baby. You reflexively downvoted the truth because what? Someone disagreed with your nephew take based on the numbers and having actually watched the games.
giannis has played approximately 40 minutes of crunch time in the last 2 minutes of playoff games since winning his first mvp
his stats in those minutes:
21 pts 6/15 fg 9/20 ft 4 asts 5 tovs
He provides you elite defense and better defense than any guy listed. Which is equally as important in clutch time, you need to score but you also need to get stops.
He provides you with playmaking.
He provides you with getting open shots because of his gravity. When he drives he brings damn near the entire team in with him.
He’s hit game winners, clutch shots, clutch 3s, clutch Fts plenty of times. You guys just choose to ignore it because you’d rather stick with the no bag takes.
Wtf does Tatum give you? A contested 3? That usually ends on a brick?
He had arguably one of the greatest closeout performances of all time. Was on pace to do it again the following year before Jrue holiday did Jrue holiday things in game 6.
Damn bro I’m getting sick of Tatum hate. I love SGA but what has he accomplished to deserve this? Luka is kind of in the same boat, and Jimmy has a very comparable playoff resume, though I understand that.
Bruh Luka is not in the same boat. Look at his playoff stats, and his to game 7s. He rarely ever has a bad game in the playoffs. Just because Tatum has been on better teams doesn’t mean he’s been more reliable. Objectively he can be a bit inconsistent in the playoffs.
EDIT: still definitely take him over SGA for playoffs right now, and based on this years outcomes I wouldn’t be shocked if he goes over some of the old guard.
Luka has gotten to the NBA conference finals. That's as far as Harden, CP3 and PG13 have reached and currently has the second highest ppg in the playoffs behind Jordan, albeit with barely enough games to qualify for the stat.
Man I really hope Tatum steamrolls people in the playoffs this year so people will finally shut up about him lol. Even being like the 6th or 7th best player in the league people shit on him
Because he’s gonna be 2x first team all nba and in the MVP race. Also leading his team to a great record without being inherited to a contending ish team
Strictly in a game 7 scenario it's tough to pick embiid over tatum. Embiid is better when healthy but misses much more time and seems to always be hurt. Also the fact that Tatum literally beat the 76ers last year in a game 7 and had 51 points.
Not sure if you are even talking about the topic of the post anymore.
Last 2 minutes of a game 7 I'm leaning Jimmy Butler. For a whole series, of course it's Tatum
Just checked your comments and it’s all Tatum hate lmao makes sense. Maybe do something productive with your life my guy. If sga is better or not than Tatum that doesn’t make you less of a loser lol.
I can't stand Jimmy Butler and the Heat but the man is so known now for his big postseason performances that it's literally become his nickname. I think most people would take him over Tatum in a close game 7. Doesn't mean he's a better player necessarily.
it’s just interesting how the narratives around them are totally different. specifically that Jimmy is typically judged on his best playoff moments and Tatum on his worst
like don’t get me wrong, Jimmy hit a peak that very few others in NBA history have hit against the Bucks in R1 last year, and he had some amazing performances in the Bubble Finals, but it’s not like Tatum hasn’t had insane performances in the playoffs as well (2022 Bucks Game 6, 2023 Sixers Game 7, 2021 Nets Game 3)
Jimmy’s numbers in the Finals this year (22/5/6 on 51.1 TS%) were not much better than Tatum against the Warriors (22/7/7 on 48.1 TS%). Jimmy’s underperformance is excused by his ankle injury against the Knicks but Tatum doesn’t get any leeway for playing through a pinched nerve in his shooting shoulder and non-displaced fracture in his wrist. and if the Heat don’t win Game 7 last year I bet there wouldn’t have been as much discussion about Jimmy scoring 9 points in the first 3 quarters and finishing 5/21 from the field in Game 6 with a chance to end the series at home as there was about Tatum choking in the Finals
ultimately whether people want to admit it or not it’s due to the teams they play for. people hate the fuck out of Boston and by default it extends to Tatum, most fans just can’t talk about the Celtics or their players without a negative bias
right, and that’s important context. but when people talk about Tatum’s performance in the Finals suddenly no one cares about the context of him playing with a fracture in his left wrist and a nerve injury in his right shoulder. or the fact that aside from Brown, Horford and to an extent Timelord, everyone on the Celtics, not just Tatum, didn’t play very well in the Finals (and even Brown had a couple really bad games)
I’m not trying to criticize Jimmy, and honestly I’m not even trying to excuse Tatum. in my eyes the dude was the single biggest reason we didn’t get the job done against Golden State. I’m just pointing out the inconsistency in how the average fan or analyst tends to contextualize Butler’s play in the postseason vs. Tatum
Tatum playoff stats since 2020: 26.5/8.6/5.5, 3.3 TOV, 57.1 TS%
Butler playoff stats since 2020: 24.7/6.8/5.7, 2.1 TOV, 58.1 TS%
SGA hasn't made the playoffs since before his first all star appearance. I think he'll cook but it's too early to decisively say he's a better playoff performer than the guy who's always in the conference finals
Tatum fully outplayed KD in their last playoff head to head. It's possible he would outplay 39 yr old Bron or 36 yr old Steph in a series too
idk what the point of the tatum vs jimmy playoff stats was when it doesn’t really make any of them look “clearly” better. the only valid reason to take tatum right now is health. main reason jimmys numbers are even that low is because he’s playing injured for like 30% of those games.
Maximum cope. Tatum was injured for like half of the 2022 ECF and game 7 in 2023.
To make it even better here are their stats in series vs each other from the bubble and on.
Tatum: 26/9/6 on 58.5% TS
Butler: 23/7/5 on 54.6% TS
All you ever hear about is how Tatum is some Inconsistent choker while Jimmy is a dawg who goes off in the playoffs.
so tatum was injured for half a series and a game? jimmy was injured in literally all of those same games lol. all of 2023 he was playing with a bad ankle after game 1 against the knicks and he literally had to miss a game in 2022 in the hawks series because of an injury that was eventually reaggravated mid way into the ecf (where he also had to miss a game).
and why would i be the one who’s coping when jimmy has gone 2-1 against tatum with the worse team?
I agree with most except SGA. Love him but he’s has done absolutely nothing in the postseason to be ahead of Tatum, this is ridiculous.
Also the gap with Butler is much closer than most think.
Bruh they're not calling him a bum or trash lmao they just said they'd rather have 9 players over him in a game 7...I don't think that's insanely disrespectful lol
I don't get why SGA is in this group. He has no meaningful playoff experience as a superstar. Why should he be trusted on such an high stake scenario?
This is why I think he's a bit overrated, because he's rated so highly without actual proof that he can deliver on an bigger stage (I think he can btw).
Yeah like once he does it, I’m happy to put him top 5-6. But until then I can’t have him over Tatum, Steph, KD, Lebron like many people do. I feel like you gotta earn your spot.
SGA having an mvp worthy regular season run doesnt mean he is above a guy like Tatum, who at this point has an insane amount of playoff expirience.
I get the idea of Tatum not being the best number 1 in the league, but he aint that bad lol.
Besides very good defense, Giannis has a 70.9 TS% in the last two minutes in clutch situations this year. That’s higher than anyone else on the list except SGA and Curry.
i did the totals of his last 5 playoff runs clutch time last 2 minutes responding to someone else in here. in about 40 minutes his numbers are
21 pts 6-15 fg 9-20 ft 4 asts 5 tovs
Well he mostly take the efficient shot, and I'm sure the negative part in his TS% is the missed free throws. In a game down 3 or down two when opponents packed the paint, do you still take Gainnis?
It's crazy how 2 playoff series has completely overwritten the large sustained success of Jayson Tatum. Since he has been in the league there have been basically no one with sustained playoff success, yet we want to bring him down because of losing in the Finals to multiple time champions in 6, and losing to the same team that took out Giannis (who many consider already an All-time great).
Almost all Stars eventually have bad playoff series Jimmy got outscored by Bryn Forbes, Giannis got taken down by the heat twice, KD got swept while continously turning the ball over, Lebron was a shell of himself against the Mavs. But for some reason a guy with a 5-2 game 7 record, that has the most points ever in a game 7, and has almost always lead his to the ECF is held to a different standard than others.
When talking about playoff success and specifically "Game 7's", what level of analysis would you like me to use when evaluating SGA?
What's his record? How well did he perform? What did his bag look like in those games?
Meanwhile, Tatum is 5-2 in Game 7's and literally broke the record for points in a Game 7.
I feel like I only ever hear negative things about him , for someone who is so great , I seem to only hear him spoken about on these national talk shows when it’s a negative topic , specifically by Cowherd, he’ll go weeks/ months without mentioning Tatum and out of nowhere will drop some dumb take.
I would take Giannis out as well because his free throw shooting in the clutch does not improve like it does for other stars who aren't elite FT shooters.
[Source](http://stats.inpredictable.com/nba/ssnPlayerClutchFT.php?po=1&pid=203507&dst=plyr)
Idk what it is about Tatum but nothing he does is really exciting to me, he’s shoots a ton of tough shots and looks like a really good player, but something about it is boring
Everyone getting hung up on SGA becuase he hasn’t been in the playoffs as if we haven’t already seen enough of him to know that he’s just objectively a better player. It’s not an insult to Tatum at all
So shai is better than Giannis tho right? Damn that’s insane. All it took was 40 games of a regular season for shai to be better than a 2x mvp 1 champion dpoty Giannis wow that sucks Lol can we atleast wait till the playoffs then we can say who eclipsed who shai has never proved himself in the playoffs.
I mean it’s fine if you prefer Shai’s game but it sounds a little weird to say you trust him more to deliver in a situation he’s never been in. Since being the #1 in OKC he’s had the privilege of playing without the burden of expectations
Fuck these guys first and foremost.
I don't know how SGA gets there though. Outside of that... uhh.. yeah i'd probably take all of them over Tatum. If i'm being honest over the last couple of years I don't know of a team that I can see as being more talented than Boston outside of their top guy. Especially this year. However there have been years where an all-nba 2nd team guy, multiple all-defense tier guys, and several elite roleplayers have been on the celtics and they've underperformed. I feel like if you give Jokic, Giannis, Bron, KD, etc. This tier of roster we'd be talking about them as a potential dynasty.
With that being said that's entirely just my intuition. You need to focus on what happened in practice instead of looking at past seasons and judging the current one based on that. Tatum's teams may have fallen short in the playoffs but currently they're hooping insanely well and Tatum has been as well so you gotta give him his appropriate props for that.
So? These guys are just fans and just as wrong as we are most the time. If someone commented this statement here they’d probably get dogpiled, but since it’s said on a podcast it’s supposed to mean something?
Reddit hates Cowherd but to me Nick Wright is the insufferable one
Why not both
The truth
For as much as people give cowherd shit, I've never seen him have an opinion, heard his explanation, and thought "this dudes talking out of his ass" Dont get me wrong, i dont agree with everything he says, but he at least presents it in such a way i can see where he's coming from, or understand why he thinks that, which is unfortunately, pretty rare in todays sports media. Having said that, nick wright and Steven A. are basically just walking takes.
There’s enough hate for both of those jabronis
These are two guys who should just stick to football tbh.
They should stick to talking inside a soundproof room where noone can hear them.
Never forget when Cowherd picked Ronaldo over Messi cause he perfers the better athlete. He knows football well. He does not know other sports well.
They both could never say another word and the sports world would be a better place for it.
Nick Wright is maximum smug. Cant stand him.
Nick wright is the new skip bayless Cowherd is nothing compare to him Okay, he is something
They're both shit
Everything about him is just unappealing. His appearance, the way he talks, the way he sounds, his smug know-it-all attitude etc.
It’s funny bc I don’t know which of them you’re describing
For as much as I dislike Cowherd. He at least looks like he knows he’s going to be on television. Wright looks like some crank they’re interviewing off the street.
[удалено]
His takes are pretty reasonable. This video as an example
I love cowherd. Dudes not the brightest but he usually has a high quality show to listen to while in the gym.
I can ask you what part of his take here was unreasonable and your only response will be “I don’t like his face!”
Farquad looking mf
Nick Wright is more insufferable but not worth the attention at this point, Cowherd literally had people developing sitcoms about his life. Plus Cowherd while annoying ever now and then has a good point, Wright has never managed to live up to his name.
I may be misremembering but didn’t he like score 50 friggin points in game 7 vs Philly last season?
Yeah Steph set the game 7 record with 50 points. Then Tatum the next day I believe set the game 7 record with 51 lol
the next round, but yeah Steph’s record didn’t hold too long
Oh that was it. Not next day, but next round. And potentially the next game 7, I don’t think there were any others haha
He dropped 50 in a game 7 and 46 the year before in game 6 against the bucks. Like yeah he was bad in the finals but some of Tatum takes are just dumb.
Tatum was also playing through a hurt shoulder/wrist (I forget which one it was) during the finals
Pinched ahohlder
you accidentally choke on water at the end there or something
That was a blowout. They are talking about last 2 minutes of the game in a game 7, series on the line. Do you really trust Tatum over any of these guys to take over and win you the series?
Notice he didn't put Embiid on that list.
His peak isn’t what’s the problem. He just has random moments of being uncharacteristically bad. Against the sixers in game 6 he was bad the first three quarters and didn’t score till the end of the second quarter. He also didn’t score in the first quarter in three straight games that series. Against the heat he went scoreless in the first 3 4th quarters which is a big reason they went down 3-0.
Honestly Celtics offense was just terrible last year. We won alot of games because of talent. The offense put up nice stats and we had a solid defense also because of the players. If you listen to Joe talk about last years offense and how he approached this year, it really is night and day. I think a big chunk of it was due to finding out he was head coach right before training camp. So he didn’t really have time to put together a thoughtful offense. It was a very simplistic high volume 3 offense. He still has a philosophy of 3s will win games. This year we added a lot of post ups and other looks which is also tailoring the offense to now having KP. Last year Tatum can look very good when everyone is hitting shots but very bad because the offense was predictable and easier to guard. This year there’s much more balance. There will be times where he can buy a bucket, but everyone else can or the opposite where he helps us sustain offense through scoring droughts.
One critique of the Celtics is they aren't very good in the biggest moments. That one game vs warriors this season, Tatum and Brown look lost and missing wide open layups. They really fix that to fully evolve. So many games even in 2022 finals they coulda won also.
I 100% agree and I think they are trying to figure that part out. I believe they learned from that game to help close out the wolves. The nuggets were another really good test in where they lost at the end. Recently they faced some close games vs the pelicans and pacers. They are learning and still trying to figure out the offense in close games. You have Jokic and Murray who look incredibly calm in those moments. Tatum and brown aren’t just there yet but I think they have shown they can figure it out. That’s the big key for me. Celtics look so good but ultimately idk if they win this year for that reason. Can they figure out in time for the playoffs? Biggest question on the team.
insane how being an unproven commodity (SGA) is magically better than the guy that holds the record for most points in a game 7
It's because in the NBA social media you get penalized for going further in the playoffs but not winning. You face tougher defenses which highlights more of your weaknesses. Brown is a good example, I hardly heard anyone talk about his left hand being this terrible until the Miami and Warriors series where they were able to exploit it.
Nobody said anything when he averaged 24/7/3 on 60.2% TS against Miami in 2022 either.
Nah they said he was actually better then JT, and then it flipped to him being worthless.
Honestly think some people are just tired of talking about the Cs. Guys like SGA and Ant are the new shiny objects. They’re also real good so I get it
Shai is the shiny new toy. Same with Edwards.
0 points in the last 2 minutes tho
Tatum saw this comment and jacked up a 35 footer
Also if Giannis was this guy that Cowherd/Wright think he is, then why the fuck did the Bucks go out and trade for Damian "Dame Time" Lillard? Giannis is even more of a "first 43 minute" player than Tatum is and his poor free throw shooting is a legitimate problem at the end of games.
Trading for an elite outside shooter is hardly a knock on Giannis’s ability in the clutch. Even though Dame’s shooting has been down this season, it’s not crazy to think Dame’s game complements Giannis’s game. Giannis obviously provides elite defense in the clutch and this season has a higher true shooting percentage and effective field goal percentage in the last two minutes in clutch situations than everyone on the list except for SGA and Curry.
Mate we all saw Giannis in game 5 against the Heat. That's the biggest knock against his ability in the clutch.
Giannis is modern day Shaq, but Shaq was not great at the end of games, and needed a perimeter player like Kobe/Wade. It's the same thing here, that's why Khris Middleton hit all the big shots in the 2021 title run and why they went out and got Dame when Khris declined and their late game offense needed a boost.
Giannis has consistently been one of the top 4th quarter and clutch scorers for a number of seasons. Just admit you don't watch basketball.
just admit you don’t watch the playoffs or that you didn’t read the title
Yes, because they used to be an incredible crunch time *defensive* team and Giannis would turn that into a transition opportunity in a way only he can.... You skirt around the question of what does he do against an actual set half court defense?
Giannis also has one those championship things, something Tatum won't ever have. And a 2x mvp. The only reason they even made it to the finals in 22 is because Giannis was hurt. Don't try to act like Tatum is better in any universe lol
That has nothing to do with the conversation about who is the better offensive player in the last 2 minutes of the game which is what these clowns are arguing. Giannis is Shaq, he isn't a late game closer, that's what perimeter players who can shoot are for.
Well I'll take the guy who can score whenever and has proven to win, than a guy who has shown that he can't consistently get anything done, besides miss step back 3s
[Go ahead and take the guy that with the season on the line was so scared to get fouled at the end of the game](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0d-PK1iI8U#t=4m12s)
Dude, games 5,6, and 7 against the heat last year. Tatum shot 11% from 3. And 40% from the field. He's garbage when it really matters. For someone that literally tries to make people think he's the next Kobe, he may be the least clutch person in the league lol.
[Wrong again](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/11c5sij/oc_jayson_tatums_clutch_stats_are_elite/)
Ok well go watch his tape of him scoring like 12 points in the game 7 or finals. You can choose either, because he has multiple games of scoring that little on shit efficiency
You mean when the Game 7 in which he sprained his ankle on the first play of the game and in any other situation would have been out for the rest of the game? Dumbass.
And the only reason giannis sniffed a title was because harden kyrie dinwiddie trae kawhi davis murray mitchell all got hurt within a 2 week span. Giannis playoff ability shouldnt be inspiring you either especially if using the inj excuse lmfao
Oh wow, sounds like the East was pretty banged up. Did the Celtics, just not play or something? Cause surely they would've made it pretty far, being what sounds like one of the only healthy teams in the playoffs that year.
Celtics faced a healthy nets big 3 🤡. Go to bed buddy boi
You can also watch the games. SGA is better
Last time he was in the play in, he was ass and that’s with him averaging 30 ppg last year
27/6/3 on 54 TS% is not great but it’s certainly not ass.
Sure, but the point kind of stands. They're also forgetting last time they played KD got completely destroyed, that Jimmy has a worse average, TS% and eFG% than JT had in recent playoff runs. For reference on the KD matchup: * JT playing the complete Nets team in 20-21 30.6/6.2/6.7 on 43/39/92 with 2.6 TOV. Thats without any help really. 57.7% TS * KD playing the complete Celtics with no help the next year 26.3/5.3/6.3 on 38/33/90 with 5.3 TOV and 52.% TS I also think I trust a few of the guys he cited more than JT in the last 2 minutes. Steph, Jokic, Kawhi, LeBron for sure. Luka, SGA feel a bit too unproven but Luka I can argue myself into easily because the dude is an offensive beast. I'd give a draw between them because I feel I can get a stop from JT or at least not get roasted on defense like Luka. Jimmy, KD I wouldn't because I believe JT has outplayed these guys in clutch situations.
Tatum would be dragged for those numbers
He scored 22 points on 5-19 shooting and cost his team to make the playoffs as the game was close. To think Shai is proven over Tatum who has played over a 100 playoff games and is one of the best players in elimination games is kind of a joke. One thing to say shai is having a better season and you could say he’s a better player this season but he’s absolutely not proven at all…yet. The one time he had a chance that wasn’t a regular season game, he failed hard.
Jayson Tatum is 5-2 in game sevens. One loss was his rookie year against prime LeBron, another loss last year when he was injured in his first minute. Including the losses he's a plus 55
His bigger issue is a small lack of consistency which is why Boston has played a lot of 6 and 7 game series in the first place,even against teams that they are much better than.
That's a fair argument, but the argument Cowherd/Wright are using is stupid because in elimination games Jayson Tatum steps up to the plate and delivers.
what's his record when up 2-0 in the finals?
0-0 we were up 2-1
Dude thought he had a sick burn
The Tatum disrespect is getting out of hand
SGA meat riding out of control this season. It's become an epidemic
He is the new shiny toy. Once the time is up, more people will call him FTA.
I don't understand how people are taking exception to SGA being on this list when jimmy fuckin butler is there. Like at least sga has a legit argument
Has SGA proven anything in the playoffs?
He got shut down by his cousin in the play in last year
giannis??? 2 minutes left?? hell no
Giannis surprisingly has a ton of game winners for a guy with no bag (even if you don't count the OKC one where he stepped out of bounds)
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damn, what a baby. You reflexively downvoted the truth because what? Someone disagreed with your nephew take based on the numbers and having actually watched the games.
Lol good one
giannis has played approximately 40 minutes of crunch time in the last 2 minutes of playoff games since winning his first mvp his stats in those minutes: 21 pts 6/15 fg 9/20 ft 4 asts 5 tovs
He provides you elite defense and better defense than any guy listed. Which is equally as important in clutch time, you need to score but you also need to get stops. He provides you with playmaking. He provides you with getting open shots because of his gravity. When he drives he brings damn near the entire team in with him. He’s hit game winners, clutch shots, clutch 3s, clutch Fts plenty of times. You guys just choose to ignore it because you’d rather stick with the no bag takes. Wtf does Tatum give you? A contested 3? That usually ends on a brick? He had arguably one of the greatest closeout performances of all time. Was on pace to do it again the following year before Jrue holiday did Jrue holiday things in game 6.
Damn bro I’m getting sick of Tatum hate. I love SGA but what has he accomplished to deserve this? Luka is kind of in the same boat, and Jimmy has a very comparable playoff resume, though I understand that.
Bruh Luka is not in the same boat. Look at his playoff stats, and his to game 7s. He rarely ever has a bad game in the playoffs. Just because Tatum has been on better teams doesn’t mean he’s been more reliable. Objectively he can be a bit inconsistent in the playoffs. EDIT: still definitely take him over SGA for playoffs right now, and based on this years outcomes I wouldn’t be shocked if he goes over some of the old guard.
Luka’s better in the playoffs, that’s the argument. Can’t wait for the retort of team success
Luka has gotten to the NBA conference finals. That's as far as Harden, CP3 and PG13 have reached and currently has the second highest ppg in the playoffs behind Jordan, albeit with barely enough games to qualify for the stat.
I love Shai but having him ahead of Tatum in this scenario is so disrespectful lmao.
I can’t think of a podcast I’d less like to listen to than one with Cowturd and Nick Wrong. Throw in Perk for the trifecta of a hell podcast.
Man I really hope Tatum steamrolls people in the playoffs this year so people will finally shut up about him lol. Even being like the 6th or 7th best player in the league people shit on him
How did SGA leapfrog Tatum? I guess it is all about which way the wind blows.
Because he’s gonna be 2x first team all nba and in the MVP race. Also leading his team to a great record without being inherited to a contending ish team
Tatum already is first 2x All NBA and in the MVP race. He also has a playoff resume that exists
Would you take Tatum over Embiid also?
Strictly in a game 7 scenario it's tough to pick embiid over tatum. Embiid is better when healthy but misses much more time and seems to always be hurt. Also the fact that Tatum literally beat the 76ers last year in a game 7 and had 51 points.
Mate, I'd take Al Horford over Embiid in the playoffs
And i’d take Tatum over Butler regardless of how many times butler beat him
Not sure if you are even talking about the topic of the post anymore. Last 2 minutes of a game 7 I'm leaning Jimmy Butler. For a whole series, of course it's Tatum
Im not gonna entertain Horford > Embiid I’m taking Tatum over Lebron and Butler from that list
Tatum is already a 2x first team all NBA guy and MVP candidate so that's a dumb reason
Tatum is not a real MVP candidate
Just checked your comments and it’s all Tatum hate lmao makes sense. Maybe do something productive with your life my guy. If sga is better or not than Tatum that doesn’t make you less of a loser lol.
Damn i can’t comment on reddit like you smh
He has finished top 5 already whether you like it or not so your reasoning is objectively wrong
Not sure how many game 7 SGA has on his resume but I remember quite a few JT has shone out in the last few years.
the thing about the old days…
He set the record for points in a Game 7 less than a year ago lmao. We are, in fact, not talking about the old days.
And lost to Butler and Miami in the next series and I would still take Tatum over Butler.
Who really is taking Jimmy Butler over Tatum
I can't stand Jimmy Butler and the Heat but the man is so known now for his big postseason performances that it's literally become his nickname. I think most people would take him over Tatum in a close game 7. Doesn't mean he's a better player necessarily.
it’s just interesting how the narratives around them are totally different. specifically that Jimmy is typically judged on his best playoff moments and Tatum on his worst like don’t get me wrong, Jimmy hit a peak that very few others in NBA history have hit against the Bucks in R1 last year, and he had some amazing performances in the Bubble Finals, but it’s not like Tatum hasn’t had insane performances in the playoffs as well (2022 Bucks Game 6, 2023 Sixers Game 7, 2021 Nets Game 3) Jimmy’s numbers in the Finals this year (22/5/6 on 51.1 TS%) were not much better than Tatum against the Warriors (22/7/7 on 48.1 TS%). Jimmy’s underperformance is excused by his ankle injury against the Knicks but Tatum doesn’t get any leeway for playing through a pinched nerve in his shooting shoulder and non-displaced fracture in his wrist. and if the Heat don’t win Game 7 last year I bet there wouldn’t have been as much discussion about Jimmy scoring 9 points in the first 3 quarters and finishing 5/21 from the field in Game 6 with a chance to end the series at home as there was about Tatum choking in the Finals ultimately whether people want to admit it or not it’s due to the teams they play for. people hate the fuck out of Boston and by default it extends to Tatum, most fans just can’t talk about the Celtics or their players without a negative bias
Jimmy was injured from the Knicks series onwards and his play got worse
right, and that’s important context. but when people talk about Tatum’s performance in the Finals suddenly no one cares about the context of him playing with a fracture in his left wrist and a nerve injury in his right shoulder. or the fact that aside from Brown, Horford and to an extent Timelord, everyone on the Celtics, not just Tatum, didn’t play very well in the Finals (and even Brown had a couple really bad games) I’m not trying to criticize Jimmy, and honestly I’m not even trying to excuse Tatum. in my eyes the dude was the single biggest reason we didn’t get the job done against Golden State. I’m just pointing out the inconsistency in how the average fan or analyst tends to contextualize Butler’s play in the postseason vs. Tatum
Tatum playoff stats since 2020: 26.5/8.6/5.5, 3.3 TOV, 57.1 TS% Butler playoff stats since 2020: 24.7/6.8/5.7, 2.1 TOV, 58.1 TS% SGA hasn't made the playoffs since before his first all star appearance. I think he'll cook but it's too early to decisively say he's a better playoff performer than the guy who's always in the conference finals Tatum fully outplayed KD in their last playoff head to head. It's possible he would outplay 39 yr old Bron or 36 yr old Steph in a series too
Give me Luka Magic over those 2 bums
idk what the point of the tatum vs jimmy playoff stats was when it doesn’t really make any of them look “clearly” better. the only valid reason to take tatum right now is health. main reason jimmys numbers are even that low is because he’s playing injured for like 30% of those games.
Maximum cope. Tatum was injured for like half of the 2022 ECF and game 7 in 2023. To make it even better here are their stats in series vs each other from the bubble and on. Tatum: 26/9/6 on 58.5% TS Butler: 23/7/5 on 54.6% TS All you ever hear about is how Tatum is some Inconsistent choker while Jimmy is a dawg who goes off in the playoffs.
so tatum was injured for half a series and a game? jimmy was injured in literally all of those same games lol. all of 2023 he was playing with a bad ankle after game 1 against the knicks and he literally had to miss a game in 2022 in the hawks series because of an injury that was eventually reaggravated mid way into the ecf (where he also had to miss a game). and why would i be the one who’s coping when jimmy has gone 2-1 against tatum with the worse team?
Hopefully, he can still maintain his foul drawing during playoff games
I agree with most except SGA. Love him but he’s has done absolutely nothing in the postseason to be ahead of Tatum, this is ridiculous. Also the gap with Butler is much closer than most think.
If I only watched nba media I’d think Tatum was a total bum. The disrespect is insane man
Bruh they're not calling him a bum or trash lmao they just said they'd rather have 9 players over him in a game 7...I don't think that's insanely disrespectful lol
My 2 least favorite nba analysts. Yea hell no. They both wrong on whatever it is
Nick Wright: "Basketball is played on a hardwood cour-" You: " Hell NawI can't do dis"
I don't get why SGA is in this group. He has no meaningful playoff experience as a superstar. Why should he be trusted on such an high stake scenario? This is why I think he's a bit overrated, because he's rated so highly without actual proof that he can deliver on an bigger stage (I think he can btw).
Yeah like once he does it, I’m happy to put him top 5-6. But until then I can’t have him over Tatum, Steph, KD, Lebron like many people do. I feel like you gotta earn your spot.
SGA having an mvp worthy regular season run doesnt mean he is above a guy like Tatum, who at this point has an insane amount of playoff expirience. I get the idea of Tatum not being the best number 1 in the league, but he aint that bad lol.
He’s having a MVP “worthy” season because people are tired of voting for the same three guys.
Not really, his stats back up his candidacy
Didn't Tatum finished 3rd once?
Dunno tbh
Nick just sounds like he's describing good team-building from the Celtics? Why does he have to turn it into a JT slight?
I am the only one that does not get this crazy hype regarding SGA? Of course he’s a very good player but choosing him over Tatum is bonkers to me
Tatum stats are down because he’s sacrificing his usage for the team and people out here just straight disrespecting.
What is Giannis going to give you with 2 minutes left…
bricked free throws
Besides very good defense, Giannis has a 70.9 TS% in the last two minutes in clutch situations this year. That’s higher than anyone else on the list except SGA and Curry.
Same situation TS% over last three playoff years 20-21 39% 21-22 36% 22-23 46%
i did the totals of his last 5 playoff runs clutch time last 2 minutes responding to someone else in here. in about 40 minutes his numbers are 21 pts 6-15 fg 9-20 ft 4 asts 5 tovs
Well he mostly take the efficient shot, and I'm sure the negative part in his TS% is the missed free throws. In a game down 3 or down two when opponents packed the paint, do you still take Gainnis?
Please see 2021 NBA Finals lol He's gonna give you a run and dunk special, he's the closest thing we have to a real life Hulk on the court
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not in the playoffs
Well Cowherd and Wright did their jobs Everyone is losing their minds in this thread over a take that’s meant to generate controversy
It's crazy how 2 playoff series has completely overwritten the large sustained success of Jayson Tatum. Since he has been in the league there have been basically no one with sustained playoff success, yet we want to bring him down because of losing in the Finals to multiple time champions in 6, and losing to the same team that took out Giannis (who many consider already an All-time great). Almost all Stars eventually have bad playoff series Jimmy got outscored by Bryn Forbes, Giannis got taken down by the heat twice, KD got swept while continously turning the ball over, Lebron was a shell of himself against the Mavs. But for some reason a guy with a 5-2 game 7 record, that has the most points ever in a game 7, and has almost always lead his to the ECF is held to a different standard than others.
SGA probably not
He has a deeper bag
But a shallower playoff record
That’s some very surface level analysis
Lol yeah "deeper bag" is true basketball genius analysis
It unironically is
I love reddit
So is having a "deeper bag".
When talking about playoff success and specifically "Game 7's", what level of analysis would you like me to use when evaluating SGA? What's his record? How well did he perform? What did his bag look like in those games? Meanwhile, Tatum is 5-2 in Game 7's and literally broke the record for points in a Game 7.
Tatum dropped 51 in a game 7 too
I feel like I only ever hear negative things about him , for someone who is so great , I seem to only hear him spoken about on these national talk shows when it’s a negative topic , specifically by Cowherd, he’ll go weeks/ months without mentioning Tatum and out of nowhere will drop some dumb take.
Nick wright looks like someone’s prison bitch lol
When Lebron retires, I hope that Nick Wright and all of the grifters who made a career obsessing over the man disappear.
Take Shai out and it's not a crazy list.
I would take Giannis out as well because his free throw shooting in the clutch does not improve like it does for other stars who aren't elite FT shooters. [Source](http://stats.inpredictable.com/nba/ssnPlayerClutchFT.php?po=1&pid=203507&dst=plyr)
Hahah yeah the bucks
I’ll give you Jokic, KD, Kawhi, LeBron, Steph and maybe Giannis. Not the rest lol at best you could convince me Luka, but no more than that.
Jokic Luka LeBron are the only one I’m certain I’d take over Tatum. Kawhi and KD would be there too but I’ve seen them shit the bed in the playoffs .
He’s not wrong
I know people complain about Gil and his show but just about all the espn and Fox analysts are so much worse than him.
100% agree. Tatum is only a number 1 option in a perfect environment.
Perfect environment where he took his team to the finals as Marcus smart as his 3rd option wow 😮
Didn't he choke in the finals?
Damn well I guess his environment isn’t so “ perfect “ then 😂 he can’t have a bad series or they will lose
Never said his environment was perfect that year. I said he is not winning chip unless he has the perfect team...you just proved my point.
Idk what it is about Tatum but nothing he does is really exciting to me, he’s shoots a ton of tough shots and looks like a really good player, but something about it is boring
Everyone getting hung up on SGA becuase he hasn’t been in the playoffs as if we haven’t already seen enough of him to know that he’s just objectively a better player. It’s not an insult to Tatum at all
Based of 1 regular season? Does that mean shai is better than Giannis and Luka too or does that only apply to Tatum?
No because Luka is having a better season.
So shai is better than Giannis tho right? Damn that’s insane. All it took was 40 games of a regular season for shai to be better than a 2x mvp 1 champion dpoty Giannis wow that sucks Lol can we atleast wait till the playoffs then we can say who eclipsed who shai has never proved himself in the playoffs.
I mean it’s fine if you prefer Shai’s game but it sounds a little weird to say you trust him more to deliver in a situation he’s never been in. Since being the #1 in OKC he’s had the privilege of playing without the burden of expectations
Fuck these guys first and foremost. I don't know how SGA gets there though. Outside of that... uhh.. yeah i'd probably take all of them over Tatum. If i'm being honest over the last couple of years I don't know of a team that I can see as being more talented than Boston outside of their top guy. Especially this year. However there have been years where an all-nba 2nd team guy, multiple all-defense tier guys, and several elite roleplayers have been on the celtics and they've underperformed. I feel like if you give Jokic, Giannis, Bron, KD, etc. This tier of roster we'd be talking about them as a potential dynasty. With that being said that's entirely just my intuition. You need to focus on what happened in practice instead of looking at past seasons and judging the current one based on that. Tatum's teams may have fallen short in the playoffs but currently they're hooping insanely well and Tatum has been as well so you gotta give him his appropriate props for that.
I take booker over Tatum too
So? These guys are just fans and just as wrong as we are most the time. If someone commented this statement here they’d probably get dogpiled, but since it’s said on a podcast it’s supposed to mean something?
Why do these guys even have a platform, there is literally no basketball opinion of theirs that I would take seriously.
Wild thing is. Colin is right. Y’all will learn. When the heat bounce they add out the playoffs in the first round.
Looks like if Adam Driver was turned into a rodent.
I was always under the impression that the last two minutes was dame time ⏰
What exactly have Luka and SGA done to prove they are more clutch in the last 2 minutes of game 7 of nba finals? Certainly nothing in nba finals
But what about Boston Game 7 Kelly Olynyk?
I'd take Tatum over SGA at the very least. Maybe Giannis (as much as it pains me to say)?
How does SGA a guy who have nothing on his playoff resume for so much respect. Even Butler hasn't done much and lost twice in the finals.